View Full Version : The Grand National
porshiepoo
09-Apr-11, 17:32
Isn't it about time this race and others like it were banned?
Another 2 deaths on the course today and a death yesterday. These poor animals are abused, riders insist they continue the course even when they're exhausted and out of the running!
I'm not sure yet how todays deaths came about but Inventor damaged a hind leg and was made to load into a horsebox in horrific pain and shuttled elsewhere on the Aintree turf and destroyed. :~(
Is there really a need for this kind of entertainment in the UK today? Does anyone actually get a thrill from placing a bet on such a cruel, sadistic race?
The bloomin riders are disgraceful. The whipping issues are getting so much worse and many of the riders have been banned for overuse of the whip. One horse (not in the grand national) was whipped so bad and ridden so hard he collapsed and died at the end. [evil]
orkneycadian
09-Apr-11, 18:00
Or we could just ban the keeping of horses?
NickInTheNorth
09-Apr-11, 18:17
or we could ban the banning of perfectly reasonable pastimes, life is not safe, accidents happen. When other creatures get to be clever enough to stop us controlling them will be time enough for such things to stop.
Poshipoo. I wholehearterly agree with you. or at least remove those horrid jumps.
Isn't it about time this race and others like it were banned?
Another 2 deaths on the course today and a death yesterday. These poor animals are abused, riders insist they continue the course even when they're exhausted and out of the running!
I'm not sure yet how todays deaths came about but Inventor damaged a hind leg and was made to load into a horsebox in horrific pain and shuttled elsewhere on the Aintree turf and destroyed. :~(
Is there really a need for this kind of entertainment in the UK today? Does anyone actually get a thrill from placing a bet on such a cruel, sadistic race?
The bloomin riders are disgraceful. The whipping issues are getting so much worse and many of the riders have been banned for overuse of the whip. One horse (not in the grand national) was whipped so bad and ridden so hard he collapsed and died at the end. [evil]
oh so agree with you there, this is such a cruel sport, these poor horses cant speak to say NO they dont want to it. my oh asks me every year whether i want a horse of, and my reply is every year why would i want to take part in such a cruel sport, you would need to be sick to get a thrill out of wathcing this and making some money on it.
National Hunt racing is fantastic. The horses are bred for the occasion. The shortest NH race is 2 miles and the longest is the Grand National at over 4 and a quarter miles. Some horses will die on a bad day but it does'nt happen a lot.
Racing horses love racing , without it they would end up in pies.
I sympathise with people who find the sport cruel, not because it is cruel but because they are missing one of natures great events. The bonding of man and beast to perfection.
orkneycadian
09-Apr-11, 19:58
Racing horses love racing , without it they would end up in pies.
After today, won't there be some pies going anyway? Where can we get them? Do Tesco sell them?
Its no worse than making poor old Wayne Rooney run round for 90 minutes a week, I mean, how cruel is that????
C3....:roll:;);)
Your wasting your time Porshie, this lot don't give a damn.
The problem is that these animals aren't kept as pets. They're there to make money racing. Remove the "business" and you'll remove the horses.
My daughter won 85 quid shhe picked the winner woooo hooo x
Shabbychic
10-Apr-11, 00:24
Someone mentioned, these deaths don't happen often. If you check here (http://www.horsedeathwatch.com/), you'll find it happens too often. 9 this month so far, and it's the 10th.
I don't usually get upset over animal issues. I don't particularly like horses either but according to that website 60 animals have died since the start of the year. That's shocking. There has to be something wrong with a sport that causes death on such a scale. Its mad too cos some of these horses are worth a mint.
I understand what gleeber says but surely horses should not be dying at such a rate if the sport was well run and well thought out.
Its mad too cos some of these horses are worth a mint.
But they would be worth nothing if the races were banned.
No one wins when a horse is destroyed so what exactly would you suggest happens to National Hunt racing?
Health and safety have a large part to play in modern jump racing and each year the National becomes less dangerous either by missing out fences on the second trip round the course or by pulling up horses as soon as the jockey feels it has little chance of winning. No jockey or trainer is going to allow a horse to die out of ignorance, none! If they do then they have the stewards to answer to. I doubt if there's any sport regulated as tightly as NH racing but the only way to stop injuries and deaths is to ban it. Perhaps that's what you want?
As for a jockey whipping and driving his horse to death. If that was the case that jockey would never ride again.
im sorry to hear about the deaths of 2 horses at the grand national yesterday.
why don't they have a butcher on standby at these events so if an animal dies the butcher can slice up the dead animal and make some nice horse burgers and sell these tasty treats to the spectators,the meat should be nice and tenderised by all the whipping from the jocky.
this way the dead animal does'nt get made into glue,the crowd get fed and some money gets raised by selling the horse burgers,brilliant,everyone is happy.
they could even have a butcher on standby at dog races and rabbit shows.
Isn't it about time this race and others like it were banned?
Another 2 deaths on the course today and a death yesterday. These poor animals are abused, riders insist they continue the course even when they're exhausted and out of the running!
I'm not sure yet how todays deaths came about but Inventor damaged a hind leg and was made to load into a horsebox in horrific pain and shuttled elsewhere on the Aintree turf and destroyed. :~(
Is there really a need for this kind of entertainment in the UK today? Does anyone actually get a thrill from placing a bet on such a cruel, sadistic race?
The bloomin riders are disgraceful. The whipping issues are getting so much worse and many of the riders have been banned for overuse of the whip. One horse (not in the grand national) was whipped so bad and ridden so hard he collapsed and died at the end. [evil]
DeHaviLand
10-Apr-11, 09:46
im sorry to hear about the deaths of 2 horses at the grand national yesterday.
why don't they have a butcher on standby at these events so if an animal dies the butcher can slice up the dead animal and make some nice horse burgers and sell these tasty treats to the spectators,the meat should be nice and tenderised by all the whipping from the jocky.
this way the dead animal does'nt get made into glue,the crowd get fed and some money gets raised by selling the horse burgers,brilliant,everyone is happy.
they could even have a butcher on standby at dog races and rabbit shows.
Troll much?
Tugmistress
10-Apr-11, 09:52
i must say i agree totally with gleeber on this. the jockeys themselves will not put the horses life at risk on purpose, neither will a trainer enter a horse without the ability to compete.
I dont beleive the jockeys are putting the horses at risk uneccessarily and I dont think the trainers would enter a horse without the ability to compete so what is happeneing that 60 animals have died in three and a half months. Are the courses inherently unsafe? Are the expectations too high? Is breeding producing horses which are more likely to fall/break a bone or what....
I wouldnt like to see it banned but 60 horses????? Has the number increased over the last few years or has itn fallen I guess that would be an interesting question to know the answer to.
The total number of animals killed in British slaughterhouses in 2003 was approximately 900 million.
This included 9.35 million pigs, nearly 15 million sheep, 28 million turkeys, 20 million ducks, over 850 million chickens and 2.25 million cattle. This equates to 2.4 million animals slaughtered every day; 100,000 an hour; 1,600 per minute and 26 every second
Take it you're a vegetarian Porshiepoo? Ever been inside a abattoir?
OK tighten up the rules on horseracing.. but..
orkneycadian
10-Apr-11, 11:03
Yesterday, around about the same time as the Grand National, I was witness to one horse being made towalk on the public road! With someone sitting on its back! I can't imagine horses fancy the public road too much, and would rather be in fields and on grass, but this one had its head in a truss made of leather and was being made to walk along the public road, probably against its will!
Worse than that, to counter the hardness of the alien (to the horse) road, it had to have bits of iron nailed, yes, thats right, nailed, to its hoofs!
As if all that wasn't enough, it was having to bear the weight of a member of another specieis on its back!
How un-natural is all of this? I mean, a horse wouldnt choose to walk along a pubic road when there are fields to ramp about in - especially if it had to nail metal to its own feet in order to do so, and to carry a lump of lard around on its back to boot? It doesnt even carry its own young around in this way!
So if man uses animals for his own end it's unnatural but if animals other than humans abuse one another it's natural? What exactly are you saying about mans position in the natural world?
Everything humans do is as natural as birds flying or volcanos erupting. We are a part of nature and anything we do within nature is natural. Humans are a strange breed without a doubt but dont put them down any more than they are already. Their place in nature is assured. So is their natural connection with horses. Im sure if horses could speak they would thank humans for pushing them to their full potential.
im sorry to hear about the deaths of 2 horses at the grand national yesterday.
why don't they have a butcher on standby at these events so if an animal dies the butcher can slice up the dead animal and make some nice horse burgers and sell these tasty treats to the spectators,the meat should be nice and tenderised by all the whipping from the jocky.
this way the dead animal does'nt get made into glue,the crowd get fed and some money gets raised by selling the horse burgers,brilliant,everyone is happy.
they could even have a butcher on standby at dog races and rabbit shows.
That's just silly. You have to hang it for weeks.
Jeepers this forum is as snide and sarcastic as a bunch of teenage girls in a school playground.
I am not a vegetarian, dont much care from horses but doesnt 60 horses dying in 14 weeks as a result of people racing them just cos we enjoy and like to place a bet on it seem a little excessive????
No one is saying horses houldnt be shod and ridden orkneycadian but even you surely must be surprised that its so many. I would just like to know why it is so many and what the industry are doing to reduce the risk of fatalities.
Sneering and smugness doesnt add anything much to the discussion
National Hunt racing is a dangerous sport and in recent years health and safety have got heavily involved.
60 horses in 14 weeks is a lot but considering how many horses will have run during that time, statistically i'm sure it will be on par with any other human activity using relative figures and probably even less but I'm aware National Hunt horse racing cant really be compared to any other sport.
Those of us who enjoy National Hunt racing with or without placing money on the outcome are always shocked when a horse is seriously injured or destroyed but Its an occupational hazard. Those in charge do everything in their power to minimise the damage and optimise the spectacle.
The total number of animals killed in British slaughterhouses in 2003 was approximately 900 million.
This included 9.35 million pigs, nearly 15 million sheep, 28 million turkeys, 20 million ducks, over 850 million chickens and 2.25 million cattle. This equates to 2.4 million animals slaughtered every day; 100,000 an hour; 1,600 per minute and 26 every second
Take it you're a vegetarian Porshiepoo? Ever been inside a abattoir?
