View Full Version : More jobs lost.
Just heard that Bombardier...the maker of Railway carriages etc., is laying off up tp 2000 workers in Derby, England as they lost a contract to Germany. 200 years of Railway work in Derby..... They say that there will be a few hires but methinks that is whitewash!
Seems you are going down the same River that Canada and the US are going....we give our production to China and Mexico/ yours to Germany.
Hope they will bail us all out......kinda sad!
On this subject but at a more local level: I have it from a few sources that the password reset section ran by HP for BT is closing is September. Apparently (this could be wrong) BT are moving it to the London area.
First of all, I think it’s a real shame, I feel sorry for the people losing their jobs and wish the work would stay in Britain.
But at the same time I understand that the people spending the public money have an obligation to buy the best product for the best possible price.
Germany have created a centre of engineering excellence where Britain has moved away into finance and service sectors. That’s why they’re the second largest exporter in the world.
Bombardier, although employing people in Britain are a Canadian company. The old British giants of Jaguar and Land Rover are Chinese whilst Vauxhall and even HP sauce is owned by the Americans.
I fear the days of “Great British” manufacturing and engineering are slipping away.
I fear the days of “Great British” manufacturing and engineering are slipping away.
I agree with every word there theone apart from the above text...sorry to say it but I believe those day have slipped away and whats worse is their is no turning back.
First of all, I think it’s a real shame, I feel sorry for the people losing their jobs and wish the work would stay in Britain.
But at the same time I understand that the people spending the public money have an obligation to buy the best product for the best possible price.
Germany have created a centre of engineering excellence where Britain has moved away into finance and service sectors. That’s why they’re the second largest exporter in the world.
Bombardier, although employing people in Britain are a Canadian company. The old British giants of Jaguar and Land Rover are Chinese whilst Vauxhall and even HP sauce is owned by the Americans.
I fear the days of “Great British” manufacturing and engineering are slipping away.
It's one of those things I'm not sure about, just to provide the counter arguments:
Strange how France, Germany etc largely manage to keep their own rail manufacturing in-house
They should factor in the loss of the jobs and subsequent benefit payments to the Siemens bid
Off-topic, but on the subject of which company owns what I found this rather interesting:
http://i.imgur.com/ygcJ8.jpg
Methinks it is something to do with the Unions, Illegal walkouts, Strikes and the Strife that we (and I use that collectively), cause the manufacturing process.
In this case I don't think Bombardier make an inferior product.......One should I would think, side with Home Grown Manufacturing!
Strange how France, Germany etc largely manage to keep their own rail manufacturing in-house
Maybe, but not necessarily "strange". I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on trains, but I always though France and Japan were the world leaders in this field, and Germany has a skills base and manufacturing capacity/reputation to be proud of.
It would be foolish to think that the French and Germans can't build trains at least as good, if not better, than us.
They should factor in the loss of the jobs and subsequent benefit payments to the Siemens bid
There is a strong argument for that, and I accept it.
But at the same time it flaunts competition laws and makes the taxpayer vulnerable to blackmail. "Give us the contract at the higher price or we'll sack 1000 people" type thing.
Again, I wish this, and many other big projects, could be completed in the UK. But I believe we've fallen behind in so many areas.
It would be interesting to see the reasons for why Siemens were chosen. Was it for price, quality, or both?
Methinks it is something to do with the Unions, Illegal walkouts, Strikes and the Strife that we (and I use that collectively), cause the manufacturing process.
In this case I don't think Bombardier make an inferior product.......One should I would think, side with Home Grown Manufacturing!
Well in previous contracts Bombardier have beat Siemens. If it is over Union stuff, that just seems childish to me. I find it hard to believe the people making the decisions didn't have any details beyond the bids. I have problems with tender documents and the bidding process anyway but that's another discussion.
It's not just 1400 jobs lost directly, Bombardier will have a supply chain etc so will have a pretty big knock on.
Maybe, but not necessarily "strange". I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on trains, but I always though France and Japan were the world leaders in this field, and Germany has a skills base and manufacturing capacity/reputation to be proud of.
