View Full Version : CHaP is dead - official
NickInTheNorth
13-May-11, 16:22
just heard on the radio that CHaP is dead, council website has more details (http://www.highland.gov.uk)
Sad to see a good idea killed of by bureaucratic incompetence, but how often does it happen?
Humerous Vegetable
13-May-11, 17:31
This incompetent council has cost local taxpayers £14 million over this failed project. No wonder Highland council has such a large budget deficit,and is having to make so many cuts to services. They should be forced to resign.
£14 million for a botched project led by micky mouse managers,im sure it costed taxpayers alot more than £14 million.
I'm no Einstein but could see this was a big white elephant from day one - Heads should roll on this as taxpayers have funded this since the beginning.
How much morre will it take to re-instate heating systems into the houses - at least another half a million
Private householders should be handsomely re-imbursed as they spent their own money installing this useless system
£14 million could have gone a long way to funding the new High school
Highland Council !! - Its little wonder they have budget problems!!
We could start with a full page apology on the front page of the Courier/Journal with a large picture of a named and very senior person responsible for this fiasco, the second paragraph of which photo article would show some resonance with the recent leaders of the losing parties in the Scottish elections by an immediate declaration of resignation.
Council language does not use pronouns, especially the first person. It is always "It has been decided" rather than "I have decided". Keeps up the layers of obfuscation which allows these occasional Walter Mittys to exercise a power of which they are not worthy, and sadly, all too often cannot handle.
Fortunately, these individuals are few and far between. I am generally a great admirer of the Highland Council, but I think this case calls for an immediate dose of de-lousing!
has anyone heard what kind of heating the council will be putting back into houses?
orkneycadian
14-May-11, 13:43
£14 million? Pffffft! Nothing! At least £10 million per year of public money is being spent subsidising the Northlink ferry service from Scrabster to Stromness when it has been demonstrated that the service can be run without public subsidy. 10 years at ~£10 million per year plus God knows how many more millions on "essential upgrades" to the harbour facilities.
Only when you have officials frittering away over £100 million on something worthless can you comment on them being useless ;). £14m is small change by comparison! Heck, even Orkney Islands Council managed to fritter away more than £14m in the 1980's trying (and failing) to establish a short sea ferry service!
its not a competition to see what council can fritter away the most money orkneycadian.
£14 million is an awful lot of money by anyones standards and this thread is about the failed CHaP heating scheme not about the ferry to orkney
£14 million? Pffffft! Nothing! At least £10 million per year of public money is being spent subsidising the Northlink ferry service from Scrabster to Stromness when it has been demonstrated that the service can be run without public subsidy. 10 years at ~£10 million per year plus God knows how many more millions on "essential upgrades" to the harbour facilities.
Only when you have officials frittering away over £100 million on something worthless can you comment on them being useless ;). £14m is small change by comparison! Heck, even Orkney Islands Council managed to fritter away more than £14m in the 1980's trying (and failing) to establish a short sea ferry service!
essex boy
14-May-11, 16:26
The sad thing is that boimass woodchip plants DO work! ( Large chunks of Finland run on them) If only the council had got a proven company to run the show
because of poor management of this project. we have threats of school closures and reduced care in the commutity and who will pay to put the heating systems right for the hundreds of houses that joined the scheme.
its goin to cost a fortune to put this right,the council are as thick as mince
at least mince has a purpose
£14 million? Pffffft! Nothing! At least £10 million per year of public money is being spent subsidising the Northlink ferry service from Scrabster to Stromness when it has been demonstrated that the service can be run without public subsidy. 10 years at ~£10 million per year plus God knows how many more millions on "essential upgrades" to the harbour facilities.
Only when you have officials frittering away over £100 million on something worthless can you comment on them being useless ;). £14m is small change by comparison! Heck, even Orkney Islands Council managed to fritter away more than £14m in the 1980's trying (and failing) to establish a short sea ferry service!
£100 million over 10 years for a subsidy to Orkney, eh?
That was the projected cost of a John O Groat to South Ronaldsay tunnel a few years ago.
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/scotland/100m-tunnel-to-Orkney-feasible.2609387.jp
Dont get thick mince nowadays.......What a disgrace, £14 million and I bet all the rest with their high powered salaried engineers ect ect and councillors expenses running backwards and forwards to their high powered meetings and trips to Finland ect ect.Talk Talk and more rubbish spoken by a lot of numpties. Time they were all called to task. How can one believe one word the council says nowadays........No stairlifts for the poor old buddies, council cannot afford. Half hour home helps, time to get their coat off and on I rather guess. Makes one wonder what the council is all about do they know if they are coming or going? Never mind we will now all have to stump out for the new heating in these houses plus decoration ect ect totally a downright disgrace.
Remember Steve Barron's quote in his letter to the Groat while trying to drum up support for his chancers at Ignis Energy......
"I write to reassure your readers that the Highland Council is confident that the CHaP project can be successfully transferred to Ignis."
and when challenged on Ignis's ability to meet even the basic criteria of the tender...
"The council is confident that all of these components will be in place by the end of April."
I feel sorry for the 242 householders who will no longer get the cheap heating the Council promised them, but by being found out in their underhand dealings with Ignis Energy the Council has spared the taxpayers a waste of further millions and millions of pounds.
Although no legal action is now going to be taken by the unsuccessful bidder(s), there will be significant pressure applied for an investigation into the practices and behaviours of Council staff involved in this to determine if they were purely gullible or completely corrupt.
Long live people power - this outcome would not have happened without the continued scrutiny that various parties kept up.
Unfortunately, the Councils are all under huge pressure to meet Govt targets on renewables generally. In the headlong rush to meet these unattainable goals, this, and other white elephants such as wind farms are being pushed through the system with no thought of their actual production or effectiveness or consequences. Getting the funding in the first place is the easy bit. Having said that, why was a proven system not procured, as these schermes CAN work if properly set up. Is anyone accountable for this fiasco?
