View Full Version : pitbulls
f1valaters2010
31-Mar-11, 22:21
Pitbulls are not illegal in scotland as long as wen they in
public they r muzzled and the law will only come into affect if the dog attacks or shows avressive behavior.
Just for the record ae bot the puppy I never bred and I kin honestly say it was eorth every penny ae payed she is a fantastic dog and is soft as with my 8 MONTH OLD SON. PEOPLE SHOULD STOP PUTTING STAFFIES N PIT BULL DOWN AV HAD SEVERAL N NOT ONE WAS AGRESSIVE
dragonfly
01-Apr-11, 08:42
maybe not illegal to own (and that applies to England and Wales too, not solely Scotland) but it is illegal to breed from them and sell which I think from your previous post you have done and tried to do?
Dangerous Dog Act 1991 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1991/65/section/1?view=extent)
I'm curious to know why you would want to breed a dog that is on the list of dangerous dogs, its not exactly your cute chunky lab puppy is it?
Crackeday
01-Apr-11, 10:26
Personally I think they are cute! (and sometimes similar to a lab)But if they are illegal to breed from 1991 then surely the breed technically should be almost non existent now?
Probably another one of those laws that's a very grey area.
It is my understanding that if a pitty is suspected then they DNA and if alls well a certificate is given to prove that it's not a pittie?
But then again even that can go wrong look at poor lennox!
From a purely personal point of view, I don't like the pitbull dog, I think them rather ugly.
In saying that I know quite a few people who have had them and they are the most loving and loyal little dogs anyone could wish for,
even with young children these dogs were gentle and tolerant.
My own opinion would be this, it is the training and the discipline dished out by the owners that determine the dog so to speak,
and as we are all aware, there were the louts who had these dogs trained to fight other dogs, trained to fight.
Just like dogs are trained for any other purpose, the fight, the attacked was learned through training.
Does anyone agree with me?
The problem is that once breeding of pit bulls was made illegal, then the only people interested in them were exactly those that were breeding them for agressive traits. So the whole thing was driven underground and the illegal breeders are selecting exactly for agresiveness and power.
I do think that you will find that it is not only when your dog attacks or shows agressive behaviour that you have to keep it under control, f1valaters. Infact once he/she has attacked/shown agressive behaviour it is far to late to prove that you have control and by that time the decision will be whether your dog should be put down or not.
I really hate taking about dangerous breeds of dog. Any breed of dog has the potencial to attack. Any breed is thus potencially dangerous. The difference between them is the their ability to do damage. The way I look at it, is that you can compare dogs to guns. They are all potencially dangerous, but a general rule is that an automatic rifle does more damage than an air pressure rifle. However, in safe hands an automatic rifle does no damage and in the wrong hands you can kill someone with an airgun. A dog is safe only in the hands of owners who know and understand canines. If as a dog owner you are clueless to reading your dogs' body language and do not understand their psycology, then you are the dangerous owner of dog whose welfare is suffering.
The Music Monster
01-Apr-11, 11:21
Does anyone agree with me?
Me!!! I think they look a bit like pigs, and since pigs are much more docile (on the whole!) than dogs, I think I'd rather have one of them!!!
MY OPINION ONLY, BUT...
I wouldn't trust them, irrespective of what any owners say, simply because dog owners have in the past told me how friendly and gentle their dogs are while I've seen them on some occasions trying to bite people - the dog that is, not the owner!!! I would certainly never put children near them, as apparently they have a tendency to go for anything that crawls. I'm sure they are very loyal - that is what dogs are best at - but I, personally, can not see the appeal of these dog.
Well I too dont like em, I have two pedigree staffies and they are absolutley wonderful, I adore them and they are very loyal and loving and wouldnt swap em for the world, but Pit bulls Nope sorry and now they have been bred for the aggresive traits I honestly wouldnt touch em and as for people who cross them with other breeds I honestly think they should be stopped from having any animals , it is just totally irresponsible! but that is just my and I know it wont suit everyone.
[QUOTE=The Music Monster;836355]Me!!! I think they look a bit like pigs, and since pigs are much more docile (on the whole!) than dogs, I think I'd rather have one of them!!!
I am smiling, quietly of course :)
Pigs can be very agressive, will bite for little or no reason at all and will fight, if necessary to the death to defend their territory.
(I know a little about pigs).
We breed them, and for the most part they are gentle docile creatures, but I have been bitten and there is no way on this God's earth that I personally would approach them after dark.
