U.K Strikes

[sandyr1]

Just reading about the srikes that are going on, with approx 1 million people out today...
What does the average Brit think of this?
If the economy is dodgy now, won't this make it worse!

[NickInTheNorth]

there's a lot of greedy lazy selfish people that believe we all owe them an easy life.

time for a reality check me thinks

[weezer 316]

Joke. Most public sector workers get pay and benefits I couldnt even dream of, with the likes of teachers very very very well compensated as well as it being as secure a Job as there is in this country. Sheer greed me thinks.

[theone]

One of the reasons we've lost so many previously public sector companies to the private sector is that only then can they be run efficiently.

In many ways I find it sad, I'd love to see the railways etc under state control, but those days are gone.

Whilst I feel pity for anyone facing a loss in terms of their terms and conditions etc, the time really has come to stop promising pensions etc for the future which are.not being invested for in the present.

I really do wonder how long schools and even hospitals will be kept in the public sector before being passed on to the private sector. Not necessarily a good thing.

[RecQuery]

I'm ambivalent about this really, I'm fairly liberal in a lot of my views but I do think parts of the public sector are bloated, inefficient and top heavy with ineffectual management. Tthe government does have a good tactic they've been using recently by getting two groups to fight each other instead of a 3rd or 4th party that actually caused the situation to develop. For example:


Private sector vs Public sector
Decent military hardware vs funding for the arts.
Airline workers vs holiday makers

That being said some things should remain in the public sector, because they don't have to make money, they can focus on delivering a service or just breaking even.

[chordie]

My son's teacher got the class to do drawing yesterday afternoon....so that she could watch Wimbledon on the iPlayer on the class computer. I kid you not.

[weezer 316]

Recquery,

I agree. NHS should never ever be privatized. Schools too. Defence. Aside from that, im sure private firms can do a better job for most things. BT a good example.

[dousslesh]

If working for the public sector is so well paid, with such brilliant benefits and offer " as secure a job as there is in this country " .... why are all those people in the private sector not working for the public sector ? ! After all the public sector has a multitude of jobs and career opportunities - so much to choose from....
PS I work for the public sector and have been told the office I work at is now closing- I will be losing my job. The office has been under threat of closure for two years, not such a secure employer after all !
Two sides to every story as they say.

[weezer 316]

I as talking about teachers in particular. Its an incredibly safe job.

The public sector is too bloated as it is, which is why the govt spend £150bn a year more than it receives. That has to stop, otherwise it leads to even worse in the end.

Sorry you are losing your job. Never nice. But the point remains.

[Walter Ego]

The Public Sector have had benefits well outside the scope of private companies for years, I have very little sympathy for the plight of many in the Public Sector.

I don't recall much sympathy at all from the Public Sector when the Private Sector and self-employed were bearing the brunt of the hits, no 'Solidarity' has ever been shown when companies were going under. They just sat back on their arses and watch it all happen.

Welcome to the real world. Now get back to work and get the ball rolling, me and many like me are trying to keep our businesses viable whilst you clowns play the 'pity me' card.

Shape up - or ship out.

[Corrie 3]

They have every right to be angry, don't we all get angry when we are told we must pay more for something and get less for our money?

If you have a loan to pay for a car and suddenly you were told you must keep paying for another 4years after the loan was paid back and then the bank were coming along to take the wheels off said car you would be livid wouldn't you?
I have a relative who teaches children with learning difficulties, she gets kicked, bitten and scratched everyday of her working life. Instead of putting her feet up at 60 she now has to work till she is 69, can you imagine someone doing that job at nearly 70? And her pension contributions will be going up and up and her pension will be going down and down. Don't be fooled, this is all about the Govt wanting you dead before you get to draw your pension and I hope today's strike is the start of bringing this joke of a Coalition down!!!

C3.......:mad:[disgust][disgust]

[Walter Ego]

They have every right to be angry, don't we all get angry when we are told we must pay more for something and get less for our money?

If you have a loan to pay for a car and suddenly you were told you must keep paying for another 4years after the loan was paid back and then the bank were coming along to take the wheels off said car you would be livid wouldn't you?
I have a relative who teaches children with learning difficulties, she gets kicked, bitten and scratched everyday of her working life. Instead of putting her feet up at 60 she now has to work till she is 69, can you imagine someone doing that job at nearly 70? And her pension contributions will be going up and up and her pension will be going down and down. Don't be fooled, this is all about the Govt wanting you dead before you get to draw your pension and I hope today's strike is the start of bringing this joke of a Coalition down!!!