OK tighten up the rules on horseracing.. but..
The vast majority of animals killed in slaughterhouses are not made to suffer before their death.
if Silverstone had three deaths every season of racing, the pist would be changed to make it safer.
Are you saying that the majority of thoroughbred race horses are made to suffer in the course of their racing careers?
The vast majority of animals killed in slaughterhouses are not made to suffer before their death.
if Silverstone had three deaths every season of racing, the pist would be changed to make it safer.
"The vast majority of animals killed in slaughterhouses are not made to suffer before their death."
That's OK then?
I've been inside slaughter houses (maybe why I went vegetarian for two years).. This tread is basically discussing "cruelty to animals" - If you really believe it's just fine to accept that the majority of animals don;'t suffer, you intimate that others do..
Warning; These links contain footage that is NOT acceptable - do not open if you are fully satisfied that animals in slaughter houses are not treated badly.
(Mods, I don't know if this is acceptable or not; but it's fact - please delete if not)
PS wot's pist?
http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/news-slaughterhouse-cruelity-humane-death-myth
http://www.ciwf.org.uk/includes/documents/cm_docs/2008/a/animal_welfare_problems_in_uk_slaughterhouses_2001 .pdf
porshiepoo
10-Apr-11, 15:04
Well, have to say it comes as no surprise to me that the majority of orgers are a sadistic bunch of morons who care not a jot for anyone or anything other than themselves and the small, tiny part of this planet that they happen to expose to them.
How anyone, young, old, thick, clever and a multitude of descriptions in between can be OK with not only watching but placing bets on a sport that is so cruel it results in animal deaths at an alarming rate is sick! You need help people!
You assume that a horse enjoys to run a race simply because it's been bred to do it? What planet are you people from? What would you do if someone was on yer back with a whip in hand slashing the backside off you if you don't run the 41/2 miles? (not including those of you that do such things in your spare time in the privacy of your bedroom or at the new Lybster massage parlour).
A horse will continue to run the race after unseating a rider due to its natural herd instinct to stay protected within the herd NOT because it's on its jollies and enjoys the bloomin job in hand.
For those of you that convince yourselves owners, trainers and riders would not willingly risk their horse, they DO risk their horse every time they race these courses and they do it willingly and with the full knowledge (especially where the Grand National is concerned) that there will most certainly be casualties. It's just a shame there are not more human fatalities. It appears the one human death at Aintree wasn't enough to put a stop to it but here's to hoping in the future.......
The main concern for owners is the prize pot, the main concern for the trainer is the prestige of the race and both are willing to kill a horse to get it. As for the jockeys - yesterdays winning jockey has a 5 day ban for overuse of the whip (not much of a punishment though) and the poor horse was so exhausted it couldn't even make it to the winners enclosure and was led away on wobbly legs to be rehydrated - as were many of the runners. I've heard many a jockey talk about their wins and about the horse and there are very few of them that actually say anything nice in private about the animal that earns their wage.
Yep, I bet those horses are well chuffed they run though :confused
The race needs the jumps removed. Lowering them any more will simply result in a faster race and probably more carnage.
Onais and Dooneys Gate suffered a broken back and a broken neck, I can only hope it was quick for them. Shame they can't thank their owners for putting them into that cavalry charge!
Have to say a big heads up to all the jockeys that decided to pull up their tired horses rather than risk the horses health.
Now, for all of you that feel that the National and its ilk are not cruel, needless, pointless races I can put you in the direction of video footage that will change your mind.
How strange it is that so many people can get worked up about the fate of a few horses in the light of the millions that get killed to feed us, the dominant species.
Metalattakk
10-Apr-11, 15:16
It's just a shame there are not more human fatalities. It appears the one human death at Aintree wasn't enough to put a stop to it but here's to hoping in the future.......
What a hateful, disgusting and vile comment to make.
Crackeday
10-Apr-11, 15:25
Its a race that people have betted on for years, its a national institution (pardon the pun). Horses are killed for meat and dog food etc around the world on a daily basis, if people feel so strongly about the plight of horses then they should direct their wrath at these people or better still the horses on the SSPCA website from caithness that they were trying to trace the owners of ??
I can understand how some find it barbaric but it is loved by the majority, where everyone from the queen to grandchildren have a wee punt.
porshiepoo
10-Apr-11, 15:27
How strange it is that so many people can get worked up about the fate of a few horses in the light of the millions that get killed to feed us, the dominant species.
It's not strange at all. Slaughterhouses have long been areas of controversy and thousands of people have spent decades bringing these cruelties to light, hopefully with enough intervention stricter laws can be bought into effect within the system to prevent the cruelty that goes on within them. I'd also like to see a ban on Halal meat but I guess many of you won't.
The death of horses during the Grand National causes so much of a stir because we live in a society that is becoming more and more aware of blood sports and how cruel and pointless they are. Animals put in danger or killed for the pleasure of entertainment just shouldn't be acceptable in todays society (IMO). It has no place.
The excitement racegoers feel at watching a herd of fleeing horses attempt to clear structures of ridiculous height and width while going at excessive speed is simply sadistic. And the fact that it's almost acceptable to watch the jockeys whipping their mounts so hard they leave marks is sick!
There are self regulated JC rules on whip usage but do you think that a jockey cares if he gets a stupid 5 day ban after the Grand National if overusing the whip means he actually wins it??? He could care less!
So if a person doesn't stand up and cause a stir about slaughterhouse cruelties does that mean they then have no right to speak out about the cruelties on the racetrack?
porshiepoo
10-Apr-11, 15:29
Its a race that people have betted on for years, its a national institution (pardon the pun). Horses are killed for meat and dog food etc around the world on a daily basis, if people feel so strongly about the plight of horses then they should direct their wrath at these people or better still the horses on the SSPCA website from caithness that they were trying to trace the owners of ??
I can understand how some find it barbaric but it is loved by the majority, where everyone from the queen to grandchildren have a wee punt.
Just because some love it doesn't make it right!
Many people love dog fighting doesn't make it right.
Many people love bull fighting doesn't make it right.
Many people love to throw puppies off bridges doesn't make it right.
But as long as the Queen loves it..............
We do not have to ignore the cruelty in one area just to focus on another. All Animal Cruelty is wrong!
Crackeday
10-Apr-11, 15:32
Just because some love it doesn't make it right!
Many people love dog fighting doesn't make it right.
Many people love bull fighting doesn't make it right.
Many people love to throw puppies off bridges doesn't make it right.
But as long as the Queen loves it..............
We do not have to ignore the cruelty in one area just to focus on another. All Animal Cruelty is wrong!
I agree cruelty is wrong, but the majority of people support the national and have a wee flutter, why throw puppies of a bridge to prove your point???????? ;)
porshiepoo
10-Apr-11, 15:33
What a hateful, disgusting and vile comment to make.
Why? There will most certainly be many more horse deaths in the next Grand National, why would that be OK to accept and not the death of a jockey? Don't forget the jockey knows exactly what he is getting into, he has the privilege of freedom of choice, the horse doesn't.
You get all uppety as much as you want but how many people comment that it would serve a bullfighter right if he got gored? Same difference IMO.
porshiepoo
10-Apr-11, 15:36
I agree cruelty is wrong, but the majority of people support the national and have a wee flutter, why throw puppies of a bridge to prove your point???????? ;)
The majority of Spaniards support killing bulls slowly and sadistically in the name of honour and entertainment but that doesn't make it right and doesn't mean it shouldn't be stopped.
Unfortunately there are sad little individuals that think it funny to throw a dog from a bridge and film it hitting the ground!
Metalattakk
10-Apr-11, 15:37
Why? There will most certainly be many more horse deaths in the next Grand National, why would that be OK to accept and not the death of a jockey? Don't forget the jockey knows exactly what he is getting into, he has the privilege of freedom of choice, the horse doesn't.
You get all uppety as much as you want but how many people comment that it would serve a bullfighter right if he got gored? Same difference IMO.
There's a difference between accepting a given outcome such as the bullfighter getting it right up him, and actually wishing and hoping for him to die. A huge difference.
And the fact you can't differentiate between them tells me all I need to know. You're a prize plum.
Metalattakk
10-Apr-11, 15:39
The majority of Spaniards support killing bulls slowly and sadistically in the name of honour and entertainment
And that is errant nonsense. Where's your figures to back this random statement up?
porshiepoo
10-Apr-11, 15:45
And that is errant nonsense. Where's your figures to back this random statement up?
Seriously? Now you're just arguing for the sake of it but here.....
Bullfighting is the most traditional of Spanish Fiestas. The Spanish people consider them art forms which are intimately linked with their country’s history, art and culture. Pressure groups attempt to lobby against bullfighting yet the King of Spain himself has allegedly stated that the day the EU bans bullfighting is the day Spain leaves the EU.
Today bullfighting is big business in Spain with the top matadores earning comparable salaries to the nation's top soccer stars and rock idols.
You don't have to bloomin look far.
And just so you know exactly what happens and what is revered:
So what happens during a bullfight?:
Firstly the bull is let into the ring. Then, the top bullfighter called the Matador, watches his chief assistant wave a bright yellow and magenta cape in front of the bull to make it charge. He watches this in order to determine the bull's qualities and mood, before taking over himself.
Then a trumpet is sounded and several fighters called Picadores weaken the bull by placing spears into it. This takes around 10 minutes.
Another trumpet is sounded and the Matador now removes his black winged hat and dedicates the death of the bull to the president or the crowd before beginning his faena.
The faena which is the most beautiful and skillful section of the fight and where the matador must prove his courage and artistry. The faena consists of a running at the Matador carrying a muleta. This is a piece of thick crimson cloth draped over a short stick, which can be held in either the left hand or draped over the espada, the killing sword, which is always held in the right hand. Usually the muleta, in left or right hand, is first held in front of the matador to make the bull charge and is then swung across and away from the matador's body hopefully taking the bull with it.
This is a show, basically a dance with death - one wrong move and the Matador could become impaled on the horns of the bull. It is the Matador's job to make this dance dramatic and enjoyable for the audience.
The faena continues until the Matador has demonstrated his superiority over the bull. Once this is achieved the bull is ready to be killed.
