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Shabbychic
03-Apr-11, 16:09
I cannot believe what is going on at the moment with the welfare system. For the past couple of years there has been constant propaganda and lies, pumped out by the government (labour as well) and the media, about scrounging scum, aka the unemployed and the sick and disabled. The result has been exactly what was wanted, and the vast majority of the public have wholeheartedly joined in.

Now all their efforts have come to fruition, and although the results are shocking, very few care. Here are just a couple of examples:-

Jobcentres (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/apr/01/jobcentres-tricking-people-benefit-sanctions) "tricking" people out of benefits.

New disability test (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/feb/22/new-disability-test-is-a-complete-mess) needs reassessment.

Jobs (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/apr/03/emma-harrison-action-for-employment) for the boys.

One day, all those that approve these welfare reforms, may find their circumstances have changed and they need a wee bit help, but there won't be any. There will be no Welfare System. The system may well need some reforms, but not a complete dismantling on this scale.

orkneycadian
03-Apr-11, 16:34
For the past couple of years there has been constant propaganda and lies, pumped out by the government (labour as well) and the media, about scrounging scum, aka the unemployed and the sick and disabled.

But don't forget there are plenty (read a huge amount!) where the scroungers actually exist, and are not the subject of lies or propaganda, but are as real as you like.

Shabbychic
03-Apr-11, 16:50
But don't forget there are plenty (read a huge amount!) where the scroungers actually exist, and are not the subject of lies or propaganda, but are as real as you like.

Yes scroungers exist, and yes, propaganda (http://liberalconspiracy.org/2010/10/23/the-dwp-suggests-osborne-is-exaggerating-benefit-fraud/) is used here too. The truth is, the vast majority are genuine, and they are now having to suffer on the back of this flimsy excuse.

sweetpea
03-Apr-11, 17:14
The scroungers spoil it for ordinary folk who really do have illnesses and disabilities. Makes me mad when you see them driving round in their new mobility cars and as my friend pointed out 'you have to feel sorry for them carryying that stick around everwhere with them' aaargh
What gets me is the postal signing system as well.

david
03-Apr-11, 18:07
The scroungers spoil it for ordinary folk who really do have illnesses and disabilities. Makes me mad when you see them driving round in their new mobility cars and as my friend pointed out 'you have to feel sorry for them carryying that stick around everwhere with them' aaargh
What gets me is the postal signing system as well.


Something wrong with the postal signing system? Can you elaborate?

orkneycadian
03-Apr-11, 20:20
Something wrong with the postal signing system? Can you elaborate?

I think the postal signing on system is great! Saves me having to take time off work to attend the Job Centre every 2 weeks! ;)

Corrie 3
03-Apr-11, 20:33
I think the postal signing on system is great! Saves me having to take time off work to attend the Job Centre every 2 weeks! ;)
Haha, I know a few who are grateful for the postal system of signing on......its saves them getting out of bed!!!!

C3......:roll:;)

weezer 316
03-Apr-11, 20:57
I said on the ORG just after the Conservatives got in power that they were more like the Nazi party than ever before and that the dishonest people hating core would come through .When i see Cameron and Clegg they remind me of a film of nazi death camps with the guys in the grey uniforms standing at the railway side, pushing the OLD, SICK and MOTHERS WITH CHILDREN and other groups to the right and the chambers .The Conservatives now use the same tactics as that party did in poland and elsewhere .Firstly you pick on a certain group and get mass's to see themselves as victims and point the finger of doubt, then move on to the next group and the next before long the trains are rolling .Social Engineering is illegal but the Conservatives are hell bent on getting folk to think its the norm ..Its a course that we are told is wrong and we sent your soldiers to fight on foreign soil to stop leaders that bring pain and suffering to their people, but yet we are allowing our elected leader to start the ball rolling here ..
We are told that the OLD are to blame ,they live to long .
We are told its the SICK are to blame ,they are a burden.
We are told its the CHILDERN and MOTHERS are to Blame ,they take and give nothing back .
We are told its people on BENEFITS ,they are scroungers.
We are told that its people in Social Housing ,they have to many rooms.
We are told its all our fault ,but its the Banks and them with MONEY thats to blame .
POOR PEOPLE DONT MAKE THE DECISIONS ,THEY JUST SUFFER FROM THEM ..
Dont let the Polititions make up your mind ,make up your own

dozy thats complete and utter nonsense! if you voted labour then your to blame for the deficit in this country. They caused it by spending billions every year we didnt have. Its that simple. no banks, no sick people, no rich people, no vampires in portgower. Simples. And for the record I voted labour in 2005 so Im to blame too.

weezer 316
03-Apr-11, 21:00
Shabbychic I have to agree with you (this hurts! hurts alot!) but poeple do seem to think the benefit system is totaly riddled by false claimants when im sure it isnt. This in turn impacts on the ease of access and the amount of cash available to genuine claimants. But, I think its the exception rather than the rule tbh. It does however seem to have become the pervading thought on the subject when you ask people

NickInTheNorth
03-Apr-11, 21:09
dozy thats complete and utter nonsense! if you voted labour then your to blame for the deficit in this country. They caused it by spending billions every year we didnt have. Its that simple. no banks, no sick people, no rich people, no vampires in portgower. Simples. And for the record I voted labour in 2005 so Im to blame too.

But given that the bailout of the banks cost at least 850 billion (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/163850bn-official-cost-of-the-bank-bailout-1833830.html) how can you say "no banks" etc

ducati
03-Apr-11, 21:28
I said on the ORG just after the Conservatives got in power that they were more like the Nazi party than ever before and that the dishonest people hating core would come through .When i see Cameron and Clegg they remind me of a film of nazi death camps with the guys in the grey uniforms standing at the railway side, pushing the OLD, SICK and MOTHERS WITH CHILDREN and other groups to the right and the chambers .The Conservatives now use the same tactics as that party did in poland and elsewhere .Firstly you pick on a certain group and get mass's to see themselves as victims and point the finger of doubt, then move on to the next group and the next before long the trains are rolling .Social Engineering is illegal but the Conservatives are hell bent on getting folk to think its the norm ..Its a course that we are told is wrong and we sent your soldiers to fight on foreign soil to stop leaders that bring pain and suffering to their people, but yet we are allowing our elected leader to start the ball rolling here ..
We are told that the OLD are to blame ,they live to long .
We are told its the SICK are to blame ,they are a burden.
We are told its the CHILDERN and MOTHERS are to Blame ,they take and give nothing back .
We are told its people on BENEFITS ,they are scroungers.
We are told that its people in Social Housing ,they have to many rooms.
We are told its all our fault ,but its the Banks and them with MONEY thats to blame .
POOR PEOPLE DONT MAKE THE DECISIONS ,THEY JUST SUFFER FROM THEM ..
Dont let the Polititions make up your mind ,make up your own

What on earth goes on in your head? :confused

weezer 316
03-Apr-11, 21:33
But given that the bailout of the banks cost at least 850 billion (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/163850bn-official-cost-of-the-bank-bailout-1833830.html) how can you say "no banks" etc

Not all that was spent. I think the last figure was around 500bn at last count. However, 2007,2006,2005, 2004, 2003, 2002, 2001 not to mention the past year there were no banks to blame. We spend to much, its simple as that.

