View Full Version : Whaligoe steps
I heard a story that an english couple in ulbster are trying to lay claim to the carpark at the top of whaligoe as they say it is on their land and also the steps themselves, how ridiculous is that?
The angry locals are up in arms.[lol]
j4bberw0ck
23-Sep-06, 17:13
Should be easy enough to sort out by reference to the deeds..... the land'll be registered now anyway if they're reasonably recent purchasers so anyone can examine the land records. If they own it, they own it. If they don't, they don't. It'll all be in the paperwork.
Be a bit shortsighted, though, for someone who's just moved in (if that's the case) to overturn accepted local practice. Negotiation would seem to be the way to go.
An Englishman. :lol:
cuddlepop
23-Sep-06, 18:02
If I remember right aren't the steps a wee bit away from the car park?Did the couple buy the house at the top of the steps?
The people who bought Neisse point lighthouse on Skye tried to stop access down to it but failed miserably.Here's hoping the steps remain public access.
Naefearjustbeer
23-Sep-06, 18:08
Calmed down a bit now.
It is pretty damm ignorant if you ask me.
If I remember right aren't the steps a wee bit away from the car park?Did the couple buy the house at the top of the steps?
The people who bought Neisse point lighthouse on Skye tried to stop access down to it but failed miserably.Here's hoping the steps remain public access.
As far as I know they have the house at the top of the steps.
Naefearjustbeer
23-Sep-06, 18:15
Surely the fact that the steps have had public access since they were built then the status quo must remain. They would have a difficult job stopping folk from using them (legally that is) If they were to build a fence or try to block them in any way then that would be criminal. What about the folk that do maintenance on the steps what do they have to say on the matter?
rockchick
23-Sep-06, 20:19
Isn't there a Right to Roam in Scotland? Wouldn't the steps come under this Act? Sorry if I'm way off base here, but I'm woefully ignorant of Scottish law (colonials, you know...)
I guess the big problem will be if they do own it who is to maintain it? They probably cant and if it is unsafe then what?
Naefearjustbeer
23-Sep-06, 20:56
Isn't there a Right to Roam in Scotland? Wouldn't the steps come under this Act? Sorry if I'm way off base here, but I'm woefully ignorant of Scottish law (colonials, you know...)
We have the right of access to pretty much anywhere that you can get on foot, horseback or bicycle. Apart from certain restricted places such as somones garden, airports, MOD bases, Nuclear plant etc. If they are trying to say that the access to whaligeo steps is through there land then so what you are allowed on open land. As long as you are not commiting a crime. However if it is their garden then that might be a different situation all together.
j4bberw0ck
23-Sep-06, 22:06
I think that before anyone starts getting excited, the deeds to their property should be checked.
If they own the land, they didn't make the law about whether someone has or has not access to the steps; they may just be exercising their legal rights.
Naefearjustbeer
23-Sep-06, 22:29
JUst because you own a bit of land doesnt mean you have the right to stop access. That is the point that I am trying to make.
Naefearjustbeer
23-Sep-06, 22:34
Copied from this site
http://www.scotways.com/faqs/detail.php?catid=10#76
7. Where do access rights not apply?
The main places where access rights are not exercisable are:
· Houses and other residences, and sufficient space around them to give residents reasonable privacy and lack of disturbance – this will often be the garden area.
· Other buildings, works and structures, and the areas around them (curtilages).
· Land where crops are growing. Grass is not treated as a crop, except hay and silage in the late stages of growth. You can exercise access rights on field margins.
· Land next to and used by a school.
· Places, such as visitor attractions, which charge for entry.
· Land on which building or engineering works are being carried out, or which is being used for mineral working or quarrying.
· Land developed and in use for a particular recreational purpose, where the exercise of access rights would interfere with this use.
· Land set out for a particular recreational purpose or as a sports or playing field, when it is being used for that purpose and exercise of the rights would interfere with the use. But rights never apply to specially prepared sports surfaces – golf greens, tennis courts or bowling greens.