C3.......:mad:[disgust][disgust]

I'm having to work longer, I'm having to make changes, my pension is now nearly worthless and I'm faced with difficult decisions and have to put up with the high pressures of running a business (knowing that if I fail I lose everything - including my house) - why should anyone else expect to be treated differently? I have no safety net or support from the Public Sector at all - and neither do thousands like me - do we cry into our beer and wail about how unjust the world is? Nope - we get on with being more efficient.

[Walter Ego]

"If working for the public sector is so well paid, with such brilliant benefits and offer " as secure a job as there is in this country " .... why are all those people in the private sector not working for the public sector ? ! After all the public sector has a multitude of jobs and career opportunities - so much to choose from....
PS I work for the public sector and have been told the office I work at is now closing- I will be losing my job. The office has been under threat of closure for two years, not such a secure employer after all !
Two sides to every story as they say."




Because it is us numpties in the Private Sector that generate the income to keep all the Public Sectors career cruisers in their jobs. If we were as inefficient as many government depts - the whole country would have gone bust years ago.

Just have a look at how many people in Scotland work - in one form or another - for the Scottish government, a huge percentage...who do you think is paying for all those clowns to spend all day being inefficient and whining about how many sick days they've not used up? Daft sods like me and those around me who actually contribute to Scottish society instead of sucking the lifeblood out of it!

[Gronnuck]

I get the impression from a couple of the posts on here that some people think public sector workers are all languishing behind desks shuffling paper about and playing on their ‘puter. The public sector include care workers who look after the most vulnerable members of our society. Pay isn’t great and with all the lifting and carrying they do there’s a toll on muscles and joints. Classroom assistants aren’t highly paid but are expected to turn their hand to almost anything in furthering the education of your children. All these buildings need cleaners and maintenance staff many of whom start work before some of us are out of bed in the morning. These low paid workers certainly didn’t cause the financial problems we’re now experiencing. For many of them they’re pension is a pittance but just enough to ensure they’re not eligible for any other benefits.

[sandyr1]

Got your thoughts....Ty...
But isn't one Gov't the same as the other/ things have to be cut back.....whoever is in will have to do it?

And talking of Hospitals....We have the same dilemma. Public vs private.....I experienced the Private side 4 years ago for an operation...a hernia.
They take the Gov't paid portion and I had to add another $175.00 per day....100 pounds to the base rate, but wow....quite a difference....
They treated me very well.....
But then 20 years ago I was in a bad car accident, and was taken to the Emerg., and they treated me very well there. Intensive care was not pleasant for a few days, but each system has it's advantages.

And the Schools......they are closing down schools here altho' it would appear that we are not in such bad shape......perhaps it is time for everything to be analysed. We cannot live on borrowed money forever.
Greece got it's second bailout and it is said that in another 6/8 months they will need it again...........oh dear.....................

What about the Strikes? Bad for productivity?

******** Actulally I just saw on the BBC that the Opposition leader criticized the Strike..... I guess that's my answer.

[John Little]

So let's get this straight.

This list contains a bunch of wasters and losers who all get gold plated pensions and do very little for them.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Jobseekers/JobsAndCareers/DG_4003112

Right?

And it's going to be OK for a 65 year old teacher to be trying to control a class of 5 year olds?

That's even if they could get a job over the age of 35.

In 1909 when the Liberals proposed bringing in pensions at the age of 70, George Lansbury, Labour MP shouted out 'Most working class people are dead by 60!'

That may longer be true but even though they live, how many creak at the joints, have dicky hearts, bad backs and systems that don not function as well as they used to?

And they pay into a pension pot too - all their working lives - not at a rate they set, but which the government set.

And instead of investing it the government used the money to fund other things and let corporations off tax owed to the British government.

The average gold plated public sector pension is £7000 per annum.

Where were all of you 6 weeks ago when George Osborne wrote off £6 billion owed by Vodafone? And when big business dodges tax as a matter of routine?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/nov/14/vodafone-tax-evasion-revenue-customs

Only the little people pay taxes.

