View Full Version : Tottenham Riots !
Does anyone know what is at the heart of these latest riots? After the 1985 riots in the same area where Pc Keith Blakelock was murdered I thought things had settled down. It is reported that the shooting of a local man by Police who was allegedly armed sparked off these latest riots.
Is it the case nowadays that in area's of high immigrant related area's, everytime something happens that they dont like they are likely to start a riot, start fires and loot the shops? Do they want to rule their area to their own laws and not those of the UK?
And one last thing, why do I get Enoch Powell's "Rivers of blood" speech still ringing in my ears after all these years?
What are your thoughts on the riots and why do you think they were started?
C3......[disgust]:confused
orkneycadian
07-Aug-11, 12:59
Allegedly, according to the BBC website, someone shot a police officer, and was fatally shot in return. Riots followed a protest somedays later. Co-incides with some of my views on another thread - If what is on the BBC site is true, and the deceased had a bit more fear for the law to not go round shooting police, then the whole thing may never have kicked off.
In my view, Tottenham is just another example of the "treat with kid gloves" approach to justice we have had in this country for so long now.
It's quite shocking to see London burning like that.Surely they should wait for the investigation into the death of this man.If it's true he had a fire arm and used it at officers, then fair do's.But we won't know til the report and the protestors should wait too.
What a load of cobblers trying to drag immigration and Enoch Powell into this. Please stop reading the Daily Mail.
High population density, high unemployment, wagon load of rent a thugs full of beerage and drugs and bored on a saturday night.
Does anyone know what is at the heart of these latest riots? After the 1985 riots in the same area where Pc Keith Blakelock was murdered I thought things had settled down. It is reported that the shooting of a local man by Police who was allegedly armed sparked off these latest riots.
Is it the case nowadays that in area's of high immigrant related area's, everytime something happens that they dont like they are likely to start a riot, start fires and loot the shops? Do they want to rule their area to their own laws and not those of the UK?
And one last thing, why do I get Enoch Powell's "Rivers of blood" speech still ringing in my ears after all these years?
What are your thoughts on the riots and why do you think they were started?
C3......[disgust]:confused
I don't think it really matters whether there was or was not a "reason" behind it,
in these places, reasons given are in my opinion merely excuses used for what amounts to chaos.
The UK's law means nothing to a certain pecentage of people be they immigrant or not, their mindset
is that of mob rule regardless.
One of the news reporters in a telephone conversation with a witness asked "what about the police"? to which the bystander witness replied
that the police were all in hiding.
That is to say the UK'S law enforcement officers were not capable of law enforcement in this instance,
what better reason therefore, does the average rioter / pillager need then to go all out on a law breaking spree.
What a load of cobblers trying to drag immigration and Enoch Powell into this. Please stop reading the Daily Mail.
High population density, high unemployment, wagon load of rent a thugs full of beerage and drugs and bored on a saturday night.
Again not taking immigration, Enoch Powell and the Daily Mail into this, who do you think "hired" the thugs? Also, seriously how can you be bored in London?
Again not taking immigration, Enoch Powell and the Daily Mail into this, who do you think "hired" the thugs? Also, seriously how can you be bored in London?
The largest of towns are lonely places, concrete jungles where even the neighbours are unknown entities to one another.
Does anyone know what is at the heart of these latest riots?
C3......
The use of the words "they" and "us" to describe perceived differences in populations. " [disgust]:confused "
According to the radio news, riots started after a vigil for 29 year old man who was shot dead by police. My friends live in Tottenham and are keeping me informed. Their 3 local shops have been burnt down.
Does anyone think that this kind of rioting and lawlessness will get worse in the UK as the years go by or do you think that Tottenham is a one off place for riots?
C3.....:confused:confused
What a load of cobblers trying to drag immigration and Enoch Powell into this. Please stop reading the Daily Mail.
High population density, high unemployment, wagon load of rent a thugs full of beerage and drugs and bored on a saturday night.
Sorry Phill, I used the word immigrants because in the 1985 riots it was almost 100% black people who were out of control and this latest riot seems to be the same as far as I can see from the TV pictures!! I have never known riots to start up when it's been a white man thats been shot by the Police unless someone can prove me wrong!
C3.......:confused
tonkatojo
07-Aug-11, 14:16
Does anyone think that this kind of rioting and lawlessness will get worse in the UK as the years go by or do you think that Tottenham is a one off place for riots?
C3.....:confused:confused
depends if the "sectarian act" comes into being on match days.
orkneycadian
07-Aug-11, 15:27
According to here....
http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/news/9181207.Tottenham_Hale_man_was_shot_by_firearms_of ficers_after_arrest_attempt/
i (http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/news/9181207.Tottenham_Hale_man_was_shot_by_firearms_of ficers_after_arrest_attempt/)t would appear that the deceased has been linked to this protest and subsequent riot was being arrested (or attempted to be arrested) under Operation Trident, a police crackdown on gun crime. That he was willing to shoot a police officer (potentially with intention to kill, as the report linked to above suggests it was only the police officers radio that saved him), confirms that whatever justice system we allegedly have in place at the moment, its not enough to deter criminals from attempting to murder police officers.
What is slightly bizarre is that many lines of reporting in the media talk of things like "increased tensions since Mr Duggans death" - I haven't found any yet that report "increased tensions since Mr Duggans alleged murder attempt on a police officer"....
Yes, I think there will be much more of this in future, in all areas of the country, as more and more of the population realise they can do what they like with little risk of much more than a slap on the wrists and a request not to do it again.
On here.... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14434318 a "family friend" claims - "This guy was not violent. Yes, he was involved in things but he was not an aggressive person. He had never hurt anyone." - Hmmm, allegedly involved in gun crime, carrying a gun in a minicab and shooting a police officer? Come on....
Oh, and before the anti gun brigade start, my money is on any gun being involved in this incident being unlawfully held....
This was festering/going on in the late 60's in the Brixton area....
Police cars set on fire and looting.
Methinks it is a combination of the lack of assimilation into the dominant culture, but what is that dominant culture nowadays!
I shall give you an example of a 'dominant' issue.....
Some years ago I was in a Marina in Crissfield, Maryland in the US. The Marina had been recently been re-furbished at a cost of approx $10 Million by the State who had erected a 12 foot fence around it. A beautiful place for people with money and nice boats. I was on a 34 foot sailboat! (sma by the norm there).Approx 300 yards away there was a 'tenement' house/building which looked as if it was inhabited by young black people.
During the evening hours it was quite noisy...music etc etc., but OK.
So as we were setting sail to do the Chesapeake Bay area we spoke to the 'harbour master', and asked about the situation.....and the 12 ' fence...His reply was 'to keep them out/only white people work here'.
Now if I was a black person I wouldn't be too happy.....and do we have to ask the 'Q'....why are we having probs! I don't know about the UK., but I know in the US there are still probs.
Or more subtlety 'which came first the chicken or the egg'.
D
And one last thing, why do I get Enoch Powell's "Rivers of blood" speech still ringing in my ears after all these years?
You taped it.
gaud...an 'at wis me wantin til move til london, mind?? :roll:
i wis on niteshift last nite an' iss poor wifie woke up efter hevin a bad dream. she telt it wis all aboot gangsters in her kitchen an' stuff....poor wifie, she's in her 90's an' wis a bity distressed.
"aw, nivermind" i says, "lets put on 'e telly til see if there's somethin nice on"
............:eek:
"oh ma gaud" she says, "fars all 'e riots happenin?"
"ach, miles awie, tottenham" i says.
"ats far i come fie" she cries :eek:
"oops, eh...achm......"cbeebies??"
I see the riots, fighting and looting spread to other parts last night. It cant bode well for the Olympics next year when all the police will be on Olympic duty it will be an ideal opportunity for these lawless Morons to strike yet again and get away with it.
It's more like something you would read about in America in cities like Detroit not good old leafy Great Britain. What is our once great country coming to?
C3......:confused:(
cazmanian_minx
08-Aug-11, 11:32
There's a very good police blog called Inspector Gadget, written by a currently serving police inspector. He sees the Olympics as one of three possible big flashpoints for rioting in the next year, the other two being the eviction of a large gypsy camp and an EDL protest march in Essex, both scheduled for next month. He's actually edited the post to take that information out now (I saw it on RSS feed) but the blog is fascinating and often heartbreaking reading.
http://inspectorgadget.wordpress.com/
Having lived in London and other large suburban areas, I know from experience that there is a large amount of smouldering tension amongst many groups of people and a deal of mistrust in the police.
This how ever does not excuse the behaviour that we are seeing which is nothing less than anarchy and that is often well organised.
No one group can be accused as any frustrated youth is capable of picking up a rock,throwing a petrol bomb etc; just witness what has happened in Ireland over the years and the recent pictures from Athens.
Saddly such things are a direct result ot percieved racism,bigotry,poor education and lack of work oppurtunities.
Until such time as these matters are addressed then the problem will persist, it may sound simplistic but very often a few minor actions can avert what errupted into a major crisis.
Does anyone think we have gone soft on this type of criminal? Whatever happened to the tear gas, the water cannon or even, as I believe should be used.....the plastic bullet!!!!!
Is it something to do with Health and Safety?
C3.....:confused:eek:
Oh I think they are going to try and be nice/reasonable in the beginning..You see the Police cannot fight the whole Community, so they have to gain the support of the Majority of the people, and then they will do some strict enforcement.
Whatever happens the Police are criticized. If they move in too quickly with Force they are wrong, and in this case where they tried to temper things they are wrong again....
So, for the purposes of satisfying all, this appears to be their strategy.....
Kinda sad to see the UK go like this....but we must look at the Politicians who allowed this to occur.......
One less scumbag on the streets.
Interesting watching Sky/BBC and the present 'activity' in other parts of the City, close-ups show a number of white fellows near the front throwing stuff at the coppers, this ain't the poor downtrodden masses, but the bloody anarchists - they are pretty nimble getting the not-so-bright fodder to get stuck in.. all these Blackberry messages telling all to meet at certain points - usual anarchist procedure..
Fair enough they will collar a fair few by the use of ubiquitous cameras, CCTV, news coverage.. But what'll happen? they'll go in front of the beak and get a paltry fine.. never mind, makes 'em sell a pair of nice Nike's looted, or a small TV though!
There's a very good police blog called Inspector Gadget, written by a currently serving police inspector. He sees the Olympics as one of three possible big flashpoints for rioting in the next year, the other two being the eviction of a large gypsy camp and an EDL protest march in Essex, both scheduled for next month. He's actually edited the post to take that information out now (I saw it on RSS feed) but the blog is fascinating and often heartbreaking reading.
http://inspectorgadget.wordpress.com/
Very interesting reading. Tks for the 'heads up'....s
It would appear that we have both noticed the same things in some of the televised pictures bekisman, as I said in my previous post this has all the signs of anarchists at work.
I picked up that in a certain London area that is well known for it's majority that are of afro/caribean extraction, the yobs leading the attack looked to be mostly eurasian, now there's a funny thing!
orkneycadian
08-Aug-11, 20:23
Does anyone think we have gone soft on this type of criminal?
Got it in one! If folk can run riot at school without any kind of discipline, then they soon figure they can do the same in the "real world"
Reap what you sow and all that....
Watching this madness unfold on the tellybox tonight. Birmingham has started now, no doubt there will be other skirmishes in other large cities.
Something that seems to have been missed in a lot of reports is the work of the fireybobbies, stretched beyond limits with very restricted working practice due to the violence.
Fire engines with riot shields and crews being bricked as they try and fight fires.
John Little
08-Aug-11, 21:14
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riot_Act#Consequences_of_disregarding_the_proclama tion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riot_Act#Consequences_of_disregarding_the_proclama tion
You can't do that! what about their Human rights?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riot_Act#Consequences_of_disregarding_the_proclama tion
Very very Politically Incorrect my man! And would Boris do it??
My mates a Man City fan - he reckons Ricky Villa and Ossie Ardiles are to blame for the riots! It was 30 yrs ago but he can't let it go.
Mystical Potato Head
08-Aug-11, 22:18
Does anyone think we have gone soft on this type of criminal? Whatever happened to the tear gas, the water cannon or even, as I believe should be used.....the plastic bullet!!!!!
Is it something to do with Health and Safety?
C3.....:confused:eek:
Get the army in and flatten the bloody lot of them,these idiots are not doing it as a reprisal for the guy who was shot.Even his father was on the TV saying you are not doing this in the name of my son.
Thes are just young idiots who are using this as an oppertunity to wreck everything and create total anarchy,if they have a beef with the police then take it out on the police but to loot and burn innocent peoples homes,shops and cars means its time to send in the army and yes,use tear gas and water cannons and if that fails get the rubber bullets out.This society is to bloody soft ,to many do gooders and to many people take the moral high ground"oh you cant do that".....well these so called human beings have no regard for law or indeed their very own society so why should the authorities have any regard for them.For the sake of the innocent law abiding people on the street,for the sake of their propreties and businessess,use force and preferably quite brutal force because thats what they deserve.
Get the army in and flatten the bloody lot of them,these idiots are not doing it as a reprisal for the guy who was shot.Even his father was on the TV saying you are not doing this in the name of my son.
Thes are just young idiots who are using this as an oppertunity to wreck everything and create total anarchy,if they have a beef with the police then take it out on the police but to loot and burn innocent peoples homes,shops and cars means its time to send in the army and yes,use tear gas and water cannons and if that fails get the rubber bullets out.This society is to bloody soft ,to many do gooders and to many people take the moral high ground"oh you cant do that".....well these so called human beings have no regard for law or indeed their very own society so why should the authorities have any regard for them.For the sake of the innocent law abiding people on the street,for the sake of their propreties and businessess,use force and preferably quite brutal force because thats what they deserve.
Oh dear, me thinks you'll ruffle a few feathers on here from the politically correct !
Met Police, do your job right. Forget about the dogs and horses, get the Polar bears out.
Get the army in and flatten the bloody lot of them,these idiots are not doing it as a reprisal for the guy who was shot.Even his father was on the TV saying you are not doing this in the name of my son.
