View Full Version : Benefits Fraud
its good to know that some people do get caught and actually prosocuted. hopefully this is a sign of things to come.
Once an investigation has identified that an overpayment of benefit has occurred this must be repaid. If there is evidence that a person has committed a criminal offence then the Council may decide to take further action. This can include the issue of a Formal Caution, Administering a financial penalty or ultimately prosecution through the Courts.
To date Calderdale Council has administered.
Formal CautionsAdministrative Penalty Prosecutions854868
Below are details of cases successfully prosecuted by Calderdale Council for benefit fraud during 2005/06.
1. Mrs R was ordered to pay £250 in costs and received 40 Hours Community Punishment after pleading guilty to four offences of benefit fraud. Mrs R continued to claim Housing Benefit for an address she no longer lived at. The overpaid benefits in this case were over £5000.
2. Mrs M pleaded guilty to dishonestly making false statements on benefit application forms. The case was brought after Investigators identified that she had failed to declare that she was working, had other undeclared income and that she had several bank accounts containing savings. The Court sentenced her to 140 Community Punishment and ordered her to pay £300 costs.
3. Miss B fraudulently claimed more than £9000 in Housing and Council Tax benefits after she deliberately made false declarations on her benefit claim forms. On her claim form she had failed to declare the true relationship between her landlord and family members. After pleading guilty at Calderdale Magistrates Court she received 60 Hours Community Punishment along with £100 costs.
4. Mrs M pleaded guilty to 13 separate dishonesty
offences of claiming more than £10,400 in Housing and Council Tax benefits. Between 2002 and 2004 she forged documents and lied about her relationship with her landlord. Calderdale Magistrates imposed an 18 month Community Punishment and Rehabilitation Order which included 80 hours Community Service as well as being ordering her to pay £400 costs.
5. Miss S pleaded guilty at Bradford Crown Court to three offences of dishonesty. A joint investigation with the Department for Work and Pensions revealed that she had claimed over £2000 as a single person whilst living with her partner. The Court imposed 120 hours Community Service.
6. Miss B fraudulently claimed more than £8,500 in benefits. Following the investigation between Calderdale Council and the Department for Work and Pensions she pleaded guilty to five offences of failing to report that between October 2003 and December 2004 she had been working at a local care home, she received 120 hours Community Service.
7. Mr M was sent to prison for three months after he admitted his part in a fraud that resulted in over £44,000 of Income Support, Housing and Council Tax benefits being overpaid. Appearing before the Court he admitted allowing another person to submit claims to benefit that he knew were not true.
8. Mr W claimed Housing and Council Tax benefits as a single man whilst living with his wife who was working. The fraud amounted to over £6,500. He pleaded guilty to making false statements on application forms over a number of years. The Court sentenced him to a 12 months Community Rehabilitation order and ordered him to pay £400 costs.
9. Miss A fraudulently claimed Income Support, Housing and Council Tax benefits of over £10,000. Her failure to declare that she had been working for two years as a cleaner resulted in the Court imposing the maximum Community Service Order of 240 hours.
10. Miss G received a 6 month Community Rehabilitation order as well as being ordered to pay £250 in costs after she claimed more than £1500 in Housing benefits. Miss G admitted that she had lied to a Council Official by giving false information about the true identity of her landlord.
11. Mr N was ordered to pay £350 in costs and received a 6 month Conditional Discharge after he admitted that he had failed to report a change in his circumstances that he knew would affect the amount of benefit he would be paid. He had been paid over £2,500 in Housing and Council Tax Benefits after failing to report his full financial circumstances.
12. Mr A appeared before Bradford Crown Court faced with charges of deliberately making a false statement on a benefit application form by not declaring he was in receipt of Tax Credits. The overpaid benefits in this case were £1,700 and he pleaded guilty. He received a 2 year conditional discharge and was ordered to pay £500 costs.
13. Mr K was given a 10 week Curfew order and £600 costs after he admitted to dishonestly making false statements in order to claim Housing and Council Tax benefits. He had received over £7,800 before Investigators identified that he owned other property outside Calderdale and had been working as a security guard.
14. Miss O was prosecuted for failing to declare on a benefit claim form that she was receiving Tax Credits. The Court imposed 60 Hours Community Punishment Order and £100 costs
15. Miss M was overpaid Income support. Housing and Council Tax benefits of £4,500. A joint Investigation between Calderdale Council and the Department for Work and Pensions revealed that she had been working at a local nursing home for over two years. Following her guilty plea she was sentenced to 100 hours Community Punishment.
16. Miss J pleaded guilty at Calderdale Magistrates after she had failed to report a change in her circumstances that she knew would affect her Housing and Council Tax benefits. Miss J was overpaid over £2000 after she failed to report that there had been a change in the number of people living in her home. The Court imposed a 6 week curfew order.
17. Mr T received an absolute discharge after pleading guilty to knowingly making a false statement on a benefit application form. He had failed to declare he was working at a local hotel, in total he was overpaid over £2000.
18. Miss C pleaded guilty to three offences of dishonestly making false statements on benefit claim forms over a number of years after she failed to declare she was working. Between 2002 and 2004 she claimed over £3,700 in Housing and Council Tax benefits she knew she was not entitled to receive. A 2 year conditional discharge was imposed by the Court.
19. Ms B fraudulently claimed £3,700 in Housing and Council Tax benefits. From March 04 to March 05 she was working and in receipt of Tax Credits which she failed to report to the Council. The Court sentenced her to 100 Hours Community Service.
Buttercup
03-Sep-06, 20:12
Good to see these kind of people getting caught.
The "in" thing seems to be couples pretending to be staying apart. They then get off with paying the single occupancy council tax and probably a rent rebate as well! You notice it when you read the court cases and discover them giving their parent's address instead of where they are actually staying. Another one is when they both get council houses and only ever live together in one. It's annoying to us who are paying our way.
connieb19
03-Sep-06, 20:18
Every day another story comes to light about someone fiddling the state.
I love the analogy though - "I'm working and earning money and they want to take benefit off me".
Isn't that the point of working - so you don't need the benefit ??
People should be proud they're not taking off the state not resentful..[evil]
Good to see these kind of people getting caught.
Another one is when they both get council houses and only ever live together in one.
I agree, although i'm not surprised to see the usual community service.:roll:
maybe its time people with kids realised that they are not above the law, its the kids that i feel sorry for
31 August 2006
TV WIFE FACES JAIL OVER CON
By Brian Roberts
A WOMAN is facing jail after going on TV's Wife Swap - while claiming benefit as a single mum.
Becky Fairhurst, 30, who swindled £20,939, was rumbled when she was filmed living with her now ex-partner Jason Hill.
The mum of three, seen swigging down cans of Stella and swearing, was on the hit Channel 4 show in 2004 - but was claiming single person's benefit at the time.
Fairhurst of Colne, Lancs, pleaded guilty at Burnley crown court to five counts of benefit fraud and asked for 77 other offences to be taken into consideration.
A source at the Department of Work and Pensions said: "She has got to be the most stupid claimant we have ever come across.
"To claim benefits as a single mum and then go on a programme like Wife Swap is unbelievable."
Fairhurst was bailed and will be sentenced next month. Judge Barbara Watson said all sentencing options remained open.
Isn't that the point of working - so you don't need the benefit ??
People should be proud they're not taking off the state not resentful..[evil]
Some working people have their wages topped up with working tax benefit.
In some cases it is not a person's fault they are claiming benefit. What i strongly disagree with is lazy people not willing to work!:roll:
maybe its time people with kids realised that they are not above the law, its the kids that i feel sorry for
31 August 2006
TV WIFE FACES JAIL OVER CON
By Brian Roberts
A WOMAN is facing jail after going on TV's Wife Swap - while claiming benefit as a single mum.
Becky Fairhurst, 30, who swindled £20,939, was rumbled when she was filmed living with her now ex-partner Jason Hill.
The mum of three, seen swigging down cans of Stella and swearing, was on the hit Channel 4 show in 2004 - but was claiming single person's benefit at the time.
Fairhurst of Colne, Lancs, pleaded guilty at Burnley crown court to five counts of benefit fraud and asked for 77 other offences to be taken into consideration.
A source at the Department of Work and Pensions said: "She has got to be the most stupid claimant we have ever come across.
"To claim benefits as a single mum and then go on a programme like Wife Swap is unbelievable."
Fairhurst was bailed and will be sentenced next month. Judge Barbara Watson said all sentencing options remained open.
And she was'nt even blonde!..lol[lol]
Billy Boy
03-Sep-06, 21:09
one thing that really confusses me is, one of my mates has a neighbour who is a single parent with 1 kid and on benefits yet she has a fairly new people carrier how can she afford it and affort to run it.
i also know of atleast 3 other families who are all on benefits and have been for years yet they to have fairly new people carriers aswell, surely if they can afford cars like that and run them they shouldnt be getting so much in benefits[disgust]
Buttercup
03-Sep-06, 21:24
What I can't understand is how do these people manage to get council houses.
There's one case in particular that gets me. The son was staying in away for a wee while (invited by her majesty so to speak), he then comes back (having got married) and he moves in with his wife (3 roomed house). After a wee while they decide to move in with his mother (old woman on her own in a 3 roomed house - definately a fiddle how she got that). Mother and daughter-in-law don't get on. Mother gets another house (thought there was a waiting list:confused ) same time as daughter-in-law moves out! Son/husband then up before Sheriff (assaulted wife). Wife (rehoused elsewhere) goes to court to speak up for him and say what a good husband he is at the same time they separate for good. Meanwhile son/husband has moved in with mum. Now we have a 3 roomed house lying empty for months!!! Who's paying the council tax and rent? YOU and ME that's who. Isn't it time this sort of fraud was dealt with?[mad]
connieb19
03-Sep-06, 21:28
What I can't understand is how do these people manage to get council houses.
