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The poor pope has put his foot in it. He is accussing Muslims of using unfair tactics to assist convertions to Islam in the 15th century lol.
Muslim leaders are angry and when they get angry its no long before the rest get mad.
Should he apoligise?
He should apologise about as much as the muslim leaders and various breeds of politician. They all play equal parts in stirring up the hatred. Politics and religion arse(sic) again working side by side to engineer a war of fine proportions. Keep the nation scared and keep them spending. Jail the politicians and close the churches. Worship at the holy shrine of the Sunday afternoon pint.:roll:
pultneytooner
15-Sep-06, 23:00
The poor pope has put his foot in it. He is accussing Muslims of using unfair tactics to assist convertions to Islam in the 15th century lol.
Muslim leaders are angry and when they get angry its no long before the rest get mad.
Should he apoligise?
What unfair tactic was that, a free ticket to paradise and 70 virgins at your beck and call?[lol]
The Pepsi Challenge
16-Sep-06, 02:26
So, the Pope quoted a 14 century Emperor and was then criticised as though the sentiments of the 14th Century Emperor were his. This seems a trifle unfair. If anyone cares to read the relevant part of the speech, nothing inflammatory is being said. It is an introductory remark in a discussion on faith, reason and philosophy. Now any empiricists out there on the other hand...
Anyway, is it a shock to see Muslims getting upset? Shame they never seem to get visibly angry about terrorism, the oppression of women, anti-semitism, homophobia or the fact that most Muslim countries are theocracies and/or dictatorships.
He should apologise about as much as the muslim leaders and various breeds of politician. They all play equal parts in stirring up the hatred. Politics and religion arse(sic) again working side by side to engineer a war of fine proportions. Keep the nation scared and keep them spending. Jail the politicians and close the churches. Worship at the holy shrine of the Sunday afternoon pint.:roll:
As one of those religious .... (sic) people out there, I take your comments most personally. No one laments nor speaks more passionately against the unholy, unbridled and careless spending of the 21st century than faithful religious leaders whether they be Christian or Muslim.
(I took out the original word because roblovesplastic cautioned me that it might not go through the admin review.)
Are these the same people who declare Jihad in order to pretend that there is some sort of morality in random acts of mass murder? Are these the same people who issue Fatwahs to give others the "right" to murder somebody for writing a book they do not like? Are these the people who deem me to be an Infidel?
I understand that many Muslims, presumably, I am willing to concede, the more fanatical ones, who look upon the Crusades as if they were recent history.
We have spent that long running round trying to find things, real or imagined, that we should be ashamed of that is it any wonder that others have decided that they can demand apologies for any supposed "insult" they care to dream up?
The screams of woe and anguish emanating from politically motivated people trying to ingratiate themselves to their populations should be treated with the contempt it deserves.
I understand that the Pope was describing how things were six centuries ago, not what the were yesterday, or even fifty years ago. If discussing historical facts are to be stopped because somebody somewhere might get upset then are we to cease teaching history completely because almost every part of history has the possibility of upsetting somebody.
j4bberw0ck
16-Sep-06, 08:06
Anyway, is it a shock to see Muslims getting upset? Shame they never seem to get visibly angry about terrorism, the oppression of women, anti-semitism, homophobia or the fact that most Muslim countries are theocracies and/or dictatorships.
I suspect most Muslim countries are dictatorships and theocracies in part because Muslims scream and complain about things. Can you imagine trying to run a democracy of any sort in that environment? It'd be like Italy... 60 changes of government since WW2. :lol:
More seriously, Muslims are using democratic process (or at least, the weakness of politicians) against us when they shout and complain. They make a huge fuss. Politician is reminded that Muslims have votes too. Politician acts to keep Muslims happy. IMHO, it's only a matter of time before there are major concessions on Muslim State schools, foreign policy reviews and so on.
Still an'all, that's what democracy's for :lol:
So, the Pope quoted a 14 century Emperor and was then criticised as though the sentiments of the 14th Century Emperor were his. This seems a trifle unfair. If anyone cares to read the relevant part of the speech, nothing inflammatory is being said. It is an introductory remark in a discussion on faith, reason and philosophy. Now any empiricists out there on the other hand...
Anyway, is it a shock to see Muslims getting upset? Shame they never seem to get visibly angry about terrorism, the oppression of women, anti-semitism, homophobia or the fact that most Muslim countries are theocracies and/or dictatorships.
I read the relevant part of the speach. I cannot fathom how a QUOTE from the 14th century can raise such a commotion. Yet they feel they have the right to label our religious leader as infidels whenever they please. those muslems should get over themselves!
rockchick
16-Sep-06, 10:08
<snip>Anyway, is it a shock to see Muslims getting upset? Shame they never seem to get visibly angry about terrorism, the oppression of women, anti-semitism, homophobia <snip>
Funnily enough, the Catholic Church is guilty of actively engaging in all of the above activities. Who should be getting upset here?