I take it you are talking about the animal type! lol but personally I wouldnt approach any kind after dark especially in Caithness! lol
I take it you are talking about the animal type! lol but personally I wouldnt approach any kind after dark especially in Caithness! lol
LOL, neither would I!! :)
Me!!! I think they look a bit like pigs, and since pigs are much more docile (on the whole!) than dogs, I think I'd rather have one of them!!!
I know someone in Dingwall that will definately contest the assertion that pigs are docile. He still has a limp around 3 years after being attacked by a pig. I believe he said he spent months in hospital and a year off work. And this was a livestock person with decades of experience.
From a purely personal point of view, I don't like the pitbull dog, I think them rather ugly.
In saying that I know quite a few people who have had them and they are the most loving and loyal little dogs anyone could wish for,
even with young children these dogs were gentle and tolerant.
My own opinion would be this, it is the training and the discipline dished out by the owners that determine the dog so to speak,
and as we are all aware, there were the louts who had these dogs trained to fight other dogs, trained to fight.
Just like dogs are trained for any other purpose, the fight, the attacked was learned through training.
Does anyone agree with me?
Yes i completly agree with you.
I do not have any dogs as personally i'm afraid of them. I do hope one day to get over this fear and enjoy having a dog around.
But having grown up with dogs i can honestly say that it is down to how they are trained. An untrained and undiciplined dog no matter what breed has the potential to be dangerous. As an example my dad trained a collie so well that my mum could leave my older brother in the pram and no one would get near him as the dog protected and watched him. The dog was so well trianed that after my brother cruely kept whacking him with a plastic golfstick, the dog to stop him grabbed him by the forearm and held his arm not biting him. He was trained to not bite and never did.
All dog breeds can be dangerous if the dog is not properly trained. To say that a dog is dangerous based on its breed is wrong and untrue.
How you breed the dog affects how they will be with other people. When the dog is trained to fight then fight it will and it will attack people. When the dog is trained to not bite, to not run away, to do as its told, then the results will be seen as that and the dog will not be a dangerous one.
We as the owners affect how the dog will be, not the dog.
I know someone in Dingwall that will definately contest the assertion that pigs are docile. He still has a limp around 3 years after being attacked by a pig. I believe he said he spent months in hospital and a year off work. And this was a livestock person with decades of experience.
Commiserations, I know how he must have felt.
When I was bitten, the teeth went through four thick jumpers and an anorak and still broke my skin, the bruise that ensued also lasted for months as did the ache that went with it,
Has anyone noticed a lot of the people defending pitbulls and staffies have little grasp on grammar and seem to type in text talk?
A genuine, well bred, staffie wouldn't appeal to most as they look so far removed from what you see on the streets. The winner of the class in crufts is the best example. They are small, dainty little dogs without the 'wide mouth frog' look that you normally associate with staffies.
The 2011 class winner
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.stamtavler.com/dogarchive/pics/thumbs/2569/th_4d7e0f4e49f55.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.stamtavler.com/dogarchive/details.php%3Fid%3D127441%26gens%3D5&usg=__Er1uwE7lOZ-SE5tlh61YE2Z2cJg=&h=151&w=100&sz=5&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=19gJtowSMZli5M:&tbnh=120&tbnw=80&ei=RA6XTb6iOsjk4gbjy4SZDA&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsbt%2Bwinner%2Bcrufts%2B2011%26um%3D1 %26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den%26biw%3D14 45%26bih%3D669%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=985&vpy=262&dur=2999&hovh=120&hovw=80&tx=89&ty=61&oei=RA6XTb6iOsjk4gbjy4SZDA&page=1&ndsp=35&ved=1t:429,r:15,s:0
I know someone in Dingwall that will definately contest the assertion that pigs are docile. He still has a limp around 3 years after being attacked by a pig. I believe he said he spent months in hospital and a year off work. And this was a livestock person with decades of experience.
I can attest that pigs can be vicious little so and so's. I have a gorgeous pig (thanks commore :) ) that loves to be petted and is tame as a tame thing. When she has had enough though she bites you knees!!! And it hurts!
I can attest that pigs can be vicious little so and so's. I have a gorgeous pig (thanks commore :) ) that loves to be petted and is tame as a tame thing. When she has had enough though she bites you knees!!! And it hurts!
It was a knee bite that landed the person I know in the hospital for so long. I think one tooth penetrated the knee joint. I know that it took several people to get the pig to let go.