Thes are just young idiots who are using this as an oppertunity to wreck everything and create total anarchy,if they have a beef with the police then take it out on the police but to loot and burn innocent peoples homes,shops and cars means its time to send in the army and yes,use tear gas and water cannons and if that fails get the rubber bullets out.This society is to bloody soft ,to many do gooders and to many people take the moral high ground"oh you cant do that".....well these so called human beings have no regard for law or indeed their very own society so why should the authorities have any regard for them.For the sake of the innocent law abiding people on the street,for the sake of their propreties and businessess,use force and preferably quite brutal force because thats what they deserve.
Got it in one!! I'm sick fed up with all the do-gooders in this country who crawl to these yobs.
Copycat rioting and looting in Peckham now. Apparently theyve taken some half price cracked ice, miles and miles of carpet tiles, TVs, deep freeze, David Bowie LPs........
Get the army in and flatten the bloody lot of them,these idiots are not doing it as a reprisal for the guy who was shot.Even his father was on the TV saying you are not doing this in the name of my son.
Thes are just young idiots who are using this as an oppertunity to wreck everything and create total anarchy,if they have a beef with the police then take it out on the police but to loot and burn innocent peoples homes,shops and cars means its time to send in the army and yes,use tear gas and water cannons and if that fails get the rubber bullets out.This society is to bloody soft ,to many do gooders and to many people take the moral high ground"oh you cant do that".....well these so called human beings have no regard for law or indeed their very own society so why should the authorities have any regard for them.For the sake of the innocent law abiding people on the street,for the sake of their propreties and businessess,use force and preferably quite brutal force because thats what they deserve.
I completely agree with you MPH! This is getting out of control now and has absolutely nothing to do with the shooting of the guy,
As you say it is mindless thugs just using it as an excuse to loot shops.
It was sickening watching the televsion coverage showing them running out of shops with televisions, laptops etc and setting vehicles and buildings on fire. In one interview with a local resident it showed a beautiful old building which he said had survived the blitz but will now have to be torn down after being set on fire.
I feel for the people living in these areas as they must be terrified.
Mystical Potato Head
08-Aug-11, 23:07
Oh dear, me thinks you'll ruffle a few feathers on here from the politically correct !
Quite frankly,i dont give a damn,thought it best i miss out the "my dear" bit.
linnie612
08-Aug-11, 23:16
if they have a beef with the police then take it out on the police
??????????
Met Police, do your job right. Forget about the dogs and horses, get the Polar bears out.Topical!!!
oldmarine
08-Aug-11, 23:27
I saw the word IMMIGRANT on this thread priviously. I also saw the word "black." Not all problems are associated with BLACK IMMIGRANTS. We in the USA are having problems with IMMIGRANTS coming across our border with Mexico. Not all are Mexicans but we do have a problem with ILLEGAL drug cartels crossing our border and killing people so they can push their ILLEGAL drugs across. I believe GB has had some problems with ILLEGALS but I am not certain of the extent of that problem. You people in GB should have a clue to that problem.
Mystical Potato Head
08-Aug-11, 23:35
??????????
This is supposed to have started with the police killing the guy so why are these rioters targeting the property of innocent members of the public.If they are rioting because of something the police did then why are they not targeting police stations and not anything and everything that stands in their way.Yes i know they are having battles with police but burning innocent members of the public's property just proves the point that they are rioting for the sake of it.
equusdriving
09-Aug-11, 00:13
Get the army in and flatten the bloody lot of them,these idiots are not doing it as a reprisal for the guy who was shot.Even his father was on the TV saying you are not doing this in the name of my son.
Thes are just young idiots who are using this as an oppertunity to wreck everything and create total anarchy,if they have a beef with the police then take it out on the police but to loot and burn innocent peoples homes,shops and cars means its time to send in the army and yes,use tear gas and water cannons and if that fails get the rubber bullets out.This society is to bloody soft ,to many do gooders and to many people take the moral high ground"oh you cant do that".....well these so called human beings have no regard for law or indeed their very own society so why should the authorities have any regard for them.For the sake of the innocent law abiding people on the street,for the sake of their propreties and businessess,use force and preferably quite brutal force because thats what they deserve.
Got it in one, the last Tottenham riots that was suposedly in protest to the death of Cynthia Jarret the mother of a local scumbag who the police were trying to arrest at the time, was actually being planned at least 2 weeks prior to this with petrol bombs and weapons being stored in local garages !!
I hope these people don't think they can get away with it. Around 400 arrests so far and there will be plenty more today. Each one arrested will shop around 6 others. It doesn't take too long to get them all. I just hope the courts will treat sentencing for crimes like arson, looting, assault, attempted murder seriously so we get them put away for a very long time.
John Little
09-Aug-11, 07:32
http://www.howardleague.org/?id=266
http://www.howardleague.org/?id=266
Well, let out all the murderers to make room. We'll still be safer!
John Little
09-Aug-11, 07:59
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?msid=207192798388318292131.0004aa01af6748773e8f 7&msa=0&ie=UTF8&ll=51.536086,-0.056305&spn=0.39294,0.630341&z=10&source=embed
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?msid=207192798388318292131.0004aa01af6748773e8f 7&msa=0&ie=UTF8&ll=51.536086,-0.056305&spn=0.39294,0.630341&z=10&source=embed
Blimey :eek:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?msid=207192798388318292131.0004aa01af6748773e8f 7&msa=0&ie=UTF8&ll=51.536086,-0.056305&spn=0.39294,0.630341&z=10&source=embedInjuns!!!!
http://www.howardleague.org/?id=266Well, at least the £4million they have can go towards all the extra sky subscriptions.
http://www.howardleague.org/?id=266They must like it: they keep going back..
Blimey
I will start to worry when the two shops in Lybster get looted......:eek:
At least Wick is safe, there's nothing worth looting there.....;)
I have just been watching a Youtube clip from just before the election where Nick Clegg warns of possible riots if the Tories got into power, how right he was but he didnt mention that he would be a part of it..I will try and dig it out and post it!!!
C3......[disgust]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YItK1izQIwo&feature=player_embedded#at=35
We are different from our Mediterranean friends Nick??? How??
C3.....:confused:eek:
NickInTheNorth
09-Aug-11, 09:44
given the crap that those that are set above us have been involved in over recent years, the thieving (mp's expenses) the coniving with the media, the cuts of services, the change to student funding, the threats to rights to secure housing, the increase in people not in work, the steep rises in food prices, the huge rises in fuel and electricity prices....
...is anyone honestly surprised that at the first hint of an excuse this looting and rioting has kicked off?
...and do you see it stopping soon or spreading further?
That they keep going back is an indication that the criminal justice system doesn't work. Surely we want to prevent reoffending? Surely we want people who have served time in prison to turn their lives around and be productive members of society not career criminals.
The events in tottenham are shocking, criminal and unjustified in any circumstances. However in a borough which has seen crime rates rising, unemployment rising, initiatives cut which sought to address social problemsand gang culture it should not be surprising that criminals are able to take advantage of that and create the mayhem we see happening as we speak. Where you get alienation, disadvantage and deprivation you create fertile ground for crime and gang culture as it offers a sense of belonging, respect and a 'place' for people who have no sense of community or society.
Do not misunderstand me here. I am not suggesting leniency, nor offering excuses for the behaviour we have seen. I am not advocating softness when dealing with these criminals or letting them off in some way. However, as a society we surely have a responsibility to reduce and minimise deprivation, therefore minimising the chances of criminals taking advantage of those who are disaffected.
The Met also must keep it's own house in order and ensure they are above reproach. I don't believe that this is the case as it stands just now. If the bullet in the radio turns out to have come from a police weapon and casts doubt on the events in question then god knows what will happen. Police must be above reproach. The Met has to rebuild it's reputation.
Finally the rivers of blood thing is just a smokescreen offering a convenient scapegoat which satisfies those people who have no understanding of society and how other people think or feel. Most young people involved in these events, living in the areas will be British, a product of British schools, British society and if Britain has created a fertile ground for crime and gangs to flourish then blaming it on immigrants is daft.
Hmmm, it'll calm down once most of 'em are back at Uni.
orkneycadian
09-Aug-11, 10:17
This softly softly approach to discipline and justice works quite well, doesn't it.....
At least the PC brigade will be happy this morning that people are being allowed to "express themselves"!
...and do you see it stopping soon or spreading further?Mr Cameron, now he has finally decided to jet back from his jollies, has a very difficult game to play.
The rozzers are not going to go in heavy cos' they'll get hung out to dry by the govt that is sacking them and cutting their pensions.
All the kids now know they can just go rampaging as they wish 'cos the coppers aren't able and allowed to go in heavy and (understandably) not willing to put themselves in harms way to protect some shops from getting looted.
The polis management, having shafted their rank and file, are finding that the rank and file aren't volunteering for extra duty so literally cannot get enough fed boots on the street.
In a way it's almost an unwitting conspiracy.
So, what does he do? He can't send the army in as that has already been rebuffed by the Home Office and it would be a real topping off to the embarrassment of pre 2012 Olympics.
He has to get it nipped in the bud, but how? If he doesn't he's weak.
He has a lot of behind the scenes work to do with his party advisers. This is going to be a very political issue now.
And it's another dry day by the looks of things darn sarf and when the kids are off skule that is not a good combination. Tonight is going to be very interesting indeed.
(mebbe get Jim Anderton back from retirement)
Instead of bringing in our over stretched Armed Forces to control this situation, I would suggest that the Government should bring across the experts at controlling this type of rioting.....The Northern Ireland Police. I know this would not be possible, under present day politics....but just a suggestion.
Walter Ego
09-Aug-11, 10:26
Nice weather for it.
Scum!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gex_ya4-Oo&feature=player_embedded
Not just Tottenham now, though is it.
I am not a fan of the Tories as you all know but I cant help but think that Maggie wouldn't be letting this happen would she? Come on Dave, get a grip man and stuff the do-gooders and the human rights act, get this scum off the streets by whatever method it takes and if you hurt them in the process even better!!
C3.....:mad::mad:
What fertile propaganda for Presidents Hassad and Gaddafi?
NickInTheNorth
09-Aug-11, 13:17
I fully support the Met and other police forces in doing whatever needs to be done to restore order to the streets of London and elsewhere. However I hope that they learn the lessons writ large in these riots.
It is NOT acceptable to abdicate responsibility to fully police ALL communities in the UK at all times. If the estates at the centre of these troubles had been policed properly some of the current trouble makers might well not have been on the streets to commit these atrocious acts.
John Little
09-Aug-11, 13:18
Perhaps it's more a case of chickens coming home to roost?
Too many years of putting cash before community?
"There is nothing more dangerous than to build a society with a large segment of people in that society who feel that they have no stake in it; who feel that that have nothing to lose. People who have stake in their society, protect that society, but when they don't have it, they unconsciously want to destroy it."
~ Martin Luther King, Jr
I am not a fan of the Tories as you all know but I cant help but think that Maggie wouldn't be letting this happen would she? Come on Dave, get a grip man and stuff the do-gooders and the human rights act, get this scum off the streets by whatever method it takes and if you hurt them in the process even better!!
C3.....:mad::mad:
Erm She did - 1981 ring any bells?????
NickInTheNorth
09-Aug-11, 13:32
Interesting words spoken about a society which faced many of the same issues that many small pockets of Britain face today. There may not be the same level of officially sanctioned racism as faced by the black population of America back in the 50's and 60's, but there is most certainly the same divide between the haves and have nots, between those with opportunity and those without.
I hope that our government can rise to the occasion and find a solution, but very much doubt it. I suspect that all that will happen is that they will through the use of force manage to put the lid back on and we'll face the same issues again some way down the line...
What baffles me and perhaps someone could enlighten me but why do these area's need "Community Leaders" and Community Activists"? All area's of the UK have local Councillors and MP's so why the need for these people in these flashpoint area's? Who appoints them as "Leaders" or are they self appointed?
And more importantly, do the Residents take any notice of them?
Its just something that's baffled me for a long while now!
C3.....:eek::confused
NickInTheNorth
09-Aug-11, 13:53
As you ask so nicely Corrie 3 :)
The community leaders are essentially the more respected members of the local ethnic communities. They exist because the mainstream politics in this country are far more concerned with national party politics than they are with real issues that real people face in their day to day lives.
White people in the UK are easily dealt with by traditional politics, after all we have all grwon up with some sort of shared values and ideas of community.
Members of the various ethnic minorities, particularly those born outwith the UK do not always have those easily understood shared values. They often have a patriarchal or matriarchal society in which the elders of the local community take a very active role in running the affairs of the local community. When issues arise in the local communities where there is a large concentration of ethnic minorities then it is natural and comfortable for them to fall back on familiar structures.
In the same way it is convenient for the authorities in the UK to deal with self appointed community leaders. In many instances the leaders will have some quasi official leadership roll too, often a religious or youth group roll. In many communities one of the many advantages to all parties is the ability to convey information in English rather than rely on third party translation services. The message can then be spread through the local community in whatever language is most comfortable for all concerned.
I am not saying that is what the community leaders that the media love to trot out for interview are, but that is the general background to the term in particular in the inner London Boroughs.
Mmm!! Thanks Nick, very well described. It might be a good idea if all Communities had a Community Leader then? Something that is more open, honest and transparent as our Councillors and MP'S aren't always are they?
It does seem at this time though Nick that the Community isn't listening to their Leaders which is very worrying indeed!!
C3......:confused
The coalition's strategy is to cut those services which affects the most vulnerable and needy in our society first, kick them while they're down why don't you Dave, but don't sound so righteous now it is all going bad.
This ain't about community.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424
The 'rich' are being shown that the scumbags can do what they want. The rich being anyone with a business, that'll include the 'immigrants' of any flavour who have worked hard to set up a small business to try and improve their own and their families life. Most probably by using loans and or mortgage which will still have to be paid up regardless of the remains that are left smouldering.
Nice.
Perhaps it's more a case of chickens coming home to roost?
Too many years of putting cash before community?
"There is nothing more dangerous than to build a society with a large segment of people in that society who feel that they have no stake in it; who feel that that have nothing to lose. People who have stake in their society, protect that society, but when they don't have it, they unconsciously want to destroy it."
~ Martin Luther King, Jr
I am not a bleedin' heart, BUT I think this is a big part of it......and then of course you have the 'hangers-on', who take pride in anything anti social!
This whole thing didn't start in '85...There were riots in Brixton and area in '68., altho' no one would consider calling it that then.....
