View Full Version : Jack Straw
percy toboggan
05-Oct-06, 18:29
What a refreshing change.
A politician says what most of the rest of us really think.
Let's hope it's the start of a trend and the pendulum of Islamification is halted.
willowbankbear
05-Oct-06, 18:39
Go on , tell us, what did he say?
percy toboggan
05-Oct-06, 18:44
Go on , tell us, what did he say?
Nothing outrageous. You will hear soon enough.
willowbankbear
05-Oct-06, 18:50
Not unless you tell me pal, I dont watch news on tv much, baby likes Bear in the big blue house or something like that:D
j4bberw0ck
05-Oct-06, 18:53
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5410472.stm
whenever i have had a muslim customer who is wearing their hijab they have been more than happy to remove with veil, without being asked to.
i dont understand why people have a problem with them wearing their veils and outfits. I think it is nicer seeing someone covered up than some girls i have seen out who are to put it nicely- hanging out and not much to the imagination
percy toboggan
05-Oct-06, 19:03
whenever i have had a muslim customer who is wearing the full gear (sorry forgotten what it is called) they have been more than happy to remove with veil, without being asked to.
i dont understand why people have a problem with them wearing their veils and outfits. I think it is nicer seeing someone covered up than some girls i have seen out who are to put it nicely- hanging out and not much to the imagination
I have no problem with hijabs or headscarves. The full on head bag, with just a slit for eyes is as alien to Britian as it is disconcerting to many British. Masked men were once regarded as outlaws. Why do some now regard masked women as a benign and sober representation of religion? In their country of origin fair enough. In their homes here fair enough. Not on the street though in my opinion, much less in face to face negotiation.
In Reading i have seen a handful of woman wearing the full outfit inculding the eye slits head scarf. Reading is very multi religious and multi cultured, no one really bats and eyelid to it.
percy toboggan
05-Oct-06, 19:21
In Reading i have seen a handful of woman wearing the full outfit inculding the eye slits head scarf. Reading is very multi religious and multi cultured, no one really bats and eyelid to it.
Reading, sadly has recently experienced night time unrest aimed at Muslims I understand. Nearby Windsor has seen a muslim owned dairy petrol bombed this week. To nip this kind of behaviour in the bud we need more integration and much less concentration on obvious differences & superficial items like facial blankets.
by sister lives in bradford and had to put her children to a catholic school so they could get a british education, by this i mean little things like assembly and nativity, she recently got a letter from the school board saying that chritmass cards will only be aloud in school if they say happy hollidays, she works in a bennifit office and has to wear long sleaves and trousers at all times so not to offend. My point here is it seems ok to ask those of a chritian background to make compromises but no one else without being called raciest.
honestly i think the man is an idiot for what he has said.
his reasoning is that it is because it makes him feel uncomfortable.
does he stop to think how it may make the women he is demanding take their head dress off feel?
how would you feel if you were in a foreign country where as is their custum.. (now purley theoretic here *grins*) the custum is for women to go toppless in public.. and some male official asked you to take your shirt and bra off because you made him uncomfortable?
would you then be saying .. oh humm that is reasonable..
i wouldnt..
if we are to respect any cultures . then we need to respect all cultures..
as long as it is not harmfull or dangerous..
percy toboggan
06-Oct-06, 16:29
honestly i think the man is an idiot for what he has said.
his reasoning is that it is because it makes him feel uncomfortable.
does he stop to think how it may make the women he is demanding take their head dress off feel?
how would you feel if you were in a foreign country where as is their custum.. (now purley theoretic here *grins*) the custum is for women to go toppless in public.. and some male official asked you to take your shirt and bra off because you made him uncomfortable?
would you then be saying .. oh humm that is reasonable..
i wouldnt..
if we are to respect any cultures . then we need to respect all cultures..
as long as it is not harmfull or dangerous..
This is quite the most ridiculous analagy/comparison.