It would be foolish to think that the French and Germans can build trains at least as good, if not better, than us.
My main point with that statement was that if one company was better, whether it's based in France, Germany or whatever then surely that company would win the majority of contracts. What I found strange was that contracts from other European countries tend to be won by companies based in those countries. I suspect what they do is make their contracts so specific that only a local company could win it.
There was a report on the radio this morning. The German company were picked as the preferred bidder some time ago and European legislation made it impossible to change the contract. Britain is tied into all the countries that make up the European Union but nationalism gets in the way of progress. The Derby firm were likely to shed almost as many jobs whether they got the contract or not.
I suspect what they do is make their contracts so specific that only a local company could win it.
I suspect you could be right.
But, even if that is what is done elsewhere, it is not a reason to spend larger amounts of taxpayers money than is required on inferior products.
The radio interview is half way down the page. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-14019992
Britain is tied into all the countries that make up the European Union but nationalism gets in the way of progress.
That is so true.
We're all too nationalistic and that will always be a burden on the EU and a hinderence in terms of meeting its goals.
We (myself included) will all be disappointed at our "British" money being spent abroad. Maybe we should be celebrating it being spent "at home" in Europe and not going to a Canadian company?..................I doubt that will ever happen!
That is so true.
We're all too nationalistic and that will always be a burden on the EU and a hinderence in terms of meeting its goals.
We (myself included) will all be disappointed at our "British" money being spent abroad. Maybe we should be celebrating it being spent "at home" in Europe and not going to a Canadian company?..................I doubt that will ever happen!
That's right. That's where all the problems lie.
In wur heads.:lol:
oldmarine
05-Jul-11, 19:13
Methinks it is something to do with the Unions, Illegal walkouts, Strikes and the Strife that we (and I use that collectively), cause the manufacturing process.
In this case I don't think Bombardier make an inferior product.......One should I would think, side with Home Grown Manufacturing!
I tend to agree with sandy on this one. I have seen the NEA (teacher's union in the USA) lose members and cause charter schools (without unions) to gain schools and members. Unions have helped move companies to locations outside of the USA. China and Mexico has gained most of these. I believe we will see China become the next world power with a great help from the USA due to their political fumbling.
That is so true.
We're all too nationalistic and that will always be a burden on the EU and a hinderence in terms of meeting its goals.
We (myself included) will all be disappointed at our "British" money being spent abroad. Maybe we should be celebrating it being spent "at home" in Europe and not going to a Canadian company?..................I doubt that will ever happen!
My my....how small minds work. The work was being done in England not in Canada.....We are part of the Commonwealth....and your Pension Plans hold Bombardier Stock.....
Theone, think- think what you are saying....First I hear on here how is it Belgium controls the EU. Complains complaints...Then you advocated giving them work?...or would you rather give it away so England doesn't have it?
You have to make up your mind. Bombardier is in practically every Country in the World.
My my....how small minds work. The work was being done in England not in Canada.....We are part of the Commonwealth....and your Pension Plans hold Bombardier Stock.....
Theone, think- think what you are saying....First I hear on here how is it Belgium controls the EU. Complains complaints...Then you advocated giving them work?...or would you rather give it away so England doesn't have it?
You have to make up your mind. Bombardier is in practically every Country in the World.
And how, exactly, does this "commonwealth" work nowadays? Lets be honest, it has very little to do with trade or economics.
Yes, I'm sure our pension plans hold Bombardier stock. They'll also hold stock in Siemens. There will also be a LOT more stock held in Eurozone based countries than in those of the Canadian dollar.
I'm afraid you have heard wrong. Belgium does not control the EU. The EU headquarters are in Belgium, but elected officials from every member state control the EU.
I think I've made my point very clear. I wish the work could have stayed in Britain. But the preffered bidder was Siemens, either on quality, value, or a combination of both.
A couple of points, Seimens have at least as strong a presence in the UK as Bombadier and certainly employ many more people. http://www.industry.siemens.co.uk/home/uk/en/Pages/IndustryUKHome.aspx
Bombadier are free to bid for any European contracts on an equal footing.