Just a thought....In the late 60's when problems arose in South London and the crowds were impossible, the Fire Dept was called and they used their....'Water Cannons' to quell the Crowd(Riot). This was a common situation...
And another issue was when Idi Amin turfed thousands of Criminals out of Uganda...actually they all had British Passports...and guess where he sent them....London Heathrow! Everyone thought he was an idiot......Actually, how smart is it to get rid of your Criminals!
I wonder just how many Parents will be turning their Kids into the Police when they arrive home with new TV's and Trainers? I find it quite funny that a lot of sports shops are being targeted, are trainers and hoodies the most important thing in these Moron's eyes?
Would you turn your child in if they came home with looted goods??
C3.....[disgust][disgust]
NickInTheNorth
09-Aug-11, 15:02
I wonder just how many Parents will be turning their Kids into the Police when they arrive home with new TV's and Trainers? I find it quite funny that a lot of sports shops are being targeted, are trainers and hoodies the most important thing in these Moron's eyes?
It is the easiest gear to carry away and sell
Would you turn your child in if they came home with looted goods??
My children would not in a million years behave like this, but if they did I would turn them in without hesitation
I should imagine that these last few nights has been a great recruiting tool for the BMP and other likeminded groups, and has most likely put back racial harmony for a great many years, and yet time and time again I've seen white anarchists at the front of the yobs, goading them on, before scooting off and leaving their erstwhile chums to take the flack.
Seems a bloke in his 60's who tried to stop the thugs was attacked by looters in Ealing he's critical and cause of "great concern" to police,..
This is pure and unadulterated criminal activity most of the time 'crapping on their own doorstep'; not exactly the actions of those 'disaffected' who want to destroy the rich, is it?
Was in Paris a fair while back and the naughty students were playing up.. so the Riot Police CRS were sent in, by god, they don't muck about! we were stuck in a line of traffic by the Place de la Concorde and were rather alarmed when half a dozen CRS just ran across the top of our car bonnet to get at 'em, Mrs Beks and I decided we'd not complain..
NickInTheNorth
09-Aug-11, 15:41
unfortunately the popular media like to present a simple message to the public regarding anything. This story however is many faceted and cannot be given a simple explanation.
Ethnicity is a factor.
Anarchy is a factor.
perceived disenfranchisement is a factor
cuts in public services are a factor
the global financial crisis is a factor
each person there is there for a whole catalogue of reasons, but principally they are there because their peers are there. It is the underlying reasons that need to be tackled, but unfortunately the only action that will be taken will be the criminal justice actions.
Another sticking plaster will be applied, but the patient will continue to haemorrhage.
I just hope that the required surgery and medical care will be given to UK plc in time - but I seriously doubt it. There will be more and worse of this criminal activity in the next few years, it will get worse each time. When you take away from the already under privileged eventually they have no reason not to riot.
The politicians need to take heed of what is happening and look to resolve the deep deep fissures that exist within british society.
John Little
09-Aug-11, 16:46
There are two quite separate issues going on here.
The first is the ability of government to protect life and property and maintain public order.
The second is the conditions which have raised up such an underclass in an area which 40 years ago was the heartland of a prosperous manufacturing area. Years of free market economics have sucked manufacturing jobs and apprenticeships out and exported them to China. The nation has been content to make its money from the financial sector and apply a sticking plaster of Welfare to unproductive youth. At the same time we build a culture which elevates wealth, consumerism and material possessions above service, community and personal integrity.
Why is everyone surprised?
This is not new as anyone who knows anything about our history can testify.
Back in the 1820s, 30s and 40s we had a growing and disengaged underclass who rioted and looted on a regular basis. It quietened down as the Industrial Revolution took off. But the underclass still rioted when it felt like it - massively in London in 1866 and 1867. The Sheffield riots of 1882; the widespread rioting of 1910 which were contained by troops and armed police. The Liverpool riots of 1919...
The wonder is that this has not happened before.
SunnyChick
09-Aug-11, 16:50
My children would not in a million years behave like this, but if they did I would turn them in without hesitation
Too right! So would I! So would my parents!
You don't get what you want in life by throwing a mass tantrum and resorting to crime. These mindless violent thugs absolutely MUST be made an example of!
toffee_pie
09-Aug-11, 16:54
these boyz in the hood brigade have no role to play in society and steal stuff they could not afford otherwise as they have no sense of morality.
pictures of a guy with a massive bag of tescos rice I saw, obviously he has a great future ahead of him.!
I hope they all get jailed tbh, burning down a building that survived two world wars is pure scum.
NickInTheNorth
09-Aug-11, 16:54
Stolen without shame from the Guardians coverage of the riots:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/09/london-riots-day-four-live-blog
An Egypt-based former Croydon resident, Sarah Carr, has written thoughtfully about the media coverage of the events of the past few days, and in particular the failure to get first-hand accounts from the rioters.
In summary I'm confused, and I wish I was in London so I could ask the kids what the they're doing and why. The media is showing us hour after hour of Outraged Upstanding Citizen all saying the same thing because Upstanding Citizens tend to hit journalists less. There is an echoing void when it comes to the other side of the story, a void that is being filled with image after horrible image and calls for looters to be flogged in public squares and theorising about the legitimate social political grievances that drove them to commit inexcusable acts. Both camps are as bad as each other.
Martin Luther King said that a riot is the language of the unheard, but Ralph Waldo Emmerson said what you do speaks so loudly I can't hear what you're saying. The media is not even trying to listen.
Too right! So would I! So would my parents!
You don't get what you want in life by throwing a mass tantrum and resorting to crime. These mindless violent thugs absolutely MUST be made an example of!
I agree SC but we all know that they wont be. If they get a fine they wont pay it, if they get community work orders they wont turn up and if they go to prison the do-gooders will get them off under human rights or some other lame excuse. Its time to get tough and I mean tough, hard labour, the birch or my preference, chop off their hands.
C3......:mad:[disgust]
Southern-Gal
09-Aug-11, 17:02
This is one of the reasons we want to move up to Caithness. We are not far north of Manchester and although it is nowhere near as bad as London we are seeing more and more crime and want out.
This is one of the reasons we want to move up to Caithness. We are not far north of Manchester and although it is nowhere near as bad as London we are seeing more and more crime and want out.
You are not the first to state that they want to leave England for safety reasons but I then worry that Caithness can only take so many and will probably end up just like England.
C3....:(
NickInTheNorth
09-Aug-11, 17:22
You are not the first to state that they want to leave England for safety reasons but I then worry that Caithness can only take so many and will probably end up just like England.
C3....:(
It will take a huge forced migration to have any chance of becoming anything like England. There really is a world of difference between communities in England and in the highlands and islands of Scotland.
To subsume that would take a massive invasion of people of a particular mindset. Most folks that suggest a move this far north seem to have a reasonable attitude to life.
Come on up Southern-Gal, you'll not regret it!
BREAKING NEWS!, The Riots will soon Be Over I've heard Gazza has gone back down to Tottenham with a four pack and some butties to calm the situation
Just wondering how long it is until we have an innocent bystander who gets killed by police in the midst of the mayhem? It is inevitable surely? #mediamanipulationofpublicopinion
You are not the first to state that they want to leave England for safety reasons but I then worry that Caithness can only take so many and will probably end up just like England.
C3....:(
God forbid.
The government wants to save money - they should just shoot all the rioters and save a fortune in dole payments!
A friend of mine lives in one of these areas and she's reporting scenes of vigilantes going after the rioters. I think it's been a dripping tap effect with low level crime not being tackled and they just keep getting away with things and bit by bit it escalates to the point they do what they want with no fear of justice.
Yoda the flump
09-Aug-11, 20:57
Just wondering how long it is until we have an innocent bystander who gets killed by police in the midst of the mayhem? It is inevitable surely? #mediamanipulationofpublicopinion
How long is it before and innocent person gets killed by the rioters, caught in a building set on fire by these little wasters?
The police will be damned for whatever they do by some.
What we need is a good torrential downpour for 2 or 3 days - it would stop the rioting far quicker than the police could. Unfortunately only a light intermittent drizzle is forecast for London and SE for next several days.
NickInTheNorth
09-Aug-11, 21:16
well that's you trying to post a photo on your hard drive, so just open up your firewall and share your ip address and we'll all be able to see it :)
John Little
09-Aug-11, 21:24
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/interactive/2011/aug/09/uk-riots-incident-map?CMP=twt_fd
a (http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/interactive/2011/aug/09/uk-riots-incident-map?CMP=twt_fd)nd Scotland may yet prove not to be immune...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/09/glasgow-boy-arrested-facebook-riots
well that's you trying to post a photo on your hard drive, so just open up your firewall and share your ip address and we'll all be able to see it :)
Lol Nick, not very good at posting photo's as you can tell but just been sent a couple that made me smile. The first one was looters at a Poundland and there was this fat woman running out with a dozen packs of crisps stuffed down the front of her jacket and the other was a yob trying to wrench a TV off the wall in Ladbrokes Birmingham, the wall bracket held firm and the lad ended up wrenching the front off the TV screen and went backwards landing on the floor. Hope he has a lump on the back of his head, no doubt he will be suing Ladbrokes for damages!!!
C3.....:roll::roll:
God forbid.
London, Bristol, Brum, Manchester. Batten down the hatches, its heading north.
London, Bristol, Brum, Manchester. Batten down the hatches, its heading north.
Tried already Bazeye, and got stamped on very quickly
http://news.stv.tv/scotland/west-central/265557-16-year-old-boy-held-by-police-over-facebook-post-to-incite-glasgow-riot/
The government wants to save money - they should just shoot all the rioters and save a fortune in dole payments!
if your going.to make a comment about a situation as serious as this then surely you should think about what your going to say rather than come out with something as obscene as this!!
In a situation where livelihoods are being lost and homes and lives destroyed this is just a stupid thing to say.
if your going.to make a comment about a situation as serious as this then surely you should think about what your going to say rather than come out with something as obscene as this!!
In a situation where livelihoods are being lost and homes and lives destroyed this is just a stupid thing to say.
It won't be long before a home owner or business owner shoots someone in the face with a shotgun as they come through a window. I won't cry.
Seems that Charlton and Millwall football fans, not known for their friendliness towards each other, mobbed up to repel the incoming invasion. Football hooligans and the EDL, dontcha just love'em. Wonder if this is mentioned in tomorrows papers? Doubt it somehow.
Rangers and Celtic?......what do you reckon?
So one guy shoots another in the face, and where does it stop?? Im certain you will shed a tear when the shooting goes on a state off emergency is raised and we are being compared to the likes off bahrain, syria, etc
So one guy shoots another in the face, and where does it stop?? Im certain you will shed a tear when the shooting goes on a state off emergency is raised and we are being compared to the likes off bahrain, syria, etc
I think it is too late for that. One American news reporter was pictured doing a piece to camera wearing a Kevlar helmet and bullet proof vest.
Well a comment like yours is exacrly the issue you are basically backing an uncontrolable escalation off violence which would make the situation worse 10 fold
Well a comment like yours is exacrly the issue you are basically backing an uncontrolable escalation off violence which would make the situation worse 10 fold
I wouldn't say that. I just won't have any sympathy for any of mummy's little darlings if it goes wrong for them. Would you?
I would be and am upset that a civilised country could stoop so low so fast. Having been stuck in one off the "arab uprisings" this year already it saddens me to see my own country hit the depths off whats happening in bawically 3rd world countries who are held under regimes
I think it is too late for that. One American news reporter was pictured doing a piece to camera wearing a Kevlar helmet and bullet proof vest.Yeah but the yanks are wuss's, have yer seen 'em play football.
All that is needed is the FA to say they've had to cancel the football season on H&S grounds due to the police refusing to attend matches as they are too stretched and the riots will be a thing of the past.
oldmarine
10-Aug-11, 03:41
I watched the rioting going on in London on American TV. It did not look too good to me. I'm not sure I understand what the rioting is all about.
I watched the rioting going on in London on American TV. It did not look too good to me. I'm not sure I understand what the rioting is all about.It isn't actually about anything. There is no cause or grievance. There is no huge wrong that has been done, there is no outrageous injustice that has been carried out that they are coming together to rally against.
It is pure scutters who are operating in an opportunistic manner to cause damage and go thieving because they can't think of anything better to do. So numb minded are these lowlifes they can't even think of anything original, they've seen some chaos in London and then they think it's a good idea to replicate this on their doorstep.
Some of these cretins are trying to use futile excuses like they are rising up against the rich, what utter tosh. They are destroying and vandalising property that belongs to normal decent people, they are jeopardising business that employ normal decent people and are often owned by decent hard working people.
Even they do not understand what they are doing. They are just doing it because someone else did it and it looks like a 'buzz'.
It is now time for wavey Davey to actually make cancelling his holiday worth while and stop talking soundbites and cobblers. Give the authorities the powers they need to get in there and put a stop to this. He needs to grow a pair and prove he is actually up to the job of running a country.
Southern-Gal
10-Aug-11, 09:55
You are not the first to state that they want to leave England for safety reasons but I then worry that Caithness can only take so many and will probably end up just like England.
C3....:(
Well if it does it wont be anything to do with me and my family :) x
Yeah but the yanks are wuss's, have yer seen 'em play football.
Maybe Phill but I do believe that they still shoot looters and quite right too!!!!
C3......:roll:[disgust]
NickInTheNorth
10-Aug-11, 10:08
I watched the rioting going on in London on American TV. It did not look too good to me. I'm not sure I understand what the rioting is all about.
Oldmarine - the best analysis I have read is here (http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/08/201189165143946889.html?utm_content=automateplus&utm_campaign=Trial5&utm_source=SocialFlow&utm_medium=MasterAccount&utm_term=tweets#.TkJHfuH3MQx.facebook).
It gets to the heart of what is going on, everyone should read this, it gets closer to the truth of a very complex situation than any other analysis I have read.
It does not excuse the rioting and looting, however it does accept that the riots did not happen in a vacuum.
Take a look and read it with an open mind, then come back and agree, or tell me what the writer has got wrong.
