View Full Version : All nursery teachers to go in Highland
Can you believe Highland Council? First they tried to get rid of the classroom assistants, now after the summer holidays they are getting rid of all nursery teachers in Highland (about 40) Dont they care about our childrens education at all?
The SNP said that every 3 and 4 year old had the right to be taught by a qualified teacher. Obviously that doesn't include our children in Highland.
annemarie482
02-Jun-11, 22:25
do you have a link as to where you got this information for the rest of us to read?
or is it from the caithness grapevine ......
I thought there had to be at least one member of staff in a nursery with nursery teaching qualifications?
The pay rates are dismal even for qualified staff....
with them doing setting up, planning etc in their own time (unpaid) as it is.
Surely they cannot cut the nurseries as they are run on a shoestring at the moment as it is.
We were told by our Head Teacher at the school PTA
sinclairbay
02-Jun-11, 22:53
Yes it's true that nursery teachers posts are being cut.
They will be "replaced" by nursery principal teachers who will be spread even further than they are already. I know some nursery teachers are bitterly disappointed. They will end up with very little interaction with the children they're there to support and end up taking a purely managerial role in helping our children develop.
Very short sighted by Highland Council in my opinion. Perhaps Bill Fernie would care to comment on what educational benefit this will have on our pupils at such an important age?
Bill Fernie
02-Jun-11, 23:58
This is one of many proposals put forward in the budget proposals passed in February by the council.
The proposal can be found at
http://www.highland.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/AD6BBBAD-A526-4629-BF24-92D4E37F60C4/0/Item3BookletB.pdf
Look under JCCYP14
This is part of the need by Highland council to find savings of £59million over 3 years.
The description in the report is as follows -
Description of Savings Measure
There are 41.5 FTE Nursery Co-ordinator Teachers supporting nurseries. An extensive review is proposed, to change this input in a way which will continue to satisfy statutory obligations, improve equity and take account of the implementation of Curriculum for Excellence, and completion of the change to a qualified and regulated nursery workforce. Instead of a large number of staff undertaking a range of direct and indirect teaching input, a smaller team will deliver a primarily developmental and supporting role, and a career structure will be established.
This smaller number of teachers would require to be paid at the higher grade of principal teacher, reflecting their primary role as advisors rather than deliverers of the education input to nursery children.
The redution in posts is 15.5 FTE.
can it be put in plain english please.
As in what impact it will have on our children rather than the format it is in that doesnt mean any sense to me!
So if Highland Council has to save so much Bill, where is The Brave New World being broached by Alec Salmond?
Beats me too as to the thinking about closing so many primary schools when there has been a move to get folk into The Highlands, just who is going to come here when there are no facilities?
Surely if you want to re-populate the area then there must be amenities for those that already live here and encouragement for them to be sure in the knowledge that their children will recieve a place at nursery, let alone those that you are hoping to attract.
I have long been stunned by the lack of amenities here in the far north and whilst appreciating that a low population can mean less funding, if the county is to remain a viable entity then there must finances and the will to promote the area.
George Brims
03-Jun-11, 06:35
Oh Brave New World... Here in California there will be no (not one!) school librarians in State funded schools after the summer.
John Little
03-Jun-11, 09:13
In all justice it is hardly likely to be the Highland Council's fault. They have to make economies on directions from central government who set their budget.
What this is about is spending priorities and the fact is that the government prefers to spend the money on other things. There is a finite amount of cash available and things like free prescriptions and no tuition fees hoover it up like there's no tomorrow.
This is one of many proposals put forward in the budget proposals passed in February by the council.
The proposal can be found at
http://www.highland.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/AD6BBBAD-A526-4629-BF24-92D4E37F60C4/0/Item3BookletB.pdf
Look under JCCYP14
This is part of the need by Highland council to find savings of £59million over 3 years.
The description in the report is as follows -
Description of Savings Measure
There are 41.5 FTE Nursery Co-ordinator Teachers supporting nurseries. An extensive review is proposed, to change this input in a way which will continue to satisfy statutory obligations, improve equity and take account of the implementation of Curriculum for Excellence, and completion of the change to a qualified and regulated nursery workforce. Instead of a large number of staff undertaking a range of direct and indirect teaching input, a smaller team will deliver a primarily developmental and supporting role, and a career structure will be established.
This smaller number of teachers would require to be paid at the higher grade of principal teacher, reflecting their primary role as advisors rather than deliverers of the education input to nursery children.
The redution in posts is 15.5 FTE.
