View Full Version : 4004 BC or 4.6 Billion years old?
rockchick
09-Sep-06, 14:21
I noticed an advert for a talk that is going to take place in Wick on Monday regarding the Biblical view of Creation vs the Big Bang Theory.
Wanting to be open-minded and listen to the other side (before shooting them down in flames perhaps!) I logged onto the website www.answersingenesis.org (http://www.answersingenesis.org) and read some of what they have to say. Dear Lord, who comes up with this stuff?
I'm personally of the opinion that the Bible is great as a religious guide, perhaps even a social/morals guide (well, the New Testament perhaps) but as a fount of scientific literature it doesn't really hold water.
But...does anyone else have an opinion on the subject? Was the Earth created in 4004 BC and the Bible is Absolute? or is there some wiggle room in interpretation, and the earth just may be a bit older than 6010 years?
So the Earth is only 6000 years old?
Codswallop and blind denial that creation is just a story.....
martin macdonald
09-Sep-06, 15:10
i believe that the bible is absolute truth from God from start of genesis to the end of revelation. i would believe God and trust God first and foremost.God does no tell lies. unlike men:Razz Jesus is the answer....
j4bberw0ck
09-Sep-06, 15:25
There are a distressing number of folk who do believe the Bible, word for word. Whether it includes these people (http://www.christianexodus.org/index.php?module=PostWrap&page=faith) isn't 100% clear, but they are a Christian fundamentalist group who want Christians to relocate to South Carolina and eventually force a secession from the USA, running the State in accordance with the Ten Commandments. The USA seems to be the world focus for Christian fundamentalists, which is rather a worry in itself. Read some of the stuff on that site and thery're not a million miles away from the Taliban.
The problem a good many people have, I think, is that "God made the world in 7 days in 4004BC" is just as good an explanation as (and I'm simplifying here before any experts on Hilbert Space leap in and cuff me round the ear - again :lol: ) "Once upon a time there was Nothing. Then from Nowhere came this massive explosion, so big it forced the expansion of the universe at speeds greater than the speed of light, and all the matter that we see and energy that we measure, came into existence from Nowhere at that point. Oh and BTW, outside the Universe as we see it, there's Nothing. It doesn't exist. The concept has no meaning". Both versions have a sort of "fairytale" element to them, especially when you start getting to non-baryonic matter (stuff we can't perceive, it isn't made of atoms) which the latest theories suggest makes up 74% of the Universe. So it's there, but we can't perceive it. Hmmmm.
I used to debate this on an American forum with people who believe the Bible as literal truth. Some are quite scary people and seem happy to dispense with non-believers altogether, by various means. They account for the fossil record and strata, for instance, with an analogy about a large tub of water and a pile of soil, rock, bones and so on. Put the large pile in the large tub of water and stir it vigorously, then let it settle. You'll find the different types of earth, the bones and the rocks all tend to settle out in strata.
Why, I wonder, would an all powerful God, creating his latest plaything, feel the need to create bones of things like dinosaurs that never existed, then, and arrange for analytical tools to be developed that show their ages as greater than the age of the Universe? Ah, say (some of) the fundamentalists..... they did exist but didn't get on Noah's Ark and so perished, hence the water, the stirring, and so on. The analytical tools? Ah well, they're just plain wrong. Scientists don't understand, see.
Probably just as well for Noah that he didn't have several hundred tons of rampaging meat-eaters running around his boat, which in any event, must have been well beyond the upper engineering and size limits for boats constructed of wood. And he built it on his own? Hoooo-boy.
Well, I know where my faith lies, and it isn't with Bishop Usher and his 4004BC figure. I've tried to read AnswersinGenesis before now and whilst some is well written, lots more is dross (IMHO). If I've read Scaraben's posts correctly, you might find he's on the side of the good Bishop, so once he's sorted uploading images he might have some input into this.....
well i think people would have to be extremely niave to think that the world was created in 7 days and that there was no such thing as evolution. After all the bible is peoples interpretations and how much has been lost or made up in the translations over the years???
I am sorry if this offends anyone it is entirely my own opinion.
Since, according to the Genesis account, the sun and moon were created during the fourth day, how do we know how long each creative "day" was??
martin macdonald
09-Sep-06, 15:47
the late charles darwin was a very clever man. i read his theory on evolution. he became a christian later on in life and believed jesus and his truth:Razz
the late charles darwin was a very clever man. i read his theory on evolution. he became a christian later on in life and believed jesus and his truth:Razz
I heard that was an urban myth. But I'll stand corrected if I'm wrong.....
martin macdonald
09-Sep-06, 15:52
I heard that was an urban myth. But I'll stand corrected if I'm wrong.....
:Razz hi! ye sit is true, u can read all about it in christianity today.
j4bberw0ck
09-Sep-06, 15:57
Since, according to the Genesis account, the sun and moon were created during the fourth day, how do we know how long each creative "day" was??
Uh-uh, Saveman....... can't have it both ways. Either the Bible is the literal truth, or it's a symbolic account of how things came to be, and therefore not literal truth. There's no "wiggle room" as rock chick put it, on, say, homosexuality being an abomination, oron worshipping "false gods".
This is a well-circulated letter poking fun at several Biblical pronouncements. (http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/drlaura.asp)
And still good for a chuckle, now and again.
Uh-uh, Saveman....... can't have it both ways. Either the Bible is the literal truth, or it's a symbolic account of how things came to be, and therefore not literal truth. There's no "wiggle room" as rock chick put it, on, say, homosexuality being an abomination, oron worshipping "false gods".
This is a well-circulated letter poking fun at several Biblical pronouncements. (http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/drlaura.asp)
And still good for a chuckle, now and again.
In my grandfathers day there was a lot more faith in religion in general. It's really not surprising that situation has changed. That is the literal truth.
(BTW my grandfathers day wasn't just 24 hours long)
Mister Squiggle
09-Sep-06, 16:15
Hi Rockchick - after reading your post I logged onto Wikipedia and entered "creationism" as a matter of interest. The mind boggles (or at least mine did) at the sheer number of theories in support of creationism, all of which you could examine, pick apart, have a good laugh at etc for your talk. Anyway, this might help (or at least serve to confuse you even further or make you throw your arms up in despair) so take a look.
I didn't get as far as looking at evolution - to be quite frank, I was scared to even start in case I ended up in some kind of existential moment of angst.
Anyway, where is this debate? Is it open to the general public? Good luck!
If the Bible were absolute truth slavery would be legal, a womans worth would be measured in livestock and she would be considered "unclean" at certain times of the month. Any man would be able to sell his daughter's into marriage or worse. Eating certain meats and sea food would be an abomination worthy perhaps of stoning. Stoning would be an acceptable means of punishment for many crimes, ranging from working on the sabbath, through adultery, cursing (it would take a pile of stones bigger than Ben Nevis to deal with all the sinners for this in the UK) and to homosexuality. Farmers rotating c rops would be contravening the bible's knowledge. You would be sinning to wear any modern clothes: not only are fibres mixed in the very cloth, but so many clothes nowadays are unisex. To add to this, all woman wearing pants and all men wearing kilts would be commiting mortal sins.:lol:
If you are to take the bible literally then to maintain consistency you have to take it as a whole ( after all, if you consider it to be the immutable and all knowing word of God, he is not going to be right about some things and wrong about others, now is He?). If you are going to read it as a book written by men about what they believe God is, well then... to err is human ( and forgive is divine);)
The man ( Or the woman ! ) without the Spirit will not except the things that come from the Spirit of God. That is a known fact. So until such time as one recognises one's NEED of God in their lives and prayerfully invites the Lord and His spirit into their lives, this "SPIRITUAL BLINDNESS" will mean that they cannot see any truth in the Bible. Hence we have a situation where the CREATED is telling the CREATOR where He has made mistakes when He gave us His written word, the Bible ! I challenge the aforesaid to proove otherwise by genuinely and sincerely starting their search for God by acknowledging that he/she is aware of his/her faults and sins and is willing to repent from them and issue an invitation to the Lord to come into their heart , prayerfully (However inarticulate that prayer may be )
I assure you that you will quickly realise that you have just taken the biggest step in your entire life.!
THEN YOU WILL UNDERSTAND, THEN YOU WILL SEE.
Hi Folks
Sorry I aint one of those folks that sees the Bible as cast-iron fact, fills a need for some I supose, I prefer to believe carbon-dating which might not be absolutly precise as to the age of the earth, but a wee bit better than down to working out the age so and so begat so and so and they begat et.el
I'm a Humanist - and if you aren't sure what that is:
Humanism is the belief that we can live good lives without religious or superstitious beliefs. Humanists make sense of the world using reason, experience and shared human values. We seek to make the best of the one life we have by creating meaning and purpose for ourselves. We take responsibility for our actions and work with others for the common good.
What humanists believe;
Humanism is an approach to life based on humanity and reason - humanists recognise that moral values are properly founded on human nature and experience alone. Our decisions are based on the available evidence and our assessment of the outcomes of our actions, not on any dogma or sacred text.
Humanism encompasses atheism and agnosticism ‑ but is an active and ethical philosophy far greater than these negative responses to religion.
Humanists believe in individual rights and freedoms ‑ but believe that individual responsibility, social cooperation and mutual respect are just as important.
Humanists believe that people can and will continue to find solutions to the world's problems ‑ so that quality of life can be improved for everyone.
Humanists are positive ‑ gaining inspiration from our lives, art and culture, and a rich natural world.
Humanists believe that we have only one life ‑ it is our responsibility to make it a good life, and to live it to the full..
So there you are...
j4bberw0ck
09-Sep-06, 17:33
The man ( Or the woman ! ) without the Spirit will not except the things that come from the Spirit of God. That is a known fact.
I see the difficulties you have with uploading images doesn't extend to using the text formatting tools [lol] .
So, Scaraben, is the world 6000 years old, or several billion?
Is the Bible literal truth in all respects?
Since, according to the Genesis account, the sun and moon were created during the fourth day, how do we know how long each creative "day" was??
Quite, Saveman. To us a lifetime is on average around 75 years; to a mayfly it is 24 hours. The mayfly squeezes all its life experiences into a 24 hour slot and we take 75 years to do the same. The 'day' referred to in the bible belongs to another entity with a different time scale to hours - one that we cannot comprehend. Also, people were a lot less educated in those days, having no concept of millennia.
rockchick
09-Sep-06, 17:41
I challenge the aforesaid to proove otherwise ...THEN YOU WILL UNDERSTAND, THEN YOU WILL SEE.
Which truth would you like me to believe?
God is satisfied with his works (Gen 1:31) God is dissatisfied with his works. (Gen 6:6)
God dwells in chosen temples (2 Chron 7:12,16) God dwells not in temples (Acts 7:48)
God dwells in light (Tim 6:16) God dwells in darkness (1 Kings 8:12/ Ps 18:11/ Ps 97:2)
God is seen and heard (Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
Ex 24:9-11) God is invisible and cannot be heard (John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16)
God is tired and rests (Ex 31:17/ Jer 15:6) God is never tired and never rests (Is 40:28)
God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things (Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21)
God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all things (Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8)
God knows the hearts of men (Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3) God tries men to find out what is in their heart
(Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12)
God is all powerful (Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26) God is not all powerful (Judg 1:19)
God is unchangeable (James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19)
God is changeable (Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/ Ex 33:1,3,17,14)
God is just and impartial (Ps 92:15/ Gen 18:25/ Deut 32:4/ Rom 2:11/ Ezek 18:25)
God is unjust and partial (Gen 9:25/ Ex 20:5/ Rom 9:11-13/ Matt 13:12)
God is the author of evil (Lam 3:38/ Jer 18:11/ Is 45:7/ Amos 3:6/ Ezek 20:25)
God is not the author of evil (1 Cor 14:33/ Deut 32:4/ James 1:13)
God gives freely to those who ask (James 1:5/ Luke 11:10)
God withholds his blessings and prevents men from receiving them (John 12:40/ Josh 11:20/ Is 63:17)
God is to be found by those who seek him (Matt 7:8/ Prov 8:17)
God is not to be found by those who seek him (Prov 1:28)
God accepts human sacrifices (2 Sam 21:8,9,14/ Gen 22:2/ Judg 11:30-32,34,38,39)
God forbids human sacrifice (Deut 12:30,31)
God tempts men (Gen 22:1/ 2 Sam 24:1/ Jer 20:7/ Matt 6:13)
God tempts no man (James 1:13)
God's attributes are revealed in his works.(Rom 1:20)
God's attributes cannot be discovered (Job 11:7/ Is 40:28)
There is but one God (Deut 6:4)
There is a plurality of gods (Gen 1:26/ Gen 3:22/ Gen 18:1-3/ 1 John 5:7)
Robbery commanded (Ex 3:21,22/ Ex 12:35,36)
Robbery forbidden (Lev 19:13/ Ex 20:15)
Lying approved and sanctioned (Josh 2:4-6/ James 2:25/ Ex 1:18-20/ 1 Kings 22:21,22)
Lying forbidden (Ex 20:16/ Prov 12:22/ Rev 21:8)
Killing commanded (Ex 32:27)
Killing forbidden (Ex 20:13)
The blood-shedder must die (Gen 9:5,6)
The blood-shedder must not die (Gen 4:15)
The making of images forbidden (Ex 20:4)
The making of images commanded (Ex 25:18,20)
Slavery and oppression ordained (Gen 9:25/ Lev 25:45,46/ Joel 3:8)
Slavery and oppression forbidden (Is 58:6/ Ex 22:21/ Ex 21:16/ Matt 23:10)
martin macdonald
09-Sep-06, 18:05
the main truth is. do you believe that jesus christ was the son of God and he died for sinners like you and me and if we repent of our sin and trust him we will have life to the full. and then eternal life with him forever:Razz dont just exsist in this world. live for jesus:lol:
Rockchick,
Your "Which truth would you like me to believe?" was EXCELLENT!!!!
So until such time as one recognises one's NEED of God in their lives and prayerfully invites the Lord and His spirit into their lives, this "SPIRITUAL BLINDNESS" will mean that they cannot see any truth in the Bible
I have no need for a god and the only spirit that comes into my life is the occasional wee dram. You'll be calling us infidels next....
rockchick,
Hope you didn't waste too much of your day digging that load of contradictions up! :D
Martin,
"do you believe that jesus christ was the son of God and he died for sinners like you and me and if we repent of our sin and trust him we will have life to the full. and then eternal life with him forever"
An emphatic NO!!!....
j4bberw0ck
09-Sep-06, 18:42
Also, people were a lot less educated in those days, having no concept of millennia.
So, we're back to the Bible being a symbolic account written for uneducated people, which per se rules out literal truth........
Where does that leave, say, Jehovah's Witnesses?
martin macdonald
09-Sep-06, 18:50
oh! but i do beleive that jesus christ died for me so that i can have life to the full, and i will be with him in paradise when i die:lol:
martin macdonald
09-Sep-06, 18:55
I noticed an advert for a talk that is going to take place in Wick on Monday regarding the Biblical view of Creation vs the Big Bang Theory.
Wanting to be open-minded and listen to the other side (before shooting them down in flames perhaps!) I logged onto the website www.answersingenesis.org (http://www.answersingenesis.org) and read some of what they have to say. Dear Lord, who comes up with this stuff?
I'm personally of the opinion that the Bible is great as a religious guide, perhaps even a social/morals guide (well, the New Testament perhaps) but as a fount of scientific literature it doesn't really hold water.
But...does anyone else have an opinion on the subject? Was the Earth created in 4004 BC and the Bible is Absolute? or is there some wiggle room in interpretation, and the earth just may be a bit older than 6010 years? may i take this oppertunity to wish you all the very best on monday in your search for truth.
Good for you - let's just hope that a spelling test isn't a Paradise entry requirement...
Martin,
"do you believe that jesus christ was the son of God and he died for sinners like you and me and if we repent of our sin and trust him we will have life to the full. and then eternal life with him forever"
An emphatic NO!!!....
Apart from the fact that I totally agree with you, how can you be so sure? Ye'll be in for a shock if Martin is right.
martin macdonald
09-Sep-06, 19:01
Good for you - let's just hope that a spelling test isn't a Paradise entry requirement... ha! ha! no just a simple faith in jesus thats all[lol]
Good for you - let's just hope that a spelling test isn't a Paradise entry requirement...
Moderators should be more understanding, should they not. Or is it now de rigeur on the board to be immaculate spellers.[evil]
cuddlepop
09-Sep-06, 19:24
I rather enjoyed Rock Chicks :truths : too.:Razz
martin macdonald
09-Sep-06, 19:29
I rather enjoyed Rock Chicks :truths : too.:Razz they are not truths they are the scriptures being twisted to look like the truth:Razz hope my spelling is okay.
j4bberw0ck
09-Sep-06, 20:04
is it now de rigeur on the board to be immaculate spellers.[evil]
So long as it's not de rigeur to be immaculately conceived........:lol:
oldmarine
09-Sep-06, 20:29
I noticed an advert for a talk that is going to take place in Wick on Monday regarding the Biblical view of Creation vs the Big Bang Theory.
Wanting to be open-minded and listen to the other side (before shooting them down in flames perhaps!) I logged onto the website www.answersingenesis.org (http://www.answersingenesis.org) and read some of what they have to say. Dear Lord, who comes up with this stuff?
I'm personally of the opinion that the Bible is great as a religious guide, perhaps even a social/morals guide (well, the New Testament perhaps) but as a fount of scientific literature it doesn't really hold water.
But...does anyone else have an opinion on the subject? Was the Earth created in 4004 BC and the Bible is Absolute? or is there some wiggle room in interpretation, and the earth just may be a bit older than 6010 years?
Years ago Bishop Unger wrote that the beginning was in 4004 BC. However, it has since been challenged and stated to be incorrect. I, in my own mind, believe in a big bang theory. When the Lord stated "Let it be so" when He created the heavens and earth, I believe it happened immediately and it was so. Thus, my interpretation of a "big bang" and it happened. I certainly would not try to place a date on that event.
oldmarine
09-Sep-06, 20:35
the late charles darwin was a very clever man. i read his theory on evolution. he became a christian later on in life and believed jesus and his truth:Razz
Thank you for Martin for revealing this truth about Charles Darwin. So few people know about this fact in Darwin's life.
Apart from the fact that I totally agree with you, how can you be so sure? Ye'll be in for a shock if Martin is right.
To be honest I don't care - I am not devoting my life to the worship of someone /thing on the off chance I can spend eternity sitting on a cloud.
And if Martin is right he'll have the last laugh - at least he spotted my little joke about the spelling. But if he is a true christian then he will say forgive him heavenly father, he's not a bad chap really - he's never murdered anyone in the name of religion and he's handy with a vacuum....
Gleber2 and the topic of forum spelling correctness: 46307 & 81714...