NickInTheNorth
03-Apr-11, 21:38
feel free to argue with http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/163850bn-official-cost-of-the-bank-bailout-1833830.html

squidge
03-Apr-11, 23:30
Shabbychic is absolutely right. This mirrors the culture which exuded within jobcentres during the last conservative government. They have no new ideas and no intention of helping people into work, just the intention of seeing how many people they can kick off benefits under whatever pretext there is.

Say what you like about labour but when they took over in 1997 the targets changed almost overnight. Labour's new deal had it's critics and it's supporters but at least it was about supporting people into work. The previous Tory government had set the main targets as those which measured how many people had their benefit stopped for not actively seeking work, refusing employment and not being available for work. After 1997 the priority became job placings.

In 20 years I can count the number of true scroungers that i came across on both hands. People have issues you can only guess at. The vast vast majority of those on jobseekers allowance want to work and if they don't they have reasons which need addressing but once you can deal with those issues they will get a job and do it well.


Looking at people claiming benefit and even hearing them say how great it is not to have to work is only half a story. You might not see the times they can't get out of bed because what's the point? You might not see that they opened the latest rejection letter and cried. Looking in from the outside you see only what you are allowed to see.

People on incapacity type benefits are the same. You only see half the picture. YOU may decide they are fit for work but their DOCTOR is giving them medical certificates. You cannot know their medical history ... You only know what they choose to share with you.

The people who commit fraud however are different from this. What I have said doesn't apply to them. There are people who systematically set out to defraud the system and that should be the first place the government starts but that would require money and resources, the very resources the conservatives removed from local offices last time they held the purse strings.

Hey ho... Plus ca change and all that.

starfish
03-Apr-11, 23:45
all i can say is yts that was in force when i started work the employer only keep you on why the goverment paid our wages as soon as they stopped paying we were no longer employed . the goverment now have put this under a new title but open your eyes the unemployment figures will go down and the money instead will line the bosses pockets that mine and your money.if jobs are not here today where will they come from tomorrow .all it will be is make believe jobs to increase profits in over words slave labour if they was true vacancies why was.nt the advertised before the goverment offered to pay them to employ people

John Little
04-Apr-11, 06:54
Governments have a clear choice when in office. They can go for a healthy economy which generates a strong currency and makes business competitive.

Or they can place the welfare of their citizens above fiscal considerations and generate debt.

Most governments therefore seek to find a balance, knowing that the one depends on the other.
This government tilts too much towards the first option and is prepared to let its citizens pay the price in suffering, poverty and unemployment.

Pre-dating Socialism, Liberalism, Communism or Conservatism I tend to agree with Marcus Tullius Cicero who wrote 'The health of the people is the highest law'.

This lot have forgotten that - if they ever knew it.

lasher
04-Apr-11, 09:56
In 20 years I can count the number of true scroungers that i came across on both hands. People have issues you can only guess at. The vast vast majority of those on jobseekers allowance want to work and if they don't they have reasons which need addressing but once you can deal with those issues they will get a job and do it well.

What do you live in the middle of nowhere and don't go anywhere, I can count more scroungers just by looking out my back door!! All got fairly new decent cars, never done a days work in there lives, does my head in when i see how much tax I pay for these drain on society to get for doing sod all!!!

Shabbychic
04-Apr-11, 12:58
Shabbychic I have to agree with you (this hurts! hurts alot!) but poeple do seem to think the benefit system is totaly riddled by false claimants when im sure it isnt. This in turn impacts on the ease of access and the amount of cash available to genuine claimants. But, I think its the exception rather than the rule tbh. It does however seem to have become the pervading thought on the subject when you ask people

Well weezer, I agree with you too, and it doesn't hurt me one bit to do so. That's what debate is all about. I disagree with many on here on some subjects, yet agree with them on others. As I've said before, it would be a very boring world if everyone agreed on everything.

Back to the subject, here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8423775/Half-a-million-sick-are-fit-to-work.html) is the latest lies being spouted by the government. He talks of the recent trials in Aberdeen and Burnley, and that one third are fit to work, but doesn't mention that many will have this decision overturned on appeal, or that the tests have been condemned as not fit for purpose.

orkneycadian
04-Apr-11, 13:44
And how is this deemed to be lies? There may well be 500,000 folk who could work, but decide not to bother. I know of plenty folk here in Orkney who might have some sort of "minor ailment" that might prevent them doing certain things (like being a lumberjack or a stuntman, not that there would be much call for either in Orkney!), but go on the basis that that prevents them from doing any work whatsoever.

In some parts of Orkney, you cannot get people to work, no matter how much you advertise, as they fear they will jeopordise their benefits if they took a job on!

That hurts for hard working taxpayers too!

Shabbychic
04-Apr-11, 15:13
And how is this deemed to be lies? There may well be 500,000 folk who could work, but decide not to bother. I know of plenty folk here in Orkney who might have some sort of "minor ailment" that might prevent them doing certain things (like being a lumberjack or a stuntman, not that there would be much call for either in Orkney!), but go on the basis that that prevents them from doing any work whatsoever.

In some parts of Orkney, you cannot get people to work, no matter how much you advertise, as they fear they will jeopordise their benefits if they took a job on!

That hurts for hard working taxpayers too!

If you read about what is going on out there, you will see it is a manipulation of figures and lies. You say there could well be 500,000 who could work, well why don't you look into this and see. Have a look at how reliable the test is to start with. Look also at how many get into the support group, and how hard it is to get into it. The WRAG is also an area you might find interesting. Then finally, how many have the decisions overturned on appeal?

It has for some time now, been very difficult to qualify for Incapacity Benefit, and folks with 'minor ailments' would have found it very difficult to pass. I take it you actually have medical evidence to hand regarding all these people on Orkney.

You talk about the taxpayers who are paying for all this. Did you know that you cannot get Incapacity Benefit unless you have previously worked and paid taxes, and many have paid a lot of tax for many, many years.

I have already given you a link to some figures on actual fraud in the system Here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11628643) is another.

In truth, all this is about privatising the welfare system. The tests are carried out by a company, which is costing millions of taxpayers money, as are the companies who are to find work for everyone, while cutting DWP employees. Check out this lot (http://www.democraticdeficit.com/unum_provident_welfare_reform.html).

In my view it is not the sick and disabled who are parasites, it is the companies that are getting millions of taxpayers money in the pretence of helping rid us of fraudulent claims.

rob murray
04-Apr-11, 17:02
If you read about what is going on out there, you will see it is a manipulation of figures and lies. You say there could well be 500,000 who could work, well why don't you look into this and see. Have a look at how reliable the test is to start with. Look also at how many get into the support group, and how hard it is to get into it. The WRAG is also an area you might find interesting. Then finally, how many have the decisions overturned on appeal?

It has for some time now, been very difficult to qualify for Incapacity Benefit, and folks with 'minor ailments' would have found it very difficult to pass. I take it you actually have medical evidence to hand regarding all these people on Orkney.

You talk about the taxpayers who are paying for all this. Did you know that you cannot get Incapacity Benefit unless you have previously worked and paid taxes, and many have paid a lot of tax for many, many years.

I have already given you a link to some figures on actual fraud in the system Here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11628643) is another.