Absolute drivel.
i could be wrong but from the reports i have seen/heard he has never demanded, only requested and he has always had another woman in the room with him at the time. I somehow don't think that he would ask them to leave if they declined either
percy toboggan
06-Oct-06, 16:52
i could be wrong but from the reports i have seen/heard he has never demanded, only requested and he has always had another woman in the room with him at the time. I somehow don't think that he would ask them to leave if they declined either
He has now widened out his stance and said he'd rather muslim women would not wear the veil - the 'niqab' - on the street. Overwhelmingly supported by Engish public opinion on the airwaves today.
I have been dying to post on this subject for a while, but felt that the recent hulabaloo with regard to religious subject matter would preclude posting on the subject.
I have no issue with regard to jihab or anyother kind of religious dress as long as it is the FREE CHOICE of the person wearing it to do so. I think that Jack Straw is trying to drive up his popularity using a subject that is near and dear to many conservative UK citizens, and not so much his worry at being able to efficiently communicate with Muslim women.
Now what really bothers me on this subject, and that is probably a little off the direction of this thread is the total double standards going on in this country. Fiona Bruce is not allowed to wear a crucifix on TV. A Polish celtic player is not allowed bless himself before a game. If you are Cristian or Catholic manifestations of your religion are offensive. If you are of other denominations manifestations of your religion are an unalienable right.
Another related subject that bothers me is if fire fighters object to hand out fire information in a gay parade where they will be objectified as sexual objects they are punished. If a Muslim Policeman objects to guarding the Isreali embassy, he will be excused ( I honestly don't believe he was removed for reasons of health and safety after risk assesment. I believe that he did have the right to ask not to be placed on that duty, after all we are all human, but if you treat one case with the sensitivity it merits, you have to teat the other with the same atitude).
I have no issue with public manifestations of difference, be it religious or any other nature. What I hate is the double standard.
Too many bleeding heart liberals in this country. Perhaps its time for the silent majority to be more vorciferous in demanding their "rights"
northener
06-Oct-06, 20:28
Brandy, I don't think you're reflecting on what Jack Straw actually said.
The point he was making is that it is very difficult to communicate with people wearing veils as you cannot read facial expressions. Any effective communicator will tell you we watch peoples faces when we speak to them to gauge their mood and reactions and, understandably, it is difficult to establish a dialogue with someone who, when met face to face ( pardon the pun), if you cannot 'read' their face. This is why a lot of people struggle to talk to strangers on the telephone, they cannot guage how the conversation is being received and act accordingly.
Jack Straw was actually talking about how to overcome divides in multi ethnic communities where difficulties with communication are already present and expressing his opinion that the full veil made it difficult for non muslims to communicate as they see veils as a physical barrier to communication.
In western society, as was pointed out in an earlier post, covering your face is treated with suspicion as we assume the person has something to hide. This is because we have been brought up with different perceptions of what is acceptable behaviour and what is not. It does not make for easy relationships but most of the time we seem to trundle along quite nicely.
I don't buy into this 'lets all throw up our hands in mock horror and blather on about peoples rights' scenario we are in. He said what he said from a common sense standpoint. If people cannot see the facts for hyperbole then really they ought to leave serious subjects alone and go and play with their Care Bears.
BTW i was brought up in Huddersfield, a town that has had a huge Asian (muslim) community from the sixties onwards and to be honest, apart from a few idiotic bigots, there were never any real problems but trying to talk to the women was virtually impossible.
My brother in law is a copper on Manningham Lane in Bradford and boy, could he tell you some stories about how the idiotic few always manage to stir up the pooh on the back of a discussion like this.
This country has gone politically correctness mad! If I went anywhere wearing a bandana wrapped round my face I would probably be apprehended by the police, and quite rightly so. Why should different rules apply to anyone else.
We should bear in mind that this countrys religion is by constitution Christian. Immigrants and others who wish to express different religous views should do so with due discretion and respect as we would in a place of different constitution.
Many shopping centres now require 'hoodies' to uncover their faces on entry; do they apply the same rules to others who disguise their features?
Well done Jack Straw for making a statement of common sense.
Well said Kenimac1.
Respect is a two way street.
Glad for your sake you have disabled reputation on your profile!