If anyone has the time and patience, read Temple Granadin's book: "Animals make us human". She is a wonderful animal behaviourist. In it she explained how our dogs remain juvenile in their bahaviours and looks, so the more mature social responses that develop in canines closer to wolves, canine/wolf crosses and wolves themselves do not fully develop in our dogs. When selecting for agressiveness (and unpredictability) we are futher removing our dogs from "natural behaviour" and social maturity. It is one of the best books I have ever read and I am on the hunt for her other books. It goes a long way to explain how we are getting unpredicatable labradors and spaniels. What was done to pitbulls is being perpetrated on other breeds that will be added one by one to the "dangerous breed" list when the danger lies with irresponsible people. Many of which, I have to agree with you Leanne, "txt spk" and have a very basic education, sense of civic duty, morality and no care for their animals.
hey Leanne that looks justthe same type as my staffie Dellah and her girl Renesmee, not at all like half the types you see around the town!
scottyjock
02-Apr-11, 16:29
It was a knee bite that landed the person I know in the hospital for so long. I think one tooth penetrated the knee joint. I know that it took several people to get the pig to let go.
If anyone has the time and patience, read Temple Granadin's book: "Animals make us human". She is a wonderful animal behaviourist. In it she explained how our dogs remain juvenile in their bahaviours and looks, so the more mature social responses that develop in canines closer to wolves, canine/wolf crosses and wolves themselves do not fully develop in our dogs. When selecting for agressiveness (and unpredictability) we are futher removing our dogs from "natural behaviour" and social maturity. It is one of the best books I have ever read and I am on the hunt for her other books. It goes a long way to explain how we are getting unpredicatable labradors and spaniels. What was done to pitbulls is being perpetrated on other breeds that will be added one by one to the "dangerous breed" list when the danger lies with irresponsible people. Many of which, I have to agree with you Leanne, "txt spk" and have a very basic education, sense of civic duty, morality and no care for their animals.
Temple Grandin is a fine example of truly understanding animal needs and behaviour. Her thoughts and trials about animals in slaughter houses can be easily and cheaply put into practice. One wonders why they aren't, maybe because of her autism?
scottyjock
02-Apr-11, 16:42
You do not have to train APBT to be aggressive towards other dogs, you have to train them NOT to be, that is the difference. Aggression towards adults, aggression towards children and aggression towards other dogs and animals are all entirely seperate issues.
Aggression towards other dogs IS, unfortunately, inherent in alot of the bull breeds, but aggression towards people is not.
In the same way MOST collies will naturally herd and chase things, even if they have never worked, MOST APBT like to chase and fight with other dogs, whether they have been trained to or not.
Some Bull breeds do not follow the strict rules of dog behaviour, ie how dogs govern themselves. The bull breeds can be too forcefull in their approach to other dogs, hence getting themselves into trouble, the other dog doesn't like the head on disrespectful approach and could try to let the bull breed know, this then causes bad feeling because the Bull breed doesn't understand what it has done wrong. All too often i see Staffy/Bull breed owners having to cross the road or change direction if they see another dog approaching because they know that their dog is not trustworthy with other dogs.
Of course, this is a sweeping generalisation and i do understand that there are Bull Breed owners that have worked very hard in getting their dog to a good standard, but staffs and some other bull breeds are not novice dogs to own.
Scottyjock - I, as a Staffy owner am an exception to your comment about Staffy owners having to cross the road when they meet other dogs. For example, I took my 10 month old staffy for a walk and coming towards me was a lady in her late 50's and she had a Shitzu with her. As we were almost head to head her little dog was snarling, barking and baring its teeth at my dog. My Staffy had initially been wagging her tail on approach but after being snarled at she immediately lowered herself to the ground and trembled until the lady 'dragged' her aggressive little dog away. I had a gratifying snigger to myself as I bet 9 out of 10 people would have pre-judged my dog and assumed it would be the aggressive one.
Leanne - I may also be an exception to your comment too as obviously once you read my comments you will hopefully see that I use fairly adequate grammar and spelling. I do understand where you are coming from though and realise you are not tarring us all with the same brush (at least I hope not...lol)
scottyjock
03-Apr-11, 08:55
Scottyjock - I, as a Staffy owner am an exception to your comment about Staffy owners having to cross the road when they meet other dogs. For example, I took my 10 month old staffy for a walk and coming towards me was a lady in her late 50's and she had a Shitzu with her. As we were almost head to head her little dog was snarling, barking and baring its teeth at my dog. My Staffy had initially been wagging her tail on approach but after being snarled at she immediately lowered herself to the ground and trembled until the lady 'dragged' her aggressive little dog away. I had a gratifying snigger to myself as I bet 9 out of 10 people would have pre-judged my dog and assumed it would be the aggressive one.