I remember once reading that in New York State there were some 2.5 million various laws on the statute books, along came a young preacher and challenged the legal system by saying, " there is no need for all those laws just live by the ten comandments", a bunch of legal eagles got together to put paid to his statement , anyway it only turns out to be true apparently the 2.5 million laws would be unnescessary if people followed the ten comandments. They even went on to suggest that any future additions or amendments to their laws would be unnescessary due to the existance of the ten comandments. I find this to be very sobering, the fact that something written in the time of moses has resulted in rendering all written law obsolete.....
pultneytooner
09-Sep-06, 21:10
In a few thousand years people will be following lord of the rings[lol]
oldmarine
09-Sep-06, 21:15
In a few thousand years people will be following lord of the rings[lol]
In a few thousand years, at the rate it is now growing, Islim (Muslim) will be the predominate religion. I pray I will be proven wrong.
pultneytooner
09-Sep-06, 21:22
In a few thousand years, at the rate it is now growing, Islim (Muslim) will be the predominate religion. I pray I will be proven wrong.
It's currently has the second biggest following next to christianity, the next biggest following (non religious), is theistic.
I don't think we need to worry as we'll all be dead.
j4bberw0ck
09-Sep-06, 21:59
In a few thousand years, at the rate it is now growing, Islim (Muslim) will be the predominate religion. I pray I will be proven wrong.
It's only your timescale is wrong, oldmarine. Within 20 years in the UK the majority of 20 - 25 year olds will be Muslims.
I see that as a problem, given the recent track record of many young Muslims.
I find this to be very sobering, the fact that something written in the time of moses has resulted in rendering all written law obsolete.....
maverick, you're doing it again, leaping from one single statement to a generality that's all-inclusive. The reason ten commandments cover all bases is because they're so general and so, open to interpretation.
The reason it needs (if indeed it does) 2 million + laws to cover for them is because they're highly specific and designed for interpretation by a court of law, not a vicar. Or a mullah.
I think j4bberw0ck, that part of the conclusion was that if people lived by the ten comandments, then we wouldn't need courts of law.
oldmarine
09-Sep-06, 23:21
I think j4bberw0ck, that part of the conclusion was that if people lived by the ten comandments, then we wouldn't need courts of law.
In the USA courts of law do not recognize the ten commandments. That does create a problem.
oldmarine
09-Sep-06, 23:27
It's only your timescale is wrong, oldmarine. Within 20 years in the UK the majority of 20 - 25 year olds will be Muslims.
I see that as a problem, given the recent track record of many young Muslims.
I agree with your summation of the shorter period of time in the UK. In fact, I believe that the USA may not be too far behind.
In the USA courts of law do not recognize the ten commandments. That does create a problem.
I find that quite strange oldmarine, that the american people( your court cases are i believe refered to as the people v whoever) can discount the ten comandments, yet on every dollar bill are the words, ( in god we trust ). ???
j4bberw0ck
09-Sep-06, 23:31
I see. And how would you see this ideal state of affairs happening?
oldmarine
09-Sep-06, 23:46
I find that quite strange oldmarine, that the american people( your court cases are i believe refered to as the people v whoever) can discount the ten comandments, yet on every dollar bill are the words, ( in god we trust ). ???
I can understand your confusion. In fact, this has become a political issue between liberal democrats and conservative republicans and various others in the political arena. Our original constitution and by-laws, I thought were explicit about this; however, the ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union) I call them the "Anti Christian Liberal Union" has been attempting to change the original interpretation with great success. They are the most successful lawyers group in the USA. The fight has been going on for many years now. The ACLU to date has been unsuccessful on getting the words (in god we trust) removed from the dollar bill plus other places; however, they have not given up but keep on trying.
I think in most political arena's there is some link to religion, and in most western countries that religion is christian based. I have noticed that POTUS swears an oath before god before being installed in office. Here in britian Her Majesty the Queen is the head of the church and most of the Prime ministers have all professed the christian faith. As j4bberw0ck has pointed out the muslim faith is on the up and within a short number of years could well become the predominant faith here in the uk. The problems that may arise are things like, radical changes in law,sweeping reforms and possibly desolving the monarchy. I dont think that any muslim faith would stand for HM Queen being head of the mosque. In america they certianly wouldn't stand for in god we trust on the dollar bill.
I think in most political arena's there is some link to religion, and in most western countries that religion is christian based. I have noticed that POTUS swears an oath before god before being installed in office. Here in britian Her Majesty the Queen is the head of the church and most of the Prime ministers have all professed the christian faith. As j4bberw0ck has pointed out the muslim faith is on the up and within a short number of years could well become the predominant faith here in the uk. The problems that may arise are things like, radical changes in law,sweeping reforms and possibly desolving the monarchy. I dont think that any muslim faith would stand for HM Queen being head of the mosque. In america they certianly wouldn't stand for in god we trust on the dollar bill.
Maverick, a small point HM Lizz is only the head of the English Kirk, not the Scottish
Maverick, a small point HM Lizz is only the head of the English Kirk, not the Scottish
Yes golach your quite right, she is indeed
Hi Folks
This reference to God on US bank notes brings to mind the 'God is with us' ("Gott mit uns") engraved on the German Army's belt buckles, Hitler Youth offered a prayer to the Fuhrer and God-belief was a requirement for membership of the SS.
Makes you think don't it?
Dreadnought
10-Sep-06, 09:41
Not one single word of the Bible was written by a 'God'. The entire thing was written by men. Primitive men, living in primitive times, with primitive superstitions.
All deities were created by the imagination of man to explain what he could not comprehend or explain.
In the earliest of times man scraped to survive as a hunter gatherer, so his deities were animal 'Gods'. Then as he became more agricultural man created earth, wind, sun and rain 'Gods' to ensure good crops. Gradually man became the main controlling influence in his environment, so his 'Gods' became human.
Dreadnought
10-Sep-06, 09:45
Ps. I recently watched a documentary about a newly found Dead Sea scroll. On translation it turned out to be the long lost first page of the Bible. It reads:
'All characters and events portrayed in this novel are fictitious. Any resemblance to any person living or dead is entirely coincidental.'
Dreadnought
10-Sep-06, 10:00
the main truth is. do you believe that jesus christ was the son of God and he died for sinners like you and me and if we repent of our sin and trust him we will have life to the full. and then eternal life with him forever:Razz dont just exsist in this world. live for jesus:lol:
So where does that leave the 900 million Hindus, 20 million Taoists, 360 million Buddists, 1.3 billion Moslems, 14 million Jews, 12.2 million Mormons, 394 million Chinese religious followers (Dualistic yin and yang; mythological beings and folk deities), 23 million Sikhs, all the other religions and the 1.1 billion Atheists?
rockchick
10-Sep-06, 10:17
may i take this oppertunity to wish you all the very best on monday in your search for truth.
I think that any religion would be very hard-pressed to convince me that all the evidence relating to the geological record is wrong. There are so many instances of events that simply could not have taken place in the time-span given, from volcanic eruptions to sedimentary emplacements above unconformaties. I believe the Flood happened when it did; I even buy that Joseph and Mary travelled to Bethlehem for the census, even though no evidence of this census is available (why is that, anyways? Romans kept meticulous records) But sorry, I don't buy that dinosaurs were dragons that died 5000 years ago.
There are so many inconsistencies in the Bible, that it is impossible to accept it as literal truth. I posted a page of these - I have over 20 pages worth. Sorry, I refuse to accept that it is right to sell my daughter into sexual slavery, that a rape victim must marry her rapist and not have the right to divorce him until he chooses to set her free, etc. etc. etc. Why should I choose to live my life under rules like that, when they go against everything I believe to be right?
Or do you choose to ignore those parts of the Bible you don't agree with?
martin macdonald
10-Sep-06, 16:59
religion wont convince anyone. but a childlike faith in jesus will:Razz
pultneytooner
10-Sep-06, 20:02
religion wont convince anyone. but a childlike faith in jesus will:Razz
could you answer the question?
So where does that leave the 900 million Hindus, 20 million Taoists, 360 million Buddists, 1.3 billion Moslems, 14 million Jews, 12.2 million Mormons, 394 million Chinese religious followers (Dualistic yin and yang; mythological beings and folk deities), 23 million Sikhs, all the other religions and the 1.1 billion Atheists?
could you answer the question?
Where they not the other 11 tribes that escaped from Egypt wi' Moses and turned right at the other side of the Red Sea?
martin macdonald
10-Sep-06, 20:08
the answer my friend is simple. if they are not trusting jesus christ they face eternity in hell.
the answer my friend is simple. if they are not trusting jesus christ they face eternity in hell.
So a God of love will burn people in a fiery hell forever?
martin macdonald
10-Sep-06, 20:18
that is correct, GOD is love not a softie his word is his bond. people have a choice accept jesus or dont accept jesus[ heaven or hell] trust him before its to late..
pultneytooner
10-Sep-06, 20:20
the answer my friend is simple. if they are not trusting jesus christ they face eternity in hell.
So your god would have people burn for eternity for having different views, not a very benevolent or understanding god, is he?
pultneytooner
10-Sep-06, 20:23
Where they not the other 11 tribes that escaped from Egypt wi' Moses and turned right at the other side of the Red Sea?
Maybe martin would be good enough to tell us my friend.
martin macdonald
10-Sep-06, 20:27
god makes it clear in his word that if you dont repent and trust jesus his son, the worlds saviour. then you will perish forever in hell. jesus has done everything for us all we have to do is trust[ you cant work your way in to heaven or try and be good thats the false teaching of religion]
So if our child disobeys us, we should stick their hand in the fire?
god makes it clear in his word that if you dont repent and trust jesus his son, the worlds saviour. then you will perish forever in hell. jesus has done everything for us all we have to do is trust[ you cant work your way in to heaven or try and be good thats the false teaching of religion]
Where does he make that clear in his word??
Doesn't the Bible say the dead know nothing?
martin macdonald
10-Sep-06, 20:35
you cant be a child of god untill you trust jesus:cool: no child of god will burn in hell.
Cedric Farthsbottom III
10-Sep-06, 21:13
Where was it ever said that heaven was good and hell was bad?
pultneytooner
10-Sep-06, 21:15
god makes it clear in his word that if you dont repent and trust jesus his son, the worlds saviour. then you will perish forever in hell. jesus has done everything for us all we have to do is trust[ you cant work your way in to heaven or try and be good thats the false teaching of religion]
So everybody can burn in hell if they don't conform to your beliefs?
Does martin macdonald know this!?
It's on todays BBC.co.uk web news (so must be true)
A Japanese legend claims that Jesus escaped Jerusalem and made his way to Aomori in Japan where he became a rice farmer. Christians say the story is nonsense. However, a monument there known as the Grave of Christ attracts curious visitors from all over the world.
To reach the Grave of Christ or Kristo no Hakka as it is known locally, you need to head deep into the northern countryside of Japan, a place of paddy fields and apple orchards. Halfway up a remote mountain surrounded by a thicket of bamboo lies a mound of bare earth marked with a large wooden cross. Most visitors peer at the grave curiously and pose in front of the cross for a photograph before heading off for apple ice cream at the nearby cafe. But some pilgrims leave coins in front of the grave in thanks for answered prayers.The cross is a confusing symbol because according to the local legend, Jesus did not die at Calvary. This place was taken by one of his brothers, who for some reason is now buried by his side in Japan. The story goes that after escaping Jerusalem, Jesus made his way across Russia and Siberia to Aomori in the far north of Japan where he became a rice farmer, married, had a family and died peacefully at the age of 114. A villager hinted that I might be able to meet one of Jesus' descendents - a Mr Sajiro Sawaguchi, who is now in his 80s. His family owns the land on which the grave stands and his house is at the foot of the mountain. I set off to find him but was told he was too ill to speak to me.
Jesus' descendant? However, his grandson Junichiro Sawaguchi did agree to talk. Was I about to meet someone with a true touch of the divine? The tubby middle-aged gentleman in glasses who spoke to me did not seem particularly Messianic. "Actually, my family are Buddhists not Christians," said Mr Sawaguchi. "And I don't claim to be a descendent of Jesus although I know some people have said my grandfather is connected to the legend. However, when I was a young child, my mother drew the sign of a cross upon my forehead as a symbol of good fortune," he told me. Certainly the cross has brought good fortune to the villagers, who make money from the visitors and the media who seek out the grave. It has become the region's only internationally recognised tourist attraction. However the legend of Jesus the rice farmer does not stretch back very far. It only began in the 1930s with the discovery of what were claimed to be ancient Hebrew documents detailing Jesus' life and death in Japan. Those documents have now mysteriously disappeared and the grave has never been excavated. I asked a village official, Masaoki Sato, if he realised that the grave might cause offence to Christians who believe in Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection. "We're not saying that the story is true or what is written in the Bible is wrong," he politely explained. "All we are saying is that this is a very interesting old legend. It's up to the people who come here to decide how they interpret it."
Ritual and tradition
Many Japanese find it hard to make sense of Christianity. Schools are banned from teaching any religion and people are generally more interested in ritual and tradition than theology. However, Christian-style weddings are enormously popular. They are often held in hotels which have special chapels, complete with crosses and stained glass windows. Foreign students are sometimes hired to play the part of the priest, although the whole event has no official sanction from any church. Churchy-looking buildings have other entertainment purposes too. In the city of Nagoya, I went to a theme restaurant where diners could choose either to have dinner in the chapel, seated on pews and surrounded by paintings of Jesus and the saints, or on the floor below, which is decorated like a prison, complete with metal bars around each table. Only 1% of Japan is officially Christian. However, there are some lively churches, such as the New Life Ministry in Tokyo. When I arrived on Sunday afternoon it was packed with young worshippers, clapping along to songs of praise and raising their hands in joy. I met Pastor Shintaro Watanabe, who was dressed in a floral Hawaiian shirt and had an almost permanent smile on his face. Wasn't he shocked by the legend of Jesus' grave? He laughed and said it was just a silly story which caused him no particular offence. "I suppose that many Japanese people feel respect for Jesus and the Bible," said the pastor. "The legend ties in with that. Perhaps it shows that people are looking to make a connection with Jesus in some way." His church is trying to satisfy that spiritual curiosity, just as countless missionaries to Japan have attempted before. Yet many Christians have discovered that the Japanese view of religion can be rather baffling - as the grave of Christ the rice farmer reveals
martin macdonald
10-Sep-06, 21:30
trust jesus or dont trust jesus. a simple childlike faith or complex religion the choice is yours:Razz
Cedric Farthsbottom III
10-Sep-06, 21:40
trust jesus or dont trust jesus. a simple childlike faith or complex religion the choice is yours:Razz
I used to just trust me,because he used to trust me.My life stunk,nothing was going for me.
Then arrived in Caithness and a sunrise appeared,met a young Caithness lass.She enthrolled me with her wit and had the brightest outllook of life I have ever seen.
So you believe in Jesus,on yerself pal.I believe in a stronger faith.....love.Cos I've eventually found it....and believe me ma friend it feels rare.I am in two minds about God,in your eyes I'm going to hell.In my own life wi ma wife and kids....I'm already in a Caithness heaven:lol:
pultneytooner
10-Sep-06, 21:44
trust jesus or dont trust jesus. a simple childlike faith or complex religion the choice is yours:Razz
Sorry martin but what I see from your posts appears to be blind faith.
If I am wrong then please explain why your faith is the one and only.
martin macdonald
10-Sep-06, 21:45
I used to just trust me,because he used to trust me.My life stunk,nothing was going for me.
Then arrived in Caithness and a sunrise appeared,met a young Caithness lass.She enthrolled me with her wit and had the brightest outllook of life I have ever seen.
So you believe in Jesus,on yerself pal.I believe in a stronger faith.....love.Cos I've eventually found it....and believe me ma friend it feels rare.I am in two minds about God,in your eyes I'm going to hell.In my own life wi ma wife and kids....I'm already in a Caithness heaven:lol:.....thats great news:Razz
Cedric Farthsbottom III
10-Sep-06, 21:48
.....thats great news:Razz
Whats the raspberry for...yer no religious after all its just been a wind up.
martin macdonald
10-Sep-06, 21:53
Sorry martin but what I see from your posts appears to be blind faith.
If I am wrong then please explain why your faith is the one and only.
if you could see it would not be faith:Razz
Cedric Farthsbottom III
10-Sep-06, 21:54
if you could see it would not be faith:Razz
Another raspberry...just another and we have a wee pot o jam going on!!!!:lol:
pultneytooner
10-Sep-06, 21:56
if you could see it would not be faith:Razz
Comeon now martin, please explain your beliefs because all I can see is your blind faith,
martin macdonald
10-Sep-06, 22:00
Comeon now martin, please explain your beliefs because all I can see is your blind faith,
:D i believe jesus
Cedric Farthsbottom III
10-Sep-06, 22:11
:D i believe jesus
Jesus was a man of Faith.Faith of everything good,so why do ye have so much bitterness?:confused
pultneytooner
10-Sep-06, 22:11
:D i believe jesus
Yes martin I can see that you believe in jessu but what are your views, yuou have a blind faith, prove me wrong.
i believe that the bible is absolute truth from God from start of genesis to the end of revelation. i would believe God and trust God first and foremost.God does no tell lies. unlike men:Razz Jesus is the answer....
Science v Religion: About 15 yrs ago, whilst at school, I wrote an essay on this very subject, and as some research was required, I took the time to speak to the school chaplin who happened to be the local priest. He explained that the bible should not be taken literally, but symbolically. Was he wrong? I mean, is he no pals with the BigMan, paid to spread his word and all that ;) ?
pultneytooner
10-Sep-06, 22:25
Science v Religion: About 15 yrs ago, whilst at school, I wrote an essay on this very subject, and as some research was required, I took the time to speak to the school chaplin who happened to be the local priest. He explained that the bible should not be taken literally, but symbolically. Was he wrong? I mean, is he no pals with the BigMan, paid to spread his word and all that ;) ?
Right sorry guys gals but please explain your beliefs to me, martin has told me everything and nothing, he has faith but seemingly no idea why he has that faith.
Dreadnought
10-Sep-06, 22:27
that is correct, GOD is love not a softie his word is his bond. people have a choice accept jesus or dont accept jesus[ heaven or hell] trust him before its to late..
If that is the case then your 'God' can go to hell.
Just adding my tuppence, Pultneytooner. Me, I'm no into the bible, be it literal or symbolic! But if someone can convince me otherwise ;) ...
Dreadnought
10-Sep-06, 22:29
Right sorry guys gals but please explain your beliefs to me, martin has told me everything and nothing, he has faith but seemingly no idea why he has that faith.