The PC brigade must be sitting on the sidelines sharpening their claws as we speak
I think that the problem with Jack Straw's opinion is that he feels that muslim women who wear the veil are marginalising themselves from Western society. Perhaps this is true but the majority of these women (according to a Muslim baroness on radio 4 - tuned in by accident, not trying to make out I'm an intellectual) do not have a voice in their community, either through spousal oppression, or general cultural isolation. She felt that by pointing out their separateness, Jack Straw was marginalising and emphasising their difference even more. She was angry because she felt that this could lead to a backlash against these women, especially as they are so obvious to society in general. I tend to agree with her.
I see on tonight's Newsnight that one of the veil wearers who were being interviewed had the tell-tale signs of really bad acne on her face. So when she said that it was her decision to wear the veil then I can see how she came to that decision.
He He glad to see your back i missed your posts
percy toboggan
06-Oct-06, 23:25
Perhaps this is true but the majority of these women (according to a Muslim baroness on radio 4 - tuned in by accident, not trying to make out I'm an intellectual) do not have a voice in their community, either through spousal oppression, or general cultural isolation. .
You don't have to be an 'intellectual' to tune in regularly to Radio 4. You just need a receptive brain and a willingness to absorb and sometimes learn. I also fit into this category. Maybe you will tune in regularly. Much better than 5 (radio mate) or the appalling Radio 1 - grew out of that by 23. Noel Edmonds doing breakfast was the final straw!!! Wogans allright but he don't do politickin' :) Sadly I can't get radio wick, or a northern alternative:~(
just to clarify what i have said.
in some cultures it is absolutly taboo for a male out side of a womans immideate family.. ie husband father.. to see her face.
it is shamfull and insulting.
i know for some it is very hard to understand this concept but there are times we have to try.
i remember a program. the search for the afghan girl.
it was the one where national geographics had taken pics in the 80's was it?
and there was a pic of the 13 year old.. with the most beautiful green eyes.
well years later they went to find her again.
after seemingly endless searching they found her.. and they had to meet with her husband father and several other male relatives.. she refused to come out.. and only after loads of persuasion and gentle talks would she even consent to be in the same room with them.
much less take her hood off.
so you can see how shocking and harmful it can be for some women.
i do agree whole hearted that every religion and faith should be embraced as far as showing relics prayers and what not.
not to be able to show your faith without prosecution is a horrible thing and something in this day and age that we should be pass.
j4bberw0ck
07-Oct-06, 08:38
and they had to meet with her husband father and several other male relatives.. she refused to come out.. and only after loads of persuasion and gentle talks would she even consent to be in the same room with them.
much less take her hood off.
so you can see how shocking and harmful it can be for some women.
And all that's fine as far as it goes. Works in Afghanistan, where it ranks as normal behaviour, and society and attitudes are culturally aligned.
It does not work here, and does not rank as culturally normal behaviour. Hence Straw's point (which I believe you may have missed) that it's divisive and discourages integration.
The major weakness in his argument (though he was only referring to Muslim women wearing veils, admittedly) is that I might - and do, actually - regard people who have heavy tattooing and wear lots of metalwork in their faces (and elsewhere, quite often) as social deviants. It's hard to draw the line between this and self-harm, and arguably the people who do it need psychological treatment. It's divisive because many people feel as I do and so the tattooed and pierced are to some extent marginalised and discriminated against for many jobs.
So, if Muslim women should be encouraged not to wear veils for the sake of society and integration, should people be encouraged not to be tattooed and pierced, for the sake of society?
And I suspect that old veiled Muslim women will be easier on the eye and less ridiculous than an old woman or man not wearing a veil but carrying a face full of studs and some lovely, faded, smudged coloured smears that used to be tattooes.......
