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Leanne
12-Jun-11, 10:45
Just putting a little thread on to let people know that you can turn the spell checker on in your browser. That way any spelling mistakes come up with a red line underneath and all you need to do is right click and select the correct spelling :) If you use Safari there is even an option to check you grammar too...

Avoids the embarrassment of a post riddled with spelling mistakes and stops the anal people like me cringing :)

tori
12-Jun-11, 11:59
not all people learnt in school as long as people can read what u write i dont see a proplem

Leanne
12-Jun-11, 13:30
not all people learnt in school as long as people can read what u write i dont see a proplem

The thread isn't about the rights and wrongs of spelling - it is about showing people that you can correct the mistakes with very little effort. All it takes is for someone to care. After all, I would hope that when we speak we don't mumble - we try to make ourselves understood in our speech, why not our written communication? Are people not embarrassed? I would be...

Edit

I know that people can be dyslexic but you can tell when a dyslexic person types. When someone who is just lazy or doesn't care types it is phonetically readable.

And nonsense to not learning at school- everyone learns basic spelling and math at school. With modern technology to not correct your spelling mistakes is not due to poor education, it is due to laziness. Like putting 'u' instead of 'you' - come on, surely you can spell that?

Whether you learn at school or not, correct spelling and grammar is learned through reading, which is why some are much better debaters than others. Read well and you have the tools to debate well :)

Shabbychic
12-Jun-11, 13:33
The problem with spell checkers is they don't help if the wrong word is used to start with...e.g. loose/lose, weather/whether, there/their, or where/were. They also don't help with tenses. My pet hates....I am sat, I am stood, and I am laying.

With regards to the usual answer of it not mattering as long as others know what you are saying, that only encourages many to not even try. It is also the reason why many university graduates are unemployed. I have read time and time again about employers putting CVs and application forms straight into the bin because of spelling and grammatical errors.

The education system has been too lax for too long, resulting in a 'who cares' culture. I saw a programme on CH4 one night, and it was found that many teachers can't even spell or count properly. What chance do the kids have?

Spell checkers would however, help immensely in at least trying to decipher what some are trying to say. I have on many occasions on here, and other places, sat and stared at a post, totally unable to even get the gist of it.

Paragraphs in long posts also helps.

Corrie 3
12-Jun-11, 13:36
not all people learnt in school as long as people can read what u write i dont see a proplem
As my old Dad says.......As long as you can sign your name at the Dole Office you will be fine!!!!!!

C3..................:roll:;)

veekay
12-Jun-11, 13:38
Another annoying - well I find it annoying anyway - thing about spell checkers is the way they offer an American spelling of a word. I much prefer the English spelling which is always the correct way of spelling !!

Leanne
12-Jun-11, 13:40
Another annoying - well I find it annoying anyway - thing about spell checkers is the way they offer an American spelling of a word. I much prefer the English spelling which is always the correct way of spelling !!

You can change your settings to UK English. It's annoying that it defaults to US though grrr

Leanne
12-Jun-11, 13:42
Just found something really funny - select the text that is written poorly and then click 'spoken' and hear the computer try to decipher what on earth is going on lol

Edit

This is funny as without proper punctuation it sounds very boring and monotonous... 'not all people learnt in school as long as people can read what u write i dont see a proplem'

Try it with this and it sounds much more interesting :) 'Not all people learned at school. As long as people can read what you write, I don't see a problem.'

Edit 2 - I wonder if people who can't spell and have poor grammar speak like they grammatically type? Must make for a very dull conversation lol

pmcd
12-Jun-11, 17:41
Lovely tale about an American University undergraduate who wanted an internship in Hillary Clinton's office. So he typed out a smart CV, and an even smarter covering letter. Being a top "A" grade student, and with a bit of a nudge from his politician father, he thought he had a very good chance. He put the whole thing through a spelling check, printed it straight away, and posted it.

He was amazed to get a very terse letter turning him down as "manifestly unsuitable".

What had gone wrong? He pulled up a copy of what he had sent to HC's office.

The CV was perfect.

However, the letter to Mrs Clinton had two spelling changes carried out by the spellcheck.

His letter had begun

"Dear Hilarious Clitoris........."

John Little
12-Jun-11, 17:59
Oh - I do hope that is true...:lol::Razz:D

shazzap
12-Jun-11, 18:05
As my old Dad says.......As long as you can sign your name at the Dole Office you will be fine!!!!!!

C3..................:roll:;)

Trust you. Ha ha. :lol:

Corrie 3
12-Jun-11, 18:12
[/QUOTE]=Corrie3 ..As my old Dad says.......As long as you can sign your name at the Dole Office you will be fine!!!!!!



[QUOTE=shazzap;859202]Trust you. Ha ha. :lol:

And I asked him why he didnt give me a middle name......."To make it easier for you when you sign on the dole" was the reply...

C3.....:eek::roll:

oldmarine
12-Jun-11, 18:20
Some good comments on here. I enjoyed reading all of them and had a great laugh along the way.

Kevin Milkins
12-Jun-11, 22:03
I used to use the spell check on my google task bar, but when the forum was updated I found that when I pressed spellcheck my post would disapear.

I have tried all ways to get a spell check back, but with no luck, all advice wellcome as I am poor at spelling.

tori
12-Jun-11, 22:09
I used to use the spell check on my google task bar, but when the forum was updated I found that when I pressed spellcheck my post would disapear.

