View Full Version : Baillie Windfarm
Tubthumper
17-Aug-11, 20:13
Progress appears good; the access track is being cut and the works/ laydown area has been set up.
RJ McLeods (probably out of their Dingwall office) are running the show.
This would be a good forum to broadcast the actual benefits that Caithness gets from hosting such endeavours on behalf of the Nation (and the planet). So can anyone advise on how many of the 20 or so guys on site just now are from local (ie Caithness-based) subcontractors?
Another good one would be the major grid connection works going on at Dounreay right now? Great piles of earth being moved, loads of concrete going in, large structural steelwork sections delivered... how many local contractors are involved in that?
Baillie windfarm will be another Spittal esque blot on the landscape that does nothing for anyone besides the developers and the electric companies, wind power is not economical and will serve to push down the value of local properties and push up the cost of our electricity.
I wonder what will happen to al these farms once the feed in tarrif ceases in 20 years or so?
Tubthumper
18-Aug-11, 17:02
If not blots then what. Mi6?
There have long been claims of local employment prospects in onshore wind, there is certainly activity going on locally in the renewables sector - and if the turbines are popping up all over the country, surely any effect on house prices will balance out?
But I really want to know how many local people are actually picking up coin from the installations.
And if we don't want the turbines, what will please we?
But I really want to know how many local people are actually picking up coin from the installations.
I don't know about the Baillie project but I worked on the construction of some windmills in Caithness a few years back. R J Maclouds were the main contractor then but apart from the agent all the others were local sub contractors and RJs own men were locals who travelled with them. All the plant was hired locally and all the materials were sourced locally. There must have been a fair dunt went into the local community although i suspect some of that ended up in Inverness shops and some of my own ended up in some nice coffee shops in Amsterdam. Its the way of the world.
Unfortunately the Shebster construction company which specialised in building windfarms went bust 12 months prior to building permission was given due to protracted opposition to the development.
Unfortunately the Shebster construction company which specialised in building windfarms went bust 12 months prior to building permission was given due to protracted opposition to the development.
There's something doesnt feel right about your post.
Tell me more about this company. Who were they? How many windmills have they built etc?
I don't know about the Baillie project but I worked on the construction of some windmills in Caithness a few years back. R J Maclouds were the main contractor then but apart from the agent all the others were local sub contractors and RJs own men were locals who travelled with them. All the plant was hired locally and all the materials were sourced locally. There must have been a fair dunt went into the local community although i suspect some of that ended up in Inverness shops and some of my own ended up in some nice coffee shops in Amsterdam. Its the way of the world.
Are you having a laugh, what fab shop in Caithness is fabricating wind turbines?
The main locals making coin are the landowners, its very lucrative for them, roughly £8000 per turbine per year for the big ones, it certainly is more profitable than farming.
Wind turbines are not the answer, we have the answer sitting righ on our doorstep but are tearing it apart, say what you want but pound for pound nuclear is the only way to go.
I dont know of any Shebster wind turbine specialists.
Everyone is entitled to oppose a delopment.
Are you having a laugh, what fab shop in Caithness is fabricating wind turbines?
The main locals making coin are the landowners, its very lucrative for them, roughly £8000 per turbine per year for the big ones, it certainly is more profitable than farming.
Wind turbines are not the answer, we have the answer sitting righ on our doorstep but are tearing it apart, say what you want but pound for pound nuclear is the only way to go.
I should have known better than to fart against thunder.
Tubthumper
18-Aug-11, 21:22
I don't know about the Baillie project but I worked on the construction of some windmills in Caithness a few years back. R J Maclouds were the main contractor then but apart from the agent all the others were local sub contractors and RJs own men were locals who travelled with them. All the plant was hired locally and all the materials were sourced locally.
That's what I was wanting to know. At leats there's dosh coming in during construction. And if himself stick >£100 000 a year into a community fund...
I know for all we bleat about cutting edge technology in Scotland, but we've pretty much missed every industrial boat there's been. Turbines are being assembled in Campbeltown but they're struggling.
There must have been a fair dunt went into the local community although i suspect some of that ended up in Inverness shops and some of my own ended up in some nice coffee shops in Amsterdam. Its the way of the world.
