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View Full Version : Another hole in Alex's argument........if you can call it that



weezer 316
14-May-11, 12:48
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/8512843/Alex-Salmond-is-misleading-Scots-about-independence-says-constitutional-expert.html

Makes many of the points I aint eloquent enough to make!

Kells
14-May-11, 13:13
" Prof Bogdanor, whose most famous former student is David Cameron" That says it all for me. lol

Walter Ego
14-May-11, 13:46
" Prof Bogdanor, whose most famous former student is David Cameron" That says it all for me. lol

If that 'says it all' to you, then that's one hell of a set of blinkers you've got strapped to your head.

I'd be more interested in how much experience the man has in these matters.

weezer 316
14-May-11, 14:28
" Prof Bogdanor, whose most famous former student is David Cameron" That says it all for me. lol

Probably does sau it all for you, and thats the issue with scotland! This man worked on the split of Czechoslovakia, Montenegro and Kosovo. I seriously doubt there is a more qualified person alive to pass judgement on scottish independence.......

But why let the truth get in the way of perfectly good narrow mindedness eh!

NickInTheNorth
14-May-11, 14:49
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/8512843/Alex-Salmond-is-misleading-Scots-about-independence-says-constitutional-expert.html

Makes many of the points I aint eloquent enough to make!

Seems to me that he makes the same point several times, and not very eloquently at that.

The point would appear to be that he is a constitutional expert and unless he says that Scotland can have independence then it cannot.

Hang on a few hours, doubtless there will be another expert along to state precisely the opposite...

Dusty
14-May-11, 15:26
The Prof. also appears to have some difficulty in differentiating between independence and separatism.
Also from the Telegraph:
"For all those who know Scotland and all those who think they know, please visit youtube and search for Precious Few Heroes .
A short ,well made film , interesting and educational.
Enjoy".

Walter Ego
14-May-11, 15:28
Seems to me that he makes the same point several times, and not very eloquently at that.

The point would appear to be that he is a constitutional expert and unless he says that Scotland can have independence then it cannot.

Hang on a few hours, doubtless there will be another expert along to state precisely the opposite...


I'd say that the point is that Independence is not just a quick vote and a scribble on a bit of paper, like many appear to think. It's going to take a lot of careful work right from the outset and could easily get bogged down.

John Little
14-May-11, 16:30
The Prof. also appears to have some difficulty in differentiating between independence and separatism.
Also from the Telegraph:
"For all those who know Scotland and all those who think they know, please visit youtube and search for Precious Few Heroes .
A short ,well made film , interesting and educational.
Enjoy".


I found that film useful to a point. I think that Scotland could make it alone and that if `Scots want it then they should.

But the film lost me in logic when they started talking about independence from Britain.

I do not follow that.

Can England be independent from Britain too?

Or the perception that somehow Scotland was a colony in the empire which she part owned and built up. Can Scotland be independent from something she herself is a part of? Can the head be independent from the body?

I'm getting the distinct impression that the rationale for independence is of the heart, for I have seen little of the head.

That in no way invalidates it but it means that I am never going to understand it.



and as an afterthought- would the dastardly English navy have blockaded the Darien coast if the Stuart woman had not ordered it for fear of competition with royal possessions in America? It might have been the damned English (undemocratic) parliament that forced the Act of Union, but the ruling dynasty was a Scottish house I think...

oldmarine
14-May-11, 18:22
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/8512843/Alex-Salmond-is-misleading-Scots-about-independence-says-constitutional-expert.html

Makes many of the points I aint eloquent enough to make!

This is too political for an outsider like me to get involved.

Kells
14-May-11, 20:54
If that 'says it all' to you, then that's one hell of a set of blinkers you've got strapped to your head.

I'd be more interested in how much experience the man has in these matters.

I do not wear blinkers on my head or in my mind and yes I am more interested in how much experience the man has in these matters rather than who his former student was. My point entirely.

Kells
14-May-11, 21:07
Probably does sau it all for you, and thats the issue with scotland! This man worked on the split of Czechoslovakia, Montenegro and Kosovo. I seriously doubt there is a more qualified person alive to pass judgement on scottish independence.......

But why let the truth get in the way of perfectly good narrow mindedness eh!