So instead of making up the shortfall by taxing greedy bankers and corporations- let's raid gold plated public sector pensions and demonise them all into fat cats using the Murdoch Press.

There's none so blind as them as don't want to see.

So which of the fat cats on the list of public sector jobs would you cut out of our society? Which of them is an unproductive waster?

[Gordon Bonnet]

There is too much imbalance between private and public sector pensions and conditions of employment.

True, the average public sector pension is about £4k.

I have been paying into a personal pension for 15 years - only £60 a month...and I'm lately told I should get £600 a year for my trouble...assuming I do not snuff it before I retire.

Twelve quid a week might pay for a lunchtime pint if I can stroll to the pub - or more likely supplement my meagre income as an old aged pensioner.

Luckily, my wife has a local authority pension, so I'm not so bad - have to keep on her good side though.

[theone]

And they pay into a pension pot too - all their working lives - not at a rate they set, but which the government set.

And instead of investing it the government used the money to fund other things and let corporations off tax owed to the British government.



That is my biggest problem with public sector pensions.

Why are the government NOT investing the payments into a fund?

and, why do the government employees expect a guaranteed income in retirement regardles of how the economy is going?

Another failure of our "great" democracy. Governments making promises they cannot keep just to win 4 years in power on the gravy train, then devoid of blame and responsibility when their legacies cause failure and problems.

[John Little]

The essence of a pension scheme is that it provides you with an income in old age.

In the public sector they are part of your contract and come as part of the whole package - you may NOT opt out of these scheme even if you wish to.

So you enter on your career with that in mind.

Then along comes a government that will not tax the rich but instead varies the conditions of the public sector contract which you entered into. They tell you because of their mismanagement of the economy that you will have to work 8 years longer- into your dotage in some cases, and that you will get less.

This despite a deal done 3 years ago which guarantees that public sector pensions actually ARE affordable over the next 50 years- the Hutton Report.

So which nurse's pension are you going to cut?

Which copper's nest egg are you going to raid?

Just bear in mind that they had no choice over their pension arrangements.

This government is doing more than move the goalposts - it's ploughing up the pitch on which our society plays.

[John Little]

Can anyone here not see the anger in ordinary people- nurses, squaddies, teachers, carers and so on that they are hit in this way whilst bankers are allowed to walk off with millions?

Is your reaction really to be angry at them instead of the extortionists who are intent on robbing people who may live next door to you?

Is their propaganda machine really so effective?

[Gordon Bonnet]

The essence of a pension scheme is that it provides you with an income in old age.



..........So which nurse's pension are you going to cut?

Which copper's nest egg are you going to raid?..........



All of them I should hope. Certainly those under 45 now.
They will still be in the box seat when it comes to pensions.
Additionally I would cut the perks on offer to M.P.'s by a similar percentage - no exceptions.

[John Little]

And the likes of `vodafone? Or the £250,000,000 shared by 250 Barclays Bank employees in 'bonuses' last year?

[John Little]

It's a strange country where the people who pay tax may be embezzled of billions of their money and then applaud the embezzlers.

Whose money propped up the banks?

Whose tax is written off?

Not mine.

If my pension were affected by what this bunch of crooks are trying to get away with then I would be out there with them.

And I'll go further. Remarkable for me this one.

If I were a Scots public sector worker facing this brazen hypocrisy and attack on my old age security then I would be out there waving a saltire shouting 'FREEDOM' and "SCOTLAND FOR AYE' with the best of them!

[sandyr1]

Two things I see here..

Firstly JL is correct. I worked for the Gov't and one must pay into their pension.....In the last 5 years I was paying 10% of my salary towards pension//yes I got a tax break on that portion BUT it is a choice we make....Perhaps if I had worked outside Gov't I would have done better.....who knows...One maketh the choice so one taketh the result! Perhaps we should have worked for the Banks.....At least with a Gov't pension you know how much....well nearly....you are going to get. In private industry one never knows....but one can also do much better.

And if people are going to have to work longer, that does away with job opportunities for the younger people leaving school.....so what are they going to do. Our population is not getting less....

[John Little]

The only reason you know what you are going to get is that the government's agencies work out your pension on the basis of what you would have got if the money had been invested.