There's one case in particular that gets me. The son was staying in away for a wee while (invited by her majesty so to speak), he then comes back (having got married) and he moves in with his wife (3 roomed house). After a wee while they decide to move in with his mother (old woman on her own in a 3 roomed house - definately a fiddle how she got that). Mother and daughter-in-law don't get on. Mother gets another house (thought there was a waiting list:confused ) same time as daughter-in-law moves out! Son/husband then up before Sheriff (assaulted wife). Wife (rehoused elsewhere) goes to court to speak up for him and say what a good husband he is at the same time they separate for good. Meanwhile son/husband has moved in with mum. Now we have a 3 roomed house lying empty for months!!! Who's paying the council tax and rent? YOU and ME that's who. Isn't it time this sort of fraud was dealt with?[mad] I bet if they were paying the rent and council tax themselves they wouldn't be so quick to have all these houses.
How on earth does a pensioner get to stay in a 3 bedroomed house when there are families waiting on houses?
I bet if they were paying the rent and council tax themselves they wouldn't be so quick to have all these houses.
How on earth does a pensioner get to stay in a 3 bedroomed house when there are families waiting on houses?
she woudn't be put out of it if she had been living in it all her life - i doubt if she would have got it when she was alone. My friend wanted a two bedroomed house so her family could come home for holidays, but was told she couldn't get one as she was living alone.
But then she doesn't know how to fiddle the system.
percy toboggan
03-Sep-06, 21:34
I don't condone this of course. Though maybe someone could devote a similarly exhaustive post to exposing tax evaders at the other end of the scale. I have no doubt that the sums involved would make what we've seen here look paltry indeed.
So much wealth is syphoned offshore through various accounting scams yet seldom do we here about it. The gap between richest and poorest gets ever wider At the same time unclaimed benefits dwarfs the sums that are fiddled.
I've no time for dole cheats and social security swindlers and think that many of them should go to Prison, but let's not focus all our condemnation on those at the bottom of the economic ladder.
i think these people should be named and shamed.[evil]
there are so many people on the dole who really want to work so why dont they employ them to go around checking for people who claim housing benefit & saying they are unable to work. it wouldnt be that hard to watch a house for a few days to see if they are actually living there and if they are leaving for work, someone who leaves home at the same time everyday all they have to do is follow them.
if someone cant prove that they are actively seeking work after 6 months should be made to do some sort of community service atleast then they would be doing some good for their money:mad:
I bet if they were paying the rent and council tax themselves they wouldn't be so quick to have all these houses.
How on earth does a pensioner get to stay in a 3 bedroomed house when there are families waiting on houses?
How about a couple (pensioners) living in a 4 bedroomed house.[evil]
Buttercup
03-Sep-06, 21:36
I bet if they were paying the rent and council tax themselves they wouldn't be so quick to have all these houses.
How on earth does a pensioner get to stay in a 3 bedroomed house when there are families waiting on houses?
You've got to have the right last name Connie! Simple as that.
i think these people should be named and shamed.[evil]
there are so many people on the dole who really want to work so why dont they employ them to go around checking for people who claim housing benefit & saying they are unable to work.
Great idea sam, i agree.:D
connieb19
03-Sep-06, 21:39
How about a couple of pensioners living in a 4 bedroomed house.[evil]How can they posibly need a house this size? You'd think they would want a smaller house due to heating costs if nothing else.. Again, if they had to pay the rent they wouldn't be so keen to stay..[disgust]
How about a couple (pensioners) living in a 4 bedroomed house.[evil]
like percy toboggan said maybe they had lived their all there live's, with their family grown up they cant put them out of their house just cos it has 4 bedrooms
Buttercup
03-Sep-06, 21:42
she woudn't be put out of it if she had been living in it all her life - i doubt if she would have got it when she was alone. My friend wanted a two bedroomed house so her family could come home for holidays, but was told she couldn't get one as she was living alone.
But then she doesn't know how to fiddle the system.
Just to set the record straight.
The older woman I was talking about moved into the 3 roomed house from a 2 roomed that she'd moved to from a 1 roomed. All the while ON HER OWN!
if someone cant prove that they are actively seeking work after 6 months should be made to do some sort of community service atleast then they would be doing some good for their money:mad:
I don't think people should be paid for doing nothing. If they are on the bru, why can't they do community service anyway? And what's even worse, alcoholics get extra so they can buy drink!
like percy toboggan said maybe they had lived their all there live's, with their family grown up they cant put them out of their house just cos it has 4 bedrooms
There would be sparks flying off their shoe heels if they were made to pay the rent and council tax though.[disgust]
well i know of one person who has a house for about a year not to far away from me . lets just say i can count on one hand how many time they have stayed in it. the rest of the time they stay we there partner and they are claiming benefits makes me blood boil especially when i was out of work for a Short time and the brew didn't even help me .
How can they posibly need a house this size? You'd think they would want a smaller house due to heating costs if nothing else.. Again, if they had to pay the rent they wouldn't be so keen to stay..[disgust]
Once upon a time they likely did, but once their families have grown up they should be made to pay the rent and council tax. That would start shifting them.[disgust]
There would be sparks flying off their shoe heels if they were made to pay the rent and council tax though.[disgust]
i know of someone who didnt pay their council tax for years, they have now caught up with them and they have to pay back over £10.000. they are paying ity back at £300 a week as he is now in a good paid job
i have no sympathy atall except for their kids, just goes to show the system can work sometimes
Buttercup
03-Sep-06, 21:52
Once upon a time they likely did, but once their families have grown up they should be made to pay the rent and council tax. That would start shifting them.[disgust]
I know of 1 or 2 people living on their own in a 3 roomed houses but also know that they are paying their way and not getting rent rebates. So they are quite legit. If they can afford to pay out then why not if they've been living there donkey's years. It's when they get a family size house when there's just 1 that the problems arise.
pultneytooner
03-Sep-06, 21:53
What I can't understand is how do these people manage to get council houses.
There's one case in particular that gets me. The son was staying in away for a wee while (invited by her majesty so to speak), he then comes back (having got married) and he moves in with his wife (3 roomed house). After a wee while they decide to move in with his mother (old woman on her own in a 3 roomed house - definately a fiddle how she got that). Mother and daughter-in-law don't get on. Mother gets another house (thought there was a waiting list ) same time as daughter-in-law moves out! Son/husband then up before Sheriff (assaulted wife). Wife (rehoused elsewhere) goes to court to speak up for him and say what a good husband he is at the same time they separate for good. Meanwhile son/husband has moved in with mum. Now we have a 3 roomed house lying empty for months!!! Who's paying the council tax and rent? YOU and ME that's who. Isn't it time this sort of fraud was dealt with?[mad]
Not neccessarily a fiddle if the old woman had a family beforehand and lived in that 3 roomed house for years, the council or whoever cannot make her give the house up when her family move out.
Sorry percy, you already gave that answer, that'll teach me to read all the posts.[lol]
a lot of people are complaining about folk defrauding the system here, but how many have actually reported someone for it, it we dont then we are condoning what they are doing.
i for one dont see why i should work and pay for them and do nothing to stop them getting away with it, i have even reported a distant relative i would be a hypocrite if i didnt
Buttercup
03-Sep-06, 21:58
Not neccessarily a fiddle if the old woman had a family beforehand and lived in that 3 roomed house for years, the council or whoever cannot make her give the house up when her family move out.
Sorry percy, you already gave that answer, that'll teach me to read all the posts.[lol]
I (tried) to explain that here Pultneytooner:
Quote:
Originally Posted by katarina http://forum.caithness.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?p=129636#post129636)
she woudn't be put out of it if she had been living in it all her life - i doubt if she would have got it when she was alone. My friend wanted a two bedroomed house so her family could come home for holidays, but was told she couldn't get one as she was living alone.
But then she doesn't know how to fiddle the system.
Just to set the record straight.
The older woman I was talking about moved into the 3 roomed house from a 2 roomed that she'd moved to from a 1 roomed. All the while ON HER OWN!
well i have to say i know a few that are fiddling the system and they are proud of it and people say there stupid dont think so we are the stupid ones there getting it for free and we are paying who is the stupid on there .
pultneytooner
03-Sep-06, 22:00
I (tried) to explain that here Pultneytooner:
Quote:
Originally Posted by katarina http://forum.caithness.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?p=129636#post129636)
she woudn't be put out of it if she had been living in it all her life - i doubt if she would have got it when she was alone. My friend wanted a two bedroomed house so her family could come home for holidays, but was told she couldn't get one as she was living alone.
But then she doesn't know how to fiddle the system.
Just to set the record straight.
The older woman I was talking about moved into the 3 roomed house from a 2 roomed that she'd moved to from a 1 roomed. All the while ON HER OWN!
Sorry buttercup, as I said, that'll teach me to read all the posts.:)
Buttercup
03-Sep-06, 22:01
a lot of people are complaining about folk defrauding the system here, but how many have actually reported someone for it, it we dont then we are condoning what they are doing.
i for one dont see why i should work and pay for them and do nothing to stop them getting away with it, i have even reported a distant relative i would be a hypocrite if i didnt
I did report someone about a year ago. Have you seen the forms you have to fill in!:roll:
connieb19
03-Sep-06, 22:02
well i have to say i know a few that are fiddling the system and they are proud of it and people say there stupid dont think so we are the stupid ones there getting it for free and we are paying who is the stupid on there .
You have your pride and self respect though icebox, which is something you will pass onto your kids. That is something they will never have, they don't even know how it feels.