He is but one expert with one opinion about what Scotland.s future should be. He was one of many experts on Contemporary Law who worked on the split of Czechoslovakia, Montenegro and Kosovo and certainly an outstanding man in his field but I believe that the only people who have the right to decide or sit on judgment of scottish independence are the people of Scotland.

Walter Ego
15-May-11, 06:17
I do not wear blinkers on my head or in my mind and yes I am more interested in how much experience the man has in these matters rather than who his former student was. My point entirely.


Engage reverse...


...and pedal;)

Walter Ego
15-May-11, 06:26
He is but one expert with one opinion about what Scotland.s future should be. He was one of many experts on Contemporary Law who worked on the split of Czechoslovakia, Montenegro and Kosovo and certainly an outstanding man in his field but I believe that the only people who have the right to decide or sit on judgment of scottish independence are the people of Scotland.

I don't beleive the gentleman was saying that he should decide the future of Scotland.

He was pointing out the difficulties likely to be encountered. As John Little rightly pointed out, there are many of our countrymen and women who are thinking with their heart
- but not much use of the head. As Al Murray would say "They haven't thought it through":Razz

IF the vote goes for Independence - and I seriously doubt that it will - the route to Independence will be a long and potentially messy road. If every single issue isn't hammered out in fine detail then Scotland will never be taken seriously as an independent nation, we'll be a half-arsed hotchpotch Federal state.

And that fine detail isn't going to be easy to sort out.

Corrie 3
15-May-11, 09:16
The answer is easy Walter....If you are happy being Governed by the likes of Blair, Brown, Cameron and Clegg then you just vote NO when the time comes !

I don't think anyone has claimed that its going to be easy to breakaway from the UK, there is a lot at stake and a lot to sort out but for those that want it this could be our only chance to rule ourselves and prove to the World that we can be a great little nation instead of a country that's just stuck onto the top of England on a map!!!

C3.....:roll:;)

John Little
15-May-11, 09:23
"If you are happy being Governed by the likes of Blair, Brown, Cameron and Clegg..."

I must point out though C3 that two of those are Scots and one is of Scottish descent...

Corrie 3
15-May-11, 10:18
"If you are happy being Governed by the likes of Blair, Brown, Cameron and Clegg..."

I must point out though C3 that two of those are Scots and one is of Scottish descent...
I am fully aware of that fact John, and not one of them did a lot for Scotland in their time.
Time to give the alternatives a go, a party with fire in it's belly!!

C3.....;)

John Little
15-May-11, 10:23
So all those Scots like Broon and Blair, instead of cutting a figure on the Westminster stage, will now give their energies to Scottish politics.

Fair enough...

Kells
15-May-11, 10:26
Rubbish......... I am able to spot a badly written article and name dropping at the start of one is a clear sign of trying to gain credability, but obviously you are unaware of that.

pmcd
15-May-11, 10:28
It's "Auld Cynic" time....

1. Interesting that currently more English want Scotland to be independent than Scots do. Wonder why?

2. Alex will burn the midnight oil bigging up the Independence issue only to try to squeeze the max. out of the UK (Union) government. That's why he wants the referendum later, rather than sooner.

3. David C only has to sit tight whilst the promises of Council tax freezes, no Uni fees, no care costs, all mount up to become an embarrassingly large bill which he will then wave in the faces of the Scottish people saying "this is how much its cost us - and if you want independence, then this much is going on the bill!" .

The non-cynical part of me hopes that the combination of off-shore, renewables, proper banking, and self-confidence makes Scotland proudly ready to manage our own destiny.

bekisman
15-May-11, 10:40
"If you are happy being Governed by the likes of Blair, Brown, Cameron and Clegg..."

I must point out though C3 that two of those are Scots and one is of Scottish descent...

Ah The West Lothian question
Tam Dalyell: "For how long will English constituencies and English Honourable members tolerate ... at least 119 Honourable Members from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland exercising an important, and probably often decisive, effect on English politics while they themselves have no say in the same matters in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland?"

Things may change

Kells
15-May-11, 10:40
I don't beleive the gentleman was saying that he should decide the future of Scotland.