I thought the article was very good. It asks the question that no one seems to be interested in answering which is "What creates the willingness to behave like this" these are kids, young people who go to school here and have been brought up in British society. We can blame parents if you like, schools maybe, we can blame the lack of discipline, we can even blame religion, racism or the colour of peoples' skin but the only answer is a political one. When politicians cut services to the young, the desperate, the isolated and the vulnerable then they create fertile ground for criminals and gangs to step in to offer prestige, belonging and money. Never mind escape through drugs.
How does a parent fight gang culture on their own? How does a single mum working two jobs ensure her son stays on the straight and narrow when the pressure from those who want to use and exploit him offer so much more than she can? Youth workers, Police, sure start family support workers, health visitors, community workers, probation officers, play schemes all do a vital jobs in supporting families and work hard to try to minimise the influence of gangs. All have been subject to budget cuts and at the risk of banging an old old drum.......... The likes of vodafone, and philip green avoid millions of pounds in tax.
Seems like we need to get outraged and not just at the rioters and the criminals organising them for their own ends. We need to be outraged that governments have created a society where the lure of criminality is stronger than anything else even family. That they have created a society where the mega rich can walk away without meeting their financial obligations and politicians meet them for dinner and smile over champagne whilst those working hard to try to create communities and opportunities lose their jobs and have their budgets cut.
Southern-Gal
10-Aug-11, 10:49
Does nobody think that it is nature and that young men of all races are instinctively drawn towards war/riot/gang type activities?
Throughout the ages young men have gone to war. From Zulu tribes to oriental races and throughout the world young men have lost their lives in their thousands to war, the ones that make it home have been heroes and yes the less that made it home the less there would be to 'manage' until they settle down with a family.
Now that we dont need connon fodder as it is all done with machines, nuclear, whatever they are not needed and so the numbers have got out of hand.
Civilisation does a lot to suppress this behaviour in them but when they are too many the war instinct takes over somewhat.
We are after all just another mammal.
Am I altogether wrong in thinking like this?
Get the army in and flatten the bloody lot of them,these idiots are not doing it as a reprisal for the guy who was shot.Even his father was on the TV saying you are not doing this in the name of my son.
Thes are just young idiots who are using this as an oppertunity to wreck everything and create total anarchy,if they have a beef with the police then take it out on the police but to loot and burn innocent peoples homes,shops and cars means its time to send in the army and yes,use tear gas and water cannons and if that fails get the rubber bullets out.This society is to bloody soft ,to many do gooders and to many people take the moral high ground"oh you cant do that".....well these so called human beings have no regard for law or indeed their very own society so why should the authorities have any regard for them.For the sake of the innocent law abiding people on the street,for the sake of their propreties and businessess,use force and preferably quite brutal force because thats what they deserve.
agree 100%
there is no excuse! so what if there have been cuts made, so what if people are bored! that is not an excuse for why these people are injuring innocent people and ruining their businesses and property and looting peoples shops its a bloody disgrace and we shouldn't be tolerating it one bit!
we are quick enough to deploy the army in foreign countries where there are riots and what not maybe its about time we got an american style riot force in place maybe get the american riot force over and just bombard these arrogant obnoxious idiots with rubber bullets, tear gas, rubber explosives and bean bag bullets, who cares if they get injured they obviously don't care for anyone else so why should we care about their safety!!!
if we don't hit them hard and fast they will know they can do what they want with little consequence and will continue to do so and it will just get worse and worse until the whole country is in ruins like some of the third world countries
big deal there have been a lot of cuts we are still living in a relatively nice country a lot better than most countries and we are a lot better off than most we have no right to be rioting and burning down the country and blaming it on the government, those people are rioting the government never forced them to riot and rioting is not going to make anything better if anything its making it all worse as now they have to spend more money to control the riots and fix all the damage which in turn might cause more cuts so they really just making it worse on themselves in my opinion
You are absolutely right we need to come down hard to restore law and order and arrest those involved. We need to stop this NOW and if it takes the army to do it then so be it. Then what? Prison. So we get out a load of people who are worse when they come out than when they went in. If we don't address the underlying issues then we run the risk of this happening all over again. You are right we live in a pretty nice country but how many of us pontificating on here know what it is like to be young, poor, attending a failing school, not very bright, with a parent that doesn't care/is drunk/on drugs/ in prison in 2011 and is being offered money, status and opportunities by criminals? Would we think it's pretty nice then? I seriously don't know the answer to that by the way.
Kevin Milkins
10-Aug-11, 11:03
RIP Broken Britain.. You went soft on discipline!..You went soft on crime.. Parents were told.. 'No you can't smack the kids'....Teachers were prevented from chastising kids in schools.. The police couldn't clip a troublemaker round the ear.. Kids had rights blah blah blah.. Well done Britain..You shall reap what you sow.. We have lost a whole generation!!:confused
NickInTheNorth
10-Aug-11, 11:04
Does nobody think that it is nature and that young men of all races are instinctively drawn towards war/riot/gang type activities?
<lots snipped>
Last night on the wee bit that scrolls across the screen on some news programmes (cannot remember which) the following very interesting words appeared:
We should remember that happy and content people do not riot
but how many of us pontificating on here know what it is like to be young, poor, attending a failing school, not very bright, with a parent that doesn't care/is drunk/on drugs/ in prison in 2011 and is being offered money, status and opportunities by criminals? Would we think it's pretty nice then? I seriously don't know the answer to that by the way.
i was brought up by a single parent who drank and didn't care much and was poor and i had a less than shiny past to say the least but i turned out alright in the end so you cant blame a poor background and bad parenting for this! these people are making the decision to riot all by themselves they are old enough to understand what they are doing and i am pretty sure there are people out there rioting who have caring better off families so i don't accept that they are rioting because of the lack of money and good parenting, and if that is the reason that still isn't an excuse if they want more money get a bloody job and stop complaining we got it good in the uk thats why so many people come here seeking asylum and work and education
maybe exporting all these idiots over to afghanistan or poland or some of the really bad third world countries will make them realize how good they got it in the uk and make them see sense, make them do jail time in a third country jail instead of a uk jail with tv a comfy bed and a tuck shop twice a week and exercise and recreation time daily, put them in a cell with 30 people defacating and urinating in their living space and in bottles or in the corner and they would soon change their attitude
RIP Broken Britain.. You went soft on discipline!..You went soft on crime.. Parents were told.. 'No you can't smack the kids'....Teachers were prevented from chastising kids in schools.. The police couldn't clip a troublemaker round the ear.. Kids had rights blah blah blah.. Well done Britain..You shall reap what you sow.. We have lost a whole generation!!:confused
Concur completely Kevin.
I am afraid Kevin, you are right...
You are not the first to state that they want to leave England for safety reasons but I then worry that Caithness can only take so many and will probably end up just like England.
C3....:(
It probably will as councils are already sending baddies up here for a FRESH START, whatever next.
It probably will as councils are already sending baddies up here for a FRESH START, whatever next.
Out of interest, where did you hear this? Have you a link?
RIP Broken Britain.. You went soft on discipline!..You went soft on crime.. Parents were told.. 'No you can't smack the kids'....Teachers were prevented from chastising kids in schools.. The police couldn't clip a troublemaker round the ear.. Kids had rights blah blah blah.. Well done Britain..You shall reap what you sow.. We have lost a whole generation!!:confused
I agree 100% and if media and politicos keep painting this sorry episode as mindless thuggery time after time then we won't prevent it from happening again.
A very interesting fact just come through......One of the first people to go through the courts in London was a 31 yr old Teacher on a charge of burglary which he has admitted to. So I think that crushes the do-gooders theory that its kids from poor homes causing the trouble.
C3.....:eek::mad:
essex boy
10-Aug-11, 12:54
Time to dig out the moth balled water cannon and rubber bullets I reckon!
I have to admire this lot in Southall. Sikh's are well known for their hard work, peaceful lifestyle and a strong bond with their religion. I think it is brilliant that they dont rely on the police to guard their sacred temple. As I suspect most of the rioters are gutless cowards I cant see them ever mixing it with these Sikh's, especially the Guy at the entrance with the baseball bat....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14470772
C3....:roll:;):)
A very interesting fact just come through......One of the first people to go through the courts in London was a 31 yr old Teacher on a charge of burglary which he has admitted to. So I think that crushes the do-gooders theory that its kids from poor homes causing the trouble.
C3.....:eek::mad:
Teaching assistant, I assume he will be sacked and (hopefully) will not be entitled to any benefits. These people will regret for the rest of their lives their involvement in this madness. And that is as it should be.
A very interesting fact just come through......One of the first people to go through the courts in London was a 31 yr old Teacher on a charge of burglary which he has admitted to. So I think that crushes the do-gooders theory that its kids from poor homes causing the trouble.
C3.....:eek::mad:
Also crushes your immigrant theory that you have yet to retract.
I thought the article was very good. It asks the question that no one seems to be interested in answering which is "What creates the willingness to behave like this" these are kids, young people who go to school here and have been brought up in British society. We can blame parents if you like, schools maybe, we can blame the lack of discipline, we can even blame religion, racism or the colour of peoples' skin but the only answer is a political one. When politicians cut services to the young, the desperate, the isolated and the vulnerable then they create fertile ground for criminals and gangs to step in to offer prestige, belonging and money. Never mind escape through drugs.How does a parent fight gang culture on their own? How does a single mum working two jobs ensure her son stays on the straight and narrow when the pressure from those who want to use and exploit him offer so much more than she can? Youth workers, sure start family support workers, health visitors, community workers, probation officers, play schemes all do a vital jobs in supporting families and work hard to try to minimise the influence of gangs. All have been subject to budget cuts and at the risk of banging an old old drum.......... The likes of vodafone, and philip green avoid millions of pounds in tax. Seems like we need to get outraged and not just at the rioters and the criminals organising them for their own ends. We need to be outraged that governments have created a society where the lure of criminality is stronger than anything else even family. That they have created a society where the mega rich can walk away without meeting their financial obligations and politicians meet them for dinner and smile over champagne whilst those working hard to try to create communities and opportunities lose their jobs and have their budgets cut.
Sorry Squidge, I dont buy into this. It has nothing to do with cuts at all. Its about discipline and respect from an early age. My Father was born in real hard times, he was the youngest of 11 children and used to play out in bare feet because he didn't have a pair of shoes of his own until he went to work at 15. He went through the 30's depression and went on to fight and help to make this country great and thankfully came home to bring up his Family and work hard all his life. He brought me and my Brother up brilliantly through the difficult years after the war. After all this he didn't decide to become a criminal, break into shoe shops so that he could have a pair of shoes to call his own, he didn't break into electrical shops and walk out with radio's and record players under his arm. And because of my upbringing I have been the same and never thought of breaking the law or taking what isn't mine. So please don't give me all that tripe about cuts and hard times, it just doesn't wash. Kevin is right, Britain is broken and it's only started since the 60's and since a lot of Americanism's reached our shores, knife carrying, gun carrying, looting were never heard of until then!!!
We need to get tough and I mean tough otherwise no one will be able to walk the streets safely!!
C3.......:roll::mad:[disgust]
Also crushes your immigrant theory that you have yet to retract.
Not yet Ju, he was a black man and I am waiting to see how many arrested have black skin and I would put money on it that most of them have and come originally from immigrant families!! If more white people than black are up in court I will then apologise!!
C3.......:eek:
equusdriving
10-Aug-11, 15:00
If more white people than black are up in court I will then apologise!!
C3.......:eek:
Somehow i cant see that happening !!!
I thought the article was very good. It asks the question that no one seems to be interested in answering which is "What creates the willingness to behave like this" these are kids, young people who go to school here and have been brought up in British society. We can blame parents if you like, schools maybe, we can blame the lack of discipline, we can even blame religion, racism or the colour of peoples' skin but the only answer is a political one. When politicians cut services to the young, the desperate, the isolated and the vulnerable then they create fertile ground for criminals and gangs to step in to offer prestige, belonging and money. Never mind escape through drugs.How does a parent fight gang culture on their own? How does a single mum working two jobs ensure her son stays on the straight and narrow when the pressure from those who want to use and exploit him offer so much more than she can? Youth workers, sure start family support workers, health visitors, community workers, probation officers, play schemes all do a vital jobs in supporting families and work hard to try to minimise the influence of gangs. All have been subject to budget cuts and at the risk of banging an old old drum.......... The likes of vodafone, and philip green avoid millions of pounds in tax. Seems like we need to get outraged and not just at the rioters and the criminals organising them for their own ends. We need to be outraged that governments have created a society where the lure of criminality is stronger than anything else even family. That they have created a society where the mega rich can walk away without meeting their financial obligations and politicians meet them for dinner and smile over champagne whilst those working hard to try to create communities and opportunities lose their jobs and have their budgets cut.
Agree with u C3... The entitlement of the above highlighted is becoming tiresome!
Growing up we had 'less than nothing'. But we made it.
Where I live the entitlement thing is pretty negligable....I was recently in the North of Scotland.I saw what goes on....I don't know about England as it has been a few years but................
I would like to add... I am having a tough time supporting people won't work/didn't work, who didn't save up for their retirement, didn't look after themselves, and generally were as someone stated on here 'a waste of space'! Seeems a bit of a 'Welfare State'! That can only work for so long and poof.....we just ran out of money......
Not yet Ju, he was a black man and I am waiting to see how many arrested have black skin and I would put money on it that most of them have and come originally from immigrant families!! If more white people than black are up in court I will then apologise!!
C3.......:eek:
NEWSFLASH: there are NO black British People/citizens. Incredible. You are so prejudice and ignorant it is unbelievable.
A very interesting fact just come through......One of the first people to go through the courts in London was a 31 yr old Teacher on a charge of burglary which he has admitted to. So I think that crushes the do-gooders theory that its kids from poor homes causing the trouble.
C3.....:eek::mad:
Yea but..you don't know if he had a bad upbringing, or his parents were drug addicts, or a single mum, or he's peed off 'cos Philip Green ain't paid his taxes, or....
Teaching assistant, I assume he will be sacked and (hopefully) will not be entitled to any benefits. These people will regret for the rest of their lives their involvement in this madness. And that is as it should be.
You mean Alexis Bailey?.
