View Full Version : Referendum
While were jumping up and down about the SNP / ConDems / New, Old, Newer Labour, Monster Raving Loony Party etc. we could possibly looking at a referendum.
So. Should we, shouldn't we? What IS independence?
I imagine independance to be just that. A nation state like hundreds of other nation states around the world. I dont like the idea. I think the futures about coming together rather than going apart. I could handle an independance with the Queen as the symbolic head of state. That would come before anything else.
As for your question about who should be able to vote. Your at it.
At it indeed. True scots???? That could account for the half of america canada and australia lol. And where is the sensible option of.... Don't know, will need to listen to arguments for and against and make a decision based on what i believe is best for Scotland?
Polls? Pay!!!!
Interesting; "Only true Scot's to vote, no incomers making decisions on Scotland's future." I would imagine there's a whole debate there about how we define a 'true Scot'. My ancestry is Norman French, 1066 and all that, so I guess it could be argued that I'm an incomer, :confused:eek:
From what I have seen on the forum most of the objectors to Independence seem to be English Incomers. I cant see why they are against leaving the UK as they have already taken the first step by leaving England!!!
C3.....:eek::confused;)
From what I have seen on the forum most of the objectors to Independence seem to be English Incomers. I cant see why they are against leaving the UK as they have already taken the first step by leaving England!!!
C3.....:eek::confused;)
I am a Scot born and bred, and I am agin independence in any form, so dont try bringing up the old chestnut of "white settlers"
I am a Scot born and bred, and I am agin independence in any form, so dont try bringing up the old chestnut of "white settlers"
I did say "most" of the objectors Golach, I am fully aware that there will be many Scots against leaving the UK.
C3....;)
I am English corrie and I'm well prepared to consider independence. I love Scotland and living here and if I am persuaded that independence is right for Scotland then I will vote for it.
Um, where's the option for Scottish Independence but to stay with/join the EU?
When I see a sound economic forecast as to how an independent Scotland would support it's self then I will give the matter some serious consideration.
When I see a sound economic forecast as to how an independent Scotland would support it's self then I will give the matter some serious consideration.
Exactly my thoughts!
Woah lot of misconceptions and logical fallacies here. I suppose if you repeat something enough times it gains mindshare and people start to believe it.
I'm going to wait for the official campaigns to make their opening statements and claims before I start supporting some and fighting others, but to clarify some things:
Scotland is the wealthiest region of the UK outside of London, if you remove London from the calculation it's wealthier than all of England; Scotland has a higher GDP per capita than any other region in the UK (source: statistics.gov.uk (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/gva1209.pdf) another source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Kingdom_nations_by_GDP_per_capita))
Scotland has a budget surplus (http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=315:independence-boost-as-scottish-fiscal-surplus-reaches-p35-billion&catid=1:politics&Itemid=2), actually it subsidises (http://www.newsnetscotland.com/economy/861-world-renowned-economist-says-scotland-subsidising-rest-of-uk) the UK according to a world leading non-UK economist.
Edinburgh is the most competitive city in the UK and has the fourth-largest financial sector in Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh#Economy), it's also bigger than Dubai and Washington DC. Plus there are modern industries such as those in "Silicon Glen", tourism and food and drink exports are a major force as well.
We haven't even touched on renewables (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_Scotland) or biotechnology, actually there's ton of other things I haven't touched on which relates to the financial stability of Scotland.
This (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/natural_resources/article3954031.ece) is probably also worth a read, though I tried to avoid mentioning oil at all.
EDIT: I'd like to make the point that the country isn't going to have to live on one resource forever, we can use revenue from current streams to fund R&D and develop other industries.
So if Scotland is so financially sound why are the recieving so much money from Westminster and bemoaning their lot about cuts?
So if Scotland is so financially sound why are the recieving so much money from Westminster and bemoaning their lot about cuts?
Scotland is financially sound if it was on it's own, Scotland doesn't have direct control of any money it generates all that goes into the UK economy and Scotland is given a very small amount of that back from Westmister.
EDIT: I suppose we get more money per captia than any other region of the UK because the government actually feels some guilt when it realises how much money Scotland generates for it, but even that extra in no way comes close to giving the money Scotland generates back to it.
Small amount of math: Scotland has a per captia (that's per person if anyone is wondering) GDP of £20,086 but we only get £8,623 per captia back from the UK government. This misses out several calculations that would make it worse, but ignoring them Scotland doesn't even get half of what it generates back.