Naefearjustbeer
07-Oct-06, 09:13
If you are going to live in a foreign country would you not try to fit in with there customs and laws? I know I would. So anyone coming to this country should do the same. The problem is that so many areas have all muslims living together making it a no go area for non muslims. Folk of all races colours and religions should be integrated together not herded together in one race groups where they can build mini pakistans and indias in our cities. Howver I dont think Jack Straw has the right to demand that you do not wear your traditional dress, It is part of your identity which you should be allowed to hold onto. After all would we Scots like it if we were told that our traditions were no longer allowed.
j4bberw0ck
07-Oct-06, 09:21
That's the point, NFJB; Scots traditions are culturally normal here, just like wearing of veils is normal - in Afghanistan.
I agree that there should be an absolute requirement that people coming to live in this country should be able to speak English upon entry, and should agree to abide by the laws of the UK, not the beliefs of another country.
I'd disagree that people are herded together, as you put it. They naturally tend to settle amongst their own, whether white, black or any other shade.
Naefearjustbeer
07-Oct-06, 09:26
That's the point, NFJB; Scots traditions are culturally normal here, just like wearing of veils is normal - in Afghanistan.
I agree that there should be an absolute requirement that people coming to live in this country should be able to speak English upon entry, and should agree to abide by the laws of the UK, not the beliefs of another country.
I'd disagree that people are herded together, as you put it. They naturally tend to settle amongst their own, whether white, black or any other shade.
If you arrive looking for a home and the council home you then they have put where they want you. This is what causes the herding not every person that moves into the UK purchases a house so they do not have the same choice. Keeping races close together encourages racism on both sides of the colour divide. We dont mix with them and it imediately creates a problem.
The major weakness in his argument (though he was only referring to Muslim women wearing veils, admittedly) is that I might - and do, actually - regard people who have heavy tattooing and wear lots of metalwork in their faces (and elsewhere, quite often) as social deviants. It's hard to draw the line between this and self-harm, and arguably the people who do it need psychological treatment. It's divisive because many people feel as I do and so the tattooed and pierced are to some extent marginalised and discriminated against for many jobs.
How can you say someone with tattoos needs psychological treatment? Thats a bit of a bold statement to make. Personally, I have 3 tattoos - not that you would know it if you saw me - and I would like to think I was level-headed. I am proud of my tattoos and have never & will never regret them. In fact, I intend to get 2 more done, but only once I find something I like and that is significant to me.
Once I have the other 2 done, you would still not know to look at me - unless I choose to put them on show, but I do not feel that I need psychological treatment (or not because I got tattoos anyway :lol:).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you a 'biker'. In some peoples opinion, that carries a 'thuggish' image as with tattoos - sometimes the 2 go hand in hand.
changilass
07-Oct-06, 09:37
Taking a totally different tack here, but is wearing a veil with total face covering, not discrimination against deaf and dumb folk who lip read, I know it annoys the hell out of my mother in law when she is watching tv and can't understand what is being said.
A little different maybe but what about all the fuss about the american boy that couldn't wear a kilt as his school wouldn't allow it there was an internet petition etc all also featured here, is it not the same thing as these women being allowed to make their choice on whether they wear their traditional dress?
A little different maybe but what about all the fuss about the american boy that couldn't wear a kilt as his school wouldn't allow it there was an internet petition etc all also featured here, is it not the same thing as these women being allowed to make their choice on whether they wear their traditional dress?
I fear we're not comparing like with like here. Jack Straw has not said that veils should be banned, he's openly and honestly said that he feels communication would be better if he could see the person he's communicating with, hence he asks Muslim women who attend his surgeries, if they would mind removing their veils, he doesn't tell them to remove the veils - crucial difference. Controversial, but I agree with him. As a previous poster has commented, a large proportion of communication is non-verbal, and this cannot be taken into account when a persons face is disguised/hidden. How often has there been incidents on the Org, where someone's words have been mis-interpretted behind a monitor?
I have the deepest respect for each persons relgious choices, and have no wish to change them, but I'll stand up and admit that I'd feel uncomfortable talking face to face with a veiled woman (man or child) - what are they thinking; are they just saying that they agree; are they being sarcastic? These are questions which can often be answered when a face is on view, but often not, when we cannot see facial expression.
It's a sad day, when a person cannot stand up and admit to such a thing, without being deemed racist. It's not about race or religion, it's about human nature.