David Burns, defending Bailey, said: "The defendant is somebody who works full time. He works in a primary school in Stockwell between 8.30am and 3.30pm. He earns £1,000 a month and pays £550 a month in rent." The Stockwell school website describes Bailey as a learning mentor. [oh well, can see why he was intent on nicking - poor bloke]
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/10/england-riots-primary-croydon-burglary
oldmarine
10-Aug-11, 15:53
Sorry Squidge, I dont buy into this. It has nothing to do with cuts at all. Its about discipline and respect from an early age. My Father was born in real hard times, he was the youngest of 11 children and used to play out in bare feet because he didn't have a pair of shoes of his own until he went to work at 15. He went through the 30's depression and went on to fight and help to make this country great and thankfully came home to bring up his Family and work hard all his life. He brought me and my Brother up brilliantly through the difficult years after the war. After all this he didn't decide to become a criminal, break into shoe shops so that he could have a pair of shoes to call his own, he didn't break into electrical shops and walk out with radio's and record players under his arm. And because of my upbringing I have been the same and never thought of breaking the law or taking what isn't mine. So please don't give me all that tripe about cuts and hard times, it just doesn't wash. Kevin is right, Britain is broken and it's only started since the 60's and since a lot of Americanism's reached our shores, knife carrying, gun carrying, looting were never heard of until then!!!
We need to get tough and I mean tough otherwise no one will be able to walk the streets safely!!
C3.......:roll::mad:[disgust]
I agree with Corrie's comments. I just read an update on the news regards Englands rioting. It appears to be out of control. It appears to be mostly by youth. When I was a youth my parents would control their youth. When I was older with my own children and they were my responsibility I would attempt to control them and was usually successful. I now sometimes care for my grandchildren and consider them to be my responsibility and I apply discipline whenever necessary. England at this moment is having serious problems that will have to be dealt with. Their government if responsible better take care of the problems.
NEWSFLASH: there are NO black British People/citizens. Incredible. You are so prejudice and ignorant it is unbelievable.
Please explain yourself Ju, I dont understand your post except the bit which is a direct insult at myself!
C3.....:eek:[disgust]
Please explain yourself Ju, I dont understand your post except the bit which is a direct insult at myself!
C3.....:eek:[disgust]
According to yourself, an immigrant is identified by the dark tones of his/her skin.
According to yourself, an immigrant is identified by the dark tones of his/her skin.
OK Ju, I admit my wording was wrong. What you have to remember is that I was born in the 40's and the first wave of immigrants to this country came in the 50's mainly from Jamaica and the West Indies so I wrongly refer to these Afro-Caribbeans as Immigrants to our country but of course, we have others of white, yellow and brown skin that are also immigrants so I will be more careful of my wording in the future. So I apologise and if everyone can change my wording from black or immigrant to Afro-Caribbean or children of Afro-Caribbean I would be most grateful. I realise that a lot of the looters are born here but are from Afro-Caribbean stock and that is what worries me. The fact that Scotland yard has to set up a unit to deal with Black gangs should alarm others to. They haven't set up a unit to deal with white gangs have they? And the old saying that a dog born in a stable is still a dog and not a horse rings true for me. There will always be a difference between cultures and no laws will ever change that. Just look at all the video's on the riots and it is the black kids that are the majority and also when you watch Crimewatch the mugshots are mainly non white.
Ok, you are going to think I am an out and out racist now Ju but I am just concerned at what is happening to our country, I have watched it devolve from a nice quiet friendly place in the 50's to rioting and looting in the streets, kids carrying knives and guns, muggings daily on the streets...these are all things that came from the deep south of America along with the early immigrants from the West Indies!!
OK, I will wait to be shot down in flames now but that is my take on life in Britain over the last 50 years.
C3.....:(
Aaldtimer
10-Aug-11, 17:54
C3, I too was born in the '40s...I can remember the razor gangs in Glasgow in the 50's, and the Teddy boys with their bike chains and knives, then along came the 60's with the Mods and Rockers melees...these were all white affairs as I remember!
Here's an interesting take on the situation:- http://criticalmassfilm.com/blog/?p=50
Not yet Ju, he was a black man and I am waiting to see how many arrested have black skin and I would put money on it that most of them have and come originally from immigrant families!! If more white people than black are up in court I will then apologise!!
C3.......:eek:
If you look at the pictures the majority of the rioters are white, not black. Immigrants tend to be grateful to live in such a beautiful, accepting (for the main part) country and treat it with respect and work hard. It is the endemic population of scroungers and thugs that are causing the riots...
If you look at the pictures the majority of the rioters are white, not black. Immigrants tend to be grateful to live in such a beautiful, accepting (for the main part) country and treat it with respect and work hard. It is the endemic population of scroungers and thugs that are causing the riots...
You must be looking at different photo's and video's to me Leanne!!
C3....:eek::roll:
C3, I too was born in the '40s...I can remember the razor gangs in Glasgow in the 50's, and the Teddy boys with their bike chains and knives, then along came the 60's with the Mods and Rockers melees...these were all white affairs as I remember!
Here's an interesting take on the situation:- http://criticalmassfilm.com/blog/?p=50
I remember them well but never recall them setting fire to other peoples homes with them still inside or looting!!!...Never heard of in those days!!
C3.....:eek::roll:
NickInTheNorth
10-Aug-11, 18:15
You must be looking at different photo's and video's to me Leanne!!
C3....:eek::roll:
Sorry Corrie, I think you'll find that Leanne is looking at the pictures with an open mind.
It is amazing what you see with one of those.
The eyes see nothing, it's the brain that sees.
Now all of you who jumped down my throat can just jump straight back out again! I didnt say that a poor background causes rioters! Nothing excuses the appalling, greed filled, criminal behaviour we have seen over the last few days.
I said that society has allowed the weak, the vulnerable, the disaffected and the poor to become fertile grounds for criminal gangs to operate. Growing up poor and isolated today is very different that being poor and isolated in the 40s, 50s, 60s,70s even 80s and 90s. The rise of gang culture and the increase in guns and drugs is evidence of that. Add to that the decline of the family and of community and you have people with no support and nowhere to turn other than the criminal gangs who offer respect and prestige and money - corrupt as it might be. The decline of the Church and its influence on morality, the decline of discipline and respect for authority and the change in the way media report on young people over the last fifty years has all impacted on society and made for fractured communities - communities in location only - they have no heart.
The fact that we all did ok should mean that we want those who dont have our nouse to get the same opportunities. No child is born a thug, a waster, a delinquent - they learn what they see and what they see around them in many cases is no hope, no future and pressure to conform to some wild gang code of behaviour which they need to be really strong to resist. If we all managed it then we should be out there sharing with young people how we did it because when you are young you sometimes cant see a way through stuff. You have no resilience - no one tells you that no matter how bad it is it can get better. See if thats the only thing my kids learn from me I will be delighted because only by knowing that can you have hope. If no one teaches you that and you dont see that, then you are just lost. Cutting front line services to deprived communitiesand the police that look after them whilst allowing the super rich to walk away with millions and millions of pounds of what should have been taxpayers money is immoral and disgusting.
So no, poverty, poor parenting, academic mediocrity, lack of opportunities dont make for rioting out of control thugs but they create the environment for bad people to take advantage for their own wicked agenda.
Sorry Corrie, I think you'll find that Leanne is looking at the pictures with an open mind.
It is amazing what you see with one of those.
The eyes see nothing, it's the brain that sees.
OK Nick, what does your brain see here???
I think the black minority is the majority in these pics from Scotland Yard!!!
I knew my eyes weren't deceiving me!!!!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/metropolitanpolice/sets/72157627267892973/
C3.....:roll:[disgust]
OK Nick, what does your brain see here???
I think the black minority is the majority in these pics from Scotland Yard!!!
I knew my eyes weren't deceiving me!!!!
C3.....:roll:[disgust]
Their colour is immaterial. These are not in any large part recent arrivals, nor likely to be first generation - they grew up in British Society and it is British Society that needs to examine itself and accept that it has a large part to play in sorting out this mess that it allowed to develop in the first place.
I must be a very un racist person because when I see pictures of bunches of people I just see people. I guess I would be a pretty useless witness :roll:
NickInTheNorth
10-Aug-11, 19:00
Totally agree with you squidge.
Most of the knee jerk tabloid spouting reactionaries would cause more trouble than already exists if their solutions were implemented.
Rioting and looting are WRONG
I make no excuses for those taking part - they are criminals and should be treated as such.
BUT and it really is a big BUT if the government does not take remedial action to make the people that live in the areas that have experienced the riots and looting feel part of society they will not stop the rioting - it may go away for a short time, but it will be back.
The police need to get back in control of the areas that have been n go areas for far too long. The gangs need to be destroyed, the gang members identified and prosecuted as soon as they do anything criminal. However alongside that we need to ensure that the people in these areas are given the opportunity to get off the rock bottom.
Facilities for young people are desperately needed. Training opportunities need to be provided. Remedial education needs to be available. Drugs rehab MUST be provided and must be used - not as a matter of choice but as part and parcel of the criminal justice system.
It will cost money, lots of money, but far far less than doing nothing and simply washing our hands of the whole situation and blaming poor parenting as Cameron seems keen to do.
For him to say as he did this morning that the police do not need any more funding because they proved last night that they can get 16000 police on the street fills me with foreboding. That was 16000 officers by cancelling all police leave getting all the specials on duty, working some of them for 30 hours straight and leaving the rest of England denuded of cover to the extend that greater Manchester Police had insufficient manpower to deal with the rioting on their patch.
This country is heading down the pan a a rate of knots, and unless the middle classes of this country take off their blinkers, stop believing as gospel every poisonous word written in the Mail, and start to actually care for their fellow man as they should, then the disturbances we have seen recently will start to look benign in the next few years.
People are being demonised for not working in a country has no jobs available. There rights to a secure roof over their head is going to be taken away so that they have the opportunity to buy a house, fuel and food prices are going through the roof, and the government - and most parliamentarians are incapable of empathising with the conditions in which these people are being forced to exist.
Their colour is immaterial. These are not in any large part recent arrivals, nor likely to be first generation - they grew up in British Society and it is British Society that needs to examine itself and accept that it has a large part to play in sorting out this mess that it allowed to develop in the first place.
And the need for Scotland Yard to have a specific unit to deal with black on black shootings and knifing's is.......?????
C3....:roll:
NickInTheNorth
10-Aug-11, 19:10
OK Nick, what does your brain see here???
I think the black minority is the majority in these pics from Scotland Yard!!!
I knew my eyes weren't deceiving me!!!!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/metropolitanpolice/sets/72157627267892973/
C3.....:roll:[disgust]
I see a random selection of images of people not yet identified by police. Skin colour is immaterial as regards wether someone is an immigrant or not. Your previous assertion that immigration started in the 1950's is utter rubbish. There are black skinned people in the UK that can trace back there ancestry in the UK to the 17th century.
If you take a snap shot of a group of people in an area in which the majority of the population is black then, surprise surprise, there will be a lot of black people in the picture.
To make the current problems out to be a racial issue is to totally miss the point. The underlying problem is a total lack of opportunity for a significant section of society, and that a significant section of British Society believe these people are sub human.
Totally agree with you squidge.
Most of the knee jerk tabloid spouting reactionaries would cause more trouble than already exists if their solutions were implemented.
Rioting and looting are WRONG
I make no excuses for those taking part - they are criminals and should be treated as such.
BUT and it really is a big BUT if the government does not take remedial action to make the people that live in the areas that have experienced the riots and looting feel part of society they will not stop the rioting - it may go away for a short time, but it will be back.
The police need to get back in control of the areas that have been n go areas for far too long. The gangs need to be destroyed, the gang members identified and prosecuted as soon as they do anything criminal. However alongside that we need to ensure that the people in these areas are given the opportunity to get off the rock bottom.
Facilities for young people are desperately needed. Training opportunities need to be provided. Remedial education needs to be available. Drugs rehab MUST be provided and must be used - not as a matter of choice but as part and parcel of the criminal justice system.
It will cost money, lots of money, but far far less than doing nothing and simply washing our hands of the whole situation and blaming poor parenting as Cameron seems keen to do.
For him to say as he did this morning that the police do not need any more funding because they proved last night that they can get 16000 police on the street fills me with foreboding. That was 16000 officers by cancelling all police leave getting all the specials on duty, working some of them for 30 hours straight and leaving the rest of England denuded of cover to the extend that greater Manchester Police had insufficient manpower to deal with the rioting on their patch.
This country is heading down the pan a a rate of knots, and unless the middle classes of this country take off their blinkers, stop believing as gospel every poisonous word written in the Mail, and start to actually care for their fellow man as they should, then the disturbances we have seen recently will start to look benign in the next few years.
People are being demonised for not working in a country has no jobs available. There rights to a secure roof over their head is going to be taken away so that they have the opportunity to buy a house, fuel and food prices are going through the roof, and the government - and most parliamentarians are incapable of empathising with the conditions in which these people are being forced to exist.
The very last thing we should be doing is pandering in any way to the all the different reasons being bandied about. No one knows the reason. The rioters that I have seen interviewed or recorded don't know the reason. You might think you know the reason, but, you would be wrong. Treat the simptom appropriately, and the cause will go away.
There were no opportunities back in the early 1900's Nick for my Father, no youth clubs, no job prospects, no shoes and hardly any clothes. Please dont give me that bleeding heart rubbish, life is what you make it, black or white, rich or poor!!!
C3.....:roll:
Totally agree with you squidge.
Most of the knee jerk tabloid spouting reactionaries would cause more trouble than already exists if their solutions were implemented.
Rioting and looting are WRONG
I make no excuses for those taking part - they are criminals and should be treated as such.
BUT and it really is a big BUT if the government does not take remedial action to make the people that live in the areas that have experienced the riots and looting feel part of society they will not stop the rioting - it may go away for a short time, but it will be back.
The police need to get back in control of the areas that have been n go areas for far too long. The gangs need to be destroyed, the gang members identified and prosecuted as soon as they do anything criminal. However alongside that we need to ensure that the people in these areas are given the opportunity to get off the rock bottom.
Facilities for young people are desperately needed. Training opportunities need to be provided. Remedial education needs to be available. Drugs rehab MUST be provided and must be used - not as a matter of choice but as part and parcel of the criminal justice system.
It will cost money, lots of money, but far far less than doing nothing and simply washing our hands of the whole situation and blaming poor parenting as Cameron seems keen to do.