The matador stands some ten feet from the bull, keeping the bull fixated on the muleta and aims the espada between the shoulder blades. The matador attacks pushing the espada over the horns and deep between the shoulder blades. If the sword goes in to the hilt it is an estocada but if it hits bone it is a pinchazo or media-estocada. An estocada usually results in the bull dropping immediately to its knees and dying, but if the bull fails to die the matador may take the descabello (a sword with a short cross piece at the end) which he stabs into the bull's neck severing the spinal cord. The fight is over.
Lol now we have gone from one extreme to the other!!!! Those of you that follow and enjoy The racing could perhaps explain to me what steps are in place to minimise accidents.
The Drunken Duck
10-Apr-11, 15:46
Well, have to say it comes as no surprise to me that the majority of orgers are a sadistic bunch of morons who care not a jot for anyone or anything other than themselves and the small, tiny part of this planet that they happen to expose to them.
How anyone, young, old, thick, clever and a multitude of descriptions in between can be OK with not only watching but placing bets on a sport that is so cruel it results in animal deaths at an alarming rate is sick! You need help people!
You assume that a horse enjoys to run a race simply because it's been bred to do it? What planet are you people from? What would you do if someone was on yer back with a whip in hand slashing the backside off you if you don't run the 41/2 miles? (not including those of you that do such things in your spare time in the privacy of your bedroom or at the new Lybster massage parlour).
A horse will continue to run the race after unseating a rider due to its natural herd instinct to stay protected within the herd NOT because it's on its jollies and enjoys the bloomin job in hand.
For those of you that convince yourselves owners, trainers and riders would not willingly risk their horse, they DO risk their horse every time they race these courses and they do it willingly and with the full knowledge (especially where the Grand National is concerned) that there will most certainly be casualties. It's just a shame there are not more human fatalities. It appears the one human death at Aintree wasn't enough to put a stop to it but here's to hoping in the future.......
The main concern for owners is the prize pot, the main concern for the trainer is the prestige of the race and both are willing to kill a horse to get it. As for the jockeys - yesterdays winning jockey has a 5 day ban for overuse of the whip (not much of a punishment though) and the poor horse was so exhausted it couldn't even make it to the winners enclosure and was led away on wobbly legs to be rehydrated - as were many of the runners. I've heard many a jockey talk about their wins and about the horse and there are very few of them that actually say anything nice in private about the animal that earns their wage.
Yep, I bet those horses are well chuffed they run though :confused
The race needs the jumps removed. Lowering them any more will simply result in a faster race and probably more carnage.
Onais and Dooneys Gate suffered a broken back and a broken neck, I can only hope it was quick for them. Shame they can't thank their owners for putting them into that cavalry charge!
Have to say a big heads up to all the jockeys that decided to pull up their tired horses rather than risk the horses health.
Now, for all of you that feel that the National and its ilk are not cruel, needless, pointless races I can put you in the direction of video footage that will change your mind.
Ah bless .. having a little rant are you because not everyone feels the way you do. Your almost toddler like stand of standing stamping your feet and getting a huff on because people dont stand around clapping at your stance is hilarious. Apparently you value horses more than humans looking at your comment wishing for more human lives to be lost at Aintree in the future. Get a grip.
Tell you what, instead of throwing a hissy fit on a community website about what a "sadistic bunch of morons" others are, based entirely apparently on them having an opposing view to you, why dont you do something constructive. Like gather some data and write to the people who can change things, or write to your MP, anything in fact except drag out your soapbox and lecture others as to what they should think and insult them because you have assumed they dont agree with you. Because the time I have spent reading your whiny self absorbed drivel is just thirty seconds wasted I will want back on my deathbed. That post was eye rape.
I watched the National and had a bet. I probably will next year. I dont give a toss if you approve or not, you label me as "sick" and "in need of help", I reckon your suffering from "SelfImportantItis" yourself. Not to worry though I have a dose of "IDontGiveAStuffWhatYouThink" here for you. It's to be taken anally at high speed as many times a day as you can. Enjoy.
porshiepoo
10-Apr-11, 15:48
Lol now we have gone from one extreme to the other!!!! Those of you that follow and enjoy The racing could perhaps explain to me what steps are in place to minimise accidents.
How about none!
i take it you wont like the horse burger either????
Seriously? Now you're just arguing for the sake of it but here.....
Bullfighting is the most traditional of Spanish Fiestas. The Spanish people consider them art forms which are intimately linked with their country’s history, art and culture. Pressure groups attempt to lobby against bullfighting yet the King of Spain himself has allegedly stated that the day the EU bans bullfighting is the day Spain leaves the EU.
Today bullfighting is big business in Spain with the top matadores earning comparable salaries to the nation's top soccer stars and rock idols.
You don't have to bloomin look far.
And just so you know exactly what happens and what is revered:
So what happens during a bullfight?:
Firstly the bull is let into the ring. Then, the top bullfighter called the Matador, watches his chief assistant wave a bright yellow and magenta cape in front of the bull to make it charge. He watches this in order to determine the bull's qualities and mood, before taking over himself.
Then a trumpet is sounded and several fighters called Picadores weaken the bull by placing spears into it. This takes around 10 minutes.
Another trumpet is sounded and the Matador now removes his black winged hat and dedicates the death of the bull to the president or the crowd before beginning his faena.
The faena which is the most beautiful and skillful section of the fight and where the matador must prove his courage and artistry. The faena consists of a running at the Matador carrying a muleta. This is a piece of thick crimson cloth draped over a short stick, which can be held in either the left hand or draped over the espada, the killing sword, which is always held in the right hand. Usually the muleta, in left or right hand, is first held in front of the matador to make the bull charge and is then swung across and away from the matador's body hopefully taking the bull with it.
This is a show, basically a dance with death - one wrong move and the Matador could become impaled on the horns of the bull. It is the Matador's job to make this dance dramatic and enjoyable for the audience.
The faena continues until the Matador has demonstrated his superiority over the bull. Once this is achieved the bull is ready to be killed.
The matador stands some ten feet from the bull, keeping the bull fixated on the muleta and aims the espada between the shoulder blades. The matador attacks pushing the espada over the horns and deep between the shoulder blades. If the sword goes in to the hilt it is an estocada but if it hits bone it is a pinchazo or media-estocada. An estocada usually results in the bull dropping immediately to its knees and dying, but if the bull fails to die the matador may take the descabello (a sword with a short cross piece at the end) which he stabs into the bull's neck severing the spinal cord. The fight is over.
Crackeday
10-Apr-11, 15:51
I agree with drunken duck to a degree. Maybe if you feel so strongly then why not help out the SSPCA in tracking down people locally who abuse horses? After all youd stand more chance of having a good outcome with that than trying to ban a race enjoyed by millions.
porshiepoo
10-Apr-11, 15:56
Ah bless .. having a little rant are you because not everyone feels the way you do. Your almost toddler like stand of standing stamping your feet and getting a huff on because people dont stand around clapping at your stance is hilarious. Apparently you value horses more than humans looking at your comment wishing for more human lives to be lost at Aintree in the future. Get a grip.
Tell you what, instead of throwing a hissy fit on a community website about what a "sadistic bunch of morons" everyone else because they may or may not agree with you why dont you do something constructive. Like gather some data and write to the people who can change things, or write to your MP, anything in fact except drag out your soapbox and lecture others as to what they should think and insult them because you have assumed they dont. Because the time I have spent reading your whiny self absorbed drivel is just thirty seconds wasted I will want back on my deathbed. That post was eye rape.
I watched the National and had a bet. I probably will next year. I dont give a toss if you approve or not, you label me as "sick" and "in need of help", I reckon your suffering from "SelfImportantItis" yourself. Not to worry though I have a does of "IDontGiveAStuffWhatYouThink" here for you. It's to be taken anally at high speed as many times a day as you can. Enjoy.
TBH I couldn't give a stuff who agrees with me and who doesn't. My opinions are my own, as are yours.
The fact that you are the type of person that enjoys a flutter on a cruel race that ends in animal death is something you have to carry, not me.
Funny how you interpreted my post as a hissy fit and the old toy throwing from prams but then I guess someone who cares less about the life of an animal probably would see it as such. You think my post is toddler like - have you read the verbal diarrhea you've just posted?
I suspect there is much more than 30 seconds you will be wanting back on your deathbed.
I'm astounded that people such as yourself that are pro cruel sports have to shout that it must mean I prefer animal life to human life simply because I do not find the death of a horse any more acceptable than that of a human.
The Drunken Duck
10-Apr-11, 16:16
TBH I couldn't give a stuff who agrees with me and who doesn't. My opinions are my own, as are yours.
The fact that you are the type of person that enjoys a flutter on a cruel race that ends in animal death is something you have to carry, not me.
Funny how you interpreted my post as a hissy fit and the old toy throwing from prams but then I guess someone who cares less about the life of an animal probably would see it as such. You think my post is toddler like - have you read the verbal diarrhea you've just posted?
I suspect there is much more than 30 seconds you will be wanting back on your deathbed.
I'm astounded that people such as yourself that are pro cruel sports have to shout that it must mean I prefer animal life to human life simply because I do not find the death of a horse any more acceptable than that of a human.
Whats up Princess ?? .. bit hacked off at getting rocked back on your soap box ??, which part of I-dont-give-a-stuff-what-you-think does your pea like brain not comprehend ??, going on about "your opinions being your own" after labelling people like myself who watch the National "sick" and "in need of help" is hardly that is it ??, in fact its the complete opposite.
I'm not "pro cruel sports" at all. I have a bet once a year on a horse race but you know what, somehow I find the strength to carry on even after the little horseys got hurt. What an animal I am eh ??, maybe I should go onto the internet and berate others to feel better. Once again you just go down your line that anyone who doesnt agree with you is wrong. I personally think someone who is that upset about this issue but can find no other way to deal with it except rant on a website that has nothing to do with the issue is full of crap and typical of the "I'm outraged" voices who do nothing else but moan on the internet. Have you taken any other action other than come on here and berate others ??, I notice that you purposely ignored THAT suggestion. Why dont you go do that instead, but here's a tip .. dont use the crayons and joined up writing is recommended.
Just for you I am going to make sure I watch it next year. And have a bet. Deal with it.
porshiepoo
10-Apr-11, 16:17
There's a difference between accepting a given outcome such as the bullfighter getting it right up him, and actually wishing and hoping for him to die. A huge difference.