He was pointing out the difficulties likely to be encountered. As John Little rightly pointed out, there are many of our countrymen and women who are thinking with their heart
- but not much use of the head. As Al Murray would say "They haven't thought it through":Razz

IF the vote goes for Independence - and I seriously doubt that it will - the route to Independence will be a long and potentially messy road. If every single issue isn't hammered out in fine detail then Scotland will never be taken seriously as an independent nation, we'll be a half-arsed hotchpotch Federal state.

And that fine detail isn't going to be easy to sort out.
A badly written article that implies therefore does not require to justify so called hidden dangers that only he has thought about regarding independence.
I have no idea if the vote will go for independence, but if it does then I have enough respect for the Scottish people to believe that they will be aware of what lies ahead before it can come into being.

John Little
15-May-11, 10:53
I do confess that I am slowly, but surely, coming over to the side of Scottish Independence and what you say has a lot to do with it. And whereas I do not agree with all that this man says, it does make me think that Scotland should be independent.


http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/tim-lott-good-riddance-to-this-unequal-union-2284201.html

ducati
15-May-11, 12:07
I do confess that I am slowly, but surely, coming over to the side of Scottish Independence and what you say has a lot to do with it. And whereas I do not agree with all that this man says, it does make me think that Scotland should be independent.


http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/tim-lott-good-riddance-to-this-unequal-union-2284201.html

I'm going a bit the other way (and was already there) I hope the Scottish people, when they make the decision, do it with their eyes open to a massive drop in living standards.

Corrie 3
15-May-11, 12:17
I'm going a bit the other way (and was already there) I hope the Scottish people, when they make the decision, do it with their eyes open to a massive drop in living standards.
Now that is just scaremongering Ducati.......What proof or evidence do you have to substantiate your statement?

C3....:eek::confused

golach
15-May-11, 12:35
Now that is just scaremongering Ducati.......What proof or evidence do you have to substantiate your statement?

C3....:eek::confused

turn this one back to you. What proof or evidence do you have to counter Ducati's Statement?

secrets in symmetry
15-May-11, 12:45
Not all Scots want independence. Some of us couldn't do what we do now in Scotland if we were an independent small country. Scotland punches way above its weight in my field of work and I don't want to work in a North European minnow state. The irony is that the closest I could come to having the same world leading high tech facilities in the UK would be if I moved to South Wales! The reason for this is Welsh devolution! Devolution really is the best of both worlds in so many ways.

Last I looked, Scotland's GDP per capita was 5% lower than England's, the entire difference coming from London and SE England. 5% doesn't sound much, but it's roughly equivalent to another recession like the one we've just had. Independence would also see us lose our massive public funding difference over England due to the Barnett formula, but this would to an arguable extent be replaced by our share of oil revenues, at least in the short term.

ducati
15-May-11, 12:57
Now that is just scaremongering Ducati.......What proof or evidence do you have to substantiate your statement?

C3....:eek::confused

Common sense (and an understanding of finance). The massive borrowing required to set up all the institutions we don't have,
the distribition of the UK dept, the lack of support from UK, the rates we will need to borrow at. The incentives needed to keep existing foreign investment and attract more. The economic support required to gain the confidence of international markets....it just goes on forever.

Corrie 3
15-May-11, 13:12
turn this one back to you. What proof or evidence do you have to counter Ducati's Statement?
I dont have any Golach but I dont go around scaremongering!!!....:roll:
I am hoping in the next 3-4 years Alex & Co are going to come up with some facts and figures to show that the split is worth voting for, if he doesn't then I vote NO of course...
But at least I have faith and fire in my belly which I would have thought most Scots would have, but it seems I am wrong on that also!!!

C3.......:roll:;)

ducati
15-May-11, 13:21
I dont have any Golach but I dont go around scaremongering!!!....:roll:
I am hoping in the next 3-4 years Alex & Co are going to come up with some facts and figures to show that the split is worth voting for, if he doesn't then I vote NO of course...
But at least I have faith and fire in my belly which I would have thought most Scots would have, but it seems I am wrong on that also!!!

C3.......

Admirable, but to point out the obvious, independence will have to be bought and it will be very expensive indeed. I would expect we will mortgage the next three generations to pay for it. :eek:

Have you tried Gaviscone?

Shabbychic
15-May-11, 13:32
Admirable, but to point out the obvious, independence will have to be bought and it will be very expensive indeed. I would expect we will mortgage the next three generations to pay for it.