The fact that they use your pension money as a de facto tax does not affect the contract between employee and employer.

They cannot take your money, spend it, and then cry out that they cannot afford to pay you.

That is true immorality.

[RecQuery]

Can anyone here not see the anger in ordinary people- nurses, squaddies, teachers, carers and so on that they are hit in this way whilst bankers are allowed to walk off with millions?

Is your reaction really to be angry at them instead of the extortionists who are intent on robbing people who may live next door to you?

Is their propaganda machine really so effective?

I can, that was my sort of point about the government tactic of turning two groups against each other instead of them both going after a 3rd legitimate target. They're doing it with the private and public sector right now but they've done it with other groups in the past. Sometimes there are more than two options; not everything is a zero-sum game.

[Walter Ego]

Can anyone here not see the anger in ordinary people- nurses, squaddies, teachers, carers and so on that they are hit in this way whilst bankers are allowed to walk off with millions?

Is your reaction really to be angry at them instead of the extortionists who are intent on robbing people who may live next door to you?

Is their propaganda machine really so effective?

No it isn't.

My annoyance is that the Public sector feel they are entitled to special treatment.

There's millions of people grafting out there in industry on minimum wage who haven't got anything in a way of a pension as they cannot afford to live day to day - let alone put away money for a pension.

[sandyr1]

Agreed...agreed, but is a Strike necessary...to make 'bad worse'! (for want of a better phrase).
Remember many of us started on 'minimum wage....I did it 3(three) times!

This phenomenon of the Bankers is World Wide.....but who supports the politicians get re-elected...the people with money.

In addition....pls remember that all 'emergency/essential services' do not have the right to strike....With us the TTC..(Toronto Transit Commission)...buses and subway, the latest to have had their right to strike taken away.....
We have a news/ business talk show on here at 7pm during the week, and the 'main man' said...We have Unions...We should 'whack them/shoot them'.
He was reported for advocating terrorism, to the Govt Agency who controls our Airwaves, and they found that altho' it was a bit tacky he was off the hook! Unions don't seem so popular any more.

[John Little]

Walter - your annoyance is framed by a misunderstanding I think. Nobody is asking for special treatment.

What they want is the treatment set out in their contract. The same treatment agreed by the last government in a settlement reached through exhaustive negotiation 3 years ago.

Don't believe anyone who tells you they want special treatment - they just want what it says on the tin.

There's millions grafting away in the public sector too. People you could not do without - or who you would want there if you were in trouble. Their pensions are certainly not gold plated.

Why should "They' set you against me and walk off with all the loot?

Divide and rule is an old saying but it still holds good today.

[John Little]

Agreed...agreed, but is a Strike necessary...to make 'bad worse'! (for want of a better phrase).
Remember many of us started on 'minimum wage....I did it 3(three) times!

This phenomenon of the Bankers is World Wide.....but who supports the politicians get re-elected...the people with money.

Sandy - I'm beginning to like you....:eek:

Just remember Niemoller - all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that men of good will do nothing.

[sandyr1]

Got your drift...............so very true! Yes that is one powerful statement.

BTW....we have your future King and Queen/ well kinda/ visiting....and she has worn a thing/cloot, bought in Toronto!
They say it is all......... 'So Exciting'!

[Pouleriscaig]

I work in the public sector. My salary was cut by around £4,000 in 2009 as part of a Council Job Evaluation scheme. I'm now on the same grading as when I started 22 years ago and the salary has been frozen from 2008 until 2012.
I also pay into a Pension scheme.

I don't see the inefficiency people talk of in this thread, but instead see services cut and cut more and more, and more and more stressed employees.

The crux of the argument for me is successive Governments failing to plan properly for an Older Population over the last 25 years when they saw it clearly coming, confining many instead to pensioner poverty.

It is wrong that people in the private sector have poor pensions if any, but it's equally wrong to argue everyone should be confined to a future of pensioner poverty.
If anything, we should be arguing for all employees to have a financially secure retirement.

[Rheghead]

I once also had a jaded view of public sector workers pay and conditions, especially that of teachers until I found out the truth when I married one.

I now know that the Government would be bankrupt in a week if it had to :-

1. Pay overtime for the work they do outside school hours,
2. Reimburse what the teachers donate towards their classroom budget out of their own wage (~25%)
3. Compensate teachers for having to pay peak premium holiday rates.