I don't believe Martin has any faith at all. What he has is blind dogma.
pultneytooner
10-Sep-06, 22:31
Just adding my tuppence, Pultneytooner. Me, I'm no into the bible, be it literal or symbolic! But if someone can convince me otherwise ;) ...
Me either weeburd but I am open to suggestion but nobody seems to have any explanation for their faith so I remain faithless.
Cedric Farthsbottom III
10-Sep-06, 22:32
If that is the case then your 'God' can go to hell.
Dreadnought God cannae go to Hell cos he's the MAN.Satan's crib is Hell.But is his crib good or bad thats the question?
porshiepoo
10-Sep-06, 22:45
Crumbs, how did I miss this one? :lol:
I really want to add my two pennies worth but I've only glanced through the threads so I'd probably make even less sense than normal. lol.
Suffice to say my opinion on the bible is that it isn't worth the paper it's written on and that to use it as anything other than possible historic reference is sad and a complete waste of time.
I believe that we are here to learn from experiences good and bad and that the entity I believe in would not hand out a do and don't guide book - especially one so contradictory.
Only my opinion mind! ;)
Cedric Farthsbottom III
10-Sep-06, 23:29
Ps. I recently watched a documentary about a newly found Dead Sea scroll. On translation it turned out to be the long lost first page of the Bible. It reads:
'All characters and events portrayed in this novel are fictitious. Any resemblance to any person living or dead is entirely coincidental.'
Don't know about ye other orgers but once in a while looking in a thread
ye miss an occasional post.I missed this one by Dreadnought.To me this is one o' the best posts for humour I have read.....made ma day....even on the Sabbath....hee-heee-heee:lol: :lol:
Me either weeburd but I am open to suggestion but nobody seems to have any explanation for their faith so I remain faithless.
The faith of the church is spelt out in its creeds. (The word 'creed' comes from the latin credo which means ' I believe'.)These creeds are based on what Christians over many years come to believe about God and Jesus. One of the earliest is to be found in a letter written by Paul.
' If you believe that Jesus is Lord and believe God raised him from death, you will be saved. Romans 10:9.
The creeds help individual Christians to know what they believe. Belief is necessary for Christians because they live in in two worlds. The world of the senses and the world of the unseen. They can see the world of senses with teir eyes but 'no-one has ever seen God'. To have FAITH is ... to be certian of things we cannot see. The Atheist point of view, an Atheist is one who believes that there is no God. Man is the highest form of being. He is self sufficient. There is meaning and purpose in his existance apart from God. This is basically the humanist position.
The Agnostic point of view, an Agnostic is one who who does not know if there is a God. In a poll on whether God exists or not he would answer, ' Don't know'. This could be an honest starting point for many people who want to believe in God.
The Christian point of view. Christianity starts with a belief in God. A Christian does not try to prove that God exists. He accepts the fact that he does exist and puts his faith in him. Many non-christians also believe in God or in Gods. Plato, the Greek thinker, once said, ' All men, Greek and barbarian alike , think that Gods exist and behave as though they did'.
A Christian believes that God has made himself known to us in Jesus Christ....
If any man or woman here on the org was to ask Martin Macdonald to pray for them, then he would and whats more i believe he would include them in his prayers for the rest of his life... and that is pure faith..
Cedric Farthsbottom III
11-Sep-06, 00:07
The faith of the church is spelt out in its creeds. (The word 'creed' comes from the latin credo which means ' I believe'.)These creeds are based on what Christians over many years come to believe about God and Jesus. One of the earliest is to be found in a letter written by Paul.
' If you believe that Jesus is Lord and believe God raised him from death, you will be saved. Romans 10:9.
The creeds help individual Christians to know what they believe. Belief is necessary for Christians because they live in in two worlds. The world of the senses and the world of the unseen. They can see the world of senses with teir eyes but 'no-one has ever seen God'. To have FAITH is ... to be certian of things we cannot see. The Atheist point of view, an Atheist is one who believes that there is no God. Man is the highest form of being. He is self sufficient. There is meaning and purpose in his existance apart from God. This is basically the humanist position.
The Agnostic point of view, an Agnostic is one who who does not know if there is a God. In a poll on whether God exists or not he would answer, ' Don't know'. This could be an honest starting point for many people who want to believe in God.
The Christian point of view. Christianity starts with a belief in God. A Christian does not try to prove that God exists. He accepts the fact that he does exist and puts his faith in him. Many non-christians also believe in God or in Gods. Plato, the Greek thinker, once said, ' All men, Greek and barbarian alike , think that Gods exist and behave as though they did'.
A Christian believes that God has made himself known to us in Jesus Christ....
If any man or woman here on the org was to ask Martin Macdonald to pray for them, then he would and whats more i believe he would include them in his prayers for the rest of his life... and that is pure faith..
I believe he would maverick.He would pray for me.Because I know he is a religious man.
But this is the org,and when an orger replies with so many raspberries to keep Hartleys in business for a year.Is this a religious thread or a joke thread.If its a joke thread bring on yer best ,cos I know a few orgers who will be up for it!!:D
Cedric Farthsbottom III
11-Sep-06, 00:33
Me either weeburd but I am open to suggestion but nobody seems to have any explanation for their faith so I remain faithless.
I'm not faithless ma friend.I believe there is somethin' overlookin us.Is it God or human spirit,don't know.You take me as I am as I take you,YES my org pals I knew pultneytooner before I knew him as an orger.Is this a bad thing.............No!!!!! In my own opinion.
LIFE is religion.Look at your own days.Have ye lived it good.If YES......keep doing it cos yer doin' all right.If NO then have a wee blether on the org it will do you good as it did ME.
[quote=Cedric;132954 ...
LIFE is religion.Look at your own days.Have ye lived it good.If YES......keep doing it cos yer doin' all right.If NO then have a wee blether on the org it will do you good as it did ME.[/quote]
Gosh Cedric, some of my best days have been ones where I had a good blether with you on the org.
Cedric Farthsbottom III
11-Sep-06, 00:51
Gosh Cedric, some of my best days have been ones where I had a good blether with you on the org.
Yeah canuck.Me to wi you.:lol: :lol:
rockchick
11-Sep-06, 05:47
god makes it clear in his word that if you dont repent and trust jesus his son, the worlds saviour. then you will perish forever in hell. jesus has done everything for us all we have to do is trust[ you cant work your way in to heaven or try and be good thats the false teaching of religion]
Sooo...all Jesus's predecessors, anyone who lived before he did, are doomed to eternal damnation because Jesus hadn't lived yet, and you can't trust something that doesn't exist yet.
Course, Genesis 6:2 refers to the sons (plural, note) of god mating with the daughters of men, so maybe Jesus was one of them? Or is that taking literal translation of the Bible too far?
martin macdonald
11-Sep-06, 07:19
Sooo...all Jesus's predecessors, anyone who lived before he did, are doomed to eternal damnation because Jesus hadn't lived yet, and you can't trust something that doesn't exist yet.
Course, Genesis 6:2 refers to the sons (plural, note) of god mating with the daughters of men, so maybe Jesus was one of them? Or is that taking literal translation of the Bible too far?
jesus is god in human flesh, he is the creator of all since time began:Razz
Well it's the 11th September anniversary today, and when it comes down to it, there 'aint much difference between the blind faith of Martin in his Christianity and the blind faith of those with their Muslim faith who flew into the towers. We are all entitled to our personal beliefs but the emphasis is on 'personal' no one has the right to thrust their faith down the throats of others, let alone kill 'em. The uncivilised and pathetic bleat of "My God is better than your God" has caused countless millions to die (and they still do).
Come on Martin take a deep breath, open your eyes, try to see past the blind trust in your God, understand that there are a 1,000 beliefs, faiths and religions in this small world - ever wondered why yours was the right one? is it anything to do with your upbringing?, think about it man, if you were born in Basra you'd be a Muslim, born in Jerusalem; a Jew, it goes on - try and stand back; forget about your God, open your mind and think "hey, why are there so many religions?, maybe the others have a base", or like me, (brought up as a Christian - Church three times a day, Church Choir) realised through Armed Forces and Fire Service, after seeing sights that still haunt my mind - there aint nothing there - ever held a baby who's died through smoke inhalation? I ask, can you say "God & Children's Hospice" in one sentence?
Come out the cave..
porshiepoo
11-Sep-06, 08:12
Well it's the 11th September anniversary today, and when it comes down to it, there 'aint much difference between the blind faith of Martin in his Christianity and the blind faith of those with their Muslim faith who flew into the towers. We are all entitled to our personal beliefs but the emphasis is on 'personal' no one has the right to thrust their faith down the throats of others, let alone kill 'em. The uncivilised and pathetic bleat of "My God is better than your God" has caused countless millions to die (and they still do).
Come on Martin take a deep breath, open your eyes, try to see past the blind trust in your God, understand that there are a 1,000 beliefs, faiths and religions in this small world - ever wondered why yours was the right one? is it anything to do with your upbringing?, think about it man, if you were born in Basra you'd be a Muslim, born in Jerusalem; a Jew, it goes on - try and stand back; forget about your God, open your mind and think "hey, why are there so many religions?, maybe the others have a base", or like me, (brought up as a Christian - Church three times a day, Church Choir) realised through Armed Forces and Fire Service, after seeing sights that still haunt my mind - there aint nothing there - ever held a baby who's died through smoke inhalation? I ask, can you say "God & Children's Hospice" in one sentence?
Come out the cave..
I certainly feel for you there Bigpete, you've seen things I hope I never ever have to witness.
However, can I just ask what, from what you've seen, leads you to believe there is nothing after we leave this world?
I have seen death and dead bodies, one of which died in agonising pain, but it's never left me feeling as though there is nothing.
Do your feelings lean toward the thought that life after death would mean the existence of a higher spirit (or god) and that no 'God' would allow this pain and suffering to happen?
Just interested!
Lolabelle
11-Sep-06, 08:14
So the Earth is only 6000 years old?
Codswallop and blind denial that creation is just a story.....
Hello,
I am a christian and absolutely beleive everything in the bible to be totally true. I don't believe that the world is only 6000 years old, how could it be? I think that the hebrew word used for years is the equivalent of "age" so really that is a period of time. It is six thousand years since Adam and Adam was not the first man as such, but the first man that God had a relationship with. Read Genesis 1 & 2. Because Adam & Eve's kids married the daughters of man or something like that. I am away at the moment, but have plenty of info about this at home. As I have not really read it for a while, I am only paraphrasing.
you cant be a child of god untill you trust jesus:cool: no child of god will burn in hell.
Strange.... I have always read that children are born in sin (the original sin of Adam and Eve) and if unbaptised before dieing would live eternity in purgatory, if not burn in hell.
The bible as always selective and subjective. Each takes what they want from it and disgard what they do not want.
porshiepoo
11-Sep-06, 10:21
I'll go along with this higher being being called 'God', but whatever name it goes by we are all it's children whatever.
I'd love to know what McDonald thinks 'hell' is. :eek:
Is it the blistering fires below the earth with devils chasing you round prodding your backside with pitchforks? or is it the life we live now? or could it possibly be the judgement we make on ourselves when we finally get 'home' and have to assess the way we lived this life and what we learnt from this life before deciding what we need to learn in the next?
Lolabelle,
Whatever floats your boat - so the biblical day is about one billion years long? If 'god' made the world in six days no wonder he needed to rest on the seventh....
And you state "...but the first man that God had a relationship with." Does not the bible preach against man lying down with man?
Surely if 'god' was the compassionate, loving and forgiving 'god' that we are led to believe then come judgement day he would forgive even the infidels as they shuffle towards the white light. But no, according to Martin we will be directed to the door marked "HELL". I have this vision of a mailroom style sorting machine flipping a big flap left and right - "believer" and "infidel" - left for heaven, right for hell...
Or do we spend some time in purgatory expiating for our sins? And how do we atone? Are we required to do some sort of community service while in purgatory?
It's all very confusing.
And then there is the Flying Spaghetti Monster.....
porshiepoo
11-Sep-06, 13:19
Surely if 'god' was the compassionate, loving and forgiving 'god' that we are led to believe then come judgement day he would forgive even the infidels as they shuffle towards the white light. But no, according to Martin we will be directed to the door marked "HELL". I have this vision of a mailroom style sorting machine flipping a big flap left and right - "believer" and "infidel" - left for heaven, right for hell...
IMO heaven and hell do not exist in the context we speak of them - heaven up there, hell downstairs.
Heaven (if this is what we choose to call it) is 'home', the place where our spiritual energy (soul) goes when we leave this body here.
Hell (awful word) is where spiritual energies go that are too traumatised from their life experiences on this side and cannot accept the healing light they see as they pass over.
Pergatory on the other hand is the place our souls go to on returning 'home'. To sit in judgement on ourselves, for the actions we have taken in this life and the consequences of those actions. It is a temporary state but one we all have to pass through to ascend to a higher energy.
God, in my opinion, does not judge us ever. why would it? It put us on this planet with no purpose ingrained into our minds but left us to adapt, learn etc etc.
It never judges us but leaves us to judge ourselves - what better teaching can you get than that?????
Just my opinion mind!
Or do we spend some time in purgatory expiating for our sins? And how do we atone? Are we required to do some sort of community service while in purgatory?
We make up for these sins by learning from them and their consequences. To not learn by would surely be a bigger sin?????
We judge ourselves and decide what life experiences we need to experience the next time around.
Some of us obviously choose to come into this life with a spiritual memory of 'home', others don't.
It's all very confusing.
Such as life. Learn from it! [lol]
I'll just stick with my "you're born, you live, you die, there is nothing more after" belief - so much simpler....
martin macdonald
11-Sep-06, 15:38
I noticed an advert for a talk that is going to take place in Wick on Monday regarding the Biblical view of Creation vs the Big Bang Theory.
Wanting to be open-minded and listen to the other side (before shooting them down in flames perhaps!) I logged onto the website www.answersingenesis.org (http://www.answersingenesis.org) and read some of what they have to say. Dear Lord, who comes up with this stuff?
I'm personally of the opinion that the Bible is great as a religious guide, perhaps even a social/morals guide (well, the New Testament perhaps) but as a fount of scientific literature it doesn't really hold water.
But...does anyone else have an opinion on the subject? Was the Earth created in 4004 BC and the Bible is Absolute? or is there some wiggle room in interpretation, and the earth just may be a bit older than 6010 years?
hope all goes well tonight. and have a great time:Razz
willowbankbear
11-Sep-06, 16:09
Are ye not going Martin? I bet you are curious? I bet ye are? Aw come on pal ye know ye want to really :cool: [lol]
I have just read through this whole thread. I stand with Martin Macdonald, as a fellow Christian. In many posts, he has been accused of having a "blind faith". Not so! His faith is based on the Word of God, the Bible.
Several posts have attacked the veracity of the Bible....I challenge all of you who have written such posts to READ the Bible....not just to look up arguments...but read it with an open mind....and ask God to show you if it is true or not. If you don't believe in God, you could say something like, "God, I don't know if you are real, but if you are, then show me the truth".
And do come along to the meeting on 18th September......even if you don't believe, come and hear the arguments.
This is the most serious issue you will ever face in your whole life. Will you spend eternity in Heaven or Hell? God is holy and therefore must condemn all mankind to Hell as we are all sinful. BUT, because of His love, He has made a way for sinners who repent and trust Jesus Christ as Saviour to escape the punishment we deserve. On the cross, Jesus took the punishment for all who will trust in Him.
Don't just mock....take this seriously. You will be WELCOME if you come to the meeting, whatever your point of view.
I have just read through this whole thread. I stand with Martin Macdonald, as a fellow Christian. In many posts, he has been accused of having a "blind faith". Not so! His faith is based on the Word of God, the Bible.
Several posts have attacked the veracity of the Bible....I challenge all of you who have written such posts to READ the Bible....not just to look up arguments...but read it with an open mind....and ask God to show you if it is true or not. If you don't believe in God, you could say something like, "God, I don't know if you are real, but if you are, then show me the truth".
And do come along to the meeting on 18th September......even if you don't believe, come and hear the arguments.
This is the most serious issue you will ever face in your whole life. Will you spend eternity in Heaven or Hell? God is holy and therefore must condemn all mankind to Hell as we are all sinful. BUT, because of His love, He has made a way for sinners who repent and trust Jesus Christ as Saviour to escape the punishment we deserve. On the cross, Jesus took the punishment for all who will trust in Him.
Don't just mock....take this seriously. You will be WELCOME if you come to the meeting, whatever your point of view.
I have been skimming this thread but I would like to add a few comments and questions.
Some people have voiced some very strong opinions but the original thread was not if there was a God or not, but whether the Bible is a literal truth or more of a spiritual guide. Given some of the arguments that have come out one that have exposed inconsistencies in the Bible one would have to conclude it can not be taken literally however, it still is a very good guide.
As an atheist why would I wish to come to a meeting about God or religion?
As an atheist why would I wish to come to a meeting about God or religion?
Should we hold our own meeting MP?
changilass
11-Sep-06, 16:33
I'll come to the meeting as well if I can please.
Hello, my name is changi and I am a non believer:D
j4bberw0ck
11-Sep-06, 16:39
Well, I don't know about anyone else in here, but whilst I can't agree (I suspect) with martin macdonald in almost any respect about his faith, I admire the way in which he put his views over and didn't get dragged into debate. Nice one, martin.
As an atheist why would I wish to come to a meeting about God or religion?
Madpict, as Shalom said, you would be welcome to come to the meeting next Monday night. Come along and listen (and even contribute) then come to your own conclusions, Surely to have an opinion about something its always best to know all sides of the issue. Also, thanks to all Christians like myself who have spoken up for the Christian faith on this thread, and God bless all on the Org - I pray you all find the forgiveness, acceptance, security and love I have found in a personal relationship with Jesus - there's nothing like it.
Therein lies the problem.
The faith of the church is spelt out in its creeds. (The word 'creed' comes from the latin credo which means ' I believe'.)These creeds are based on what Christians over many years come to believe about God and Jesus.
Creeds and not the Bible.
The Bible is a fantastic book that can be read as history, myth or story: Much of our modern literature is based on it.
The Bible can also be also be read as a guide for life and it is a very good guidepost for how people should be. (Have you ever noticed how people who really believe, who really have faith have a 'something' about them no matter what their religion is?). Is it a literal journey? Too many years between sections, too many additions too many translations and too many creeds I'm afraid.
pultneytooner
11-Sep-06, 17:30
Religions are a curse on humanity, the reason for so many deaths and wars, the cause of most of the cruel nasty things that have ever happened the inhabitants on this planet of ours.
I don't believe any god made mankind but rather mankind invented gods by the hundreds.
Americans seem to invent a new dumb religion every day of the week.
do you want to become a billionaire?
Make up a religion, move to america and start a cult.