You have your pride and self respect though icebox, which is something you will pass onto your kids. That is something they will never have, they don't even know how it feels.
Very true connie ;)
I did report someone about a year ago. Have you seen the forms you have to fill in!:roll:
i know it like writting a novel but it was worth it
Buttercup
03-Sep-06, 22:05
Sorry buttercup, as I said, that'll teach me to read all the posts.:)
It's OK Pultneytooner! Just me in full flow, after a glass (or two) of wine. I'm not very good at explaining things and don't want to get into trouble with mods. by making a slip up! ;)
its good to know that some people do get caught and actually prosocuted. hopefully this is a sign of things to come.
Once an investigation has identified that an overpayment of benefit has occurred this must be repaid. If there is evidence that a person has committed a criminal offence then the Council may decide to take further action. This can include the issue of a Formal Caution, Administering a financial penalty or ultimately prosecution through the Courts.
To date Calderdale Council has administered.
Formal CautionsAdministrative Penalty Prosecutions854868
Below are details of cases successfully prosecuted by Calderdale Council for benefit fraud during 2005/06.
1. Mrs R was ordered to pay £250 in costs and received 40 Hours Community Punishment after pleading guilty to four offences of benefit fraud. Mrs R continued to claim Housing Benefit for an address she no longer lived at. The overpaid benefits in this case were over £5000.
2. Mrs M pleaded guilty to dishonestly making false statements on benefit application forms. The case was brought after Investigators identified that she had failed to declare that she was working, had other undeclared income and that she had several bank accounts containing savings. The Court sentenced her to 140 Community Punishment and ordered her to pay £300 costs.
3. Miss B fraudulently claimed more than £9000 in Housing and Council Tax benefits after she deliberately made false declarations on her benefit claim forms. On her claim form she had failed to declare the true relationship between her landlord and family members. After pleading guilty at Calderdale Magistrates Court she received 60 Hours Community Punishment along with £100 costs.
4. Mrs M pleaded guilty to 13 separate dishonesty
offences of claiming more than £10,400 in Housing and Council Tax benefits. Between 2002 and 2004 she forged documents and lied about her relationship with her landlord. Calderdale Magistrates imposed an 18 month Community Punishment and Rehabilitation Order which included 80 hours Community Service as well as being ordering her to pay £400 costs.
5. Miss S pleaded guilty at Bradford Crown Court to three offences of dishonesty. A joint investigation with the Department for Work and Pensions revealed that she had claimed over £2000 as a single person whilst living with her partner. The Court imposed 120 hours Community Service.
6. Miss B fraudulently claimed more than £8,500 in benefits. Following the investigation between Calderdale Council and the Department for Work and Pensions she pleaded guilty to five offences of failing to report that between October 2003 and December 2004 she had been working at a local care home, she received 120 hours Community Service.
7. Mr M was sent to prison for three months after he admitted his part in a fraud that resulted in over £44,000 of Income Support, Housing and Council Tax benefits being overpaid. Appearing before the Court he admitted allowing another person to submit claims to benefit that he knew were not true.
8. Mr W claimed Housing and Council Tax benefits as a single man whilst living with his wife who was working. The fraud amounted to over £6,500. He pleaded guilty to making false statements on application forms over a number of years. The Court sentenced him to a 12 months Community Rehabilitation order and ordered him to pay £400 costs.
9. Miss A fraudulently claimed Income Support, Housing and Council Tax benefits of over £10,000. Her failure to declare that she had been working for two years as a cleaner resulted in the Court imposing the maximum Community Service Order of 240 hours.
10. Miss G received a 6 month Community Rehabilitation order as well as being ordered to pay £250 in costs after she claimed more than £1500 in Housing benefits. Miss G admitted that she had lied to a Council Official by giving false information about the true identity of her landlord.
11. Mr N was ordered to pay £350 in costs and received a 6 month Conditional Discharge after he admitted that he had failed to report a change in his circumstances that he knew would affect the amount of benefit he would be paid. He had been paid over £2,500 in Housing and Council Tax Benefits after failing to report his full financial circumstances.
12. Mr A appeared before Bradford Crown Court faced with charges of deliberately making a false statement on a benefit application form by not declaring he was in receipt of Tax Credits. The overpaid benefits in this case were £1,700 and he pleaded guilty. He received a 2 year conditional discharge and was ordered to pay £500 costs.
13. Mr K was given a 10 week Curfew order and £600 costs after he admitted to dishonestly making false statements in order to claim Housing and Council Tax benefits. He had received over £7,800 before Investigators identified that he owned other property outside Calderdale and had been working as a security guard.
14. Miss O was prosecuted for failing to declare on a benefit claim form that she was receiving Tax Credits. The Court imposed 60 Hours Community Punishment Order and £100 costs
15. Miss M was overpaid Income support. Housing and Council Tax benefits of £4,500. A joint Investigation between Calderdale Council and the Department for Work and Pensions revealed that she had been working at a local nursing home for over two years. Following her guilty plea she was sentenced to 100 hours Community Punishment.
16. Miss J pleaded guilty at Calderdale Magistrates after she had failed to report a change in her circumstances that she knew would affect her Housing and Council Tax benefits. Miss J was overpaid over £2000 after she failed to report that there had been a change in the number of people living in her home. The Court imposed a 6 week curfew order.
17. Mr T received an absolute discharge after pleading guilty to knowingly making a false statement on a benefit application form. He had failed to declare he was working at a local hotel, in total he was overpaid over £2000.
18. Miss C pleaded guilty to three offences of dishonestly making false statements on benefit claim forms over a number of years after she failed to declare she was working. Between 2002 and 2004 she claimed over £3,700 in Housing and Council Tax benefits she knew she was not entitled to receive. A 2 year conditional discharge was imposed by the Court.
19. Ms B fraudulently claimed £3,700 in Housing and Council Tax benefits. From March 04 to March 05 she was working and in receipt of Tax Credits which she failed to report to the Council. The Court sentenced her to 100 Hours Community Service.
Maybe they are being made to pay it back but that is a pretty good rate of return they are getting. Heck I would do 40-100 hours community service for £4000-10000: They should be fined AND made to pay it all back!
I did report someone about a year ago. Have you seen the forms you have to fill in!:roll:Do you have to give your name? i thought you could do it anonymous .
they should be given hefty fines at that
connieb19
03-Sep-06, 22:08
Maybe they are being made to pay it back but that is a pretty good rate of return they are getting. Heck I would do 40-100 hours community service for £4000-10000: They should be fined AND made to pay it all back!Exactly, These sentences are no deterrant!! [disgust]
And what's even worse, alcoholics get extra so they can buy drink!
I could not believe that when i heard it, they can be paid as much as £30 a week for being an alky.:roll:
just the same as down south a drug addict gets extra money aswell
just the same as down south a drug addict gets extra money aswell
They'll be buying the fags for the smokers next.:roll:
connieb19
03-Sep-06, 22:12
I could not believe that when i heard it, they can be paid as much as £30 a week for being an alky.:roll:
If we had all the alkys and fiddlers doing community service maybe the rest of us could be on a 3 day week lol.:roll:
I could not believe that when i heard it, they can be paid as much as £30 a week for being an alky.:roll:yes the red carpet goes out for them and the rest of the jobless worthes and the working man get nothing .:mad:
i reckon they should send all dole cheats to an american style bootcamp for a month with no exceptions that would make the blighters think twice
What gets me mad is the people who get disability cars and there is not a thing wrong with them.[disgust] I have even heard of some people getting the cars then trying to sell the car!!! [mad]
dragonfly
03-Sep-06, 22:15
I could not believe that when i heard it, they can be paid as much as £30 a week for being an alky.:roll:
thats ridiculous, no wonder they want to doss around all day and keep everyone awake all night just cos they've been on the peeve with money we've worked hard for! [evil]
connieb19
03-Sep-06, 22:15
They'll be buying the fags for the smokers next.:roll:
It's already only the unemployable who can afford to go out every weekend, no respect for the people who have worked all week, who can only go out now and again.
Just to set the record straight.
The older woman I was talking about moved into the 3 roomed house from a 2 roomed that she'd moved to from a 1 roomed. All the while ON HER OWN!
How on earth did she manage that? Where about is this? And why would anyone want to keep moving? Think about the stress involved in the flitting!
What gets me mad is the people who get disability cars and there is not a thing wrong with them.[disgust] I have even heard of some people getting the cars then trying to sell the car!!! [mad]i hear they will put you through your test if you cant drive .
What gets me mad is the people who get disability cars and there is not a thing wrong with them.[disgust] I have even heard of some people getting the cars then trying to sell the car!!!
I noticed today a man who has been an alky for many moons, driving a flash 06 car. He is obviously claiming a disability, or perhaps he has just saved up his weekly pocket money of £30.[disgust]
connieb19
03-Sep-06, 22:17
What gets me mad is the people who get disability cars and there is not a thing wrong with them.[disgust] I have even heard of some people getting the cars then trying to sell the car!!! [mad]
That's usually people who have never worked or paid a pennys tax too!! Grrrrrrr Grrrrrrrr!!!!
i know of an alchoholic who got a car and couldnt drive so his mate got paid to drive him about not that is well out of order[evil]
It's already only the unemployable who can afford to go out every weekend, no respect for the people who have worked all week, who can only go out now and again.
I have had a night out twice since 2004.:(
connieb19
03-Sep-06, 22:19
i hear they will put you through your test if you cant drive .
And fit SKYTV if you dont like going out of the house except for weekends.[disgust]
That's usually people who have never worked or paid a pennys tax too!! Grrrrrrr Grrrrrrrr!!!!All i can say is it's joke and it's on us
connieb19
03-Sep-06, 22:22
Where's the help for the people who do work? :(
I have had a night out twice since 2004.:(what u doing this weekend ? [lol]
they just have to work harder
i hear they will put you through your test if you cant drive .
