View Full Version : I Predict A Riot (apologies to Kaiser Chiefs)
Yet another deadline has passed, and the fate of the residents living in Dale Farm remains in the balance;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-14748540
T (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-14748540)his saga has been going on for 10 years and still has not been resolved.
If the site is a Greenfield Site (disputed by travellers) then you could say that council & residents are in the right for wanting what they call an eyesore to be removed.
The travellers however, say that this site is a brown field area and used to be a scrap metal yard.
It has been reported that the residents of Dale Farm have been joined by Catholic and Protestant Bishops, a Hollywood actress and various other Civil Liberties groups, both main stream and those who would prefer a more "direct" approach.
Given that planning permission has been granted to a number (just under half) of the "houses" built on Dale Farm, should the Council refrain from the planned evictions?
Given the past history between the residents of Dale Farm and their neighbours, is the scene set for a a final showdown?
....... have been joined by Catholic and Protestant Bishops, a Hollywood actress and various otherHmmm, sure this isn't the latest CBB?
To me , it's a strange one.
Why was planning permission granted if the site is illegal........
Nonetheless, I feel for the landowner and nearby residents. I wouldn't want travellers in my back garden. Having said that, if they've been there 10 years are they really travellers?
I also have no understanding why bishops should give more weight to the argument than believers in the tooth fairy or the Loch Ness monster.
orkneycadian
02-Sep-11, 07:06
If it does (lead to a riot) then it will be just a repeat of the other recent lawlessness with folk thinking that in this day and age, they can do what they please without recrimination, whether that be breaching planning regulations, or smashing a window to grab a telly. And if you don't get what you want, set fire to a police car! At most, you'll get a caution, for if you were to get charged with anything more, the civil liberty mob and do gooders will kick up a fuss and get the charges dropped!
And folk wonder why Britain is broken..... :roll:
John Little
02-Sep-11, 08:04
Tell the rabble to be quiet, we anticipate a riot.
This common crowd, is much too loud.
Tell the mob who sing your song that they are fools and they are wrong.
They are a curse. They should disperse.
Quite simply, they knew they didn't have planning permission when they moved in and started building, and now they are having problems because they don't have planning permission for permanent residencies. So we should treat them no differently to people like Robert Fidler (who built a house sans planning permission and kept it hidden behind hay bails). If we give in and let them stay, then it opens up the planning system for abuse by people with the money to just be stubborn for as long as it takes for the planning dept to give in.
Breaking the law for 10 years and using lots of free legal services to drag the process out doesn't mean that they deserve to be let off. The rest of us would have had our homes bulldozed by now and the council would have billed us for it. Letting them off simply means that they go out and buy some more greenbelt land knowing that it has no planning permission and then repeating the process of sub-dividing it and selling it on to other travellers again.
Also I should inform the jackbooted authorities that Anfield is trying to start a riot.
Signs indeed of a broken Britain. If the 'travellers' behaviour was illegal why was this not challenged ten years ago? If it was how many 'appeals' were they allowed? It seems to me that if you break the law you can get Legal Aid to fund as many appeals as you like and drag the process on forever whether its an illegal campsite or illegal entry to the country. How does that work? Am I wrong in thinking that those who flout the law can access whole rafts of support while the ordinary law-abiding citizen gets mugged into paying for it all?
Little wonder resentment and bitterness abound.
They have to live somewhere. What do the council want the land for? Presumably the Scrapyard had PP so anything should be an improvement to the local amenity.
If the council had any sense (very unlikely) they would grant retro planning consent then the problem would go away.
John Little
02-Sep-11, 09:09
Okay - I'll bite.
It appears that the majority at Dale farm are Irish Travellers. Foreign nationals.
One could think they could live in Eire...
NickInTheNorth
02-Sep-11, 09:09
They have to live somewhere. What do the council want the land for? Presumably the Scrapyard had PP so anything should be an improvement to the local amenity.
If the council had any sense (very unlikely) they would grant retro planning consent then the problem would go away.
Agree 100% - thy are going to have to live somewhere - and guess who has a duty to house them? The costs of this whole thing are ridiculous, they are harming no-one, the council could grant planning permission, they could hedge it around with very restrictive conditions - to ensure this is not seen as any sort of precedent.