I have tried all ways to get a spell check back, but with no luck, all advice wellcome as I am poor at spelling.

what web browser have you got i have Google chrome and it under lines the mistake in red and then u left click it and find the right spelling and click on it

Kevin Milkins
12-Jun-11, 22:41
what web browser have you got i have Google chrome and it under lines the mistake in red and then u left click it and find the right spelling and click on it

I use Internet Explorer, but have a google tool bar that used to work well until the org changed. I did a post some time ago in the technicle thread about it, but got no replys.

Mystical Potato Head
12-Jun-11, 22:57
what web browser have you got i have Google chrome and it under lines the mistake in red and then u left click it and find the right spelling and click on it

It doesnt have a full stop checker then?

shazzap
12-Jun-11, 23:10
It doesnt have a full stop checker then?

Just Semicolons. Oh and commas.:D

tori
13-Jun-11, 00:03
It doesnt have a full stop checker then?

lol dont think so

Walter Ego
13-Jun-11, 06:53
...........

Avoids the embarrassment of a post riddled with spelling mistakes and stops the anal people like me cringing :)

Ahem.

No 'the' in between 'stops' and 'anal'. Or at least 'those'.....

It avoids the embarrassment of berating those around you whilst being no different yourself.

ducati
13-Jun-11, 06:58
I use Internet Explorer, but have a google tool bar that used to work well until the org changed. I did a post some time ago in the technicle thread about it, but got no replys.

So is it working now? [lol]

Kevin Milkins
13-Jun-11, 07:53
So is it working now? [lol]

Guess,;):lol:

Phill
13-Jun-11, 09:24
Edjukashun edjukashun edjukashun!

_Ju_
13-Jun-11, 11:43
I have posted this one before:

"Woman without her man is nothing"

“Woman, without her man, is nothing.”

“Woman: without her, man is nothing.”

pmcd
13-Jun-11, 13:23
I've often wondered what Mr. Marley meant when he opined

"No woman no cry"

Did he mean "If you haven't got a woman then you've no cause for tears"

Or did he mean "There, there, woman, please don't cry"

Having met his delightful wife, Rita, I think the first possible meaning is unlikely.

You're right. Name dropping is SOOO yesterday!

Leanne
13-Jun-11, 17:48
Ahem.

No 'the' in between 'stops' and 'anal'. Or at least 'those'.....

It avoids the embarrassment of berating those around you whilst being no different yourself.

I think, if you check, you will find that both ways are correct :P It is down to personal preference and social upbringing which gets used. Grammar can be a good barometer of class - mine being working and non-grammar school (hence the choice).

The thread was started to show people that there is a function to prevent poor spelling. It was to help people and prevent them inadvertently looking silly.

Can't do right for doing wrong...

Kevin Milkins
13-Jun-11, 18:56
The thread was started to show people that there is a function to prevent poor spelling.

A good thread, but I still can't work out why my post disapear when I press the spell checker on my google tool bar, and I also couldn't find the place to tick in my brouser.:confused

Walter Ego
13-Jun-11, 20:18
Right between the eyes......

trix
16-Jun-11, 00:49
I've often wondered what Mr. Marley meant when he opined

"No woman no cry"



'e song is aboot his wee sister, she died o' meningitis i think, when she wis a little girl.

he ment that she's no here anymore so she cana feel any pain..."little darlin dont shed no tears, no woman no cry"

shazzap
16-Jun-11, 08:47
'e song is aboot his wee sister, she died o' meningitis i think, when she wis a little girl.

he ment that she's no here anymore so she cana feel any pain..."little darlin dont shed no tears, no woman no cry"

I bet the spell checker, has a great time with you, trix. Ha ha.

Dusty
16-Jun-11, 09:42
Eye halve a spelling chequer,

It came with my PeaSea,
It plainly marques four my revue,
Miss stakes eye kin not sea.



I tapa quay and type a word,

And weight four it two say,
Weather eye am wrong oar wright,

It shows me strait aweigh.



Ass soon as a miss ache is maid,
It nose before two long,
And eye kin putt the error rite,
It’s rarely ever wrong.



I half run this poem threw it,
And I’m sure you’re pleased to no,
It’s letter perfect awl the weigh,
My chequer tolled me sew.

nightowl
16-Jun-11, 12:13
At the risk of being sent to Coventry for ever, I must say I'm with Leanne on this one. I would go further however, as I believe that simple grammar is even more important. I'm not talking parsing and split infinitives, just the simple use of capital letters, full stops and commas.
As many of us already know, the absence or misplacing of a comma can change the whole meaning of a sentence and no capitals or full stops can reduce a statement to gobbledegook. I often wondered if so many of the “fallouts” on this forum were due to posts being misunderstood because of the grammar used. Bad spelling is just laziness as there are so many devices to correct it.
As the mode of writing is the only way to judge fellow posters, rightly or wrongly, I am guilty of forming opinions based as much on the grammar and spelling as on the actual content.
This surely must apply to employers too, when they are looking over CVs. I know I would think twice about employing someone who couldn't even be bothered to check their spelling.
In the end though, I suppose it just depends where in life you want to be, how far you want to go, and how well you need to be understood to get there.