Before long you will have thousands of followers who will give you all there cash.[lol]
Thanks for the invite flyfifer - I don't need to come along to further enforce my disbelief in any form of deity.
Instead I will investigate the only true sprit, a nice single malt...
Orgatheists Meeting - 7pm - venue yet to be decided....
Spaghetti and Meatballs for food.
pultneytooner
11-Sep-06, 17:37
Brian: 'Look, you've got it all wrong! You don't NEED to follow ME, you don't NEED to follow ANYBODY! You've got to think for yourselves! You're ALL individuals!'
The Crowd (speaking in unison): 'Yes! We're all individuals!'
Brian: 'You're all different!'
The Crowd (in unison): 'Yes, we ARE all different!'
Man in crowd: 'I'm not...'
The Crowd: 'Shhh!'
He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy. ... [lol]
porshiepoo
11-Sep-06, 17:48
I have just read through this whole thread. I stand with Martin Macdonald, as a fellow Christian. In many posts, he has been accused of having a "blind faith". Not so! His faith is based on the Word of God, the Bible.
Uh huh!
Several posts have attacked the veracity of the Bible....I challenge all of you who have written such posts to READ the Bible....not just to look up arguments...but read it with an open mind....and ask God to show you if it is true or not. If you don't believe in God, you could say something like, "God, I don't know if you are real, but if you are, then show me the truth".
Okayyyyyyyyyy!
This is the most serious issue you will ever face in your whole life. Will you spend eternity in Heaven or Hell? God is holy and therefore must condemn all mankind to Hell as we are all sinful. BUT, because of His love, He has made a way for sinners who repent and trust Jesus Christ as Saviour to escape the punishment we deserve. On the cross, Jesus took the punishment for all who will trust in Him.
Now that is just not funny!
On the cross Jesus was crucified - end of - and further more he was crucified for his own sins, not ours.
If for one misguided minute he died thinking he would save all mankind then what a silly, silly man he was, and I shall tell him so if I ever get to meet him.
Jesus, assuming he existed, was merely a preacher who maybe had healing hands and His mother certainly wasn't a virgin. Just my opinion! ;)
What I don't get is why a faith such as yours wants to scare people into conforming to your faith - or else!
Don't just mock....take this seriously. You will be WELCOME if you come to the meeting, whatever your point of view.
so long as we're recoverable eh?[lol]
rockchick
11-Sep-06, 17:57
The only reason I would go to this talk is to see HOW they are going to interpret the evidence to fit their theory. I watched a tv programme where a guy explained dinosaur fossils away by claiming they were dragons.
yeah, right. dragons, of course...what else could they be?
Porshiepoo
We're not trying to scare anyone, we just want to share what God has done for us. He loves us all and wants us to love him too. I am saddened by the hardness of your feelings towards Him and the things you said about Jesus, but I still luv u and want the Best for u x
rockchick
11-Sep-06, 18:07
Several posts have attacked the veracity of the Bible....I challenge all of you who have written such posts to READ the Bible....not just to look up arguments...but read it with an open mind....and ask God to show you if it is true or not. If you don't believe in God, you could say something like, "God, I don't know if you are real, but if you are, then show me the truth".
Well, actually, I HAVE read the Bible, and with an open mind; an open mind is also a QUESTIONING mind, and many of those questions are simply not answered in the Bible.
Even a child, reading Genesis, can figure out that when Cain went to the land of Nod to get a wife, that there MUST have been other people on earth other than Adam and Eve. It's just common sense, another god-given gift, which does not have to be dropped to have faith. Maybe it does for "child-like" faith, but my Higher Power does not demand of me to be brainless.
Rockchick, a couple of things before you get in the car to go to the lecture.
The very latest of the Biblical books were written some 1000 years before the scientific method and scientific thought were developed. So, its text predates anything remotely scientific.
And from the Church of Scotland's own statements I quote: ... "the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments, to be the supreme rule of faith and life." The Scriptures are about faith and living life, they are not meant to be a science text.
As to the contradictions you have identified, yup they are there and it takes one serious reflection sometimes to explain those contradictions. Perhaps the easiest place to start is recognizing the form of literature where they occur. So much of the Biblical text is poetry and that is about emotions, not literal fact. Then there are the countless number of love stories, again not a physics report. So, you are right to identify the inconsistencies, but it is important to place them in context when attempting to understand them.
I wish that I had more time, but you have to fly. Enjoy the lecture.
rockchick
11-Sep-06, 18:25
Rockchick, a couple of things before you get in the car to go to the lecture.
The very latest of the Biblical books were written some 1000 years before the scientific method and scientific thought were developed. So, its text predates anything remotely scientific.
And from the Church of Scotland's own statements I quote: ... "the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments, to be the supreme rule of faith and life." The Scriptures are about faith and living life, they are not meant to be a science text.
As to the contradictions you have identified, yup they are there and it takes one serious reflection sometimes to explain those contradictions. Perhaps the easiest place to start is recognizing the form of literature where they occur. So much of the Biblical text is poetry and that is about emotions, not literal fact. Then there are the countless number of love stories, again not a physics report. So, you are right to identify the inconsistencies, but it is important to place them in context when attempting to understand them.
I wish that I had more time, but you have to fly. Enjoy the lecture.
Hi Canuck! Lecture isn't until next Monday...
Ahhh...the voice of reason! I understand and agree with all that you are saying. I have never thought of the Bible as a scientific guide; I simply don't understand other people using it as one! Especially when they insist, with all the religious fervour that their faith can muster, that the Bible is the literal truth. That isn't what a Higher Power or a Path is all about, to me.
porshiepoo
11-Sep-06, 19:11
Porshiepoo
We're not trying to scare anyone, we just want to share what God has done for us. He loves us all and wants us to love him too. I am saddened by the hardness of your feelings towards Him and the things you said about Jesus, but I still luv u and want the Best for u x
Ah bless![disgust]
I really don't have hard feelings towards 'them', I don't have any feelings at all cos I don't believe in them in the context that you do.
George Brims
11-Sep-06, 21:05
the late charles darwin was a very clever man. i read his theory on evolution. he became a christian later on in life and believed jesus and his truth:Razz
He was a Christian to begin with, and held off on publishing "On the Origin of Species" for fear of the controversy it would cause, and that it might undermine other peoples' faith. Unlike Martin, he was the kind of Christian who didn't believe every word in the Bible is literally true.
George Brims
11-Sep-06, 21:13
ha! ha! no just a simple faith in jesus thats all[lol]
Well on any other day I would have hesitated to post this, but it's the 5th anniversary of the day I got a phone call from my daughter's friend's mother asking if we had heard from the kids - who were in New York. This was posted this morning on www.huffingtonpost.com, by someone called Arouet. I agree with every word.
Five years ago, near three thousand of our fellow Americans, living, breathing, sentient beings with children and mortgages, with lovers and dreams, were reduced to burnt dust in the rubble of the Looming Towers. They were not killed by ignorance or poverty or because, quote, "they hate our freedoms". They were murdered by Faith. Faith in unseen gods, in invisible paradises, in the ancient fairy tales of wandering desert tribes, their myths of creation, sacrifice, redemption and eternal life. Faith caused 9/11.
Oh how easy for us to scoff at the outlandish, misogynistic beliefs of the nineteen "holy warriors", the shaving of their body hair, the 72 virgins awaiting each assassin, the eerie willingness of these highly educated children of affluent families to viciously slaughter and die for lurid storybook endings in the happily ever after.
But, were not tens of thousands burnt at the stake in just Madrid's main square over the course of the Holy Inquisition ? Were not some 70,000 Protestant French Huguenots suddenly massacred on cue by their most Christian neighbors on the feast day of St. Bartholomew? Did not all Europe's Catholic and Protestant armies slaughter and starve to death one third of the entire German people in the horrible war of 1618 -1648, fought over whether the Holy Father or the Holy Bible was inerrant, over whether Communion wafers were truly, truly the very flesh of the Living Lord, or just a symbol of his gory sacrifice? And did not our German cousins, in living memory, grind six million unarmed men, women and children into wet mud in the crematoria of Central Europe because of their peculiar pagan faith in an omniscient Fuhrer?
Chosen People, Elect of the Lord, Master Race, Party of God, on and on, faith in fanciful tales, embellished and handed down for a hundred generations. Faith in omnipotent Fathers, and bright Forevers. The lies used by priests, preachers and politicians, by imams and rabbis, since the first witch doctor sought sway over his fellows in a cave at the dawn of our species.
Faith, its arrogant certainties, and its absolute moral imperatives caused 9/11.
Faith kills.
Just read George Brims excellent and fully to the point posting. I'm 100% behind you George. 'fraid my piece is pretty amateurish!
Hi Porshiepoo, just got in - been down to Inverness and filled up at Tesco's at 84.9p a litre, whilst in Thurso it's still 100.p - the Rip-off continues!
You say: "I certainly feel for you there Bigpete, you've seen things I hope I never ever have to witness.
However, can I just ask what, from what you've seen, leads you to believe there is nothing after we leave this world? [well suppose for a start no-one's come back to tell me, or the billions of humans who die ever 80-90 years either, helps a bit, it might sound sick but in 'desperate' situations (in my past) we'd joke about coming back to haunt each other. Whooph! and its going around with bin-bags to collect your mates, ever felt the weight of a head? and you know what no-one ever appeared.
Anyway can I digress? there was one instance where a sniper took of the face of a colleague; I actually saw him fall just a few yards ahead, within seconds he was white (no blood you see). Anyway as I was a witness I had to wait around for statements, it was getting dark and as the body of this chap had been carted away, I thought I'd clean up the mess and nipped into the cellar of the building we were in, down two floors to where stores were kept, Jeyes Fluid you see. I opened the door, a solitarily light-bulb hung from the ceiling and right in front - not ten feet away stood this dead chap, looking directly at me. I felt my knees begin to buckle and if it was not for being able to lean again a 45 gallon oil drum I would have fallen. All I could say was "you're dead"!. A few seconds later the 'apparition' spoke "what the hell you on about Pete, that was ******". It was only then it dawned that the facial structure of the poor chap upstairs and this man were the same, the mental picture I had of the dead man was the person here in the cellar. Anyway just an aside. ]
I have seen death and dead bodies, one of which died in agonising pain, but it's never left me feeling as though there is nothing. [were those non-violent or natural deaths? but it's your prerogative porshiepoo, maybe my own experience of seeing extreme violence in death, the totally unnecessary destroying of human life, babies brains to sweep up, because "Jesus wants them in heaven"?. Ok some folk may need a crutch "surely that's not it - there must be something else"? Nope, that's it mate, you're born, you live, then you die; period. My own 'beliefs' are as a Humanist, Look up Humanism, I reckon there's a lot of folk on this Forum who would fit nicely into that; no problem] Do your feelings lean toward the thought that life after death would mean the existence of a higher spirit (or god) and that no 'God' would allow this pain and suffering to happen? [Well basically think it's a bit naive and silly to think there is a 'God' or higher spirit, as I mention I've been around a bit and seen a bit and I 'aint yet seen anything to lead me to believe in anything outside of myself.. On reflection it was five years ago this very day there were 'believers' flying planes into the twin-towers in the name of 'God'. Sorry I've waffled on a bit]
Just interested!
George Brims
11-Sep-06, 21:30
Thanks bigpete, but I wish I was that eloquent. I was quoting from another site.
Oh and it was 5 years ago today - see the "remember?" thread for my experience with that.
rockchick
11-Sep-06, 22:08
Five years ago, near three thousand of our fellow Americans, living, breathing, sentient beings with children and mortgages, with lovers and dreams, were reduced to burnt dust in the rubble of the Looming Towers. They were not killed by ignorance or poverty or because, quote, "they hate our freedoms". They were murdered by Faith. Faith in unseen gods, in invisible paradises, in the ancient fairy tales of wandering desert tribes, their myths of creation, sacrifice, redemption and eternal life. Faith caused 9/11.
<snip> Faith, its arrogant certainties, and its absolute moral imperatives caused 9/11.
Faith kills.
Wow, what a piece. I agree totally, except I would say that "mindless faith" is what can kill. True faith, not that being exploited or corrupted for other purposes, is a strength, not a liability. It's knowledge of what is right over wrong that sets us apart from the animals, and this knowledge/choice should carry over into our religious beliefs as well.
I believe that since the dawn of time every conflict, be it full scale war or acts of terrorism or genocide or religious persecution or whatever atrocity that has taken place on this planet, has been perpetrated by one thing and one thing only....MAN........Mankind goes to war, not faith not doctrine not religion but MAN, granted Mankind uses all the afore mentioned to justify the acts of war and to excuse the atrocities committed. We all have FAITH! When we go to the Doctor and ask him to cure our ailment we believe that the medication that he is giving us will cure us,(we have to have faith in his ability)or if we call the Fire Service to rescue an individual trapped in a burning building, ( we believe that the firemen will carry off the rescue). That BELIEF is FAITH, and it doesn't start wars. MAN starts WARS and has caused every war that's ever been or will ever be. America had a civil war because people believed that all men were equall and that all black men should be set free ( nothing to do with religion) and the other lot thought no chance all black men should be slaves. Hitler hated Jews not because of their religious beliefs but because he believed that they were responsible for undermining the german economy and used (jewish religious practises) to persuade the german people that the jews were sub-human and the german people were the master race, as a result 6 million jews were slaughtered, nothing to do with religion, but because adolf didn't like them. My point being MAN will always find ways to justify his war, faith will never cause war but will always be used as the catylist to start war..
Whitewater
11-Sep-06, 22:47
All people have faith in something or other, whether it is science, money, power, their god, or whatever. There is nothing wrong with anyone having faith in the bible or their god if that gets them through the day, keeps them on the staight and narrow, and gives them the strength of character they need to perhaps overcome some of evils of this world. We should not mock them.
This original question of this thread, if I remember correctly, was "should we take the bible literally" I don't think so, it contradicts itself too often, the new testiment teaches love for our enemies, the original bible wants an eye for an eye.
It has been translated too often by too many people wanting to get their own particular message across, so that we can be manipulated and controlled in the manner they percieve is supposed to be best for us.
I think it should be used as a guide for our everyday life. It has some good moral truths in it, which should not be ignored, and in many cases they will help some people to lead better lives. At the end of the day if it helps people to get through their troubles, and gives them strength in their time of need, that is all that matters. Everybody in the world needs to have something to give them hope.
But I don't believe in the literal meaning, nor the beginning of the earth in 4004bc(was the the date quoted, can't remember now).
mostlyharmless
12-Sep-06, 01:19
As I understand it the new testament and old testament make up the bible. Moses introduced the lower law as the people weren't ready for it back then [the old laws of an eye for an eye etc]this law was updated when christ came who said love your enemy.
These higher laws which we still seem to have difficulty living!!
How patronising we are to insinuate that generations many of our own ancestors included were naive, blind and desperate.
We of course are so real and tough and truthful and don't need any kind of faith or hope... I don't believe it.
Someone once said to me what if ..what if the inside page of the bible were missing and it was discovered and it said 'The Bible a work of fiction made by the hand of man'
Why is it when it comes to things of religion or faith should we say ,we seem to suddenly lose all common sense and fail to look up historical facts about how the bible as a canon of works actually came to be ?![A sun worshipper?}
Would you do it with a car manual for example; 'this manual is wrong altogether that nut does not go there and never will " Do we then watch from our spinning car as our wheel bounces down the road'
No we trust it to be right, or if not we read it thoroughly and make sure we do the job right as our lives depend on it.
Our lives or our childrens lives might well depend on us living some pretty important things written in the bible, things that eternally may be even more important than the nuts on your wheel.
Or maybe we should just sit back interpret it our own way like millions before us, argue about what is right and wrong, interpret favourite pieces form a church and disagree with as many other churches as possible .
Then we make it a personal vendetta against other churches include a few friends to join you rally to the flag and have a fight about something which you weren't really sure of anyway but along the way someone made it personal.
Maybe we should just let others live and worship how they want!?
I have a bad feeling that eventually we may have to choose where we stand !
I am a humourist I am willing to laugh at anything until its no longer a joke.
If our modern day purpose to life is 'peace' for one thing does that offer any more than the religion that millions believe in? and if so why do we seek to destroy it? Are we offering a better path ?...and for another I think our interpretations and misunderstandings have taken us as far from 'peace' as we could possibly be.
I agree the bible doesn't explain how long a godly day is so that could be open to interpretation a day is a 1000 yrs then?
Evolution yes things do adapt but do complete new species form?
Was the earth reformed in those 6 days from matter that was already millions of years old?
Or did god use an old dead planet that once had other things living on it and made it into another world.
Was the earth always here in this place in the universe ? Did he move it from residence around another sun where each real day was a 1000 or 10,000 years whatever the answer I don't think our interpretation is going to do it justice do you?
porshiepoo
12-Sep-06, 09:08
[well suppose for a start no-one's come back to tell me, or the billions of humans who die ever 80-90 years either, helps a bit, it might sound sick but in 'desperate' situations (in my past) we'd joke about coming back to haunt each other. Whooph! and its going around with bin-bags to collect your mates, ever felt the weight of a head? and you know what no-one ever appeared.
Anyway can I digress? there was one instance where a sniper took of the face of a colleague; I actually saw him fall just a few yards ahead, within seconds he was white (no blood you see). Anyway as I was a witness I had to wait around for statements, it was getting dark and as the body of this chap had been carted away, I thought I'd clean up the mess and nipped into the cellar of the building we were in, down two floors to where stores were kept, Jeyes Fluid you see. I opened the door, a solitarily light-bulb hung from the ceiling and right in front - not ten feet away stood this dead chap, looking directly at me. I felt my knees begin to buckle and if it was not for being able to lean again a 45 gallon oil drum I would have fallen. All I could say was "you're dead"!. A few seconds later the 'apparition' spoke "what the hell you on about Pete, that was ******". It was only then it dawned that the facial structure of the poor chap upstairs and this man were the same, the mental picture I had of the dead man was the person here in the cellar. Anyway just an aside. ]
very er.. graphic there BigPete. :(
[were those non-violent or natural deaths?
Does it really matter? Death is death and it doesn't matter how it happens we're all going the same way! Anyway to answer the question - they were natural in their causes but still horiffic to have to see anyway.
but it's your prerogative porshiepoo, maybe my own experience of seeing extreme violence in death, the totally unnecessary destroying of human life, babies brains to sweep up, because "Jesus wants them in heaven"?. Ok some folk may need a crutch "surely that's not it - there must be something else"? Nope, that's it mate, you're born, you live, then you die; period. My own 'beliefs' are as a Humanist, Look up Humanism, I reckon there's a lot of folk on this Forum who would fit nicely into that; no problem]
I don't really need to look up the word humanism as I'm well aware of it's meaning.