In truth, all this is about privatising the welfare system. The tests are carried out by a company, which is costing millions of taxpayers money, as are the companies who are to find work for everyone, while cutting DWP employees. Check out this lot (http://www.democraticdeficit.com/unum_provident_welfare_reform.html).

In my view it is not the sick and disabled who are parasites, it is the companies that are getting millions of taxpayers money in the pretence of helping rid us of fraudulent claims.

Whats interesting is that the only difference between Labour and Condem is the use of private companies to enable people back to work, ie the underlying premise of assisting people back to work remains the same, the method to do so differs, ie traditional Conservative core roots, "public sector bad... private sector good"...this approach may very well work, the jury is out here... but, and a big but, as long as jobs are there...been to Wick Job Centre or checked the Groat recently ?? Another point, as an employer I dont want my time wasted interviewing "reluctant job seekers" pressurised into taking work...really thats a hassle isnt it ? Employers want work ready committed and motivated people, so if the private companies involved can do that then fine...lets just watch this space eh !

sweetpea
04-Apr-11, 18:38
Whats interesting is that the only difference between Labour and Condem is the use of private companies to enable people back to work, ie the underlying premise of assisting people back to work remains the same, the method to do so differs, ie traditional Conservative core roots, "public sector bad... private sector good"...this approach may very well work, the jury is out here... but, and a big but, as long as jobs are there...been to Wick Job Centre or checked the Groat recently ?? Another point, as an employer I dont want my time wasted interviewing "reluctant job seekers" pressurised into taking work...really thats a hassle isnt it ? Employers want work ready committed and motivated people, so if the private companies involved can do that then fine...lets just watch this space eh !

That's interesting. I know that there's hardly any jobs advertised, about 3/4 of all jobs here are never advertised but word of mouth, so if your looking for a job you need to get out there and ask, networking. As for private companies not sure but I reckon that hardly any folk especially young ones get actual job outcomes form some of the so called training schemes that are around.

orkneycadian
04-Apr-11, 18:49
I know that there's hardly any jobs advertised, about 3/4 of all jobs here are never advertised but word of mouth, so if your looking for a job you need to get out there and ask, networking.

Top advice. If folk sit around waiting for a job to be handed to them on a plate, they'll wait a long time....

David from Stockport
04-Apr-11, 21:11
Unfortuantly we have bred a nation with a high proportion of workshy and welfare scroungers and if you lived in a big town you would see loads , unfortuantly its not just the unemployed - in my full-time job (ive also got a hobby job to make ends meet) we have a generous sick system and this gets abused all the time ,one guy even addmitted to his team he had 2 weeks sick to decorate his house !! said he wasnt going to waste his hol time on it . We get lots go long term sick for there "holidays back home " One girl was long term sick and out partying most night /hols to Ibiza etc ,even posting it all on Facebook for her workmates to read (and they were denied hols cos had to cover for her) took 18 months to get rid of her . Can you believe it I work somewhere where staff want the sick entitlement cutting cos they are fed up of wasters !!

catran
04-Apr-11, 22:23
Well, do not need to look far to see how the fraudulant claims are or is it just me. Go to the doctor cant walk, need crutches bad back , it pays the mortgage for a four bedroom bungalow, tell me a single person. Another gets cancer therefore gets a life time disability, even when you get the all clear after five years and15 years on even though you work full time oh goodness dont tell me about them. Something wrong seriously wrong with the system.

Shabbychic
05-Apr-11, 00:10
Oh, I give up. A wee song springs to mind.....enjoy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eBT6OSr1TI)!

Aaldtimer
05-Apr-11, 03:48
Well, do not need to look far to see how the fraudulant claims are or is it just me. Go to the doctor cant walk, need crutches bad back , it pays the mortgage for a four bedroom bungalow, tell me a single person. Another gets cancer therefore gets a life time disability, even when you get the all clear after five years and15 years on even though you work full time oh goodness dont tell me about them. Something wrong seriously wrong with the system.

What absolute bollix..you've obviously never been through the system![disgust]

Yes, it is just you![disgust]

theone
05-Apr-11, 08:13
I've little idea of how easy or hard it is to claim all the benefits available, but I think everyone knows somebody who doesn't work because they have chosen not to work.

Our country has a great system in that we look after our poor. I just wonder if we've gone too far. I think benefits should be limited to providing the bare essentials. Food and shelter. It is obvious that over the years benefit has moved to allow certain luxuries above and beyond "needs". What message do we send out where somebody on benefit can achieve more than minimum wage?

Listening to MFR radio, there was a 30 second advert for Arnold Clark. The weren't advertising deals on new cars, not even used cars. They were advertising mobility cars. The fact that a major car retailer can spend money on advertising for such "welfare" schemes speaks a thousand words in my opinion.

In these days of cuts I'd far rather see the benefits system reduced than healthcare or education.

And incapacity benefit should only be available to those incapable of doing ANY job.

Liz
05-Apr-11, 13:40
Okay I wasn't going to say anything but I am fed up with people generalising re those on benefits!

I haven't been able to work for many years due to health problems and have been grateful for the benefits I receive. However, I certainly can't live a life of luxury and if anybody can on benefits then they must have another income.
I would love to have my health back and be able to work so if any one of you who think we are scroungers would like to change places with me then feel free. I wonder what you'd think of a 'life of leisure' then?!

I'm surprised some of you don't want to bring back poor houses and bung us all in there!!

I know there are some who do abuse the system but why should we all suffer because of the minority? They're the ones who will stay on benefits whilst the genuine ones end up on JSA even though they are not fit to work.

Rant over!

Liz
05-Apr-11, 13:44
Oh, I give up. A wee song springs to mind.....enjoy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eBT6OSr1TI)!

Love it!:lol:

tonkatojo
05-Apr-11, 15:14
Okay I wasn't going to say anything but I am fed up with people generalising re those on benefits!

I haven't been able to work for many years due to health problems and have been grateful for the benefits I receive. However, I certainly can't live a life of luxury and if anybody can on benefits then they must have another income.
I would love to have my health back and be able to work so if any one of you who think we are scroungers would like to change places with me then feel free. I wonder what you'd think of a 'life of leisure' then?!

I'm surprised some of you don't want to bring back poor houses and bung us all in there!!

I know there are some who do abuse the system but why should we all suffer because of the minority? They're the ones who will stay on benefits whilst the genuine ones end up on JSA even though they are not fit to work.

Rant over!

Give the condems time liz, this is only their first year and they guaranteed themselves 5 years to do as they will. So careful what you say as they will pick up on the workhouse theme and introduce it before their term is out. :(

Shabbychic
05-Apr-11, 15:46
They probably already have private workhouses in the pipeline.

ducati
05-Apr-11, 16:05
Nah, too expensive. More like salt mines :eek:

tonkatojo
05-Apr-11, 16:08
Nah, too expensive. More like salt mines :eek:

Well it certainly wouldn't be coal mines, your lot did for those previously.:roll:

ducati
05-Apr-11, 16:19
I think history tells us Arthur Scargill 'did' for the coal industry. That and the cost of production.

rob murray
05-Apr-11, 16:42
They probably already have private workhouses in the pipeline.

They already have and they are called jails !!!

Shabbychic
05-Apr-11, 16:45
They already have and they are called jails !!!