Some would argue that owning your own property, even with a mortgage, is better than living in poverty under a greedy landlord. ;)

Kells
15-May-11, 13:38
I dont have any Golach but I dont go around scaremongering!!!....:roll:
I am hoping in the next 3-4 years Alex & Co are going to come up with some facts and figures to show that the split is worth voting for, if he doesn't then I vote NO of course...
But at least I have faith and fire in my belly which I would have thought most Scots would have, but it seems I am wrong on that also!!!

C3.......:roll:;)

I think the recent election results proved you right, and I am sure that although so many Scottish people are passionate about being Scottish they also have a firm grasp of reality and a down to earth attitude towards money. In fact they are pretty well known as being very canny with money. lol

bekisman
15-May-11, 13:44
I think the recent election results proved you right, and I am sure that although so many Scottish people are passionate about being Scottish they also have a firm grasp of reality and a down to earth attitude towards money. In fact they are pretty well known as being very canny with money. lol

A 'down to Earth attitude' towards money, that's what the Germans think too!;)

The Scottish National Party is to lodge an official complaint with Germany’s advertising association, arguing the long-established marketing technique is offensive. ‘Schotten Preise’ is used in Germany to market products ranging from fast food to low-cost holidays, while the names of many discount stores contain the prefix “Mac”.

Travel agents regularly advertise “Schotten Preise” for bargains and last year the ADAC, a German motoring club, sent an email to 15 million customers featuring a kilt-wearing Scot pushing his car to save petrol.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/6479980/Racism-claim-over-mean-Scots-used-in-German-adverts.html

Kells
15-May-11, 13:51
A 'down to Earth attitude' towards money, that's what the Germans think too!;)

The Scottish National Party is to lodge an official complaint with Germany’s advertising association, arguing the long-established marketing technique is offensive. ‘Schotten Preise’ is used in Germany to market products ranging from fast food to low-cost holidays, while the names of many discount stores contain the prefix “Mac”.

Travel agents regularly advertise “Schotten Preise” for bargains and last year the ADAC, a German motoring club, sent an email to 15 million customers featuring a kilt-wearing Scot pushing his car to save petrol.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/6479980/Racism-claim-over-mean-Scots-used-in-German-adverts.html

That article make me laugh big time, so true........ lol Ah well I was told to mind the pennies and the pounds would look after themselves.

golach
15-May-11, 15:35
I dont have any Golach but I dont go around scaremongering!!!....:roll:
I am hoping in the next 3-4 years Alex & Co are going to come up with some facts and figures to show that the split is worth voting for, if he doesn't then I vote NO of course...
But at least I have faith and fire in my belly which I would have thought most Scots would have, but it seems I am wrong on that also!!! C3.......:roll:;)
Sorry Corrie 3, I do not think ducati was scaremongering, he was stating the bare and truthful facts, Salmod and his cronies could never run an independent Scotland IMHO. Edinburgh has never had any heavy industry, but since the 17th century relied on Insurance, Banking & Law to make money and did it well, what now, all the Finance companies are foreign owned, even our banks do not belong to us now. I worked for many years as a Customs Officer in the Whisky trade, even that is no longer owned by any single Scottish companies. How many of the Oil companies working off our shores are Scottish? Not many if any I suspect.

So Corrie 3 I politely ask you, what would be your advice to Mr Salmond be to make Scotland self sustainable?
I am not religious in any shape of form so I have little Faith and having a fire in my belly will not feed or clothe me. I am a proud Scot, prouder of being born in Thurso, I also have a clan and wear a kilt and like listening to Pipe bands, even like eating haggis, but just not a follower of A Salmond

ducati
15-May-11, 15:49
Some would argue that owning your own property, even with a mortgage, is better than living in poverty under a greedy landlord. ;)

Can you give some detail to that statement?