I would suspect that the Steps are a right of way through common usage. I'm no Legal Eagle, but I would suspect it would be very difficult to claim ownership of something which has been in constant use by the public for over two centuries.
j4bberw0ck
24-Sep-06, 07:47
Excuse me, but Abdullah's original post said:
couple in ulbster are trying to lay claim to the carpark at the top of whaligoe as they say it is on their land and also the steps themselves
(my emboldening).
This implies there's some dispute over whether they own it or not. The deeds will describe the land over which they have title. That's stage 1. Simple. Someone presumably owns the land, after all.
Access rights get looked at after that, then rights of way, other burdens and so on.
If Abdullah meant that they do own the land and what's happening is they're trying to stop others crossing it, that's different.
Naefearjustbeer
24-Sep-06, 08:38
Yes they may own it all. Still doesnt mean they are allowed to restrict access.
peter macdonald
24-Sep-06, 09:51
Im sure that the access to Whaligoe will be a public right of way as is the access to Sarclet haven and to block access is to break the law. I also suspect that that Whaligoe is still classed as a Salmon fishing station (it was described as such in "the law of sea fishing in Scotland" )and there could well be access rights with that .
Ill need to get into the library to make sure of it though
I just dont get why people have to be so ackward about access ..the law is very clear about this in Scotland as has been described by Naefear etc If people have moved in from places who dont share our legal system then they should make themselves aquainted with it before "chancin thur hand"
j4bberw0ck
24-Sep-06, 10:36
Definition of a right of way from SNH (http://www.snh.org.uk/pdfs/access/sr-sprow.pdf#search=%22public%20rights%20of%20way%20s cotland%22) - note requirement that two public places be linked. Back to the question of ownership....
Outline of access rights (http://www.outdooraccess-scotland.com/default.asp?nPageID=249) - note restriction on houses and gardens and breach of privacy
I just dont get why people have to be so ackward about access ..the law is very clear about this in Scotland as has been described by Naefear etc If people have moved in from places who dont share our legal system then they should make themselves aquainted with it before "chancin thur hand"
I agree wholeheartedly about people who seem intent on overturning accepted local practice just for the sake of it, but for the record, don't believe it matters a rat's backside about whether they come from a "different legal system" or not. On the other hand, everyone - be they from the Scottish legal system or elsewhere - has "rights". A bit of restraint and a bit of balance and a bit of mutual understanding usually doen't go amiss in situations like this.
Like starting right at the beginning and establishing whether they own the land in the first place! :lol:
peter macdonald
24-Sep-06, 11:31
Jabberwok The point Im making is that the law of access is different to that in the USA England Ireland etc etc and surely if you were to buy property in a place that uses a different legal system it is prudent to make yourself aquainted with the law in that place regarding mineral rights, hunting access (very common if the gound has been bought from an estate), access to archelogical sites etc etc . In fact you would have to be either daft not too !!
As regards the folk who have bought the house as Naefear and your self have pointed out their rights of privicy garden rights etc should be upheld and protected equally in law according to their deeds
However right of access law in Scotland is pretty clear as the folks at the lighthouse in Skye found out along with a lot of others who have tried to gate off public rights of ways both in town and country.
Whaligoe had fishing boats working out of up until aprox 1970 (Wullie B Sinclair had one) and as I said in a previous post Im almost sure it is still classed as a salmon fishing station (there are pictures of salmon nets drying there from aprox 1960s in "Caithness a cultural crossroads") It would be interesting to see who actually owns Whaligoe if it is the same set up as at Sarclet haven then it will the estate with a public access through it to the haven
pultneytooner
24-Sep-06, 11:34
Jabberwok The point Im making is that the law of access is different to that in the USA England Ireland etc etc and surely if you were to buy property in a place that uses a different legal system it is prudent to make yourself aquainted with the law in that place regarding mineral rights, hunting access (very common if the gound has been bought from an estate), access to archelogical sites etc etc . In fact you would have to be either daft not too !!
As regards the folk who have bought the house as Naefear and your self have pointed out their rights of privicy garden rights etc should be upheld and protected equally in law according to their deeds
However right of access law in Scotland is pretty clear as the folks at the lighthouse in Skye found out along with a lot of others who have tried to gate off public rights of ways both in town and country.