Carole
17-Jun-11, 00:25
At the risk of being sent to Coventry for ever, I must say I'm with Leanne on this one. I would go further however, as I believe that simple grammar is even more important. I'm not talking parsing and split infinitives, just the simple use of capital letters, full stops and commas.
As many of us already know, the absence or misplacing of a comma can change the whole meaning of a sentence and no capitals or full stops can reduce a statement to gobbledegook. I often wondered if so many of the “fallouts” on this forum were due to posts being misunderstood because of the grammar used. Bad spelling is just laziness as there are so many devices to correct it.
As the mode of writing is the only way to judge fellow posters, rightly or wrongly, I am guilty of forming opinions based as much on the grammar and spelling as on the actual content.
This surely must apply to employers too, when they are looking over CVs. I know I would think twice about employing someone who couldn't even be bothered to check their spelling.
In the end though, I suppose it just depends where in life you want to be, how far you want to go, and how well you need to be understood to get there.

Don't know why I am surprised to say this but ... I agree with every point you have made - so clearly and eloquently. Thank you for saving me the bother!

secrets in symmetry
17-Jun-11, 00:30
Don't know why I am surprised to say this but ... I agree with every point you have made - so clearly and eloquently. Thank you for saving me the bother!Me too. Thank you nightowl for posting what I couldn't get off my fat bottom to try to say...

northener
17-Jun-11, 09:48
So we are saying good grammar and punctuation is linked to intelligence and informed opinion? And that bad grammar must imply that the poster and their viewpoint is somehow less worthy?

What a load of pompous rubbish. This is a community forum, where anyone - regardless of their command of the written language - should be made welcome. It is their opinion that counts, not their ability to type the written word to a standard that will appease self-appointed internet police, pedants and dullards.

Some of you lot need to get out more.

pmcd
17-Jun-11, 11:23
Nothing wrong with dialect or accent, RP or slang, Northern or Southern, or indeed any version of English in its American/Caribbean/Indian/Rest of World usages. What IS sad is seeing an otherwise bright and intelligent argument marred by dodgy spellings or bad basic grammar.

It is interesting that most intelligent and articulate people can get their heads round the components, mechanics and gears of the language.

And there will always be those who sit in judgement - especially when it comes to employment.

I used to employ people, and I can't begin to tell you how many times I turned down candidates at the CV stage because of their sad attempts at communication, often resulting in shabby, ill-conceived, badly spelt, and ungrammatical attempts at sentences.

So, some people don't think it matters much.

But bad grammar and misspelling are the written equivalent of mumbling, and not looking your interlocutor straight in the eye. Sure, the message is still there, but it is less likely to be well received. You wouldn't put a Picasso in a Primark picture frame.....

Good use of language is based on respect: those who treat it as the jewel it is will find huge reward in listening to, reading, and saying it. The reward is intrinsic, but it has the wonderful spin-off that you are instantly more employable if you can use it to advantage.

That doesn't mean to say that those who can't master the language are inferior. Maybe they suffer from learning difficulties, have dyslexia, speech impediments, or other disabilities such as deafness, blindness, or other debilitating condition. We should not seek to diminish their contribution.

BUT those who use the tools of communication badly because "it doesn't matter" (i.e., they can't be bothered to get it right) deserve to be left beyond the pale until they grow up.

nightowl
17-Jun-11, 13:21
For many years looking in on this forum, I have despaired when I see the comment that simple grammar does not matter, when so clearly it does. See pmcd's post.
If you are a bookreader, like me, it is so easy to take grammar for granted. Just imagine the nightmare of trying to read a bestseller with no capitals, commas or fullstops, and random spelling.
But I suppose in the end it is down to personal choice. As long as you are aware that,whether they make it public or not, others will be forming opinions about your ability to fit into a workplace, for example, and that first impression often comes with the job application.

northener
17-Jun-11, 14:37
But the whole point is that this is NOT a job application process, it is NOT a centre of learning and it certainly is not a place where people should be judged by their capacity to write.

To me, this place is no different from having a conversation with someone in a pub. I don't expect full-on eye contact, I don't expect Queens Engerlish or even proper sentence construction. As long as I can understand what they are saying, then fine.


There's a world of difference between, say, someone mis-spellung a few words and having poor paragraphing skills and someone who deliberately post in the "lol wot u like lol u is not like me is u is a pedant lol and i hate u and all ur friends lol and i don't come on here to be lectured on wot i says cos lol i is from somewhere u is not and all my friends hate u lol and lol my cat hates your da lol" stylee.

The former wouldn't even register with me, the second is, agreed, pure lazyiness. However, I believe the criticisms levelled in this thread are broad spectrum, not just aimed at the 'extreme' end of the scale - and that's what annoys me. The whole forum is littered with idiots tut-tutting at other posters (myself included, I suppose) communication skills, surely if someones' style bothers you that much - why don't you just ignore the post?

It's the content that matters, not how it is delivered.

Kells
17-Jun-11, 15:54
Well said Northener. Those who want to judge do so, but do not expect those you judge as being below your standards to be concerned about your opinion. It is easy to judge others by what they wear, how they talk and how they write but that does not make your judgment right or you a better person that the person you judge. If it makes you feel better about yourself for having a high standard then carry on judging others, it is a public forum and for you to enjoy in whatever way you wish.

pmcd
17-Jun-11, 17:32
I have an opinion

You are being dogmatic

He, she, it, is judgemental

We are right

You (Ye) are misguided

They are totalitarian.