Anyway, is it a shock to see Muslims getting upset? Shame they never seem to get visibly angry about terrorism, the oppression of women, anti-semitism, homophobia or the fact that most Muslim countries are theocracies and/or dictatorships.
You're grouping an entire religion into one view. Of course some Muslims are going to support acts of terrorism, the same as some Christians support the terrorising of abortion clinics. The vast majority don't, but there is a small minority that do.
Dreadnought
16-Sep-06, 12:12
The poor pope has put his foot in it. He is accussing Muslims of using unfair tactics to assist convertions to Islam in the 15th century lol.
If it wasn't so sad it would be funny. The leader of one of the most oppressive religious factions in the world, Catholicism, accusing another faction of unfair tactics! I wonder what the indiginous peoples of South America think of that? (Those whose ancestors weren't slaughtered in the name of the Holy Roman Church). And then here in Europe there was The Inquisition... very jolly that was... convert to Catholicism or be broken on the wheel, boiled alive etc. etc.
:roll:
For goodness sake. the past is the past is the past! Let's bury it and move on! Continual harping on about the long ago atrocities only keeps resentment alive.
the poor pope only quoted something - he was not giving an opinion.
Dreadnought
16-Sep-06, 12:39
Ok. Lets be current. Africa is being ravaged by HIV and AIDS on an almost unimaginable scale. Guess who is actively discouraging the distribution and use of condoms in Africa?
'Poor old Pope'; (Wrong definition I know but..) 'poor'!? have any of you been to the Pope's house, i.e. the Vatican?, I'm not a believer, but it made me sick, wandering around the place; gold, silver, masterpieces and priceless artefacts all over - made me wonder what the connection of all this was with that bloke wandering the desert in a robe and sandals 2000 years ago..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5351988.stm
So, the Pope quoted a 14 century Emperor and was then criticised as though the sentiments of the 14th Century Emperor were his. This seems a trifle unfair. If anyone cares to read the relevant part of the speech, nothing inflammatory is being said. It is an introductory remark in a discussion on faith, reason and philosophy. Now any empiricists out there on the other hand...
Anyway, is it a shock to see Muslims getting upset? Shame they never seem to get visibly angry about terrorism, the oppression of women, anti-semitism, homophobia or the fact that most Muslim countries are theocracies and/or dictatorships.
Aye poor guy, first getting found out he was a former (sic) fascist and member of the Hitler youth and now this.
Interested in your use of the term anti-semitism in there Pepsi.......strange when Arabs are in fact semetic........and many of the zionists who now live in Israel are caucasian.
Ok. Lets be current. Africa is being ravaged by HIV and AIDS on an almost unimaginable scale. Guess who is actively discouraging the distribution and use of condoms in Africa?
I apologize in advance to anyone who finds this "more than they wanted to know."
The problem of condom use in Africa in conjunction with the HIV/AIDS situation is not an encyclical of the Roman Catholic Church on the issue of birth control. The problem is the wide spread myth that using a condom will cause the affected body part to drop off. I know that I need some kind of smilie to indicate when I am being deadly serious, because most of the time I am not. But, on this occasion, dear readers, I am, serious.
j4bberw0ck
16-Sep-06, 17:46
I fear that's just a part of the truth (sorry, canuck, not trying to accuse you of speading half-truths).
The real underlying causes of HIV spreading in Africa are two, if information I've seen in a TV documentary on the subject is to be believed:
1. the method of contraception used in the absence of a condom; and
2. a combination of prostitution which can be directly linked back to poverty, and promiscuity, which is a cultural issue in many parts of Africa.
, and promiscuity, which is a cultural issue in many parts of Africa.
Only in parts of Africa?
<snip>, and promiscuity, which is a cultural issue in many parts of Africa.
....and the rest of the world.....[disgust]
Dreadnought
16-Sep-06, 17:59
I apologize in advance to anyone who finds this "more than they wanted to know."
The problem of condom use in Africa in conjunction with the HIV/AIDS situation is not an encyclical of the Roman Catholic Church on the issue of birth control. The problem is the wide spread myth that using a condom will cause the affected body part to drop off. I know that I need some kind of smilie to indicate when I am being deadly serious, because most of the time I am not. But, on this occasion, dear readers, I am, serious.
That may be true, it doesn't change the fact that the Catholic Church is actively discouraging condom use throughout Africa (http://www.guardian.co.uk/aids/story/0,7369,1059068,00.html).
pultneytooner
16-Sep-06, 18:13
Only in parts of Africa?