Leanne - I may also be an exception to your comment too as obviously once you read my comments you will hopefully see that I use fairly adequate grammar and spelling. I do understand where you are coming from though and realise you are not tarring us all with the same brush (at least I hope not...lol)
Good for you for being the exception to the rule and having the guts to admit that Staffs can do that.;)
Also if you can honestly say hand on heart, that your dog wasn't dragging you on the lead towards that other dog, then you are indeed a great owner, with a pretty cool dog.
Temple Grandin is a fine example of truly understanding animal needs and behaviour. Her thoughts and trials about animals in slaughter houses can be easily and cheaply put into practice. One wonders why they aren't, maybe because of her autism?
Established slaughterhouses most often do not have the space needed to install a good run and often the slaughterhouse owners are short sighted: If the lairage as it stands has worked for years/decades why "waste" money there, when the chiller needs a new floor and is "more important". New build slaughterhouses are few and far between, from what I know, too many of them are only concerned with what happens from stunning onwards. Even in the UK which likes to hold itself as "The Standard" for the protection of animal welfare. I don't think that anyone who works with animals disputes Grandins expertise as an animal behaviourist unless they have some other personal agenda.
scottyjock
03-Apr-11, 09:23
Established slaughterhouses most often do not have the space needed to install a good run and often the slaughterhouse owners are short sighted: If the lairage as it stands has worked for years/decades why "waste" money there, when the chiller needs a new floor and is "more important". New build slaughterhouses are few and far between, from what I know, too many of them are only concerned with what happens from stunning onwards. Even in the UK which likes to hold itself as "The Standard" for the protection of animal welfare. I don't think that anyone who works with animals disputes Grandins expertise as an animal behaviourist unless they have some other personal agenda.
Indeed, money over welfare is an issue. However if slaughter houses were to use Argon that would cut the cost and is also much more humane and less time consuming than captive bolt.
Jenni, I too take my lovely girls out on leads wherever I go where there may be people or other dogs, my dogs too just want to play and both are extremely submissive to other dogs. I do however prefer my dogs to walk free as they walk to heel through proper training , however we do not do this where there are other dogs as our dogs have both been attacked before by other dogs that definately were not staffies. I am often approached by people when we are out too, whom also comment on how lovely our staffies are, they are true to the breed type and on their behaviour.
Nicnak, due to that bad press that staffys get I searched the internet and got all the facts before buying my staffy. I also took her to dog training classes to socialise her with other dogs and like your two staffys she is only ever interested in playing with other dogs - never showing signs of aggression. I will never let her off the lead in public as I will not subject her to negativity from others. I know my dog and I know how good natured she is but I do not feel the need to prove this to others. They can keep their misconstrued ideas to themselves. Like you, I adore my staffy and will give her the best life I possibly can.
Scottyjock - as you can see from first paragraph, I took my staffy to training classes and she is completely socialised with people and dogs. Apart from pulling on the lead due to her body strength I have never had any problems with her. This pulling was nothing to do with other dogs as she did this when we were on our own in the middle of nowhere. I have since invested in a body harness and this has cured her pulling. Perhaps I am one of a minority but the same message keeps coming across on this forum - nearly all of us staffy owners have wonderful friendly obedient pets. In my opinion the aggressiveness in any dog is not bred into them it is taught to them as puppys, whether deliberately or whether by over enthusiastic teasing which may have backfired. I stand by my opinion that dogs are a blank canvas when born and it is how we, as owners, treat them that determines their nature. Thanks for your comments though on me being a good dog owner, much appreciated.
scottyjock
03-Apr-11, 19:11
Nicnak, due to that bad press that staffys get I searched the internet and got all the facts before buying my staffy. I also took her to dog training classes to socialise her with other dogs and like your two staffys she is only ever interested in playing with other dogs - never showing signs of aggression. I will never let her off the lead in public as I will not subject her to negativity from others. I know my dog and I know how good natured she is but I do not feel the need to prove this to others. They can keep their misconstrued ideas to themselves. Like you, I adore my staffy and will give her the best life I possibly can.