Whaligoe had fishing boats working out of up until aprox 1970 (Wullie B Sinclair had one) and as I said in a previous post Im almost sure it is still classed as a salmon fishing station (there are pictures of salmon nets drying there from aprox 1960s in "Caithness a cultural crossroads") It would be interesting to see who actually owns Whaligoe if it is the same set up as at Sarclet haven then it will the estate with a public access through it to the haven
I'd imagine it's owned by thrumster estate.
peter macdonald
24-Sep-06, 12:07
tooner Would it not be too far south for the Thrumster Estate?? I dont know if the Ulster estate has it??
Anyway if you look at the planning list for Highland Planning applications for 12th July 2006 then you may get a clue where this has stemmed from
and as you may have guessed its my last post on the thread!!!!
So is the idea then to open a cafe there and charge folk to go down to the steps? Think there would be a mini revolution if they tried that one with Caithness folk!!!
rockchick
24-Sep-06, 16:38
Not much different than what happened at Skara Brae, tho, is it?
Laff...I'd like to see them get insurance to cover tourists going up and down those steps in Caithness weather! Premiums would be sky-high, even if they could get cover.
Unless I've missed something in these posts I suspect the point of issue is probably about the right to park cars on the area of land in question not about access over the same area. Access rights under the new system contained in the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 don't include the right to park your car unless the area happens to be within the adopted roads system and maintained by Highland Council as Roads Authority for the area.
However, the Council very often doesn't own the land the road or car park is built on but simply manages it and maintains it under authority conferred upon it by Act of Parliament. This is fine so long as it is used for this purpose but if it ever ceases to be so then the disused road reverts to the original land owner as frequently happens when realignments are carried out. Similarly many sections of railway have never been "bought" and there are many instances where old railway lines have ended up back in a landowners hands sometimes to the surprise of current owners.
The old, and still running alongside new access rights, rights of way system requires four basic tests to be fulfilled before a right of way can be claimed and the presumption is always that there is no right of way unless the landowner admitts it or you can prove him wrong. These are:
1. It should connect two public places.
2. It should be used for more than 20 years.
3. It should be used withiout obstruction.
4. It should be used without asking permission.
I would have a slight worry about the harbour still being a public place because it is no longer fully used or maintained by the piers and harbour authority, Highland Council. It could possibly be regarded as a "Place of public resort" but that has not yet been verified in any court case.
Of course rights of way are possibly less significant now in the wider countryside given new access rights but they are now more important where you enter what is termed the "curtilage" of a property and new rights may not apply.
The new law obviously has to bed in but is very welcome as let's face there were very few restrictions on access from post glaciation 10,000 years ago until some four or five hundred years ago when lawyers crawled out from under a stone. You'll have heard the one about the lawyer who set up in a small town and found everything very quite until he sent asked another lawyer to open another office and soon there was plenty of work for both of them!
pultneytooner
24-Sep-06, 21:20
So is the idea then to open a cafe there and charge folk to go down to the steps? Think there would be a mini revolution if they tried that one with Caithness folk!!!
Seemingly they are planning to open a cafe there.
As for taking resposibility for the steps then I would think this unwise as from a safety point of view it would be too much for someone to take on as they would be responsible for the maintainance and also, god forbid, if anybody had an accident there which as far as I know has happened inb the past.
cuddlepop
24-Sep-06, 21:35
Have they applied for planning permission for the cafe?.It seems hard to believe that access will be denied if they approve a cafe to be situated on the premises.The steps are not clearlly advertised for fear of prosecution so are the new owners going to maintain the steps so they can advertise the cafe?
There seems to be lots of questions that need answers here.:confused
Naefearjustbeer
24-Sep-06, 21:54
http://www.whoownsscotland.org.uk/page_cache/showlargemap.php?cid=ca&map=thrumster_map.jpg
This shows the extent of the Thrumster estate
If they apply for Planning Permission for a cafe then Caithness's finest Councillors will no doubt take all of the concerns expressed here on board via our man in the know Bill Fernie.