I guess it was the same with nuclear power, although I guarantee a fair bit went into the pockets of those with money invested in bars. Way of the world indeed!
Mi6 - we ain't going to get a nuclear station. Any other suggestions?
say what you want but pound for pound nuclear is the only way to go.
mathematics can throw that notion into the long grass.
If there is a turbine fab shop in Caithness I would be interested to hear about it, and also the suppliers of the materials i.e steel, rotors, electronics, blades etc etc.
You got me in one. I have no defence. Well done.
That's what I was wanting to know. At leats there's dosh coming in during construction. And if himself stick >£100 000 a year into a community fund...
I know for all we bleat about cutting edge technology in Scotland, but we've pretty much missed every industrial boat there's been. Turbines are being assembled in Campbeltown but they're struggling.
I guess it was the same with nuclear power, although I guarantee a fair bit went into the pockets of those with money invested in bars. Way of the world indeed!
Mi6 - we ain't going to get a nuclear station. Any other suggestions?
Yes we will import power from the Nuclear stations in England that are being built to furnish the countried needs.
mathematics can throw that notion into the long grass.
Best limber up then
That's what I was wanting to know. At leats there's dosh coming in during construction. And if himself stick >£100 000 a year into a community fund...
I worked on building the wee hoosie that contained all the technical stuff. At a rough guess I would say it must have cost at least 300 thousand just for the structure but it could be double that because I wasnt counting. There were as many as 8 men working on it for a number of weeks on and off and anything from 2 to 8 over a 4 month period. There were thousands of tons of hardcore of various sizes and hundreds of tons of concrete all of which was handled by the main contractor and sourced locally and laid by his travelling men all of whom were local. Fences dry stones dykes and drainage were also included.I dont know who erected the turbines or where they came from but I have no doubt caithness could build them. I would think from the civil side alone many hundreds of thousands and into the millions must have gone into the local community not to mention the shops in Inverness or the coffee shops in Amsterdam and that was only 3 turbines.
Tubthumper
18-Aug-11, 22:15
Grid connector upgrade at Dounreay will allow connection of massive great tidal energy generators right along the north coast.
We're far too late (about 30 years!) for the wind turbine fabrication bandwagon, but who's going to design and build the sea power kit?
We've been banging on about our technical expertise up here for years, time to put money where mouth is and start pushing out the goods I think.
I think the ship has sailed on tidal energy also, we have a local trying to design a tidal power machine but I understand you have quite a wait for yout kettle to boil.
All the liscences granted for the Caithness and Orkney generators are for equipment already developed.
I think the bid building at Numax Bower was built for renewables work and it hasnt done a project yet
Shameless link rob from another post but goes to prove that these things are not fabricated locally nor even in the UK.
Also the Haulage firm is based in Yorkshire and I would bet my house that the shipping company isnt local either.
http://www.northern-times.co.uk/News...w-22082011.htm (http://www.northern-times.co.uk/News/Gordonbush-Windfarm-traffic-slideshow-22082011.htm)
ywindythesecond
23-Aug-11, 21:02
Didn't Edward MacKay get a massive payout from CASE to buy a turbine transporter?
Didn't Edward MacKay get a massive payout from CASE to buy a turbine transporter?
Maybe but you have to win the contrat to use it.
Didn't Edward MacKay get a massive payout from CASE to buy a turbine transporter?
Dunno and so what if he did?
Plenty of folk get grants from CASE and HIE to set themselves up in business, but you know that all too well don't you? :roll:
Eddie Mackay is a long term established business so his grant wouldnt have ben to set him up, it would have ben to assist in the development of his business. But as said earlier just because you have the gear doesnt mean you will win the tenders.
He is obviously too expensive if a firm form Yorkshire can make it work to come up here and shift the turbines, but then again with the way they are doing things one turbine transporter wouldnt be enough, you will need a fleet of them.
So can anyone advise on how many of the 20 or so guys on site just now are from local (ie Caithness-based) subcontractors?
From good authority, 8 out of the present 16
Tubthumper
26-Aug-11, 16:44
...and I gather the other 8, while not from here, will be staying locally which means income for B&Bs, restaurants and pubs etc. or for house/ flat rental.
They arent likely to be commuting are they?
So far we have concluded that 8 short term construction jobs have been aquired for local guys.