And the fact you can't differentiate between them tells me all I need to know. You're a prize plum.
A jockey would have to accept the outcome of a race may result in their death, much the same as a bullfighter.
My hoping that a person taking part in a cruel sport suffers the same fate as the innocent animal is not going to alter the outcome one jot.
Would I care in the same manner if a Bullfighter was gored the same way they spear a bull? Nope.
Would I care if a sicko managing a dog fight was attacked by the dog? Not on your nelly.
Would I care if the sicko throwing the dog off the bridge fell off after it? Nah.
Would I HOPE that those things happen? Yes, it would bloomin serve them right.
Do I hope that deaths in those situations would increase awareness of cruelty? Most definitely YES!
Metalattakk
10-Apr-11, 16:20
Seriously? Now you're just arguing for the sake of it but here.....
Bullfighting is the most traditional of Spanish Fiestas. The Spanish people consider them art forms which are intimately linked with their country’s history, art and culture. Pressure groups attempt to lobby against bullfighting yet the King of Spain himself has allegedly stated that the day the EU bans bullfighting is the day Spain leaves the EU.
Today bullfighting is big business in Spain with the top matadores earning comparable salaries to the nation's top soccer stars and rock idols.
You don't have to bloomin look far.
You have to look further than some random website though. Where's the official source of your quote?
Not content with making things up to suit yourself, you're quoting other people who are making things up, to suit yourself.
Metalattakk
10-Apr-11, 16:25
Would I HOPE that those things happen? Yes, it would bloomin serve them right.
Again, you hope that people will die? Reprehensible behaviour. http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z55/Metalattakk/f_doh.gif
Now now folks, calm down, the wee lassagie has had her hissy fit, and called the majority of us sadistic and morons, just let her be, she is obviously no right in the head, she is more to be pity-ed than mocked
Well, have to say it comes as no surprise to me that the majority of orgers are a sadistic bunch of morons .
porshiepoo
10-Apr-11, 16:29
=The Drunken Duck;839415]Whats up Princess ?? .. bit hacked off at getting rocked back on your soap box ??, which part of I-dont-give-a-stuff-what-you-think does your pea like brain not comprehend ??, going on about "your opinions being your own" after labelling people like myself who watch the National "sick" and "in need of help" is hardly that is it ??, in fact its the complete opposite.
Er Yes, it's my opinion :roll: that people who like cruel sports are morons and are most definitely in need of help. Unfortunately there are also those who are simply beyond help.
I'm not "pro cruel sports" at all. I have a bet once a year on a horse race but you know what, somehow I find the strength to carry on even after the little horseys got hurt.
Hahahaha, avoidance, denial, so that's how you justify participating in a cruel sport. You tell yourself the little horseys got hurt if it makes you feel less sadistic for joining in. But they didn't they got DEAD.
What an animal I am eh ??
As much as I'd like to agree with that statement it would be cruel to the animals of the earth. You may be many things but you're not an animal.
, maybe I should go onto the internet and berate others to feel better. Once again you just go down your line that anyone who doesnt agree with you is wrong. I personally think someone who is that upset about this issue but can find no other way to deal with it except rant on a website that has nothing to do with the issue is full of crap and typical of the "I'm outraged" voices who do nothing else but moan on the internet. Have you taken any other action other than come on here and berate others ??, I notice that you purposely ignored THAT suggestion. Why dont you go do that instead, but here's a tip .. dont use the crayons and joined up writing is recommended.
Just for you I am going to make sure I watch it next year. And have a bet. Deal with it.
Hmmmmm for someone who claims to not care what I think and doesn't "giveastuff" you certainly aren't acting like it.
I suspect you actually realise what a sick individual you must be to enjoy and/or participate in cruel sports and don't like someone actually daring to tell you.
As for getting all ranty because someone doesn't agree with me - far from it. However look at your last posts and you really are throwing toys out the pram aren't you! Hit a nerve I suspect.
ive been reading this post with interest.. i will admit i like the grand national to watch it.. and i do put a bet off on it.. but i was taken aback yesterday after watching it by the behavior of those involved with the horses themselves.. when the winner came in.. gasping for breath.. about to drop.. i though.. wow.. thats the owner rushing over to check on his poor horse.. but no he was leaping for joy.. and congrats.. to the jokey.. dragging the horse along in their glee.. the only person that i saw that was upset with the state of the horse was the stable man that they spoke to.. while i dont think the grand national should be banned.. i think that they need to start putting a lot more thought into it.. perhaps moving it back before it gets so hot. looking into ways to get loose horses off the course in a better way. def. putting it in to pull horses up that are struggling. a dead horse can not win races. i try to keep a balance in my thinking with animals.. somewhere between they are just stupid beasts and part of the family come sit down for tea with me.
i do not condone cruelty , but at the same time i do not say .. ban everything for the slightness reason.
its a very delicate balance.. and i personally do think that the races has a long way to go, before they will be satisfactory care wise in my book.. but i dont think banning them outright is the answer either.
The Drunken Duck
10-Apr-11, 16:47
Porshie gave me negative rep .. *sniff* .. That's me told then .. *sniff*
No point arguing with an idiot though, they just drag you down to their level and beat you on experience. This dullard went from calling people "sick" and "in need of help" for watching or betting on a race she doesnt approve of to "As for getting all ranty when people dont agree with me .. far from it". I rest my case.
Go to go now Porshie, I am off to play conkers with a couple of terrapins.
David Banks
10-Apr-11, 16:56
Just because some love it doesn't make it right!
Many people love dog fighting doesn't make it right.
Many people love bull fighting doesn't make it right.
Many people love to throw puppies off bridges doesn't make it right.
But as long as the Queen loves it..............
We do not have to ignore the cruelty in one area just to focus on another. All Animal Cruelty is wrong!
To add to the list, most of the "sports" in the Calgary Stampede (aka: The Greatest Outdoor Show on Earth) are just human "entertainment" at the expense of animals. But as long as Prince Philip gets to add to his collection of gifts of white stetsons . . . .
I wonder if William and what-do-you-call-her will go to the Stampede on their upcoming trip to Canada?
Those of us who enjoy National Hunt racing with or without placing money on the outcome are always shocked when a horse is seriously injured or destroyed but Its an occupational hazard.
It would only be an occupational hazard if it was the rider who died.
"The vast majority of animals killed in slaughterhouses are not made to suffer before their death."
That's OK then?
I've been inside slaughter houses (maybe why I went vegetarian for two years).. This tread is basically discussing "cruelty to animals" - If you really believe it's just fine to accept that the majority of animals don;'t suffer, you intimate that others do..
I misspelt. I meant "piste" (Irregular track for racing or sking)
So you were in a slaughterhouse once and that made you a vegeterian for two years. Is that because you forgot what you saw, believe that conditions have improved or is what you saw no longer important? How many slaughterhouses were you inside of and in what capacity?
Oh dear. after the earth-shattering debates (i.e. "I'm right/you're wrong") of the last few days, somebody else has decided to give the starting handle on the Outrage Bus a turn or two.
I can see both sides of this argument, which makes me either a State Registered Coward, or a realist.
Horse racing is a fine spectacle, and doubles as an excellent repository for Hooray Henries, Travellers, and women with thick ankles and a very optimistic dress sense. It is also a nice place for the Irish to reclaim their deficit, and a jolly environment for people to drink and spend till liver and wallet can take no more......
On the other hand, horses occasionally die, and man is responsible. The evil sod.
We know what's going to happen, don't we? Like cock/bear/dog fighting, animals in circuses, beagle smokers and rabbit eyeliner aficionados, people who smoke, people who drink, people who eat too much and wobble more than the average, horse racing will be deemed socially evil, and then banned. Along with anything else containing the notion of risk, danger, spectacle or adventure.
Then, once we've run out of creatures upon which we may inflict damage (including ourselves), we can go back to the essentials of human nature - trying to stay as safely old as possible for as long as possible sitting in a wing-back chair, days, weeks and months away from oblivion/paradise, counting the very long, friendless, and empty hours, sipping a thin gruel while we try to remember the splendours of our youth - all those heady days of living according to the rules, five a day, no fats, drinks, smokes, adventures etc. Whoopee!
O Brave new world, that hath such creatures in it!
Well, stone me - I appear to have hopped on the Outrage Bus myself!
I shall immediately award myself negative points for not agreeing with whatever is fashionable.....
And quietly ask for a sense of proportion?
Oh dear...
just been watching F1..
So, I'm one of these it seems: "orgers are a sadistic bunch of morons" and "You need help people!" and "I'd also like to see a ban on Halal meat but I guess many of you won't" and the clincher is this persons skewed statement "I do not find the death of a horse any more acceptable than that of a human." - And YOU reckon I'm sick?
AND
"It appears the one human death at Aintree wasn't enough to put a stop to it but here's to hoping in the future"....... That is sick, incidentally Peter Toole who was thrown off at the first jump, sustained a serious head injury, bleeding in the brain and is now in intensive care in an induced coma - bet you're really pleased about that?
I was a bit confused (obviously 'cos I need help) that you wrote: #1: "riders insist they continue the course even when they're exhausted and out of the running!" and then later say "Have to say a big heads up to all the jockeys that decided to pull up their tired horses rather than risk the horses health." Hmmm
You do realise of course that the wee pretty neddy is eaten in: Austria, Belgium, Canada, Chile, China, France, Germany, Iceland, Indonesia, and in Italy. In Japan, Kazakhstan, Malta, Mongolia, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Slovenia, Sweden, and in Switzerland. The top eight countries consuming about 4.7 million horses a year: , Italy; 48,000 tons (213,000 horses) France: 7,500 tons, why, In Sweden horse meat outsells lamb and mutton combined..
My own personal thoughts on horse racing: boring. Mrs Beks (sadistic moron) loves it, had a horse herself for many, many years..
But in the course of her attending race courses in the last 30+ years I've been with here, I've been to; Carlisle, Ayr (Scottish Grand National), Doncaster, Perth, Haydock, Hereford, Sedgefield, Wetherby, Ascot, Aintree (Grand National), Bangor on Dee, Cartmel, Catterick, Cheltenham (Gold Cup) Chester, Exeter, Hexham, Market Rasen, Ripon, Uttoxeter, Wolverhampton, York and Southwell.. Watched a couple of races, but it was just sitting and watching 'em run, followed by cheering, followed by going to the paddock to look at 'em, back to the stand (County Enclosure of course) sitting and watching em run, followed by cheering, followed by going to the paddock to look at 'em, back to the stand for five or six races.