BTW I'd argue that per capita figure should be higher and adjusted for several things - for example the £20,086 ignores oil completely (http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/Doc/923/0055551.pdf) - Some e-mails and reports from the Scotland Office - but I'm willing to use the official government numbers to avoid extra argument. When adjusted it's higher than the GDP of London or the entire England region.
From what I have seen on the forum most of the objectors to Independence seem to be English Incomers. I cant see why they are against leaving the UK as they have already taken the first step by leaving England!!!
C3.....:eek::confused;)
Fallacious and biased to the extreme.
I'm not ideologically wedded to the Union, if we have a sensible debate ( e.g. -flagwavingantiEnglishjingoism) and I thought the SNP put up a very well constructed argument that independence was in the best interest of Scotland then I will vote for it.
secrets in symmetry
07-May-11, 18:11
Small amount of math: Scotland has a per captia (that's per person if anyone is wondering) GDP of £20,086 but we only get £8,623 per captia back from the UK government. This misses out several calculations that would make it worse, but ignoring them Scotland doesn't even get half of what it generates back.Lol! I hope you didn't get that from Al Jazeera!
You seem to be mixing up the alleged £20,086 per capita GDP with the £8,623 you say we get back. The latter comes from per capita tax receipts not GDP.
Lol! I hope you didn't get that from Al Jazeera!
You seem to be mixing up the alleged £20,086 per capita GDP with the £8,623 you say we get back. The latter comes from per capita tax receipts not GDP.
Source: HM Government, Public Expenditure Statistical Analyses (PESA) 2007, chapter 9, table 9.2 - http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/pespub_index.htm
I'd scan it or tax a picture unfortunately I don't have a camera or scanner handy.
secrets in symmetry
07-May-11, 18:40
Yes, I see that the £8.6 figure is fine, but I still think you are comparing apples with oranges.
The £20K figure is GDP per capita, that is the amount of money "generated" per person in Scotland. Some fraction of that is paid in taxes to government. The fraction will be less than 50%, hopefully a good bit less that 50%. It will be a number of order £8K. The rest of the £20K we keep or spend ourselves as appropriate.
The £8.6K is the amount of government expenditure per capita in Scotland.
So the figures more or less match - as must be the case.
The debate starts there. Saying they "more or less match" isn't quite enough.
One factor missing from all the political toing and froing and economic disasters is the feelgood factor. If residents of Scotland decided to go for independance i'm sure there would be a different mind set amongst the people. Perhaps one of mild positivity compared to the doom and gloom we've lived with for a few years now. That's what makes stock markets flucuate. Confidence or lack of. There's nothing solid in confidence. You canna touch it or count it. It's only a feeling but it's more powerful than all the oil in the north sea. I'll be interested to see how the nationalists aim to achieve that.
John Little
07-May-11, 19:29
There is to my mind no doubt at all that Scotland could go it alone.
But the thing I do not wholly understand, the question Ducati brought up, is why she would wish to?
I'd be pleased if someone could answer that, just for my own understanding.
John Little
07-May-11, 19:36
At risk of life and limb...
Self respect implies a lack of it. It also implies a sense of inferiority.
From where I stand there is no reason for Scotland to feel that way. I regard the union as a mutually beneficial partnership of equals.
Hence I see no need to break it up.
Quite aside from stereotypes I like Scotland and the Scots and am part Scots. We are greater as the sum of our parts.
So why break the union up? Good hard reasons please.
weezer 316
07-May-11, 19:48
Woah lot of misconceptions and logical fallacies here. I suppose if you repeat something enough times it gains mindshare and people start to believe it.
I'm going to wait for the official campaigns to make their opening statements and claims before I start supporting some and fighting others, but to clarify some things:
Scotland is the wealthiest region of the UK outside of London, if you remove London from the calculation it's wealthier than all of England; Scotland has a higher GDP per capita than any other region in the UK (source: statistics.gov.uk (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/gva1209.pdf) another source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Kingdom_nations_by_GDP_per_capita))
Scotland has a budget surplus (http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=315:independence-boost-as-scottish-fiscal-surplus-reaches-p35-billion&catid=1:politics&Itemid=2), actually it subsidises (http://www.newsnetscotland.com/economy/861-world-renowned-economist-says-scotland-subsidising-rest-of-uk) the UK according to a world leading non-UK economist.
Edinburgh is the most competitive city in the UK and has the fourth-largest financial sector in Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh#Economy), it's also bigger than Dubai and Washington DC. Plus there are modern industries such as those in "Silicon Glen", tourism and food and drink exports are a major force as well.