Ask Councillor Graeme Smith and the rest of the CHaP board to cough up the £14 million plus they wasted on the project .Now the figure is down to £45million ..
Do the Highland council provide a breakdown of their operating expenses anywhere? can't seem to find one. I'm looking for information like how much they spend on stationary, IT, consultants, office space etc. not how much each member gets in remuneration.
can it be put in plain english please.
As in what impact it will have on our children rather than the format it is in that doesnt mean any sense to me!
Okay let's have a go at this as an IT guy I'm quite good at reading business/marketing/advertising BS:
EDIT: From page 43 of that PDF.
Savings Measure Name:
Rationalisation of early education including changing role and function of Nursery Co-ordinator Teachers Translation: Make nursery teachers more efficient.
Description of Savings Measure:
There are 41.5 FTE Nursery Co-ordinator Teachers supporting nurseries. An extensive review is proposed, to change this input in a way which will continue to satisfy statutory obligations, improve equity and take account of the implementation of Curriculum for Excellence, and completion of the change to a qualified and regulated nursery workforce. Instead of a large number of staff undertaking a range of direct and indirect teaching input, a smaller team will deliver a primarily developmental and supporting role, and a career structure will be established.
This smaller number of teachers would require to be paid at the higher grade of principal teacher, reflecting their primary role as advisors rather than deliverers of the education input to nursery children.Translation: We're going to replace 41.5 nursery teachers with 26 high paid consultants, they won't teach or deal with children any more but will tell other people how to do it. We'll also establish a bureaucracy and support system around this. Right now it all costs £1.7 million we think this will save about £266,000 in the first year, £134,000 in the second year and have no impact or for some strange reason improve teaching because of our consultation rubber stamping process. We plan to do this immediately in August 2011.
Shabbychic
03-Jun-11, 11:50
I came across this article (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/council-spending/8542909/Councils-spend-100m-on-taxpayer-funded-credit-cards.html) the other day, about councils using taxpayer-funded credit cards. It would be interesting to know if Highland Council are also wasting money like this.
Just found the table of Highland Council (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/council-spending/8542115/Highland-Council-credit-card-spending.html) spending, over £500.
sinclairbay
03-Jun-11, 12:04
completion of the change to a qualified and regulated nursery workforce. Instead of a large number of staff undertaking a range of direct and indirect teaching input, a smaller team will deliver a primarily developmental and supporting role, and a career structure will be established.
This smaller number of teachers would require to be paid at the higher grade of principal teacher, reflecting their primary role as advisors rather than deliverers of the education input to nursery children.
The redution in posts is 15.5 FTE.
I'm sorry Bill but in what way will this result in a completion of the change to a qualified nursery workforce? Surley the nursery teacher is the one person who is the most qualified already.
Can you also clarify how this will help achieve a career structure? I though already that HC had early years advisors already, will these PTs be replacing them? I honestly can't see these budget cuts affecting those who work in Glenurquhart Road.
Has Highland Council decided how many nurseries these PTs will be spread over?
Can I encourage any parents who feel that their child will be affected by this change to notify their respective parent councils and politicians? I don't suppose there's much point in contacting your councillor, they'll just tow the usual party line!
Sadly it's just another example of politicians saying one thing to get your vote and then later doing just what they like.
peter macdonald
03-Jun-11, 16:54
Maybe the councils in Scotland should take a look at how they spend the money from Central Govt
Do we really need all these guys on these wages??
Home / Your Council / Access to Information / Freedom of Information
Senior Management Salaries
Senior Management 2009/10 2010/11
Post Salary
Chief Executive £140,112.00 £140,112.00
Depute Chief Executive and Director of Finance £115,995.00 £115,995.00
Assistant Chief Executive £105,450.00 £105,450.00
Director of Education, Culture and Sport £105,450.00 £105,450.00
Director of Housing and Property £105,450.00 £105,450.00
Director of Planning and Development £105,450.00 £105,450.00
Director of Social Work £105,450.00 £105,450.00
Director of Transport, Environmental and Community £105,450.00 £105,450.00
Check out Mr Cameron or Mr Salmonds wages to get an idea of perspective
Also in the case of Education Director I think in Scotland we have 26 of these ....for a country of 5million ?? Crazy!!!!!!
Most of the these wages were negotiated around 2004 if my failing memory serves me
under the cosy relationship between COSLA the councils and the last lab/Lib government
Oh yes ..not seen Councillor Smiths pic in the Groat for a while
PM
That's why I was looking for an operating expenses breakdown, every other council that releases one is shown to be spending too much on things like stationary, IT, offices, catering etc.