[sandyr1]

I work in the public sector. My salary was cut by around £4,000 in 2009 as part of a Council Job Evaluation scheme. I'm now on the same grading as when I started 22 years ago and the salary has been frozen from 2008 until 2012.
I also pay into a Pension scheme.

I don't see the inefficiency people talk of in this thread, but instead see services cut and cut more and more, and more and more stressed employees.

The crux of the argument for me is successive Governments failing to plan properly for an Older Population over the last 25 years when they saw it clearly coming, confining many instead to pensioner poverty.

It is wrong that people in the private sector have poor pensions if any, but it's equally wrong to argue everyone should be confined to a future of pensioner poverty.
If anything, we should be arguing for all employees to have a financially secure retirement.

Don't take this personally....but.. I also worked in the 'Public Sector'. In the early 1990's we had a downturn in Canada...We had a wage freeze for approx 4/5 years, and we were given the option of taking time off without pay or our colleagues would be laid off. We chose 'Ray Days., after the Premier's name! And I missed out on two promotions....For those of us who had a few pennies saved it was no big deal/ tighten the belets a wee bitty and perhaps the secret, which some people don't understand....'Live within our means'!

[bagpuss]

Euthanasia for all at 70 would certainly bring down the pension bill- and free up jobs for the young. Drastic- but without a decent pension, what quality of life would there be?

I notice its gone very quiet when it comes to those who live off the state without working- but one supposes by the time a 'sponger' reaches 70, and has to live on a state pension they would have to cope with a 90% reduction in income?

[sandyr1]

Euthanasia for all at 70 would certainly bring down the pension bill- and free up jobs for the young. Drastic- but without a decent pension, what quality of life would there be?

I notice its gone very quiet when it comes to those who live off the state without working- but one supposes by the time a 'sponger' reaches 70, and has to live on a state pension they would have to cope with a 90% reduction in income?

Lots in the Pub.....

And why would the average person not save some momey/ back to that olde story....living beyond one's means!

[bcsman]

well said walter.as far as i am concerned public sector workers are just spoiled brats and should et back to work.

The Public Sector have had benefits well outside the scope of private companies for years, I have very little sympathy for the plight of many in the Public Sector.

I don't recall much sympathy at all from the Public Sector when the Private Sector and self-employed were bearing the brunt of the hits, no 'Solidarity' has ever been shown when companies were going under. They just sat back on their arses and watch it all happen.

Welcome to the real world. Now get back to work and get the ball rolling, me and many like me are trying to keep our businesses viable whilst you clowns play the 'pity me' card.

Shape up - or ship out.

[golach]

Euthanasia for all at 70 would certainly bring down the pension bill- and free up jobs for the young. Drastic- but without a decent pension, what quality of life would there be?

I am over 70 and living very comfortably on my Civil Service pension, I hope you have to work until your 70 before you reach pension age, the young dont want to work these days anyway, we over 70's have provided you with a nanny state [lol]

[Rheghead]

The Scottish Green Party and its counterpart in England and Wales continues to recognise and support workers right to strike for better pay and conditions when all other parties have abandoned them.

[Gordon Bonnet]

And the likes of `vodafone? Or the £250,000,000 shared by 250 Barclays Bank employees in 'bonuses' last year?

Life is anything but fair John, I thought you'd surely know that by now.

[Gordon Bonnet]

Can anyone here not see the anger in ordinary people- nurses, squaddies, teachers, carers and so on that they are hit in this way whilst bankers are allowed to walk off with millions?

Is your reaction really to be angry at them instead of the extortionists who are intent on robbing people who may live next door to you?

Is their propaganda machine really so effective?

teachers and nurses are indeed 'ordinary' people but do important jobs society see fit to reward with perks, pensions and good holidays and the jobs they do are mostly secure.
When it comes to really 'ordinary' people in really 'ordinary' jobs (no less important in their own way) I think of taxi drivers,security staff, busmen, cleaners,
shop workers, road menders, brickies, milkmen, clerks in small offices and many more like them in the private sector who get next to beggar all for all of their lives.

[Keith Shelley]

I as talking about teachers in particular. Its an incredibly safe job.