Sorted! (Sadly, with little eye contact!)

secrets in symmetry
17-Jun-11, 21:49
So we are saying good grammar and punctuation is linked to intelligence and informed opinion? And that bad grammar must imply that the poster and their viewpoint is somehow less worthy?

What a load of pompous rubbish. This is a community forum, where anyone - regardless of their command of the written language - should be made welcome. It is their opinion that counts, not their ability to type the written word to a standard that will appease self-appointed internet police, pedants and dullards.

Some of you lot need to get out more.Pompous rubbish? From dullards who need to get out more? Oh, the ferricity...

Now we've traded customary jolly insults with gay abandon, the real point is surely that the jibes are aimed at the militant lazy illiterate tendency, not at the genuinely weak linguists.

northener
18-Jun-11, 07:26
Pompous rubbish? From dullards who need to get out more? Oh, the ferricity...

Now we've traded customary jolly insults with gay abandon, the real point is surely that the jibes are aimed at the militant lazy illiterate tendency, not at the genuinely weak linguists.

Nope, the real point is that there are always those who use their command of the written word as a weapon to beat others around the head with once they've run out of argument. Or they believe they are somehow intellectually superior. In posts above people have already stated they judge posters by their grammar and spelling when posting on here. That's tantamount to saying anyone who is semi-literate is of a lower intelligence.

As I said, these places are for communicating, not for the pseudo intellegentsia to score points off those less literate than themselves.

Anyway, must dash. I have to go out and work with people, some of whose command of the English language may not be up to my standard.
I think from now on I will pre-judge all my students. If they cannot produce a technically correct written statement before starting their lessons, then I will assume they are thick and that their opinions and learning skills are below par.[disgust]

pmcd
18-Jun-11, 09:21
"My students". Nuff said. Perhaps we are wrong to blame the up and coming generation - they are being taught by people who don't think the tools of language are very important.

Mystical Potato Head
18-Jun-11, 09:35
"My students". Nuff said. Perhaps we are wrong to blame the up and coming generation - they are being taught by people who don't think the tools of language are very important.

But at the same time use their command of the written word to show their intellectual superiority by using obscure,never before written on the Org phrases like "pseudo intellegentsia".........By using such a phrase they're doing nothing other than scoring points of the less literate themselves..Cant think of any fancy words that haven't appeared on here before so the word HYPOCRITE will have to do.

secrets in symmetry
18-Jun-11, 13:07
Nope, the real point is that there are always those who use their command of the written word as a weapon to beat others around the head with once they've run out of argument. Or they believe they are somehow intellectually superior. In posts above people have already stated they judge posters by their grammar and spelling when posting on here. That's tantamount to saying anyone who is semi-literate is of a lower intelligence.What you say does happen on here, but my point concerns the militant illiterate tendency who deliberately don't use punctuation, spell checkers, or upper case letters. They lash out aggressively when it's suggested (often helpfully and with good intention) that their posts are hard to read. They would have more influence if they didn't wilfully write incomprehensibly.

The bottom line is that they don't have much influence, which is their problem.

northener
18-Jun-11, 17:02
"My students". Nuff said. Perhaps we are wrong to blame the up and coming generation - they are being taught by people who don't think the tools of language are very important.

Do you mean that I shouldn't call them 'students'? Or are you saying that my lack of concern regarding their literary skills will somehow hinder their learning?

Your written word is a little confusing..........;)

northener
18-Jun-11, 17:08
But at the same time use their command of the written word to show their intellectual superiority by using obscure,never before written on the Org phrases like "pseudo intellegentsia".........By using such a phrase they're doing nothing other than scoring points of the less literate themselves..Cant think of any fancy words that haven't appeared on here before so the word HYPOCRITE will have to do.

Well, you could use the word 'hypocrite' - but you'd be wrong.

I'll use shorter words next time, just for you, MPH. Perhaps a drawing done in wax crayon as well?[lol]

pmcd
18-Jun-11, 18:20
Education in the UK (as it stands) looks for a degree of proficiency in 2 primary areas. Literacy and numeracy. Literacy means being able to read and write. Reading and writing need to be as accurate and comprehensible as is possible, as does numeracy. Thus, these subjects should be taught to a gold standard, even if only components of literacy and numeracy are embedded in any other subject, whether it be bricklaying, plumbing, architecture, fine art, languages or brain surgery.

As far as numeracy is concerned, I am sure you would not argue that variations in number from agreed arithmetical rules do not get in the way of the right - and only - answer. "2 x 15 = 43": "6+2+4" = 17". Numeracy needs to be as accurate as possible to ensure that number is reliable and consistently credible. In short, it can only work if it is spot on.

My argument is that the same argument should be applied to literacy. The business of spelling, writing, and shaping sentences (they don't have to be complex or erudite!) needs to be accurate, reliable, and credible. Why should we accept, or allow nonsense in the area of literacy when we don't allow it with numeracy?

This does not mean that the student who can't read, write and/or count is an inferior person. It means that such a student has been disadvantaged by any teacher who believes that accuracy is not important. That there are now so many students who have been thus disadvantaged says little for the Educrats who have allowed this reprehensible situation to flourish. The same Educrats who have been responsible for lowering standards since the 60s, and creating an environment where someone going to university at age 19 still may not be able read, write and count properly.