Never grrr
I noticed today a man who has been an alky for many moons, driving a flash 06 car. He is obviously claiming a disability, or perhaps he has just saved up his weekly pocket money of £30.[disgust]
aye and just think is it every 3 years he will get a new one or is it every year.
That's usually people who have never worked or paid a pennys tax too!! Grrrrrrr Grrrrrrrr!!!!
Yep got it in one connie.
Buttercup
03-Sep-06, 22:24
How on earth did she manage that? Where about is this? And why would anyone want to keep moving? Think about the stress involved in the flitting!
Because, as I said to Connie, you have to have the right last name to open all the doors and have everyone frightened of you.When you move you can then get more money from the council to do the house up!
What stress?- Maybe to you or I. But she has a large family that do all the moving and everything else for her. She just goes out to the bingo or somewhere and they get on with it.
what u doing this weekend ? [lol]
Same as usual..................nowt!:roll:
i saw a car in thurso with a sticker that said .....Work harder those on benefits depend on us.
how very very true
Should an alcoholic be driving anyway? Now I've heard everything! I suppose if he got caught drunk driving they would pay his fine!
I damaged my car one-time and the insurance company supplied me with one until my own one was fixed. on both sides of that car in bold letters was, Hired Car.
Why can't they do that with disability cars? like, This person driving claims to have a disability, if you know different. Shop them.[lol]
I Know of one alcoholic who got a fancy new disability car. (a people carrier might i add) Who lives on his own and his son has it most of the time to cruise around the streets with his girlfriend and mates.
pultneytooner
03-Sep-06, 22:41
I damaged my car one-time and the insurance company supplied me with one until my own one was fixed. on both sides of that car in bold letters was, Hired Car.
Why can't they do that with disability cars? like, This person driving claims to have a disability, if you know different. Shop them.[lol]
Would the cheaters really want to drive then.
And this is why wick has one of the highest unenployment rate in the country the must be proud to be at the top of the leader board ..... wasters .
Right, that's it. Who wants to come around to mine 4 or 5 nights a week drinking wine?? There's £30 each a week up for grabs.[disgust]
Then we could all imagine we have aches and pains, claim disability and whoopie, a brand new car.:roll:
dont forget the free sky tv for when we are that drunk we cant stand and have to stay in
connieb19
03-Sep-06, 22:54
Right, that's it. Who wants to come around to mine 4 or 5 nights a week drinking wine?? There's £30 each a week up for grabs.[disgust]
Then we could all imagine we have aches and pains, claim disability and whoopie, a brand new car.:roll:
No thanks, I'd rather have my self respect and my old banger.
kwbrown111
03-Sep-06, 22:54
Ok before i start i am on benefit, but i agree the system is wrong especially disability. some people get higher rate mobility(ie a car and no road tax) for ie gout(supposedly because they can't walk at all) yet people who are blind or partially sighted only get lower rate and none of the other benefits. so in some ways i agree with you but not all should be labelled scroungers
j4bberw0ck
03-Sep-06, 22:55
I could not believe that when i heard it, they can be paid as much as £30 a week for being an alky.:roll:
Oh dear. I don't want to say something unpopular here, but this is a very stupid attitude to take.
Alcoholism is now generally, and respectably, considered a disease. If you remove alcohol from an alcoholic suddenly and without warning, there's an excellent chance they'll end up either insane or dead. Likewise people addicted to crack, heroin, and a number of other drugs. Or. of course, they'll just turn to crime to fund their habit. And please do not confuse me with people who think criminals are just misguided angels. Confuse me instead with people who think that anyone can make a mistake, but that recovering from it may take great personal sacrifice.
If you think that it's unfair that alcoholics receive money to alleviate their disease symptoms, you presumably believe that people who need insulin, or thyroxin, shouldn't get free prescriptions for everything, for life (as detailed in another thread)?
Do try to think logically............. :lol:
The thing is most of them say they cant read or write so that makes them unemployable. But yet they cant still drive and read road signs ... Mmmmm O and sign on every fortnight they dont seem to have any trouble signing there name .
connieb19
03-Sep-06, 23:01
Oh dear. I don't want to say something unpopular here, but this is a very stupid attitude to take.
Alcoholism is now generally, and respectably, considered a disease. If you remove alcohol from an alcoholic suddenly and without warning, there's an excellent chance they'll end up either insane or dead. Likewise people addicted to crack, heroin, and a number of other drugs. Or. of course, they'll just turn to crime to fund their habit. And please do not confuse me with people who think criminals are just misguided angels. Confuse me instead with people who think that anyone can make a mistake, but that recovering from it may take great personal sacrifice.
If you think that it's unfair that alcoholics receive money to alleviate their disease symptoms, you presumably believe that people who need insulin, or thyroxin, shouldn't get free prescriptions for everything, for life (as detailed in another thread)?
Do try to think logically............. :lol:Nobodys having a go at the genuine people. We're talking about the cheats. I know someone who gets £30 a week for being an alcoholic, he never touches drink, he spends the money on dope and E's at the weekend and is too rough in the mornings to want a job.
Oh dear. I don't want to say something unpopular here, but this is a very stupid attitude to take.
Alcoholism is now generally, and respectably, considered a disease. If you remove alcohol from an alcoholic suddenly and without warning, there's an excellent chance they'll end up either insane or dead. Likewise people addicted to crack, heroin, and a number of other drugs. Or. of course, they'll just turn to crime to fund their habit. And please do not confuse me with people who think criminals are just misguided angels. Confuse me instead with people who think that anyone can make a mistake, but that recovering from it may take great personal sacrifice.
If you think that it's unfair that alcoholics receive money to alleviate their disease symptoms, you presumably believe that people who need insulin, or thyroxin, shouldn't get free prescriptions for everything, for life (as detailed in another thread)?
Do try to think logically.............
Excuse me!! Stupid attitude!! Think locically!! There is help for alkys and it's not by giving them £30 a week.:eek: And don't presume because i disagree with that, that i disagree with free prescriptions.:roll:
A poll maybe?? who agrees that alkys should be funded?
Oh dear. I don't want to say something unpopular here, but this is a very stupid attitude to take.
Alcoholism is now generally, and respectably, considered a disease. If you remove alcohol from an alcoholic suddenly and without warning, there's an excellent chance they'll end up either insane or dead. Likewise people addicted to crack, heroin, and a number of other drugs. Or. of course, they'll just turn to crime to fund their habit. And please do not confuse me with people who think criminals are just misguided angels. Confuse me instead with people who think that anyone can make a mistake, but that recovering from it may take great personal sacrifice.
If you think that it's unfair that alcoholics receive money to alleviate their disease symptoms, you presumably believe that people who need insulin, or thyroxin, shouldn't get free prescriptions for everything, for life (as detailed in another thread)?
Do try to think logically............. :lol:sorry but i think they will live alot longer if they got off the booze and drugs and went out and earnt there own money and stop sponging of us instead of sitting about drinking them self death .
Nobodys having a go at the genuine people. We're talking about the cheats. I know someone who gets £30 a week for being an alcoholic, he never touches drink, he spends the money on dope and E's at the weekend and is too rough in the mornings to want a job.
Your right there connie, nobody is having a go at the genuine.:roll:
connieb19
03-Sep-06, 23:10
I was talking to someone a few weeks ago, she must be about 19/20 ish and I was asking her if she was enjoying her new job. She said she was enjoying it but they were wanting her to do more than the 16 hours she doing. She said there is no way she is wanting to work any nore hours because she gets her rent and council tax paid for. What an attitude coming from someone so young with no commitments.
I'm happy paying my taxes for the geniune people but honestly, every person I know who is on benefits are doing it because they think they are better off than if they were working.
Oh dear. I don't want to say something unpopular here, but this is a very stupid attitude to take.
Alcoholism is now generally, and respectably, considered a disease. If you remove alcohol from an alcoholic suddenly and without warning, there's an excellent chance they'll end up either insane or dead. Likewise people addicted to crack, heroin, and a number of other drugs. Or. of course, they'll just turn to crime to fund their habit. And please do not confuse me with people who think criminals are just misguided angels. Confuse me instead with people who think that anyone can make a mistake, but that recovering from it may take great personal sacrifice.
If you think that it's unfair that alcoholics receive money to alleviate their disease symptoms, you presumably believe that people who need insulin, or thyroxin, shouldn't get free prescriptions for everything, for life (as detailed in another thread)?
Do try to think logically............. :lol:
No one forced them to start drinking in the first place!!!
recovering from it may take great personal sacrifice.
And £30 a week helps that does it?
Medication springs to mind!
j4bberw0ck
03-Sep-06, 23:17
Excuse me!! Stupid attitude!! Think locically!! There is help for alkys and it's not by giving them £30 a week.:eek: And don't presume because i disagree with that, that i disagree with free prescriptions.:roll:
A poll maybe?? who agrees that alkys should be funded?
Who gave you the right to decide that one disease should be treated differently to another? Are you a doctor, perhaps? I stand by my original point; your thinking on this (if "thinking" is the appropraite term) is illogical and misguided.
Alcoholics who need treatment certainly should not be given a chunk of money to go spend on booze, and not even I think the governmment is so stupid as to do that. I do suspect there's been a misunderstanding somewhere; some confusion that the benefit-claiming "I'm better than you because I'm an honest claimant" brigade have seized upon........