I don't know about that. I tend to think prisoners may have an easier time than the sick and disabled nowadays.

canadagirl
05-Apr-11, 16:52
Okay I wasn't going to say anything but I am fed up with people generalising re those on benefits!

I haven't been able to work for many years due to health problems and have been grateful for the benefits I receive.


I always hate to say anything negative about those on benefits as I know there are many who genuinely do need it and who do struggle, as often health issues have extra costs due to diet and mobility that aren't necessarily covered by gov't agencies. :~(
It's unfortunate that the ones in the limelight are those with the latest model superphones, large tv's, eating takeout all the time, with two cars on the go. I guess it takes up so much of their time milking the system (and therefore my bank account) that they don't have time to work! [disgust]

Kells
05-Apr-11, 16:57
I wonder how the so called scroungers are going to manage when they are living on state pension.

Shabbychic
05-Apr-11, 17:14
Can I just make a wee point here?

This thread is about changes in the welfare system, and how it targets genuine claimants. It is not about layabouts or scroungers. I think some that have posted, just see Welfare System in the title, and do the usual jumping in to shout about abuse of the system.

These are serious changes that are being made here, and the reason they are getting away with it is because so many people are too busy shouting about the abuse of the system to realise there soon won't be any system left.

canadagirl
05-Apr-11, 17:23
Can I just make a wee point here?

These are serious changes that are being made here, and the reason they are getting away with it is because so many people are too busy shouting about the abuse of the system to realise there soon won't be any system left.

I agree. I think the people who really need it are finding it very difficult to jump thru the hoops. They are already limited by physical or mental disabilities and something as simple as getting to an appointment several miles away can be a huge hurdle, let alone struggling with forms etc. I suppose it comes down to why the heck do able bodied people not have enough gumption to go to work!! [disgust]

ducati
05-Apr-11, 17:25
Can I just make a wee point here?

This thread is about changes in the welfare system, and how it targets genuine claimants. It is not about layabouts or scroungers. I think some that have posted, just see Welfare System in the title, and do the usual jumping in to shout about abuse of the system.

These are serious changes that are being made here, and the reason they are getting away with it is because so many people are too busy shouting about the abuse of the system to realise there soon won't be any system left.

Immotive language-"getting away with it" I don't think there are many who feel the system is fine as it is. Some people always resist change through lack of imagination in my opinion.

sweetpea
05-Apr-11, 17:26
Well maybe if the scroungers weren't taking up so much time form the benefits agency then the genuine cases could be dealt with a bit more effectively and there would be more money to go round for those that really do need it.

Kells
05-Apr-11, 17:33
Can I just make a wee point here?

This thread is about changes in the welfare system, and how it targets genuine claimants. It is not about layabouts or scroungers. I think some that have posted, just see Welfare System in the title, and do the usual jumping in to shout about abuse of the system.

These are serious changes that are being made here, and the reason they are getting away with it is because so many people are too busy shouting about the abuse of the system to realise there soon won't be any system left.

Pensions are a part of the welfare system and I am waiting to see how the goverment are going to justify cutting them. will it be just that they should have provided for a pension themselves. To try and justify cutting money from the ill, disabled and unemloyed by blaming layabouts and scroungers is nonsense. If this is happening then it is the system that needs to be looked at and not cutting money from those in need and at the same time smearing all disabled, sick and unemployed.

rob murray
05-Apr-11, 17:34
Can I just make a wee point here?

This thread is about changes in the welfare system, and how it targets genuine claimants. It is not about layabouts or scroungers. I think some that have posted, just see Welfare System in the title, and do the usual jumping in to shout about abuse of the system.

These are serious changes that are being made here, and the reason they are getting away with it is because so many people are too busy shouting about the abuse of the system to realise there soon won't be any system left.

Maybe just maybe the majority of posters would like the "system" totally abolished as they apparently cite many cases of abuse and people living high on the hog, nonsense of course as the high living has to be funded by other means be they criminality or working on the fly. Turn the clock back to 1910 when in the UK there was no system of benefits nor unemployment offices..either work or want, if you cant work, go to a work house, the place of last refuge and suffer the concequences. Underpinning this cruel approach is the classical economy theory prevalent up until keynes demolished it, that people are unemployed because they effectively price themselves out of employment, a theory that also underpins Neo Conservativism... . ie Unemployed people are unemployed because they refuse to work for the local going rates, hence pricing themselves out of work, if unemployment is high then wages would have to fall in line with over inflated job demands relative to a going market rate in order that the supply of labour is aligned with labour demand...the best demolition of this type of thinking and the concequences of raw capitalism can be found in the ragged trousered philanthropist ( in my humble opinion ) The system as it stands is total nonsense, lets see what changes are planned and how effective they will be.

ducati
05-Apr-11, 17:35
Where did you hear that pensions were being cut?

Sorry, Kells, I didn't quote.

Kells
05-Apr-11, 17:38
Well maybe if the scroungers weren't taking up so much time form the benefits agency then the genuine cases could be dealt with a bit more effectively and there would be more money to go round for those that really do need it.

If there are claims that are not genuine then they should be charged as they are breaking the law, the failure to do has to lie not with those who have to use the system but those who administer it.

Doreen
05-Apr-11, 17:39
Well maybe if the scroungers weren't taking up so much time form the benefits agency then the genuine cases could be dealt with a bit more effectively and there would be more money to go round for those that really do need it.
Exactly not getting at the genuine people but theres a lot of people out there forget to limp and then they remember you can spot them a mile away.they are the ones that take it from the genuine people that gets next to nothing and are housebound. yet they people are scamming it get cars and live life to great standards they should be ashamed.

Kells
05-Apr-11, 17:42
Where did you hear that pensions were being cut?

Sorry, Kells, I didn't quote.

There are constant mentions of bus passes being removed and heating allowances being stopped, rumours of course but one wonders where they started from. Lets also remember that many of the disabled/mobility allowances are made to pensioners who are the least able to fight them being removed.

Kells
05-Apr-11, 17:44
Exactly not getting at the genuine people but theres a lot of people out there forget to limp and then they remember you can spot them a mile away.they are the ones that take it from the genuine people that gets next to nothing and are housebound. yet they people are scamming it get cars and live life to great standards they should be ashamed.

If you see someone whom you know is making a fraudualant claim then report them.

rob murray
05-Apr-11, 17:45
Exactly not getting at the genuine people but theres a lot of people out there forget to limp and then they remember you can spot them a mile away.they are the ones that take it from the genuine people that gets next to nothing and are housebound. yet they people are scamming it get cars and live life to great standards they should be ashamed.

AH I get it now, the people you refer to and the majority of posters I summise, are able bodied people who have scammed for higher rate disability allowances which also attract mobility allowances, a lot different than ordinary unemployed people signing on and recieving minimum pitiful benefits. If the governments new tactics work then these type of scammers will be forced, and rightly so to register as fit for work and will recieve less benefits losing disability and mobility higher benefits..the .issue is a lot of geuinely sick people are going to be forced down the same route and that is sick !

ducati
05-Apr-11, 17:46
There are constant mentions of bus passes being removed and heating allowances being stopped, rumours of course but one wonders where they started from. Lets also remember that many of the disabled/mobility allowances are made to pensioners who are the least able to fight them being removed.