I would like to bet that at least some of the funding is what the renewables industry creams off everyone else's electricity and gas bills in what is called "Climate Change Levy" . In the case of wind energy, this means that all consumers club together to line the pockets of landowners and the power industry to install costly, inefficient and non-productive schemes to the detriment of Sccotland's great glory - her wild and beautiful landscapes. . The whole thing is a huge scam in which local govt is sometimes an unwilling and often incompetent participant.
I wonder if the council are going to consult with tenants as to which heating system will replace the old one, I very much dout it and if what has happened is anything to go by it won't be the cheapest option like putting gas combi boilers into the houses that has town gas
has the council contacted anyone yet about the new heating systems to be installed?
has the council contacted anyone yet about the new heating systems to be installed?
Yes .Its a new "HOT AIR" system piped directly from the Council Chambers with Councillor G Smith at the front ..
For what it's worth, here is the Council's reply to the last set of questions put to Steve Barron, Director of Housing before they pulled the plug last week.
--------------------------------------------
Q1: Could you clarify how Ignis Energy Ltd met the published tender criteria.....
Answer: Ignis proposals from Prequalification submission through to final tender stage were presented as a consortium approach. Their proposal evidenced, incorporated, and was supported by, significant organisations with the experience, technical ability and financial viability to allow a positive evaluation of their proposal as a whole at each stage including appointment as preferred bidder.
My Comment: So clearly Ignis were bluffing the Council as none of this great consortium ever materialised.
--------------------------------------------
Q2: You indicated.....that Ignis Energy Ltd "...are supported by Ludgate Environmental Fund..". Can you confirm what you mean by "supported"?...
Answer: Ludgate Environmental Fund's support has been evidenced to the Council in the form of correspondence, statements in Board minutes, a Collaboration Agreement (including loan facilities) and draft funding agreements and guarantees. These relate to both Regen Energy Ltd and Ignis Energy Ltd.
My Comment: Again, a bluff as there were only ever draft documents produced.
--------------------------------------------
Q3: You also indicated.....that Craig Ibbetson and John Chappell are key individuals to awarding the contract to Ignis Energy Ltd. However at the time of the announcement of preferred bidder on 22nd December 2010, neither of these people were officers of the company – they had their appointments terminated in April 2010. Can you therefore confirm what relevant experience Ignis Energy Ltd had at the time…in the absence of these seemingly key individuals ?
Answer: Mr Ibbetson and Mr Chappell were re-appointed directors as from 26 November 2010
My Comment: This is a case of deliberately not answering the question. The decision to make Ignis preferred bidder was taken by the Council in November – when these two chancers were not directors. The Council shall be questioned again on this point.
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Q4: During the week of 11th April 2011 canvassers came to the door of a number, if not all, of the householders connected to the scheme with the aim of getting them to sign the contract. Can you please inform us:
a) was the Council aware of this exercise
b) who did these canvassers represent
c) who were they employed by
d) did the Council agree to this approach
e) who paid for this exercise
f) why some householders were told that if they did not sign up to the new contract by the end of the week that their Housing Association landlord would considering evicting them ?
Answer: CHaP’s Project Manager, Peter Creasey was the only caller of whom I am aware. He has confirmed that “I myself was posting the final letters from Ignis on the 13th April which contained alternative contracts that had been previously returned on the wrong forms for tenants to return the correct ones and be eligible for the discount offered by Ignis, also reminders for those tenants that had not returned anything to the CHaP office at all. In doing so I attempted to speak to the above two categories at their doors to: a) explain that they had signed the wrong contract (100% were grateful that we called and saved them the confusion) and to this end all of tenants I spoke with handed back to me the correctly signed form. b) that had not returned anything to the CHaP office (these fell into the category of severe bad debtors and complete non payers ever). At each dwelling I introduced myself and told them my name and that I was from Caithness Heat and Power and explained that the purpose of my call to inform them that the deadline for returning contracts to get the best deal was Friday.”
Taking your subsidiary questions in turn:
a) The Council was aware that Mr Creasey was communication with customers.
b) Mr Creasey was representing CHaP.
c) Mr Creasey is employed by CHaP.
d) The Council agreed to Mr Creasey communicating with customers but was not specifically aware of the visits on 13th April. Mr Creasy was acting within the scope of previous discussions about his support for the Procurement process.
e) The exercise incurred no additional costs.
f) Mr Creasey confirms that no such statements were made by him.
My Comment: I’ll leave for anyone who was visited by Mr Creasey to pass comments on his remarks above.
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Q5: In March 2011 a planning application was made by Craig Ibbetson to extend a district heating system in Wick. Can you confirm:
a) is this application to extend the CHaP system
b) why this application is being considered in the name of someone who does not own or operate the existing system
c) why, as reported in the Caithness Courier quoting a spokesman for Highland Council's planning office in Wick, that this application will be dealt with under delegated powers rather than go before a committee ?
Answer: The application was made to extend the existing system. The application was made by Mr Ibbetson with the knowledge of the Council. It is not an unusual event e.g. prospective tenants apply for planning on leased properties and prospective purchasers apply for planning permission before finalising their purchase of property. The landlord/owner would get the benefit of the permission. Delegated powers were considered appropriate by Planning Officers for an application of this type.
My Comment: So I think I’ll apply for planning permission to demolish the Highland Council building in Inverness since it’s “not unusual” for any man and his dog to making planning applications to modify Council property. Also, the question as to why it was considered appropriate for delegated powers is not answered.
i called the council yesterday to ask what was happening with the replacement heating only to be asked "who is calling,to whom is it concerning?" i replied "im one of the mugs that payed to get this failed heating system installed and i want to know what is happening".
The kind council man on the end of the phone gave me another number to phone "the CHaP number" so i called Glynis at he CHaP office but i would have been better talking to a brick wall,sorry Glynis,i know its not your fault,you should be making Pete take the calls and deal with the angry CHaP customers.