What would you name a cafe in such a situation and would the sale of alcoholic beverages be permitted to anyone braving the steps or perhaps even be considered de rigeur for faint hearted visitors seeking to summon up the necessary courage to tackle the fearfull and terrifying exposure above the surging ocean?
pultneytooner
25-Sep-06, 22:19
If they apply for Planning Permission for a cafe then Caithness's finest Councillors will no doubt take all of the concerns expressed here on board via our man in the know Bill Fernie.
What would you name a cafe in such a situation and would the sale of alcoholic beverages be permitted to anyone braving the steps or perhaps even be considered de rigeur for faint hearted visitors seeking to summon up the necessary courage to tackle the fearfull and terrifying exposure above the surging ocean?
Coffee to whali go.[lol]
Hi,
I just logged on and found an absolute load of rubbish being posted about what is going on here at Whaligoe, and I'd like to put a few things straight.
1 - At no point have we ever tried to claim that the car park at the top of the steps is on our land - it is owned by the council.
2 - At no point have we ever tried to limit or cease access to the steps - the access to the steps is indeed over our land, but as we are all aware, there is a right of way, and we have never tried to stop anyone from using it.
3 - In fact, as we anticipate that much of our business for the cafe will come from visitors to the steps, the opposite is true, we would welcome any visitors that choose to come to Whaligoe.
4 - We have applied for, and received, planning permission to open a cafe in part of our house at the top of the steps - this will be something that people can choose to use or not - there is no way (and no desire) to force people to use it!
5 - We're not english, Rod is Scots, and grew up here in Caithness, and I'm Welsh / Maltese - so not a drop of english blood between us!
I don't understand how such rubbish can have been published on a public site without any attempt to check the truth of what was being said - it is very upsetting.
Whaligoe is our home, and the home of our family, and we are trying to get in place a small business which can sustain us and help us to remain in the area that we love.
K Davies & R Mann
I heard a story that an english couple in ulbster are trying to lay claim to the carpark at the top of whaligoe as they say it is on their land and also the steps themselves, how ridiculous is that?
The angry locals are up in arms.[lol]
and people wonder why the scots look so dimly upon the English sorry I think their a little bit arrogant
changilass
25-Jan-07, 20:01
and people wonder why the scots look so dimly upon the English sorry I think their a little bit arrogant
Read the post above yours and you will see that they are not in fact English so your comment is inapropriate.
Thanks Whaligoe for clearing the matter up, look forward to visiting the steps when the weather is better:D Wish you all the best with the cafe
Bill Fernie
25-Jan-07, 21:04
Once the cafe is ready to go don't forget to let us know here at the web site and we will make appropriate announcments that you are up and running.
Also take advantage of the free business page by completing the online for at http://www.caithness-business.co.uk/submit_details.php
Good luck with your new venture
Bill Fernie
I think it's a great idea - anything that encourages tourism - good luck with the venture - I hope it works out. Keep us posted!
Whaligoe is a beautiful place. Good luck with the cafe. I sure could have used a cuppa after racing Sassylass back to the top! Whew.
this is totally totally sad. Spent many a day at Whaligoe and only because of people like Iain at the Heritage centre in Wick who have done all the work on the upkeep of the steps for years. These people who think they own the place need to be put in their place!
I don't think they do think they own the place I think they just want to open a cafe on the bit they do own!
Murdina Bug
25-Jan-07, 23:26
this is totally totally sad. These people who think they own the place need to be put in their place!
Take a peek further back up the page Sweetpea at Whaligoe's post!! I think what she has said clears the matter right up - the only person who needs to be put in their place was the original poster who started a bigoted thread!
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_11.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZNxmk696LDGB) funny how things get blown out of proportion & how one thing leads to another. nearly had an uproar here just because some one said that the land above whaligoe steps belonged to the people that bought the house there.
then the auld enemy was taken into the equation, what next. still it was interesting reading for a wee while .
good luck to the people involved & i hope the cafe turns out to be a great success. i will certainly use it if visiting the steps.
http://www.smileycentral.com/sig.jsp?pc=ZSzeb112&pp=ZNxmk696LDGB (http://smiley.smileycentral.com/download/index.jhtml?partner=ZSzeb112_ZNxmk696LDGB&utm_id=7920)
Sorry for not reading what went before I just think it's a shame to commercialise these places. Ok a cafe might work but we never had one for years and it didn't seem to bother all the visitors, even Billy Connely
futurelegends
25-Jan-07, 23:42
I heard a story that an english couple in ulbster are trying to lay claim to the carpark at the top of whaligoe as they say it is on their land and also the steps themselves, how ridiculous is that?