Corrie 3
15-May-11, 16:42
but just not a follower of A Salmond
So its not the party you are against Golach but the Leader?
I will tell you something, when Alex first came on the scene I hated him, and I mean hated him, he was so smug and arrogant and just the sight of his face made me puke!
But I looked deeper than one Man and found the party to have some good idea's, they seemed honest(as honest as politicians can be) and they talked straight. I think this last couple of years Alex has been told to calm it down a bit, dont be smug and arrogant and come across as a good leader of the party.
I know Edinburgh has no heavy industry and relies on banking and insurance, but doesnt London? We have to look to Glasgow, and the other cities to bring back a manufacturing industry base, we are good at that, we always have been. We can also do a lot more with our farming were we can export a lot more than we do at present and I mentioned the other day that the tourism industry needs a good shake up. These are some of the things I would tell Alex to look at, lets get everyone back into work where we can take pride in what we do.
Just to ask you something, I don't know much about Switzerland to be honest but I know they have managed not to get into any wars and they all seem to make a decent living there so how do they do it? Couldn't we model ourselves on them?
It will be interesting to see what Alex comes up with to persuade the people to vote YES, I look forward to it but if I am not happy with it then I will vote NO!!

C3......;):)

golach
15-May-11, 17:08
Just to ask you something, I don't know much about Switzerland to be honest but I know they have managed not to get into any wars and they all seem to make a decent living there so how do they do it? Couldn't we model ourselves on them?
It will be interesting to see what Alex comes up with to persuade the people to vote YES, I look forward to it but if I am not happy with it then I will vote NO!! C3......;):)
The little I know of Switzerland come from my cousin, who was a draughts man in Dounreay, but considered his future would be better working for the European Nuclear Energy Authority, he ended his long work career this year working for CERN in Geneva, he helped to get the Accelerator fixed.
He has told me even the Swiss have problems high income tax, high cost of living, they even have national service I believe etc etc, his wife loves coming to Edinburgh for shopping, its so cheap she says, the Swiss medical system is not nearly as good as ours, but I have to admit this is hearsay, as I have never visited Switzerland, but a good Caithness loon who can still recite the Ghost of the Hill o' Forss, is who I would listen to.

Dusty
15-May-11, 19:12
But the film lost me in logic when they started talking about independence from Britain.

I do not follow that.



John, I think that the use of Britain and The United Kingdom are probably taken to mean the same thing.
I can see something in your point about Scotland being independant of something she helped create though.



and as an afterthought- would the dastardly English navy have blockaded the Darien coast if the Stuart woman had not ordered it for fear of competition with royal possessions in America? It might have been the damned English (undemocratic) parliament that forced the Act of Union, but the ruling dynasty was a Scottish house I think...


Although it is certainly attributed to the House of Stuart (restored) the ruling house at the time was the Dutch House of Orange in the person of William the third (or William the second in Scotland) who was married to Mary Stuart, the grandaughter of Charles the second and was her cousin. Since the time of the execution of Charles the first, Parliament had advised the crown what actions they wished to be taken as they do today.
William (who was at war with France at the time) therefore issued orders to the Dutch and English colonies in America not to supply the Scots at Darrien in order to placate the Spaniards who claimed the territory as their own.
The East India Company also employed various legal and lobbying tactics to prevent the sucess of the Scottish venture to preserve their own monopoly of trade with the far east. They claimed that Scotland had no authority from the king to raise funds outside of the "English Realm" and so contributions from foreign investors had to be repaid, Dutch and English investors were forced to withdraw their support, leaving Scotland as the only place finance for the project could be raised.
The upshot was that the venture failed dramatically and Scottish nobles in Parliament carried the endorsement of the 1707 Act of Union in an attempt to recoup their substantial losses and gain access for the country to trade routes previously denied to them by the English government.
The failure of the Darrien Adventure was of course not the sole reason for the Union of the Parliaments but it was reckoned to have been a major contributory factor.

ducati
15-May-11, 19:19
Get a grip, this isn't about who can give the best history lessons. :lol:

neilsermk1
15-May-11, 21:42
I am fully aware of that fact John, and not one of them did a lot for Scotland in their time.
Time to give the alternatives a go, a party with fire in it's belly!!

C3.....;)

They didnt do very much for Wales, NorthernIreland or Englad either

ducati
15-May-11, 23:15
Interesting TV prog tonight about Alex Salmond and the SNP election landslide, hosted by Michael Portillo.

Anyone see it?

Walter Ego
16-May-11, 09:27
.....



