Beware of idiot in a white van!

[Ash]

I am soo angry.... yesterday myself and hubby were coming out of Lidl and we were both half way across the zebra crossing and a man in a white van came tearing round the corner and just missed my hubby, his window was down and my hubby loudly said dont mind us..... two seconds later he starts hurling abusive words at us(whilst still in his van and still driving) we never got his reg plate sadfully as i would have reported him, thankfully my 7 year old wasnt with us as his language was very abusive!![evil]

[NickInTheNorth]

Ash, which Lidl? Where's the zebra crossing?

[chaz]

think thurso one has a crossing?

[pmcd]

Ash, if you're a believer in Karma (should it be CARma?) - what goes around comes around - then you'll be pleased to know that in three weeks time the white van man in question will be attempting the same manoeuvre outside Lidl, but this time will cross the path of a normally peaceful "Iron Man" from Partick. Here, Our Hero (not!) will have the basics of good manners and the need to control his tongue explained to him in extremely severe terms which may involve hospitalisation. This may be the lesson he so urgently needs, if he is to take his due place in society.

Until then, although the rule of "sticks and stones" may apply, I believe you may, without need to apologise, consider this oxygen thief to be lower in the scheme of things than a snake's posterior, with the brain of an amoeba, the moral standing of Fred Goodwin, and the temper of the knuckletrailing brat that he actually is.

Which should bring some measure of comfort, and perhaps even a little retributive smile.......

[John Little]

What is it about White van men? So many like that.

[Walter Ego]

Where have they put this Zebra crossing? I don't recall seeing one near Lidls last time I was there?:confused

Take heart from the fact that he hadn't the guts to stop and start hurling abuse, they very rarely do in my experience.

[John Little]

LOL. Walter - You just reminded me of when I was cycling across Vauxhall Bridge and got cut up by a white van which then had to stop at red lights. I cycled up and asked if he always drove like that?

The slob got aggressive and shouted 'You wanna make something of it?'

I said - 'Okay let's do it' and got off my bike.

Staying in his van he looked me up and down and said 'Ooooh - you're a big boy aren't you?' just as the lights changed and he drove off leaving me fuming in the middle of the road.

[Ash]

Where have they put this Zebra crossing? I don't recall seeing one near Lidls last time I was there?:confused

Take heart from the fact that he hadn't the guts to stop and start hurling abuse, they very rarely do in my experience.


there is one when you go towards the petrol station...... big black and white stripes..... lol

[NickInTheNorth]

Ah, that one, with no legal status whatsoever, it's just a bit of paint in the car park, but that does not excuse such stupid and dangerous behaviour from the idiot driver.

I was wondering how I'd not noticed a zebra crossing anywhere near Lidl, the only one I could think of in Thurso is the one across at springpark just up from the coop.

[tonkatojo]

Ah, that one, with no legal status whatsoever, it's just a bit of paint in the car park, but that does not excuse such stupid and dangerous behaviour from the idiot driver.

I was wondering how I'd not noticed a zebra crossing anywhere near Lidl, the only one I could think of in Thurso is the one across at springpark just up from the coop.

It doesn't need legal status, any pedestrian has right of way once on the road as do animals horses etc. No doubt I will be wrong I usually am.:(

[annemarie482]

What is it about White van men? So many like that.


wonder if it was the same (insert your own nasty word) in a white van that smashed our wingmirror off the car, hitting and scratching our drivers window, just north of golspie the other week..........
shook the whole car as the van was speeding and over the white line, needless to say the idiot never stopped [disgust][evil]
theres no way he didnt know he'd hit us as our car is huge! and the wing mirror like a dinner plate! lol cost just short of £300 to fix the wing mirror alone! :eek:

[northener]

It doesn't need legal status, any pedestrian has right of way once on the road as do animals horses etc. No doubt I will be wrong I usually am.:(


Guess what, Tonks.....:Razz

'Zebra' crossings in car parks are not covered by the Road Traffic Act, so no punitive measures could be taken in court for someone failing to give way to someone on the crossing..or even parking on top of it. The police and traffic wardens have no jurisdiction in a private car park to enforce traffic law (IIRC). That's why you never see the traffic warden in Tesco's/Co-op/Lidl car park (unless he's doing his shopping..obviously). At best, the ones in carparks should be treated as a courtesy at best...tread with caution....at worst they are a meaningless paint marking on the tarmac.