Well, not to criticise, but the rumours may well be started by people on internet forums:roll::lol:

rob murray
05-Apr-11, 17:51
Well, not to criticise, but the rumours may well be started by people on internet forums:roll::lol:

No rumours but the truth...we are all in it together !

Kells
05-Apr-11, 18:08
No rumours but the truth...we are all in it together !

I do not understand what you are saying here. ?

Kells
05-Apr-11, 18:09
Well, not to criticise, but the rumours may well be started by people on internet forums:roll::lol:

May well be, a sign of the times perhaps.

oldmarine
05-Apr-11, 18:34
Getting something for nothing. I'm not certain about Great Britain, but in the USA I get the feeling that people have learned to milk the Democratic system for all they can get. In particular the politicians. They have set up their own medical and retirement systems and are milking the system for all they can get. I believe a person many years ago (during the Roman Empire days) stated a Democracy will last for only about 200 years or until it's people discover they can get something for nothing. The USA has gone beyond that and is showing the signs of failing because too many people believe they can get something without working. Too many politicians are trying to become millionaires at the tax payers expense.

sassybreeks
05-Apr-11, 19:07
I work in the Welfare Rights field and yeah, i believe there are some people who will play the system to avoid working but not in the huge amounts the public are led to believe. I also believe that some people may even benefit from being back in the working world but may find it hard to see that due to depressive illness and lack of confidence and skills. But on looking at the ESA work capabitlity form today and the descriptors used in the decision making processes, the first thing that comes to mind is that the form is set up for people to fail the test. The form looks so easy to fill out that claimants are less likely to seek advice or help, the descriptors differ greatly from the questions being asked, and even some of the essential criteria to get into the 'support group' are not even mentioned in the form. The proposed new descriptors that are to come into force are even worse with even less chance of meeting the criteria. Our vien is that they are looking to do one medical for all benefits! If you look at the ATOS professionals guidance handbook as well, very few will be successful! We have been successful in West Dunbartonshire with approx 65-80% of appeals being successful (differs monthly), which is well above national average of 40%. The knock on effect of being taken off the benefit and fighting for jobs with the current unemployed and also the lone parents being forced back into non-existant jobs is that when your still unemployed a year later, you will also lose 10% of your housing benefit! And dont get me started on tax credit cuts!!

Liz
05-Apr-11, 19:15
Sassybreeks, as you have rightly said, the ESA work capability test is set up for people to fail . This is the reason for the test so that people will be moved off Incapacity Benefit etc and onto Jobseekers hence saving the Govt lots of money! I'd like to know where the jobs are for these people to apply for and, even if they do, who is going to employ someone who has been 'on the sick' for years!

It's all too easy for those who have good health and jobs to point the fingers at 'scroungers' but they should stop and think how they would feel if they became too ill to work and were judged in the same way.

Good for you and for colleagues for helping those who have 'failed' the tests with their appeals. However, the emotional and physical cost to many of those people who had to appeal will have been very high.

I actually now dread every single brown envelope that drops through my letterbox!!!

sassybreeks
05-Apr-11, 19:39
Yeah Liz, we were saying exact same today about the long term sick. A lot of employers will be reluctant to take them on. What were finding is that in most cases, no sooner have we sorted out appeal etc, but they are sent another questionaire and its back to square one! And they are using ESA medicals to make decisions and review DLA claims, which have a totally different eligibility criteria. Another advice agency here had a chap with serious heart condition walk out of their office saying he had had enough after being called for 4th medical and he said they wouldnt see him again. And he was right cos he went home and died that night and i can imagine the stress made it worse.

As for DWP, I had a girl who is 27wks pregnant and partner received custodial sentence last week. They cancelled their joint JSA claim last week and said she would be better waiting til she was 29wk pregnant to claim Income Support but how was she to look after herself and pay bills for those 21/2 wks? Was shocked! I am also against the rules with lone parents being forced back to work when their youngest child is 7 (to be reduced to 5), i think they should have choice whilst children at primary school. I worked from week after my daughter started school even tho i was only 10wk better off at time, but that was my choice and i have progressed greatly from being a cleaner to what i am now. They talk about family breakdowns, child crime etc yet their actions will only contribute towards it

Doreen
05-Apr-11, 19:46
If you see someone whom you know is making a fraudualant claim then report them.I do i see them most days but i just could not but my daughter said she is going to record them but i said no.

Kells
05-Apr-11, 20:00
I do i see them most days but i just could not but my daughter said she is going to record them but i said no.

Why not, you can lift the phone give the information required and no one need know that you have done so. If you saw someone steal from your neighbour you would report it right away, this is still theft and is is theft from us all.

Doreen
05-Apr-11, 20:08
Why not, you can lift the phone give the information required and no one need know that you have done so. If you saw someone steal from your neighbour you would report it right away, this is still theft and is is theft from us all.Your dead right kells well you have made me think why should we pay for their higher standards in life when were getting taxed out the face me and my hubbie not including everyone else that does work .

ducati
05-Apr-11, 20:14
May well be, a sign of the times perhaps.

:eek::eek::eek:

sassybreeks
05-Apr-11, 20:19
Yes Doreen, you can report anonomously online. Unfortunately, we have had to assist some unfortunate people who were genuine and were reported through malicious neighbours. I am all for helping genuine people and wont assist to make fraudulant claims but sometimes we have to go with what people tells us when making claims and although we may not be convinced, it is not our decision to say they are lying! You will get people in all walks of life at it somewhere with something. Look at the MPs and banks, lol

tonkatojo
05-Apr-11, 22:48
I think history tells us Arthur Scargill 'did' for the coal industry. That and the cost of production.

Not the areas I know, it was the sheer spite of your idol.

golach
05-Apr-11, 22:54
I do i see them most days but i just could not but my daughter said she is going to record them but i said no.

A quick phone call is all it takes

http://campaigns.dwp.gov.uk/campaigns/benefit-thieves/

squidge
05-Apr-11, 23:39
Lasher disputes my assertion that the vast vast majority of JSA claimants want to work. They and many others who post on threads about benefits talk of looking out their windows and seeing or knowing people are scroungers and idle layabouts who get something for nothing. Well lasher let's see, 20 years spent on the front line in jobcentres and old unemployment benefit offices in rural, suburban and inner city areas. Voluntary work helping people and families in crisis, trade union rep work dealing with cases of retirement on grounds of ill health, work as a disability officer dealing with people who have been found fit for work, a previous claimant of Employment Support Allowance which the test found fit to work whilst I was IN HOSPITAL????? I appealed and was successful. A former single parent reliant on benefits and a spell as a fraud officer. Does that help explain why I can say that there are few truly workshy people. I can say that time after time after time I have seen people who were written off as hopeless cases, find work after being given the right help. I have seen the cockiest cheekiest most unpleasant people break and admit they hate their life and are desperate to work but are completely at a loss as to how to get out of the hole they are in and so adopt a don't care attitude.

Many posters talk about KNOWING that people are getting money they are not entitled to because the person themselves has said " it's great this benefit lark, you are the fool going to work for a living". Do any of you stop and think whether they really truly mean that? You see here people talking about others getting something for nothing especially in
relation to disability benefits and motability. People entitled to these things are not getting something for nothing, they have had to be ill, sick or disabled to qualify. They may not have a limp or a visible disability but the fact that YOU can't see it does not mean it's not there.