Although it is certainly attributed to the House of Stuart (restored) the ruling house at the time was the Dutch House of Orange in the person of William the third (or William the second in Scotland) who was married to Mary Stuart, the grandaughter of Charles the second and was her cousin. Since the time of the execution of Charles the first, Parliament had advised the crown what actions they wished to be taken as they do today.
William (who was at war with France at the time) therefore issued orders to the Dutch and English colonies in America not to supply the Scots at Darrien in order to placate the Spaniards who claimed the territory as their own.
The East India Company also employed various legal and lobbying tactics to prevent the sucess of the Scottish venture to preserve their own monopoly of trade with the far east. They claimed that Scotland had no authority from the king to raise funds outside of the "English Realm" and so contributions from foreign investors had to be repaid, Dutch and English investors were forced to withdraw their support, leaving Scotland as the only place finance for the project could be raised.
The upshot was that the venture failed dramatically and Scottish nobles in Parliament carried the endorsement of the 1707 Act of Union in an attempt to recoup their substantial losses and gain access for the country to trade routes previously denied to them by the English government.
The failure of the Darrien Adventure was of course not the sole reason for the Union of the Parliaments but it was reckoned to have been a major contributory factor.

So in other words, Scotland decided it was a good idea to get a slice of the international action and got outgunned, outmanouvered and skinned by everyone else.

Big boys games have big boys rules. The Portugese, Spanish, Dutch, English and French all undertood the risks and had been playing the game for years. Look at any colonial history in the past 400 years and you'll find that this was everyday dealings as far as the big players were concerned.

Scotland was out of its league but didn't have the nous to work it out. Her politicians and noblemen decided they wanted to be another England and gambled all on an ill-fated and ridiculous mission to Darien. And Scotland paid heavily for their greed. Remember, these were Scottish politicians and moneymen who instigated this little jaunt - not the English. They failed to see the inevitable outcome.
Only 50 years previously Scottish Armies had been more than happy to play both sides in the English Civil Wars, so anyone who believes that the boot was purely on the English foot in the late 17th and early 18th century is somewhat off the mark.

If we are to get Independence, then we need to ensure that it is wth our eyes wide open, listen to what people outside Scotland (who actually have experience in these matters) have to say as well as our own (sometimes sadly blinkered and romantic) notions of how an Independent Scotland will work.

Comments like those of Kells who rather snootily dismiss anything that doesn't sit right with their own view of how the world is (or believe it will all work out as they have 'fire in their belly') should be treated with extreme caution.
This is a fight that will be won with the head, not the heart. And certainly not by ridiculous blind 'patriotism', constantly referring to the Treaty of Arbroath and other medieval sideshows or tediously wailing 'freedom! on internet forums.

Also, crowing that the SNP's amazing achievement is an endorsement by a huge majority that independence is to be sought wouldn't be very wise right now......;)

We stand and wait.

Dusty
16-May-11, 11:07
I took so long in writing a reply due to other demands on my time that I was timed out and lost the content which I can't be bothered to re-write.
In a nutshell, I agree with some of the sentiments and/or statements but not others.
No history lesson intended...........I wouldn't dare.

Walter Ego
16-May-11, 12:17
I took so long in writing a reply due to other demands on my time that I was timed out and lost the content which I can't be bothered to re-write.
In a nutshell, I agree with some of the sentiments and/or statements but not others.
No history lesson intended...........I wouldn't dare.

Don't get me wrong, Dusty. My post wasn't a direct counter to your post - just outlining the harsh realities of using historical reference (as some are keen to do) to justify the reasons for Scots independance.

I couldn't care less who did what to whom in the past, I'm interested in looking forward - not backwards...unlike more than a few 'Nationalists', I'm afraid.:(

Kells
16-May-11, 14:13
[QUOTE=Walter Ego;850481]So in other words, Scotland decided it was a good idea to get a slice of the international action and got outgunned, outmanouvered and skinned by everyone else.

Big boys games have big boys rules. The Portugese, Spanish, Dutch, English and French all undertood the risks and had been playing the game for years. Look at any colonial history in the past 400 years and you'll find that this was everyday dealings as far as the big players were concerned.

Scotland was out of its league but didn't have the nous to work it out. Her politicians and noblemen decided they wanted to be another England and gambled all on an ill-fated and ridiculous mission to Darien. And Scotland paid heavily for their greed. Remember, these were Scottish politicians and moneymen who instigated this little jaunt - not the English. They failed to see the inevitable outcome.
Only 50 years previously Scottish Armies had been more than happy to play both sides in the English Civil Wars, so anyone who believes that the boot was purely on the English foot in the late 17th and early 18th century is somewhat off the mark.