Got bored initially so would just sit in the restaurant and read the papers, before later staying home (cos I didn't want to be sadistic moron, of course)..
I was wondered what sort of person you were, with banding all this around and what do I find "I went to one org night but have to admit to feeling uncomfortable but that was all my own doing. I'd gotten into so many arguments on here that I dreaded telling people my org name when we met face to face" - Hmm now who was that I wonder?
I misspelt. I meant "piste" (Irregular track for racing or sking)
So you were in a slaughterhouse once and that made you a vegeterian for two years. Is that because you forgot what you saw, believe that conditions have improved or is what you saw no longer important? How many slaughterhouses were you inside of and in what capacity?
Time heals. Lets call it a 11D
porshiepoo
10-Apr-11, 18:43
ive been reading this post with interest.. i will admit i like the grand national to watch it.. and i do put a bet off on it.. but i was taken aback yesterday after watching it by the behavior of those involved with the horses themselves.. when the winner came in.. gasping for breath.. about to drop.. i though.. wow.. thats the owner rushing over to check on his poor horse.. but no he was leaping for joy.. and congrats.. to the jokey.. dragging the horse along in their glee.. the only person that i saw that was upset with the state of the horse was the stable man that they spoke to.. while i dont think the grand national should be banned.. i think that they need to start putting a lot more thought into it.. perhaps moving it back before it gets so hot. looking into ways to get loose horses off the course in a better way. def. putting it in to pull horses up that are struggling. a dead horse can not win races. i try to keep a balance in my thinking with animals.. somewhere between they are just stupid beasts and part of the family come sit down for tea with me.
i do not condone cruelty , but at the same time i do not say .. ban everything for the slightness reason.
its a very delicate balance.. and i personally do think that the races has a long way to go, before they will be satisfactory care wise in my book.. but i dont think banning them outright is the answer either.
All fair points!
The grooms tend to be more attached to the horses as they're the ones handling them every day so obviously they would be the ones hardest hit by the state the horses come home in.
The owners sometimes show concern and remorse for the horses - Sir Alex Ferguson made a comment after his jockey pulled his horse up yesterday as it was shattered. Sir Alex appeared to be content with that jockeys decision because at least the horse came home safely.
The trainers, although they have some regard for the horses, have the prestige of winning such races forefront in their minds. Horses are a means to an end and as one goes out another comes in, unless of course they happen to chance upon one of all the all time greats. However, to become an all time great they've had to survive some gruelling runs and 41/2 miles with huge fences and a cavalry charge to all sides is as gruelling as it gets. The Grand National is becoming more about who manages to survive than about it being a challenging race.
I am not against horse racing on the flat and in fact I used to work as a groom/rider at a racing stables many years ago. That's not me saying that flat racing is any better than steeplechasing, it's simply the serious dangers involved with some of these jumps have to make a person ask whether it's really worth the risk.
Yesterday alone 4 horses died as a result of horse racing. 2 on the Aintree course (unfortunately it would seem Dooneys Gate did not die immediately and had to be destroyed) and 2 on other courses. One of which broke down and had to be destroyed, bringing this years deaths alone to around 60.
If the National is to continue something has to be done to improve the course though lowering the fences will just make the course faster and more dangerous.
Brandy you're completely right about the exhaustion levels of the horses. They were ridden hard and it showed at the end. While you would expect a horse to be physically shattered at the end of 41/2 miles some of the grooms were extremely concerned about the health of the horses bought back - it was just too much.
The saddest part is that I know what happens to many of the racehorses that fall foul of being 'the best'. It would be nice to know they all retire to a nice green field living off the earnings they bust a heart for but sadly it's far from the truth.
My comment on human deaths has ruffled a few feathers but it does beg the question if the human death toll on these races were equivalent to that as stands of horses, would we even be having this debate? Or would the Grand National et al have been cancelled or modified?
I don't suggest banning all sports willy nilly, human participation is voluntary and as such is their choice. I just struggle to comprehend a sport that in any way costs the life of an innocent animal.
porshiepoo
10-Apr-11, 19:00
"It appears the one human death at Aintree wasn't enough to put a stop to it but here's to hoping in the future"....... That is sick, incidentally Peter Toole who was thrown off at the first jump, sustained a serious head injury, bleeding in the brain and is now in intensive care in an induced coma - bet you're really pleased about that?
Pleased? Nah, not so much.
Serve him right for entering the stupid race in the first place? Yep.
Mind you I suspect his life will actually mean something to those tending him. He'll get the best care and I suspect will make a full recovery and probably enter the race again in the future.
Of course that choice will be his to make won't it.
On the other side of the coin you have the horses. Broken legs due to racing - destroyed. Breaking down due to racing too hard - destroyed.
They do not have the same choice, care or dignity.
Mcelvey was badly injured in the National in 2007 and instead of being retired or reduced to easier races he was put back into the National in 2008 after 1 year off (apart from 2 small races where he fared badly) and died alongside 2 others.
Porshiepoo "I am not against horse racing on the flat and in fact I used to work as a groom/rider at a racing stables many years ago."
Flat Racing, horses killed - too many injuries to mention:
Ascot (Flat): Anhar. Soroor. Veracity. Ivy Creek. Mariotto.
Ayr (Flat): Finoon. Prime Powered.
Carlisle (Flat): Interdiamonds. Princess Emma.
Catterick (Flat): Miserere. Camelot Communion. Deserted Dane.
Chepstow (Flat): One Night In Paris. Gasmanfightsback.
Doncaster (Flat): Nobelix. Hoh Wotanife.
Folkestone (Flat): Careless Whisper.
Lingfield (Flat): Captain James Cook. Romantic Gift.
Newcastle (Flat): Allspin
Sandown (Flat): Tralfagar Bay. Kaateb. Queens Speech.
Warwick (Flat): Fandangobay. Ashbys Dance
Not against horse racing on the flat?.. Tut tut....
"Of the horses who survive their race 82% of flat race horses, older than three years of age suffer from bleeding lungs, others suffer from gastric ulcers, which are present in no fewer than 93% of horses in training, in whom the condition gets progressively worse."*
* http://www.merseysideanimalrights.co.uk/horse_racing.htm (http://www.merseysideanimalrights.co.uk/horse_racing.htm)
Time heals. Lets call it a 11D
I really wish you would answer, because in 8 years working full time in uk abbattoirs, I have never seen animals intentionally mishandles and barring three accidental escapees, where there was a risk to human life, animals were not hounded or suffered stress beyond what careful handling by an experienced stock man would induce. The UK has one of the most consistent and enforced welfare monitoring programmes at slaughter. I am trying to imagine what welfare horror you witnessed on the occasion you visited a slaughterhouse. Or if you were visiting in a non professional capacity and you mistook the clonic kicking as recovery of the animals after they had been shackled? Slaughterhouses are interested in keeping their animals calm and give them a quick painless and stress free death because it makes better meat and there is less waste. So there is no comparing animal welfare at abbattoirs and at badly designed race tracks such as the grand national.
By the way, 11D? Would you mean a penny short of a shilling? Would that be me or you?
I really wish you would answer, because in 8 years working full time in uk abbattoirs, I have never seen animals intentionally mishandles and barring three accidental escapees, where there was a risk to human life, animals were not hounded or suffered stress beyond what careful handling by an experienced stock man would induce. The UK has one of the most consistent and enforced welfare monitoring programmes at slaughter. I am trying to imagine what welfare horror you witnessed on the occasion you visited a slaughterhouse. Or if you were visiting in a non professional capacity and you mistook the clonic kicking as recovery of the animals after they had been shackled? Slaughterhouses are interested in keeping their animals calm and give them a quick painless and stress free death because it makes better meat and there is less waste. So there is no comparing animal welfare at abbattoirs and at badly designed race tracks such as the grand national.
By the way, 11D? Would you mean a penny short of a shilling? Would that be me or you?
You're getting insulting now, but not unexpected..
All I said was " I've been inside slaughter houses (maybe why I went vegetarian for two years).. " and further on I gave two links - are you saying these links are not true?
Personally I do not understand how anyone could do that job, but then that's my own personal opinion.. As A fire Officer I carried out numerous inspections (11D's) to such places; (most interesting was a crematorium, seeing the bit of thigh left over from an earlier burning, the 'cannon balls' to crush the bones, the dust blown off and then going back to Station for lunch.. )
However I digress, it was simply the actually stunning and killing of these animals that I was unable to stomach and the robotic way this killing was carried out
How anyone who can kill defensive animals and compare it to a race course is beyond my understanding.
Each to his own.
Told you Porshie.
I to wish the same fate on people that take part in cruel sports-so sue me
Told you Porshie.
I to wish the same fate on people that take part in cruel sports-so sue me
Well because of that I am not going to use your Mobile Valeting - or was that Northerner?
PS I don't take part in cruel sports
porshiepoo
10-Apr-11, 21:04
I really wish you would answer, because in 8 years working full time in uk abbattoirs, I have never seen animals intentionally mishandles and barring three accidental escapees, where there was a risk to human life, animals were not hounded or suffered stress beyond what careful handling by an experienced stock man would induce. The UK has one of the most consistent and enforced welfare monitoring programmes at slaughter. I am trying to imagine what welfare horror you witnessed on the occasion you visited a slaughterhouse. Or if you were visiting in a non professional capacity and you mistook the clonic kicking as recovery of the animals after they had been shackled? Slaughterhouses are interested in keeping their animals calm and give them a quick painless and stress free death because it makes better meat and there is less waste. So there is no comparing animal welfare at abbattoirs and at badly designed race tracks such as the grand national.
By the way, 11D? Would you mean a penny short of a shilling? Would that be me or you?
I've seen a few undercover videos of what goes on in some abattoirs though I've not been to any personally. One of the posters in this thread put a link to a document with regards to the mistreatment of animals in abattoirs. Quite horrendous to read and the videos I've seen have also been horrific.
porshiepoo
10-Apr-11, 21:10
Porshiepoo "I am not against horse racing on the flat and in fact I used to work as a groom/rider at a racing stables many years ago."