[quote=j4bberw0ck;129769]
Alcoholics who need treatment certainly should not be given a chunk of money to go spend on booze, [quote]
My point exactly.:roll:
j4bberw0ck
03-Sep-06, 23:26
sorry but i think they will live alot longer if they got off the booze and drugs and went out and earnt there own money and stop sponging of us instead of sitting about drinking them self death .
Fine, icebox.
But in saying such a thing you've truly revealed the paucity of your thinking and opinions to the rest of the world. Long may you revel in your ignorance.
Perhaps next you'll decide that asthmatics should just pull themselves together, get a job, and stop making unpleasant noises while they sponge off us? Then of course, we have the paranoid schizophrenics......... easy! As "The Wicker Man" is being rereleased (and I suspect it'll be infinitely poorer than the original).......... we can just burn the suckers! Yayyyyy!
As for those perverts with MS or MND........ well, they're just not clean, are they? Not working.... scrounging..... scounging off us, mark you!..... wow. Yep, it's clear....... hanging for all of them.
I think you have a way to go before formulating a cohesive health strategy, sunbeam.
no one forces them to drink but yet they want the red carpet roll out and get all the freebbies have you ever heard the like of it £30 a week .To feed there problem its a joke and it's cost me a fortune tax i work nearly 7 day aweek and pay my taxes for the drunks to drink it up against the wall .and yet we should feel sorry for them i dont think so .
j4bberw0ck
03-Sep-06, 23:28
[quote=j4bberw0ck;129769]
Alcoholics who need treatment certainly should not be given a chunk of money to go spend on booze, [quote]
My point exactly.:roll:
Then you put it rather badly :lol: . But it doesn't make you unique.
Fine, icebox.
But in saying such a thing you've truly revealed the paucity of your thinking and opinions to the rest of the world. Long may you revel in your ignorance.
Perhaps next you'll decide that asthmatics should just pull themselves together, get a job, and stop making unpleasant noises while they sponge off us? Then of course, we have the paranoid schizophrenics......... easy! As "The Wicker Man" is being rereleased (and I suspect it'll be infinitely poorer than the original).......... we can just burn the suckers! Yayyyyy!
As for those perverts with MS or MND........ well, they're just not clean, are they? Not working.... scrounging..... scounging off us, mark you!..... wow. Yep, it's clear....... hanging for all of them.
I think you have a way to go before formulating a cohesive health strategy, sunbeam.you seem to be going of course here no one mentioned people with MS, MND may be you should go back and read the whole thread .before kicking off on one .
j4bberw0ck
03-Sep-06, 23:31
no one forces them to drink but yet they want the red carpet roll out and get all the freebbies have you ever heard the like of it £30 a week .To feed there problem its a joke and it's cost me a fortune tax i work nearly 7 day aweek and pay my taxes for the drunks to drink it up against the wall .and yet we should feel sorry for them i dont think so .
Good rant, if ill-informed garbage is your bag. Now answer the question about people with MS ir MND or any other disease you care to name that will debilitate people in the long term. Do they get help? Or are they, too, social rejects?
And your insults does'nt make you unique.[disgust]
[quote=angela5;129770][quote=j4bberw0ck;129769]
Alcoholics who need treatment certainly should not be given a chunk of money to go spend on booze,
Then you put it rather badly :lol: . But it doesn't make you unique.
maybe you should take heed of what you wrote in your location at the top right of your screen .
Good rant, if ill-informed garbage is your bag. Now answer the question about people with MS ir MND or any other disease you care to name that will debilitate people in the long term. Do they get help? Or are they, too, social rejects?
I would never class people with MS,MND social rejects. You are going too far and reading into things wrong.
Alcoholics choose to be alcoholics, and should not be funded with £30 per week to maintain their problem. There is help out there for them, i really don't believe that payment is one.
j4bberw0ck
03-Sep-06, 23:36
And your insults does'nt make you unique.[disgust]
Oh, dear. Insults? I hadn't thought so. If I wanted to insult you I'd say what I feel about your ill-informed, blinkered, small-minded and illogical viewpoints. As it is, I tried to draw your attention to your own illogicality.
Since that effort clearly went waaaaay over your head, I'll leave you to your narrow prejudices and the next episode of "Little Britain".
Enjoy! ;)
j4bberw0ck
03-Sep-06, 23:40
Alcoholics choose to be alcoholics
Ah, at last. Q.E.D.
You are completely, utterly and ignorantly wrong. Alcohol abusers may start by choosing to abuse alcohol.
Alcoholics have a genetic predisposition to it (fact), or have a genetic predisposition to be vulnerable to alcohol abuse. Dear me. And to think that in a democracy, you might be looking after patient welfare!
Bring forward the cattle wagons.............! :lol:
kwbrown111
03-Sep-06, 23:43
"Ah, at last. Q.E.D.
You are completely, utterly and ignorantly wrong. Alcohol abusers may start by choosing to abuse alcohol.
Alcoholics have a genetic predisposition to it (fact), or have a genetic predisposition to be vulnerable to alcohol abuse. Dear me. And to think that in a democracy, you might be looking after patient welfare!
Bring forward the cattle wagons.............! "
been there done that but still got off it. it takes will power
Ah, at last. Q.E.D.
You are completely, utterly and ignorantly wrong. Alcohol abusers may start by choosing to abuse alcohol.
Alcoholics have a genetic predisposition to it (fact), or have a genetic predisposition to be vulnerable to alcohol abuse. Dear me. And to think that in a democracy, you might be looking after patient welfare!
Bring forward the cattle wagons.............! :lol:so now your saying there born with it in them . no one is holding a gun to there head they choose to be one . :lol:
j4bberw0ck
03-Sep-06, 23:49
it takes will power
Well, well. Thank for letting us all know. So all those depressives, alcoholics, drug addicts, social inadequates and people with illnesses, mental and otherwise.......... send a PM to kmbrown111 and he, she or it will show you how sheer will power will overcome your problems! Don't be afraid! He / she / it has been there himself / herself / itself. Allah be praised! Oh sorry. Wrong thread. :lol:
kwbrown111
03-Sep-06, 23:49
wish i could do it with roll ups
"Ah, at last. Q.E.D.
You are completely, utterly and ignorantly wrong. Alcohol abusers may start by choosing to abuse alcohol.
Alcoholics have a genetic predisposition to it (fact), or have a genetic predisposition to be vulnerable to alcohol abuse. Dear me. And to think that in a democracy, you might be looking after patient welfare!
Bring forward the cattle wagons.............! "
kwbrown111, j4bberw0ck.....your not related are you?[disgust]
[lol]
kwbrown111
03-Sep-06, 23:52
are you saying it can't be done if you really want it. hey i,m no expert i just think it can be done
Well, well. Thank for letting us all know. So all those depressives, alcoholics, drug addicts, social inadequates and people with illnesses, mental and otherwise.......... send a PM to kmbrown111 and he, she or it will show you how sheer will power will overcome your problems! Don't be afraid! He / she / it has been there himself / herself / itself. Allah be praised! Oh sorry. Wrong thread. :lol:Just listen to yourself i'm haveing a good old giggle .
j4bberw0ck
03-Sep-06, 23:53
[quote=j4bberw0ck;129775][quote=angela5;129770]
maybe you should take heed of what you wrote in your location at the top right of your screen .
Oh jeez........
Benefits aren't a Caithness issue, icebox. Alcoholism isn't a Caithness issue, icebox. Stupidity isn't a Caithness issue, icebox. Do try to keep up!!
I'll leave you to your narrow prejudices and the next episode of "Little Britain".
Enjoy!
Why are you a fan :evil [lol]
j4bberw0ck
03-Sep-06, 23:56
Just listen to yourself i'm haveing a good old giggle .
Well, I guess at the last, it's the prerogative of the uncomprehending to laugh at the rest of world.
[quote=ice box;129782][quote=j4bberw0ck;129775]
Oh jeez........
Benefits aren't a Caithness issue, icebox. Alcoholism isn't a Caithness issue, icebox. Stupidity isn't a Caithness issue, icebox. Do try to keep up!!
Why is your quote (angela5) when icebox asked you that question??
kwbrown111
03-Sep-06, 23:56
and no angela5 no relation. the thread is starting to go off topic
[quote=j4bberw0ck;129775][quote=angela5;129770]
maybe you should take heed of what you wrote in your location at the top right of your screen .
confusing? originally posted by icebox, but quoted as me.:confused:
j4bberw0ck
03-Sep-06, 23:59
Why are you a fan
Good question........ answer, no. But it tells you everything you need to know about Britain in 2006........... and why we're dead in the water.:evil :lol:
[quote=ice box;129782][quote=j4bberw0ck;129775]
Oh jeez........
Benefits aren't a Caithness issue, icebox. Alcoholism isn't a Caithness issue, icebox. Stupidity isn't a Caithness issue, icebox. Do try to keep up!!no there issue all over the country but we were on about caithness untill you stuck your noise in please try and keep up :Razz
and no angela5 no relation. the thread is starting to go off topicyes i agree some people imagination runs wild.
j4bberw0ck
04-Sep-06, 00:01
[quote=j4bberw0ck;129797][quote=ice box;129782]
Why is your quote (angela5) when icebox asked you that question??
Why would I know? I just punched the "quote" button. The clever software (or incompetent use of it) did the rest.
Answer's the same, either way.
Well, I guess at the last, it's the prerogative of the uncomprehending to laugh at the rest of world.no just you .
j4bberw0ck
04-Sep-06, 00:10
Well, I think on that note, I have to go watch some paint dry somewhere. Icebox, Angela5, it was a pleasure. What a delight to know that in 2006, such understanding, intelligent and well-informed people are still to be found. Toodle-pip! :lol:
willowbankbear
04-Sep-06, 00:13
Well, I think on that note, I have to go watch some paint dry somewhere. Icebox, Angela5, it was a pleasure. What a delight to know that in 2006, such understanding, intelligent and well-informed people are still to be found. Toodle-pip! :lol:
I think somebody is in the huff:eek: What day does the dole in WK open?