If we are to get Independence, then we need to ensure that it is wth our eyes wide open, listen to what people outside Scotland (who actually have experience in these matters) have to say as well as our own (sometimes sadly blinkered and romantic) notions of how an Independent Scotland will work.

Comments like those of Kells who rather snootily dismiss anything that doesn't sit right with their own view of how the world is (or believe it will all work out as they have 'fire in their belly') should be treated with extreme caution.
This is a fight that will be won with the head, not the heart. And certainly not by ridiculous blind 'patriotism', constantly referring to the Treaty of Arbroath and other medieval sideshows or tediously wailing 'freedom! on internet forums.

Also, crowing that the SNP's amazing achievement is an endorsement by a huge majority that independence is to be sought wouldn't be very wise right now......;)

We stand and wait.[/QUOTE

Which comment of mine requires extreme caution Weezer, and I snootily dismissed what? I believe in the people of Scotland and believe they have the right to decide their own future. I certainly agree it is not about the past it is the present and the future that the people of Scotland have to decide about and also I am sure make their choice based not only what they feel in their hearts but also as I said before being a canny race will also consider all the implications.

The people of Scotland voted for the SNP and it has been well celebrated if that is what you mean by crowing but who has said it means it is an endorsment of anything other than a Scottish Parliment and hopefully a referendome on indepencence?

ducati
16-May-11, 18:03
I wouldn't underestimate the rest of the UK's potential to be bitter and vindictive. Along the lines you don't want anything more to do with us so........end of English and Welsh tourists, English owned business leaving (they are only here because it is a cheap part of the UK to do business). And lots of other examples I can't be bothered to put in just now.

So if we are to go it alone, we really need to think in terms of how do we replace a lot of lost revenue as well as generate more new revenue.

Kells
16-May-11, 19:56
I wouldn't underestimate the rest of the UK's potential to be bitter and vindictive. Along the lines you don't want anything more to do with us so........end of English and Welsh tourists, English owned business leaving (they are only here because it is a cheap part of the UK to do business). And lots of other examples I can't be bothered to put in just now.

So if we are to go it alone, we really need to think in terms of how do we replace a lot of lost revenue as well as generate more new revenue.


There have been a lot of good points raised in this thread, some of them obvious and some a lot of nonsense but you have come up with something new. A valid point worth a lot more thought and one which I hope will be considered if and when it comes to a vote.

Walter Ego
16-May-11, 20:59
....

....
Which comment of mine requires extreme caution Weezer, and I snootily dismissed what? I believe in the people of Scotland and believe they have the right to decide their own future. I certainly agree it is not about the past it is the present and the future that the people of Scotland have to decide about and also I am sure make their choice based not only what they feel in their hearts but also as I said before being a canny race will also consider all the implications.

The people of Scotland voted for the SNP and it has been well celebrated if that is what you mean by crowing but who has said it means it is an endorsment of anything other than a Scottish Parliment and hopefully a referendome on indepencence?

Walter not Weezer:cool:

You were rather scornful of the idea that someone who has a wealth of experience in brokering agreements abroad could actually have something useful to say regarding Scotlands' road to Independance.


Regarding my 'crowing' comment, I've already stated that this was an amazing achievement. Unfortunately, there are the more fanciful minded nationalists who are already running around attempting to portray this landslide as a clear green light for Independance. I know this because I've met them on my travels around the country.

It isn't a green light at all.

That's where my 'crowing' comment comes from.

Kells
16-May-11, 23:04
Walter not Weezer:cool:

You were rather scornful of the idea that someone who has a wealth of experience in brokering agreements abroad could actually have something useful to say regarding Scotlands' road to Independance.


Regarding my 'crowing' comment, I've already stated that this was an amazing achievement. Unfortunately, there are the more fanciful minded nationalists who are already running around attempting to portray this landslide as a clear green light for Independance. I know this because I've met them on my travels around the country.

It isn't a green light at all.

That's where my 'crowing' comment comes from.



Ooops sorry Walter.....I was scornful of the way the article was written, the name dropping used in the first para was a big turn off for me and still is as it had nothing to do with the Prof knowledge or expearience.