This has been a farce from day one and is only getting worse.
Amongst the extensive coverage in the Caithness Courier I noticed the local councillors took the opportunity to get their mugshots and some comments in. Although councillor Ross is only newly elected, the other two, Fernie and Smith, were conspicuous by their absence over the past few months in not having any comment or input on behalf of constituents. Given that CHaP is such a significant project on their own home turf, why did they go into hiding over the whole process ?
I thought that councillors were supposed to be representatives of the people and not representatives of the council staff ?
Bill Fernie
21-May-11, 20:40
Amongst the extensive coverage in the Caithness Courier I noticed the local councillors took the opportunity to get their mugshots and some comments in. Although councillor Ross is only newly elected, the other two, Fernie and Smith, were conspicuous by their absence over the past few months in not having any comment or input on behalf of constituents. Given that CHaP is such a significant project on their own home turf, why did they go into hiding over the whole process ?
I thought that councillors were supposed to be representatives of the people and not representatives of the council staff ?
I would just point out that newspapers publish what they want and that we have no control over publishing of mugshots etc. I have responded to any enquiries about CHaP over the years. Since I was not a director of CHaP it is likely that more comments came from board members. Originally councillor Smith was a director on the CHaP board and when he departed, after things went wrong and the council took over the company, ex councillor MacNab went on the board with other councillors.
Following the resignation of Councillor MacNab I was approached to see if I would become a member of the board. It was not something that anyone would particularly relish - to go on to a failed project.
However I did accept, as in my view it is to try and represent local people in the best way I can until the company is finally wound up and to try my best to make sure local people are treated fairly in any changes to their heating systems.
There have been meetings over the past two or three years but due to the commercial information they have mainly been restricted to councillors and officials. There is still unfortunately the possibility of legal actions and until everything is finally resolved much of it will remain confidential. Eventually everything will be made available.
Councillors have had updates over the past few years and to us everything was being done to try and get the project to work and deliver cheap heating to people in Wick. Some have had this since it started but not from the power source that it was set up for. Reverting to the same heating that most people have in their homes whilst not what we wanted seems to be the only way forward now.
The Accounts Commission report set out what had happened and what went wrong with this project ( it is still available in full in the business index) Lessons have been learned and procedures should not let this happen again. There is much that I can agree with in many of the posts and elsewhere about CHaP and some that are wrong. In any debates or discussions there is right and wrong. What we probably can agree on is that the project was about improving the lives of people in Wick. Apart from the cheap heating some have enjoyed for a couple of years the project is a failure. This is despite a huge amount of work by many people and this continues now to try and sort out workable heating solutions for all of those who participated.
I have been a director on several companies (all unpaid) for both the council and charitable groups. Where they work you hardly hear anyone say a thing about involvement in them . I recently ceased to be a director of Highland Housing and Community Care Trust having been on it for 13 years since its inception. We built over 40 houses for elderly and disabled people. I have never seen an article in the newspapers about the work we did. I was a director and for a short period chairman of Highland Opportunity a Highland council company making loans available to Highland businesses. It has a highly successful track record but I see very little mention of it in the media. I am a director of the Laurandy Daycare Centre and a director and chairman of HomeStart Caithness. One offers services to the elderly and the other to young families. Why mention these? Just to show that councillors get involved in many aspects of our community and often it only hits the headlines when something goes wrong.
I do hope that I can use my experience of other organisations to assist the board of ChaP come to an end and protect the interests of the people who have had their heating from the project.
I would just point out that newspapers publish what they want and that we have no control over publishing of mugshots etc. I have responded to any enquiries about CHaP over the years. Since I was not a director of CHaP it is likely that more comments came from board members. Originally councillor Smith was a director on the CHaP board and when he departed, after things went wrong and the council took over the company, ex councillor MacNab went on the board with other councillors.
Following the resignation of Councillor MacNab I was approached to see if I would become a member of the board. It was not something that anyone would particularly relish - to go on to a failed project.
However I did accept, as in my view it is to try and represent local people in the best way I can until the company is finally wound up and to try my best to make sure local people are treated fairly in any changes to their heating systems.
There have been meetings over the past two or three years but due to the commercial information they have mainly been restricted to councillors and officials. There is still unfortunately the possibility of legal actions and until everything is finally resolved much of it will remain confidential. Eventually everything will be made available.
Councillors have had updates over the past few years and to us everything was being done to try and get the project to work and deliver cheap heating to people in Wick. Some have had this since it started but not from the power source that it was set up for. Reverting to the same heating that most people have in their homes whilst not what we wanted seems to be the only way forward now.
The Accounts Commission report set out what had happened and what went wrong with this project ( it is still available in full in the business index) Lessons have been learned and procedures should not let this happen again. There is much that I can agree with in many of the posts and elsewhere about CHaP and some that are wrong. In any debates or discussions there is right and wrong. What we probably can agree on is that the project was about improving the lives of people in Wick. Apart from the cheap heating some have enjoyed for a couple of years the project is a failure. This is despite a huge amount of work by many people and this continues now to try and sort out workable heating solutions for all of those who participated.
I have been a director on several companies (all unpaid) for both the council and charitable groups. Where they work you hardly hear anyone say a thing about involvement in them . I recently ceased to be a director of Highland Housing and Community Care Trust having been on it for 13 years since its inception. We built over 40 houses for elderly and disabled people. I have never seen an article in the newspapers about the work we did. I was a director and for a short period chairman of Highland Opportunity a Highland council company making loans available to Highland businesses. It has a highly successful track record but I see very little mention of it in the media. I am a director of the Laurandy Daycare Centre and a director and chairman of HomeStart Caithness. One offers services to the elderly and the other to young families. Why mention these? Just to show that councillors get involved in many aspects of our community and often it only hits the headlines when something goes wrong.
I do hope that I can use my experience of other organisations to assist the board of ChaP come to an end and protect the interests of the people who have had their heating from the project.
