View Full Version : mobile phones and driving
[mad] i see drivers are still using their hand held mobiles when driving despite the law banning this practice. Very frightening on the Inverness road to see a big lorry coming round the bend with one hand on the phone and one on the steering wheel - very dangerous. I am surprised there has not been a serious accident YET.
Also I get very annoyed [evil] to see people using their mobile phones in the hospital canteen, especially when staff are doing it. What do others think?
Hospitals have issued Doctors with Bleepers for years and they work the same way as Mobiles.
It's even been pointed out at the BMA Conference that Mobiles are not the problem they are made out to be.
Has anybody seen any specific figures as to what range they are suppose to cause a problem over and to exactally what equipment and how?
tides of pentland firth
13-Oct-04, 10:54
I saw a woman twice the otherday, in the morning, then again in the afternoon. Both times driving while talking on the phone. Outrageous.
i guess it is like every other rule or law it has to be broken and there are plenty of people willing to do it.
Naefearjustbeer
13-Oct-04, 20:09
Spotted a young girl driving round the town with a mobile phone perched on the steering wheel and from the lenth of time and what I observed she must of been typing a text message :( This must take a lot more concentration than just talking on the phone which is bad enough..... Again a policeman on the beat walking the town would discourage this type of thing.
What's the difference between talking to a mobile and talking to a passenger?
Beats me how they manage to drive and use a mobile, I cant drive and can only just manage to use a mobile.. [lol]
:eek: To Jaws - the difference between talking to a passenger and talking on a mobile is that you can talk to a passenger without taking your eyes off the road and your hands off the wheel, whereas on a mobile phone you have only one hand on the steering wheel and lose concentration and dont look on the road when switching on and switching off while holding the mobile phone - unless you use the headphone system.
Does nobody blow their noses these days or scratch their ear or look for anything in the car or change gear or switch on the radio or change stations on the radio or put heir lights on or turn the heater up or put the blower on or put the wipers on or look at the scenery or ever get distracted by something in a field or a shop or take their hands off the wheel for any reason?
Do drivers never point anything out to their passenger and never look towards them when they are driving? I could have sworn I have seen that happen but perhaps I was just dreaming, not that I often drive in my sleep.
Drivers are distracted by a phone but are not distracted by their car radio or distracted by their passengers spellbinding conversation? Do drivers never get distracted or take their eyes off the road because they are wondering just what the problem is with their children on the back seat. Perhaps children have all become little angels and never pester when they are in a car.
How many people never drive even a short distance with their hand on the gear lever or their elbow on the door ledge and only one hand on the steering wheel?
And why is it that having only one hand on the steering wheel has suddenly become ‘dangerous’ when it has not been so since the first motor vehicle with a steering wheel was invented?
I know that hand-signals have been removed from the Driving Test but when they were an obligatory part of it nobody suggested that flapping your arm about outside the drivers door window with only one hand on the steering wheel and carrying out a manoeuvre at the same time was a dangerous practice, the law required that it was done.
I find it strange that nobody ever seems to use a mobile when they are driving, but just see everybody else doing it. I hope they are all walking when they see this happen and not driving themselves because if they are they should be watching the road and not peering into other vehicles!
Now what was it that I heard about sin and doing something with stones?
Well JAWS, I'm sure that if you actually admitted any of those things to the arresting officer, you'd be getting a hefty fine and losing you license for dangerous driving.
The use of mobile phones is easily proven so it is easy to make it illegal.
If you have to look at the stem to put on your wipers then you should not be driving. If you can remember hand signals you probably shouldnt be driving anyway. Do you wear a flat cap?
Hate to disagree with you JAWS as never have before but in the days of hand signals cars didn't drive nearly so fast and that's why there are all these new rules about what you can and can't do - like eating. That's not allowed any more when driving. All the other things you mention - if you can't do them without taking your eyes off the road, then you shouldn't and you should make sure you know where all the necessary switches etc. are without looking. Of course we're talking about an ideal world here but with the speeds people drive around these days you really do need full concentration, 'specially on the Murkle road with all those maniacs driving at 100 mph.