Flat Racing, horses killed - too many injuries to mention:
Ascot (Flat): Anhar. Soroor. Veracity. Ivy Creek. Mariotto.
Ayr (Flat): Finoon. Prime Powered.
Carlisle (Flat): Interdiamonds. Princess Emma.
Catterick (Flat): Miserere. Camelot Communion. Deserted Dane.
Chepstow (Flat): One Night In Paris. Gasmanfightsback.
Doncaster (Flat): Nobelix. Hoh Wotanife.
Folkestone (Flat): Careless Whisper.
Lingfield (Flat): Captain James Cook. Romantic Gift.
Newcastle (Flat): Allspin
Sandown (Flat): Tralfagar Bay. Kaateb. Queens Speech.
Warwick (Flat): Fandangobay. Ashbys Dance
Not against horse racing on the flat?.. Tut tut....
"Of the horses who survive their race 82% of flat race horses, older than three years of age suffer from bleeding lungs, others suffer from gastric ulcers, which are present in no fewer than 93% of horses in training, in whom the condition gets progressively worse."*
* http://www.merseysideanimalrights.co.uk/horse_racing.htm (http://www.merseysideanimalrights.co.uk/horse_racing.htm)
You're correct and I've witnessed many of those injuries caused to the horses. I also know what happens to many of those broken horses and it's not pleasant.
Like I said before I'm not saying that flat racing is any more acceptable than NH racing and with that comment in mind I can see how contradictory it is for me to say that I'm not against flat racing, given the injuries and deaths that occur.
Like I said before I'm not saying that flat racing is any more acceptable than NH racing and with that comment in mind I can see how contradictory it is for me to say that I'm not against flat racing, given the injuries and deaths that occur.
Your an extremist. :eek: theres no inbetween. That's where your argument fails. There's probably people around who would defend vegetables, fruit and flowers against the beastly domination of the human species over other living things.
I believe humans should treat animals with due respect but they need to know whose boss.
I don't believe thats arrogant. Humans have domesticated horses to the point of excellence in their ability to run and jump. Its crazy to call it cruel and nasty and those of us who support it, morons. It is what it is and unless horses ever evolve the ability to talk and think they are tools of man and subject to animal rights.
I think your going too far in your denouncement but your entitled to it. Its good to let rip though. Clears the tubes. Youv been quite since Rheghead pegged you for the pet buzzard affair.
I particularly enjoy those programmes when funny American hunters shoot each other in the head, and I laughed my socks off when our local pub landlord shot another shooter in the face on a grouse shoot. Apparently they were stood facing each other. :Razz
You're getting insulting now, but not unexpected..
All I said was " I've been inside slaughter houses (maybe why I went vegetarian for two years).. " and further on I gave two links - are you saying these links are not true?
However I digress, it was simply the actually stunning and killing of these animals that I was unable to stomach and the robotic way this killing was carried out
How anyone who can kill defensive animals and compare it to a race course is beyond my understanding.
Each to his own.
You eat those defenceless animals, and so I would hope that you expect them to be killed humanely.
Are your links/videos and can tell you that they are a version of the truth. More than half of the first video is dedicated to production systems which are categorically cruel and wrong. But people want a chicken at £2.99. The crates pictured are the kind used in the USA and eastern europe ( where a whole lot of the cheap meat on the supermarket shelf comes from ( even if it says product of GB, all that need to happen is that a process is carried out here for it to become GB- for example cutting into pork chops). I suspect that most of this video is from american animal factories (formaly known as farms) and abbattoirs because of the accents of the narrators and because the images of cows being pulled off the back of trucks would lead to the immediate prosecution and suspension of production. Animal welfare charges are very expensive for abbatoirs and the vets are there during the whole time of production. For the larger part of the video the stunning was well carried out. Infact if the slaughterman was a complete arse, he would have skipped the stunning of the sheep brought in in a wheelbarrow as that animal would not have moved. He stunned that animal so it would not feel the shackling and sticking. When the wheelbarrow tipped, while it would make people gasp, the animal was totally stunned and considering it's state (the farmer/producer should never have transported an animal in that state and I hope he was prosecuted for it) the stunning probably killed it. But even if it hadn't it had been stunned and rendered insensitive. The kicking after stunning and sticking is normal. It's called clonic movement, is reflexive and does not mean the animal is returning to conciousness. Yes there were cruel things being done to piglets on farms, chickens/turkeys being culled and collected and the horrific way that those cows were unloaded and treated (especially in Kosher slaughter which is quite rare here- though there is alot of halal which I think is just as atrocious), but hand on heart I can tell you that this would not be tolerated in the UK. There is constant enforcement in abbattoirs and slaughterhouses. Slaughterhouses have to be very careful about they way they handle their animals, not only because breaking the law impacts them significantly economically but also because the end product, meat, is damaged when animals are stressed and mis-handled.
You might consider me insulting, just as I considered you such when I believed you were calling me a penny short of a shilling (D by the way is the letter for penny in old money). 11D's are a document apparently very specific to your profession which you recognize instantly. My profession is to make sure that animals are respected and well treated in life and at their death. If when I were working during those 8 years at a slaughterhouse where animal welfare was compromised I would have recognized this as instantly as you do your 11D, stopped it from happening and recommended for prosecution and I would not care about being perceived as insulting either.
Sorry about the 11D - I had just been called for my evening meal so did not - perchance to say - explain what a 11D actually was. But really that was all academic, your"By the way, 11D? Would you mean a penny short of a shilling? Would that be me or you?" I do know what a penny is, my presumption was you were intimating I might be, colloquially; a brick short of a load - hence my reference to insulting.
I did not see what you call cruelty (I never said I did) but although I have never turned a hair in levering out a barbequed body from a car wreck, or collecting bits of a body from explosions, I could never kill an animal and watching this happen was unpleasant.
Call me a hypocrite if you like, because I eat meat.. nevertheless I could never attend an autopsy where the skull is cut and the brain removed, I could never watch an undertaker embalming, although these things may well happen to me - but I won't be there..
But, like you - that's the way we are...
Aaldtimer
11-Apr-11, 03:05
Actually Ju,... (D by the way is the letter for penny in old money). ...it isn't, "d" is.:)
Considering that in 1971 I was barely more than a twinkle in my fathers eye and he did not even live in the UK, I think that I am doing OK knowing what I do about shillings, farthings and pennies.
Bekisman, it is good then, that there are undertakers, pathologists, vets and slaughtermen that do the jobs that we don't want to do . All the more respect to them. I for example have no problem with autopsies, blood or strong smells, but the sight of plastic surgery on the face has me switching channels on TV.
It was late last night and I rambled a bit when I replied to your post, but I have to say that cruelty was definately carried out especially when unloading those cows, but that would never happen in a UK slaughterhouse. The protocol for a cow that is down is that it is shot and bled where it is and only moved when dead).
But going back to the grand national, the number of horses being driven to their deaths every year in this race is far too many. If I were to call anyone hypocritical it would be the UK parliament who will once in a while motion against bullfighting in Spain, yet have not legislated changes that make horse racing safer for the horses. Yes, I know that the horse racing does not set out intentionally to kill the horse, but where these two sports (?????) are comparable is that the animal element is disposable and it does not really matter what you do to it to get your end result- entertaiment.
porshiepoo
11-Apr-11, 08:40
Your an extremist. :eek: theres no inbetween. That's where your argument fails. There's probably people around who would defend vegetables, fruit and flowers against the beastly domination of the human species over other living things.
I believe humans should treat animals with due respect but they need to know whose boss.
I don't believe thats arrogant. Humans have domesticated horses to the point of excellence in their ability to run and jump. Its crazy to call it cruel and nasty and those of us who support it, morons. It is what it is and unless horses ever evolve the ability to talk and think they are tools of man and subject to animal rights.
I think your going too far in your denouncement but your entitled to it. Its good to let rip though. Clears the tubes. Youv been quite since Rheghead pegged you for the pet buzzard affair.
You'll have to refresh my memory on Rheghead pegging me for the "pet buzzard affair" as I honestly do not remember it. My memory is dubious of late granted but you must be going waaaay back. I assure you though comments made on here do not render me speechless or unwilling to post on the org (unfortunately some may say).
"No inbetween". I'll have to disagree with that (of course lol). I'm not suggesting an out and out ban of all horse racing, just some modification to help prevent more unnecessary deaths and suffering.
It's just my opinion that the Grand National is a barbaric race that statistically WILL have loss of life due to it being so hard.
Many people believe we have the right to expect a "domesticated" animal to perform as humans see fit, personally I don't if it could result in the death of that animal purely for entertainment and/or monetary profits.
Of course I understand Joe publics love of the races. Watching the jockeys mount their horses and parade round, making bets, screaming your horse on to the finish line and all the pomp and ceremony thereafter can create an electric atmosphere. However, look beyond the excitement and really watch the horses being whipped during the race, finishing so broken some have to be put down and the deaths and for me it takes away any of that initial excitement.
The JC rules on whip useage are appalling and the punishment for literally flogging a horse home is dismal. The winner at Aintree got a 5 day ban :roll:, do you think he cares about that? Not a jot - 5 days is nothing if that whipping got your horse past the Aintree post first.
More stringent rules need to be put in place now and they shouldn't be so self regulating.
If I walk my dog down the road and hit it with a whip to make it walk faster you can bet your life the SSPCA would be getting a load of phone calls and my dog would be taken away.
northener
11-Apr-11, 08:57
Well because of that I am not going to use your Mobile Valeting - or was that Northerner?
.......
:eek:
Eh?
What have I done now?
:eek:
Eh?
What have I done now?
Well it was OK for a religious bigot to not want to use your driving courses as you 'mocked' religion..
Only in my case I'm joking and not being serious (of course) ;)
*laughs* northerner.. because your a bad bad man!! *winks*
Porshie gave me negative rep .. *sniff* .. That's me told then .. *sniff*
No point arguing with an idiot though, they just drag you down to their level and beat you on experience. This dullard went from calling people "sick" and "in need of help" for watching or betting on a race she doesnt approve of to "As for getting all ranty when people dont agree with me .. far from it". I rest my case.