The county will be OK then
Tubthumper
27-Aug-11, 14:29
So what are you saying? That 8 short term (well, 2 years) construction jobs are of no use to the community? What are you suggesting would be better, no jobs at all?
ywindythesecond
28-Aug-11, 08:24
Dunno and so what if he did?
Plenty of folk get grants from CASE and HIE to set themselves up in business, but you know that all too well don't you? :roll:
Yeah Reggie, I got £1872 from CASE in 2003/4 and I am still in business. Edward Mackay got £210K to build up a turbine transport business in 2002 but he went bust. That is not the point I am trying to make.
In spite of local investment, the renewables bonanza is not happening here. The Collets wagons pulling turbine parts through Brora come from Halifax England and the drivers probably sleep in their cabs.
Shameless link rob from another post but goes to prove that these things are not fabricated locally nor even in the UK.
Also the Haulage firm is based in Yorkshire and I would bet my house that the shipping company isnt local either.
http://www.northern-times.co.uk/News...w-22082011.htm (http://www.northern-times.co.uk/News/Gordonbush-Windfarm-traffic-slideshow-22082011.htm)
The crane company is Irish too.
orkneycadian
28-Aug-11, 11:40
Edward Mackay got £210K to build up a turbine transport business in 2002 but he went bust.
Is that because the minority of anti windfarm campainers had the brakes put on a number of wind turbine projects, thus kaiboshing the business model?
Is that because the minority of anti windfarm campainers had the brakes put on a number of wind turbine projects, thus kaiboshing the business model?
Well if he didn't do his homework including a comprehensive risk analysis..........in fact CASE probably shouldn't have put up the money.
orkneycadian
28-Aug-11, 12:42
.....thus kaiboshing the local enterprising spirit and ensure that all the future construction jobs were predominantly from south! So then, the reason there are so few local construction jobs at this windfarm are down to the anti windfarm campaigners actions some years ago?
.....thus kaiboshing the local enterprising spirit and ensure that all the future construction jobs were predominantly from south! So then, the reason there are so few local construction jobs at this windfarm are down to the anti windfarm campaigners actions some years ago?
Objecting to Windfarms are not just a highland or even a Scots passtime. Other companies can cope with the extended timescales
ywindythesecond
28-Aug-11, 22:41
Is that because the minority of anti windfarm campainers had the brakes put on a number of wind turbine projects, thus kaiboshing the business model?
Grow up OKC. How successful have anti windfarm campaigners been so far? The country (UK) is littered with windfarms and in Caithness alone there are 48 operational turbines, 75 more have planning permission, another 75 are in for planning permission, and there are well over 100 more sussing it out. BUT! The big thing is that you can't now open a paper without reading about how much wind energy is costing us. So hopefully that will kaibosh the business model.
Grow up OKC. How successful have anti windfarm campaigners been so far?
Currently only a third of wind farm applications get approval at a time when economists and scientists are in agreement that large scale wind farms are the most cost efficient way to reduce carbon emissions. A big fail for localism.
The landowners of Britain love windfarms, they can earn millions to put these contraptions on their land. Those millions are from increased gas and electric bills, I wish I owned a few acres of unspoiled mountains, then I could cash in on this scam.
So what are you saying? That 8 short term (well, 2 years) construction jobs are of no use to the community? What are you suggesting would be better, no jobs at all?
Well it isnt quite the major shot in the arem jobs boost we are after now is it and some others on here would have you believe that everything is sourced and produced locally which is a complete pile of nonsense.
So far we have established that 8 men had get two years work out of it.
The total RO paid to the wind industry last year was £400 million. So each of Britain’s wind turbines earned, on average, £138,000 in subsidy last year – Add in the profits from selling the electricity they generate and after construction costs are cleared, you will be making nearly £300,000 per year per turbine, half of it courtesy of the Government.
Now there's a thought..
PS (no wind down here in Leyland)
Well it isnt quite the major shot in the arem jobs boost we are after now is it and some others on here would have you believe that everything is sourced and produced locally which is a complete pile of nonsense.
So far we have established that 8 men had get two years work out of it.
And from the same poster but on another connected thread;
Oh got ya, yes thats about correct, there wil be a few techs jobs available to service and repair these monstrosities.