I accept that many women will not wish to remove their veils in such situations, and those who chose to stay veiled must accept that their thoughts and views may be open to mis-interpretation.
well explained wee burd I get the issue now, and yes I can see the point in what he is saying.
firstly changilass, i lip read a little because my hearing aint to hot and yes it does bug me when i cant make out whats going on because all i can see is eyes
secondly since when has piercing and tattos made you in anyway mentally unstable?! its a far cry from self harm. just my opinion but possesing piercings and a sound mind it seems an awful strong statement to make
I agree that there should be an absolute requirement that people coming to live in this country should be able to speak English upon entry, and should agree to abide by the laws of the UK, not the beliefs of another country.
I agree with you to a degree here, but in practice it would be quite hard to do.
My main thought to it is the people who come to the UK seeking asylum from other countries, for the people who are fleeing the persicution etc they are not exactly goign to have time to study english first.
It would be hard enough having to leave yor home etc behind but then to be told to stop practicing your relgion or beliefs that you have done your whole life seems almost cruel.
j4bberw0ck
07-Oct-06, 14:18
Personally, I have 3 tattoos - not that you would know it if you saw me - and I would like to think I was level-headed.
That's why I deliberately said "heavy tattooing" and further underlined it with "wearing lots of metalwork in their faces". Personal eccentricities are fine! Self-harming needs treatment.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you a 'biker'. In some peoples opinion, that carries a 'thuggish' image as with tattoos - sometimes the 2 go hand in hand.
Oh yeah, thuggish, me.:lol: My mid-life crisis wasn't severe enough to warrant having a Harley Davidson. I think if you saw me tootling round you'd not form the conclusion that I'm a thug. In the same way as if I saw you wandering down the street I wouldn't have any reason to conclude that you were into masochism and self-harm!
My main thought to it is the people who come to the UK seeking asylum from other countries, for the people who are fleeing the persicution etc they are not exactly goign to have time to study english first.
It's a fair point you make, and I acknowledge it.
It would be hard enough having to leave yor home etc behind but then to be told to stop practicing your relgion or beliefs that you have done your whole life seems almost cruel.
I don't think anyone's said anything about stopping practising a religion. I think it's about "when in Rome, do as the Romans do" - in other words, the price of being in the country is firstly adopting practices acceptable to the host country (like no arranged marriages, no female circumcision, no "honour" killings and possibly, no veils) whilst maintaining religious belief. The problem with religious belief (dare I say this?) is that religious leaders - and Islam seems to have any number of them who have authority to "interpret" the Koran and whose word is then effectively law - insist on interpreting it as though they were still living in a cave somewhere, being shot at by the Russians.
j4bberw0ck
07-Oct-06, 14:24
Henry, a slight aside, but you did mention bikers. I like this:
http://www.livingbyit.com
It's a company well in touch with its customers, and their aspirations to be thought of as being capable of all the things they say in the video....
I saw a guy in Inverness trying to pay for his petrol and he had a motorbike helmet on. They wouldn't take his money because he wouldn't remove his helmet - his point was if it was something to do with religion he wouldn't have to remove it. I felt really sorry for him I think his point was valid!
Dreadnought
07-Oct-06, 14:37
In a Radio Five Live phone poll 90% agreed with Jack straw.
J4abberw0ck,I would say that once I have my 2 tattoos done then I would be relatively highly tattooed - I would say with about 50% of my back covered.
My point about you being a biker was that I feel its wrong to stereotype people. It wasn't a personal opinion of you - I had hoped to sit my bike test last year, but finances didn't allow it. Therefore, I would be a thuggish person needing therapy, but only if my back was on show :lol:
Max, I would say well done to the cashier for insisting they remove a biker helmet - most petrol stations clearly state that helmets should be removed and I would have thought that any biker with any respect for the cashier should have done so without argument. Whose to say the biker wasn't a would be robber who didn't want to show his face?
Whose to say the biker wasn't a female with a veil under the helmet anyway and he had the cash in his hand to pay the cashier so I hardly think he was going to rob her! I'm sorry henry20 but he wasn't a robber and if a muslim lady goes in with a veil over her face is that what we all have to think!