I could not see that anyone on the thread had been crowing or regarded the landslide as an indication of anything other than the likelyhood of a ref in the near future. There has always been a group side show with the SNP who live on a different planet so I can well believe they would think that way but I doubt that the bulk of the voters think that way.

Walter Ego
17-May-11, 07:30
Ooops sorry Walter.....I was scornful of the way the article was written, the name dropping used in the first para was a big turn off for me and still is as it had nothing to do with the Prof knowledge or expearience.

I could not see that anyone on the thread had been crowing or regarded the landslide as an indication of anything other than the likelyhood of a ref in the near future. There has always been a group side show with the SNP who live on a different planet so I can well believe they would think that way but I doubt that the bulk of the voters think that way.

Certainly no-one on this thread, Kells. But the Ministry of Truth operatives are out there, along with the 'chip on the shoulder' brigade. We need to ensure they don't railroad the whole show, give them an inch.....

RecQuery
17-May-11, 08:00
It would be nice to have articles from something other than the Torygraph.

EDIT:- With that being said I've found these interesting:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/politics/control-of-borrowing-corporation-tax-and-the-seabed-salmond-s-key-demands-1.1101472 (http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/politics/control-of-borrowing-corporation-tax-and-the-seabed-salmond-s-key-demands-1.1101472)
http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/politics/Eddie-Barnes-What-the-new.6768342.jp
http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-who-loses-if-scotland-goes-it-alone/6524
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/may/08/scotland-dour-national-traits-snp
http://blogs.channel4.com/gurublog/is-british-tv-failing-scotland/1135
http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/comment/iain-macwhirter/unionists-have-a-fight-on-their-hands-to-beat-independence-1.1100894

And if you want a chuckle check out some of the comments on Sun and Telegraph articles on the subject. Such as:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3575752/Sun-poll-finds-we-want-Scots-independence-more-than-they-do.html

Or the ones that have been posted earlier, they do realise that vitriol like that isn't helping their case. Actually I'd say the best aggregator to use for stuff like or anything else related is Reddit

http://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/ (http://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/)
http://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/
http://www.reddit.com/r/Scotland/

Humerous Vegetable
17-May-11, 12:14
Interesting TV prog tonight about Alex Salmond and the SNP election landslide, hosted by David Portillo.

Anyone see it?

Yes, and even more amazing that the SNP won with such an impressive majority, when they had the gruesome Portillo trailing around after them, putting voters off.

Kells
17-May-11, 12:32
Certainly no-one on this thread, Kells. But the Ministry of Truth operatives are out there, along with the 'chip on the shoulder' brigade. We need to ensure they don't railroad the whole show, give them an inch.....

I doubt that Salmond is going to allow anyone to railroad anything he is showing himself to be very astute and it is going to be interesting to see where he leads this country.

weezer 316
17-May-11, 15:12
Some would argue that owning your own property, even with a mortgage, is better than living in poverty under a greedy landlord. ;)

Clearly better than living under a greedy landlord. What this has to do with the union though is beyond me!

Shabbychic
17-May-11, 16:52
What this has to do with the union though is beyond me!

Wow....I'm glad something's beyond you. You seem to know the answer to everything else.

It was in response to a statement made by someone else, if you must know.

ducati
17-May-11, 18:39
Wow....I'm glad something's beyond you. You seem to know the answer to everything else.

It was in response to a statement made by someone else, if you must know.

It was a response to me I think but it makes no sense at all :confused

Corrie 3
17-May-11, 19:18
Clearly better than living under a greedy landlord. What this has to do with the union though is beyond me!
Wow, something is beyond Weezer, now there's a first!!!!!...And I thought you were the clever one?
I got it and I am supposed to be the dumb Scot who has to have his mind made up for him by the likes of you!!
Perhaps you aren't the well educated Tory I thought you were!!!
Never mind.....

C3.....:roll:;)

weezer 316
18-May-11, 09:18
Sarcasm doesn't come across well on posts clearly.....

Corrie please dont insinuate I said you are dumb. You are very good at making a moutina out of not even a mole hill when it comes to politics you diasgree with, but im sure your no fool!

And I clearly go the point, I think shabbychic missed mine, a fruitless attempt at sacrasm I grant you, but a pertinent point none the less. Namely, who the hell is the greedy landlord!