I find it strange that you would regard yourself as a humanist however.
While I respect anybody that has served time protecting their country (I grew up with a father in the RAF) is not the humanist point of view to be active in a non violent way? Where differences should be resolved cooperatively without resorting to violence?
Humanist also have the point of view that while the universe is self existing and not the creation of any other being, they do not deny the possibilities of other realities hitherto undiscovered.
My belief in life after death and the way I have interpreted it would mean I couldn't take a life the way these suicide bombers, terrorists etc etc do.
I believe that we are all here to learn and to grow spiritually in order to ascend to a higher spiritual entity on the other side.
The people you talk of have interpreted their religion in a misguided violent way - not to mention selfish! Personally I think all known potential suicide bombers should be lined up against a wall and shot - it saves them pain on the other side and us the pain and violence they cause on this side. I don't for one minute claim I could be the one to do it though.
[Well basically think it's a bit naive and silly to think there is a 'God' or higher spirit, as I mention I've been around a bit and seen a bit and I 'aint yet seen anything to lead me to believe in anything outside of myself.. On reflection it was five years ago this very day there were 'believers' flying planes into the twin-towers in the name of 'God'. Sorry I've waffled on a bit]
You've not waffled, you've spoken openly, and I suspect from the heart, about your beliefs and why you have them.
Personally though, I think it's ignorance born of fear that prevents people accepting the possibility of life after death.
I certainly respect your opinions though Bigpete!
p.s I'd remove that disguised swear word before a mod sees it. LOL. Although in your defence, it was necessary for the memory you were sharing.
pultneytooner
12-Sep-06, 09:22
p.s I'd remove that disguised swear word before a mod sees it. LOL. Although in your defence, it was necessary for the memory you were sharing.
I think it's the name of the soldier who was shot, not a swear word, could be wrong though.:D
porshiepoo: Does it really matter? Death is death and it doesn't matter how it happens we're all going the same way! Anyway to answer the question - they were natural in their causes but still horiffic to have to see anyway.
[right, so expected]
I don't really need to look up the word humanism as I'm well aware of it's meaning.
I find it strange that you would regard yourself as a humanist however.
While I respect anybody that has served time protecting their country (I grew up with a father in the RAF) is not the humanist point of view to be active in a non violent way? [as with any 'ideas' (you may call them faith or belief) - no one follows every facet of that belief, I consider myself a Humanist as this is 'the box' I would consider myself closest too. Presumably you follow your own beliefs to exact precise guidelines? Serving in HM forces in not a 'violent' way if it's for peaceful purposes, ie protecting elements of the population] Where differences should be resolved cooperatively without resorting to violence? ['Should' not Must]
Humanist also have the point of view that while the universe is self existing and not the creation of any other being, they do not deny the possibilities of other realities hitherto undiscovered. [obvious, in that it is a closed mind and indeed arrogant to think that our little speck is the only one that has 'life' upon it, what with some 60,000 billion billion stars in the universe we think we are 'special'?]
My belief in life after death and the way I have interpreted it would mean I couldn't take a life the way these suicide bombers, terrorists etc etc do. [why not, it is their belief it is correct, is your God better than theirs?]
I believe that we are all here to learn and to grow spiritually in order to ascend to a higher spiritual entity on the other side. [your prerogative]
The people you talk of have interpreted their religion in a misguided violent way - not to mention selfish! Personally I think all known potential suicide bombers should be lined up against a wall and shot - it saves them pain on the other side and us the pain and violence they cause on this side. I don't for one minute claim I could be the one to do it though. [again presumable your 'to grow spiritually.. a higher spiritual entity' does not preclude you reaching this by your pronouncements of murder?]
You've not waffled, you've spoken openly, and I suspect from the heart, about your beliefs and why you have them. Personally though, I think it's ignorance born of fear that prevents people accepting the possibility of life after death. [Ignorance born of fear? so I understand, if I don't accept your ideas, I'm ignorant - hmm]
I certainly respect your opinions though Bigpete! [ta]
p.s I'd remove that disguised swear word before a mod sees it. LOL. Although in your defence, it was necessary for the memory you were sharing. [ this was the soldiers name, not swearing, I've not been contacted by a mod presume they sussed that one out..]
pultneytooner: "I think it's the name of the soldier who was shot, not a swear word"
Thanks pulteneytooner, someones awake!
I've watched the evolution (pardon the pun) of this thread with interest. Martin MacDonald has certainly taken a brave stance while not answering any specific questions. Quite a few others have waded into the Bible and religion with verbal chainsaws as if somehow their so-called "facts" and snippets can somehow take away from it's dominance in genuine Christians lives.
There is little doubt that religion has caused and is causing massive problems in the world. The Bible says that very soon false religion will be completely destroyed. I think that is one thing both those who detest faith in all its forms and I look forward too.
As for contradictions....this has come up before on the Org and been debated long and hard. The fact is that the Old Testiment and more specifically the Law given to Moses was provided to the Israelites and only the Israelites. The Law was a tutor leading to Christ. Christ replaced the Law, with a new covenant. The context, the translation all have to be taken into account when reading any passage from any publication, nevermind the Bible. I respect others viewpoints but I don't like God being misrepresented. Eternal damnation to hellfire for the wicked is not a Bible teaching.
As an example......God said Adam and Eve would die if they ate fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad. He didn't say they would burn in Hell. He said they would die. The wages of sin is death, not eternal torment. We all sin, we all die. Rom 5:12
The dead know nothing. Ecc 9:5
"His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." Ps 146:4
Dust you are and to dust you will return. Gen 3:19
Where was Lazarus when he died? Heaven? Hell? Jesus said he was sleeping and that he would awaken him from sleep. Does any of this indicate life elsewhere?? The dead being alive elsewhere is a continuation of the lie told to Eve by the serpent...."You shall not surely die...."
However the Bible does speak about a lake of fire and a resurrection and eternal life, but I suspect this post is long enough already.....:) You can PM me for more info if you're genuinely interested.
Debates about religion, politics and suchlike are largely pointless and will get us nowhere. To believe or not to believe that is the question. It's a personal decision. I choose to believe.
To believe or not to believe that is the question. It's a personal decision.
Quite so Saveman - just as I choose to not believe. And while I respect the individuals right to believe what they wish, I cannot stand preaching.
So someone telling me that jesus is the only way and everything else is a path to condemning me to rot in the fiery pits of damnation is sort of guaranteeing a robust response.
Live your religion in a quiet manner, practice what you believe with respect to others personal beliefs and do not put your god above any others.
Prove to a believer that God does not exist(hypothetically) and he will have to stop believing. Prove to an atheist that God does exist and he will have to start believing. Ergo, we are all agnostic and all the same. To believe without proof is, to me , foolish and to not believe without proof is equally foolish. The existance of a Diety or nonexistance of a Diety is completely unprovable. To believe the Bible is the Word of God is the greatest foolishness of all. Lead your life to the Christian ideal and practice what Christ supposedly taught and whether you believe in God or not your kharma will be clean.
BMcGillivray
12-Sep-06, 14:17
i believe that the bible is absolute truth from God from start of genesis to the end of revelation. i would believe God and trust God first and foremost.God does no tell lies. unlike men Jesus is the answer....
The bible was penned by men, it was not directly written by the hand of god, nor the hand of jesus... but rather of followers, the apostles, of normal men, who wrote down what they had been taught and told. The words of the bible are therefore corruptable, as men lie, just as you say. I absolutely believe in god, and i believe Jesus existed and had much to teach... but the Bible is not the direct word of god, its the filtered teachings of god, written and distorted by the hand of man, translated from different languages multiple times by multiple people, words and meanings lost and changed in the process. Its been intentionally changed for the benefit of kings in the past (see King James version of the Bible), where it was edited and changed to suit the King and the country of its time.
the main truth is. do you believe that jesus christ was the son of God and he died for sinners like you and me and if we repent of our sin and trust him we will have life to the full. and then eternal life with him forever dont just exsist in this world. live for jesus
Jesus was no more the son of god, than we are all the children of God, our father and lord. Jesus did exist, at least a man of the same name and purpose, who had much to teach, a prophet. He was as divine as any other man, no more, no less.
mostlyharmless
12-Sep-06, 14:19
Strange really that something as important as life the universe and everything cannot be discussed,or politics... what hope our children if we can't discuss things that are the fabric of our very exstence.
Mind you children on the whole do discuss it, it seems as we grow we become scared,uncertain,easily offended and insecure.
Sweeping statements,blind faith,cynicism all seem to sit comfortably with some but infact I wonder if they sit comfortably at all, in the search for truth we shouldn't fear we're all after the same thing ...the answer.
Discussion is great, debate is rarely productive.
porshiepoo said:
"On the cross Jesus was crucified - end of - and further more he was crucified for his own sins, not ours."
Please stick to facts...this is your own fiction!
Jesus was sinless so He could not have been crucified for His own sins! If He had not been sinless, His death would have been worthless....He could not have paid for my sin if He had been a sinner himself. That is the whole point......God demanded a HOLY sacrifice for sin.....that is why God the Son, Jesus, had to die as no human being is holy and therefore could not pay for his/her own sin.
I thank God for Jesus Christ, my Saviour.
porshiepoo
12-Sep-06, 16:34
[as with any 'ideas' (you may call them faith or belief) - no one follows every facet of that belief, I consider myself a Humanist as this is 'the box' I would consider myself closest too. Presumably you follow your own beliefs to exact precise guidelines? Serving in HM forces in not a 'violent' way if it's for peaceful purposes, ie protecting elements of the population]
My beliefs have no guidelines to follow as I don't put myself in any of 'the boxes' you speak of. I haven't arrived at my belief on the backs of others, it's a decision / choice I have taken by my own thoughts only.
As I said before I completely respect anyone that serves in the armed forces however, how can any death be for 'peaceful purposes'? I understand the necessity of our armed forces but war is never going to end with true peace for everyone.
Where differences should be resolved cooperatively without resorting to violence? ['Should' not Must]
Oh, I see, your faith has a convenient get out clause. :lol:
[obvious, in that it is a closed mind and indeed arrogant to think that our little speck is the only one that has 'life' upon it, what with some 60,000 billion billion stars in the universe we think we are 'special'?]
Anything other than the possibility of life after death eh?
[why not, it is their belief it is correct, is your God better than theirs?]
I don't necessarily believe in god.
[again presumable your 'to grow spiritually.. a higher spiritual entity' does not preclude you reaching this by your pronouncements of murder?]
To cause pain and suffering would not be on my agenda, personally. However I can see how some could argue that this may be one of those 'experiences' that I speak of experiencing. (not making sense there huh. Sorry)
[Ignorance born of fear? so I understand, if I don't accept your ideas, I'm ignorant - hmm]
Ignorant of the possibility of life after death - yes, but only if that ignorance is born of your 'fear' of accepting life after death because lets say, you fear purgatory.
I'm not calling you ignorant, apologies if you interpreted it that way.
I certainly respect your opinions though Bigpete! [ta]
Most welcome ;)
p.s I'd remove that disguised swear word before a mod sees it. LOL. Although in your defence, it was necessary for the memory you were sharing. [ this was the soldiers name, not swearing, I've not been contacted by a mod presume they sussed that one out..]
[/QUOTE]
I'm awake now!
rockchick
12-Sep-06, 17:28
porshiepoo said:
"On the cross Jesus was crucified - end of - and further more he was crucified for his own sins, not ours."
Please stick to facts...this is your own fiction!
Jesus was sinless so He could not have been crucified for His own sins! If He had not been sinless, His death would have been worthless....He could not have paid for my sin if He had been a sinner himself. That is the whole point......God demanded a HOLY sacrifice for sin.....that is why God the Son, Jesus, had to die as no human being is holy and therefore could not pay for his/her own sin.
I thank God for Jesus Christ, my Saviour.
Shalom, Porshipoo's message wasn't her "fiction", it was her opinion, which she is entitled to, and it is as valid as any one elses.
However, if you have "facts" that disprove her opinion, please provide references so that the rest of us can read what you have read, and verify these facts as you present them. Sorry, I can't recall where in the bible it states that "god demanded a holy sacrifice for sin", but if you can, I'd love to be able to read it in context.
p.s. I do recall "judge not, lest ye be judged" Matthew 7:1
I've had a 'private message' from Porshiepoo (thanks) in addition to the above.
I don't intend to answer you as you have your 'beliefs' and I have mine, both resulting from our very different points of origin..
11 years as an operational fire fighter ( before disabled ) and what it entails will hopefully reserve my place in 'heaven' (if I'm wrong) to balance up my military 'bad bits'!
Thread; 3004BC or 4.6 billion years Old?
me? I'm angling for the later
Dreadnought
12-Sep-06, 18:04
My downstairs neighbour is a 'born again'. While I realise she is not representative of all God-botherers I have to say she is the most unpleasant human being it has ever been my misfortune to meet. She spouts the Bible at every chance, wears her 'Christianity' on her sleeve (I thought pride was a sin?) and condemns all who do not go to church (I also thought judging your fellow man was a sin?). She is a foul person, and I am convinced, utterly convinced that the only reason she goes to church on a sunday is so she can be a total *bleep* for the other six days of the week.
She is not the only christian I have met who is like this, and every time I see them I think to myself 'If that is being a Christian then I want no part of it.'
pultneytooner
12-Sep-06, 18:30
porshiepoo said:
"On the cross Jesus was crucified - end of - and further more he was crucified for his own sins, not ours."
Please stick to facts...this is your own fiction!
Jesus was sinless so He could not have been crucified for His own sins! If He had not been sinless, His death would have been worthless....He could not have paid for my sin if He had been a sinner himself. That is the whole point......God demanded a HOLY sacrifice for sin.....that is why God the Son, Jesus, had to die as no human being is holy and therefore could not pay for his/her own sin.
I thank God for Jesus Christ, my Saviour.
There was that time with mary magdalene.;)
martin macdonald
12-Sep-06, 19:52
My downstairs neighbour is a 'born again'. While I realise she is not representative of all God-botherers I have to say she is the most unpleasant human being it has ever been my misfortune to meet. She spouts the Bible at every chance, wears her 'Christianity' on her sleeve (I thought pride was a sin?) and condemns all who do not go to church (I also thought judging your fellow man was a sin?). She is a foul person, and I am convinced, utterly convinced that the only reason she goes to church on a sunday is so she can be a total *bleep* for the other six days of the week.
She is not the only christian I have met who is like this, and every time I see them I think to myself 'If that is being a Christian then I want no part of it.'
it is fair to say that you do get bad examples of christians but you also get good examples. there is know perfect people this side of heaven[ im not what i should be ,im not what i could be, but thank God im not what i used to be]:cool:
porshiepoo
12-Sep-06, 20:07
I've had a 'private message' from Porshiepoo (thanks) in addition to the above.
You're welcome!
[QUOTE]I don't intend to answer you as you have your 'beliefs' and I have mine, both resulting from our very different points of origin..
Obviously in your mind this means that two people can't have a private, civil conversation - Hmmm! wonder what kind of damage has been done in this world with that kind of thinking.
11 years as an operational fire fighter ( before disabled ) and what it entails will hopefully reserve my place in 'heaven' (if I'm wrong) to balance up my military 'bad bits'!
When you pass over you'll only sit in judgement on yourself, no one does that for you. (my opinion!)
You have worded what you suggest are your 'military bad bits' in such a way that one might think that I have made this comment to you in my pm. I'm just making it clear that I have never suggested that your military record have any 'bad bits' to it at all.
You live your life as you see fit, that is what we're all here to do.
Why would someone who steadfastly refuses to believe in the whole 'soul' concept or any life after death 'hope' they reserved a place in heaven?????
Surely you can't be wrong Bigpete! [disgust]
Hi there, the last thing I wan't to do is criticise anybodys beliefs, we are entitled to believe what we want - so here is my take on the Bible...
The Holy Bible was a good book written by an excellent author (a Stephen King of the past), one of the main characters being Jesus Christ.
There was many other characters but I am just naming himself just now.
As the years went on, because there was no copyright laws in exsistence, other good authors decided to add little bits to this good book over a peroid of centuries, therefore we have a rather large book now and for the last couple of thousand years, people have started to believe what has been written as gospel, because they have been brought up with this book all of their lives (brainwashed) and know no differn't.
Along comes science which contradicts everything in this book, so therefore the people who believe in this book have no other choice than to slate science as being witchcraft.
I myself believe in science as I have been 'brainwashed' with its theory's, but when you do the sums, most of it makes sense, and the numbers add up, but when you read the Bible, so much of it has so many contradictions it is very difficult to find any of it that makes sense.
I could be very wrong in saying this but my take on Adam and Eve is confusing for one.
Adam and Eve were created by God, the only two humans on earth.
They eventually got down to business and had two children - Cain and Able.
Cain and Able grew up - they had thier problems - they then married ????
I may of picked this story up totally wrong, so please forgive me if there is an answer to this, but who did they marry if they were the only two children of Adam and Eve ?
Sorry for being niave if there is a plausible answer.
Anyway I'll leave it there, and as I said, people can believe what they want to believe, I have informed you of mine, just don't try and force your opinions unto others who have thier own beliefs, thats how Wars start.
I hope that made some sort of sense (clear as mud !!!)
porshiepoo
12-Sep-06, 20:51
The Holy Bible was a good book written by an excellent author (a Stephen King of the past), one of the main characters being Jesus Christ.
There was many other characters but I am just naming himself just now.
As the years went on, because there was no copyright laws in exsistence, other good authors decided to add little bits to this good book over a peroid of centuries, therefore we have a rather large book now and for the last couple of thousand years, people have started to believe what has been written as gospel, because they have been brought up with this book all of their lives (brainwashed) and know no differn't.
Along comes science which contradicts everything in this book, so therefore the people who believe in this book have no other choice than to slate science as being witchcraft.
I myself believe in science as I have been 'brainwashed' with its theory's, but when you do the sums, most of it makes sense, and the numbers add up, but when you read the Bible, so much of it has so many contradictions it is very difficult to find any of it that makes sense.
I could be very wrong in saying this but my take on Adam and Eve is confusing for one.
Adam and Eve were created by God, the only two humans on earth.
They eventually got down to business and had two children - Cain and Able.
Cain and Able grew up - they had thier problems - they then married ????
I may of picked this story up totally wrong, so please forgive me if there is an answer to this, but who did they marry if they were the only two children of Adam and Eve ?
Sorry for being niave if there is a plausible answer.
Anyway I'll leave it there, and as I said, people can believe what they want to believe, I have informed you of mine, just don't try and force your opinions unto others who have thier own beliefs, thats how Wars start.
I hope that made some sort of sense (clear as mud !!!)
[/QUOTE]
I completely get what you're saying.
I too believe the bible to be a book of fiction that has been added to as time goes by, evolving into a huge game of chinese whicpers.