Many of you ask how people afford sky and cars and "stuff". My parents
paid for me to go on holiday when I was a single parent. I used catalogues and the like and paid it up. The thing is that YOU don't know wherethings come from, how they are paid for or even if they are begged borrowed stolen or stuck on a terrifyingly maxed out credit card. No one is well off on jobseekers allowance or income support. They may manage but not much more. They do get housing benefit and the reason for that is so they have a roof over their heads. For
goodness sake would some of you deny them that????

The idea that there are hundreds of thousands of idle people avoiding work cos they are scroungers is a myth. People avoid work because of a million different reasons, get to the bottom of their problems and take the time and trouble to help and they can and do start work and
stick at it.

Finally, where you truly believe someone is defrauding the system. Working and signing, saying they are unable to walk and doing their roof then report them. If you don't you are as bad as they are. If you don't then stop pointing the finger and complaining.

I have seen some A grade scroungers in my time, I have also stopped the benefits of people who deserved it and probably some who didn't. I have had chairs desks and computer monitors thrown in my direction and even been spat at but I will maintain that most people, when you get to the bottom of things would prefer to be working and earning
than relying on benefits.

A woman looked into my shopping trolley and made a judgement about me on the flimsiest evidence .... Hot dogs and curly fries and many of you were amazed and outraged. That's exactly what is happening here,. You are peeping into the shopping trolley of their life and making judgements based on nothing but a few bits of 'stuff'.

rob murray
06-Apr-11, 08:45
I do not understand what you are saying here. ?

Have the government not repeatedly said that we are in a mess and to sort it out "we are alll in it together"...then accpeting this everyone takes a hit including ie the sick, elderly and the unemployed

tonkatojo
06-Apr-11, 09:48
Have the government not repeatedly said that we are in a mess and to sort it out "we are alll in it together"...then accpeting this everyone takes a hit including ie the sick, elderly and the unemployed

Well you can register me as number one that does not accept the "we are all in it together" concept, what a laugh. :eek:

Corrie 3
06-Apr-11, 10:05
When Cameron said "We are all in this together" he meant anyone earning less than 100k a year. It will not affect those people earning over that one iota!!!!

C3......

squidge
06-Apr-11, 10:09
And yet here we are cheering on the plans to cut benefits for the poorest in society whilst we roll our eyes at the loopholes that encourage tax avoidance for the super rich. We are all mad.

tonkatojo
06-Apr-11, 10:31
And yet here we are cheering on the plans to cut benefits for the poorest in society whilst we roll our eyes at the loopholes that encourage tax avoidance for the super rich. We are all mad.

Not all Squidge, but can anyone say they are surprised once the tory got power although it is with the Lib Dem "power" seekers. :(

Kells
06-Apr-11, 11:33
Have the government not repeatedly said that we are in a mess and to sort it out "we are alll in it together"...then accpeting this everyone takes a hit including ie the sick, elderly and the unemployed

I had to be sure this is what you meant, it is hard to believe that anyone can think this way. [disgust]

tonkatojo
06-Apr-11, 12:32
I had to be sure this is what you meant, it is hard to believe that anyone can think this way. [disgust]

Its jolly good for Pakistan though another 850,000,000 for education (if you believe it), am I the only one to despair. Well it's good to know where some of the sick/disabled saving will be going I suppose.

rob murray
06-Apr-11, 17:40
I had to be sure this is what you meant, it is hard to believe that anyone can think this way. [disgust]

Kells, fair minded people would find it hard to believe but plenty of people out there swallow the nonsense because they have their own ill informed axe to grind, so there is obvious support for the cuts agenda, as long as "they" are alright.. and look the other way eh !

ie We have" huge deficit caused by years of Labour mis spending" ( lets forget the damn banking crisis for a moment eh...that doesnt fit their arguement ) so savings must be made otherwise the country is down the tubes..where to make savings...public services, benefits ( get the scoungers working for benefits ) sickness / disability, pensions ( delay paying them, make the s work longer...is that not a cut ??? ) Whilst at the same time continue paying bank bonuses on the basis that if they arent paid we will all lose because the talent will work abroad, we lose revenue and taxes hence we have no choice but to pay them ) Anyone who denies the basic facts is a complete and utter idiot, and boy oh boy doesnt it help their cause when people turn against each other.

If we are so much in a hole then why are we still in Afghanistan...where did we "find the dosh" for Libya....come on

Kells
06-Apr-11, 17:55
Kells, fair minded people would find it hard to believe but plenty of people out there swallow the nonsense because they have their own ill informed axe to grind, so there is obvious support for the cuts agenda, as long as "they" are alright.. and look the other way eh !

ie We have" huge deficit caused by years of Labour mis spending" ( lets forget the damn banking crisis for a moment eh...that doesnt fit their arguement ) so savings must be made otherwise the country is down the tubes..where to make savings...public services, benefits ( get the scoungers working for benefits ) sickness / disability, pensions ( delay paying them, make the s work longer...is that not a cut ??? ) Whilst at the same time continue paying bank bonuses on the basis that if they arent paid we will all lose because the talent will work abroad, we lose revenue and taxes hence we have no choice but to pay them ) Anyone who denies the basic facts is a complete and utter idiot, and boy oh boy doesnt it help their cause when people turn against each other.

If we are so much in a hole then why are we still in Afghanistan...where did we "find the dosh" for Libya....come on

I do not believe that any of the proposed cuts are necessary, never have and never will. If there is money for war then then is money to provide for the needs of people and the needs of people should have priority.

dozy
06-Apr-11, 19:43
Kells, fair minded people would find it hard to believe but plenty of people out there swallow the nonsense because they have their own ill informed axe to grind, so there is obvious support for the cuts agenda, as long as "they" are alright.. and look the other way eh !

ie We have" huge deficit caused by years of Labour mis spending" ( lets forget the damn banking crisis for a moment eh...that doesnt fit their arguement ) so savings must be made otherwise the country is down the tubes..where to make savings...public services, benefits ( get the scoungers working for benefits ) sickness / disability, pensions ( delay paying them, make the s work longer...is that not a cut ??? ) Whilst at the same time continue paying bank bonuses on the basis that if they arent paid we will all lose because the talent will work abroad, we lose revenue and taxes hence we have no choice but to pay them ) Anyone who denies the basic facts is a complete and utter idiot, and boy oh boy doesnt it help their cause when people turn against each other.