And rape which happens in many parts of africa.
rockchick
16-Sep-06, 18:14
I fear that's just a part of the truth (sorry, canuck, not trying to accuse you of speading half-truths).
The real underlying causes of HIV spreading in Africa are two, if information I've seen in a TV documentary on the subject is to be believed:
1. the method of contraception used in the absence of a condom; and
2. a combination of prostitution which can be directly linked back to poverty, and promiscuity, which is a cultural issue in many parts of Africa.
There is another factor, which is the practice of female circumcision in Africa. The woman's genitals are essentially sewn up, with only a small outlet for bodily functions, so that anal intercourse is more commonly practiced than normal intercourse as it's less painful. This promotes the spread of the AIDS virus even faster.
I fear that's just a part of the truth (sorry, canuck, not trying to accuse you of speading half-truths).
The real underlying causes of HIV spreading in Africa are two, if information I've seen in a TV documentary on the subject is to be believed:
1. the method of contraception used in the absence of a condom; and
2. a combination of prostitution which can be directly linked back to poverty, and promiscuity, which is a cultural issue in many parts of Africa.
The condom issue is only a smidgen of the massive catastrophe.
And as G2 points out, it varies from region to region.
Maybe we should return this thread to gleebers' orginal concern.
Ok. Lets be current. Africa is being ravaged by HIV and AIDS on an almost unimaginable scale. Guess who is actively discouraging the distribution and use of condoms in Africa?
OK. But this is a different arguement altogether. Also another reason of the out of control spread of aids in africa is that many of the affected sell their blood in order to eat, and the blood is not subjected to the same screening tests as we have.
robglysen
16-Sep-06, 22:15
I just watched a documentary with Tony Robinson which basically said that a vast portion of the pop. of Uganda isn't bothering with condoms becasue they all think the end of the world is coming, and the only part of the bible preached is revelations, in fact in many places its the only education.
oldmarine
17-Sep-06, 00:11
Are these the same people who declare Jihad in order to pretend that there is some sort of morality in random acts of mass murder? Are these the same people who issue Fatwahs to give others the "right" to murder somebody for writing a book they do not like? Are these the people who deem me to be an Infidel?
They are one and the same. Remember that these people lost the world power they had from 700 to 1600 AD or later and would like to regain that power.
Dreadnought
17-Sep-06, 00:41
It is quite possible that had the Moors not lost their influence over the mediterranean region, that the world would be farther advanced today than it currently is. We owe much to the Islamic scholars of 1000 years ago. Scientific teachings and mathematical discoveries which were subdued and ignored by the Christian church, therefore halting the advance of human achievement for nearly 800 years. Because the Christian church thrives on keeping its 'flock' ignorant and subservient.
I cannot condone what The Pope said as it was an historical text and bears little relatshionship to the modern world.
What does concern me is that Islam seems unable to take any form of criticism although their credo if followed allows for the non believer to be given the the same courtesy that Christ taught "Love thy neighbour as thyself""It also states that you should be kind to women and children..HOW does that equate with women being forced into Purdha.The Burkha?
Once Islam had a great empire and they have left a legacy within the borders of Europe second to none , they might long for the "Gardens of Grenada" but unless they are prepared to move on then I for one have serious reserevations.
Yes The Pope has made a serious gaff which I am somewhat surprised at but it does not shock me.
As to whether he should apologise that is a matter for his own conscience.
The only gods we should have are those that we can tear appart. if we need to have a god at all.
The Pepsi Challenge
18-Sep-06, 12:01
"These [words] were in fact a quotation from a medieval text which do not in any way express my personal thought. At this time I wish also to add that I am deeply sorry for the reactions in some countries to a few passages of my address at the University of Regensburg" - Pope Benedict XVI
Nuff said.
The Pepsi Challenge
18-Sep-06, 12:06
Well, not really...
Considering what has happened in the last few days - churches being burned, nuns been shot etc. - it just goes to show how accurate the text the Pope was reading from actually was.
Nuff said (reprise)
Well, not really...
Considering what has happened in the last few days - churches being burned, nuns been shot etc. - it just goes to show how accurate the text the Pope was reading from actually was.
Nuff said (reprise)
Sounds like a 'Self Fulfilling Prophecy' to me!
Well, not really...
Considering what has happened in the last few days - churches being burned, nuns been shot etc. - it just goes to show how accurate the text the Pope was reading from actually was.
Nuff said (reprise)
Spot on!
I'm afraid that Islam only has a place in modern society if it is the only religion.
They have no tollerence of other religions, and while decrying Christian faith, they fail to realise that it is only our Christian values that prevent us taking the bull by the horns.
Hard to see a way through this without radical measures (much like the muslims have displayed for a long time now).
Stop appeasing them.
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