If this 'god' were able to put man on the earth surely it would make more sense to put more of em on the earth? not produce one man and one woman enticing them into an act that this same god would then declare sinful in the bible?
Porshiepoo - why so much hatred?
Please stick to facts...this is your own fiction!
Jesus was sinless so He could not have been crucified for His own sins! If He had not been sinless, His death would have been worthless....He could not have paid for my sin if He had been a sinner himself. That is the whole point......God demanded a HOLY sacrifice for sin.....that is why God the Son, Jesus, had to die as no human being is holy and therefore could not pay for his/her own sin.
I thank God for Jesus Christ, my Saviour.
An interesting view. My understanding is that Jesus died a man as a guide for all mankind could be shown a way into heaven. You can’t kill a god but you can kill a man: who can then be resurrected.
If you look at many of the depictions of Christ on the cross and after he has been brought down his body is tortured and broken but his soul/spirit/add as you see fit, found salvation in God and eternal life in Heaven.
pultneytooner
12-Sep-06, 22:25
Religion seems to be nothing more than a social construct. It's existence as a symbol is purely a result of the negotiations between people to sustain it because of the function it plays in society. Most religions, as we know preach about all the good stuff that we ought to do. As such, they play a part in regulating the morality of the world, and religion as an entity is thus regarded as functional. An additional function it serves is to create " divine hope" and "miracles" for people. Karl Marx would term it as merely an "opiate for the masses" which serve to give this false sense of hope and salvation to the working class mass who cannot attain their goals and aspirations. Hence, because of all the multiple functions it plays, it has continued to play an important role in peoples lives.
Is this thread going to go on for 4.6 more billion years, Im getting bored with all this pulpit thumping and preaching at me, wake me up when your finished
Looks like porshiepoo won't take a hint, my God (whoops I mean goodness) doesn't this person go on and on? I was perfectly willing to let her go on believing what she likes, whether it's Great Danes or a higher spiritual being it makes no difference to me.
Me: I don't intend to answer you as you have your 'beliefs' and I have mine, both resulting from our very different points of origin..
porshiepoo: Obviously in your mind this means that two people can't have a private, civil conversation - Hmmm! wonder what kind of damage has been done in this world with that kind of thinking. [Hmmm, what the heck do I want to have a 'private civil conversation with you for? No I think the damage gets done by constant irritating waffling by the likes of people like yourself - and no I'm not getting irritated, it'll take a bit more than that]
Me: 11 years as an operational fire fighter ( before disabled ) and what it entails will hopefully reserve my place in 'heaven' (if I'm wrong) to balance up my military 'bad bits'! [joke]
porshiepoo: When you pass over you'll only sit in judgement on yourself, no one does that for you. (my opinion!) [ok] You have worded what you suggest are your 'military bad bits' in such a way that one might think that I have made this comment to you in my pm. [no you didn't] I'm just making it clear that I have never suggested that your military record have any 'bad bits' to it at all. [yes that's true] You live your life as you see fit, that is what we're all here to do. [that's good, which means leave me alone?] Why would someone who steadfastly refuses to believe in the whole 'soul' concept or any life after death 'hope' they reserved a place in heaven????? [that's squaddie humour] Surely you can't be wrong Bigpete! [as you say above ("only your opinion"). Anyway, you are MUCH too serious porshiepoo, I actually could not give a fig for what you believe in, as I mentioned before we are permitted to have our various 'beliefs'. Be interesting if you -shock horror - are wrong, and, being fallible that may happen..
I'm off to kip, lets PLEASE get back to the main tread (second time of asking)
porshiepoo
12-Sep-06, 23:51
I'm off to kip, lets PLEASE get back to the main tread (second time of asking)[/QUOTE]
Go back to the original thread and actually trying reading the link that RockChick gave and maybe, just maybe, you'll be able to get your head around the fact that all the postings since are relevant. [disgust]
porshiepoo
13-Sep-06, 00:01
Porshiepoo - why so much hatred?
Hatred for who?
I can honestly say I don't feel hatred toward anyone. I actually quite enjoy reading other peoples beliefs or lack of.
If it's a reference to what I said about Jesus, theres no hatred there either, I didn't know this person if he did in fact exist, of which there's a good a chance that he did as didn't.
I personally find it hard to accept what is written in the bible, and yes I've read it!
I don't believe Jesus died for our sins, I believe he was crucified (accepted form of death in those days) for sins people believed he made.
In any religion, belief, faith etc, there is no right or wrong there is only opinion. What you base this opinion on is at your own discretion but I believe the real problems occur when we interpret our beliefs etc in such a way that it encourages death and destruction.
I'm not talking of armed forces in that sentence, they act in self defence or in defence of innocent people.
mostlyharmless
13-Sep-06, 01:01
I thought armed forces were there to protect our freedom to have opinion, not to be dictated to or have our very self worth and rights to choose taken away from us. Many have died in giving us the chance to have this sort of discussion.It would be a shame if we didn't use it .
Um, oooooooooooooooooooooooooook
I dont think im the right person to be posting here but hey, we all have views and opinions, the bible eh, well, being the age i am, and the world ive gron up in i simply believe it to be a nice thought
All in all being a science kinda guy, i dont see how people can still cling to the belief of "buit in 6 days then he had a rest" um............i dont think so, what about the dinosaurs, explain that, how did the velociraptors get on with all the sheep?!?!?!!? yes, not very well at all, the t-rex eating the goat in jurassic park, reckon theyd all be gone in no time
the bible seems to be complete fiction to me, i cant fathom seomeone js returning from the dead after so long, yet religion is everywhere, its what the majority of wars have been fought over, its what terrorists use to justify their means, it can be a good thing, but it can be a bad thing
There are all sorts of religions all over the world and they seem to be on the grow, so obviously someone is spinning it well
i have the upmost respect for religions , as i do for my buddy Canuck, its hard work, beautiful work even i could imagine, GAME ON AS CANUCK RULES (even if my speal seems to tear at them) , but personally it isnt for me
Not that anyone here really cares about a muso's opinion, i js thought id have my speal, apologies and thanks
:roll:
Lolabelle
13-Sep-06, 09:54
Lolabelle,
Whatever floats your boat - so the biblical day is about one billion years long? If 'god' made the world in six days no wonder he needed to rest on the seventh....
And you state "...but the first man that God had a relationship with." Does not the bible preach against man lying down with man?
Surely if 'god' was the compassionate, loving and forgiving 'god' that we are led to believe then come judgement day he would forgive even the infidels as they shuffle towards the white light. But no, according to Martin we will be directed to the door marked "HELL". I have this vision of a mailroom style sorting machine flipping a big flap left and right - "believer" and "infidel" - left for heaven, right for hell...
Or do we spend some time in purgatory expiating for our sins? And how do we atone? Are we required to do some sort of community service while in purgatory?
It's all very confusing.
And then there is the Flying Spaghetti Monster.....
Sorry this is a bit late in answering, my understanding of the whole judgement day thing is that there is actually no hell, I am sorry if this is contrary to somes beliefs, (and it is not the belief of even some of my church) these things are a bit iffy in my opinion. The bible refers to sheol and that means the grave. The english translation says hell in some instances, but the hebrew and greek words are the same as grave, hell, death. But it absolutely says that we will be answerable for our life. Jesus died as a perfect sacrifice for our sins, this is because in the old testament the children of Israel sacrificed different animals to atone for the sins each year. The sacrifices had to be the perfect unblemished of their flocks etc. So by Jesus being the sacrifice he was the only perfect man to be killed for the sins of everyone. I think that a lot of the religious misconceptions come from the mainline religions that are in some ways a mixture of old pagan religions and christianity. (Some of the stuff in Da Vinci Code is actually correct, not much mind you,lol). So the combinations come up with the pergatory and hell theme.
I am fortunate to belong to a church group that follows the bible as closely as we can, we believe in baptism by full emersion, baptism of the Holy Spirit with the bible evidence of speaking in tongues and repenting of our sins, which simply means to be sorry for and to change our way of thinking from our own opinions to the opinion of God. I think that any other way is a bit dicey and does not always have clear bible scriptual backing. I could be wrong, I don't presume to know everything about everything, but I know that the bible does set out the above pattern for "salvation". But only God knows the heart, and he tells us not to judge others, as the measure we use to judge each other, is the same measure He will use to judge us. So, I think that is dangerous ground to go a stomping on, and I would prefer not to judge anyone.
Ok, I hope that is understandable, at least that is what I have come to beleive as truth in the 17 years that I have been a bible student, so to speak.
PS, the other thing I like about my church, is that you are allowed to have differing opinions about the heaven and hell thing, but everyone is baptised and spirit filled.
Lolabelle
13-Sep-06, 10:03
Website for my church
www.trf.org.au (http://www.trf.org.au)
There is something called Bible Numerics that is quite interesting to look at, I am not sure how much info there is on the site, but I will have a look. Numerics help establish the authenticity of the Bible as God's word.
Dreadnought
13-Sep-06, 10:10
The only thing that can ever authenticate the Bible as 'God's word' is if this 'God' were to appear in a puff of smoke and say, 'Oi, you! I wrote that!'
Lolabelle
13-Sep-06, 10:12
The only thing that can ever authenticate the Bible as 'God's word' is if this 'God' were to appear in a puff of smoke and say, 'Oi, you! I wrote that!'
Lol, I believe he has, [lol]
The only thing that can ever authenticate the Bible as 'God's word' is if this 'God' were to appear in a puff of smoke and say, 'Oi, you! I wrote that!'
Dreadnought Ahhh yes it would but would we understand this apperition? What language would it use?
Dreadnought
13-Sep-06, 10:23
Where? I didn't see it. But then I don't believe in fairies, and pixies and geniis etc.
I have a sneaking admiration for anyone who goes into a bar starts an argument then quietly slips away from the crescendo of breaking furniture and blood on the floor.
Nice one and a good read!
Lolabelle
13-Sep-06, 11:24
Where? I didn't see it. But then I don't believe in fairies, and pixies and geniis etc.
www.trg.org.au (http://www.trg.org.au) - bible studies - bible numerics
www.trg.org.au (http://www.trg.org.au) - bible studies - bible numerics
Your link does not open?:(
Lolabelle
13-Sep-06, 11:49
Your link does not open?:(
http://www.trf.org.au/
sorry, I did a bit of a typo, try this one.:confused
BMcGillivray
13-Sep-06, 12:27
If it's a reference to what I said about Jesus, theres no hatred there either, I didn't know this person if he did in fact exist, of which there's a good a chance that he did as didn't.
It was my understanding that physical records had been found to show that a man of that name existed at that time, and in that area... and that science doesn't doubt he existed (which they can prove)... only doubted his divinity (which they cant prove).
martin macdonald
13-Sep-06, 16:47
It was my understanding that physical records had been found to show that a man of that name existed at that time, and in that area... and that science doesn't doubt he existed (which they can prove)... only doubted his divinity (which they cant prove).
hi! his divinity is proved in the bible:Razz
porshiepoo said:
"On the cross Jesus was crucified - end of - and further more he was crucified for his own sins, not ours."
Please stick to facts...this is your own fiction!
Jesus was sinless so He could not have been crucified for His own sins! If He had not been sinlessblah blah blah........
Stones, glass houses, black pots and kettles come to mind. :roll:
porshiepoo
14-Sep-06, 09:11
It was my understanding that physical records had been found to show that a man of that name existed at that time, and in that area... and that science doesn't doubt he existed (which they can prove)... only doubted his divinity (which they cant prove).
Probably a hundred and one others with the same name also! Were they all the son of god? Or just this one particular person that decided to go aginst the grain and talk openly about his religous beliefs?
I can quite understand how in those times his preachings, healing hands etc could be misconstrued as something more than what it was, but I don't understand the fear that many people have in letting go of an age old belief (The bible) and accepting it for what it really is (my opinion) - A fictional book.
Ask yourself, if you were about to be put to an agonising death and the only way out was to denounce a god, would you do it? I certainly would.
If you're a true believer and have absolute faith then surely it shouldn't matter what is verbally said? You're true faith will always be with you.
Jesus's faith was that his god would save him from death - he didn't - so does it not make more sense to realise that a god does not have this ability, so those that put the same faith in this same god now are also misguided?
I have to repeat again, Jesus was crucified for his own sins or at least the sins that he was thought to have committed at that time - not ours!
Crucifiction was the normal form of death in those times and others were crucified at the same time as Jesus, so why are they not put on the same pedestal as Jesus? Because their sins were not as spiritually motivated as Jesus'? What about any that were crucified wrongly maybe taking the blame for a sin they didn't commit? Are these people not to be worshipped? After all in theory they would have died because of the sins of others!
In my opinion, Jesus instilled a fear in people because of his preachings and the way in which he died. This fear would have escalated after his death when people claimed to have seen his ghost, many deciding then that all his talk of a vengeful god must be true therefore we must create records of Jesus' life in order to appease this vengeful god.
Lets assume for a minute that there is a life after death and there is a god. If this god wanted us all to worship it why not make sure we come to this life with a memory imprinted of it? Wouldn't that be simpler? What would be the point in putting us here if the end result every time had to be the worshipping of this god by everyone? Why not stick us all here with the memory of it and leave us all shrines to worship it at?
Could it not be that this spiritual entity actually has not control over our actions nor would want to? The same way a parent can only advise a child but in the end the child has to learn from their own experiences! Couldn't this be the ultimate aim - for us to learn by our own experiences? If so - is their really any point to the Bible?
BMcGillivray
14-Sep-06, 14:51
hi! his divinity is proved in the bible:Razz
Not in the eyes of science, i have faith, i believe in god, but not even im blind enough to think the bible is scientific proof of anything. So please, think before you post your delusional babble. You're the kind of person that gives those of us with faith a bad name.
If you read what i originally posted, you'll see i referred to "they" instead of "we", as its not how i see things, but the scientific minded of the world have an entirely different viewpoint than you, me, or anyone with faith in something that cannot be explained by science, they do not see the bible as proof of anything in the eyes of science, and therefore they see no proof of his divinity, because its simply something that cannot be "proven" in the eyes of science... they cant do tests in a lab, they cant see it, explain it with scientific terminology.
martin macdonald
14-Sep-06, 17:09
Not in the eyes of science, i have faith, i believe in god, but not even im blind enough to think the bible is scientific proof of anything. So please, think before you post your delusional babble. You're the kind of person that gives those of us with faith a bad name.
If you read what i originally posted, you'll see i referred to "they" instead of "we", as its not how i see things, but the scientific minded of the world have an entirely different viewpoint than you, me, or anyone with faith in something that cannot be explained by science, they do not see the bible as proof of anything in the eyes of science, and therefore they see no proof of his divinity, because its simply something that cannot be "proven" in the eyes of science... they cant do tests in a lab, they cant see it, explain it with scientific terminology.our ways are not gods ways and our thoughts are not gods thoughts. god laughs at people when they try and prove anything other than his word.to be true scientific proof included i know who i am trusting and its not man:Razz
BMcGillivray
15-Sep-06, 13:01
You really do like to speak nonsense dont you?
our ways are not gods ways and our thoughts are not gods thoughts. god laughs at people when they try and prove anything other than his word.
Do not preach your lies about our God, very seldom would God laugh at anyone, for he is understanding and benevolent. What you seem to ignore, is God was the first and greatest scientist, everything Scientists are now discovering and trying to understand, was designed and created by God, every mathematical formula, every law. Science and Religion can and should co-exist. Even scientists will admit that there are elements of the science behind the universe that cannot be fathomed by man.
to be true scientific proof included i know who i am trusting and its not man:Razz
Your words are hypocritical, for you are trusting the word of man by taking the word of a book written by the hand of man. We need no "book" to let the love of God into our hearts.
pultneytooner
15-Sep-06, 13:39
You really do like to speak nonsense dont you?You say martin talks nonsense, not very christian of you is it, maybe your understanding, benevolent god could teach you a thing or two about respecting other peoples views.
Do not preach your lies about our God, very seldom would God laugh at anyone, for he is understanding and benevolent.
So you say martin is a liar, how come his truth is less relevant than yours?
Very seldom would god laugh at anyone, how would you know and are you saying he laughs at people sometimes?
When does this benevolent god have his laugh then?
When someone has a baby only for it to die a few days later?
When he lets thousands of innocents die through starvation and disease?
When he lets people die through cancer and other diseases which if it was not for the advent morphine would die in excruciating pain.
What an understanding and benevolent god, what a guy!!![evil]
Even scientists will admit that there are elements of the science behind the universe that cannot be fathomed by man.
Not yet but they will in time.
Your words are hypocritical, for you are trusting the word of man by taking the word of a book written by the hand of man. We need no "book" to let the love of God into our hearts.
Without the bible you would never have known about god or jesus so obviously you did need a "book" to let the love of god into your heart so who is being hypocrytical???
porshiepoo
15-Sep-06, 14:04
When does this benevolent god have his laugh then?
When someone has a baby only for it to die a few days later?
When he lets thousands of innocents die through starvation and disease?
When he lets people die through cancer and other diseases which if it was not for the advent morphine would die in excruciating pain.
What an understanding and benevolent god, what a guy!!![evil]
Thats a cop out!
Yes babies die for unknown reasons but alot of still borns etc were simply not developed enough to survive outside the womb for whatever reason - some are simply unexplainable, while others are down to more man made explainations i.e substance abuse, abortion etc. All are extremely sad instances but can they really be laid at the feet of 'god'?
Starvation and disease? Again I fail to see how this could be an act of god.
Cancer and other diseases? Did god invent cigarettes? Or STD's (cause of cervical cancer)? Did god invent Aids and help in the circulation of this disease despite there being preventative measures?
I think not! What this 'god' did do was give us the ability to learn, love and teach and use that as we see fit.
Without the bible you would never have known about god or jesus so obviously you did need a "book" to let the love of god into your heart so who is being hypocrytical???[/quote]
Personally I believed in an afterlife (corny word) well before I had access to a bible.
Belief in an afterlife doesn't have to mean belief in the bible or in fact 'god'.
j4bberw0ck
15-Sep-06, 15:32
Even scientists will admit that there are elements of the science behind the universe that cannot be fathomed by man.
Yet.
In 100 years we've gone from the first powered flight of a few hundred feet to sending probes out of the Solar System. From a world where news might take days to travel a few hundred miles to where it's instantly available. From a simple electrical device to the mobile phone. From thinking of the universe as something completely unfathomable to understanding something about how much more wonderful and complex it may be - and having some ideas which stand up to experiment as to "how".
I'd venture to suggest that the rate of change of knowledge is such that if you could be plucked out of 2006 and put into the world of 2106, you'd need a guide with you even to be able to survive for a few minutes. You'd be like a 2 year old on a city street. Who knows what Man will understand by then?