What beats me is how all those people on TV get away with talking on camera while they're driving - often looking sideways. That's worse than mobile phones so why isn't it illegal? Unless of course it's all faked and they're not really moving.
Its easy to be pious. The thing we need to do is remember that we are all guilty of behaviour that doesnt make sense and we are also all guilty of thinking we are safer than we are. Talking to a passenger, shouting at the kids - particularly - fiddling with the radio to change it or put a tape or CD in it is dangerous, I once put a car through a wall follwing a lapse in concentration when reaching for a sweetie!!! fortunately we were all ok - stupid thing to do but familiarity breeds contempt and we are all just a little too complacent about our cars and our driving. UNder normal, not to busy circumstances then chatting and eating and even copping a drink out of a can is not a dangerous thing to do. Add to it a lapse in concentration and catastrophe can happen. Recognise the piotential for that in yourself and driving habiits will change - point the finger and you are just likely to irritate people and sound smug and self righteous.
Zael, has anybody produced and figures for accidents caused by the use of Mobile phones and if so where can I find them? And I mean figures, not "inspired guesswork".
You might not have to look for the wipers but are both hands firmly on the steering wheel when you switch things on or changing gear?
So what's dangerous about changing gear?
And I hate to say this but the Traffic Police love people who never take their eyes off the road in front of them because they rarely check their speed (the speedometre is inside the car), they fail to check their rear view mirror (also inside the car or outside the side windows and incidentally an immediate "Fail" in the driving test) so they invariably fail to see the police car following them and checking their excess speed until the flashing blue light wakes them up! It's they that they usually ask the dead giveaway question "Yes officer, what have I done wrong?"
They are usualy to polite to answer with the full truth that you were:-
1. Exceeding the speed limit.
2. Failing to make use of your rear view mirrors
3. Driving without paying due care and attention to the traffic and other road users around you,
and most of all
4. Stupid enough to do all that without seeing me following you for the distance that I was able to, despite my vehicle being painted in bright reflective colours and, even more of a give away, having "Police" plastered all over it in very big letters!
What is going on around you and on your instrument panel is often as important in allerting you to danger as what is going on through your front windscreen.
Yes I can remember Hand signals and Yes I wear a Flat Cap, a habit I got into when I was working because the other headgear was not practical in a car!
And, before the question is asked, yes I do wear spectacles so I am not driving with defective, uncorrected vision.
Badger, seeing you seem to know about the speed of cars of present and by-gone days, 1. How long has there been a national maximum speed limit. (Approximate will do)
2. Why was it implemented?
3. Why were those particular speeds chosen? and
4. Why was the highest speed, 70 MPH, deemed to be safe?
It would be interesting for everybody to be enlightened so they are aware of the reasons why exceeding those national maximum speeds is dangerous. (By National I mean the maximum permissible speeds outside built up areas where no other speed restrictions apply)
The TV people do nothing more than most people talking to a passenger. And how many TV people have you heard of being involved in serious accidents whilst recording?
How did the Emergency Services communicate before "Hands Free" became available? Where they involved in more accidents before the change?
I am not afraid to admit to anybody that I am no better and no worse than any average driver when it comes to doing "silly" things. Yes I do make mistakes, yes I do occasionally lack concentration, yes I do sometimes miss seeing things I should see and many other things from time to time.
Now who is going to confess that they are a perfect driver and have never, and I mean never, ever done any of the above.
Now as I was asking earlier, what was that saying about Sin and Stones?
Will the first person who wishes to confess to being Perfect please stand up and cast the first one!
Zael, you really must lose this age complex you seem to suffer from it really is such a shame in one so young and inexperienced in life.
Mind you, it might just wear off given enough time.
A flat cap, i knew it, my wee sis will be laughing so hard at this.