And who, at the end of a degree course, might still end up jobless because employers have seen through the Great Education Confidence Trick.

My anger is that we are handing the next generation damaged goods, and pretending that they are well-equipped.

Other countries have ignored the "trendy" teacher training activities of the UK, with its political agenda which pretends competition doesn't exist, nobody can actually be wrong, or lose from time, and that everyone's a winner - which demeans the extra effort of the brighter learner, and does the less bright learner no favours, either.

ducati
18-Jun-11, 18:21
I think I've said this before; "you try to help people by telling them how stupid they are and they just don't appreciate it"!

ducati
18-Jun-11, 18:24
Education in the UK (as it stands) looks for a degree of proficiency in 2 primary areas. Literacy and numeracy. Literacy means being able to read and write. Reading and writing need to be as accurate and comprehensible as is possible, as does numeracy. Thus, these subjects should be taught to a gold standard, even if only components of literacy and numeracy are embedded in any other subject, whether it be bricklaying, plumbing, architecture, fine art, languages or brain surgery.

As far as numeracy is concerned, I am sure you would not argue that variations in number from agreed arithmetical rules do not get in the way of the right - and only - answer. "2 x 15 = 43": "6+2+4" = 17". Numeracy needs to be as accurate as possible to ensure that number is reliable and consistently credible. In short, it can only work if it is spot on.

My argument is that the same argument should be applied to literacy. The business of spelling, writing, and shaping sentences (they don't have to be complex or erudite!) needs to be accurate, reliable, and credible. Why should we accept, or allow nonsense in the area of literacy when we don't allow it with numeracy?

This does not mean that the student who can't read, write and/or count is an inferior person. It means that such a student has been disadvantaged by any teacher who believes that accuracy is not important. That there are now so many students who have been thus disadvantaged says little for the Educrats who have allowed this reprehensible situation to flourish. The same Educrats who have been responsible for lowering standards since the 60s, and creating an environment where someone going to university at age 19 still may not be able read, write and count properly.

And who, at the end of a degree course, might still end up jobless because employers have seen through the Great Education Confidence Trick.

My anger is that we are handing the next generation damaged goods, and pretending that they are well-equipped.

Other countries have ignored the "trendy" teacher training activities of the UK, with its political agenda which pretends competition doesn't exist, nobody can actually be wrong, or lose from time, and that everyone's a winner - which demeans the extra effort of the brighter learner, and does the less bright learner no favours, either.

Lol you might 'read' northener's signature. Last time I looked, literacy wasn't a pre-requisite to learning to drive.

pmcd
18-Jun-11, 18:35
He had to read the Highway Code. What would he have done if the author had been a bit sloppy over writing down stopping distances, or explaining how to get round a roundabout? What if the learner driver couldn't understand the writing on the page? Last time I looked, theory was an integral part of learning to drive.With literacy and numeracy, there are primary and secondary, as well as active and passive, consequences of illiteracy and innumeracy.

gleeber
18-Jun-11, 18:37
iagreewithnortherneralthough i understandtheconcernsoftheruffled :lol:
Its important for those of us who can to allow for whatever grammerical shortcomings an orger may have when they begin to express themselves on the internet. Lead by example I mean. My grammer was non existant when I first went online and although its got a bit better it's only because ive seen it done properly that I can learn it. I can understand anything and everything posted on the org and theres been some crackers over the years but the result of me accepting people for what they are in the way they express themselves, enriches my own life and helps my grammar too. That's why I agree with northerner.

pmcd
18-Jun-11, 18:54
I heartily agree. Nobody is inferior if they can't be accurate in spelling, or use of English. I love accent, dialect, and the whole business of communication. But I don't approve of people who think that sloppiness is acceptable to teach, and that accuracy is somehow unimportant. In most areas of life we are unhappy to accept damaged or inferior goods. With education, we think it's a question of being a clever dick if you look or sound brighter than your mates.

I do , can, and will "allow" total freedom of expression on the Org. Well, actually, I won't "allow" it because it happens in any case. If I say something which upsets someone else, I expect that person to disagree. On a level platform. I am no better or worse than you are. I bleed, I worry, I will die at some point. also I will laugh, enjoy good company, and take thorns out of lions' paws. And be kind to kittens. And try not to remember a poem which had me in stitches when I was a kid

"Be kind to all the animals
And give the birds a crumb
Be kind to human beings too
They're sometimes pretty dumb"......

northener
18-Jun-11, 18:54
He had to read the Highway Code. What would he have done if the author had been a bit sloppy over writing down stopping distances, or explaining how to get round a roundabout? What if the learner driver couldn't understand the writing on the page? Last time I looked, theory was an integral part of learning to drive.With literacy and numeracy, there are primary and secondary, as well as active and passive, consequences of illiteracy and innumeracy.

The ability to post on a forum using correct grammar at all times has absolutely nothing to do with the skills required whilst learning to drive.

I've had people who are dyslexic and people who have really struggled with the written word. All have passed their theory test with flying colours.

Now, how has that happened then?

northener
18-Jun-11, 18:57
........ But I don't approve of people who think that sloppiness is acceptable to teach.....