Well, I think on that note, I have to go watch some paint dry somewhere. Icebox, Angela5, it was a pleasure. What a delight to know that in 2006, such understanding, intelligent and well-informed people are still to be found. Toodle-pip! :lol:
Could'nt have been that bad now, you stayed around long enough.;)
Night
Angela
Alcoholism as far as i was led to believe was an illness ( a very selfish illness) not a disease. A disease is classified as something that is infectious, you cant become an alcoholic by sitting in the company of an alcoholic, only by the consumption of alcohol. Alcoholism is an adiction and as with all adictions your body cant function correctly without the substance that your addicted to .(just ask someone who smokes the chances are the first thing they do when they get up in the morning is a cup o tea and a fag) My father was an alcoholic and lost his battle with his demon several years ago. I think the reason for the £40 p/w pay out is to pay for the booze that an alcoholic needs each day . An alcoholic needs booze and they run the real risk of having a seizure and dying without it.It costs the government more money to put an addict into rehab and its cheaper to give them an additional allowance for their addiction. In the grand scheme of things the government makes more money of the boozers of this country and the revenue generated from sales of alcohol is a lot bigger than the payout given to alcoholics. As for benefit cheats you could shop everyone of them tomorrow and reduce the social security bill and the government wouldn't reduce the tax burden on working people. Benefit fraud is wrong and so is the system that allows it to happen.
j4bberw0ck
04-Sep-06, 00:19
I think somebody is in the huff:eek:
Nahhhh. Just don't want to end up in org_jail............ and I can see that minds here are not going to get changed! But thank you for your concern. :lol:
j4bberw0ck
04-Sep-06, 00:21
Could'nt have been that bad now, you stayed around long enough.
Night
Angela
One can always hope that the lemming will screech to a halt at the top of the cliff and question why it's about to leap........:lol:;)
Hmm, j4bberw0ck, whilst your statements of fact concerning alcoholism may be strictly correct, I think you're being unnecessarily harsh on a lot of posters in this thread, and many of your comments are easily diagnosed as insults.
What I see is a number of individuals describing what they see and hear in their daily activities. It seems to me that they're all decent respectable people who work hard to support their families, but who genuinely believe that unemployed, alcoholic, disabled and/or dishonest people enjoy similar or better standards of living than they do. Wouldn't you be upset in that situation? Ok, so perhaps some of their claims are not quite right, and some of their opinions could be stated more precisely, but it's surely wrong (and also counterproductive) to rant at them for this.
I don't know what you do for a living, but I suspect that £30 a week isn't anywhere near as much to you or I as it is to most Weekers. The claim that alcoholics get £30 a week to buy drink doesn't bother me one iota because I wouldn't even notice if that amount was deducted from my salary. But not everyone is that fortunate. I would guess that £30 a week isn't much to you either (but please forgive me if I'm wrong.)
I've never met any of the people you're "debating" with, but I've seen their posts on the Org over the last six months or so, and I wouldn't insult any of them in the way you've just done. I think you're being very unfair.
I also think (at least) one of us is being very patronising and I sincerely hope it's not me.
No one forced them to start drinking in the first place!!!
I dislike paying taxes toward keeping scroungers or young mothers who view child bearing as a career move (the larger fault lies with government policies that do nothing to bring down teenage pregnancy here). However, to diminuish alcoholism to a statement like this shows that you know little about the disease it is. Do you also think that depressed people are sad because they want to be?
j4bberw0ck
04-Sep-06, 00:45
I've never met any of the people you're "debating" with, but I've seen their posts on the Org over the last six months or so, and I wouldn't insult any of them in the way you've just done. I think you're being very unfair.
OK, it's a fair cop.............. I apologise for insulting people here (which I did do, and worse, I knew I was doing it as I did it). I have to record an objection, though, to people being classified by illness, with some being "acceptable" and some being "unacceptable" according to whim.
Is there anything in the world worse than a reasonable moderator? :lol:
i was taken in to care when i was 7 years old because my parents were alcoholics,so i didnt realy get to know my parents as well i would have liked too. but when my dad died 6 years ago i took my mother back here to stay with my husband and i as there was no one else to look after her in alloa where she lived. my husband and i dont drink so when my mother came to live with us it was in the understanding that her drinking would stop which it did eventually.after talking to my mum it became clear that she had never realy been ill while she was on the drink but as soon as she stopped she started getting problems with ill health she was in and out of hospital with chest infections,was for ever catching colds,she developed dementia which the doctor said it was brought on by the years of alcohol abuse.it became clear to me that my mother was physicaly and mentaly abuse by my father, so she turned to the bottle and became an alcoholic.my father became an alcoholic when his mother died and he just could not come to terms with it.so maybe some people should stop and think before they open their mouths as to the reason why some people are what they are.whether alcoholisim is brougt on by mental or physical or many other reasons it is obviously an illness.
so maybe some people should stop and think before they open their mouths as to the reason why some people are what they are.
I have not really given a reason as to why one becomes an alcoholic. I'm stating it's every individual persons own choice to become one.
I have grown up with alcoholism in my family and it destroys lives, i will never agree that it is an illness.
It's personal choice. Personal choice to go down that road.
People work very hard honest livings to get by every week and disagree with the unemployed alcoholics who don't want help, but are happy enough to take £30 a week (tax payers money)to help fund their habit. :roll:
Goodness me - i have been away all weekend and find an epidemic of viciousness has arrived
Firstly most of you going on here about how people are getting benefits have no idea what people get, how much they are paid and what their circumstances are. You are making assumptions and you have no hard facts to base your information on. You dont know what health problems people have. You assume because they look healthy there is "nothing wrong with them" that is far from the truth in many cases. It is assumed in some cases people ae on benefits when they are not always - you dont have inside infomration about people's financial circumstances. In addition people who get cars through the Moability scheme have to pay for them. They dont get them Free they have to give the mobility rate of their benefit to pay for their car. They are leased or they can buy a car if they need to but its far from free.
Secondly People on disability benefits are there because their GPs have given their opinion that these people are not well enough to go to work. They are also examined by the DWP periodically and a decision is made that they are not fit for work. Alcoholism is an illness and how many of you have worked with an alcoholic and know how difficult it it or how many of you would employ a chronic alcoholic. All this carry on about they should go out and work doesnt make any sense. They are on benefits because they unfit for work. There are lots of different rates of disability benefits and my knowledge is likely to be a little out of date but I am sure that someone here can explain it properly. However no one gets £30 per week for being an alcoholic. There is not a £30 a week allowances for alcoholics - it doesnt work like that. I looked at the rates and you seem to be talking about a disability premium of £25 or so. That is paid to anyone who qualifies and not simply to Alcoholics.
This thread was about Benefit Fraud and that is a different issue. Fruad should be stamped out and tackled and those responsible punished but the VAST majority of people on benefits would rather not be there and would rather not be ill and would rather not be out of work and thats the truth of it.
Goodness me - i have been away all weekend and find an epidemic of viciousness has arrived
Firstly most of you going on here about how people are getting benefits have no idea what people get, how much they are paid and what their circumstances are. You are making assumptions and you have no hard facts to base your information on. You dont know what health problems people have. You assume because they look healthy there is "nothing wrong with them" that is far from the truth in many cases. It is assumed in some cases people ae on benefits when they are not always - you dont have inside infomration about people's financial circumstances. In addition people who get cars through the Moability scheme have to pay for them. They dont get them Free they have to give the mobility rate of their benefit to pay for their car. They are leased or they can buy a car if they need to but its far from free.
Secondly People on disability benefits are there because their GPs have given their opinion that these people are not well enough to go to work. They are also examined by the DWP periodically and a decision is made that they are not fit for work. Alcoholism is an illness and how many of you have worked with an alcoholic and know how difficult it it or how many of you would employ a chronic alcoholic. All this carry on about they should go out and work doesnt make any sense. They are on benefits because they unfit for work. There are lots of different rates of disability benefits and my knowledge is likely to be a little out of date but I am sure that someone here can explain it properly. However no one gets £30 per week for being an alcoholic. There is not a £30 a week allowances for alcoholics - it doesnt work like that. I looked at the rates and you seem to be talking about a disability premium of £25 or so. That is paid to anyone who qualifies and not simply to Alcoholics.
This thread was about Benefit Fraud and that is a different issue. Fruad should be stamped out and tackled and those responsible punished but the VAST majority of people on benefits would rather not be there and would rather not be ill and would rather not be out of work and thats the truth of it.
Once again Squidge, the voice of reason has arrived in the nick of time, you are some woman Squidge, fighting the "English" at the weekends and still having the time to come in to the Org, to give the true facts about an emotive subject.
The claims and counter claims that have been flying around this thread, were becoming very near to insults, and we do not need that in here.
This thread was about Benefit Fraud and that is a different issue. Fruad should be stamped out and tackled and those responsible punished but the VAST majority of people on benefits would rather not be there and would rather not be ill and would rather not be out of work and thats the truth of it. yes thats right its about benefit fraud but some people went way off topic and yes i know plenty of people who are fiddling the system coz wick is fill of scroungers. I know of one person who has never work a day in his life but yet he can go on a holiday abroad every year and brag about and yet you have the decent hard working man that cant even get a Saturday night out . I also know an alcoholic who is very fit to work but doesn't what has he get £46 week and it ain't Worth working it's a joke .