You show quite eloquently that you do not have the first clue what you are talking about once again. Why is it that you feel that people should be allowed by law to do something which most people consider to be reckless and dangerous. You seem to think that now that you are old enough to wear a flat cap that you should be allowed to do whatever you please, no matter what other people may think of it or what the outcome might be. You must also be in a really humpy mood now if you cant even remember to put all yer nonsense into one post :) Did no one reply to the thread quick enough for you? Awww poor JAWS, better let you get off wi yer flat cap and mobile to bring havoc to the roads.
Never mind phones, I say we ban drivers with flat caps as they're worse than caravans...
A queek question till all ye "Drivers" so called.....and mobile phone users?.......before the age of mobile telephones how did you communicate whilst driving?????
Golach
I read a research report recently. It said that some hands-free kits increase the risk of brain or aural cancer. They claimed that there was a higher intensity of microwaves around the ear. Don't know how this was supposed to happen though. Something to do with the kit acting as a waveguide or something. Whatever that is.
Maybe its better to drive and phone with a flat cap after all!. Only kidding, you should stop and phone.
Zael, all I have done is ask for "Facts and Figures" and not the "Politico Speak" of "most people consider". At one time "most people considered£ that the Earth was the centre of the Universe, perhaps because of that you consider that it must have been fact and somehow it was people's changing concepts which altered the facts.
All you have demonstrated by that assertion is a prejudice, not a fact.
Oh yes, the flat cap and age. Read carefully and you will find that I said the habit of wearing a flat cap was as a result of work and was long lasting. Age and driving ability has nothing to do with headgear unless you consider people over the age of 16 to be old and senile. Once again you show not knowledge but prejudice.
At no stage have I said that using mobile phones whilst driving was either safe or unsafe, all I have done is asked for factual reasons why people are so convinced that it is unsafe.
All you have done Zael, is show that some peoples views on the subject are formed more by prejudice than they are by reality.
All I have heard is the assumption that "everybody knows it must be dangerous", presumably because it is "new" and has not previously been a common sight.
All I am asking is for a reasonable explanation backed up by some facts as to why "Different" should be redefined as "Dangerous".
I'm still waiting for an answer to my questions Badger. And I would be extremely interested to hear how you know the drivers on the Murkle Road were doing 100 MPH.
What method did you use? Radar? Vascar? Following for at least one third of a mile at an equal distance behind the offending vehicle using a Calibrated Speedometer? By Stop Watch over a given measured distance? Or were you using the tried and tested method of precise guesswork?
And with regards to the speed of modern cars compared with the slow old bangers of yesteryear certain cars were known to travel well within the speed limit on the M1 Motorway at speeds in excess of 175 MPH. I take it you have a modern car which is faster. If so please let me know the make and model as I would like to show my appreciation of such a fine vehicle.
Zael, I have taken what you have said on board and my driving has improved considerably. I have now disposed of my flat-cap and started to wear a base-ball cap. When I want to really impress people with my driving skills I turn the Base-ball cap round the wrong way and turn the volume on my Radio right up to the top!
I think that's what's known as a Mobile Disco isn't it?
Does that make me a better driver than Graham Hill, Jackie Stewart, Jim Clark, Roger Clark? Sorry, Jackie Stewart wore a Tartan Bonnet didn't he so I don't know if that counts.
A doddering old 40 year old also wore flat caps, his name was Juan Manuel Fangio. He won his first F1 Grand Prix at 39 and carried on winning into he was almost 50. And if you think the current set of Boy Racers are better then think again.
He won 48% of his Grand Prixs. Michael the Wonder Boy can only manage 39% and at his age Fangio had not even started.
Oops - sorry I didn't get back sooner Ja ws. Afraid I don't get onto the message board as often as I should but I certainly didn't expect such an avalanche. Also I don't know the answers to any of your questions but am sure I could find out if you really want to know. As for speeds on the Murkle road, you only have to read the Groat every week unless of course you don't believe the police reports. Must admit I was passed there by a car a few days ago which took my breath away - I was in the normal bit so driving at 60 and this car went past so quickly it was over the hill and away before I could blink. Silly really as it would have had to slow down at Castletown (at least I hope so).