The Council and Councillors are out to rewrite history in a way that they want folk to remember CHaP and what you state "every thing was done" well "THATS NOT TRUE" .
Following the resignation of Councillor MacNab I was approached to see if I would become a member of the board. It was not something that anyone would particularly relish - to go on to a failed project. However I did accept, as in my view it is to try and represent local people in the best way I can until the company is finally wound up and to try my best to make sure local people are treated fairly in any changes to their heating systems.
Katrina McNab resigned in February - so you are acknowledging that CHaP was a failure waiting to be closed down back then - yet Steve Barron of the Council was still writing to the papers in April assuring everyone how successful the outcome was going to be.
Originally councillor Smith was a director on the CHaP board and when he departed, after things went wrong and the council took over the company, ex councillor MacNab went on the board with other councillors. Following the resignation of Councillor MacNab I was approached to see if I would become a member of the board.
And here lies a large part of the problem...councillors become directors of businesses of which they have absolutely no knowledge or experience. The role of a director is to strategically lead the business and to be legally accountable. So Smith, McNab and yourself have the technical / commercial / business knowledge and experience to strategically lead a company that develops and deploys energy systems ? If what you are supposed to be on the Board for is to protect the interests of a shareholder (i.e. the taxpayer) then your roles should be one of non-executive directors and you should have all been constructively challenging the Board at every step of the way. Which is basically what the Accounts Commission said. And as for the legally accountable part, for Smith and McNab to go into hiding / resign when things get difficult is just cowardly.
Councillors should focus on championing the cause of their constituents and not go about collecting badges of how many quango boards and committees they sit on. Quality, not quantity.
Bill Fernie
22-May-11, 10:11
I was asked if I would consider joining the board sometime after February and formally my name was put forward at the last Highland council meeting held on 12th May. I am not as yet a director as the board have yet to formally ask me and I have not attended any CHaP meetings as yet. I can understand what you are saying regarding folk becoming directors of companies about which they have little or no knowledge. However right across the whole field of directorships this is often the case and if it were not then many companies would not exist. The expertise usually lies with the people that are employed to advise the board and the directors role is to ask questions and try to ensure that finances are dealt with properly. In a fully commercial company I think what you say is more likely to be true, but as we know that is not always the case either. Do investment companies know anything much about the technical apsects of the companies they investing in or do they take risk that the expertise is present or can be hired in.
So to be clear I have been proposed to be a director by the full Highland Council and expect to be formally invited shortly. Then I will attend my first meeting of the board.
It is obvious form the papers published that CHap has struggled for some time. The full failure you refer to does not actually happen until the curtain comes down and after everything has been done to try and make it work. It certainly looks like we are at that stage now.
I do think anyone has been hiding but unfortunately as meetings are closed and much of it is confidential it is difficult for the public to see what is happening. This is not all that different from most companies.
As with the other companies I have been involved with either for Highland Council or the voluntary sector I will do my best to try and ensure things are done properly and ask questions to make sure I understand what is happening and to look after the interests of the council, council tax payers and people who are using the heating system as it stands at the moment. It can be difficult to find people to stand unpaid as directors of companies and I hope that this will not put people off offering their services in the future. It is not an easy thing to do and a great deal of time is required in some cases. All of the companies I am or have been involved in are trying to make life better for people both local and throughout the Highlands. Getting involved in your community is part of how we can improve lives. It also brings pressure and of course the need to be able to take that on. I will do my best to help with CHap now that I will be more closely involved and continue to scrutinise the papers brought forward to see things are being done properly. That still does not mean I have suddenly become an expert in heating systems but does mean that along with the other directors try to bring it to an end in the best possible way.
NickInTheNorth
22-May-11, 10:39
As with the other companies I have been involved with either for Highland Council or the voluntary sector I will do my best to try and ensure things are done properly and ask questions to make sure I understand what is happening and to look after the interests of the council, council tax payers and people who are using the heating system as it stands at the moment. It can be difficult to find people to stand unpaid as directors of companies and I hope that this will not put people offering their services in the future. It is not an easy thing to do and a great deal of time is required in some cases. All of the companies I am or have been involved in are trying to make life better for people both local and throughout the Highlands. Getting involved in your community is part of how we can improve lives. It also brings pressure and of course the need to be able to take that on. I will do my best to help with CHap now that I will be more closely involved and continue to scrutinise the papers broght forward to see things are being done properly. That still does not mean I have suddenly become an expert in heating systems but does mean that along with the other directors try to bring it to an end in the best possible way.
Bill I hope you will forgive the heavy snip of your post, just interested in the 2 points I have highlighte above.
The first point in italics should that not really be and to look after the interests of the people who are using the heating system, council tax payers, and the council; very specifically in that order?
As to the second point regarding the appointment of directors as underline above, would it not be easier to find people if artificial barriers were not put in place to start with. The current attempt by the council to recruit for the High Life Highland board being a case in point:
Directors sought for High Life Highland board (http://www.highland.gov.uk/yourcouncil/news/newsreleases/2011/May/2011-05-12-01.htm)
The Council particularly welcomes applications from individuals with:
a good track record in business or community management;
experience of working as part of a board or senior management team;
experience of leading a team within a company or community organisation;
knowledge of the cultural, learning and/or leisure sector in the Highlands; and
relevant business skills that could contribute to the development of the company; including financial, legal, property, personnel, marketing, ICT and general management skills.
(The above taken directly from the highland council website.)
I am certain that there are many people living in the highlands that could, and more importantly would be willing to, bring a great deal of common sense and inovation to the board, but due to circumstances have never had the opportunity to fulfil the requirements detailed above. Why is the council always so blinkered in it's approach to all things?
Bill Fernie
22-May-11, 13:34
Bill I hope you will forgive the heavy snip of your post, just interested in the 2 points I have highlighte above.
The first point in italics should that not really be and to look after the interests of the people who are using the heating system, council tax payers, and the council; very specifically in that order?