I sincerely hope that isn't aimed at me, PMCD.

pmcd
18-Jun-11, 19:00
Because you taught them well, and because you were able to interpret what was on the page. But you had to be able to read and understand the Code so that you could pass on the information. And the author still had to write the words accurately. If you are relying on a tool to give you the correct information then it MUST be accurate. In the case of driving, as you know, it is a matter of some importance - life and death. So why do you seek to undermine the necessity of teaching correct and clearly stated information?

northener
18-Jun-11, 19:11
Because you taught them well, and because you were able to interpret what was on the page. But you had to be able to read and understand the Code so that you could pass on the information. And the author still had to write the words accurately. If you are relying on a tool to give you the correct information then it MUST be accurate. In the case of driving, as you know, it is a matter of some importance - life and death. So why do you seek to undermine the necessity of teaching correct and clearly stated information?

Nowhere have I sought to undermine the necessity of teaching correct and clear information.

As you well know, my criticism is of those who choose to judge others by the standard of their written word on an internet forum, nothing else. I stand by my point that correct grammar is an irrelevance in a forum such as this. It may irritate some, but no-one is going to die as a result of a poster being below some perceived level of acceptable grammar on here. I could accuse you of obfustication* here, PCMD, but I don't wan't Mystical Potato head labelling me as some sort of hypocrite again......oh, the shame....

Actually, I find it quite amusing that on the one side, I am being criticised for not supporting the need for a higher standard of posting....and on the other I am being lambasted* for using ponsey words to show my superiority.[lol]






* Big words used purely to annoy MPH

Ricanna
18-Jun-11, 19:26
Haven't read the thread all the way as looked like a grumpy one--just wanted to know how you turn the spell check on in your browser as I could find out how to. Must be a Dullard or an IT Dullard anyway

secrets in symmetry
18-Jun-11, 19:33
Haven't read the thread all the way as looked like a grumpy one--just wanted to know how you turn the spell check on in your browser as I could find out how to. Must be a Dullard or an IT Dullard anywayWhich browser do you use?

I'm enjoying your posts Northener and pmcd. :)

Ricanna
18-Jun-11, 19:42
Internet Explorer but don't ask me which version--sorry

nightowl
18-Jun-11, 19:52
Why does suggesting the proper use of the English language stir up such adverse feelings in who can only be called the vociferous few. Each time the subject arises, a small band of fairly eloquent posters take on the role of protectors of the literally challenged, defending their right to abandon all rules surrounding written standard English.
The only ones missing in the debate are the actual posters who either choose not to, or refuse not to communicate with us on terms we easily understand.
Surprisingly, I agree with your rights to communicate any way you like. On a forum like this, it is great to see the diversity each individual brings. I'm sure though, when it comes to writing an official letter, the same folks will produce well written understandable prose.
The individuals I worry about are the ones led to believe, by reading the posts of the“vociferous few”, that good English doesn't really matter when so clearly it does. Help is at hand with the various aids easily available and their use should be encouraged rather than rubbished.

northener
18-Jun-11, 20:18
Internet Explorer but don't ask me which version--sorry

Good God!

And you dare to post on here with your obviously sub-standard IT skills?

Begone, loathsome creature!:Razz



(I don't know how to do it either)

northener
18-Jun-11, 20:25
Why does suggesting the proper use of the English language stir up such adverse feelings in who can only be called the vociferous few. Each time the subject arises, a small band of fairly eloquent posters take on the role of protectors of the literally challenged, defending their right to abandon all rules surrounding written standard English.
The only ones missing in the debate are the actual posters who either choose not to, or refuse not to communicate with us on terms we easily understand.
Surprisingly, I agree with your rights to communicate any way you like. On a forum like this, it is great to see the diversity each individual brings. I'm sure though, when it comes to writing an official letter, the same folks will produce well written understandable prose.
The individuals I worry about are the ones led to believe, by reading the posts of the“vociferous few”, that good English doesn't really matter when so clearly it does. Help is at hand with the various aids easily available and their use should be encouraged rather than rubbished.

It could be argued that both sides of the 'divide' are being somewhat patronising towards those who we criticising/defending. As you rightly point out, the worst 'offenders' appear not to be interested in defending their position.

Or maybe they think this is nothing more than a load of boring farts and pedants slugging it out on an obscure thread?......

Ricanna
18-Jun-11, 20:49
I ken--it's shocking

pmcd
18-Jun-11, 20:50
Paternalistic, rather than patronising (I am practically senile!) But I'm not having a pop at your teaching skills, Northerner. and yes, I agree with you that the ability to read Draught Shakespeare ain't going to make you a better driver.

But if you could only teach boy racers to believe that their manhoods will shrivel if they try silly stunts, we'd all be a lot better off.

Or perhaps get the same result by making the theory part of the test up to "A" level standard........?

Wishful thinking. Shut up PMcD.

secrets in symmetry
18-Jun-11, 21:23
Internet Explorer but don't ask me which version--sorryI feared you would say that, because IE is the one popular browser I rarely use.

I used to use ieSpell, but I've just downloaded Speckie, which is much better because it works in real time - just like the Safari one Leanne described in her first post.

You can download Speckie from HERE (http://www.speckie.com/home/). Once you've installed it, try replying to a post and misspell some words deliberately. Speckie will underline the words it thinks you've misspelled. Now right click on an underlined word and choose the correct spelling from the list at the top of the menu that pops up.