I dislike paying taxes toward keeping scroungers or young mothers who view child bearing as a career move (the larger fault lies with government policies that do nothing to bring down teenage pregnancy here). However, to diminish alcoholism to a statement like this shows that you know little about the disease it is. Do you also think that depressed people are sad because they want to be?
Ok Ju, maybe I don't enough about alcoholism. I'm not claiming to know everything about it. One of my family members was an alcoholic, I asked him years later why he started. He told me no one every forced him it was his choice, his addiction.
Firstly most of you going on here about how people are getting benefits have no idea what people get, how much they are paid and what their circumstances are. You are making assumptions and you have no hard facts to base your information on. You dont know what health problems people have. You assume because they look healthy there is "nothing wrong with them" that is far from the truth in many cases. It is assumed in some cases people ae on benefits when they are not always - you dont have inside infomration about people's financial circumstances. In addition people who get cars through the Moability scheme have to pay for them. They dont get them Free they have to give the mobility rate of their benefit to pay for their car. They are leased or they can buy a car if they need to but its far from free.
Secondly People on disability benefits are there because their GPs have given their opinion that these people are not well enough to go to work. They are also examined by the DWP periodically and a decision is made that they are not fit for work. Alcoholism is an illness and how many of you have worked with an alcoholic and know how difficult it it or how many of you would employ a chronic alcoholic. All this carry on about they should go out and work doesnt make any sense. They are on benefits because they unfit for work. There are lots of different rates of disability benefits and my knowledge is likely to be a little out of date but I am sure that someone here can explain it properly. However no one gets £30 per week for being an alcoholic. There is not a £30 a week allowances for alcoholics - it doesnt work like that. I looked at the rates and you seem to be talking about a disability premium of £25 or so. That is paid to anyone who qualifies and not simply to Alcoholics.
This thread was about Benefit Fraud and that is a different issue. Fruad should be stamped out and tackled and those responsible punished but the VAST majority of people on benefits would rather not be there and would rather not be ill and would rather not be out of work and thats the truth of it.
A close friend of mine has had a couple of vertebrae fused together with pins. So his doctor feels that he is in need of disability allowance. However, what his doctor doesn't know is that he lives a full life, he never drives, he cycles everywhere and does 4 arduous cycle holidays a year, last year he made Everest basecamp on his bicycle and this year he did the Alps. He does off road cycling where he has to lift his bike over gates and allsorts of similar activity, like rock climbing and sailing.
To be fair to him, he struggles when he lifts things in certain body positions. I often make fun of him as a scrounger and he takes it on the chin, so I guess you have a point, squidge.
And he is 62 years old!
I have a friend too Rheghead - surprising I know - She doesnt work hasnt done for ten years she lives in a council house and she drives a car provided for her by Motability. She has a disabled sticker and parks in a disabled space. She claims benefits which she used to cash at the post office - she now has it paid into an account.
However Jane also owns a house in Turkey which she visits a couple of times a year. she is fit healthy looking and tanned. She holidays abroad maybe three times a year, she has a nicely decorated house and she lives very nicely.
She was reported to The Benefits Agency Fraud people by a person who had seen her cash her Benefits book at the Post office and assumed that she was fit for work and her standard of living was so much better than theirs that somehow my friend must be "on the fiddle" or "scrounging". Pretty much the same opinion as some people here.
However Jane has Hepatitis C from an infected blood transfusion. This means she cant walk far and she struggles on a daily basis and is often in a lot of pain - hence the mobility benefits which she gives up to pay for her car. She got compensation for her illness with which she bought her house in turkey. The benefits she gets are contributory benefits which arent affected by her savings and which she gets because she worked and paid contributions before she was retired on ill health. She also gets a small pension from her ex employer She doesnt get any income based benefits and she pays her rent and her council tax for her council house.
The point is that we dont know what people's lives involve - you dont know and i dont know. At first glance Jane would appear to be one of the people the people that many have spoken about in such disparaging tones on this message board and those same people would have looked down their noses at her and labelled her a scrounger and they dont know squat about anything.
Buttercup, I have to put you right on a couple of points regarding the familly you have a grudge against. The old woman in question had when her family lived with her a 3 bedroomed house which when son went to prison she gave up and moved to a 1 bed pensioners house. this house had a coal fire and after a while of sickness it was discovered there was a problem with the flu and the woman was suffering from carbon monoxide poisining the only house avalable at the time was a three bed house which she was moved to.
her son came home from jail he had got married and son and wife moved in the house was signed on to his name and old woman got 1 bed house. old woman now very ill and is not able to be left for any lenght of time she is in hospitle a lot after all she is in her late 80s. I could be wrong but i dont think she has been in bingo for a very long time. son takes turns with his only sibling still alive to stay with mum over night so yes this does leave his three bed house empty at times and since you seem to know all about this familly you will know sons wife comes back as often as she leaves. and when she is away stays with her daughter and does not have another house.
I also think you may have your wires crossed a little with last names mum and son have a diferent name so that kind a puts a spanner in the works as far as if your names right you get what you want.
Buttercup
04-Sep-06, 15:23
Buttercup, I have to put you right on a couple of points regarding the familly you have a grudge against. The old woman in question had when her family lived with her a 3 bedroomed house which when son went to prison she gave up and moved to a 1 bed pensioners house. this house had a coal fire and after a while of sickness it was discovered there was a problem with the flu and the woman was suffering from carbon monoxide poisining the only house avalable at the time was a three bed house which she was moved to.
her son came home from jail he had got married and son and wife moved in the house was signed on to his name and old woman got 1 bed house. old woman now very ill and is not able to be left for any lenght of time she is in hospitle a lot after all she is in her late 80s. I could be wrong but i dont think she has been in bingo for a very long time. son takes turns with his only sibling still alive to stay with mum over night so yes this does leave his three bed house empty at times and since you seem to know all about this familly you will know sons wife comes back as often as she leaves. and when she is away stays with her daughter and does not have another house.
I also think you may have your wires crossed a little with last names mum and son have a diferent name so that kind a puts a spanner in the works as far as if your names right you get what you want.
Firstly I want to say I do not have a “grudge” against any family, I was just pointing out how some people can manage to get council houses at the drop of a hat. Secondly, we must be talking about different people, as the facts don’t match. The woman I was referring to did have a 3 roomed house while her family stayed with her but this was many years ago. Since then she has had a 2 roomed and a 1 roomed and then back to a 3 roomed , and as I said she was living alone all the time. The son in question had a house of his own which, I presume went back to the council when he went away.
you can report through the internet https://secure.dwp.gov.uk/benefitfraud/
and you dont have to leave your name!!
Sam....To your bad rep you left me and the big long comment! Could'nt you have just said it on the forum? why hide your opinion?:roll:
Firstly. I stand by what i've said, Alcoholics choose to go down that path they are not forced. Same applies to smokers and druggies.
hi buttercup, we are talking about the same person, as some of your points ie sons wife defending him in court, was right. but the son never had his own house before he went to jail it was his wifes house he lived in and this was before they were married. they got married when he was in jail his wife gave her house up to move in with motherinlaw when she first took ill.
I take it from your knowledge that you live close by, if so you would be aware that the 3 bed bungalow in the corner is occupied by a single woman and the house next door to the son is occupied by a married man who,s wife has her own council house but lives there most of the time, i am not a great fan of the son but there is a lot worse going on than his house being empty while he looks after his sick mother.and i think you will find that sons name closes more doors than it opens, it is comments like yours that fuel the predudices that are already rife in caithness when it comes to a certain sir name
Sam....To your bad rep you left me and the big long comment! Could'nt you have just said it on the forum? why hide your opinion?:roll:
Firstly. I stand by what i've said, Alcoholics choose to go down that path they are not forced. Same applies to smokers and druggies.
no angela 5 i am not hiding my opinion.
i feel that you were bang out of order to say that someone chooses to be an alchoholic, they dont wake up one day and say oh i think i'll become an alchoholic.
as i said it is an addiction just as hard or even harder for some to give up as fags,drugs, gambling & other addictions, you come on here with your goody two shoe's attitude slag people off for being an alchoholic then make jokes at their expence.
you dont seem to give a damn for other people's feelings, and you dont like it when you get bad rep cos someone else dares to have a different opinion to you.
this thread was about benefit fraud and yet you saw fit to try and change the topic why????
maybe you should skulk off for another few months if you dont like the fact that not everyone thinks you are so righteous
there you wanted my opinion out in the open there it is[evil]
A BARRY mother who fraudulently claimed more than £60,000 in benefits was jailed for ten months last week.
Julie Trezise, aged 44, of North Walk, wept at Cardiff crown court while Judge Christopher-Llewellyn-Jones, QC, sentenced her for "systematically defrauding the benefits system".
Between September 1997 and March 2005, Trezise claimed £61,122.42 and admitted 12 charges relating to the fraud.
http://adsadmin.newsquest.co.uk/RealMedia/ads/Creatives/default/empty.gif (http://adsadmin.newsquest.co.uk/RealMedia/ads/click_lx.ads/www.barryanddistrictnews.co.uk/display.var.892600.0.mother_locked_up_for_benefits _fraud.php/281713536/Frame2/default/empty.gif/35313964333136623434666338366430)
The court was told by prosecuting barrister Sara Lambert that Trezise had been claiming income support, council tax benefit and housing benefit for the last seven-and-a-half years.
She said: "She was being paid through weekly orders to cash at the post office on the grounds she was a single parent and not working, but she was living with a partner.
"The total she received in income support, council tax and rent was £61,122.42."
The court heard how Trezise's partner, Paul Jenkins, had been living with her while she claimed.
Investigators discovered that the address given on Mr Jenkins' bank account and their child's birth certificate was the same as Trezise's and changed accordingly when she moved from Jenner Road to her present address.