Treat the ones in car parks as dodgy, some people are too ignorant to let anyone cross and some people don't even see the markings.

I saw a cracker in Tescos car park a couple of years ago - the car driver certainly got his come uppance for his pig headed and selfish behaviour. I'll tell youse later...:Razz

[tonkatojo]

Guess what, Tonks.....:Razz

'Zebra' crossings in car parks are not covered by the Road Traffic Act, so no punitive measures could be taken in court for someone failing to give way to someone on the crossing..or even parking on top of it. The police and traffic wardens have no jurisdiction in a private car park to enforce traffic law (IIRC). That's why you never see the traffic warden in Tesco's/Co-op/Lidl car park (unless he's doing his shopping..obviously). At best, the ones in carparks should be treated as a courtesy at best...tread with caution....at worst they are a meaningless paint marking on the tarmac.

Treat the ones in car parks as dodgy, some people are too ignorant to let anyone cross and some people don't even see the markings.

I saw a cracker in Tescos car park a couple of years ago - the car driver certainly got his come uppance for his pig headed and selfish behaviour. I'll tell youse later...:Razz

I had this discussion with another on here I cannot remember his name but he was a devout cyclist maybe you know who I mean and it turned out car parks are covered by the traffic act. This bloke thinks so too. http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=63772 And this one... http://www.rjerrard.co.uk/law/cases/clarke1.htm

[ducati]

LOL. Walter - You just reminded me of when I was cycling across Vauxhall Bridge and got cut up by a white van which then had to stop at red lights. I cycled up and asked if he always drove like that?

The slob got aggressive and shouted 'You wanna make something of it?'

I said - 'Okay let's do it' and got off my bike.

Staying in his van he looked me up and down and said 'Ooooh - you're a big boy aren't you?' just as the lights changed and he drove off leaving me fuming in the middle of the road.

Similar experience in Elephant & Castle on a Motorbike (the ones with the loud noise and get you there quicker). Van, after hurling abuse at me gets stuck in traffic 8 yards later so I went doon the middle and stuck my Sidi Motorcross boot through his back light. He was talking to me when I pootled past his window but I didnt hear what he said.[lol][lol][lol]

[oldmarine]

I am soo angry.... yesterday myself and hubby were coming out of Lidl and we were both half way across the zebra crossing and a man in a white van came tearing round the corner and just missed my hubby, his window was down and my hubby loudly said dont mind us..... two seconds later he starts hurling abusive words at us(whilst still in his van and still driving) we never got his reg plate sadfully as i would have reported him, thankfully my 7 year old wasnt with us as his language was very abusive!![evil]

Thank goodness it was not my white van. It was parked in Tucson, AZ. LOL Hope you can get a handle on this one.

[Bazeye]

cost just short of £300 to fix the wing mirror alone! :eek:

Another reason not to learn to drive.

[northener]

I had this discussion with another on here I cannot remember his name but he was a devout cyclist maybe you know who I mean and it turned out car parks are covered by the traffic act. This bloke thinks so too. http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=63772 And this one... http://www.rjerrard.co.uk/law/cases/clarke1.htm

A supermarket car park is a 'public place', so Plod will take an interest if it warrants it ie: boy racers, no insurance or MOT (how did they get the car there?), but it doesn't always mean it is covered by the RTA. If you read the thread on 'Honest John' this is pointed out. The Jerrard link also points out this out:

"
As a matter of ordinary language, a car park did not qualify as a road. In character and more especially in function the two were distinct.

The proper function of a road was to enable movement along it to a destination. Incidentally a vehicle on it might be stationary. One could use a road for parking.