For him to say as he did this morning that the police do not need any more funding because they proved last night that they can get 16000 police on the street fills me with foreboding. That was 16000 officers by cancelling all police leave getting all the specials on duty, working some of them for 30 hours straight and leaving the rest of England denuded of cover to the extend that greater Manchester Police had insufficient manpower to deal with the rioting on their patch.
This country is heading down the pan a a rate of knots, and unless the middle classes of this country take off their blinkers, stop believing as gospel every poisonous word written in the Mail, and start to actually care for their fellow man as they should, then the disturbances we have seen recently will start to look benign in the next few years.
People are being demonised for not working in a country has no jobs available. There rights to a secure roof over their head is going to be taken away so that they have the opportunity to buy a house, fuel and food prices are going through the roof, and the government - and most parliamentarians are incapable of empathising with the conditions in which these people are being forced to exist.
And to top it all off Cameron still is apparently not listening to all the noise all around him, preferring instead to dictate what his government are going to do about the whole sorry saga,
an epetition to cut rioters benefits, assuming they are on benefits of course, water cannons and plastic bullets.
Despite popular belief that there is but one reason behind all of this, in my opinion these riots are from a wide variety of very unhappy individuals, countrywide and to me that surely must be saying something to those in Westminster, because no section of the british society is safe from Britain's current economic crisis
or the way the present government are seeking to resolve this mess.
NickInTheNorth
10-Aug-11, 19:28
The world is a very different place now Corrie
The mass media did not exist, did not constantly peddle the myth that we are what we own.
The wealthy in society believed that they had a responsibility to others less fortunate.
We were a manufacturing nation and an empire and as a result there were job opportunities for all - if they could be bothered.
We taxed people according to their ability to pay.
The myth that what we did then should guide what we do now is either totally ridiculous, n which case let's move on and deal with society as it now exists. Or is correct in which case lets deal with issues in an appropriate fashion, let the government re write the tax rules to make it progressive, lets have a conscript army and post them all over the empire, lets get our sleeves rolled up and get dirty making things, lets employ draughtsmen to draw plans...
Let's deal with todays problems with todays reality, not try to deal with todays problems whilst looking at part of hstory.
The world is a very different place now Corrie
The mass media did not exist, did not constantly peddle the myth that we are what we own.
The wealthy in society believed that they had a responsibility to others less fortunate.
We were a manufacturing nation and an empire and as a result there were job opportunities for all - if they could be bothered.
We taxed people according to their ability to pay.
The myth that what we did then should guide what we do now is either totally ridiculous, n which case let's move on and deal with society as it now exists. Or is correct in which case lets deal with issues in an appropriate fashion, let the government re write the tax rules to make it progressive, lets have a conscript army and post them all over the empire, lets get our sleeves rolled up and get dirty making things, lets employ draughtsmen to draw plans...
Let's deal with todays problems with todays reality, not try to deal with todays problems whilst looking at part of hstory.
Yes you are right Nick, its too late to change history now and todays problems are slightly different. I think I might drop out of my own thread for a while but please carry on without me!!
C3.....:roll:
God almighty, why oh why is it always 'the government' to blame or 'society has allowed'? there have always been and always will be 'deprived' areas, mostly 'cos they turn it into that themselves. Boredom? my arse, most of these thugs (whoops poor downtrodden masses) have ample 'things to do' within yards, let alone miles. I lived in the West Mids for 11 years and have a fair idea what's available, I saw very few Asians joining in the free for all, and their areas - I can assure you are deprived.... and what the hell has any of this got to do with deprived communities being affected by rich gits ripping off HMRC?
The coppers tried to destroy gang activity - ain't that how it all kicked off?.
NO ONE knows exactly why, not the experts in these fields, nor even the bloody looters have any idea; they just did..so how the hell can orgers (unless they're closet 'experts') have any idea?.. we all have our thoughts and ideas
Presumable these apologists are right now packing their gear to head south and help - yea right!
I see the e-petition No 10 to take benefits off rioters has been overloaded - I wonder why?
PS And I don't read the Daily Mail whatever the hell that's got to do with it..(or the Guardian)
http://i805.photobucket.com/albums/yy337/Phill_Rawlins/itsalljustrandom/looters.jpg
How many 'black' 'immigrant' faces in this picture?
EDIT: oops, I meant How not Ho!
If you look at the pictures the majority of the rioters are white, not black. Immigrants tend to be grateful to live in such a beautiful, accepting (for the main part) country and treat it with respect and work hard. It is the endemic population of scroungers and thugs that are causing the riots...
I think you will find that the 'Media' profile what they believe in.....We have a Newspaper and TV Station in our area who most of the time only give the description of the suspect if they are a certain color......I'm not taking sides...But it is true!
NickInTheNorth
10-Aug-11, 20:51
http://i805.photobucket.com/albums/yy337/Phill_Rawlins/itsalljustrandom/looters.jpg
Ho many 'black' 'immigrant' faces in this picture?
Fantastic bit of photoshopping there.
The funny thing is both yesterday and today there has been a black armed police officer standing just in front of that window during Cameron's press briefing.
As I've never noticed one there before I did suspect a little bit of shall we say "product placement".
http://i805.photobucket.com/albums/yy337/Phill_Rawlins/itsalljustrandom/looters.jpg
Ho many 'black' 'immigrant' faces in this picture?
Be careful who you call a HO.....Can get you in big trouble!
NickInTheNorth
10-Aug-11, 20:56
Be careful who you call a HO.....Can get you in big trouble!
Clearly Phill was referring to Cameron, and as he has been getting shafted by Murdoch for years the accusation probably fits...
People are being demonised for not working in a country has no jobs available. There rights to a secure roof over their head is going to be taken away so that they have the opportunity to buy a house, fuel and food prices are going through the roof, and the government - and most parliamentarians are incapable of empathising with the conditions in which these people are being forced to exist.[/QUOTE]
I agree with most of what you say but there are jobs....Yes perhaps minimum wage, but where did many of us start.
I started at that rate in Caithjness, London England and Canada......
Why are you/we importing or having foreigners come into our respective Countries and take any job they can. Oh, I was also an Immigrant and Foreigner coming to Canada in particular, and was told that fact several times in the beginning......
All Countries have run out of Welfare/Social Assistance etc etc.....We have lived beyond out means for too long.....
And these 'demonstrations/riots or whatever you call them have been going on for a long time....what is being rebelled against perhaps is changing, and it is becoming more violent, so enforcement has to be stronger. Will the water cannons and rubber thingies be used.....we shall see...............
I was just matching riots in Britain from 1900-2011 with who was in government at the time and under a Conservative government there was an average riot every 2 years, most of them being race and social-economic and under Labour, riots every 4 years, most of them were football related.
Hi Rh.....Humor me.............
Do the Conservatives cut out Social Benefits more than the other parties/ actually we have three.??? That's the way it works here?
Be careful who you call a HO.....Can get you in big trouble!
Clearly Phill was referring to Cameron, and as he has been getting shafted by Murdoch for years the accusation probably fits...
Ha ha!
How a simple typo could spark a riot!! I meant How!
I was just matching riots in Britain from 1900-2011 with who was in government at the time and under a Conservative government there was an average riot every 2 years, most of them being race and social-economic and under Labour, riots every 4 years, most of them were football related.
Which is interesting because the conservative man in the street isn't racist generally, where the labour man in the street, generally, is.
I was just matching riots in Britain from 1900-2011 and matching them with who was in government at the time and under a Conservative government there was an average riot every 2 years, most of them being race and social-economic and under Labour, riots every 4 years, most of them were football related.
Is this a Party Political problem or a Political problem?
Or is it a political class problem?
Regardless of the party, if we look at most of the leading politicos currently (and for the past while) how many are actually working class or of a comparable background to the majority of the population? How many of the front benchers are independently wealthy and from a public school background?
Are all the leaders / shadow leaders so far up their own arses they really have no concept of reality?
Even the most liberal, PC, Bunny Hugging MP's are seeing things through a twisted vision.
It's a social problem that needs a political solution and brave men and women to provide it. They are in short supply in politics it appears although there are several around on the streets of London and Birmingham and Manchester.
It's a social problem that needs a political solution and brave men and women to provide it. They are in short supply in politics it appears although there are several around on the streets of London and Birmingham and Manchester.
Its not a social problem Squidge, its just anarchy and and greed, No respect for their elders or property, I blame your goody goody age group for experimenting with youngsters while they were/are in school. Worst thing that ever happend was the removal of the Lochgelly Tawse, I went to school in the 40's/50's, cannot remember any looting or rioting in those days.
London, Bristol, Brum, Manchester. Batten down the hatches, its heading north.
Bazeye, you were correct Anarchy has reached Edinburgh our Capital city http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW0356brnrE
Bazeye, you were correct Anarchy has reached Edinburgh our Capital city http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW0356brnrE
That is appalling behavour, I bet he is English! [disgust]
Just heard on sky sports news that Tottenham Hotspur have signed a new Italian Striker for the forthcoming season...........Grabatelli http://www.christianforums.net/images/smilies/hiding.gif
Metalattakk
11-Aug-11, 00:47
Hello Rioters. Look at your friend, now back to me. Now at your friend, now back to me. Sadly, he isn't me, but if he stopped using petrol bombs and started using a Job Centre he could potentially be me. Look down, back up. Where are we? You're at an interview with the man your friend could work for. What's in your hand? Back at me. I have it. It's an application form to that job you need. Look again. The form is now money. Anything is possible when you get a job and stop looting. I'm on a horse.
Hello Rioters. Look at your friend, now back to me. Now at your friend, now back to me. Sadly, he isn't me, but if he stopped using petrol bombs and started using a Job Centre he could potentially be me. Look down, back up. Where are we? You're at an interview with the man your friend could work for. What's in your hand? Back at me. I have it. It's an application form to that job you need. Look again. The form is now money. Anything is possible when you get a job and stop looting. I'm on a horse.
Class....:lol:
oldmarine
11-Aug-11, 05:21
It appears the rioting goes on, and on and on with no let up. The photos appear to be youg people with some of them very young. Where are the authoritative parents? Don't parents have control over their children anymore?
John Little
11-Aug-11, 08:06
Well there were two parents on national news last night. One was a very gobby woman who told a man who was angry about the rioting that he was ignorant and did not understand the causes and then to 'Jog on' whatever that is supposed to mean.
Then there was a father who told us that his son, who had been arrested, was not like that and was not violent.
And Maria Schicklgruber said her son was a little angel too...
I think the proof that this is all just opportunistic scutters out for 'a laugh' is in how quickly this seems to have ended.
A bit of rain and some more coppers and all their 'issues' they were rising up against seem to have gone away.
......... and then to 'Jog on' whatever that is supposed to mean.'Jog on' Hmmm, John O'Groats Oh No they've painted it so we'll have to riot??
Nah, that can't be right.
OK Ju, I admit my wording was wrong.
Misunderstanding and miscommunication can trigger situations like what is happening. "Us" and "them" language creates or worsens division. There we all go but for the grace of God or luck or whatever other entity you choose to believe in.
In the neolithic the human being radically changed it's way of life, from nomad hunters, where any individual had the ability to produce everything that they needed for themselves, to sedentary specialized farming, where people had to live in communities/societies, because they were no longer able to produce everything that they needed as an individual. Human beings undertook caring for each other in a group- a community. So yes, as a community we are responsible for what is happening. When we marginalize certain people, those people will create the structures that they need in any way they can (gangs, for example). When the number of people feeling marginalized become distant enough from their society, that it no longer has any meaning to them, they will not care about destroying it. What these people in London are doing is wrong. And there is no justification for it. But we, as a society, stopped caring about what was going on with this group long ago, so why should they care about how this affects Britain as a whole? We as a community, are responsible for creating the feeling of "not caring", inferiority and uselessness of some parts of our society.
Misunderstanding and miscommunication can trigger situations like what is happening. "Us" and "them" language creates or worsens division. There we all go but for the grace of God or luck or whatever other entity you choose to believe in.
In the neolithic the human being radically changed it's way of life, from nomad hunters, where any individual had the ability to produce everything that they needed for themselves, to sedentary specialized farming, where people had to live in communities/societies, because they were no longer able to produce everything that they needed as an individual. Human beings undertook caring for each other in a group- a community. So yes, as a community we are responsible for what is happening. When we marginalize certain people, those people will create the structures that they need in any way they can (gangs, for example). When the number of people feeling marginalized become distant enough from their society, that it no longer has any meaning to them, they will not care about destroying it. What these people in London are doing is wrong. And there is no justification for it. But we, as a society, stopped caring about what was going on with this group long ago, so why should they care about how this affects Britain as a whole? We as a community, are responsible for creating the feeling of "not caring", inferiority and uselessness of some parts of our society.
So it is everybody elses fault?
So it is everybody elses fault?
I was not making an excuse but maybe giving a reason. It is everybodies "fault", including the perpertrators. Just like the economic crisis is all our "fault" as well. Not just the bankers.
oldmarine
11-Aug-11, 14:57
Well there were two parents on national news last night. One was a very gobby woman who told a man who was angry about the rioting that he was ignorant and did not understand the causes and then to 'Jog on' whatever that is supposed to mean.
Then there was a father who told us that his son, who had been arrested, was not like that and was not violent.
Younger parents are not like the ones I know. They don't want to accept that their children can be wrong. Then when they have to bail their children out of jail, they always have worthless excuses. No wonder our world is going to HELL.
Younger parents are not like the ones I know. They don't want to accept that their children can be wrong. Then when they have to bail their children out of jail, they always have worthless excuses. No wonder our world is going to HELL.
To be fair, I am a young parent and I always assume my girls are guilty until I find out otherwise!
Margaret M.
11-Aug-11, 16:37
My opinion: Too many morons are reproducing.
The Prime Minister is now calling on Councils to evict those rioters who were involved.
Eviction! (all and well, if rather draconian solution)
Cannot, myself see that this will solve problems with the underdog/s but rather it will add fuel to the fire of those who were involved
and who believe that they are the underdogs as it were.
NickInTheNorth
11-Aug-11, 17:08
even if they do evict them the local authority will be responsible for housing them, and putting them in emergency accommodation is way more expensive than leaving them where they are.
"..The Prime Minister is now calling on Councils to evict those rioters who were involved.