If we are so much in a hole then why are we still in Afghanistan...where did we "find the dosh" for Libya....come on


We all rush to blame Labour for the mess but your wrong .The whole thing started with THATCHER who de-regulated the Banks, that allowed the banks to buy up Insurance Companies ( and raid their Pension schemes) and Building Societies (open up long term profits from mortgages ).It was the banks that pushed up house prices as it was in their long term interests to do so .The banks were then open to play the Financial Field with huge reserves off YOUR MONEY .Not only could they use the funds they had to hand but they then could now use projected profit form Pensions and Mortgages as well ."THATS HOW WE ARE IN THE SOUP ".Labour where stupid enough to believe the shovel full of lies that the Bankers were laying on (very thick) .By doing this they could keep every one at arms length and by giving out a few sweeteners make out it was all honky-dory and let the good times roll ..Bankers have exploited women from the start .They even used Womens new found financial independance (be it in or outside a relationship) to hike the cost of homes to obsorb that extra cash at the start and the higher house prices gave greater long term profits from BIG mortgages..Its had nothing to do with the POOR,SICK OR FAMILIES,they are all being exploited by a Government that will protect the banks at all costs being that Labour or Conservative (thats were they all go after they get the push) .The Conservatives want the public to fight amongst themselves ,that way they are left to plot the next Big Con ,Look beyond what the propoganda machine is saying .. its all spin or slight of hand.
If the Conservative Government get away with this ,it will be the thin edge of the wedge that will see riots in the streets.Yes! by all means bring the benefit cheats to book ,but lets start with the RICH that have not paid a penny of the 65 billion in tax due for last year and still owe 297 billion for the 5 years before that . The non-tax paying RICH have since 1980 still owe 4.3 trillion to this country ,lets get the money from those who took it and work our way down the scale..

theone
06-Apr-11, 20:05
I do not believe that any of the proposed cuts are necessary, never have and never will. If there is money for war then then is money to provide for the needs of people and the needs of people should have priority.

You do not believe they're necessary?

Get your head out of the sand.

Here it is in simple terms:

We are currently spending more than we take in. It's called living outwith our means.

We need to take more money in through taxation, spend less, or a mixture of both.

Cuts are ABSOLUTELY necessary and the longer the electorate deny it, or moan about it, the longer the problems will continue.

david
06-Apr-11, 21:50
You do not believe they're necessary?

Get your head out of the sand.

Here it is in simple terms:

We are currently spending more than we take in. It's called living outwith our means.

We need to take more money in through taxation, spend less, or a mixture of both.

Cuts are ABSOLUTELY necessary and the longer the electorate deny it, or moan about it, the longer the problems will continue.

Agree, but why can we afford to wage war in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya and also defend the Falklands which is 8000 miles away and why can we afford to pay immigrants full benefits after they have been in this country for 3 months? We can't be that bad off then? And when you say "we", I take it your meaning the present government.

rob murray
06-Apr-11, 22:06
You do not believe they're necessary?

Get your head out of the sand.

Here it is in simple terms:

We are currently spending more than we take in. It's called living outwith our means.

We need to take more money in through taxation, spend less, or a mixture of both.

Cuts are ABSOLUTELY necessary and the longer the electorate deny it, or moan about it, the longer the problems will continue.

What problems are you on about ? If we take more money in taxation and spend less then you create a full scale long term recession ? Oh, ever heard of deficit financing a common remedy...and who are "we" :We are currently spending more than we take in. It's called living outwith our means..... does this apply to you as it doesnt apply to me..so why should I personally be roped in nothing to do with me. My head is not in the sand and my eyes are wide open

david
06-Apr-11, 22:13
[QUOTE=rob murray;838294]What problems are you on about ? If we take more money in taxation and spend less then you create a full scale long term recession ? Oh, ever heard of deficit financing a common remedy...and who are "we" :We are currently spending more than we take in. It's called living outwith our means..... does this apply to you as it doesnt apply to me..so why should I personally be roped in nothing to do with me. My head is not in the sand and my eyes are wide open[

You've a good point Rob.

golach
06-Apr-11, 22:19
why can we afford to pay immigrants full benefits after they have been in this country for 3 months? We can't be that bad off then? And when you say "we", I take it your meaning the present government.
What immigrants do you mean? Thats a very sweeping word.

sassybreeks
06-Apr-11, 22:21
Lasher disputes my assertion that the vast vast majority of JSA claimants want to work. They and many others who post on threads about benefits talk of looking out their windows and seeing or knowing people are scroungers and idle layabouts who get something for nothing. Well lasher let's see, 20 years spent on the front line in jobcentres and old unemployment benefit offices in rural, suburban and inner city areas. Voluntary work helping people and families in crisis, trade union rep work dealing with cases of retirement on grounds of ill health, work as a disability officer dealing with people who have been found fit for work, a previous claimant of Employment Support Allowance which the test found fit to work whilst I was IN HOSPITAL????? I appealed and was successful. A former single parent reliant on benefits and a spell as a fraud officer. Does that help explain why I can say that there are few truly workshy people. I can say that time after time after time I have seen people who were written off as hopeless cases, find work after being given the right help. I have seen the cockiest cheekiest most unpleasant people break and admit they hate their life and are desperate to work but are completely at a loss as to how to get out of the hole they are in and so adopt a don't care attitude.

Many posters talk about KNOWING that people are getting money they are not entitled to because the person themselves has said " it's great this benefit lark, you are the fool going to work for a living". Do any of you stop and think whether they really truly mean that? You see here people talking about others getting something for nothing especially in
relation to disability benefits and motability. People entitled to these things are not getting something for nothing, they have had to be ill, sick or disabled to qualify. They may not have a limp or a visible disability but the fact that YOU can't see it does not mean it's not there.

Many of you ask how people afford sky and cars and "stuff". My parents
paid for me to go on holiday when I was a single parent. I used catalogues and the like and paid it up. The thing is that YOU don't know wherethings come from, how they are paid for or even if they are begged borrowed stolen or stuck on a terrifyingly maxed out credit card. No one is well off on jobseekers allowance or income support. They may manage but not much more. They do get housing benefit and the reason for that is so they have a roof over their heads. For
goodness sake would some of you deny them that????

The idea that there are hundreds of thousands of idle people avoiding work cos they are scroungers is a myth. People avoid work because of a million different reasons, get to the bottom of their problems and take the time and trouble to help and they can and do start work and
stick at it.

Finally, where you truly believe someone is defrauding the system. Working and signing, saying they are unable to walk and doing their roof then report them. If you don't you are as bad as they are. If you don't then stop pointing the finger and complaining.

I have seen some A grade scroungers in my time, I have also stopped the benefits of people who deserved it and probably some who didn't. I have had chairs desks and computer monitors thrown in my direction and even been spat at but I will maintain that most people, when you get to the bottom of things would prefer to be working and earning
than relying on benefits.

A woman looked into my shopping trolley and made a judgement about me on the flimsiest evidence .... Hot dogs and curly fries and many of you were amazed and outraged. That's exactly what is happening here,. You are peeping into the shopping trolley of their life and making judgements based on nothing but a few bits of 'stuff'.

Well said! I have been a benefit recipient at one point and at no point saw it as permanent. As you say, you only survive on benefits, you're not living! Most of what i had was bought on hire purchase or catalogues. I was a true lone parent, ie had no partner living with me on the quiet. I had no job on the side, but having lived on benefits i can understand why some choose to work on the fly. But overall in the people i see, they are genuine and a lot fall foul of the benefit system through ignorance of the rules and eligibility!

david
06-Apr-11, 22:27
What immigrants do you mean? Thats a very sweeping word.

What part of "immigrants" don't you understand and I will try to help.

golach
06-Apr-11, 22:31
What part of "immigrants" don't you understand and I will try to help.

I fully understand what the word means, I took enough of them to Australia in the 60's, just wondering if you can identify which country's the ones you say are getting all this alleged monies are from.

david
06-Apr-11, 22:37
I fully understand what the word means, I took enough of them to Australia in the 60's, just wondering if you can identify which country's the ones you say are getting all this alleged monies are from.