Even ignoring overpaid executives for a moment (I do agree with you on that though, especially since it's public money) those other costs can dwarf them.
Maybe the councils in Scotland should take a look at how they spend the money from Central Govt
Do we really need all these guys on these wages??
Home / Your Council / Access to Information / Freedom of Information
Senior Management Salaries
Senior Management 2009/10 2010/11
Post Salary
Chief Executive £140,112.00 £140,112.00
Depute Chief Executive and Director of Finance £115,995.00 £115,995.00
Assistant Chief Executive £105,450.00 £105,450.00
Director of Education, Culture and Sport £105,450.00 £105,450.00
Director of Housing and Property £105,450.00 £105,450.00
Director of Planning and Development £105,450.00 £105,450.00
Director of Social Work £105,450.00 £105,450.00
Director of Transport, Environmental and Community £105,450.00 £105,450.00
Check out Mr Cameron or Mr Salmonds wages to get an idea of perspective
Also in the case of Education Director I think in Scotland we have 26 of these ....for a country of 5million ?? Crazy!!!!!!
Most of the these wages were negotiated around 2004 if my failing memory serves me
under the cosy relationship between COSLA the councils and the last lab/Lib government
Oh yes ..not seen Councillor Smiths pic in the Groat for a while
PM
Are there not 32 local authorities? That makes one of each of these - or similar posts - for each of the 32 councils.
oldmarine
03-Jun-11, 21:54
Throughout the USA and UK budget problems is raising its ugly head. That mens raising taxes or reducing services. Quite a dilemma for everyone.
...........like stationary...........
Did you mean stationary as in "stood still" or stationery.......?
Oh Brave New World... Here in California there will be no (not one!) school librarians in State funded schools after the summer.
Highland are just about to accomplish that here - been done very quietly - no fuss - but no dedicated school librarian after the summer holidays!! Are Highland parents aware of this????
This cost saving proposal is a disaster in the way it is being done, in what is being done and in the timescale in which it's being forced through
As far as I can find out the Council have done nothing to assess the educational effects of the change.
There is a good report by HMIE about nursery schools - see http://www.hmie.gov.uk/documents/publication/Key%20Role%20of%20staff.pdf
This report says that it is face to face contact between children and a qualified teacher that is critical. Not just for problem children but for smart ones as well so that they are developed and stretched. Here's a couple of quotes
"Evidence for meeting pre-school children’s needs showed a measurable difference in the percentage of very good evaluations
of centres with teachers, compared to those without a teacher. Around twice as many local authority nursery schools and family
centres (51%) with teacher involvement were evaluated as very good contrasted against those with no teacher input (28%)."
and
"Teachers had a significant impact in supporting the development and learning of all children and, in particular, those who had
additional support needs. They had an important role in delivering an appropriate experience for children who had complex learning
needs and in ensuring that additional support plans were being developed where appropriate"
It's worse than that, however. The Nursery Coordinator Teachers who don't want to go for/don't get one of the new 'management' posts
will have to be re-deployed into primary teaching - where? How will that save money? They can't replace probationer teachers who are
already being taken on.
And, even worse, the new 'Principal Teachers' are not going to be under education - they're going into a new 'empire' being built by someone
called Jon King - Head of Integrated Children's Services which is part of the Social Services. I don't know where he came from, but I don't think
he's a teacher.
All this is going to be made possible by having highly educated nursery staff, but Highland Council aren't performing very well in getting their nursery staff
more highly trained. It hasn't happened and its not going to happen by August. Very poorly paid nursery staff are going to have to take over the roles of a qualified teacher - including reporting, planning and liaison with other agencies - without any new training, without any new resources and without even being told about it!!!
A cost saving exercise that's been poorly thought out, poorly planned, poorly implemented and will damage not only the most at risk children, but also the good ones. Parents with children in or going to nurseries should be up in arms.
sinclairbay
06-Jun-11, 22:18
Very well said ColMac.
The question is - how do we get these points to The Powers That Be ™ in Highland Council?
Oh don't act daft Sinclairbay. If you found your way on here you could probably answer your own question by using your friend Google. :)
It's easy enough for one person to contact Hugh Fraser, Bill Fernie and the "Officials". I think Sinclairbay'spoint is how do we do this in order to have the most impact.
It's easy enough for one person to contact Hugh Fraser, Bill Fernie and the "Officials". I think Sinclairbay'spoint is how do we do this in order to have the most impact.
Agreed.
I look forward to your proposals, wick.