The proper function of a car park was to enable vehicles to stand and wait. A car might be driven across it but that was only incidental to the principle function of parking.

A hard shoulder might be seen to form part of a road. A more delicate question might arise with regard to a lay-by, but where it was designed to serve only as a temporary stopping place incidental to the function of the road it might be correct to treat it as part of the road.

While circumstances might occur where an area of land which could be reasonably described as a car park could qualify as a road for the purposes of the legislation, such circumstances would be somewhat exceptional.

The possibility had been canvassed in each of the two present cases whether there might not be a road within the respective car park. It might be acceptable in some cases to distinguish the carriageway and the car parking areas within the car park.

But once that analysis was adopted it was not then permissible to claim that the car parking areas were an integral part of the carriageway and so establish the whole as a road.

The distinction between a road and a car park which was reflected in the ordinary use of words was reinforced by a consideration of the language of the legislation. ............


......Section 25 of the 1988 Act started with the words: "If, while a motor vehicle is on a road or a parking place. . ." The distinction recognised by Parliament between a road and a parking place could also be found in Part IV of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984.

Sections 1 to 3 of the 1988 Act, which prescribed certain serious driving offences, were expressly made to apply not simply to "a road" but to "a road or other public place".



In other words, some more stuff is nickable in a 'public place' (including car parks) but overall, RTA (provision of pedestrian crossings) does not apply to car parks, unles it can be said that the car park constitutes part of a road....and as we have just seen, that's not always clear cut.


So my point that there is no jurisdiction regarding 'pedestrian crossings' in Supermarket car parks stands. The vanman may possibly be liable to be nicked for driving without due care and attention if he nearly skelps someone, but he could not be prosecuted for going against pedestrian crossing regulations...as it is not an 'official' pedestrian crossing.

One of the problems as well, Tonks, that it cannot be a Zebra crossing unless it is marked up in accordance with pedestrian crossing regulations. The 'courtesy' ones in car parks aren't marked up correctly. Plus to be recognised as such it then needs to be on a section of recognised road.

Another example of this anomaly is the provision of 'Blue Badge' parking spaces. On Council/Government property or 'on-road' restriced parking areas, the Traffic Warden has the power to ticket offenders - not so in areas like Tesco's car park.

[NickInTheNorth]

very well stated Northener.

A very simple test for a properly marked zebra crossing is does it have "belisha beacons" (those orange globes on black and white poles) at each side. If it doesn't then it quite simply is not a zebra crossing! Even if it happens to be on a public highway!!!

[tonkatojo]

very well stated Northener.

A very simple test for a properly marked zebra crossing is does it have "belisha beacons" (those orange globes on black and white poles) at each side. If it doesn't then it quite simply is not a zebra crossing! Even if it happens to be on a public highway!!!

Your right there and they used to have studs embedded in the road to make them legal but paint seems to do now. Tesco car park has the flashing belisha beacons but not the studs is that one enforcable ?.

[tonkatojo]

A supermarket car park is a 'public place', so Plod will take an interest if it warrants it ie: boy racers, no insurance or MOT (how did they get the car there?), but it doesn't always mean it is covered by the RTA. If you read the thread on 'Honest John' this is pointed out. The Jerrard link also points out this out:

"
As a matter of ordinary language, a car park did not qualify as a road. In character and more especially in function the two were distinct.

The proper function of a road was to enable movement along it to a destination. Incidentally a vehicle on it might be stationary. One could use a road for parking.

The proper function of a car park was to enable vehicles to stand and wait. A car might be driven across it but that was only incidental to the principle function of parking.

A hard shoulder might be seen to form part of a road. A more delicate question might arise with regard to a lay-by, but where it was designed to serve only as a temporary stopping place incidental to the function of the road it might be correct to treat it as part of the road.

While circumstances might occur where an area of land which could be reasonably described as a car park could qualify as a road for the purposes of the legislation, such circumstances would be somewhat exceptional.

The possibility had been canvassed in each of the two present cases whether there might not be a road within the respective car park. It might be acceptable in some cases to distinguish the carriageway and the car parking areas within the car park.