One of the scurges of manufacturing and engineering in the UK has always been that firms employ when the order book is full and lay off between major work programmes. This is nothing new and in fact was much more prevelent in the past.
weezer 316
06-Jul-11, 10:53
Britain will always find it hard in manufacturing seeing as it costs so much to build it here. Ironically its likely a similar cost in germany but you will get more bang for your buck due to legendary german engineering.
It also overlooks one key point, this system works both ways. Didnt we just sign £1.5bn worth of trade deals with China?
http://www.ukti.gov.uk/uktihome/home/item/157520.html
Sandy, I never realised that Bombardier, were a Canadian company. Is this why you have bothered to post this on the Org?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/jul/04/bombardier-to-announce-substantial-job-losses-derby
Siemans employ 16k in the UK as it is and claim that 2k jobs will be created in the UK in its supply chain, due to this job going to Germany
And how, exactly, does this "commonwealth" work nowadays? Lets be honest, it has very little to do with trade or economics.
Yes, I'm sure our pension plans hold Bombardier stock. They'll also hold stock in Siemens. There will also be a LOT more stock held in Eurozone based countries than in those of the Canadian dollar.
I'm afraid you have heard wrong. Belgium does not control the EU. The EU headquarters are in Belgium, but elected officials from every member state control the EU.
I think I've made my point very clear. I wish the work could have stayed in Britain. But the preffered bidder was Siemens, either on quality, value, or a combination of both.
Firstly we 'gots' Will and Kate here....
The 'EU'....That is not the way it is being portrayed, but I guess,you are correct in theory...... I admit.
But to say the money is going back to a Can company...That is like BP(British Pete) being solely a UK Company, when in fact it is also Worldwide.
I just think that the UK has lost so many things...Initially shipbuilding, and the list goes on.
Just my thoughts.....having watched the evolution of commerce.
Sandy, I never realised that Bombardier, were a Canadian company. Is this why you have bothered to post this on the Org?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/jul/04/bombardier-to-announce-substantial-job-losses-derby
Main reason Negatory Mr.G. But perhaps in a way.....A quote...by Theone.... 'we should celebrate that the work was going to a German company rather than the money going to Canada'. My thought was...what about striving to keep it in the UK...England! I do keep up with the goings on in the World and was sad to see another ....'whatever' lost to a Country which was the World's shipbuilder and the 'winner' of WW2.
And I am not solely critical of the UK......We have lost so much to Mexico and China....
'whatever' lost to a Country which was the World's shipbuilder and the 'winner' of WW2.
I do not believe anyone won WW2. And as far as the UK being a world shipbuilding country, thats poppy cock, there is a recession world wide in shipbuilding, containerisation saw to that, There were no containers when I worked on the Great Lakes, and Scottish Shipping companys made a profit sending over tiny 2500 ton vessels to ply the Lakes and Newfoundland, this could not happen today and never will, those 40' boxes have a lot to answer for.
You were never told that Britain 'won the war'. And that the Clyde was the greatest shipbuilder?
Wonder why many oil rigs are built in Holland, local trawlers go abroad for refurbishment, North Sea oil rigs don't get replenished by Scotland.
OK so the World changed/ is changing....Can't we also.
BTW...I started the thread, thus my interest.. To me Derby was a manufacturing capital...perhaps I am all wrong.....
It just seems to all run the same way....Countries losing business thru competition. Why cannot we be 'as' competitive!
And that the Clyde was the greatest shipbuilder?
Wonder why many oil rigs are built in Holland, local trawlers go abroad for refurbishment, North Sea oil rigs don't get replenished by Scotland.!
I am sorry Sandy, Scotland built Oil rigs in Loch Kishorn, Ardersier, Methil, and still do Rig repairs at Invergordon and Methil.
Not so many rigs are needed today, the North Sea oil boom is bust, but Methil I know has turned to the Wind turbine industry the next big North Sea boom.
As for trawlers, there is not so much need for so many today also, but there are Fishing Vessel builders in Lerwick, Orkney,Ullapool, Mallaig, Oban, Buckie, McDuff & Eyemouth.
Perhaps you are correct....Wonder why the Uk, Portugal, Spain, Ireland, Iceland is in such a mess if everything is so good.