But no as always lets get rid of the scum! You can bet there would have been nothing done if some nice middle class family had built themselves a big mansion on the site without planning permission!
John Little
02-Sep-11, 09:18
Agree 100% - thy are going to have to live somewhere - and guess who has a duty to house them? The costs of this whole thing are ridiculous, they are harming no-one, the council could grant planning permission, they could hedge it around with very restrictive conditions - to ensure this is not seen as any sort of precedent.
But no as always lets get rid of the scum! You can bet there would have been nothing done if some nice middle class family had built themselves a big mansion on the site without planning permission!
Ahem.
Nice middle class families do not hold loud all night parties, litter the place with scrap iron and rubbish, drive down the country lane at 60 mph, try to intimidate the neighbours into selling their garden, throw bags of faeces over the garden wall, kidnap dogs, steal turkeys from the neighbouring farm, have police cars sitting up the lane and settle on land that is not theirs.
Stereotypes?
Nope. It's what was going on exactly 1.6 miles down my lane 4 years ago.
My neighbours were in shock. They could not believe what was going on.
I would not for an instant say that all travellers behave like this but I do assure you that these particular travellers did. Not from the Daily Hell either but from own observation.
John Little
02-Sep-11, 09:44
Something else too.
Apart from the obvious one that all the folks who are getting dewy eyed about this are very welcome to have travellers move in down their lane. I hope they keep their anti-social compadres from visiting.
But what this is really about as far as I am concerned is planning.
I have a large garden because the previous owners purchased a piece of land from a neighbouring farmer. It's agricultural land and in an area of special landscape interest.
There's a woman the other side of our village who is a traveller who has bought a piece of agricultural land and has put 4 mobile homes on it. They have been altered to look like permanent bungalows; it's been the subject of legal action for years and the council has been granted eviction orders twice which have then been ignored then appealed...
If she sells that land, having established residence on it, then she will make a fortune.
On the other hand, me, the law abiding mug that I am, could make an awful lot of money.
If I applied for planning permission to built a holiday home or even to put a mobile home on the end of my garden I would make hundreds of thousands of pounds. But the land is not mine to use in that way because the planning laws say I must not do it. I'd be turned down flat.
Yet because of ethnicity, a disputed title, a traveller has a good chance of doing exactly that. And therefore has an opportunity that I have not.
Which means that there are two laws in this country. One for us and one for them.
And I resent that.
When I look at the empty plot and think what comforts my wife and I could enjoy, the cash we could give to the kids and the help to the grandchildren when they go through uni and fees, I can't tell you how much I resent that.
One law for all.
NickInTheNorth
02-Sep-11, 09:58
Fully understand where you are coming from John, but in that sort of scenario the planning system can be made to work to everyones benefit. If she is living there because she wants to live there and not because she wants to make a fortune in the future then she should be given planning permission - with a condition attached - the condition being that the permission is specific to her, for her lifetime, and she would need to apply for a variation to have anyone else live their with her. When she dies the planning consent dies too.
She gets somewhere to live, no-one makes a fortune from it. All happy :)
Correct me if I am wrong but was not the original smaller site legal?
The council involved also has the problem that the land was bought legally by the travellars it is just planning they have flouted by building and siting mobile homes with out permission.
This is a real can of worms and I can sympathise with those who have had their lives and property blighted but what the solution is I am not sure.
There needs to be a change of attitude and the travellars need to look very closely at themselves, if they do not wish to be despised by the general public, they need to clean up their act (pardon my pun) and accept that they too have to abide by the law.
Unfortunately this type of thing blights the whole group of people who live this way of life although many of them are responsible members of the community and have adapted.
Okay - I'll bite.
It appears that the majority at Dale farm are Irish Travellers. Foreign nationals.
One could think they could live in Eire...
The settlement at the time of the establishment of the Irish Free State was that the population of Eire would have unhindered access to the United Kingdom and would not be classed as 'Aliens'. Thus they have always been free to travel and work in the UK. In fact the Irish have always been the single biggest 'ethnic minority' in the UK; bigger than the South Asian or Black minorities.
Among the reasons why so many Irish Travellers are in England is because they are even less tolerated in Southern Ireland!
John Little
02-Sep-11, 11:23
Thankyou for the information on the settlement - I did not know that.