The angry locals are up in arms.[lol]
They're Not Trying To Get a Cinema In Thrumster as Well Are They?
Think there would be many people welcome a cuppa after climbing these steps. There is always room for improvement and good thinking on the people with the idea they will soon know when the tourism starts if it is going to work or not. Also once people get to know it is there they will probably get a lot of passing trade. Good Luck in your new venture
They're Not Trying To Get a Cinema In Thrumster as Well Are They?
dunno about that but there used to be some great dances in thrumster hall.
;)
George Brims
26-Jan-07, 02:04
Good luck Whaligoe with the cafe venture. Many years ago (the 1980s) when the house was renovated and put on the market my wife and I thought we would like to buy it and do B&B there, and maybe have a restaurant. Fortunately we didn't have the money to buy it! I don't think we would have done very well. I suppose the idea of having it there, where my great-grandfather used to be a fisherman, was a lot of the appeal.
Hi,
I just logged on and found an absolute load of rubbish being posted about what is going on here at Whaligoe, and I'd like to put a few things straight.
1 - At no point have we ever tried to claim that the car park at the top of the steps is on our land - it is owned by the council.
2 - At no point have we ever tried to limit or cease access to the steps - the access to the steps is indeed over our land, but as we are all aware, there is a right of way, and we have never tried to stop anyone from using it.
3 - In fact, as we anticipate that much of our business for the cafe will come from visitors to the steps, the opposite is true, we would welcome any visitors that choose to come to Whaligoe.
4 - We have applied for, and received, planning permission to open a cafe in part of our house at the top of the steps - this will be something that people can choose to use or not - there is no way (and no desire) to force people to use it!
5 - We're not english, Rod is Scots, and grew up here in Caithness, and I'm Welsh / Maltese - so not a drop of english blood between us!
I don't understand how such rubbish can have been published on a public site without any attempt to check the truth of what was being said - it is very upsetting.
Whaligoe is our home, and the home of our family, and we are trying to get in place a small business which can sustain us and help us to remain in the area that we love.
K Davies & R Mann
I am so glad you read this thread and added the truth. I was just about to post a post, saying why don't all those concerned, go and find the truth instead of typing a load of speculation and rubbish!! I wish you well with the Cafe venture, and maybe if Billy Connelly visits the steps again, he might pop in to see you instead of going back to Ackergill Tower for some food!!
All the best Whaligoe!!
yes good luck with your venture hope it goes well for you both ...
Just shows how one ill-informed post can start a whole range of inaccurate and unpleasant rumours varying from racist (they're English - which we now know they're not) to luddite (we've never needed it before so why do we want it now). Just as well the majority of orgers are not like that or I'd have been gone long since. Full marks to the current owners of the house for showing a bit of initiative which I'm sure will be very welcome to all visiting the steps. I'm sure they'll be kept busy through the summer with those brave souls who make it down and back up again with their tongues hanging out.
The only place in Caithness that I've encountered racism is on this forum. Obviously only from a small minority but, as an English incomer, it does emphasise that I'm still an outsider and always will be.
Read the post above yours and you will see that they are not in fact English so your comment is inapropriate.