For the record I agree with Jack Staw!
Personally, I think it would be a clever robber (there probably aren't many around) that handed over £10 for fuel and made off with £1000. I understand your comparison though and its difficult where religion is concerned - as the woman with a veil has to offend someone, be it the cashier or her family.
A biker with nothing to hide should have no objection, although his question is still valid.
IMO I think Jack Straw is right to ask for the removal of the scarves whilst in his office. But in saying that I also have the opinion that he was doing this for political kudos,trying to score points at this time.
Also IMO I cannot see why the need for this type of Muslim dress code in our westernised country. You rarely see Turkish females wearing Muslim dress, and Turkey is as Muslim as Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan. Again IMO Mustafa Kamal Ataturk was the most forward looking Muslim leader of any country I know. His reforms has made Turkey a fine country not perfect but fine never the less.
j4bberw0ck
07-Oct-06, 15:40
J4abberw0ck,I would say that once I have my 2 tattoos done then I would be relatively highly tattooed - I would say with about 50% of my back covered.
Henry, I'm in no way having a go at you (just to make it clear). Let me reiterate - I said heavily tattooed - the sort of thing you see on trailers for Miami Ink, or Orange County Choppers. Also, I linked it to facial piercings, so a key factor here is public visibility. That's why I picked the whole activity to contrast with veil wearing. If a Muslim woman wants to wear a veil in the privacy of her bedroom, hey, no probs. If you want to have a tattoo of whatever size and whatever subject that's visible only in the privacy of your bedroom, hey - terrific! I still question the motives for large tattoos but it's not an issue for me if I can't see them (same with veils).
A biker with nothing to hide should have no objection, although his question is still valid.
In a world desperately short of courtesy I would say that it's common courtesy which demands the removal of a full-face helmet before trying to talk to anyone. I have a flip-front and at the very least, open the front; but from there it's 2 seconds to take the thing off anyway.
The biker insisting that the helmet be treated like an item of religious significance is way up a gum tree and his question is just an attempt to look clever and intimidate the cashier. Courtesy costs nothing at best, and very little at worst, so for heaven's sake, bikers should remove helmets before approaching anyone else. In a cash-handling situation there are usually signs on the door requiring bikers to remove them anyway to make raids more difficult - not to do it is to put the cashier in an intimidating position and he or she should simply call the police. The same could apply to veils. How would I, as a cashier, know whether it was a man or a woman under there?
If you want to have a tattoo of whatever size and whatever subject that's visible only in the privacy of your bedroom, hey - terrific!
j4bberw0ck, I'll show you mine if you show me yours! Just don't tell the husband :lol:
IMO I think Jack Straw is right to ask for the removal of the scarves whilst in his office. But in saying that I also have the opinion that he was doing this for political kudos,trying to score points at this time.
Also IMO I cannont see why the need for this type of Muslim dress code in our westernised country. You rarely see Turkish females wearing Muslim dress, and Turkey is as Muslim as Saudi Arabia of Afghanistan. Again IMO Mustafa Kamal Ataturk was the most forward looking Muslim leader of any country I know. His reforms has made Turkey a fine country not perfect but fine never the less.
Can I just say that I agree with you totally!
( IMO surely these days it is possible to follow a religion without having to wear the uniform...its not as if the men have to!)
I agree that there should be an absolute requirement that people coming to live in this country should be able to speak English upon entry, ...That's impractical. Think of someone who comes to work in this country and speaks English, but his/her spouse and children know very little English. This is very common. Many or most of our foreign employees are in this position.
And what about Brits going abroad to work? Should other contries have the same restrictions? Think of workers in the oil industry in Norway, the Middle East, West Africa, the former Soviet Union, Venezuela, etc. A bit closer to home, I know lots of scientists who've gone to work in Germany, the Netherlands, Italy, Spain, Switzerland, Israel and Japan. Most spoke little or none of those countries' languages when they went - should they have stayed at home or been restricted to the US, Canada or Australia?