In Eire travellers are not classed as an ethnic group because the Irish government does not recognise them as such. They class them as a 'social group' which I suspect means that they are not able to take advantage of all the regulations surrounding ethnic groups emanating from Brussels.
Our government made a conscious choice to choose this classification.
Thankyou for the information on the settlement - I did not know that.
In Eire travellers are not classed as an ethnic group because the Irish government does not recognise them as such. They class them as a 'social group' which I suspect means that they are not able to take advantage of all the regulations surrounding ethnic groups emanating from Brussels.
Our government made a conscious choice to choose this classification.
If it weren't for this group (if they are one) and their forebearers, we would not have the roads, railways, bridges, dams and all the other infrastructure that costs the health and lives of the workers. About time a little tollerence and even friendship was shown don't you think?
John Little
02-Sep-11, 12:59
Was I being intolerant?
I thought I was objecting to a form of discrimination that advantages them and disadvantages me?
And of course the behaviour of the 'travellers' up the road from me who were evicted from a council house on account of anti-social behaviour, camped on a field which did not belong to them and terrorised my neighbours.
Tolerance- aye right!
BTW that history's inaccurate.
The people who came over to build canals, roads etc were Irish in their thousands. Some may have been travellers.
But as a percentage of the navvies - quite small I would imagine and in proportion to the general population.
Tell you what - spread the word that there's a welcome for them in Caithness- down your road.
John, have you tried applying for a change of use on your land?
John Little
02-Sep-11, 14:13
John, have you tried applying for a change of use on your land?
I don't actually need to. I served 3 years on the Parish Council so am well aware of the situation.
This matter was one that we discussed, not once but often; actually applying for change of land use here is like a snowflake in Hell.
But actually doing it and thumbing your nose at the council is another.
When I finally quit, part of the reason was that there had been in my time 77 infringements of planning application law in my parish alone, including illegal settlements and middle class people building conservatories or extensions.
Not a single one of them was enforced.
I concluded for this and other reasons that I was wasting my time sitting on a talking shop.
Trouble is I was brought up lawful.
As far as I am aware the land that they travellers are on is owned by them. They bought it 10 Years ago when it was a scrap yard and they cleaned it up and built on it.
This is what the eviction is all about as they did Not get planning permission to build on this piece of land.
Now the council and the local residents are sayimng that the land should be put back to what is was before the travellers bought the land, a green field. The only problem it was not a green field but a scrap yard.
One other point is that I believe it is the law in England that if someone builds a building, be it a house or barn, and they did not get planning permission then the council can get it demolished. If the council have not done this within 3 years then that particular building no longer requires planning permission. I remember this from a Grand Designs Programme where a man built a house with no planning permission and hid it with bales of hay for 3 years then revealed it. He then proved it had been built for 3 years and was allowed to keep it.
Also I heard on the news this lunch time that the council have offered all the travellers Council Housing if they leave this land.
It really is a mess and has been handled very badly and no matter what happens the council is in a no win situation.
its not only dale farm ,travellers were told years ago that the council could not provide enough sites for them , and to buy land and planning would be granted . they bought up land to live on but the council then backed down and would not grant planning. so they were left with land that was of no use, i know this is right as it happened to me , we sited a caravan on land in norfolk lived on it for nearly 3 years paying council tax and water rates and registered with the council, when the 3 years were nearly up they give us 24 hours to get off, they did provide housing which i thought was unfair to the people that had been on the waiting list years living in b+bs . where are the council going to get hosuing for all the residents of dale farm from when essex has the one of the higher council waiting list
oldmarine
02-Sep-11, 15:07
Some interesting comments on the problem and solutions to correcting the problem. Some of the solutions could cause more problems.
Some of the solutions could cause more problems.
That is what the org is for....haven't you been paying attention? [lol]
oldmarine
02-Sep-11, 15:27
That is what the org is for....haven't you been paying attention? [lol]
For solving problems or for causing more problems? lol!
windowman
02-Sep-11, 18:44
well all i can say is if they had permison to do so in the first place it woud no come to where they are now
tonkatojo
06-Sep-11, 15:30
Or pay them 6m and call it quits (pun intended).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-14804705
Or pay them 6m and call it quits (pun intended).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-14804705
Typical Travellers, anything for easy money!!!!!