Go to go now Porshie, I am off to play conkers with a couple of terrapins.
Sarcastic idiot. Lowest form of wit. Porshie has made a valid point, and is in no way taking a hissy fit. It's so easy to flip the arguement and accuse her of that when you don't have anything decent to say in response. She wasn't criticising people who bet but rightly blasting pig-ignorant people like you who can't take see that it is a cruel sport. I hope visitors to this site/Caithness don't get the impression we are all this rude.
All fair points!
The grooms tend to be more attached to the horses as they're the ones handling them every day so obviously they would be the ones hardest hit by the state the horses come home in.
The owners sometimes show concern and remorse for the horses - Sir Alex Ferguson made a comment after his jockey pulled his horse up yesterday as it was shattered. Sir Alex appeared to be content with that jockeys decision because at least the horse came home safely.
The trainers, although they have some regard for the horses, have the prestige of winning such races forefront in their minds. Horses are a means to an end and as one goes out another comes in, unless of course they happen to chance upon one of all the all time greats. However, to become an all time great they've had to survive some gruelling runs and 41/2 miles with huge fences and a cavalry charge to all sides is as gruelling as it gets. The Grand National is becoming more about who manages to survive than about it being a challenging race.
I am not against horse racing on the flat and in fact I used to work as a groom/rider at a racing stables many years ago. That's not me saying that flat racing is any better than steeplechasing, it's simply the serious dangers involved with some of these jumps have to make a person ask whether it's really worth the risk.
Yesterday alone 4 horses died as a result of horse racing. 2 on the Aintree course (unfortunately it would seem Dooneys Gate did not die immediately and had to be destroyed) and 2 on other courses. One of which broke down and had to be destroyed, bringing this years deaths alone to around 60.
If the National is to continue something has to be done to improve the course though lowering the fences will just make the course faster and more dangerous.
Brandy you're completely right about the exhaustion levels of the horses. They were ridden hard and it showed at the end. While you would expect a horse to be physically shattered at the end of 41/2 miles some of the grooms were extremely concerned about the health of the horses bought back - it was just too much.
The saddest part is that I know what happens to many of the racehorses that fall foul of being 'the best'. It would be nice to know they all retire to a nice green field living off the earnings they bust a heart for but sadly it's far from the truth.
My comment on human deaths has ruffled a few feathers but it does beg the question if the human death toll on these races were equivalent to that as stands of horses, would we even be having this debate? Or would the Grand National et al have been cancelled or modified?
I don't suggest banning all sports willy nilly, human participation is voluntary and as such is their choice. I just struggle to comprehend a sport that in any way costs the life of an innocent animal.
In absolute agreement. I seem to one of few members who understand your comment on human fatalities correctly. I suspect people are drawing their own conclusions to suit themselves and whatever half-arsed, narrow-minded argument they are trying to squeeze. If more jockeys were seriously injured/killed, things would be changed. The fact that animals are suffering for the sake of tradition is shocking, and in this day and age we need to make changes.
The Drunken Duck
12-Apr-11, 08:50
Sarcastic idiot. Lowest form of wit. Porshie has made a valid point, and is in no way taking a hissy fit. It's so easy to flip the arguement and accuse her of that when you don't have anything decent to say in response. She wasn't criticising people who bet but rightly blasting pig-ignorant people like you who can't take see that it is a cruel sport. I hope visitors to this site/Caithness don't get the impression we are all this rude.
Saracsm is the highest form of humour. People only say otherwise because they cant do it.
Why dont you go outside, tilt your head to one side and let your brain have the dump it so desperatly needs. Now brace yourself, because if you had read our little tete a tete you would already have seen my point. But then, judging by your avatar, intelligence isnt your strongest suit.
Porshie was having a hissy fit. She went from calling people "sick" and "in need of help" because they either watch or bet on the National, and dont agree with her views, to stating "As for me getting all ranty .. far from it", sorry but thats a hissy fit in my book. And pretty damn personal. Do you seriously think that those words amount to "not criticising people ??" as you say, where did you take English ?? because I think most people would. Add in the fact that she is basically wishing for more human deaths in a post that berates others for not caring enough about animals and I think that is a massive contradiction from someone who has climbed to the top of the moral ground and got all shouty. Now I know that my attitude does not fit in with a lot of people here. Lots of people on this forum launch into others and then cry when they get the same back, if Porshie cant take a like for like response to her actions in a situation where she has had zero reluctance in dishing it out I suggest she (and you) either dont it or man up, dry your eyes, and stop acting like a couple of big girls blouses when you get back what you dish out.
And after five pages what has been done except a lot of hot air ??, has anyone written to an MP or the authorities who run the National to actually do something about it .. No. All we have are people sucking up and wasting bandwidth on an issue that they feel strongly enough about to slag others off about but thats about it apparently. If people have actually done something constructive then lets see it. Because all I see is a waste of five pages.
If you think I am "pig ignorant" for not rushing in to agree with you and Porshie then fair enough. Your entitled to your view. Just as I am entitled to tell you to blow it out your rectum. But it is funny that you happily act in the same way that you criticise me for, without a trace of irony, and then comment "I hope visitors to this site/Caithness dont get the impression we are all this rude". But then there are a minority like you in Caithness, just like on this site, people who think they have the right to say whatever they want without recourse apparently. And as I saw on my last visit home they both whine like little girls when they get challenged.
I love people like you and Porshie really though. Its comforting to know that when Armageddon hits I wont be bottom of the food chain.
Mystical Potato Head
12-Apr-11, 09:02
Sarcastic idiot. Lowest form of wit. Porshie has made a valid point, and is in no way taking a hissy fit. It's so easy to flip the arguement and accuse her of that when you don't have anything decent to say in response. She wasn't criticising people who bet but rightly blasting pig-ignorant people like you who can't take see that it is a cruel sport. I hope visitors to this site/Caithness don't get the impression we are all this rude.
You're guilty of double standards.In one sentence you say " I hope visitors to this site/Caithness don't get the impression we are all this rude",thats after you've called someone a sarcastic idiot,followed by "pig-ignorant people like you",if thats not being rude then what is it? Your comments are worse than the sarcasm you seem to adhore.
"I hope visitors to this site/Caithness don't get the impression we are all this rude."
Your doing your very best to give them that impression.Nothing worse than a hypocrite.
Oops,Drunken Duck beat me to it.Very well put as well.
porshiepoo
12-Apr-11, 09:14
The Drunken Duck;839865]Saracsm is the highest form of humour. People only say otherwise because they cant do it.Nope, sarcasm is usually dished out by those who have low self esteem and wish to disguise that fact by bullying others (yes sarcasm is considered by many as a form of bullying). Unfortunately for you it disguised nothing.
Why dont you go outside, tilt your head to one side and let your brain have the dump it so desperatly needs. Now brace yourself, because if you had read our little tete a tete you would already have seen my point. But then, judging by your avatar, intelligence isnt your strongest suit.Pot/Kettle. You have no ability to argue your point or make any constructive comments hence you have to slather like the toddler you accuse me of being.
Porshie was having a hissy fit. She went from calling people "sick" and "in need of help" because they either watch or bet on the National, and dont agree with her views, to stating "As for me getting all ranty .. far from it", sorry but thats a hissy fit in my book. And pretty damn personal. Do you seriously think that those words amount to "not criticising people ??" as you say, where did you take English ?? because I think most people would. Add in the fact that she is basically wishing for more human deaths in a post that berates others for not caring enough about animals and I think that is a massive contradiction from someone who has climbed to the top of the moral ground and got all shouty. Now I know that my attitude does not fit in with a lot of people here. Lots of people on this forum launch into others and then cry when they get the same back, if Porshie cant take a like for like response to her actions in a situation where she has had zero reluctance in dishing it out I suggest she (and you) either dont it or man up, dry your eyes, and stop acting like a couple of big girls blouses when you get back what you dish out.Hissy fit would suggest a verbal lashing based on a trivial matter. As a pro cruel sport person you would of course consider animal death as trivial.
And after five pages what has been done except a lot of hot air ??, has anyone written to an MP or the authorities who run the National to actually do something about it .. No. All we have are people sucking up and wasting bandwidth on an issue that they feel strongly enough about to slag others off about but thats about it apparently. If people have actually done something constructive then lets see it. Because all I see is a waste of five pages.You really do know nothing! You do not know my involvement with animal rights, you do not know my level of activity to stop these sports and you basically know very little about rather alot.
If you think I am "pig ignorant" for not rushing in to agree with you and Porshie then fair enough. Your entitled to your view. Pig ignorant for having an opinion? Nope.
Pig ignorant for participating in cruel sports? Oh yeah!
Just as I am entitled to tell you to blow it out your rectum. But it is funny that you happily act in the same way that you criticise me for, without a trace of irony, and then comment "I hope visitors to this site/Caithness dont get the impression we are all this rude". But then there are a minority like you in Caithness, just like on this site, people who think they have the right to say whatever they want without recourse apparently. And as I saw on my last visit home they both whine like little girls when they get challenged.I would suggest that that "whining" has actually rubbed off on you and you now have it down to a tee.
Or is it that you can do no more than accuse people of whining when they dare to challenge you back? Again, hides your lack of intelligence doesn't it!
I love people like you and Porshie really though. Its comforting to know that when Armageddon hits I wont be bottom of the food chain.Correct. Your head, ego and ignorance is so bloomin large you'll be the first target hit!
northener
12-Apr-11, 09:24
How about wasp racing then?:cool:
Nobody cares about them.
How about wasp racing then?:cool:
Nobody cares about them.
Oh I do care, and when I finally catch the little devil, he/she will be dispatched quickly and viciously
A propos of nothing, my dear old Dad, when he was alive (obviously) had a bon mot regarding sarcasm.
"Sarcasm", he would opine, "is the lowest form of wit. Practised only by fools, it runs in one ear and out the other like water off a duck's back".
I share my father's surreal take on life and its many oddities. As a master of the non sequitur, he would appreciate the following utterance by his son
"Wasp racing solves two problems
a) Wasps cease to be 'pointless' when they have a purpose in life which reverberates with the sympathies of the human race by providing spectacle and excitement, rather than fear, annoyance and pain.
b) Well-raced wasps would lack the purpose and energy to sting humans."