There's no one on the org would try to tell people the turbines were built in Caithness. I wasnt careful enough when I posted my original post which may have given those of a less discerning nature the wrong impression. Please stop using my error in communication to reinforce your own prejudices. your getting rather tiresome.
As for your snipey remarks concerning a few construction jobs being created locally through the civil works on the turbine sites if you were ever reliant on construction in Caithness as a way of feeding your family you may be more careful about how you condemn them. I suspect the only blisters you have ever had in your life is on your arse.
How very dare you, I once got a nasty blister on my hand from my hair straighteners, ooh I can feel it now, I had to run it under a cold tap for a whole 10 mins.
Sorry to arp on about yuor post, however just ot recap.
Wind turbines constructed locally - no
Erected by local firms - not the main contractor some others used to support
Gives us cheaper electricity - no (totally the opposite)
Provides loads of ongoing jobs - no
Nice to look at - objective but in my opinion no
Good for the environment - arguable if you take into account the construction impact.
24/7 operation - no
feel free to add in the positives which I cant think of many.
ywindythesecond
30-Aug-11, 00:04
As I see it, the Caithness construction resource is just about right for the normal Caithness construction need. How many brickies, joiners, plasterers, electricians, painters, slab layers, drainage layers etc etc does anyone know who is on the dole in Caithness? So if a big job comes into the County, where do the workers come from? Where will they live? Where will they spend their money?
Perhaps we should just expect the treehuggers to reduce global carbon emissions from the 'out of the kindness of their hearts approach' for the rest of us, put on a plate like for everyone else to enjoy without having to pay for it?
Is this anyway realistic?
Whilst Asia and America are chewing hydrocarbons as fast as we can lift it then we are urinating in the ocean with our efforts!!
Whilst Asia and America are chewing hydrocarbons as fast as we can lift it then we are urinating in the ocean with our efforts!!
America has 45GW of operating wind energy projects and China has 41GW
The UK has 5.7GW
America has 45GW of operating wind energy projects and China has 41GW
The UK has 5.7GW
China is roughly 9.59 million Sq Km
USA is roughly 9.83 million sq km
UK is roughly 0.25 million sq km
So the UK is roughly a 38th of the size of the other two yet we produce roughly an 8th of the wind power of them.
I say we are doing our bit and then some.
The question is why is China and the USA producing so little wind power and wee Britian so much
I say we are doing our bit and then some.
I say you sound like you are cashing in on the status quo which you would otherwise had shown lack of support.
Sorry me no comprende
Any chance you could elaborate?
Sorry me no comprende
Any chance you could elaborate?
Boulfruich wind farm? Would it get your thumbs up?
Without having any knowledge of the development, I cannot comment.
If is is in a reasonable proximity to the existing Dunbeath turbines and no locals are impacted, then I would give it the nod
The question is why is China and the USA producing so little wind power and wee Britian so much
In the case of the Chinese people, they have a much lower carbon footprint per capita than us so we should be doing more about our emissions and so we need more renewable energy projects per person or go live in a cave.
As for the USA, they have suffered from long term political denial about Global Warming most obvious they are the ones with the biggest carbon footprint and nobody in the USA wants that used as a stick to hit them with. That's how I see it anyway.
In the case of the Chinese people, they have a much lower carbon footprint per capita than us so we should be doing more about our emissions and so we need more renewable energy projects per person or go live in a cave.
As for the USA, they have suffered from long term political denial about Global Warming most obvious they are the ones with the biggest carbon footprint and nobody in the USA wants that used as a stick to hit them with. That's how I see it anyway.
What is this based on?
China has a population of roughly 1330 million people.
Uk has a population of roughly 62 million people.
Obviously the C02 emissions per head will be lower towards China which has 21 times more folk than the UK
What is this based on?
China has a population of roughly 1330 million people.
Uk has a population of roughly 62 million people.
Obviously the C02 emissions per head will be lower towards China which has 21 times more folk than the UK
So do you agree with it or not, it was a bit unclear in your post? Obviously the Chinese want to develop their country up to the standards of most 1st world standards, nobody can deny them that or want to, trouble is if they do without tackling climate change then the planet will be in trouble. We have the luxury of having a mature economy so we should use it to develop green solutions, the Chinese are still developing theirs and as green solutions are marginally expensive then that can hinder growth. The Chinese have the luxury of not having anyone brave enough who speaks out against Government policies so any Chinese anti-wind campaigners shwould be taken out the back and shot like dogs.