BMcGillivray
15-Sep-06, 15:46
You say martin talks nonsense, not very christian of you is it, maybe your understanding, benevolent god could teach you a thing or two about respecting other peoples views.
Indeed, nobodys perfect. :) Everyone has qualities they could improve upon, its whether you can see it when people point it out and admit that they are there that makes the difference.
So you say martin is a liar, how come his truth is less relevant than yours?
Very seldom would god laugh at anyone, how would you know and are you saying he laughs at people sometimes?
Exceptional cases no doubt, but yes. Laughing at someone isn't always a negative act.
When does this benevolent god have his laugh then?
When someone has a baby only for it to die a few days later?
When he lets thousands of innocents die through starvation and disease?
When he lets people die through cancer and other diseases which if it was not for the advent morphine would die in excruciating pain.
What an understanding and benevolent god, what a guy!!![evil]
Thats rather unfair.
My view on this is (and this is my personal view, which anyones welcome to disagree with), our world would be very different, very primitive, if it wasn't the for hardships mankind face, through sadness, we can truly appreciate happiness... through the existance of evil, we understand what it is to be good. Through witnessing such pain, we've strived to find ways to help, through medicine, through science. We would have none of that, if God had stepped in and did everything for us, and he obviously wanted us to thrive, to understand, to gain the wisdom you can only gain through hardship.
People seem to think, if God stepped in, and righted every wrong, made a world where there was no pain, no evil, no injustice, that the world would be happy, perfect, good... it'd be empty, hollow, people would not achieve nearly as much as they do, because they wouldn't have anything to fight and struggle to change.
If you raise a child, and gave them everything they ever wanted, so that they would never have to "need", everything done and provided for them, they become spoilt, unable to fend for themselves, dependant on that, just look at the various rich kids, who do nothing with their lives as a result.
Mankind was granted the gift of intelligence, emotion, etc, the ability to become the civilization its become, that was a gift from God, he wanted us to take a specific Journey.
The very examples you've provided strike at our very hearts, resonates in our very soul as being something that should not be, every one of the examples you have made, have at some point inspired great men and women to fight and struggle to do everything they possibly can to stop them from occuring again. That in my eyes, is what God has done to make a difference, granted us the ability to make a difference, if we dare jump into the unknown with the faith that we can do something about it.
Not yet but they will in time.
Theres a lot that is still to be learnt, true :), but there are concepts within science that cannot be truly answered, infinity and non-existence related things, the nothingness before time, before the big bang, and how time and space started from non-existance (as Stephen Hawking said, asking what there was before the Big Bang, is like asking what is North of the North Pole, it cant be answered), what space is expanding into, etc.
But yes, given enough time, we may even be able to answer those, but for every question answered, another question is revealed, when it comes to hundreds of years in the future, when we've answered many questions that we currently couldn't fathom, they'd have their own unfathomable questions beyond their grasp, and that'd always be the case.
The day when mankind has the answers to every question, will be the day scientific progress dies, without unanswered questions civilization would become static.
For interests sake, i believe God had a hand in everything Science has stated, including the Big Bang, and yes, i believe in Evolution (but with a few helping hands here and there ;)), i believe animals have souls too, and various other things that make me not quite the standard "christian", but i never liked "boxes" and "labels" anyway.
Without the bible you would never have known about god or jesus so obviously you did need a "book" to let the love of god into your heart so who is being hypocrytical???
Spoken and written word have a large influence in everything and everyone, so of course people need such things in order for information to be shared, but the book does not make the religion, as books are penned by man, and men are not infallible, so the bible has to be taken with a pinch of salt.
martin macdonald
15-Sep-06, 16:37
You really do like to speak nonsense dont you?
Do not preach your lies about our God, very seldom would God laugh at anyone, for he is understanding and benevolent. What you seem to ignore, is God was the first and greatest scientist, everything Scientists are now discovering and trying to understand, was designed and created by God, every mathematical formula, every law. Science and Religion can and should co-exist. Even scientists will admit that there are elements of the science behind the universe that cannot be fathomed by man.
Your words are hypocritical, for you are trusting the word of man by taking the word of a book written by the hand of man. We need no "book" to let the love of God into our hearts.
all of the scriptures[bible ] is God breathed:Razz
BMcGillivray
15-Sep-06, 16:56
all of the scriptures[bible ] is God breathed:Razz
But put onto paper by Men, translated by Men, corrupted by Men. The original hebrew version is wildly different from the english-version common today, mistranslations and varying opinions on what the correct translation is.
But put onto paper by Men, translated by Men, corrupted by Men. The original hebrew version is wildly different from the english-version common today, mistranslations and varying opinions on what the correct translation is.
No need to be sexist BM, maybe the Men you refer to had wives, mothers or sisters that contributed to the Fairy Tale also [lol]
Dreadnought
15-Sep-06, 19:32
No need to be sexist BM, maybe the Men you refer to had wives, mothers or sisters that contributed to the Fairy Tale also [lol]
Were any of them blonde? http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/Minitar1/Smileys/bolt.gif
Golach, very a true couple of words !!! FAIRY TALE !
Dreadnought
15-Sep-06, 19:51
I think the Bible is a good read. It's quite raunchy in places, what with people begattin' each other left, right and centre! And then there's all those action scenes with wars and smiting and stuff. Great bit of pulp fiction!
Cancer and other diseases? Did god invent cigarettes? Or STD's (cause of cervical cancer)?
How dare you. Have you researched this 'fact'. Could you please quote where you get your facts because Cancer Research say that 99% of cervical cancer cases are associated with HPV. That is NOT 100%.
I have had cervical cancer and I have NEVER had an STD. Please get your facts right.
grumpyhippo
15-Sep-06, 21:38
the main truth is. do you believe that jesus christ was the son of God and he died for sinners like you and me and if we repent of our sin and trust him we will have life to the full.
NO
discuss
grumpyhippo
15-Sep-06, 21:55
How dare you. Have you researched this 'fact'. Could you please quote where you get your facts because Cancer Research say that 99% of cervical cancer cases are associated with HPV. That is NOT 100%.
I have had cervical cancer and I have NEVER had an STD. Please get your facts right.
Erli, I'm with you on that, HPV is a cause of cervical cancer, but cervical cancer can originate with no HPV connection. To call HPV an STD is a gross exaggeration and is no way to encouage women to attend screening.
The recently proposed vacination for HPV will help reduce cevical cancer rate but will not eliminate it.
Hope you are getting on ok with what ever treatment was need Erli.
pultneytooner
15-Sep-06, 22:55
Thats a cop out!
Yes babies die for unknown reasons but alot of still borns etc were simply not developed enough to survive outside the womb for whatever reason - some are simply unexplainable, while others are down to more man made explainations i.e substance abuse, abortion etc. All are extremely sad instances but can they really be laid at the feet of 'god'?
Starvation and disease? Again I fail to see how this could be an act of god.
Cancer and other diseases? Did god invent cigarettes? Or STD's (cause of cervical cancer)? Did god invent Aids and help in the circulation of this disease despite there being preventative measures?
I think not! What this 'god' did do was give us the ability to learn, love and teach and use that as we see fit.
Personally I believed in an afterlife (corny word) well before I had access to a bible.
Belief in an afterlife doesn't have to mean belief in the bible or in fact 'god'.
I didn't say he was responsible but if he existed then why would he allow it to happen, he's wise and benevolent, he looks after his children!
People develop cancer that have never smoked in their lives.
People develop cervical cancer, testicular cancer and never had an s.t.d.
Why would a benevolent god allow a child to be born with underdevoloped kidneys or with a heart defect or a kidney ddefect, he is supposed to be all powerful, he can prevent it.
As for aids and other viral diseases, they are lifeforms struggling with us for supremacy, this benevolent god could prevent that.
God never taught me anything about love, learning or using that knowledge to help other people, my parents did that, not some god.
You believed in an afterlife before you read a bible, that's not unusual but I'll say this, you must have learnt it from somewhere and follow that trail back and you'll probably end up at a bible.
Cedric Farthsbottom III
15-Sep-06, 23:22
I had two favourite books when I was 7.'When Dinosaurs Ruled the World' and a free Gideons Bible I got at primary school.Both very interesting reads.
Its not until ye get older that ye realise that they both have different meanings........Science v Religion.I'm not religious or a scientist(although a crackin tune by Coldplay),it causes a good argument though.
How dare you. Have you researched this 'fact'. Could you please quote where you get your facts because Cancer Research say that 99% of cervical cancer cases are associated with HPV. That is NOT 100%.
I have had cervical cancer and I have NEVER had an STD. Please get your facts right.
From Cancer Research
“Some types of HPV are linked to cervical cancer particularly numbers 16, 18, 30 and 33. They are called high risk because just about all cervical cancers are positive for high risk HPV. This association is so strong that scientists in this area think that the very small number of cervical cancers that test negatively for HPV have come about because there was a problem with the HPV testing, rather than because the infection wasn't there in the first place. “
http://www.cancerhelp.org.uk/help/default.asp?page=5193
From The Medical Research Council
“Cervical cancer could be aggravated by a hormone-like molecule found in semen called prostaglandin. Researchers also found that the high concentration of prostaglandin in semen makes other diseases of the female reproductive organs worse - including uterine cancer.”
http://www.mrc.ac.uk/public_press_01_08_2006b
porshiepoo
16-Sep-06, 09:19
How dare you. Have you researched this 'fact'. Could you please quote where you get your facts because Cancer Research say that 99% of cervical cancer cases are associated with HPV. That is NOT 100%.
I have had cervical cancer and I have NEVER had an STD. Please get your facts right.
http://www.cdc.gov/std/HPV/what_is.gif
Genital HPV infection (http://www.cdc.gov/std/HPV/default.htm) is a sexually transmitted disease (STD) that is caused by human papillomavirus (HPV). Human papillomavirus is the name of a group of viruses that includes more than 100 different strains or types. More than 30 of these viruses are sexually transmitted, and they can infect the genital area of men and women including the skin of the penis, vulva (area outside the vagina), or anus, and the linings of the vagina, cervix, or rectum. Most people who become infected with HPV will not have any symptoms and will clear the infection on their own.
Some of these viruses are called "high-risk" types, and may cause abnormal Pap tests. They may also lead to cancer of the cervix, vulva, vagina, anus, or penis. Others are called "low-risk" types, and they may cause mild Pap test abnormalities or genital warts. Genital warts are single or multiple growths or bumps that appear in the genital area, and sometimes are cauliflower shaped.
Go look on the website 'centre for disease control and prevention'.[disgust]
porshiepoo
16-Sep-06, 09:28
[quote=grumpyhippo;134747]Erli, I'm with you on that, HPV is a cause of cervical cancer, but cervical cancer can originate with no HPV connection. To call HPV an STD is a gross exaggeration and is no way to encouage women to attend screening.
Maybe I should have said that cervical cancer can be caused by an STD.
That is NOT a gross exaggeration, it's a fact. Might not be a very nice fact or thought but there it is all the same.
Most women at some point in their life will contract a strain of HPV from having intercourse, thankfully in most cases our bodies are able to fight off the infection. However there are some cases which develop into cervical cancer although an STD infection is not the only way that cervical cancer develops.
If we bury our head in the sand with this subject because the stigma we have attached isn't very nice that personally I think we'd be letting our daughters down. The fact that a STD can cause cervical cancer needs to be known by everyone in order to encourage our children to have smear tests (awful procedure - and one I avoided until a few years ago) and to take precautions in relationships.
Erli- I'm sorry my post angered you so much. I currently have a family member fighting this disease - she's only 23, extremely rare at that age - she starts chemo and radiotherapy in the next couple of weeks.
I myself had an abnormal smear test a while ago - extremely worrying - thankfully it was normal 6 months later.
I hope your treatment has worked and that you are now well and healthy.
Did anyone go to the talk??
rockchick
19-Sep-06, 06:40
Did anyone go to the talk??
After much deliberation, I decided to stay away. They probably didn't need any hecklers in the audience, and there wasn't much chance they would sway my views on the subject, especially after reading the guck that they had on their website. Just wasn't worth the drive to Wick!
Did anyone go to the talk??
I was there.
I'm prejudiced though so almost everything the guy said was contrary to how I see things so I couldna comment without appearing disrespectful.
One thing I will say is, if stuff like that is going to be taught to children as science, then the education authority via the council has a need to look more closely at the stuation.
Niall Fernie
21-Sep-06, 16:32
There has already been a very close call in the US:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10545387/
These people scare me far more than any of the other fanatics that have been discussed on here recently. No doubt they will try again in a few years.
Dreadnought
21-Sep-06, 17:53
Here's a scarey one. Most interns serving in the US Government come from Patrick Henry College. Here is Patrick Henry College's 'about us' page (http://www.phc.edu/about/default.asp).
I don't want to get dragged into another evolution v creation debate, but evolution is a big pile of steaming tripe.
Wow I do feel better after that.....:)
lassieinfife
21-Sep-06, 18:08
i believe that the bible is absolute truth from God from start of genesis to the end of revelation. i would believe God and trust God first and foremost.God does no tell lies. unlike men:Razz Jesus is the answer....
did god write the bible word for word or did that wee lying toad man have a hand in it???????
I don't want to get dragged into another evolution v creation debate, but evolution is a big pile of steaming tripe.
Wow I do feel better after that.....:)
I don't want to be dragged into another evolution v creation debate, but the creation theory is a big pile of steaming tripe.
Wow I feel no different LOL:D
Dreadnought
21-Sep-06, 18:26
I believe in creation.... and genies... and fairies... and pixies... and leprechauns... oh! and the man in the moon! (which, by the way, is made of cheese!) and the sandman... and I never pull faces in case the windchanges and I get stuck like it... I never eat the pips in an apple cos they'll grow into a tree in my stomach...
pultneytooner
21-Sep-06, 18:30
I don't want to get dragged into another evolution v creation debate, but evolution is a big pile of steaming tripe.
Wow I do feel better after that.....:)
Couldn't things have been created then evolved?:D
I notice a section in the Editorial of the New Scientist(9th September 2006) which states that it is not enough that a scientific theory to explain what we see: it must also make testable predictions.
In the latest example of the predictive power of evolution, researchers set out to find fossil evidence of the fishes that first moved onto land. Combining the pricciples of evolution with previous folssil finds told them when the fishes should have lived, thus giving the age of the rocks that should harbour them. The researchers located where such rocks existed and went digging. The spectacular result is Tiktaalik roseae, an almost perfect intermediate between fish and amphibians.
Apologies, as some of the above should be in italics etc as it is quoted verbatim from the editorial - I just dont know the commands etc for BOLD, ITALICS etc......or smilies for that matter.
I don't want to be dragged into another evolution v creation debate, but the creation theory is a big pile of steaming tripe.
Fully agree with you Gleeber2
What about the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster? You have all been touched by his noodly appendage...
There was an interesting programme on one of the Sky Discovery Channels a couple of days ago.
The person presenting it put forward a very good argument for having traced the location of Eden to an area in Kurdistan.
He used descriptions from Genesis and various other ancient texts such as The Epic of Gilgamesh etc. from Babylon and similar places in the area to locate it.
I am assuming that the quotes he used were genuine.
His explanation of the timing of what is described in Genesis is that it falls around the same time as the first settlements in the Middle East when humans changed from hunter-gatherers to the first farmers.
According to Bishop Ussher, the Primate of all Ireland in the 1600s, Earth was created Sunday 23 Oct 4004 BC at 9am.
He calculated the date by counting back through the generations in the Bible, though how he arrived at the exact day and, more especially at 9 a.m. I can't imagine.
The explanation given for Adam is that he was possibly just a notable person from that period who just happened to be remembered and spoken about by following generations.
If that sounds fanciful then bear in mind that the stories of Vikings having travelled as far as America was rubbished until quite recently. It was only when somebody dug up one of their settlements that it became accepted that the Sagas of the voyages were not simply fiction.
Apologies, as some of the above should be in italics etc as it is quoted verbatim from the editorial - I just dont know the commands etc for BOLD, ITALICS etc......or smilies for that matter.On this occasion you are forgiven. Should the same occur again your punishment will be to "try, try, try again" until you find out how to do it. ;)
When you have succeeded you are then obliged to inform me so I will know too! [lol]
I don't want to get dragged into another evolution v creation debate, but evolution is a big pile of steaming tripe.
Wow I do feel better after that.....:)
I know what you mean because I had a similar experience at the show on Monday night.;)
Science is science. It has no connection with religion apart from trying to explain the phenomenon of belief.
We believe what we believe and science has never said there is no God. Only scientists say that.
Yersel and Gleber dont give evolution any credence and i choost canna see why. It's so obvious lol.
I don't want to get dragged into another evolution v creation debate, but evolution is a big pile of steaming tripe.
Wow I do feel better after that.....:)
Tripe?? how do you figure? Things change, they evolve: That is evolution. Breading dogs and horses is a form of evolution. People change in each generation, that is a form of evolution. In the evolution world life spans of people in the west have greatly increased and that is not just due to medicine? People have gotten taller and that is not just true of diet. That is all evolution. Weather is is God at the helm or his/her rules being played out or a freak of science/ nature people are changing and evolving and it is right before your eyes. The chances are you are taller than your parents, who are taller than their parents: evolution.
I realise the Old Testament is more about Devolution (is that the opposite of evolution?) or how else you you explain the change in life span and apparent general health. By the Old Testament view Things have gone downhill since man was in Eden. I know there is that whole fortunate fall thing in Christ's salvation but that aside (I know it is a big but, but I'm being a bit trite on purpose) the lot of man in the physical plane has really gone down hill. having to wear clothes, shorter lifespan, after being kicked out of Eden having to mix will all those other people (where did they come from?) roaming around the earth, (did I mention shorter lifespan?), oh and all the other other problems that ail us having been kicked out of Eden.
Where did those changes come from if it was not a form of evolution/devolution. The Bible is full of change from the state of man to how God has changed. It has evolved in its view of the world so are you now saying you don't believe in it?
I could go on but....
Just my two cents/pence.
Cedric Farthsbottom III
23-Sep-06, 00:12
Do I believe in God......yes.Do I believe in science......yes.I believe in God because I believe in every ray of hope in this world there is something good for us all to have.
Science has given me the world of dinosaurs,and now the Siberian Ice plates are melting more secrets are being revealed.Do I believe in the Bible.....no...because in my opinion it was written by men.
The Bible is a book,so is Harry Potter.God is a man who can see ye for what ye are.Ye don't have to go to church every Sunday because he knows ye already.I have spoken to him many a time and hopefully he has listened.I think he has cos ma life is bliss.