Anyway I am an interested outsider looking in. I was there some weeks ago and a few months before that....
Seems the UK Gov't is perhaps posturing then today, about the jobs being lost....to Germany. Are they wrong??
Thats OK....I see my thoughts are considered wrong, so I shall leave it. TTFN
BTW.....I posted the original one as I thought that it would make good debate...Firstly, Theone doesn't want anything to go to that Canadian Company and now things are fine//just fine....Guid efuf 4 me!
BTW.....I posted the original one as I thought that it would make good debate...Firstly, Theone doesn't want anything to go to that Canadian Company and now things are fine//just fine....Guid efuf 4 me!
Nonsense.
Read back to my original posts.
As a taxpayer, I want to see my money spent correctly. If the government is buying something on my behalf I want it to be of the highest possible quality at the lowest possible price.
What I don't want is for the taxpayer to be held to ransom or blackmailed.
Would I want anything to go to a Canadian company? Yes, why not? But I'd prefer it to go to a Caithness, Scottish, British or EU country first (in that order). Self preservation.
This is being turned into a political debate based on sensationalist tabloid headlines. As has been pointed out on here (by others) is that Siemens is already a bigger employer than bombardier in this country, and that Siemens intends to create jobs in the supply chain (2000 jobs - thats 600 MORE than bombardier are threatening cutting) directly as a result of this contract.
Now, what nobody seems to be asking, and what nobody seems to be telling us is WHY bombardier never won the contract. Could it be that they offered an inferior product? Or could it be that they demanded extortionate prices?
Who knows?
So you are 'celebrating' that the money is going to a German Company in Germany.....
And the employment/unemployment figures that you quote are not the ones the British Gov't are discussing......It doesn't seem that Bombardier are 'threatening' cutting jobs. They have to... Derby has lost the contract. The work is gone....
I thought that the Brits would be upset about that. More unemployment....Plus the subsidieries..
So you are 'celebrating' that the money is going to a German Company in Germany.....
No, you're taking me out of context. I asked a question.
Maybe we should be celebrating it being spent "at home" in Europe and not going to a Canadian company?..................I doubt that will ever happen!
.....
And the employment/unemployment figures that you quote are not the ones the British Gov't are discussing........
Enlighten me. I am only using the figures quoted by others in this thread.
It doesn't seem that Bombardier are 'threatening' cutting jobs. They have to... Derby has lost the contract.
Only because they could not offer the British taxpayer the best possible deal. Uncompetitive.
I thought that the Brits would be upset about that. More unemployment....Plus the subsidieries..
Again, read my posts. I have made it clear that I feel sorry for the people losing their jobs and wish the jobs could stay in the country.
You have made your point....Celebrating it going to Europe... i.e. Germany.
Read the New York Times this am...Quotes from people in the UK. Gov't., Unions....I am sure there is lots more in this than meets 'our eyes'.
I shall leave it for others to decide..if they wish.
oldmarine
06-Jul-11, 22:06
I do not believe anyone won WW2. And as far as the UK being a world shipbuilding country, thats poppy cock, there is a recession world wide in shipbuilding, containerisation saw to that, There were no containers when I worked on the Great Lakes, and Scottish Shipping companys made a profit sending over tiny 2500 ton vessels to ply the Lakes and Newfoundland, this could not happen today and never will, those 40' boxes have a lot to answer for.
And again I have to agree with golach. Particularly on this comment.
Bringing up a new issue....
Just saw this am that Poland is now administering the EU.....Thoughts?????????????
Bringing up a new issue....
Just saw this am that Poland is now administering the EU.....Thoughts?????????????
Everybody gets a shot. Poland now, Denmark in 6 months time.
To be honest, I don't think whoever has the presidency has much of an affect on the running of the EU.
Poland is part of the EU Sandy, I cannot see a problem with that. Do you foresee any problems?
My knowledge is quite lmited on the EU...I have heard a bad story, like milk and eggs getting dumped and then particularly nearly every waitress in Caithness is Polish....Does this do anything to our workforce?