As to the second point regarding the appointment of directors as underline above, would it not be easier to find people if artificial barriers were not put in place to start with. The current attempt by the council to recruit for the High Life Highland board being a case in point:
Directors sought for High Life Highland board (http://www.highland.gov.uk/yourcouncil/news/newsreleases/2011/May/2011-05-12-01.htm)
The Council particularly welcomes applications from individuals with:
a good track record in business or community management;
experience of working as part of a board or senior management team;
experience of leading a team within a company or community organisation;
knowledge of the cultural, learning and/or leisure sector in the Highlands; and
relevant business skills that could contribute to the development of the company; including financial, legal, property, personnel, marketing, ICT and general management skills.
(The above taken directly from the highland council website.)
I am certain that there are many people living in the highlands that could, and more importantly would be willing to, bring a great deal of common sense and inovation to the board, but due to circumstances have never had the opportunity to fulfil the requirements detailed above. Why is the council always so blinkered in it's approach to all things?
No problem on the quote. I had deliberately not ranked the three categories as they are all important in different ways so the order I gave does not necessarily mean one is more important than the others. If you take each one in turn then you can make a case for any ranking. In the immediate future I would say the users of the system are the most important, and the other two have a varying degree of importance depending on what aspect you are looking at and the context and the time. They all have to go along together.
On the new Highland High Life company it is not with a view to cutting anyone out that these criteria were set - more that it will be important to try and get people with a degree of experience that will help run what will be a very big company in Highland. I do not think these are articial barriers. They may be a barrier if you dont have any of the particulars asked for but people gain experience in many different ways. Many people have the experience and background listed and others are on the way to gaining it and I hope we do get lots of applications from such people. If people wish to gain experience in these types of areas then there are ways to start, such as working on a voluntary committee and then progressing on to a company that may be set up for charitable purposes. Then over time you can move on to bigger or more complicated areas. Some people do have experience gained from employment that may be useful such working in places that accounting or book-keeping gives an insight into financial management or other areas - that could be helpful. But there are many other areas where skills are useful for companies and Highland Highlife is no different apart form being larger than most groups. For the most part the expertise on the day to day running will remain with the staff who transfer from the council to the new company. Over the years I have been on many committees right from when my children were young with school PTA's to voluntary groups, youth groups etc. I gained a great deal from all of them and many others do the same and as time moves on they go into other organisations gaining experience and taking with them what they have already learned. So I don't think there are barriers to anyone who really wants to go into being involved as an unpaid director. It all depends how much you want to do it and finding out how to get started. And of course be prepared for lots of stick if things do not go according to plan.
I haven't been following the rise and fall of CHaP, so sorry for being ill-informed but I understand that all the distribution pipework is in place but the heat is currently being supplied by a conventional boiler because the proposed eco-boiler had technical problems.
Can someone tell me why a fit-for-purpose boiler that meets the green aspirations of the council can't be fitted retrospectively?
secrets in symmetry
22-May-11, 15:02
That's a good question Rheghead. Perhaps dozy can tell us how the project could be rescued.
That's a good question Rheghead. Perhaps dozy can tell us how the project could be rescued.
I think the articles i placed in the local paper and on the ORG are enough to show how the project should have been handled. If you are asking if it could still be rescued ,the answer is YES . The main framework is there ,the building ,the pipework and the homes .We just need the right equipment and Community support ,none off which is forthcoming . How much would it cost to get it running properly ,a little bit more than the £1.5 million the Council will be paying to refit fires to the ex CHaP customers .If the Council had listened at the start ,this mess would have been avoidable.The scheme could still be an asset to the community if the council would just stop lying ..
Is it true that the pipework going into individual homes could not be turned off for maintenance or any other reason?
essex boy
22-May-11, 22:20
Sorry if this has already been said ,but was the failure to find a new company to run this due to the cheap price that house holds are paying for unlimited hot water/heat? I am a forest owner and know that all log prices have increased a hell of a lot since this chap plant was built. I would think it impossible to get the raw material ie: logs/woodchip at a price that would make any money at all for a new company selling heat for £9 a week as quoted in the last Groats.
secrets in symmetry
23-May-11, 00:22
I think the articles i placed in the local paper and on the ORG are enough to show how the project should have been handled. If you are asking if it could still be rescued ,the answer is YES . The main framework is there ,the building ,the pipework and the homes .We just need the right equipment and Community support ,none off which is forthcoming . How much would it cost to get it running properly ,a little bit more than the £1.5 million the Council will be paying to refit fires to the ex CHaP customers .If the Council had listened at the start ,this mess would have been avoidable.The scheme could still be an asset to the community if the council would just stop lying ..Thanks for your reply, and yes, I was asking if it could still be rescued.
Could you explain what you would do to rescue it? Would you install a wood burning boiler? Links to your old posts on the forum or in the local papers would suffice, but it would be good to get a brief summary here.
Thanks for your reply, and yes, I was asking if it could still be rescued.
Could you explain what you would do to rescue it? Would you install a wood burning boiler? Links to your old posts on the forum or in the local papers would suffice, but it would be good to get a brief summary here.
The quick answer is YES, it still could be rescued .NO, i would not install a wood burning boiler .The system we put forward uses a solid fuel boiler which is cheaper and more efficient, the key word in our system is "FLEXIBILITY".This system also produces high pressure steam which in turn can be used to generate electricity .The system we put to the council is flexible enough to allow us to use all of the tree, not just the trunk.We would process the woodfuel to get the maximum thermal return . Timber in Scotland has a high moisture content and our system gives us the flexibility to use any timber based product plus other biomass fuels .
Many European based systems use timber, but their timber is totally different to the type of timber we have here. So the system we put forward is designed to cope with a wide biomass fuel source which can be tweeked to meet local demand ..
I do think anyone has been hiding but unfortunately as meetings are closed and much of it is confidential it is difficult for the public to see what is happening.