Folk go to church on a Sunday to praise God.I praise the man 7 days a week because he has given me what I have.:D
I know what you mean because I had a similar experience at the show on Monday night.;)
Science is science. It has no connection with religion apart from trying to explain the phenomenon of belief.
We believe what we believe and science has never said there is no God. Only scientists say that.
Yersel and Gleber dont give evolution any credence and i choost canna see why. It's so obvious lol.
Not all scientist say that.... ;)
Tripe?? how do you figure? Things change, they evolve: That is evolution. Breading dogs and horses is a form of evolution. People change in each generation, that is a form of evolution. In the evolution world life spans of people in the west have greatly increased and that is not just due to medicine? People have gotten taller and that is not just true of diet. That is all evolution. Weather is is God at the helm or his/her rules being played out or a freak of science/ nature people are changing and evolving and it is right before your eyes. The chances are you are taller than your parents, who are taller than their parents: evolution.
I realise the Old Testament is more about Devolution (is that the opposite of evolution?) or how else you you explain the change in life span and apparent general health. By the Old Testament view Things have gone downhill since man was in Eden. I know there is that whole fortunate fall thing in Christ's salvation but that aside (I know it is a big but, but I'm being a bit trite on purpose) the lot of man in the physical plane has really gone down hill. having to wear clothes, shorter lifespan, after being kicked out of Eden having to mix will all those other people (where did they come from?) roaming around the earth, (did I mention shorter lifespan?), oh and all the other other problems that ail us having been kicked out of Eden.
Where did those changes come from if it was not a form of evolution/devolution. The Bible is full of change from the state of man to how God has changed. It has evolved in its view of the world so are you now saying you don't believe in it?
I could go on but....
Just my two cents/pence.
There is a vast difference between what you are describing and one species turning into another species. :)
Cedric Farthsbottom III
23-Sep-06, 01:09
Watch the cool Guiness adverts wi the sense o' humour I enjoy.The wee mud guy wi his tongue stuck on the ice.This is the reason we are here today.But God does exist....cos if he didnae we would all be the same.The org shows that he does,differing opinions but all good at heart.:D
There must be a God because scientifically I cannot have my life which has been a one off experiment the results of which cannot be reproduced and tested by others.
Once I point that fact out to people who know me they immediately become "Believers" because they invariably wander off muttering, "Thank God for that!" :eek:
Cedric Farthsbottom III
23-Sep-06, 01:50
God is the belief ye live in.Life is good,GOD.Life is Bad,SATAN.
PISH
Live life in the way ye feel ye want to.:D
rockchick
23-Sep-06, 10:36
There is a vast difference between what you are describing and one species turning into another species. :)
Actually, no, there isn't. The difference between genetic modifications and changes in DNA is merely the size of the "jump", or how much of the genetic code is changed. Mutations happen every day, millions of them. The immense multitude are minor, and do not benefit the chance of survival, so they die off. However, every so often a mutation occurs which enhances one's chance of survival, and these are the mutations that live on to reproduce. The new strains of anti-biotic resistant bacteria are probably the best example of this occurring naturally in recent years.
There are babies born all the time that are different from their parents; as an example look at Down Syndrome babies. They have a different number of chromosomes than their parents - a mutation. If that particular mutation had the effect of making them smarter, or faster, or gave them ESP, then they would be more likely to survive than non-Down Syndrome babies. If they started to reproduce with each other, perhaps another mutation would occur with another change that gave the resulting baby an even stronger chance of survival...this can go on ad infinitum, until the original species cannot reproduce with the final species...and you have evolution.
Granted, it's not likely to happen in 6000 years; these changes take time.
The other possibility is a huge jump - parents give birth to a massive mutation, "something" that isn't recognizable as human, but it is capable of life and has the ability to survive. Chances are, as humans, we'd kill it, as we don't like anything that's different to ourselves, but it is theoretically possible.
Actually, no, there isn't. The difference between genetic modifications and changes in DNA is merely the size of the "jump", or how much of the genetic code is changed. Mutations happen every day, millions of them. The immense multitude are minor, and do not benefit the chance of survival, so they die off. However, every so often a mutation occurs which enhances one's chance of survival, and these are the mutations that live on to reproduce. The new strains of anti-biotic resistant bacteria are probably the best example of this occurring naturally in recent years.
Yeah but they are still bacteria. Call me back when they turn into a mouse. ;)
There are babies born all the time that are different from their parents; as an example look at Down Syndrome babies. They have a different number of chromosomes than their parents - a mutation. If that particular mutation had the effect of making them smarter, or faster, or gave them ESP, then they would be more likely to survive than non-Down Syndrome babies. If they started to reproduce with each other, perhaps another mutation would occur with another change that gave the resulting baby an even stronger chance of survival...this can go on ad infinitum, until the original species cannot reproduce with the final species...and you have evolution.
Granted, it's not likely to happen in 6000 years; these changes take time.
The other possibility is a huge jump - parents give birth to a massive mutation, "something" that isn't recognizable as human, but it is capable of life and has the ability to survive. Chances are, as humans, we'd kill it, as we don't like anything that's different to ourselves, but it is theoretically possible.
I'm afraid it's not possible theoretically or otherwise.
Cats give birth to cats. Dogs to dogs. Humans to humans. Mutations don't produce changes in species to the extent that it changes to another species of animal, they never have and they never will.
There is a vast difference between what you are describing and one species turning into another species. :)
Why not? Small changes make big ones. One snowflake becomes an avalanche
Draw a line. Draw another line off the end of that one. Now join up the other two ends
Small steps and a line is a triangle.
You are very different from your parents and your grandparents etc
You are probably taller, with a larger cranium. At what point are you still the same as that which has come before you? Enought changes and you are different.
If you like, God created the world in seven God day. Plenty of time for things to evolve or devolve as I Pointed out earlier.
I think we need to give God credit that if God created the world God would have enough sense to set up a world that can run, adapt and evolve on its own.
rockchick
23-Sep-06, 20:38
Yeah but they are still bacteria. Call me back when they turn into a mouse. ;) .
Doubt you'd be alive in 2 million years, but sure, if you like...
I'm afraid it's not possible theoretically or otherwise.
Cats give birth to cats. Dogs to dogs. Humans to humans. Mutations don't produce changes in species to the extent that it changes to another species of animal, they never have and they never will.
Well, not exactly.
If you cross a horse (Equus caballus - 64 chromosomes) with an donkey (Equus asinus - 62 chromosomes), you get a mule, or a hinny. The offspring has 63 chromosomes...New species. As they have 63 chromosomes, which don't divide easily, mules are normally sterile, so can't breed, although a few have been known to have offspring. The fact remains that two different species (horse and donkey) can breed together shows that (a) they ARE distantly related and (b) have changed enough so that they can't reproduce their own kind. What if mules were superior to either the horse or the donkey? well, then you'd have a new, dominant species. This is only one instance - if you extrapolate the odds over the millions of years that reproduction is going on, sooner or later, someone is going to win the Darwin lottery and mutation will pay off big time.
Dreadnought
23-Sep-06, 22:38
Jesus lives! (http://www.boreme.com/boreme/funny-2006/jesus-the-musical-p1.php).
Doubt you'd be alive in 2 million years, but sure, if you like...
Well, not exactly.
If you cross a horse (Equus caballus - 64 chromosomes) with an donkey (Equus asinus - 62 chromosomes), you get a mule, or a hinny. The offspring has 63 chromosomes...New species. As they have 63 chromosomes, which don't divide easily, mules are normally sterile, so can't breed, although a few have been known to have offspring. The fact remains that two different species (horse and donkey) can breed together shows that (a) they ARE distantly related and (b) have changed enough so that they can't reproduce their own kind. What if mules were superior to either the horse or the donkey? well, then you'd have a new, dominant species. This is only one instance - if you extrapolate the odds over the millions of years that reproduction is going on, sooner or later, someone is going to win the Darwin lottery and mutation will pay off big time.
:lol: OK maybe species isn't the right word. Mules can't breed. This is varation within a family, caused by interbreeding. It is not the evolving of a genus into a higher, more intelligent genus.
Well, not exactly.
If you cross a horse (Equus caballus - 64 chromosomes) with an donkey (Equus asinus - 62 chromosomes), you get a mule, or a hinny. The offspring has 63 chromosomes...New species. As they have 63 chromosomes, which don't divide easily, mules are normally sterile, so can't breed,
All that tells me is that two animals, both "equid" can be bred together and produce another equid animal. If I look at a horse, a pony, a donkey or a zebra for that matter I see a very distinct "kind" of animal. I believe the correct word would be genus.
Its me again. The link Dreadnought shared with the forum is just awful. Probably very funny to lots of you but for me and all Christians it is blasphemous and mocks Jesus. I am not going to accept Niall's "pat on the head" (he knows what I mean) and just take it. I love Jesus and will continue to stand up for Him here.
martin macdonald
24-Sep-06, 13:46
Its me again. The link Dreadnought shared with the forum is just awful. Probably very funny to lots of you but for me and all Christians it is blasphemous and mocks Jesus. I am not going to accept Niall's "pat on the head" (he knows what I mean) and just take it. I love Jesus and will continue to stand up for Him here.:D well said
changilass
24-Sep-06, 14:07
I am sure from being forced to go to sunday school as a kid that there is something about turning the other cheek>
I also found this:
From the Bible, Luke 23:
23:33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.
23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
23:35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.
Instead of constantly complaining that others do not accept what you are saying, why not practice what your God preaches.
I am sorry if you think I am being a bit harsh here, but I hate having religion forced down my throat.
There are others on this site that are very religious and still don't feel the need to do this. One in particular will know who I am talking about, and I have to say I appreciate that members restraint.
I am sure from being forced to go to sunday school as a kid that there is something about turning the other cheek>
Instead of constantly complaining that others do not accept what you are saying, why not practice what your God preaches.
I am sorry if you think I am being a bit harsh here, but I hate having religion forced down my throat.
There are others on this site that are very religious and still don't feel the need to do this. One in particular will know who I am talking about, and I have to say I appreciate that members restraint.
Changi, I am with you 100% on this, I am an Agnostic, and I do not hijack message boards, telling everyone that I am the only right person on CCWS, I too am sick to death of the evangelists ramming Christianity in my face here.
I am sure there must be Orger's that are of other religions than Christianity, and if I was one, I would certainly be offended, and would complain to the Admin.
When have I been offensive? Am I not allowed to share my feelings or state my opinion like the rest of you?
Threads about religion always end up like this. That's why I never, ever get involved in them.....er.....oops..:p
This thread is all about a matter of opinion and no-one is sure to be right. If stating one's opinions can be construed as "ramming it down some-one's throat" then the purpose of an open forum is being negated. If you don't like some-one elses beliefs and opinions then the answer is quite obvious, don't read them. The dyed in the wool Christians have as much right to a platform as those agnostics and atheists and do not deserve to be made to feel in the wrong because they have stated their beliefs. A little bit of charity and understanding would go a long way to making this message board a nicer place.
Kaishowing
24-Sep-06, 17:07
....the purpose of an open forum is being negated. If you don't like some-one elses beliefs and opinions then the answer is quite obvious, don't read them..
I question how 'open' a forum is when threads vanish when they bruise some feelings or don't happen to coincide with the opinions of a moderator.
I can understand some moderation for swearing...but otherwise it's a gag on freedom of speech.
As for this particular issue, I'm not a Christian.....my personal beliefs would be termed as 'alternative' by most Christians...I have no objection whatsoever with them stating their beliefs.....what I DO object to however, is a majority of Christians not letting other people have the same freedom of belief that they seem to regard as their holy right.
Me, I’m pedantic and I have problems with the meaning of words and their context.
I consider myself Christian, I am not sure whether I am a Christian or not though.
I believe in faith.
I believe in hope.
I believe in charity.
I consider them to be the cornerstones of my life.
I think there is a greater being, I am not sure if we are made in its image, but there is so much that appears structured, organized and planned for things to have occurred by chance.
I do not think that the literal account of creationism as detailed in the Bible (KJV) is realistic, there may be some truth in there but like all stories it gets some arms and legs added on over the years.
Anyone who accepts anything blindly and at face value will end up getting hurt. I just don’t want to be the one to inflict the hurt.
rockchick
24-Sep-06, 17:52
Hear hear! well put, Scotsboy!!!
All that tells me is that two animals, both "equid" can be bred together and produce another equid animal. If I look at a horse, a pony, a donkey or a zebra for that matter I see a very distinct "kind" of animal. I believe the correct word would be genus.
So we agree. They did change, they evolved it may not have worked but they did it. Darwin's finches evolved and adapted to change as well. Good traits carry on bad traits tend to be weeded out (like the mules not being able to breed).
Humans are going the same way like the finches desirable traits become dominant such as increases in height etc. At the same time humans also seem to be like the mule and are devolving in the same way. We have the ages of humans in the Bible living to 500 years or more but we have devolved to an average of around 72 years. To make matters worse men are starting to become less fertile than they were.
Does that mean men are mules? (women don’t answer ) No but it does mean things change.
I have enough confidence or faith in God that if God created the world, God is smart enough to set up systems for the world and the creatures within to correct itself /themselves without God's intervention: Systems that could adapt to change and evolve to meet new situations.
The offspring was different to its parents is what we agree on yes. However they did not evolve, they simply produced a variation of a kind. Two uquid animals produced a third equid animal. They did not produce for example a canine. The theories of evolution are not just about variation in a kind/species/genus of animal, they state that one kind/species/genus turned into a different one, that reptiles for example became birds. That is where we totally disagree.
The offspring was different to its parents is what we agree on yes. However they did not evolve, they simply produced a variation of a kind. Two uquid animals produced a third equid animal. They did not produce for example a canine. The theories of evolution are not just about variation in a kind/species/genus of animal, they state that one kind/species/genus turned into a different one, that reptiles for example became birds. That is where we totally disagree.
No has ever said it occures in one day or one mating. Given enough time and enough small changes there is no reason it would or could not occur. As I said before God is cleaver enough to design a world that can take care of itself.
God said the animals were created according to their kinds, in Genesis God says plainly that He created everything from vegetation to sea creatures to flying creatures, according to their kind. He filled the earth with variety during the creative days, he did not create a soup or a sea animal expecting that to evolve into the multitudes of life we have. It says he created them all according to their kinds.
I have not read the whole of this thread so I apologise if I am repeating anything. However, on the 24th October 2004 The Royal Geological Society held a celebratory dinner at 6:00 pm to mar the fact that the earth was then 6000 years old according to James Ussher. Now is it only me that thinks 4004BC to 2004AD is 6008 years and also did BST exist in 4004BC.
If you don't like some-one elses beliefs and opinions then the answer is quite obvious, don't read them.
I would disagree Gleber2, are we not entitled to view others opinions? If this is the case, why have these forums?
Everyone is entitled to their own view on religion and should not be judged because they don't share the same beliefs.
Nobody should be told their beliefs are wrong.
I personally have nothing against anyone because of their religion and I have the greatest of respect for the woman who came to my door to speak to me about her religion and walked away when I said I wasn't interested - I have my beliefs - I keep them to myself.
However, as a teenager walking down a street in Glasgow, I did take offence to a women trying to force her religion on me - not allowing me to walk away until I'd taken reading material from her.
I have no interest in changing my beliefs because they are different from others. I judge people on themselves, not their religion.
Its disappointing that this thread has been reduced to a slagging match (IMO). Peoples views should be taken as that - their views.
I have not read the whole of this thread so I apologise if I am repeating anything. However, on the 24th October 2004 The Royal Geological Society held a celebratory dinner at 6:00 pm to mar the fact that the earth was then 6000 years old according to James Ussher. Now is it only me that thinks 4004BC to 2004AD is 6008 years and also did BST exist in 4004BC.
Yeah, Ussher claimed Earth was created at nightfall preceding 23 October, 4004 BC - I think the RGS were probably having a bit of fun at the expense of the Creationists.....
I would disagree Gleber2, are we not entitled to view others opinions? If this is the case, why have these forums?
Its disappointing that this thread has been reduced to a slagging match (IMO). Peoples views should be taken as that - their views.
We essentially agree. It was the statement "rammed down peoples throats" that annoyed me. Everyone entitiled to an opinion and everyone reading other people's opinions is fine if the other persons opinion is treated with respect even though you totally disagree with it.
Niall Fernie
25-Sep-06, 12:48
Everyone entitiled to an opinion and everyone reading other people's opinions is fine if the other persons opinion is treated with respect even though you totally disagree with it.
Effectively thats how I have tried to moderate the forum, threads like this in particular. I've had a couple of complaints about this thread from christians who feel offended by the way some people describe their religion and its teachings. Its always going to be a tender subject for some people just like other topics may be close to the heart of others but if the above sentiment is taken on board by all sides of a discussion there is no reason why any topic cannot be discussed in an adult fashion on a forum like this one.
It should also be realised that trivialising the beliefs of others can be quite hurtful and while I'm not suggesting that people do not put their point of view across, it might be a good idea to look at how the point is worded. It will probably do more for the debate rather than entrenching people in a position that they feel they can no longer verbalise for fear of ridicule. Saves me from fending off complaints as well :)
Very wise words from Gleber2 and Niall Fernie.
Lets hope the slagging match stops and sensible discussions follow.
pultneytooner
25-Sep-06, 13:19
Where did the 7million year old fossilised human come from if the earth is only 6000 year old?
We essentially agree. It was the statement "rammed down peoples throats" that annoyed me. Everyone entitiled to an opinion and everyone reading other people's opinions is fine if the other persons opinion is treated with respect even though you totally disagree with it.
I find it amusing that Gleber2 has a pagan symbol as an avatar and a signature related to the Devil, all in a thread about christian beliefs!!![lol]
I also had a chuckle at this Flame Warrior (http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warriorshtm/atheist.htm)....
Kaishowing
25-Sep-06, 14:24
I also had a chuckle at this Flame Warrior (http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warriorshtm/atheist.htm)....
Just wondering who you would cast in each role?? (Without wanting to initiate a 'Bliss Ninny' conflict! LOL)
Great site thank you. Nice to know stereotypes are so-called for a reason! LOL
It is a very amusing site - the profiles of the various warriors are sometimes a little too close for comfort!
Credit to Donnie for digging this one up - 2716...
I find it amusing that Gleber2 has a pagan symbol as an avatar and a signature related to the Devil, all in a thread about christian beliefs!!![lol]
...
The Green man may well be a pagan symbol but I like it. Where does my signature mention the Devil. Who, in their right minds could give credence to St. John the Mushroom eater. Anyway the beast might not be the devil and anyway, I just claim to be his neighbour. BTW way, this thread was a debate on the age of the World which degenerated into an argument about Christian beliefs. One wonders, though, how three plus billion people could be wrong. I will keep an open mind and next to the Green Man and The Beast I will hang a Crucifix right way up.
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.