I wonder how many of them have been paying council tax why they have been living there illegally?
C3...............:roll:;)
Typical Travellers, anything for easy money!!!!!
I wonder how many of them have been paying council tax why they have been living there illegally?
C3...............:roll:;)
They don't even pay road tax or insurance so good luck with council tax. I was under the impression that Travellers want to travel, evidently not they want to stay in one place, use services but not pay for them.
As the Bailiffs prepare to move in the most stupidist statement of the day was "We have nowhere to go"....sorry, am I missing something here?
Travellers with nowhere to go?
(How about back to Ireland)!!!
C3............:eek::roll::roll:
Travellers with nowhere to go?
(How about back to Ireland)!!!
One of the reason they're here is that the Irish authorities don't tolerate them as much, and don't have the same "rights" issues and appeals process when dealing with them, as we do.
I only pity whoever ends up with them living nearby after they move.
But no as always lets get rid of the scum! You can bet there would have been nothing done if some nice middle class family had built themselves a big mansion on the site without planning permission!
Eh? Robert Fidler (mentioned above) was not what you class as 'scum'.. don't tar-brush 'em all..
NickInTheNorth
19-Sep-11, 11:17
Eh? Robert Fidler (mentioned above) was not what you class as 'scum'.. don't tar-brush 'em all..
Hi Bekisman - I thought you would be able to tell from the tenor of my postings on this that my attitude toward the travellers is not one of trating any of them like scum. My tongue was firmly in my cheek, and I was really poking fun at the NIMBY's in Essex who would like as not welcome some nice middle class folks to build on the site, but not the "scum" that have landed there.
Sorry for any confusion.
Hi Bekisman - I thought you would be able to tell from the tenor of my postings on this that my attitude toward the travellers is not one of trating any of them like scum. My tongue was firmly in my cheek, and I was really poking fun at the NIMBY's in Essex who would like as not welcome some nice middle class folks to build on the site, but not the "scum" that have landed there.
Sorry for any confusion.
NIMBY's? Maybe you should read the various postings on here that refer to those who have lived near such sites.. have you?..
I personally know of someone who has built - against planning regulations. - a very nice home - the planning office are, even after some two years, not aware of it..
These folks are quiet, well presented people, the 'type' that causes harm to no one, totally opposite to what John Little has relayed in his own post. It is within my power and may others to report this infringement. But we won't.
But IF these folks change and become a nuisance to all and sundry, then I'll be first in the queue at the Planning Office..
Me thinks you are confusing the word 'scum' with 'responsibility'..
I see that 50% of the people inside the compound are not Travellers but "supporters".....
For "supporters".. read..........The great unwashed anarchists who love nothing more than a punch up with the police at every available opportunity and then bleat on about how the police were unkind to them!!
Wheres the water cannon when you need it?
C3............[disgust]:roll:
Tom Cornwall
19-Sep-11, 16:47
To me , it's a strange one.
Having said that, if they've been there 10 years are they really travellers?
.
It seems that Basildon Council are very slow at some things...they put some of the concret bays down on the site themselves...and if the people have been there for 10 years they can't really be classed as 'travellers'...if you or I had done something against planning, I bet it wouldn't be 10 years before the council got round to sorting it out..I thinks it's a bit of Ethnic Cleansing with some Racism soved in for good measure...
It seems that Basildon Council are very slow at some things...they put some of the concret bays down on the site themselves...and if the people have been there for 10 years they can't really be classed as 'travellers'...if you or I had done something against planning, I bet it wouldn't be 10 years before the council got round to sorting it out..I thinks it's a bit of Ethnic Cleansing with some Racism soved in for good measure...
Racism? What race is being discriminated against?
I seems the alleged criminals have won a reprieve again and Basildon Council have a number of hoops to jump through by Friday. Too often we’re seeing the authorities from the grubbiement down to the councils backing off whenever someone shouts, “Human Rights!” or “Racism!” This was never a racist issue it was a breach of the law plain and simple. The alleged criminals should have been brought to book ten years ago. God help us all when every Tom, Dick or Harry claim their human rights without considering their responsibilities.
A song to sing tonight
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hc13lfO-cSY
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