I do all sorts of things that strictly speaking one shouldn't but presumably so does everyone (I've seen police driving while talking on a handheld mobile since the ban). Must admit that's not something I do but have been known to grab a sandwich from the seat beside me and that's not legal.
You can't assume everyone is going to behave responsibly behind the wheel and that's why they have to make laws. I don't happen to think that 70 is sensible on a motorway when it should be safe to drive at 90 but I can remember when there weren't any motorways :eek: It's all relative and obviously cars these days can drive much faster. There are still older people driving who didn't have to take a test because it wasn't considered necessary when they started driving . Although I'm not so old I remember it, the first cars were considered exceedingly dangerous at 5 mph and had someone walking in front with a red flag.
Point of all that is, with everyday cars able to drive at 100 mph +, drivers need to be both skilful and responsible - modern cars are lethal weapons. If all the people killed on the roads in one year died in a single incident it would be world news.
Badger, were vehicles travelling at speeds of 100 MPH on the Murkle Road every day the Police would never be away, they would think all their Birthdays had come at once and the road would soon be subject of a restriction lower that the National limit of 60 MPH for single carriageway roads and would be on the front page of the local papers, not in the Court Reports. The reason for the Red Flag was for the usual good old British reaction of “It’s new so it must be dangerous.” They might frighten the horses pass a law against them! The noise they made definitely prevented them sneaking up on an unsuspecting pedestrian.
Everybody forgets that the first ever journey by Passenger Train caused a fatal accident. I never understood why they were not banned also.
Drivers who did not take a driving test, the handful still alive must now be over 90 years of age and if still driving are highly unlikely to be roaring round the roads of Caithness playing “catch me if you can” with the local Constabulary.
If you remember before Motorways then you will remember Ford Zephyrs, Jaguar Mk 2s, Mk 10s and S-types and many of the other models capable of over 100 MPH and brake-fade caused by over-heated drum brake.
.
To save you the trouble of checking the background to the current Speed Restrictions if you bear with me then I will explain. AC Cobras (remember them?), modified by a Carroll Shelby for the Le Mans 24 Hour Race, were road tested on the empty M1 at speeds approaching 200 MPH in the early hours of Sunday Mornings. They were involved in, and neither did they cause, any incidents of any kind. The Motorway Police tried to check their speeds by Radar and failed (The radar wasn’t designed for those speeds) and by following with modified Daimler Dart Sports Cars (They weren’t fast enough). The only way their speed could be checked was by the Pre-Second World War method of two policemen and a stop-watch on Motorway Bridges a measured distance apart waving to one another. Much to their embarrassment they had to admit this and caused such a fuss that it was decided, as usual, that “something must be done!” The then Minister of Transport, a dedicated non-driver and boastful about it, set the National Speed Limit at the Minimum design speed of Motorways, 70 MPH. Motorways were and still are designed for speeds from 70 MPH upwards. (Details if you should require). All other de-restricted roads therefore were set also at that limit. Lower Limits were later set at 50 MPH for all non-Motorway Roads at 50 MPH as a temporary fuel-saving measure during one of the regular panics about oil in the 70s. They were later eventually raised, after much pressure, to the current levels.
None of the limits have been set for any logical safety reason. So much for speed.
Until the fuss over Mobile Phones (Panics over boiled-brains, irradiated ears, and even arthritic-thumbs caused by texting all having failed) was started whilst Police were still using hand-held Home Office Approved radios in their Vehicles, and had been, with apparent danger even during high speed pursuits, since such radios had been in use for at least 50 years. I know of no record of an accident being caused bu such use by Police, Ambulance, Fire Brigade or any other of the people who used radios in vehicles at a similar time. So much for keeping Both hands on the wheel.
As for looking only at the Road, Police Drivers are taught that they should be aware of everything going in and on around their vehicle whilst they are driving including behind, at the side, and even above where that is necessary. Staring straight ahead probably accounts for the ‘Star Trek Syndrome’, “ He just appeared, I don’t know where he came from!” Beam me up, Scottie, I’ve found another one! So much for Road Watching.