We haven't even touched on renewables (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_Scotland) or biotechnology, actually there's ton of other things I haven't touched on which relates to the financial stability of Scotland.
This (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/natural_resources/article3954031.ece) is probably also worth a read, though I tried to avoid mentioning oil at all.
EDIT: I'd like to make the point that the country isn't going to have to live on one resource forever, we can use revenue from current streams to fund R&D and develop other industries.
Hypocritical nonsense. You dismissed the scottish office report showing scotland having a budget deficit only 9 out of the last 30 years i pointed you to on another thread, then quote some random site as evidence of a budget surplus!
You argument doesnt stack up and you know it. Spin to death, but in your heart of eharts you know we are better off as part of the union.
And if you want to talk about the economics of all of independece, I point you to the city of london, the single biggest source of scottish cash, and yet located in England. I assume we could ask for a part of london to be transferred north on a yes vote
At risk of life and limb...
Self respect implies a lack of it. It also implies a sense of inferiority.
From where I stand there is no reason for Scotland to feel that way. I regard the union as a mutually beneficial partnership of equals.
Hence I see no need to break it up.
Quite aside from stereotypes I like Scotland and the Scots and am part Scots. We are greater as the sum of our parts.
So why break the union up? Good hard reasons please.
Sounds like the rhetoric on the ConDem coalition but mostly coming from the tories now.
John Little
07-May-11, 19:56
Sounds like the rhetoric on the ConDem coalition but mostly coming from the tories now.
Actually I just asked a question.
But I really should know better by now than to ask questions of you. I shall refrain in future.
Actually I just asked a question.
But I really should know better by now than to ask questions of you. I shall refrain in future.
Are you a tory voter?
John Little
07-May-11, 20:02
My vote, along with any sexual perversions I may indulge in, is my business alone.
I asked a question. It is not loaded.
You have no answers.
My vote, along with any sexual perversions I may indulge in, is my business alone.
I asked a question. It is not loaded.
You have no answers.
Except that if independence goes ahead then each Scottish taxpayer is left with a £380 per year bill to clean up Dounreay.
John Little
07-May-11, 20:12
Oh Lord
Please bear witness that I have not sought this attention from an odious wee troll whose vapourings serve to do nothing but inspire my contempt.
I asked a question that I really would like some grounded and informed Scottish Nationalist to answer. Not because I wish to challenge them but because I truly wish to understand the impulse and forces that move them to wish to break up the union.
Further, I solemnly swear and affirm that I shall never again, whatever the provocation, respond to the self-serving vanity of this troll's posts.
I have no time for the man.
"Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering whale; to the last I grapple with thee; from hell’s heart I stab at thee; for hate’s sake I spit my last breath at thee. Sink all coffins and all hearses to one common pool! and since neither can be mine, let me then tow to pieces, while still chasing thee, though tied to thee, thou damned whale! Thus, I give up the spear!"
Please accept this as a very friendly reminder, nothing bad intended, no underhand intention, but your signature a wee bit out of date
(Ah pleased to see you took my advice)
Hypocritical nonsense. You dismissed the scottish office report showing scotland having a budget deficit only 9 out of the last 30 years i pointed you to on another thread, then quote some random site as evidence of a budget surplus!
You argument doesnt stack up and you know it. Spin to death, but in your heart of eharts you know we are better off as part of the union.
And if you want to talk about the economics of all of independece, I point you to the city of london, the single biggest source of scottish cash, and yet located in England. I assume we could ask for a part of london to be transferred north on a yes vote
The reason I didn't want to engage on that particular report is there has been a lot of controvery over it, plus I've been trying to avoid the oil issue, the waters have been muddied so to speak and there's a lot of resentment directed at Thatcher over it etc.
SECS (Senior Executive Civil Servants) have damned that report as Labour's scaremongering attempts to mislead the Scottish people about our real fiscal position, some of the things they highlighted were:
The report makes a £400m error in calculating public spending in Scotland, they even considered deffering publication because of other errors
The GERS report says nothing about the state of Scotland's fiscal position with Independence
They made this statement to the UK parliament I can look up the reference if you really want it. Here's a BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6267881.stm) story about it.
As I've said a couple of times before this is a principled issue not a pragmatic issue, I'm sure no not previous country decided on self determination by how much money it would make.
Can't we just leave this until we see what the pro and anti campaigns decide to argue it over.
Seeing as we have another thread debating independence I'll close this now and fire the results over there.
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