Provided your information is accurate then there is nothing to disagree with.
The fact that you are comparing apples with pears means nothing.
I see you are all for dictatorship and its ways of dealing with the vocal, it all makes sense now.
I see you are all for dictatorship and its ways of dealing with the vocal, it all makes sense now.
I'm all for curing global problems with global solutions, localism leads to nimbyism and can't tackle Climate change imo.
I'm all for curing global problems with global solutions, localism leads to nimbyism and can't tackle Climate change imo.
Well you'd better stop flying to the USA...
So what is the Co2 per capita figures for China and the UK then?
Fly to the USA no this cannot be.....surely a person so concerned by climate change and carbon footprints wouldnt dream of setting foot into a motor car or aircraft?
manloveswife
31-Aug-11, 23:51
Surely its all academic really, it depends whether you even accept global warming, or rather now climate change which accounts for things should it get colder as a fact (oh we are not supposed to say that now are we, for fear of being labelled dinosaurs and anti earth), the planet moves closer and further away from the sun at various times, the planet has been in a warming cycle since the last ice age, and Caithness was once more clement than it is now by far.
Regardless of beliefs we all have a responsibility to look after the planet, so,what matters is the anwer to the supposed problem.
Electric cars, fuel efficient cars, whatever, all cause more pollution in their manufacture and recycling at end of life after just a few short years, than any old smoke billowing polluting car kept on the road beyond "normal" life. Wind turbines take energy to produce, ship and erect, will it be ofset in their viable operating life? (genuine question)
We can argue it out forever, but wind I believe is an archaic unreliable form of power, no wind, no electric, simple. Nuclear we argue is finite, but what about Thorium which is abundant. Tidal is at least somewhat consistent, and hydro has a better impact on the local amenity. Fossil fuels are depleted but cars can run on water, or rather its elements hydrogen, without polluting, could it also provide electricity.
So why the craze for wind, if I were a cynic, I could think it had nothing to do with more than subsidy, feed in tariffs and the politically correct excuse of a few to get rich and begger the idillic surroundings and amenities of some of Britains last true dear green places.., Wind farms, the name itself is a misleading term, using the land and farming it, is not wind farms, farmers should farm not build windmills, we mourn food shortages in the world, and carbon neutral bio fuels are blamed for loss of rainforest and shortage of corn. So is putting over field and pasture to wind as an alternative to farming a viable answer?
Just a thought, why not develop the potential of the many reliable resources we have, rather than putting all our eggs into the one basket from which the few benefit. There will never be jobs from the wind industry in the area to rival the old Nuclear industry, but to lead the way with something like thorium may provide something worthwhile.
So, could the pro people please explain why wind is the all important answer, never mind the jobs, wealth into the area aspect, just why wind and not the other options?
So what is the Co2 per capita figures for China and the UK then?
5 tonnes for Chinese and 8 tonnes for UK just now but 10 years ago it was 2 tonnes for China and 10 tonnes for UK. So massive increases in CO2 hence why last decade was the hottest by far and last year was the hottest since records began. It is no coincidence that extreme weather is increasingly grabbing the headlines. Lord Stern said people only have to spend 1% of GDP to offset global warming and yet the USA now has to spend $20 billion to repair the damage caused by just one storm.
So, could the pro people please explain why wind is the all important answer, never mind the jobs, wealth into the area aspect, just why wind and not the other options?
Only people who are anti-wind ask those sort questions, pro-wind people see wind as only a part of the answer.
manloveswife
01-Sep-11, 09:39
Thats the thing though Rheghead, I'm not anti wind as such, more anti dot them about everywhere, yet anyone who asks these questions is labelled "anti wind" as if that makes them a Luddite. There seems to be a craze for them at the moment and I don't believe it is all coming from a desire to preserve the planet. A few large concentrated windfarms out of the way I have no problem with. This though should be coupled to a scheme to provide true recompense for those unduly affected by them such as cheaper (not dearer) electric, then I see no problem.
So as PART of a much wider picture they may have a place, but only a small one and as such the current trend to throw them up all over the place is not the answer. Denmark provides a good example.