Eviction! (all and well, if rather draconian solution).."
Calls for eviction show a lack of thinking about implications of such an act.
What happens to all the people who are evicted who are not in gainful employment?
Answer, They will be housed in B&B's with taxpayer picking up tab
Calls for eviction show a lack of thinking about implications of such an act.
What happens to all the people who are evicted who are not in gainful employment?
Answer, They will be housed in B&B's with taxpayer picking up tab
Yes, you are so right there and of course being "homeless" brings its own problems, ie; no permanant address=no chance of a job
no-job=no chance of a permanant address, no money, no incentive, no quality of life=trouble.
Seems to me that this new coalition government has no new real idea of how to deal with these problems, just like all of their predecessors and they are all guilty
of causing these social problems.
I saw Cameron on TV.... Would you believe,,,The Police got it wrong....again!
But the Gov't will get to the bottom of it....
Now if the police went in at the beginning, it would be called 'heavy handed'
Don't you/we love our highly paid politicians!
Calls for eviction show a lack of thinking about implications of such an act.
What happens to all the people who are evicted who are not in gainful employment?
Answer, They will be housed in B&B's with taxpayer picking up tab
So if they are evicted, you still pay?? Mercy mercy me!
A few of the oppressed;..
A 23-year-old scaffolder broke down in tears [poor thing] after admitting taking part in the looting in Hackney. Christopher Heart, a father of two from Chingford, was found wearing a pair of new Lacoste trainers and a bodywarmer with the security tag still on at about 11pm on Monday.
James Antwi, an 18-year-old college student from Lambeth, accused of attacking a police car with his bike.
Jason Akinole, a 22-year-old leisure centre worker from west Kilburn, was accused of violent disorder and stealing a quantity of Seiko watches from H Samuel on Ealing Broadway during the disturbances.
Saffron Armstrong an accounting student from Mitcham, who also worked for Marks and Spencer,tried to explain that he had gone into a looted computer store because he was inquisitive - and a freelance journalist
Natasha Reid, 24, from Edmontona graduate and aspiring social worker, also handed herself into police the day after stealing a £300 television from a Comet store in Enfield.
My opinion: Too many morons are reproducing.
Nail on head.
Latest riot in Romford, Essex. Boots the chemist in the high Street has been totally ransacked and the only things left on the shelves are bottles of fake tan.
John Little
11-Aug-11, 21:26
Lessons from history?
Public works?
You must obey this now for a Law, that he that will not worke shall not eate (except by sickness he be disabled) for the labors of thirtie or fortie honest and industrious men shall not be consumed to maintaine an hundred and fiftie idle loyterers.
~ Captain John Smith Jamestown Virginia 1608
Latest riot in Romford, Essex. Boots the chemist in the high Street has been totally ransacked and the only things left on the shelves are bottles of fake tan.
Surely they havent taken all the condoms Baz, they get them for free anyway dont they?
C3.....:roll:;)
[QUOTE=John Little;877717]Lessons from history?
Public works?
You must obey this now for a Law, that he that will not worke shall not eate (except by sickness he be disabled) for the labors of thirtie or fortie honest and industrious men shall not be consumed to maintaine an hundred and fiftie idle loyterers.
~ Captain John Smith Jamestown Virginia 1608
Ahhhhhhh>> so we are not the first to oppose this laziness and free money....well not free....as above, someone has to pay!
Why you droppin out, you speak the truth. Look at the sick record for Council workers,NHS and all public sector workers disgraceful. Time the government sat up and start from scratch.
oldmarine
11-Aug-11, 22:29
[QUOTE=John Little;877717]Lessons from history?
Public works?
You must obey this now for a Law, that he that will not worke shall not eate (except by sickness he be disabled) for the labors of thirtie or fortie honest and industrious men shall not be consumed to maintaine an hundred and fiftie idle loyterers.
~ Captain John Smith Jamestown Virginia 1608
Ahhhhhhh>> so we are not the first to oppose this laziness and free money....well not free....as above, someone has to pay!
A good comment with a good lesson from history. We could learn much by reading history.
[QUOTE=sandyr1;877725]
A good comment with a good lesson from history. We could learn much by reading history.
But do we ever learn Oldmarine?.......I dont think so,..........maybe only the bits we like.
Well a couple of observations. If they are asking the question "What is society doing for us?" They will get the answer when society stops.
And if it was caused by deprivation a) how come they can afford Blackberrys ? I can't.
And b) how come, as it is well known, the most deprived areas of Glasgow, Edinburgh and Dundee are much poorer than any city in England, didn't Scotland get the same level of rioting?
And b) how come, as it is well known, the most deprived areas of Glasgow, Edinburgh and Dundee are much poorer than any city in England, didn't Scotland get the same level of rioting?
How dare you ducati, you missed out Week, Inverness, Kirkcaldy, Lochgelly, Cowdenbeath!
Edinburgh is not deprived. We have riots every August its called the Fringe Festival
How dare you ducati, you missed out Week, Inverness, Kirkcaldy, Lochgelly, Cowdenbeath!
Edinburgh is not deprived. We have riots every August its called the Fringe Festival
Yes indeed :D
Nice to see David Cameron taking charge of the situation by coming out and allowing the use of baton rounds, CS gas and water cannon.... no wait, Chief Police officers already had that jurisdiction!!
Aaldtimer
12-Aug-11, 03:48
Oh the irony of Cameron standing in the nest of expenses fiddlers talking about "Those that obey the law and follow the Rules!"... http://nathanieltapley.com/2011/08/10/an-open-letter-to-david-camerons-parents/ :roll:
Oh the irony of Cameron standing in the nest of expenses fiddlers talking about "Those that obey the law and follow the Rules!"... http://nathanieltapley.com/2011/08/10/an-open-letter-to-david-camerons-parents/ :roll:
Aye, but he was voted in!! He was Da Man..............
Aaldtimer
12-Aug-11, 03:57
Aye, but he was voted in!! He was Da Man..............
Actually Sandy , he wasn't! He fiddled his way in with the other fiddlers , the LidDems!:roll:
I understand, but he must be a smart cookie.....I watched him today and he was quite the Actor.....His appearance with the single small policewoman in the heart of destruction was obviously a 'set up foto' and then his speeches with his peons all nodding/ reminds me of the side shows many years ago with the heads nodding for you to throw the ball into their mouths.......Yes that was quite a letter....but .....do people take notice of that, or do the general public like what he says and the way he says it....Without the background which I know....he is rather believable....
He talks a good story.
The Prime Minister is now calling on Councils to evict those rioters who were involved.
Eviction! (all and well, if rather draconian solution)
Cannot, myself see that this will solve problems with the underdog/s but rather it will add fuel to the fire of those who were involved
and who believe that they are the underdogs as it were.
I don't think the Council have a duty to put them in B&Bs or provide other housing..
The law of intentional homelessness distinguishes between those who deliberately make themselves homeless and those who become homeless through no fault of their own (s191, Housing Act 1996). It is therefore not surprising that local authorities are entitled to take a robust approach towards families whose deliberate conduct has caused them to be homeless and this approach may well cause them to secure their own future accommodation
PS I see yet another deprived girl; (London Olympics Ambassador Chelsea Ives - a talented athlete and singer ) - allegedly to have hurled a rock through a shop window while rioting - then yelled excitedly to a friend: "This is the best day ever." Oh yea, she trashed a cop car by putting a bollard and bricks through the windscreen; Loads of photos on that one.
She also posted on Facebook saying it was the shopkeepers' fault if they were looted... there you go, anther poor deprived girl in front of the beak.. a fine role model.
Yep, on the whole the weren't stealing food were they? Not quite that desperate. They seemed very desperate for plasma screens, watches and Nikes. :roll:
tonkatojo
12-Aug-11, 10:49
Yep, on the whole the weren't stealing food were they? Not quite that desperate. They seemed very desperate for plasma screens, watches and Nikes. :roll:
Aye it's a bit like the cons desperate/stealing the lime light.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14501236
Cheap political swipe - don't know if you are aware, but there's bit a bit of trouble down safh
tonkatojo
12-Aug-11, 11:02
Cheap political swipe - don't know if you are aware, but there's bit a bit of trouble down safh
By whom the con or the cop ?.
Aye it's a bit like the cons desperate/stealing the lime light.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14501236
First of all tonky, get over it!
It does seem quite timely that when the Met finally decided to stop standing around watching London Burn, it was after the gov. said "stop standing around watching London burn" Now the Met are saying "we decided to stop standing around watching London burn"
I heard a brilliant conspiracy theory last night on Question time. The police didn't intervene in the riots so the govenment could intensify cuts and demonise working people.
tonkatojo
12-Aug-11, 11:41
First of all tonky, get over it!
It does seem quite timely that when the Met finally decided to stop standing around watching London Burn, it was after the gov. said "stop standing around watching London burn" Now the Met are saying "we decided to stop standing around watching London burn"
I heard a brilliant conspiracy theory last night on Question time. The police didn't intervene in the riots so the govenment could intensify cuts and demonise working people.
Get over what ?
Who put the quoted conspiracy theory ?, was it Brian Paddick or Dimblbey or whom.
Get over what ?
Who put the quoted conspiracy theory ?, was it Brian Paddick or Dimblbey or whom.
Some mad female in the audience.
tonkatojo
12-Aug-11, 11:50
Some mad female in the audience.
Your not suggesting I get over a mad female surely, and in an audience to boot.
NickInTheNorth
12-Aug-11, 11:55
Some rather more reasoned discussion of possible underlying factors which helped to fuel the fires (literally and figuratively) during the recent rioting and looting around the country.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14483149
None of the simplistic yah boo sucks arguments do any good. There are many factors and just because idiot Cameron does not see the need for an enquiry into the causes does not mean it was just criminality. Cameron does not want an independent enquiry because he knows full well it will point very strongly at some government policies being part of the underlying causes.
Just read the above BBC article. Love it when they engage with their particular agenda. Love even more that they (along with other media, of course) gave the oxygen of publicity to idiots who were vain enough to show off in front of the cameras. Well done, BBC. You provided evidence to lock up a good number of scrotes. Which. for your "liberal" agenda. is an own goal.......
It would appear that the Prime Minister has it all in hand http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/news/Riots-David-Cameron-threatens-Twitter.6817157.jp
It would appear that the peoples of the UK, may not have, write or express opinions that may reflect upon his country and to Quote "Mr Cameron said talks were to be held with companies such as Twitter, BlackBerry and Facebook, as well as the intelligence services, to discuss actions that could limit their reach, to help prevent further disorder". End of Quote.
oldmarine
12-Aug-11, 14:22
London police announced more than 1000 were arrested during the riots. That's a lot of people. The photos disclosed that most of them were youths. I don't live in London but if I did I certainly would have made certain my children of the ages I saw were at home.
*Back at Westminster Magistrates Court, a care worker with a two-year-old child - charged with receiving stolen goods including four TV sets - was refused bail.
Regina Appiah, 25, from Clapham Park Estate, was likely to lose her job and accommodation and could even see her child taken into care if she was remanded in custody, her lawyer told the court.
Nevertheless the court remanded her.
No doubt the bleeding hearts and apologists are having a field day with that one..
My own daughter who was aged 25 was going through a very messy divorce, in fact she was to coin a phrase "on her uppers" we were unaware at that time as she was overseas, and so unable to help, but she had also lost her job as dealing with her personal problems had caused a near breakdown.. but no stretch of the imagination would she have been involved with the above, for gods sake she did not even have 1 telly - let alone 4..
The problem is the system has been so 'soft' that these 'deprived folk' never thought they'd end up in nick.. what sort of society is it that accepts such things with the usual claptrap of "well she's finding it hard - not getting much money as a care worker, can't blame her" ... Well done that magistrate! AND before we get the apologists blubbering about costs, it's worth any amount of money to see justice done - and anyway these losses are going to be paid for by us in the long run, don't want my nose rubbed into it by a smack on the wrist and "don't do it again - off you go and watch your four telly's"
[QUOTE=bekisman;877838]I don't think the Council have a duty to put them in B&Bs or provide other housing..
The law of intentional homelessness distinguishes between those who deliberately make themselves homeless and those who become homeless through no fault of their own (s191, Housing Act 1996). It is therefore not surprising that local authorities are entitled to take a robust approach towards families whose deliberate conduct has caused them to be homeless and this approach may well cause them to secure their own future accommodation
I see, however, "one whether intentionally homeless" or not will find alternative accommodation and then turn to the council for council benefits for help in paying rent and council taxes etc,
either way the taxpayer pays.
Tubthumper
12-Aug-11, 16:39
"Oh tell me, dearest Father," said my little boy to me
"Just what brings out behaviour like we're watching on TV?
What makes a human being act as arsonist and thief -
What feral motivations form these people's life belief?"
I paused a moment as I thought of recent history
For Student Fees, the Miners' Strike, and Poll Tax to name three
Though Camden flames were licking high, intense in certain places
By late next morning you'd be pushed to find too many traces
So groups of youths some 30 strong threw bottles at authority
And broke into the off-licence, nicked Buckfast with impunity
But was it all as bad as what we've seen in times before -
Should Neds be lying terrified, awaiting bang on door?
Some hundreds strong is hardly huge, compared to the G20
When tens of thousands pushed the feds, of which there sure seemed plenty
In Camden smashed some windows and set fire to shops of note
What caused their fast descent to crime, each nasty little scrote?
The poverty? The lack of jobs? The endless grinding bore -
Of living with no purpose where each breath seems like a chore?
No way to make improvement and no clue of what to do
Or simply mob mentality of Jer'my Kyle-life crew?
Is Government just seeking folk on which to focus blame,
Is it to do with scoring points now Murdoch's out the game
(Ask Daily Mail the question: Who did YOU hack for your news?)
Or is it part of plan to solve our post-recession blues
My son cried out, "But Dad, it's not so long since we were great -
What happened to our Country that we ended in this state?
Our moral compass has got broke, the needle's going mad
It's pointing at the top to indicate where we've gone bad!"
Dear son, why should you bother making effort for your Nation
You're surely getting ideas way up above your station.