The public sector is too bloated as it is, which is why the govt spend £150bn a year more than it receives. That has to stop, otherwise it leads to even worse in the end.

Sorry you are losing your job. Never nice. But the point remains.

how come so many of them have been axed in Caithness this summer with the likelyhood of more to follow soon, budgets have been cut and class sizes are going back to the old levels. No job is safe wherever we work.

[Shabbychic]

teachers and nurses are indeed 'ordinary' people but do important jobs society see fit to reward with perks, pensions and good holidays and the jobs they do are mostly secure.
When it comes to really 'ordinary' people in really 'ordinary' jobs (no less important in their own way) I think of taxi drivers,security staff, busmen, cleaners,
shop workers, road menders, brickies, milkmen, clerks in small offices and many more like them in the private sector who get next to beggar all for all of their lives.

Have you ever wondered why all these really 'ordinary' people get next to nothing all their lives, while working in the private sector? Could it perhaps be that the private sector are so busy making profits for themselves and shareholders, that they have such poor conditions for their workers?

You can't blame public sector workers for poor wages and working conditions in the private sector, nor can you blame them for standing up for themselves.

[ducati]

And the likes of `vodafone? Or the £250,000,000 shared by 250 Barclays Bank employees in 'bonuses' last year?

It's alright, they paid 40 or 50% tax on 'em. The big ones that is. All bank employees get bonuses. They start at about £1300 per year for a customer service, call centre person. They are part of the terms and conditions of their employment but you want to take them away. It's tea and sympathy for some and vitriolic loathing for others. Just pick your side.

[Ricco]

Just a few thoughts (from one of the many teachers that did NOT strike):

1) Public sector workers are not striking for more pay or less hours - they are striking to make a point about how their pensions are being tampered with. This wouold annoy anyone who had worked for years and then found that they could not retire as planned but had to keep on going.

2) I was appalled to read that one teacher had set their class drawing and painting so that she could watch the tennis. IF this is true then a formal complaint should be made - perhaps one of the students surreptitiously got a photo on their mobile?

3) Perhaps we would be better haranguing our gov't about the millions of tax payers' money that is being given to the Greek and Irish govts (let's face it - we will never see it back!) and the millions pumped into fat cat banking systems... who are still doing what they did to get themselves into trouble in the first place. This money would be much better spent on health care, aged care, etc.

4) What of the millions of tax payers money that has been squandered on white elephant projects such as the centralised health system that still doesn't work? What of all those specialised fire service control centres that will never be used? What about all the money spent on Trident, etc when we can't even ensure our lads get ammunition and armour that actually works?

Nope - don't worry about a one-day strike by people who are simply expressing their utter frustration over a gov't that makes decisions that my youngest students would find derisory - focus your attention on your local MP and EMP, and make sure that they are doing THEIR job properly - working for YOU.

Sorry - not really shouting - just emphasising.

[nightspirit]

I love to see all these people who harp on about Local gov jobs being "secure" or a job for life. i hva efor the last 13 years worked for a local caouncil and had to stand with myt collegues 3 times to stop our jubs either being transfered or lost - now we are about to start the whole lot again for a 4th time not to mention an increas in house for 140 but only getting £70 increase for said 140 hrs and since we ae on the tpic in the whole 13 years i have never had a pay rise that was ever 50% of the current inflation rate either of the mesures the gov udses. Pensions up untiol recently final salery poentions were very common yet ppl seem to think we are sitting back waiting to reap in the financial windfall. Try being the only wage erner in a house with 2 young kids and never keeping pace with the cost of living. oh also forgot got a 0.65 % pay rise last year and no pay rise for defo the next 3 if not 5 years so i say it is about time the Gove looked at everything and made it afair deal. ps teachers and chief officers have a nationally worked out pay scale the differers from the normal joe bloggs at the council offices or driving the bin lorries. !!!!!

[oldmarine]

Just reading about the srikes that are going on, with approx 1 million people out today...
What does the average Brit think of this?
If the economy is dodgy now, won't this make it worse!

People are getting too greedy. It will get worse before it gets better.

[RecQuery]

A bit late, but this is probably relevant:

Multinationals in line for £1bn tax break - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/multinationals-in-line-for-1631bn-tax-break-2305170.html