Well there is Poland, Lithuiania, Bulgaria for starters. From this month they can claim full benefits after being here for 3 months.

golach
06-Apr-11, 22:42
Well there is Poland, Lithuania, Bulgaria for starters. From this month they can claim full benefits after being here for 3 months.
Tough, thems the EU rules, you can emigrate to Poland, Lithuania and Bulgaria too and reap the benefits if you want, nothing this government can do about it, I voted against joining the EU, did you?

david
06-Apr-11, 22:50
Tough, thems the EU rules, you can emigrate to Poland, Lithuania and Bulgaria too and reap the benefits if you want, nothing this goverment can do about it, I voted against joining the EU, did you?

Yes, voted against joining the EU. About time we got out of it. We will have generations of them to look after now.

david
06-Apr-11, 22:56
Well there is Poland, Lithuiania, Bulgaria for starters. From this month they can claim full benefits after being here for 3 months.

And there's your illegals as well. Guess what country exports the largest amount of illegals into Britain-Afghanistan! And they want us out!

Kells
06-Apr-11, 23:01
You do not believe they're necessary?

Get your head out of the sand.

Here it is in simple terms:

We are currently spending more than we take in. It's called living outwith our means.

We need to take more money in through taxation, spend less, or a mixture of both.

Cuts are ABSOLUTELY necessary and the longer the electorate deny it, or moan about it, the longer the problems will continue.

So I have my head in the sand and require you to make things simple for me to understand. That would be insulting if it were not so funny.
I will say again as you do not appear to understand my simple statement, I do not agree with the proposed cuts, nor do I agree with the priorities of this goverment. They are Slaughtering the Welfare System and wait a minute is it not the goverment who answer to the electorate rather than having the electorate do as they are told and stop moaning.

golach
06-Apr-11, 23:02
And there's your illegals as well. Guess what country exports the largest amount of illegals into Britain-Afghanistan! And they want us out!
But I dont think illegals can claim benefits.

david
06-Apr-11, 23:11
But I dont think illegals can claim benefits.

Yes that's correct but how long before they catch up with some dum Brit whose willing to marry them for a few quid and then they get citizenship and also a passport to our benefit system. We wouldnt have eastern immigrants in this country if things were so good in their own country. We should be sorting this out before labelling our own as scroungers. Look at Bradford, Luton etc-Hardly British anymore.

Kells
06-Apr-11, 23:26
Does the change in precription charges today apply only to Scottish people?

theone
07-Apr-11, 05:47
Agree, but why can we afford to wage war in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya and also defend the Falklands which is 8000 miles away and why can we afford to pay immigrants full benefits after they have been in this country for 3 months?

I don't agree with all the ways money is spent either, but that's up to those who we elect.


We can't be that bad off then? And when you say "we", I take it your meaning the present government.


What problems are you on about ? ...and who are "we" :We are currently spending more than we take in. It's called living outwith our means..... does this apply to you as it doesnt apply to me..so why should I personally be roped in nothing to do with me.

By WE I mean the British nation. It applies to us all.

I consider being in debt a problem. I consider 130 million a DAY in interest just to service that debt a problem.

Rob, apart from a mortgage I owe nobody a penny, I live within my means also. But we've all become used to living in a system where, to win the election, governments have to make popular promises they can't afford.


So I have my head in the sand and require you to make things simple for me to understand. That would be insulting if it were not so funny.


Firstly Kells, no insult intended.



I will say again as you do not appear to understand my simple statement, I do not agree with the proposed cuts, nor do I agree with the priorities of this goverment.

But that's NOT what you said, what you said was:


I do not believe that any of the proposed cuts are necessary, never have and never will.

I don't AGREE with all the cuts either, but to say none of them are necessary is just nonsense! We cannot continue to get into more debt. Your "never will believe" comment was the reason for my "head in the sand" one.

canadagirl
07-Apr-11, 06:38
Looks like everybody agrees that cuts are necessary, both to get rid of people that are using and abusing the system, and at the same time to cut gov't spending. Personally I don't know what the answer is, tougher rules just makes it harder for the marginalised people who really do need it. I wonder if gov't actually increased the staff, in order to weed out the abusers, would that end up as a cost saving? I don't know what the situation is in Scotland but here in Canada they are so shortstaffed that there simply aren't the resources to do home checks (could be that's against the privacy act now too). Everything has become as automated as possible due to cutbacks but maybe that's the source of the problem? Here, there used to be a welfare office in each small town and people got 'caught' quite regularly, but now a lot of applications are done over the phone/internet from the nearest large town, and as noted by other posters, people are reluctant to report people with multiple claims or living together without reporting. It seems to me that going back to home visits to check out living arrangements would weed out the abusers as well as be helpful for the truly needy. I hate to see our hard earned money pay for goodies for lazy bums when it could go to people who need more help than they would ever ask for.

tonkatojo
07-Apr-11, 09:02
So I have my head in the sand and require you to make things simple for me to understand. That would be insulting if it were not so funny.
I will say again as you do not appear to understand my simple statement, I do not agree with the proposed cuts, nor do I agree with the priorities of this goverment. They are Slaughtering the Welfare System and wait a minute is it not the goverment who answer to the electorate rather than having the electorate do as they are told and stop moaning.

You'r right in your statement B: except that they the con dems changed the system to guarantee themselves 5 years to pillage the country with out a mandate except deceit and lies, only under extraordinary circumstances can they be got out early. Hence we have a "con dem nation" for half a decade.
PS: I have not worked out those extraordinary circumstances.

rob murray
07-Apr-11, 09:11
Rob, apart from a mortgage I owe nobody a penny, I live within my means also. But we've all become used to living in a system where, to win the election, governments have to make popular promises they can't afford.

Yes I totally agree with the latter part of your posting, this morning a university chancellor was on the radio stating that the free funding election pledge will have to be broken as the sums do not add up another popular pledge to be renaged. We have seen many examples of this but where I sit I do not wish the sick elderly and young to pay the price..so like every nation we have to earn more then we can properly fund social pledges but leave the latter out of it. Maybe Im turning into a grumpy old man as I see mediocrity almost everywhere : An over managed ( note not over staffed with medical professionals ) NHS, an over managed eduction system, duplication of representation MP's MSP's Local Councillors, an over managed Local Authority system an ineffecient benefits system all sucking up money funding largely non jobs..back to the peoples republic of Stroma lol lol lol

theone
07-Apr-11, 09:20
.

Yes I totally agree with the latter part of your posting, this morning a university chancellor was on the radio stating that the free funding election pledge will have to be broken as the sums do not add up another popular pledge to be renaged.

And therin lies a major failing of our democratic system.

I've, said it before, and I'll bore you all by repeating myself. A law should be passed where NO government can set budgets outwith their income, except under extreme circumstances, major wars, natural disasters etc. Maybe then whoever is in power can do what is good for the country as opposed to what is popular in the short term to win elections, but ultimately harmfull in the long term.

pmcd
07-Apr-11, 09:35
Agreed, the one, governments MUST learn the basics of housekeeping-style budgets, and offer greater transparency. Sadly, while we have 5 year terms, any government will go for tactics rather than strategy. Equally sadly, MPs - on recent showing - have proved themselves venal moral abscondees not fit to lick our boots, let alone run our lives. Really good to see a few of these voracious vermin get a taste of the slammer. I hope they have trouble looking for the soap in the shower...........