We sell big guns and bombs to those who seek to hurt their folk
Because, we're told, it pays the wage and pension fund, no joke
Our Lords and MPs thought it fine to lift taxpayer's penny
And flip their homes for benefit while we did not get any
They had the cheek to moan about unfairness in the press
While cuddling Rebekah so she wouldn't spill their mess
Finance advisors on TV are also on the take
From those who hide their profits in a nice offshore tax break
Our football players sleep around and try to gag the press
While editors pass envelopes to constables' address
Our politicians spend their time in company with criminals
Musicians are applauded taking drugs at lowbrow festivals
Our teachers are incompetent, our ministers molesters
Policemen prosecuted for prostrating drunk protesters
Our heroes now are those who pay for publicists galore
Who stuff the gossip rags with sordid stories by the score
We've grown immune to real life, and can you really blame us?
Celebrity's its own reward, you're famous cos you're famous!
Before we get irate at Chavs, can we first spot the lies
Fred Goodwin is just one who's caused more damage in my eyes
Oh how we'd love to see them fall, those hypocrites and liars
From top of tree, alongside Neds that started Camden fires
Despite the news that dear UK is deeply in the poops
For business sake, not decency we send out teams of troops
To fly the flag, to keep the peace, to help poor folk in strife?
Or lay down lives so privileged can maintain happy life…
With post-traumatic stress our soldiers try to make a coin
Are Tony Blair's wee laddies British Army set to join?
Our Flag's a fine and honoured thing we've been told through the years
But how many celebrities have shed those lost-son tears?
Who's worst, my son? The thieving little ignorant wee scrote
That breaks the windows, nicks TV and stupidly gets caught
The courts will throw the book at him, a subtle little twist
From normal situation where he'd just get slap on wrist
Or he that short-sells stocks and shares that don't to him belong
And ruins our economy, makes prospects go all wrong
To gain a pound for nothing these bold chancers always risk it
The greed of these well-educated pirates takes the biscuit
Go back some thirty years or so, our leaders thought it fine
To sell crown jewels for profit, without thought of down the line
The cost of everything identified in great detail
But value unconsidered when put up for knockdown sale
'No more apprenticeships to have, they cost too much and we
Now sell financial services, it is the place to be!'
Our brightest and our best spend lives just shifting credit round
While lining pockets driving poor old Country into ground!
The concept 'Service And Not Self' seems long ago forgotten
By those with influence and cash, self-centred and quite rotten
Oh things are getting worse these days, the weather's got much wetter
Yet still we all get fooled by those that really should know better
Wee man, one day a reckoning will surely come to you
When workers, carers, fighters will all get what they are due
When greed and theft will get comeuppance if there's any sense
One day for all your efforts you may get fair recompense.
Postscript:
But think of every revolution mankind's undertaken
Some Marie-Antoinettes will get their heads from shoulders shaken
In twenty years we're right back where we started from, it's true
So maybe, little man, there's simply nothing you can do.
teddybear1873
12-Aug-11, 16:42
9953
Even the Queen was taking no chances running around London.
"Oh tell me, dearest Father," said my little boy to me
"Just what brings out behaviour like we're watching on TV?
What makes a human being act as arsonist and thief -
What feral motivations form these people's life belief?"
I paused a moment as I thought of recent history
For Student Fees, the Miners' Strike, and Poll Tax to name three
Though Camden flames were licking high, intense in certain places
By late next morning you'd be pushed to find too many traces
So groups of youths some 30 strong threw bottles at authority
And broke into the off-licence, nicked Buckfast with impunity
But was it all as bad as what we've seen in times before -
Should Neds be lying terrified, awaiting bang on door?
Some hundreds strong is hardly huge, compared to the G20
When tens of thousands pushed the feds, of which there sure seemed plenty
In Camden smashed some windows and set fire to shops of note
What motivated their turn to crime, each nasty little scrote?
The poverty? The lack of jobs? The endless grinding bore -
Of living with no purpose where each breath seems like a chore?
No way to make improvement and no clue of what to do
Or simply mob mentality of Jer'my Kyle-life crew?
Is Government just seeking folk on which to focus blame,
Is it to do with scoring points now Murdoch's out the game
(Ask Daily Mail the question: Who did YOU hack for your news?)
Or is it part of plan to solve our post-recession blues
My son cried out, "But Dad, it's not so long since we were great -
What happened to our Country that we ended in this state?
Our moral compass has got broke, the needle's going mad
It's pointing at the top to indicate where we've gone bad!"
Dear son, why should you bother making effort for your Nation
You're surely getting ideas way up above your station.
We sell big guns and bombs to those who seek to hurt their folk
Because, we're told, it pays the wage and pension fund, no joke
Our Lords and MPs thought it fine to lift taxpayer's penny
And flip their homes for benefit while we did not get any
They had the cheek to moan about unfairness in the press
While cuddling Rebekah so she wouldn't spill their mess
Finance advisors on TV are also on the take
From those who hide their profits in a nice offshore tax break
Our football players sleep around and try to gag the press
While editors pass envelopes to constables' address
Our politicians spend their time in company with criminals
Musicians are applauded taking drugs at lowbrow festivals
Our teachers are incompetent, our ministers molesters
Policemen prosecuted for prostrating drunk protesters
Our heroes now are those who pay for publicists galore
Who stuff the gossip rags with sordid stories by the score
We've grown immune to real life, and can you really blame us?
Celebrity's its own reward, you're famous cos you're famous!
Before we get irate at Chavs, can we first spot the lies
Fred Goodwin is just one who's caused more damage in my eyes
Oh how we'd love to see them fall, those hypocrites and liars
From top of tree, alongside Neds that started Camden fires
Despite the news that dear UK is deeply in the poops
For business sake, not decency we send out teams of troops
To fly the flag, to keep the peace, to help poor folk in strife?
Or lay down lives so privileged can maintain happy life…
With post-traumatic stress our soldiers try to make a coin
Are Tony Blair's wee laddies British Army set to join?
Our Flag's a fine and honoured thing we've been told through the years
But how many celebrities have shed those lost-son tears?
Who's worst, my son? The thieving little ignorant wee scrote
That breaks the windows, nicks TV and stupidly gets caught
The courts will throw the book at him, a subtle little twist
From normal situation where he'd just get slap on wrist
Or he that short-sells stocks and shares that don't to him belong
And ruins our economy, makes prospects go all wrong
To gain a pound for nothing these bold chancers always risk it
The greed of these well-educated pirates takes the biscuit
Go back some thirty years or so, our leaders thought it fine
To sell crown jewels for profit, without thought of down the line
The cost of everything identified in great detail
But value unconsidered when put up for knockdown sale
'No more apprenticeships to have, they cost too much and we
Now sell financial services, it is the place to be!'
Our brightest and our best spend lives just shifting credit round
While lining pockets driving poor old Country into ground!
The concept 'Service And Not Self' seems long ago forgotten
By those with influence and cash, self-centred and quite rotten
Oh things are getting worse these days, the weather's got much wetter
Yet still we all get fooled by those that really should know better
Wee man, one day a reckoning will surely come to you
When workers, carers, fighters will all get what they are due
When greed and theft will get comeuppance if there's any sense
One day for all your efforts you may get fair recompense.
Postscript:
But think of every revolution mankind's undertaken
Some Marie-Antoinettes will get their heads from shoulders shaken
In twenty years we're right back where we started from, it's true
So maybe, little man, there's simply nothing you can do.
You have said it all! very good read too.
:)
[QUOTE=bekisman;877838]I don't think the Council have a duty to put them in B&Bs or provide other housing..
The law of intentional homelessness distinguishes between those who deliberately make themselves homeless and those who become homeless through no fault of their own (s191, Housing Act 1996). It is therefore not surprising that local authorities are entitled to take a robust approach towards families whose deliberate conduct has caused them to be homeless and this approach may well cause them to secure their own future accommodation
I see, however, "one whether intentionally homeless" or not will find alternative accommodation and then turn to the council for council benefits for help in paying rent and council taxes etc,
either way the taxpayer pays.
The council is able to commence eviction proceedings against this tenant for breaching their tenancy agreement. Under the terms of the agreement, which applies to all the council's rented accommodation, all tenants, their household members and visitors are forbidden from a range of criminal and anti-social activities. Breaches of the agreement render them liable to eviction *
OK, so they may get benefits (don't they already + subsidised rent?).. But the point is that these people are ruining the ambiance of their law-abiding neighbours.. Maybe this youth has been influenced by gang culture? If so, then it will do him the power of good to be moved out of the area where this misguided influence has taken over his free will - all for the greater good in the end..
In fact it will do him (and his neighbours of course) a great service
http://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/news/article/10626/first_rioter_given_eviction_notice
That's fair enough, move them out and on but it won't stop these people because of their mindset.
They will cause trouble wherever they go,
I don't know what the answer is but I do think that everyone who was involved should be subject to the same punishment, not fines for some and evictions for others.
And some if not all of these "absentee parents" should be looking at losing custody altogether.
It would appear that the Prime Minister has it all in hand http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/news/Riots-David-Cameron-threatens-Twitter.6817157.jp
It would appear that the peoples of the UK, may not have, write or express opinions that may reflect upon his country and to Quote "Mr Cameron said talks were to be held with companies such as Twitter, BlackBerry and Facebook, as well as the intelligence services, to discuss actions that could limit their reach, to help prevent further disorder". End of Quote.
About time too!
[How true
QUOTE=Bazeye;877715]Nail on head.[/QUOTE]
My opinion: Too many morons are reproducing. How true, 16/17year olds getting council housing,pregnant of course, a prime necessity in order to acquire the maximum income of being full time mummy's.One has to have their Blackberry one way or t'other.
NickInTheNorth
12-Aug-11, 21:34
another interesting perspective
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/12/riot-predict-trouble-not-over
Anyone have any thoughts about why Scotland did not have riots?
Anyone have any thoughts about why Scotland did not have riots?
I would think the wrong time of year for riot in Scotland.
With the football season just starting the emphasis is on sectarianism and hooliganism, not political protest and looting. I did notice people in Dundee and Glasgow were arrested for inciting riots though.
Anyone have any thoughts about why Scotland did not have riots?
Scotland did...Just a day later and they fizzled out with the rain like the riots in England
Scotland did...Just a day later and they fizzled out with the rain like the riots in England
Oooops where were they and where were they reported?
I would think the wrong time of year for riot in Scotland.
With the football season just starting the emphasis is on sectarianism and hooliganism, not political protest and looting. I did notice people in Dundee and Glasgow were arrested for inciting riots though.
Nope that cannot be the reason, only a friendly Scotland match on this week but perhaps there was hooliganism and sectarianism causing a riot there that I have not heard about. So some people were inciting riots but did not manage to start any, it does make you wonder why not ?
I would think the wrong time of year for riot in Scotland.
With the football season just starting the emphasis is on sectarianism and hooliganism, not political protest and looting. I did notice people in Dundee and Glasgow were arrested for inciting riots though.
Nope there has been no rioting at football matches this week or for some time either so not the answer. So some people were trying to incite a riot but it did not work, wonder why?
Sorry for the double post, having problems posting...grrrr
These people convicted of looting and rioting should be made to work for the people they have stolen from. They should be made to confront their behaviour with those people who suffered the fear and the damage they caused. They should have to publicly acknowledge their behaviour. I'm sure if you got together a whole load of people who had suffered damage or loss as a result of the actions of these stupid louts then they could find some way to make sure those convicted get a just punishment.
Nope that cannot be the reason, only a friendly Scotland match on this week but perhaps there was hooliganism and sectarianism causing a riot there that I have not heard about.
I'm sorry you've never heard about it. Unfortunately violence at the football is so common in Scotland it rarely makes the national news. There was a lot of trouble apparently instigated by the Hibs fans in a "friendly" this week.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2011/08/09/hibs-neds-blamed-for-sparking-violence-before-and-after-sunderland-friendly-86908-23330963/
http://local.stv.tv/edinburgh/news/265403-eight-arrested-after-football-disturbances/
So some people were trying to incite a riot but it did not work, wonder why?
Your guess is as good as mine!
Your guess is as good as mine!
Oh come on theone, you know an orgers guess is as good as a cast iron fact!
I'm sorry you've never heard about it. Unfortunately violence at the football is so common in Scotland it rarely makes the national news. There was a lot of trouble apparently instigated by the Hibs fans in a "friendly" this week.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2011/08/09/hibs-neds-blamed-for-sparking-violence-before-and-after-sunderland-friendly-86908-23330963/
http://local.stv.tv/edinburgh/news/265403-eight-arrested-after-football-disturbances/
Your guess is as good as mine!
Ah so it is just that the the English press are more vigilant in reporting violence at their football matches. Eight arrested and only one for assault compared to 1000 in England for looting, murder and violence ......... no comparison. It was with an English team where we expect some sort of violence and was at the weekend not while the english riots were going on, so again not because Scottish youth were busy fighting with each other.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2011/08/09/hibs-neds-blamed-for-sparking-violence-before-and-after-sunderland-friendly-86908-23330963/
http://local.stv.tv/edinburgh/news/265403-eight-arrested-after-football-disturbances/
Sadly its what football casuals do, you can read this type of thing nearly every weekend, in most local newspapers. Not just Hibs
It was with an English team where we expect some sort of violence ....................
There we go.
I wondered how long it would take for your anti-English sentiment to appear.
Stop leading us down a path and answer your own question for us, with the answer that's obviously on the tip of your tongue.
Your bigotry shines through.
There we go.
I wondered how long it would take for your anti-English sentiment to appear.
Stop leading us down a path and answer your own question for us, with the answer that's obviously on the tip of your tongue.
Your bigotry shines through.
Anti-English you could not be more wrong !!! I am not a bigot but why do you make assumptions instead of thinking about what I asked?
We have been hearing many reasons people think may have caused the riots but perhaps looking at why they did not happen in Scotland would help find a solution. No answers on the tip of my tongue but my thoughts have been to eliminate the things in common and perhaps say they are irrelevant. Bad parenting drug use, lack of money, decent housing and little prospects for the future are all common denominators with nothing to do with nationality. I do wonder if police reaction has been different or perhaps has been more proactive in keeping order? so far that is the only real difference that I have been able to see as being possible.
Sadly its what football casuals do, you can read this type of thing nearly every weekend, in most local newspapers. Not just Hibs
Yes I agree, it has nothing to do with nationality, every country that plays football have the football hooligans.
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