Nothing, absolutely nothing, is more important than a good education starting at nursery level. It can compensate to an extent, not completely, for poor parenting and it is the foundation of every person's life. Without education nothing else works for the future - there would be no doctors, scientists, teachers, anything that keeps civilisation going. I never understood why the last Govt. put so much emphasis on keeping teenagers in education and so little on getting the primary stage right. Children taught well at the start will want to stay in education, they will have ambition to achieve something in their lives rather than be content with lounging on street corners bored with nothing to do except "get wasted" or maybe longing to be celebritieees.
The Council needs to get its priorities sorted.
Interesting that they have the money to put wind turbines in the playgrounds of so many primary schools, even some listed as possible future closures. Personally I would rather keep the teachers and make sensible economies in power usage. If the turbines were going to generate enough income in future to justify their capital cost they wouldn't need to dispense with teachers.
travelling man
08-Jun-11, 20:57
I see in the Courier today that there is a £7 million underspend in the local authority budget. Two of our councillors have suggested that some of it could fund classroom assistants, which would be a good use for it. Perhaps if parents get on to their councillors some of it could also be used to keep teachers in our nurseries.
Well Said Badger I Agree a good education starting at nursery is important
Well, I took account of what was said above about doing things and contacted the P & J. They've put something in today and maybe if we can get some letters in, there could be some pressure exerted - although I wouldn't bet my last ten shillings on any effect.
what i dont understand is why they dont start with the prison systems first before the education system?
seriously, why do criminals receive more benefit than children?
Its great that the classroom assistants seem to have had their jobs saved (mainly due to public pressure) I dont think its looking so good for the Nursery teachers as Highland want them out after the summer holidays. I dont know if any one else out there tried to contact their councillors/MSP over the loss of the teachers, but I know of one nursery teacher who emailed the local and regional councillors including Bill Fernie (chairman of education) only one (Deirdre Mackay) bothered to reply and our newly elected SNP MSP only acknowledged receiving the email.
Seems like its all done and dusted and as several people have already commented our childrens education doesn't seem to matter any more, surely we should be supporting our youngest children when they are just starting out their education !!
I was reading some comments that the Nursery Teaching system is used as a baby sitting service......
It has become so bad in some areas that prescriptions have been delivered to the Schools...
Care to comment>>>>>>
sandyr1 care to elaborate?
That seems to be an inflammatory comment.
As for prescriptions delivered to the nurseries it would not be possible here.
And as a babysitting service, that may be true, to a certain extent as the kids are there for 2 and a half hours a day, but if anything happens the parents/guardian/emergency comtact person is called in!
I cannot wait until after the summer when my wee girl can go to nursery, not because I want rid of her for a wee while, but because she is so ready to go and kicks up such a fuss when she has to go home when I drop her sister off.
I do most of the things that happen at nursery at home with the kids but its the learning to play and share with other children thats important.
Wow Inflamatory......Gosh what next!
Perhaps the prescriptions were for anti-inflamatories?
Alice in Blunderland
14-Jun-11, 07:19
I would be questioning where is the evidence that the removal of nursery teachers will not have a negative impact on the children before such drastic steps are being taken. This I would have thought should have been one of the first questions asked by the Councillor's voting for these proposals. Are these proposals dreamt up by an administration focused mainly on financial gain rather than educational ? Do our Councilors representing us take on board everything set in front of them and simply nod or do they take time to research the proposals they are voting for ?
I have been able to find MANY papers on the benefits of nursery teachers being part of the daily routine in nurserys however I am struggling to find such positive words in favour of their removal. What will be the true cost of all these cost cutting measures in the years to come ?
Should anyone who is interested wish to look it up
http://eppe.ioe.ac.uk/eppe/eppepdfs/TP10%20Research%20Brief.pdf
a large study done into nursery provision which states
Having trained teachers working with children in pre-school settings (for a substantial proportion of time, and most importantly as the curriculum leader) had the greatest impact on quality, and was linked specifically with better outcomes in pre-reading and social development at age 5
Less qualified staff were significantly better at supporting learning when they worked with qualified teachers.RECOMMENDATION: Aim at a good proportion of trained teachers on the staff.
The main issue that some council officials will have with any of these reports into good nursery provision ( which don't seem to be underpinning any recommendations ) is that when recommending qualified nursery teachers are best placed in the class to help provide a first class education means they will have to pay what they are worth to get them in there which will cost one heck of a lot more than assistants.!
Why bother then in primary school having teachers ? why not remove them ,have a mass recruitment of classroom assistants supervised collectively by teachers ..................................... oh or is this already potentially on the cards ?