Thanks Whaligoe for clearing the matter up, look forward to visiting the steps when the weather is better:D Wish you all the best with the cafe
I accept and apologise for offering my opinion to the apearence of the thread at the time of writing. I`m grateful that `Whaligoe' could clear it up. and I thank you for pointing out my misdeamer
the charlatans
26-Jan-07, 22:36
The only place in Caithness that I've encountered racism is on this forum. Obviously only from a small minority but, as an English incomer, it does emphasise that I'm still an outsider and always will be.[/quote]
lucky you Badger. i'm afraid its out there much more than you've encountered. Its something that i hear alot although in an indirect manner to myself. my mother and my in laws are from sooth of the border and although they've all lived up here longer than i've been alive its a fact they are English. I'm Caithness born and bred and people asume its okay to spout off about 'The English' just because i've got a Scottish accent i will join in. It used to annoy me terribly as my mum is one of the kindest souls i've ever met. But now i just enjoy asking if they've met every single English person out there and were they all so bad. Its ignorant. Ignorance isn't bliss sometimes when i get on my high horse!
the forum can be skewed to state rather strong views due to the fact people are on here under a log in name and its easy to spew out strong views when you don't have to be face to face with your subject.
i'll now get down from this high horse. its giving me a nose bleed being so high up.
i think the community should support a new venture and since Whaligoes response they seem to be. I hope they do good scones and i'll be by to test them out. All e best. :)
Whaligoe - thank you for your posting and best of luck with your venture. I'll certainly pop in for a scone (you'll do scones?!) and a coffee when you're up and running!
I'm a little dismayed to find the English so 'dissed' folks - although maybe you have a unfair allocation of English twits who turn up out of nowhere and starting 'owning the place' and causing problems so perhaps there is cause. Mind you, an numpty is a numpty whatever race he comes from. As someone who was brought up in England I neither like nor loathe the English, my own background does include English blood although my family stems from Europe, France mainly.
I'm commenting because things seemed to fly off the handle blaming typical English arrogance when the facts were miles off.
I go with the line from the Depeche Mode song, "People are People". I hold certain views about people from many races but everyone is unique and should be judged accordingly. (as far as it goes, I'm a chatterbox boffin :) )
I pleased that the rumours turned out to be baseless, and look forward to the Cafe - best of luck getting planning permission goes through - sounds like a nice idea.
the charlatans, you were obviously typing at the same time I was, it struck me as well that there was a definite slant to the thread.
Interesting that you're after scones too!
the charlatans
26-Jan-07, 23:57
ye canny beat a good scone. a nice fluffy tall scone, with butter and jam thank you. yum
Whaligoe, take note here please. you'll have .orgers running through the doors if you do nice fluffy tall scones with butter and jam and a nice cup o tea.
drool
Good luck with the cafe Whaligoe - great idea. I think a few red-faced people on here should apologise for some of the accusations above, thank God that attitude is pretty uncommon on this forum!
connieb19
27-Jan-07, 00:26
To be fair, the person who started the thread is banned which would make it rather difficult for them to apologise. :roll:
changilass
27-Jan-07, 00:32
lol Connie, good point:lol:
Without going right back to the beginning and checking right through the thread, I seem to recall there was more than one poster intent on adding fuel to the inferno for whatever reason.
It certainly looked like there was a lot of mischief making going on, not one scrap of which would appear to be anywhere near the truth of the matter.
It would be interesting to know what the mischief was intended to do and what advantage was hoped to be gained by those helping create it.
Without going right back to the beginning and checking right through the thread, I seem to recall there was more than one poster intent on adding fuel to the inferno for whatever reason.
That's what happens when a thread is started by someone's sock.
In the news today as part of an article in The Herald Magazine (including photo) as it's in conjunction with a photography competition about the coast. Also a picture of one Mr John Sutherland posing with guitar outside house up at Dunnet Head. Perhaps an increase in visitors to the Caithness coast this year?
Tugmistress
03-Feb-07, 15:29
With a view like this possible at the bottom of the steps, i wish you every success with your cafe :D
http://www.photographs4sale.co.uk/images/rsgallery/display/whaligoe.JPG.jpg
sassylass
03-Feb-07, 18:53
Good luck to you whaligoe and thanks for the clarifications. I must admit to having reservations when I first heard about a cafe there. Visions of overdevelopment flooded my mind's eye, it would be terrible to lose the tranquility and solitude of that special place.
It's good to know that you welcome visitors. I was always a bit nervous crossing your land, but I'll no longer feel like a trespasser.
p.s. strawberry jam is my favourite on scones.
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