But once that analysis was adopted it was not then permissible to claim that the car parking areas were an integral part of the carriageway and so establish the whole as a road.

The distinction between a road and a car park which was reflected in the ordinary use of words was reinforced by a consideration of the language of the legislation. ............


......Section 25 of the 1988 Act started with the words: "If, while a motor vehicle is on a road or a parking place. . ." The distinction recognised by Parliament between a road and a parking place could also be found in Part IV of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984.

Sections 1 to 3 of the 1988 Act, which prescribed certain serious driving offences, were expressly made to apply not simply to "a road" but to "a road or other public place".



In other words, some more stuff is nickable in a 'public place' (including car parks) but overall, RTA (provision of pedestrian crossings) does not apply to car parks, unles it can be said that the car park constitutes part of a road....and as we have just seen, that's not always clear cut.


So my point that there is no jurisdiction regarding 'pedestrian crossings' in Supermarket car parks stands. The vanman may possibly be liable to be nicked for driving without due care and attention if he nearly skelps someone, but he could not be prosecuted for going against pedestrian crossing regulations...as it is not an 'official' pedestrian crossing.

One of the problems as well, Tonks, that it cannot be a Zebra crossing unless it is marked up in accordance with pedestrian crossing regulations. The 'courtesy' ones in car parks aren't marked up correctly. Plus to be recognised as such it then needs to be on a section of recognised road.

Another example of this anomaly is the provision of 'Blue Badge' parking spaces. On Council/Government property or 'on-road' restriced parking areas, the Traffic Warden has the power to ticket offenders - not so in areas like Tesco's car park.

It would appear not to be black and white not even grey, I suppose it would depend upon which police is on duty or how clever your brief is or what judge/sheriff was in court on the given day.:confused

[pmcd]

So we have the law, we have common sense, and we have a small proportion of licence-holders who apparently got their licences from the back of a cornflakes packet. A heady mix! So long as we let state registered idiots in tin bombs on the roads, there can be no solution. Sadly, it is impossible to legislate for people who have a RIGHT to drive how they like, at what speed they like, and in any manner they like. We let this happen, because we allowed dickheads to drive.

[balto]

you cant expect some idiots to stop at zebra crossings, even though by law they have to, when some think its ok to jump a red light and nearly knock a 5 year old of his bike, thankfully this idiot will be brought to justice, pity the same couldnt be said for the idiot in the white van, not good for a pregnant woman to get a shock like that ash, hope your ok.

[Ash]

you cant expect some idiots to stop at zebra crossings, even though by law they have to, when some think its ok to jump a red light and nearly knock a 5 year old of his bike, thankfully this idiot will be brought to justice, pity the same couldnt be said for the idiot in the white van, not good for a pregnant woman to get a shock like that ash, hope your ok.



I am ok Balto, they guy in my opinion is an absolute idiot as even if there was not a zebra crossing we were nearly across the road and he clearly could see that we were there

[_Ju_]

idiot in a white van
I was just thinking that was tautological! (yes, yes i know that there has to be a white van driver out there that is the exception to the rule. (He/she is just very rare)

[northener]

It would appear not to be black and white not even grey, I suppose it would depend upon which police is on duty or how clever your brief is or what judge/sheriff was in court on the given day.:confused

I think you've hit the nail on the head there, Tonkatojo. Regardless of whether the car park crossing is legally a 'recognised' crossing or not - it's down to the courts interpretation in a given set of circumstances.

[ducati]

I think you've hit the nail on the head there, Tonkatojo. Regardless of whether the car park crossing is legally a 'recognised' crossing or not - it's down to the courts interpretation in a given set of circumstances.

So, I'm confused now. Are we allowed to knock people down in carparks or not? :confused

[northener]

So, I'm confused now. Are we allowed to knock people down in carparks or not? :confused


Yes.

As long as you drive off quickly:Razz

[John Little]

Yes.

As long as you drive off quickly:Razz

But how many points would you score?