I have been told that nursery teachers are meeting with Jon King (Head of Integrated Services) today to go over what this "restructuring" will involve.
Can we request to see the minutes of this meeting? If not, can we use FOI to get it?
I notice that Councillor Fernie is very quiet on this post - is it because when you get down to it that these cuts are indefensible on anything other than cost-cutting terms?
. . . meeting with Jonathan King - no chance, he's hiding. The meetings will only be to say what is happening, not discussing anything - just about timetables for action. Anyone know anything about this man who seems to be taking Highland Edication back to the dark ages?
Highland Council seem to have some of the characteristics of a fascist organisation - wielding power without responsibility - although the growth of the Integrated Children's Services outfit is more like the communist bloc - a 77% increase in budget in 2 years (2008/2009 £23.298M to 2010/11 £ 40.969M)!
On the 7th June, Mike Russell said that where a local authority was proposing to close a school it should be purely for educational benefit. I think, this principle of no change for cost saving reasons alone should apply, as far as possible, across the board in education. It should be the starting point and any change from it should require strong evidence of other need.
On the 13th July Mike Russell said that
Action to improve the early years of children's lives is a key priority for the Scottish Government because evidence shows that every pound invested during the formative years of a child's life, saves the taxpayer up to £7 later on
and there was this exchange on the 27th October last year in the Scottish Government Debate on Education, Lifelong Learning and Culture Committee Official Report
Kenneth Gibson: The number of nursery teachers has increased from about 2,100 to almost 3,000. Is that correct?
Michael Russell: Yes—fully qualified nursery teachers. We have tried to increase the contact between fully qualified nursery teachers and nursery pupils. That remains our aim and ambition
Anyone who's interested about other views about this issue should visit the Association of Head Teachers and Deputies web site at http://www.ahds.org.uk/policy/247.html
Here's some quotes from them
There is a significant, positive, long-lasting effect of attending high quality pre-primary school provision.
Children who have been involved in high quality pre-school provision demonstrate better cognitive and behavioural outcomes than those who experienced lower quality settings – these effects are long-lasting.
A high quality setting is defined as one which has a high proportion of teachers on its staff and is preferably led by a specialist teacher.
And
It can be said without doubt that qualified teachers in nurseries make for the best possible outcomes for pupils. If Scotland wants to close the gap between its lowest and highest performing students and to improve its standing in international comparisons then it cannot afford to ignore this evidence.
If the Head Teachers are so against it - who did Highland Council consult on the educational impact?
I don't get it. Everybody with any knowledge at all about education agrees strongly that face to face contact between nursery children and specialist nursery teachers is a huge benefit. Only Highland Council seems to think otherwise. In Aberdeenshire they have one teacher for every nursery!! In the Highlands we will not have 3 to 18 education anymore. We will be the only part of Scotland that is 5 to 18 - there will be no teaching input to nurseries.
Do the councillors always just follow the 'party line' in a obsequious, mealy mouthed way - do they never try to think for themselves. What are they doing? Would just one councillor have the guts to ask for any evidence on who was consulted and who advised on educational impact.
Do you get the impression that my blood is boiling? :)
Very good post colmacF. Tbh I was a bit on the fence about all this but after reading the overwhelming evidence which all points to keeping Nursery teachers in the class I have to wonder what on earth is going on up here! As a previous poster says, why has Mr Fernie gone so quiet? Where is the arguement for getting rid of these hard working teachers?
I would hate to see cuts in the services we recieve at the moment for nursery workers...they only get paid for 15 mins before the kids get in so to speak in our nursery, yet the hall and nursery room and any paperwork that has to be done beforehand has to be done in that time!...everything has to be stored away between sessions as its a community hall yet dedicated nursery halls get the same amount of time to set up etc...and they dont have to go through the same rigamarole...
travelling man
28-Jun-11, 22:11
Highland council have decided that 1 teacher will be responsible for 11 Nurseries and Playgroups covering Thurso, Halkirk, Reay, Castletown and Crossroads. They have the cheek to tell us that this is going to improve our children's education. Do they think we're stupid? This is nothing but a quick way to save some money by disadvantaging our youngest, most vulnerable children. 1 person can't possibly do anything worthwhile with all those places to cover. They won't know the children in each nursery or the staff because they're going to spend most of their time travelling to all these places and no doubt doing mounds of paperwork! I believe it's a similar situation on the Wick side.
I think we should all get in touch with the local councillors and our MSP/MP to see how they justify this and even if it does no good at least we'll know we tried! We owe it to our children.
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