Scottyjock - as you can see from first paragraph, I took my staffy to training classes and she is completely socialised with people and dogs. Apart from pulling on the lead due to her body strength I have never had any problems with her. This pulling was nothing to do with other dogs as she did this when we were on our own in the middle of nowhere. I have since invested in a body harness and this has cured her pulling. Perhaps I am one of a minority but the same message keeps coming across on this forum - nearly all of us staffy owners have wonderful friendly obedient pets. In my opinion the aggressiveness in any dog is not bred into them it is taught to them as puppys, whether deliberately or whether by over enthusiastic teasing which may have backfired. I stand by my opinion that dogs are a blank canvas when born and it is how we, as owners, treat them that determines their nature. Thanks for your comments though on me being a good dog owner, much appreciated.
Well done you for putting the time into your dog, and of course to all the others on here too, just one thing i would like to know though is, if a puppy is purely a blank canvas, how would you explain Greyhounds chasing small animals when they have never been taught to, collies herding when they haven't been trained to, Dachshunds digging, pointers pointing, etc etc you get the point. Why wouldn't shepherds use lurchers to herd sheep, or collies to retrieve game?
Scottyjock - tuche'........lol. You have me stumped. OK, maybe they are not all blank canvases.
scottyjock
04-Apr-11, 08:12
Scottyjock - tuche'........lol. You have me stumped. OK, maybe they are not all blank canvases.
Aye Lassie, do not put yourself down, you have obviously worked hard on your wee dog and it seems obvious that others have on here too. In all my years of working with animals i have never come across a dog that has been 'trained' to be aggressive, i have however seen Pits that have been trained to reach their physical fitness best, ie on treadmills, pulling sleds, hanging off tyres to improve the muscle mass in the jaw etc.
Ok, so we all know (if we are completely honest with ourselves) that terriers have a bit of a reputation for sometimes being a bit 'iffy' with other dogs and animals (note i am not saying they are aggressive with humans), well the clue here is in the title of the breed, Pit Bull TERRIER, Staffordshire Bull TERRIER, etc.
I have seen too many Staffs/APBT etc etc owned by older people, nice people, middle class people, however you wish to say it, that are really dog aggressive, for me to agree that it is PURELY down to how you bring your dog up. You cannot defy genetics, they play a large part, alongside owner training.
Aye Lassie, do not put yourself down, you have obviously worked hard on your wee dog and it seems obvious that others have on here too. In all my years of working with animals i have never come across a dog that has been 'trained' to be aggressive, i have however seen Pits that have been trained to reach their physical fitness best, ie on treadmills, pulling sleds, hanging off tyres to improve the muscle mass in the jaw etc.
Ok, so we all know (if we are completely honest with ourselves) that terriers have a bit of a reputation for sometimes being a bit 'iffy' with other dogs and animals (note i am not saying they are aggressive with humans), well the clue here is in the title of the breed, Pit Bull TERRIER, Staffordshire Bull TERRIER, etc.
I have seen too many Staffs/APBT etc etc owned by older people, nice people, middle class people, however you wish to say it, that are really dog aggressive, for me to agree that it is PURELY how you bring a dog. You cannot defy genetics, they play a large part, alongside owner training.
I agree Scottyjock, we have a Border TERRIER who was socialised with other dogs and trained well but can still be aggressive towards some other dogs. Believe me this is not something we have trained her to do and I really wish she was not like this. She is absolutely brilliant with adults and children, really gentle. I have spoken to other BT owners and some breeders who have told me that this is a characteristic of the breed and that when they meet another dog they either love them or hate them. I'm not saying that all Border Terriers are like this, our other BT Charlie has never showed any aggression.
Crackeday
04-Apr-11, 11:14
I have 3 lovely staffs 2 rescue 1 bought. They live together quite happily and never want to go for other dogs. My wife too has been met by a dog owner with a small dog who barked and growled at 1 of my boys. My boy just looked at my wife as if to say "whats all that about?". he wasnt in the least bit interested in the dog, though he was wagging his tail, but the "lady" with the small dog just looked at my boy as if he was going to tear her dog limb from limb, not the other way around!!!!!!
My 3 are different shapes and sizes, my oldest boy is a short legged old type staff, wheras my other boy is bigger and my girl is quite long. There all different but they have an excellent grasp of Grammar!!!!!!! :)
Interestingly enough my 2 boys have been "done" which I think goes a long way to cut down on aggression has anyone else found this?
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