It is primarily difficult for the public to see because the paid Council staff and the elected councillors won't tell them when they ask.
I first got drawn into this when I was approached by users of the heating scheme who said that a) their elected Councillors were seen as complicit in the debacle, and b) they were not confident in writing letters to the Council asking questions. So it is a sad indictment on local councillors that their constituents can't turn to them to represent them, and that the Council is seen as some unfathomable monster to communicate with.
So before writing a letter to the Council expressing the concerns of these people, I first spent about 30 minutes searching through public domain resources to find out about Ignis Energy and the CHaP tender. What I found after those few minutes was enough to set off some major alarm bells.
Why are the local councillors not applying that simple level of diligence to the activities that are going on under their nose which affect hundreds of their constituents and involves millions of taxpayers pounds ? You'd be better spending time on that rather than endless board meetings of pseudo-businesses.
As has been mentioned in threads on these forums, and in the press, I wrote to Steve Barron at the Highland Council with the issues and just got fobbed off with a "can't discuss for commercial reasons" answer. So I got the Groat onto the case and they contacted him the next day - suddenly he decides to talk about all these things that were too commercial to talk about the previous day.
This type of attitude by the Council is patronising and insulting to the people of Wick.
And why did the local councillors not now step in and pick up the baton and champion the cause for their electorate ?
Steve Barron was then compelled to do some damage limitation and wrote his infamous letter to the Groat in which we was chief cheerleader for Ignis Energy - assuring everyone that Ignis are wonderful people for the job, have no financial difficulties, etc. etc.
Three weeks later and the show is all over as Ignis are found out for the chancers that they are.
At best this shows the Council and councillors as gullible; at worst some people must wonder if there isn't corruption. If it is blindingly obvious to an average member of the public with only a small amount of the facts that this deal doesn't stack up, then why on earth was a senior member of Council staff talking up a private company in the press ?
If it wasn't for the fact that this farce with Ignis was exposed in the public domain over the past few weeks, then I fear that the Council will have quietly carried on with its obfuscation and signed a deal with a sham outfit, while local councillors representing local people sit on their hands.
It's a worrying trend that local councillors put the Council before their constituents - although I didn't follow it closely I detect that similar criticism was levelled at the cack-handed and patronising way in which the debate over the new High School was handled.
It is a sad day for democracy when it requires members of the public and the press to hold the Council to account, rather than for the local elected councillors to represent their people. To wade in now and say that you will make sure you get the best for the householders is far too late and loses you your credibility.
NickInTheNorth
23-May-11, 10:10
It would be good to see someone take a hold of this, and shake the life back into it. As dozy has stated that it could be resurrected at slightly higher cost than re-fitting out dated systems in each household then that sounds like the way forward.
Anyone fancy taking up the baton to drive it forwards!
secrets in symmetry
23-May-11, 11:37
Thanks for the summary of your proposal dozy. Would you do it yourself? If so, why won't the Council let you do it?
If you can't (or don't want to) do it, is there any other Caithness company that could do it?
Thanks for the summary of your proposal dozy? Would you do it yourself? If so, why won't the Council let you do it?
If you can't (or don't want to) do it, is there any other Caithness company that could do it?
There ARE other companies who can do this. However they rightly considered it unethical to lie in their bids to the Council to run it, and therefore will always be rejected in preference to outfits like Ignis who have a skill in appealing to the gullible Council staff who are like rabbits in headlights when dealing with things they know nothing about.
There are also a number of factors about the original system and the Council's conditions for operating it that make it unviable in its current form. You'd have to start afresh.
secrets in symmetry
23-May-11, 12:35
Are you saying that the infrastructure (building, pipework, etc) is not viable, or is it just the boiler?
Here is a simple suggestion from someone who has lived in houses with district heating schemes in place:
Install meters in all the houses on the scheme, people should pay for what they use, rather than a fixed weekly charge that doesn't cover the costs. Installation should be cheaper than installing new boilers in each house. Running one efficient big boiler should be more environmentally friendly than running 250 small ones. And eventually that one boiler could be changed to run on different fuels.
This is assuming that the council houses have things like heat exchangers and thermostats in place ... which they obiously should, or have I touched upon another technical failure?
well dozy i would support it all we need is a good spokesperson like yourself to speak up for all the people on this heating scheme
I think the articles i placed in the local paper and on the ORG are enough to show how the project should have been handled. If you are asking if it could still be rescued ,the answer is YES . The main framework is there ,the building ,the pipework and the homes .We just need the right equipment and Community support ,none off which is forthcoming . How much would it cost to get it running properly ,a little bit more than the £1.5 million the Council will be paying to refit fires to the ex CHaP customers .If the Council had listened at the start ,this mess would have been avoidable.The scheme could still be an asset to the community if the council would just stop lying ..
well dozy i would support it all we need is a good spokesperson like yourself to speak up for all the people on this heating scheme
I contacted the Highland Council and asked to speak to Ms Morris but was told she is not taking my calls .I would hope that the folk of Wick could get together and form an ACTION GROUP to see if the council will turn the project over to a Community run Charity .If that comes together i would be more than happy to help .I would like to think that some of the folk from the Org that collected the info on this fiasco would sit as Trustees and push the project forward .I know there are Engineers in the county that would also join in, to help get it up and running .It just needs the Council to hand over the project as soon as possible and help a little to get things moving .As far as being a spokesman i dont think the Council could stomach that with the Councillor's responsible for its failure still in place .I feel that the Council dont want it to work now, as they have transfered its failure to the engineering side of the project and not the council run board .
Time is running out and we can see from the new threads about CHaP that the council are in a rush to cover things over by contacting a few EX-CHAP customers .The oil bill from Pulteney Distillery must be digging a big hole in the council budget .As i say "if you need me i'm here "...