As Del Boy, would say - "Mange Tout!"
Why thank you! It's always nice to be appreciated by someone of discrimination and intellectual prowess.
But I must cross swords with you regarding the remark concerning sarcasm. You may take a pop at me, Sirrah, but nobody denigrates my father without fear of riposte.
Ergo, here it is:
You are clearly a man of discernment, whose sense of humour has sadly been temporarily atrophied. I can do no more than to forgive you your temporary lapse. There is no need to apologise. I take it all in good part, as I would the smallest of wasp bites. A temporary interruption of the bliss of being alive in a wondrous world, Sir! And all the sweeter for having persuaded you that the smile is a greater weapon than the scowl.
porshiepoo
12-Apr-11, 10:14
Well i wont waste sarcasm on you and say "that is the most interesting post i have ever read on the org" and be honest and say what a load of shite.
Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, a saying practiced by those who cant do sarcasm and any sarcastic comment directed at them usually goes straight over their heads.
Sarcasm is best practiced by the quick thinking...not fools
But if sarcasm is ALL you've got..........................
Mystical Potato Head
12-Apr-11, 10:27
At no point did i denigrate your father,all i did was give my opinion on sarcasm just as you gave yours and your fathers, but i made no comment whatsoever that disparged the character or reputation of your father,as someone of your intellectual prowess should be perfectly aware of.Your right though,i wasnt going to apologise.
Mystical Potato Head
12-Apr-11, 10:29
But if sarcasm is ALL you've got..........................
But if sarcasm ISNT all you've got....................
Yo Spud Nut -
You don't get it, do you? I was being IRONIC (that is sarcasm with intelligence, by the way!).
I know you weren't "disparging" my father. You couldn't. He'd never been "parged" in his life!
Mystical Potato Head
12-Apr-11, 10:39
Yo Spud Nut -
You don't get it, do you? I was being IRONIC (that is sarcasm with intelligence, by the way!).
I know you weren't "disparging" my father. You couldn't. He'd never been "parged" in his life!
You honestly though my reply was serious? Sarcasm with intelegence right back at ya! BTW.
http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo189/sat5_photos/1232550426_worf20face20palm-1.gif
To porshiepoo
i havent seen anyone talk soo much rubbish in a long time,you are like a little spoiled brat that needs a good spanked dock and sent to bed without any supper(horse burgers)
get over yourself.
How about wasp racing then?:cool:
Nobody cares about them.
wow think of the buzz we would get from wasp racing
wow think of the buzz we would get from wasp racing
Nah, not Wasp Racing, the name is all wrong.
Personally I think it should be Horse Fly Racing. Most punters would never notice the difference. :D
If we forget personal vendettas (and spoiling posts) and look at proven facts then we may then be able to establish a rational outcome to the original post i.e. should the Grand National be banned?
A leading academic in Animal Welfare (Dr. Mark Kennedy, Senior Lecturer at Anglia University (http://www.anglia.ac.uk/ruskin/en/home/news/grand_national_risk.html)) made the following observations:
"The risk of death in flat racing is approximately one fatality per 1000 horse starts, and for steeplechases, such as those at the Aintree meeting, it is around six per 1000 starts,"
So, a horse that is running in a steeplechase is six times more likely to die than a horse running on the flat. On that basis alone we should question, why the risks in steeplechases are so high.
He then goes on to say that “..in the larger jump meetings, such as the three-day Grand National, we can expect around three horse fatalities..
An analogy that might be easier for us to relate to is to consider an individual driving their car every day of the year. According to government statistics from around 10 years ago, the number of human fatalities per 1000 car journeys is 0.00004.
If the risk to the driver was the same as the Grand National i.e. six deaths in 1000 - then you would be lucky to still be alive after six months,".
You can guarantee that no Government would accept carnage on this scale to its human population, but they do nothing when it happens to horses.
Animal Aid also provide some distressing statistics. In an e-mail to me about Steeplechase Races they stated:
“..We know from covert insider info at BHA (British Horseracing Authority) that 250 die on race courses (but we don’t have them all on deathwatch (http://www.horsedeathwatch.com/)) from approx 9,500 races year.
9500 divide by 250 = 1 death every 38 races, that’s about one in every six meetings (with 6 to 7 races per meeting)
There are, on average, 10 horses per race so therefore there will be one horse killed out of every 380 that start, and don’t forget this does not include horses who suffer career ending injuries.
The figures for Aintree (http://www.horsedeathwatch.com/table.php) are even more alarming. Since 2007 there have been 22 horses killed, that is 4.5 per year.
Surely as a so called “civilised” society these figures are unacceptable, and we should act to make sure that this barbaric race is confined to the history books.
You only have to look at some of the threads on this forum about selling pups etc to realise that we are indeed a nation of "animal lovers", so why do "animal loving" people bet on a spectacle which involves so much death and suffering to the horses involved.
porshiepoo
13-Apr-11, 17:20
If we forget personal vendettas (and spoiling posts) and look at proven facts then we may then be able to establish a rational outcome to the original post i.e. should the Grand National be banned?
A leading academic in Animal Welfare (Dr. Mark Kennedy, Senior Lecturer at Anglia University (http://www.anglia.ac.uk/ruskin/en/home/news/grand_national_risk.html)) made the following observations:
"The risk of death in flat racing is approximately one fatality per 1000 horse starts, and for steeplechases, such as those at the Aintree meeting, it is around six per 1000 starts,"
So, a horse that is running in a steeplechase is six times more likely to die than a horse running on the flat. On that basis alone we should question, why the risks in steeplechases are so high.
He then goes on to say that “..in the larger jump meetings, such as the three-day Grand National, we can expect around three horse fatalities..
An analogy that might be easier for us to relate to is to consider an individual driving their car every day of the year. According to government statistics from around 10 years ago, the number of human fatalities per 1000 car journeys is 0.00004.
If the risk to the driver was the same as the Grand National i.e. six deaths in 1000 - then you would be lucky to still be alive after six months,".
You can guarantee that no Government would accept carnage on this scale to its human population, but they do nothing when it happens to horses.
Animal Aid also provide some distressing statistics. In an e-mail to me about Steeplechase Races they stated:
“..We know from covert insider info at BHA (British Horseracing Authority) that 250 die on race courses (but we don’t have them all on deathwatch (http://www.horsedeathwatch.com/)) from approx 9,500 races year.
9500 divide by 250 = 1 death every 38 races, that’s about one in every six meetings (with 6 to 7 races per meeting)
There are, on average, 10 horses per race so therefore there will be one horse killed out of every 380 that start, and don’t forget this does not include horses who suffer career ending injuries.
The figures for Aintree (http://www.horsedeathwatch.com/table.php) are even more alarming. Since 2007 there have been 22 horses killed, that is 4.5 per year.
Surely as a so called “civilised” society these figures are unacceptable, and we should act to make sure that this barbaric race is confined to the history books.
You only have to look at some of the threads on this forum about selling pups etc to realise that we are indeed a nation of "animal lovers", so why do "animal loving" people bet on a spectacle which involves so much death and suffering to the horses involved.
Because they don't look any further than the pomp and ceremony of the occassion. It seems as though they almost choose to be ignorant of what is happening on the course because it's a national race, a huge event, their right to place a bet, shout their horse home and enjoy the day out. They do not want to know that their participation in whatever small part, is actually causing pain and suffering to an animal.
Nations are now aware of the deaths on the course but how many of those people have given it any more than just a cursory, passing thought? Not many because it may then make them feel guilty and that would take the enjoyment out of the sport for them, after all how could any humane person take further part in a sport that has opened their eyes to such blatant cruelty, or at the very least statistically unacceptable deaths, in the name of entertainment?
So, they choose to keep the blinkers on and berate anyone who plays any part in raising awareness of the cruelties of NH racing. Shouting for all their worth that tis I and others like me who are extremists or having a hissy fit and convincing themselves that that simply must be the reason we speak against the sport, not because it's cruel or barbaric, it's just we have nothing better to moan about.
I'm wondering what would happen if those who are for the Grand National carrying on sit and watch the race close up, in slow motion, watch the whippings the horses get, witness the deaths of the horses, the horses that break down and are destroyed, the horses who's legs break and the poor sods who give so much they're hearts or lungs simply burst. Would they STILL say it's a race worthy of a 'humane' society or would their eyes finally be opened to what it really is?
The statistics you have laid out Anfield are horrendous. Much goes on behind closed doors and deaths often occur after a race when away from the course. Although these deaths are a direct result of racing are they reported as such? There's many that aren't.
I too believe that if the human fatalities (even just in racing) were equivalent to that of the horses then something would be done and the public would be alot less accepting of it too.
Is it too much to ask a civilised, humane society to show a little more humanity toward what is in effect a game of Russian Roulette followed by a flogging for the survivors?
Mystical Potato Head
13-Apr-11, 17:56
Talk about Groundhog Day.
orkneycadian
13-Apr-11, 18:18
Indeed. Once again, folk who are keen to make a song and dance about the demise of living creatures close to their hearts, but who think nothing of jumping in their car / on their bike on a summers day and anihilating a few hundred or even thousand living creatures on the grille / bonnet / windscreen just in the name of them going to the shops!
Probably the same folk that give potions to their pets to destroy more even living creatures in the form of fleas, ticks or worms, but feel no guilt over their deaths! (the fleas, etc, not the pets....)
It's good to see Porshiepoo and Anfield on the same side for a change although it must feel like your both flogging a dead horse. :lol:
Nothing wrong with your support for horses although your wish for human casualties betrays a certain weakness in your argument.
We all know that the Grand National is a dangerous race for man and beast but I love it. Its one of the sporting spectacles of the modern world and with the exception of an ashes test match or watching Scotland play in a world cup final there's not a sporting event I would rather see than the Grand National.
Ive been following the debate in the national press all week and the momentum is getting almost orglike in its condemnation. Its about time that those of us who support national Hunt racing stood up to the double standards of people who would happily cut the head of a live cabbage but complain about the conditions thoroughbred horses have to put up with to earn their oats.
You can take a horse to water but you canna make it drink. Those horses love it. They are trained to perfection. Their whole lives are centred on racing. They are fed and watered and pampered daily and most of them will live to a ripe old age. Some will die during a race. As a supporter of racing I say thats a price worth paying.
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