Speckie seems to work pretty well. :)

Moira
18-Jun-11, 21:25
Why does suggesting the proper use of the English language stir up such adverse feelings in who can only be called the vociferous few. Each time the subject arises, a small band of fairly eloquent posters take on the role of protectors of the literally challenged, defending their right to abandon all rules surrounding written standard English.
The only ones missing in the debate are the actual posters who either choose not to, or refuse not to communicate with us on terms we easily understand.
Surprisingly, I agree with your rights to communicate any way you like. On a forum like this, it is great to see the diversity each individual brings. I'm sure though, when it comes to writing an official letter, the same folks will produce well written understandable prose.
The individuals I worry about are the ones led to believe, by reading the posts of the“vociferous few”, that good English doesn't really matter when so clearly it does. Help is at hand with the various aids easily available and their use should be encouraged rather than rubbished.

I absolutely agree nightowl. Very well said.

ducati
18-Jun-11, 22:03
Paternalistic, rather than patronising (I am practically senile!) But I'm not having a pop at your teaching skills, Northerner. and yes, I agree with you that the ability to read Draught Shakespeare ain't going to make you a better driver.

But if you could only teach boy racers to believe that their manhoods will shrivel if they try silly stunts, we'd all be a lot better off.

Or perhaps get the same result by making the theory part of the test up to "A" level standard........?

Wishful thinking. Shut up PMcD.

We could just remove the fraise 'watch this' from the language, job done.

northener
19-Jun-11, 09:59
I've had a couple of PM's on this (unusual, for me, anyway).

So, in answer to them and to condense my opinion into a succinct* format:

I have already stated that I find posts that have no attempt at construction in them difficult to read - in fact, generally speaking, I don't bother reading them at all.

BUT, my argument remains that there are those on here who attempt to use their superior (alas, sometimes only perceived) command of the written word to belittle other posters.

And I still maintain that this is a community forum, not a technical publication, not a centre of learning and certainly not a home purely for perfect posts.

On here, the message is more important than it's construction. Period.


*MPH.

golach
19-Jun-11, 11:05
Here Hear Northener.

donnick
19-Jun-11, 11:29
I believe than u can write and post any way you want it called freedome of speech if it upset people then they need to think hard about whats going on in the world ,a miss spelling aint gonna kill some one .i canot believe that some people are getting there nickers in a knot over it ......post as yee see fit ...its the readers choice not to read it ..

pmcd
19-Jun-11, 11:30
Hear, hear, the three of you! It's a given that "the message is more important than its construction". I am in total agreement with that, and I enjoy the cut and thrust of the chat and ideas on the Org.

That does not make the construction unimportant.

Nor is it the case that correct spellers and grammarians set out to be "superior" to those who don't have those skills. In the same way that a plumber doesn't look down on me because I can't plumb. Nor is he deliberately taking the mick out of me by repairing a tap knowing full well I can't do that.

My ability to write and spell would be strictly limited if I was cast away on a desert island. Here a carpenter, a farmer, a soldier, a strong man would be much more useful, given that my strongest contribution might well be spelling out a giant " S O S " with seaweed on the beach....

Writing well is not snobbery, or patronising. It is making best use of a valuable resource.

But, I still agree with you - the message is more important than the delivery.

secrets in symmetry
19-Jun-11, 16:33
On here, the message is more important than it's construction. Period.ha ha wot u like lol it's its not it's lmao

John Little
19-Jun-11, 18:08
Oh Lordie- me
Here's such a fuss!
I'm left a wondering
Who's the Org's Lynne Truss? :eek:

pmcd
19-Jun-11, 18:17
She shoots and leaves
Without much fuss
This lexophobic
Blunder bus.......

Kells
19-Jun-11, 18:46
I have enjoyed reading this thread, a min of personal attacks and a lot of good humour as well as good points raised giving only you own views.

ducati
19-Jun-11, 19:06
Does anyone think nightowl's avatar (when the moon is gone) looks like Batman? :eek:

secrets in symmetry
19-Jun-11, 19:46
Here's northener's most recent post with no punctuation, capitalisation or paragraphs:


ive had a couple of pms on this unusual for me anyway so in answer to them and to condense my opinion into a succinct* format i have already stated that i find posts that have no attempt at construction in them difficult to read in fact generally speaking i dont bother reading them at all but my argument remains that there are those on here who attempt to use their superior alas sometimes only perceived command of the written word to belittle other posters and i still maintain that this is a community forum not a technical publication not a centre of learning and certainly not a home purely for perfect posts on here the message is more important than its construction period *MPH
I find it almost unreadable.

Corrie 3
19-Jun-11, 21:21
Although it wasn't very nice at the time I feel as though I owe a lot to the Teachers that beat me every time I spelt a word incorrectly! We had to have a dictionary with us at all times and if we didn't use it and got words wrong it was one lash for every word. It soon taught you that if you wasn't sure of a spelling to look it up in the dictionary.
One good thing to come out of it all is that I never have to use a spellchecker, not that I would know how to anyway!!
One Teachers words still ring in my ears to this day......."It's just as easy to get things right as it is to get them wrong".
I could be wrong but I believe the introduction of the mobile phone and texting is accountable for the demise of the written word!
How long will it be before someone tells me how many lashes I would have got for this post ?......:eek:

C3.......;)

gleeber
19-Jun-11, 21:50
Here's northener's most recent post with no punctuation, capitalisation or paragraphs:


I find it almost unreadable.
It's easy to read once you get the gist of the flowing thought stream northerners generating as he defends his position. It's good to have to work to understand. :lol:

northener
19-Jun-11, 21:57
Here's northener's most recent post with no punctuation, capitalisation or paragraphs:


I find it almost unreadable.