If you are planning to erect a gallows for those councillors ,i'm be there with a hammer and nails .Good thing is we can use the wood after the hanging is over to heat the ex-chap customers homes .It will be the first time we can say that the councillor's were of any use .
secrets in symmetry
24-May-11, 11:34
I've been loosely following the CHAP saga at a distance for a number of years. It does appear that dozy has been right all along, and that the Council have made a whole herd of pigs' ears of everything they've touched.
I don't know why the Council don't listen to dozy or what they have against him and his proposals because they never tell us.
From their actions and from what little information I found in the public domain, it is tempting to conclude that as far as dozy's proposals and the Ignis proposals are concerned, the Council (and certain Wick councillors in particular) are a bunch of incompetent, spiteful, and perhaps even corrupt worthless jobsworths who are simply trying to cover their backsides by blaming everyone and anything except themselves for this mess.
If this isn't true, and it may well not be, could someone (preferably from the Council) explain why it isn't true, and why they don't listen to dozy?
(I don't include Bill Fernie in the above proposition because he doesn't seem to have been involved, at least directly.)
I contacted the Highland Council and asked to speak to Ms Morris but was told she is not taking my calls .
The arrogance is staggering.
the Council (and certain Wick councillors in particular) are a bunch of incompetent, spiteful, and perhaps even corrupt worthless jobsworths who are simply trying to cover their backsides by blaming everyone and anything except themselves for this mess.....(I don't include Bill Fernie in the above proposition because he doesn't seem to have been involved, at least directly.)
Not getting involved and sitting on your hands when you know that your constituents are being taken for a ride is just as bad.
Margaret M.
24-May-11, 19:04
I don't know why the Council don't listen to dozy or what they have against him and his proposals because they never tell us
Dozy warned of failure during the early days of this project -- I remember reading his posts and getting a very uneasy feeling about the entire thing. Like you, I do not understand why the council paid no attention to his concerns. Charging ahead with a 14 million pound project without looking at voiced concerns from every angle, smacks of gross incompetence. This is a huge financial fiasco. Unbelievable!
Are you saying that the infrastructure (building, pipework, etc) is not viable, or is it just the boiler?
The plant end is unviable for technical reasons - "dozy" is your (wo)man to fill you on why that is, but it is mainly because the technology is not suited to the application - it was bought by councillors and council staff who had no clue what they were being sold, despite the fact that Councillor Smith and others took the taxpayers shilling to enjoy some 'fact finding visits' to distant lands.
The whole system is unviable for commercial reasons - you cannot install, run and maintain a system like this to so few homes for so little income. It needs economies of scale. Hence why the council were plotting to slip the Ignis deal through by paying millions on their behalf to extend the system to the new High School. But they got cold feet on that ruse when found out.
secrets in symmetry
27-May-11, 09:16
That all makes sense - unfortunately. Thanks.
ITS NOT DEAD,JUST STOPPED FOR A RETHINK. So start thinking ,or think of a restart..
I phoned Ms Morris at the Highland Council this morning and was told "She was in a meeting and had meetings all day " .I said i was phoning to talk about Caithness Heat and Power and the girl stated "She will get back to you if she has the time, but thats unlikely ",Sorry .. So the head in the sand is still ingrained in the Council way of thinking..
Is it time to call for a JUDICIAL INQUIRY into where and who got the money at CHaP. £14 million and it never generated one therm of heat someone, somewhere is sitting on a pot of cash ???? QUESTION ..
ITS NOT DEAD,JUST STOPPED FOR A RETHINK. So start thinking ,or think of a restart..
I phoned Ms Morris at the Highland Council this morning and was told "She was in a meeting and had meetings all day " .I said i was phoning to talk about Caithness Heat and Power and the girl stated "She will get back to you if she has the time, but thats unlikely ",Sorry .. So the head in the sand is still ingrained in the Council way of thinking..
Well its happened again ,i never did get that call from Ms Morris .The more they refuse to take my calls the deeper the hole they are digging for themselves .Any one up for the job of assistant CEO in the Council ,i think one just might be available soon...Sad thing is we where going to make an offer to take over the failed scheme ..
the council are a buch of cowards,i have heard nothing of what is going to happen yet,our local councillors are keeping very quiet.what are they doing for the people of wick?
the council are a buch of cowards,i have heard nothing of what is going to happen yet,our local councillors are keeping very quiet.what are they doing for the people of wick?
I've been told "they are all sitting in a room with seats make out of old violin's and a big bundle of expenses forms" dont no how true that is .
Now no one said they were on the fiddle .
the council are a buch of cowards,i have heard nothing of what is going to happen yet,our local councillors are keeping very quiet.what are they doing for the people of wick?
I had a communication exchange with Steve Barron last week. He replied immediately to one of my emails because he thought he'd be smart by pointing out a small ambiguity in one of my question.....so I immediately sent him back a corrected phrase and he's now back to the "it'll take 20 days to find out the information" approach.
I have also made an FoI request for copies of the minutes of the various meetings at which decisions were made. My insider in the Council tells me that Steve Barron and Michelle Morris and a few others are bitter at being publicly and internally humiliated - the thing is they brought the humiliation on themselves.
As for your local Councillors there is no point in involving them in this since, as Bill Fernie said in a previous message on here, they don't want to be associated with a failed project.
I had a communication exchange with Steve Barron last week. He replied immediately to one of my emails because he thought he'd be smart by pointing out a small ambiguity in one of my question.....so I immediately sent him back a corrected phrase and he's now back to the "it'll take 20 days to find out the information" approach.
I have also made an FoI request for copies of the minutes of the various meetings at which decisions were made. My insider in the Council tells me that Steve Barron and Michelle Morris and a few others are bitter at being publicly and internally humiliated - the thing is they brought the humiliation on themselves.
As for your local Councillors there is no point in involving them in this since, as Bill Fernie said in a previous message on here, they don't want to be associated with a failed project.
xva. Give the emailing thing ago and the phone over the last week as still get the NOT AVAILABLE response .. Will just have to go to the mountain.