Perhaps you're thinking of immigrants who come to the UK looking for a job. That's slightly different but your requirement was "absolute". What about genuine asylum seekers?
j4bberw0ck
07-Oct-06, 18:59
That's impractical.
Yeah, I know. Acknowledged it above, too, when Fluff pointed it out. Maybe a touch of brain in first gear, mouth / keyboard digits in fifth; it happens sometimes. But the Danes manage a version of it, and the Dutch; a period of time is allowed before having to pass an exam in the host language to demonstrate at least a basic command of the vocabulary and grammar. They also don't teach kids in any language other than the host language (except for the obvious - foreign language lessons).
There are some examples of good practice we can learn from. And it has been established that one way in which certain immigrant groups exercise control over their families (ie wives / daughters / sisters) is by allowing them access only to people from the same culture so they never learn the host language.
But now, I must away for (coincidentally) a curry. A proper one, cooked from the basic spices by an expert (I'm told). And Mrs J is driving home so a few cooling pivos may be allowed to slip down my curried gullet.
For shame.......... :lol::lol:
j4bberw0ck
07-Oct-06, 19:02
j4bberw0ck, I'll show you mine if you show me yours! Just don't tell the husband
:lol: or Mrs J........... :eek:
Will I keep my helmet on?
oldmarine
07-Oct-06, 19:57
What a refreshing change.
A politician says what most of the rest of us really think.
Let's hope it's the start of a trend and the pendulum of Islamification is halted.
It takes a brave politician to make such a statement in a community where many of his constituants are of the Islamification. If they are elgible to vote, Jack Straw could definitely be at a disadvantage. This article appeared in major newspapers across the country (USA) including those cities where large numbers of the Islamic nations choose to dwell. They may feel comfortable living in large numbers, but I am sure where their numbers are not so large they may not feel so secure.
percy toboggan
07-Oct-06, 21:35
It takes a brave politician to make such a statement in a community where many of his constituants are of the Islamification. If they are elgible to vote, Jack Straw could definitely be at a disadvantage. This article appeared in major newspapers across the country (USA) including those cities where large numbers of the Islamic nations choose to dwell. They may feel comfortable living in large numbers, but I am sure where their numbers are not so large they may not feel so secure.
If they were prepared to bend a little and just wear a hijab then they would probably feel more at home. So would I. The sight of several of these women together, draped head to toe in black with slits for eyes is alienating and disconcerting for many westerners whether they like it or not.
What will possibly happen now here is that more muslim women will wear the niqab just to wind people up. This whole festering subject will rumble on for years.
changilass
07-Oct-06, 22:35
Did anyone else hear the comments made by a young muslim man on the news about why they won't integrate into our society - I am fizzing, he has done more harm to relationships than anything any politician may say[disgust]
Did anyone else hear the comments made by a young muslim man on the news about why they won't integrate into our society - I am fizzing, he has done more harm to relationships than anything any politician may say[disgust]
Never heard, Changilass?
Yes I heard it too changilass and was amazed by the sheer bigotry.
Like wise I agree that that young man's ill concieved remarks will have done more harm that any debaate about whether a Muslim woman should be veiled.
and the Dutch; a period of time is allowed before having to pass an exam in the host language to demonstrate at least a basic command of the vocabulary and grammar. They also don't teach kids in any language other than the host language (except for the obvious - foreign language lessons).
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There are schools that teach in foreign languages (Schools that function in foreign tongues to the respective country) in both Denmark and Holland. I have lived in both and my sister frequented an english school in the second, just for general info. That does not mean they did not learn dutch ( or Danish for that matter, but to tell you the truth, it's a darned difficult language.)
How can you say someone with tattoos needs psychological treatment? Thats a bit of a bold statement to make. Personally, I have 3 tattoos - not that you would know it if you saw me - and I would like to think I was level-headed. I am proud of my tattoos and have never & will never regret them. In fact, I intend to get 2 more done, but only once I find something I like and that is significant to me.