And, oddly, I don't have a problem with it.:Razz

(And capital 'N' for Northener, if you don't mind;))

Phill
19-Jun-11, 23:20
So what's the upshot of this inglish lesson?

Buy a Mac?
I use Safari which does a spellchecker thingymebob and apparently I live in lobster, no lobster, I mean lobster. No not lobster, lobster.
I give up.

And it's Maths!




Do not put statements in the negative form.
And don't start sentences with a conjunction.
If you reread your work, you will find on rereading that a
great deal of repetition can be avoided by rereading and editing.
Never use a long word when a diminutive one will do.
Unqualified superlatives are the worst of all.
De-accession euphemisms.
If any word is improper at the end of a sentence, a linking verb is.
Avoid trendy locutions that sound flaky.
Last, but not least, avoid cliches like the plague.

Apparently. Oh and for those who wish to use erudite prose there is erudite prose (http://www.erudite-prose.com/).

Just in case me postin' weren't upto scratch: ..,,, ;,",.,! .,. ,.',.,".. .., .., ?..'().! Sort it out yersel wiv them.

Walter Ego
20-Jun-11, 10:57
Anyone who writes incoherently should be dragged out and shot. Especially the LOL U NO WAT text numpties.

Shabbychic
20-Jun-11, 13:20
Anyone who writes incoherently should be dragged out and shot. Especially the LOL U NO WAT text numpties.

Now you come to mention it, there is a shooting thread on here.

Anfield
20-Jun-11, 14:27
Now you come to mention it, there is a shooting thread on here.

Have you seen the standard of spelling from OP on "Shooting" (http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?147887-shooting)thread?

secrets in symmetry
20-Jun-11, 20:50
Have you seen the standard of spelling from OP on "Shooting" (http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?147887-shooting)thread?Lol! I know I complained about lack of punctuation yesterday, but I've never seen so many extraneous commas in one post!

George Brims
20-Jun-11, 23:39
Good God!

And you dare to post on here with your obviously sub-standard IT skills?

Begone, loathsome creature!:Razz



(I don't know how to do it either)

I'll help the pair of you. Pretty much any program has a "Help" menu, usually the last one on the right. If you click on that there's usually an item that says "About *Program*". If you click on that most times you will get a version number. I can't check that for IE to help you out as I don't have it installed. I use Firefox.

trix
22-Jun-11, 14:01
guid thried...i do agree that proper grammer is important.

i can forgive a spellin mistake but i da lek when a paragraph is missing punctuation and full stops. it's difficult til read an' boring, an' i think it says alot aboot a person.

_Ju_
23-Jun-11, 16:12
I just came across a saying which expresses exactly why I think an attempt at spelling, grammar and punctuation is important:
"Good writing is clear thinking made visible"

Walter Ego
23-Jun-11, 16:53
I just came across a saying which expresses exactly why I think an attempt at spelling, grammar and punctuation is important:

Shouldn't there be a comma in that quote between "thinking" and "made"?.......

Leanne
23-Jun-11, 18:15
Shouldn't there be a comma in that quote between "thinking" and "made"?.......

No. Think of a comma as separating independent parts of a sentence. If you remove the word pre-comma then it doesn't alter the meaning of the sentence.

Eg The colours of the rainbow include yellow, pink and blue.
The colours of the rainbow include pink and blue.

_Ju_'s quote would read "Good writing is clear made visible" or "Good writing is made visible" - it doesn't make sense...

Walter Ego
23-Jun-11, 19:39
No. Think of a comma as separating independent parts of a sentence. If you remove the word pre-comma then it doesn't alter the meaning of the sentence.

Eg The colours of the rainbow include yellow, pink and blue.
The colours of the rainbow include pink and blue.

_Ju_'s quote would read "Good writing is clear made visible" or "Good writing is made visible" - it doesn't make sense...


"Good writing is clear thinking, made visible"

Sounds OK to me?

Leanne
30-Jun-11, 19:05
Found these and though it was topical.

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/200705_10150475980600377_212641675376_17824889_511 9072_n.jpg

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/224181_10150590974285377_212641675376_18244627_648 7362_n.jpg

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/252960_10150663238035377_212641675376_18949680_273 7340_n.jpg

Leanne
30-Jun-11, 19:06
For anyone who wants to see the ones that I have censored for here, check out i'mnotrightinthehead.com on Facebook

secrets in symmetry
01-Jul-11, 00:01
"Good writing is clear thinking, made visible"

Sounds OK to me?The comma isn't associative and yours destroys the intended meaning, which is:

"Good writing is clear thinking made visible."

The Germans could conceivably have a single word for the ones in quotes.

Phill
14-Jul-11, 08:04
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-14130854

Aperntuly you ilterate lot are costink the ekonomee millions.