As I said previously, all I have heard so far is the “Exact Science of Guesswork”. All I asked was for somebody to provide facts to back up their assertions and none have been forthcoming. Assertions without facts to back them up are nothing more than prejudice.
British Roads are some of the safest in the World. Numbers of fatalities on the roads now are nowhere near those in the 1930s and have not been so for many decades. In fact modern roads are far safer than they have ever been. Before Motor Vehicles or even the Steam Wagon people were being killed in many numbers by bolting horses, often with a carriage still attached.
Does somebody wish to assert that modern drivers are far less competent or well trained than there predecessors. Any volunteers!
smith2585
18-Oct-04, 15:53
at first people started to wear hands free kits but still had to take hand of the wheel to press the button to answer e call and end it so then they gave up. police shud be doing something about it something will happen one of these days
i often see ppl drivin in e town and even txtin and i really think it is unacceptable but surely if police etc were that bothered they would have done something by now :o)
What did I do to deserve that lecture, Jaws? Who said anything about driving too fast every day on the Murkle road? Not me. Think I'll bow out of this topic before I get a book thrown at me. :roll:
George Brims
18-Oct-04, 20:18
To answer Golach's question -
A queek question till all ye "Drivers" so called.....and mobile phone users?.......before the age of mobile telephones how did you communicate whilst driving?????
I usually found that two fingers usually got the message across.
:D
George Brims
18-Oct-04, 20:29
Jaws, the motorways may have been "designed" for speeds over 70mph, but then the Titanic was designed not to sink and the space shuttle not to blow up or fall from the sky.
I grant you that in conditions of very light or no traffic, speeds well above 70 mph might well be manageable, but most times on most British motorways, there is simply too much traffic.
Also consider that your chances of surviving an accident fall off sharply as speeds go past 70mph. Recall high school level physics - kinetic energy is proportional to the SQUARE of velocity - so a car doing 80 mph carries almost tiwce the energy of one doing 60. More importantly so does every bit of your body, which in the event of an accident, somehow has to get rid of all that energy without it doing you fatal damage in the process. Most countries that have overall speed limits seem to set them in the 65 - 75 range for that reason.
Germany? Italy? Perhaps they are just suicidal or physics works differently there!
There is no evidence whatsoever that the 70 limit is any safer than 60 MPH or 80 MPH it was just a figure set to inform Road Engineers what the minimum acceptable design criteria for bends, including vertical bends were. Had the Ministry of Transport done a detailed study into the optimal safe speed then the Engineer who designed the first Motorway certainly kept the fact to himself.
The minimum design standard for bends on exit slip-roads was set at 45 MPH unless a lower speed is indicated. Presumably so that you would sustain less serious injuries on slip-roads than the main carriageway.
If the 70 limit was decided on for safety reasons then why was it not implimented immediately the first Motorway opened. (And no it wasn't the M1, that came some time later)
The Titanic wasn't designed to headbutt icebergs but it did. Space flight is acknowleged to contain certain risks as does everything else so perhaps it should be stopped. All that those two examples show is that no matter what precautions you take accidents occur. That is an unavoidable consequence of living and there is no way to avoid that fact.
The first fatal rail accident occurred when trains were hardly able to travel over 30 MPH. Perhaps the Railways should be restricted to around that speed for safeties sake. Or do foreign trains travelling at over 150 MPH not obey the same rules of Physics.
If you wish to make Motorways and other roads much safer then vehicles travelling in opposite directions should be separated by a central reservation not less than 30 feet wide. That reduces "cross-over" accidents to almost nil.
Of course you cannot travel at 70 MPH on all Motorways at all times and you have to adjust you speed to reflect conditions at the time but even the busiest Motorways are not that busy 24 hours a day. Invariably most accidents occur when Motorways are busy or suffering adverse weather conditions and traffic is travelling at much slower speeds than 70 MPH. Far fewer accidents occur at the faster speeds than otherwise.