I don't foresee anything Mr.G.. Just trying to understand how the Eu works and if it is a benefit...and thought of yourself and others like you...e.g. Theone.
Oh the article I read in the New York Times intimates that whoever administers the EU doth have Control....just wondering.
I did deal somewhat in Politics at the Provincial and Federal levels, so I like to keep up to date....
I see that you have been rather combative with the last 5 posts, in particular why I was 'bothering to post on the Org.
I have my opinions, but like to hear other points of view....Simples!
Bill Fernie
10-Jul-11, 23:40
I think we need to be careful not to believe the myths created and spread by one sided press reports. We have lost much of our heavy industries but diversified in to new things. There are a great many factors to consider and direct comparisons may not make sense without looking at many other matters including social and quality of life factors.
Take a look at this http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/02/22/manufacturing_figures/
Then examine some of the stats about where we stand in world manufacturing at
http://investing.curiouscatblog.net/2008/09/23/top-manufacturing-countries-in-2007/
Thank you....an example here....In my City in 2003/4 we were building approx 1 million vehicles with 88% going to the US.
Now we are building approx 200,000. Big Loss but we have recently acquired a College/ University. Not quite the same profit tho'.
But there again your comments on 'social and quality of life factors' are on a downward trend. And the bottom is not on the Horizon as yet.
Quick stat....7 million foreclosed homes to come on the market in the US alone.
And I do know a wee bitty about the Maastricht Treaty, but does the EU mean that the 27 Countries will all be on the same level eventually? e.g. free movement of people, goods, etc etc{sic}...And arn't some Countries considering closing their borders due to the influx of the poor? I don't blame the poor for wanting more/ I was one of them! ... just wonder... can the system withstand the weight....
And of course you are a Politician, so you are expected to toe the 'party line'.
These comments were not meant to be controversial. Truly wanted to know what is going on in other parts of the World....ty
Well isnt it about time we had the promised referendum about the continuation or the withdrawal with/from the EU? Norway and Switzerland seem to be doing fine.
You've been away too long Sandy and your nationalistic juices have taken a romantic turn. There's no sentimentality in nature except what we can create ourselves.
Listen to this great speech by the greatest of men and tell me how else it should be.
You would do well to listen to it too Baz.
It comes in 2 bits. This is the first link. When it's done the second part is ready to go. Just click on it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8oUyFS556s
Tks...A great man 'for his time', but time Marches On!
It's a waste of time showing people the foundations. They want to see the pretty buildings and the nice curtains never thinking that without the foundations the whole thing would fall.
Am unsure your thoughts.....This 'other World' leads to different interpretations.........
Am still trying to determine what Secrets in S and that recent thread means.........
You were asking questions about the European union. The idea arose from the ashes of the old Europe and Churchill was it's founding father. Who could have considered the progress we have made in such a short time? There's still plenty fine tuning to do but anyone who is against the idea has little more to offer than that which history has shown us is destructive. I know which I prefer.
Ty..but are not some Countries wanting to leave/ already left or never accepted the idea.....I guess that is what I was asking.....
Well yes but they forget the idea behind it. Most people who want to leave are coming at it from a nationalistic point of view the very disease that caused the wars in the first place.
Ty..but are not some Countries wanting to leave/ already left or never accepted the idea.....I guess that is what I was asking.....
Sandy, show me who in the EU are wanting to leave or who have left. See below for the list of Countries in the EU, only Iceland , Norway and Liechtenstein & Switzerland are not members, but Turkey wants to join once its settles its grievances with Greece. I personally voted against going into the EU, but thats a long story.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EU_Globe_No_Borders.svg
Perhaps I have read 'one sided press reports' as Mr F put it. If everyone is happy with the situation and it is working well, and the EU has fulfilled it's mandate of making the Countries stronger and richer, then say no more.
That is I am sure the object of the exercise......tks
That's the problem with too much information. everyone's got an opinion and they forget why it was such a good idea to start with and especially as media opinions can be so loaded. In theory it's got to be the way forward. Imagine, all brothers in it together. It's hard for us to identify with a farmer or brickie in Greece but if we tried it would work better than it does now.
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