Once I have the other 2 done, you would still not know to look at me - unless I choose to put them on show, but I do not feel that I need psychological treatment (or not because I got tattoos anyway :lol:).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you a 'biker'. In some peoples opinion, that carries a 'thuggish' image as with tattoos - sometimes the 2 go hand in hand.
A Biker!?!?!
I've seen him drinking beer,too!
Wooo-ooooo-Hooooo! The man's a regular Outlaw!
Get a grip, man.
How the heck did tattoos get into this thread?
My only reservation about a veiled woman is that she becomes a target for the bigots that infest this world.
Not so long ago in the street where I have my business a lady in full Muslim attire pushing a pushchair with a toddler at her side was surrounded by a group of young men who proceeded to hurl abuse at her and to block her way.
Needless to say both myself and another shopkeeper intervened,NO woman deserves that sort of treatment when she is walking the street and causing no offence.
Saddly I do not have any muslims amongst my acquaintance as in view of the current thinking they have become almost isolated.
Now here is pause for thought the other shopkeeper that went to her defence is a Jew.
I have my reservevations about the full Muslim dress and the fact that so many who follow that have health problems, i.e vitamin d deficiency due to the lack of exposure to the sun.
The dress code may be fine for a country where the temps hit 30C plus but in a cool climate the need to cover up becomes a little less relevant.
At the end of the day. I suspect that the lady has no other wish than to enjoy a happy marriage, give her children the best that she can and to live in peace.
Saddly I do not have any muslims amongst my acquaintance as in view of the current thinking they have become almost isolated.
Lizz a very good point there. How many of us have any Muslim acquaintances? I will bet very few of us.
In Leith there are many Muslims and Muslim run businesses but sad to say I have not many acquaintances.
On the other hand there is an influx of Eastern European persons arriving here in the last few months and IMO they have integrated with the Scottish community more than the Muslims. They speak to you at bus stops and are generally more polite, there is a new Polish community here now with cafes restaurants and deli shops opening every week. English in Easter Road is no longer the main language, we are a truly cosmopolitan community now.
I would be very surprised if any of us could go to an Islamic country and wear whatever we want and expect a christian school and have the government and local authorities ban their religious symbols on account that they may offend me.I think the pc brigade have done much more to harm relations between societies in this country.The papers have alot to answer for as well if you read the headlines they should have a duty to report the truth and not mislead.
There was another story recently about a conservative (councillor I think)who wrote an internal email between himself and someone else about the new ludicrous rules and regulations and had a bit of a joke as to what Noah would have to do under the same circumstances.Such as planning permission then went on to say that he would probably have to accept animals of the same sex. To which every gay rights group were up in arms and this guy then resigned it was also suggested that he should be MADE to attend equality meetings or whatever they are called, that is the part that I have a real problem with.For it to be suggested that people should be taught to think the "right" way is quite scary.
I would like to think this country allows me to express opinions as I wish,and not force me to attend correction meetings if I say something people do not agree with. (sorry on a bit of a rant now)
Why is it illegal to kill muslims?
Muslims are under an obligation to kill infidels.
This is a war and for once Scotland, England and the rest of Christianity are united?
For more information type chemical warfare into google.
Why is it illegal to kill muslims?
Muslims are under an obligation to kill infidels.
This is a war and for once Scotland, England and the rest of Christianity are united?
For more information type chemical warfare into google.
From what you right, one can only infer that all muslims are intefada crazed evil people and christians good and righteous. It must be great to know all the answers and always be right.
But then this was probably a post intended to incense people, so I'll put it where it belongs at the bottom of a midden.
percy toboggan
09-Oct-06, 16:59
English in Easter Road is no longer the main language, we are a truly cosmopolitan community now.
I was enjoying your post until I read this bit. I see nothing to celebrate in this, unless perhaps there has been a rennaissance for the gaelic. I do not want to visit, much less live in any part of Britain where Urdu, Swahili, Serbo-Croat. Polish or any other tongue foreign to these islands predominates over English. Thank you very much.
Oh, God, we're off again. Muslims! A threat to our civilization, to our country and impolite into the bargain. This thread is simply puerile drivel. This time I am not going to be lured into participating.
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