Just to clarify a point George Brims, I know of no ships which are "designed" to sink permanently. And the Titanic was not designed to be unsinkable, that was just a good publicity ploy by the White Star Line to encourage trade.
It was designed to stay afloat with only a certain number of it's watertight compartments flooded. It was known that if that number was exceded it could and would sink which it duly .
However I don't suppose at the time that anybody would either want to hear that or indeed wish to hear it as it would have sounded like some sort of excuse.
George Brims
18-Oct-04, 23:59
Well that is indeed true - Titanic suffered damage outside of its design parameters. The designers never imagined hull breaches in as many compartments as actually occurred when it scraped along the iceberg. They were much less prone to admitting the existence of what we would now call the Worst Case Scenario I suppose - evidenced by the lack of provision of lifeboats.
Actually, to get back to what we were discussing originally, it suffered that damage because it was being, quite simply, driven too fast for the conditions. The cliche that speed in itself doesn't cause accidents is true: but once something happens in front of you a few more milliseconds can make the difference between an accident and a near-miss. And, returning this thread to its original topic, you probably discard much more useful reaction time blethering on a phone than going 10mph faster.
No, all you have to do is adjust your speed to the conditions at the time, use of the phone being one of the conditions included in that. I still don't see how speaking into a piece of plastic is any different to speaking to a passenger or singing along to a tune on the car radio.
And still nobody has produced any figures to show that Mobile Phones in any way cause an increase in, or even an increased likelyhood of causing, Road Traffic Accidents.
Just as the public were willing to believe the publicity over the supposedly Unsinkable Titanic without anybody bothering to check the facts, so they are willing to believe that Mobile Phones are a significant cause of Road Traffic Accidents without one hard fact being produced.
Perhaps the Captain only had one hand on the steering wheel or was busy checking messages on the new fangled Morse Gizmo. Crews should definitely be banned from using Radios when the ship is in motion, look what happens when they do!
George Brims
19-Oct-04, 01:26
Well this member of the public is quite convinced that phone use is just one more thing to add to the list of things you shouldn't do while driving. One thing I notice all the time is that people using phones fail to turn their heads to check their blind spot when changing lanes. Here in the colonies, where we drive on the right, it is a daily occurence for me to have to brake when someone pulls to the left with their left side view obscured by the phone and the arm supporting it. (Mind you there are also plenty of idiots who don't check their blind spot without a phone.)
What I can't understand is why people can't do what I do when I need to pay extra attention on the road, such as changing lanes or negotiating a junction. I say "excuse me one moment" put the phone in my lap, and then pick it up again when I'm back to simply driving straight ahead.
My big question is not Golach's of "How did people communicate before mobiles" but "What the $%^& do those idiots find to talk about all the time?"
:eek: JAWS, Police,Ambulance and Fire crews do not drive while talking on their radios.While one is the driver, the other mans the radio etc, so their hands are always on the wheels where they should be. :Razz
George, now that's a whole different question. Heaven only knows what the talk about.
If somebody phones me, even with my headset on, I find somewhere safe to park as soon as I can. Bad drivers are bad drivers and no particular object will change that.
It's like blaming the knife which cut someones throat and not the person holding it.
Fran, all Police vehicles are certainly not double manned in England (I'm not too sure if the Scottish Police still need two Officers as a matter of course, I know they used to) and when the Ambulance has a patient on board one of the Paramedics is in the back dealing with the patient.
If the situation is serious enough then the driver will ask for the Hospital to be informed of the details so the Hospital can be prepared. I'm sure they don't pull over to do that and I doubt that the Paramedic would leave a dangerously ill patient to use the radio if that patients life was in danger.
Unless things have changed drastically over the last few years and they now use telepathy they still use the radio and drive. And if either the Police or the Ambulance Service tell you that they didn't do that before hands-free setups then I have a word for that.
Naefearjustbeer
19-Oct-04, 10:49
(I'm not too sure if the Scottish Police still need two Officers as a matter of course, I know they used to)
Thats one that can read(the speed gun) and another that can write(the ticket) :D :D
Is that because they can't chew gum and walk at the same time?
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