Well todays the day that the golden goose has laid the egg. I have received a phone call from the GODS that told me that CHaP is no more. They did state that there is no mention of my name in any of the paperwork or files in matters relating to CHaP and no person EVER said the system was a non-starter. They have decided to rewrite history as they want it to be told and thats the end of the matter. So the service will be held shortly, once they can find someone with a big enough shovel. They stated they dont want a Community Charity to run it and never did ..I was told thats the END of it ..
Humerous Vegetable
07-Jun-11, 11:46
Private Eye have a "rotten boroughs" section in their magazine. http://www.private-eye.co.uk/sections.php?section_link=rotten_boroughs Maybe it's time to go international on this particular scandalous waste of public money by Highland Council?
The Council and Councillors are once again being very secretive about what was going on in the dealings between them and Ignis Energy.
Steve Barron, the Director of Housing at the Council, has once again responded to my questions by not properly answering them (more on that later). He is refusing to tell us why the Council made them a preferred bidder and why they were stripped of it at a later date. Can't decide if this is awkwardness or incompetence, but given that he was out of his depth in his previous job at Robertson's then the latter may well be the case.
In the meantime, the Council meeting on 12th May at which it was agreed to ditch Ignis and closedown CHaP has been published on the Council website. Here's an extract:
27. Caithness Heat and Power Ltd
There had been circulated to Members only Joint Report No. HC/11/11 dated 10 May 2011 by the Chief Executive, Depute Chief Executive & Director of Finance and Director of Housing & Property which provided an update on the outcome of procurement and the reinstatement option.
Decision
The Council AGREED:-
(i) that the procurement process should be terminated immediately without award
of contract and that the Preferred Bidder should be advised of the Council’s
decision;
(ii) that the Director of Housing & Property should be instructed to plan and
implement the reinstatement of independent heating systems in all of the
existing Council houses with a budget of £1.108m;
(iii) that a detailed report should be prepared on the implications of the obligations
and liabilities of Caithness Heat & Power Ltd to its customers. Subject to this
advice, the Depute Chief Executive & Director of Finance, together with the
Director of Housing & Property, should be instructed to work to meet any
Council liabilities in respect of the existing Housing Association and privately
owned houses;
(iv) that a report should be brought to the Council as soon as possible on the
confirmed budget and programme for such liabilities;
(v) that the Council should provide funding to operate the district heating system
until all of the existing customer houses had been offered the means to produce
heat and hot water independently; and
(vi) that the Chief Executive should ensure that the Council’s position was
communicated formally to all stakeholders and interested parties.
If you want to read the report (HC 11/11) that tells us why Ignis should be stripped of preferred bidder status, and why CHaP should be closed down, then you can't - because that is only available to Councillors but not us lowly taxpayers.
Of course there was a local Councillor present, a Mr B Fernie, so maybe he might be able to enlighten his constituents as to the gist of this report. Especially since in an earlier item in those same minutes he was appointed as a Director of CHaP.
23. Board of Caithness Heat and Power Ltd – New Director
Members were advised that, following the resignation of Councillor Katrina MacNab, there was currently a vacancy for a Director on the Board of Caithness Heat and Power Ltd.
Decision
The Council AGREED to appoint Councillor Bill Fernie to the Board of Caithness Heat and Power Ltd.
ref: http://www.highland.gov.uk/yourcouncil/committees/thehighlandcouncil/2011-05-12-hc-min.htm
(ii) that the Director of Housing & Property should be instructed to plan and
implement the reinstatement of independent heating systems in all of the
existing Council houses with a budget of £1.108m;
With 242 houses to reinstate, then that would mean that a maximum of £4,578 would be spent on reinstating each household.
With an emphasis on 'maximum' since there is no doubt overheads to come out of that as well.
So for those of you who are private users of the system, how does that stack up ?
I find it strange that the Council are making folk redundant from that services that give so much ,schools,OAP services and the disabled .Yet the Councillors and Senior Council Staff that lost the £14 million plus keep their jobs ,just goes to show that it pays to have on backbone .
Well it just goes to show that the council are a law unto themselves,anyone that performs that incompetently in any other job or loses a company £14 million+ would most certainly lose their jobs and be held accountable for what they did in court.
I find it strange that the Council are making folk redundant from that services that give so much ,schools,OAP services and the disabled .Yet the Councillors and Senior Council Staff that lost the £14 million plus keep their jobs ,just goes to show that it pays to have on backbone .
Well it just goes to show that the council are a law unto themselves,anyone that performs that incompetently in any other job or loses a company £14 million+ would most certainly lose their jobs and be held accountable for what they did in court.
And they clearly use all possible options to hide what they did.
I asked Steve Barron:
What knowledge and experience was there in Ignis Energy Ltd in the period between April 2010 and November 2010, when Mr Ibbetson and Mr Chappell were not Directors, that satisfied the Council's tender criteria and so allowed the company to be retained as reserve preferred bidder, and subsequently selected as main preferred bidder ?
He replied (after taking 20 days):
...the Council was satisfied with the knowledge and experience contained in the consortium led by Ignis.
So he didn't answer the question - he just said they were satisfied.
There is also this smokescreen of the 'consortium'. This only came out recently when pressed. Basically Ignis were telling the Council that they had this great consortium of companies who would help them deliver this. The Council clearly never questioned this or did any due diligence on it.
Ignis has now finally published some belated accounts and company returns for 2010. And it is revealing by what it doesn't reveal. It has exempted itself from showing any financial figures because by 2010 it was nothing other than a shell of a company that had £100 of shares in it. This was the company that Steve Barron trumpeted in his letter to the people of Wick that he had 'every confidence' in delivering a £17million project. So it now transpires that at the time he awarded them preferred bidder status the business had no assets, no cash and neither Chappell nor Ibbetson were Directors.
There is going to be a push now, first of all via the Chief Executive at Highland Council and then via the Scottish Public Services Ombudsman, to have this whole affair looked in to. That way, Steve Barron and others WILL be held accountable for incompetence.
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