So, you see them as only part of the answer, so do I, I guess the difference is you see them as a much larger part of the answer than I do.
So, why the need to throw them up in ones and twos and threes, spread out all over the place, surely two or three large but isolated "farms" would be a better bet. Also why the subsidies and high feed in tariffs, surely if the technology and business model is so good then they can stand as a viable business on there own.
5 tonnes for Chinese and 8 tonnes for UK just now but 10 years ago it was 2 tonnes for China and 10 tonnes for UK. So massive increases in CO2 hence why last decade was the hottest by far and last year was the hottest since records began. It is no coincidence that extreme weather is increasingly grabbing the headlines. Lord Stern said people only have to spend 1% of GDP to offset global warming and yet the USA now has to spend $20 billion to repair the damage caused by just one storm.
So whilst we have lowered our C02 emissions by 20% the Chinese have increased theirs by 250% and you think that bombarding our flow country with wind turbines is the answer or part of. In real terms then China are churning out 6,650,000,000 tonnes of Co2 against our 496,000,000 tonnes.
I appreciate that China is a developing counrty but like it or not it is pushing on at all costs without a thought for the environment.
I was out there for spells a few years ago and you can see why they wear the face masks when going about theor business.
Surely its all academic really, it depends whether you even accept global warming, or rather now climate change which accounts for things should it get colder as a fact (oh we are not supposed to say that now are we, for fear of being labelled dinosaurs and anti earth), the planet moves closer and further away from the sun at various times, the planet has been in a warming cycle since the last ice age, and Caithness was once more clement than it is now by far. Some will argue this but I take it as given that climate change is happening.
Regardless of beliefs we all have a responsibility to look after the planet, so,what matters is the anwer to the supposed problem.
Electric cars, fuel efficient cars, whatever, all cause more pollution in their manufacture and recycling at end of life after just a few short years, than any old smoke billowing polluting car kept on the road beyond "normal" life. Wind turbines take energy to produce, ship and erect, will it be ofset in their viable operating life? (genuine question) Great question, one I have never seen the answer to either, on the car front if it can pass the UK MOT system OK then I dont see why they should be scrapped.
We can argue it out forever, but wind I believe is an archaic unreliable form of power, no wind, no electric, simple. Nuclear we argue is finite, but what about Thorium which is abundant. Tidal is at least somewhat consistent, and hydro has a better impact on the local amenity. Fossil fuels are depleted but cars can run on water, or rather its elements hydrogen, without polluting, could it also provide electricity. If an engine can run on hydrogen then I dont see why a turbine couldnt.
So why the craze for wind, if I were a cynic, I could think it had nothing to do with more than subsidy, feed in tariffs and the politically correct excuse of a few to get rich and begger the idillic surroundings and amenities of some of Britains last true dear green places.., Wind farms, the name itself is a misleading term, using the land and farming it, is not wind farms, farmers should farm not build windmills, we mourn food shortages in the world, and carbon neutral bio fuels are blamed for loss of rainforest and shortage of corn. So is putting over field and pasture to wind as an alternative to farming a viable answer? To be fair many of these turbines are not on decent arable land, if they were you could still farm the land OK, however if the big feed in tarrif etc was not available there would be little or no intrest in wind power in my opinion.
Just a thought, why not develop the potential of the many reliable resources we have, rather than putting all our eggs into the one basket from which the few benefit. There will never be jobs from the wind industry in the area to rival the old Nuclear industry, but to lead the way with something like thorium may provide something worthwhile.
So, could the pro people please explain why wind is the all important answer, never mind the jobs, wealth into the area aspect, just why wind and not the other options?
A few decent points there
There seems to be a craze for them at the moment and I don't believe it is all coming from a desire to preserve the planet.
I agree, I've got no problem with people who are in it because of the money because everybody who is in business from whether you are a toy manufacturer, coal mining corp or solar panel manufacturer, they are in it because they want to be rich. A lot of people think going green is some left wing or altruistic activity, it is not, it is all about the money. The crux of the thing is that the population have to be in favour of making renewable industry operators rich beyond all their wildest dreams simply as a reward for saving the planet that we live in. Otherwise other people will get rich beyond their wildest dream for destroying it. I know who I prefer to make rich.
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