Speaking in her defence, barrister Marian Bennett told the court that Trezise had expressed remorse.
She said: "Although she was living with her partner Mr Jenkins, this was not an easy relationship and it was not uncommon for Mr Jenkins to move out for periods of time.
"She accepts that these are serious offences made serious by the length of time and the amount of money taken and accepts that it wasn't her money to take."
Sentencing her to ten months imprisonment, the judge said this was not a victimless crime because of the cost to the taxpayer.
He said: "This is a grave offence and it is an offence that I cannot deal with other than a custodial sentence.
"You are 44 years old and you have a son. Inevitably, I feel for him as you do. The type of sentence normally for this amount of money is between 18 months and two years, but there are matters relating to your family situation that I have taken into account."
The government's anti-fraud minister, James Plaskitt, said: "This is an excellent example of how we are cracking down on all benefit fraud cheats in Wales.
"People who continue to claim benefits illegally will be tracked down, caught and prosecuted. Our investigators have more powers than ever before - if benefit fraud is suspected we can check bank statements, household bills and, if necessary, carry out surveillance.
"These people are stealing money from the taxpayer, money that could be better spent on schools and hospitals.
"Calls to the National Benefit Fraud Hotline show how strong the support for our campaign is. In 2005-06, more than 200,000 calls were received, equating to nearly 547 calls every day. If you suspect anyone of benefit fraud please call 0800 854440."
mostlyharmless
04-Sep-06, 21:19
I worked for several years[more than I care to remember] with those who'd lost jobs or never had one and 99% were at some point honestly looking as the months went by and depression and despair set in that began to slow down.Eventually it would stop and those individuals self respect would disappear.
Those individuals would sometimes recover, some friend would help them, they would help themselves and occassionally we would help them.
Some individuals never recovered...
A large stick would eventually appear instead of the helping hand, some would eventually be scared into doing anything to work, some would do anything to avoid it... these often turned to many of the habits already described and worse .Some turned to burglary and worse!
Some with no esteem left would sell themselves or worse.
The 1% would lie and cheat as best they could and you couldn't stop them
and others would tell you straight and do it 'I'll burgal its less hassle'
So Taxes go for what benefits or police forces or national health sadly it comes around .
Happily I don't work there now and to put another thought forward maybe there should be a standard living rate paid to everyone [with some control of course] those that want to earn more can and those that don't can exist and not add to the prisons and hospitals of the country.
Mmm good thing I don't work there now...
no angela 5 i am not hiding my opinion.
i feel that you were bang out of order to say that someone chooses to be an alchoholic, they dont wake up one day and say oh i think i'll become an alchoholic.
as i said it is an addiction just as hard or even harder for some to give up as fags,drugs, gambling & other addictions, you come on here with your goody two shoe's attitude slag people off for being an alchoholic then make jokes at their expence.
you dont seem to give a damn for other people's feelings, and you dont like it when you get bad rep cos someone else dares to have a different opinion to you.
this thread was about benefit fraud and yet you saw fit to try and change the topic why????
maybe you should skulk off for another few months if you dont like the fact that not everyone thinks you are so righteous
there you wanted my opinion out in the open there it is[evil]
For what it's worth sam, i think you are the one who is bang out of order! [disgust] Angela has as much right to voice her opinion on the subject as anyone else.
Of course they dont wake up one day and say oh i think i'll become an alchoholic. But no one forces them to start drink to the extent that they can't live without drink. They choose to pick up the bottle and drink it, they don't have someone else pouring the drink down there throats.
by the way people can stop posting for a while as they may have other commitments, you can't tell anyone to sculk off again. Thats terrible.
For what it's worth sam, i think you are the one who is bang out of order! [disgust] Angela has as much right to voice her opinion on the subject as anyone else.
Of course they dont wake up one day and say oh i think i'll become an alchoholic. But no one forces them to start drink to the extent that they can't live without drink. They choose to pick up the bottle and drink it, they don't have someone else pouring the drink down there throats.Well said krieve couldn't put it better myself . Yes you all say it's a illness yes a selfinflicked illness no one holds a gun to there head .
pultneytooner
04-Sep-06, 22:25
People suffer alchoholism for many reasons, none of them by choice. Okay, nobody forced them to take that first drink or the subsequent others but when it becomes an addiction they have to have that drink, there is no choice in the matter.
Whether alcoholism is an illness or not is of little consequence. Anyone who has to deal with a performing alcoholic will know the difficulties associated with that relationship.
By a rule, the performing alcoholic is usually selfish, arrogant and blind to any other need than the need for the next hit. I imagine any addiction will be the same, and the truth is, more people are addicted to the most innocuous things than they would care to admit. Anything from eating or not eating to Caithness.org. I know being addicted to caithness.org disna have the same side effects as alcohol, but I'll bet theres a few benefit cheats on the org.
Some of the peole being accused of benefit fraud are also accussed of being alkies. Most performing alkies I know tend to work for their money.
Theres a few for sure but often people who drink a lot and cheat the system are, IMO, not always alcoholics.
Theres a psychological element to alcoholism and if you havnt got it, even though you may drink yourself to death, its not necessarily you were an alcoholic.
Having said that, I'm inclined to agree with Angela that alcoholics always have a choice. It may take a long time to become aware of that choice though. Thats the true nature of alcoholism.
tiggertoo
04-Sep-06, 23:45
why do u think alcies r givin extra money. The government make alot of money from the sale of alcahol which is a drug and a dangerous one at that, there are no warning signs on alcahol products warning of health risks like with cigarettes nowadays as people tried suing cigarette companys and the government so it is probably cheaper for the government to give alcies an extra 30 quid to keep them quiet and hope they drink themselves into a grave rather than the risk of being sued for not warning folk o the dangers. why is alcahol legal anaway it causes problems everywhere,most crime is caused under the influance, just read the court cases in the groat, marriage breakups, domestic violence theres always fighting at bars cause folk r tanked up on drink but wouldnt do when sober, you dont here of much trouble from cannibis smokers and thats illegal
Just had an interesting read on the Baldwin Research Institute.
Anyone that wants the link pm me.
In conclusion, after reviewing the available research from both sides of the debate, the belief in the disease of alcoholism, creates the existence of the disease. Organizations and institutions that promote the disease concept are, in many cases, doing irreparable harm to the individual and performing a disservice to the population as a whole. Geneticists are aware that a predisposition does not dictate subsequent behavior, and treatment professionals are aware that the programs they offer, fail. It is an outright injustice when faced with the facts. Stripping human beings of their ability to choose is damaging, whereas giving them back the power of their own volition is essential for recovery. Alcoholism is a choice, not a disease.
why is it that some people feel the need to keep on changing the topic of this thread to alcoholism???? even when it was back on track in they come again and change it back to alcoholism
it was started about benefit fraud, about people who are caught red handed, not about people who are on disablilty with good reason but those who claim when they are fit and well and about people who actually choose not to work cos they cant be bothered and believe me i have heard plenty of people say why should i work i am better of on the dole, so please if you want to discuss alcoholism or any other topic not related to this then why not start your own thread[evil]
connieb19
05-Sep-06, 08:27
IMO I rekon it's easy for folk to say a alcoholic chooses to drink, yes, the probably do, no-one forces it down their throat BUT I can bet you anything, the person dosn't choose the circustances that drove them to drink.
There's a lot who drink just for the sake of drinking and because they enjoy it, but what about the people who have had something awful happen in their lives and know no other way out and take the drink to blank things out?
Maybe if they didn't take the drink they could pack themselves with anti depressants, going about like zombies, would this be ok because the doctor prescribed it? or would they be classed as wasters too?
If someone can say in all honesty that no matter what happens in their lives, no matter how bad it ever got, that they would never ever have an addiction to anything, then they are very lucky, lets hope they never have any tragedy in their life which might make them think differently. I think it could happen to anyone.
exactly connie, i know a couple who lost their only child through cot death the woman shut hersel off from everything and everyone her husband started to drink to blot out the pain. it wasnt long before it got a grip and he couldnt give it up they lost everything got divorced he ended up living in a hostel for the homeless and on benefits yes he got extra money, because he was unfit to work, eventually he lost his life to drink before he even reached his late 20's.
so people should stop and think before they start pointing the finger[disgust]
Whether alcoholism is an illness or not is of little consequence. Anyone who has to deal with a performing alcoholic will know the difficulties associated with that relationship.
By a rule, the performing alcoholic is usually selfish, arrogant and blind to any other need than the need for the next hit. I imagine any addiction will be the same, and the truth is, more people are addicted to the most innocuous things than they would care to admit. Anything from eating or not eating to Caithness.org. I know being addicted to caithness.org disna have the same side effects as alcohol, but I'll bet theres a few benefit cheats on the org.
Some of the peole being accused of benefit fraud are also accussed of being alkies. Most performing alkies I know tend to work for their money.
Theres a few for sure but often people who drink a lot and cheat the system are, IMO, not always alcoholics.
Theres a psychological element to alcoholism and if you havnt got it, even though you may drink yourself to death, its not necessarily you were an alcoholic.
Having said that, I'm inclined to agree with Angela that alcoholics always have a choice. It may take a long time to become aware of that choice though. Thats the true nature of alcoholism.
I agree with what you're saying, but I still don't think they should be paid to continue their addiction. They should be offered treatment and counciling and help towards that - not encouragement to carry on.
exactly connie, i know a couple who lost their only child through cot death the woman shut hersel off from everything and everyone her husband started to drink to blot out the pain. it wasnt long before it got a grip and he couldnt give it up they lost everything got divorced he ended up living in a hostel for the homeless and on benefits yes he got extra money, because he was unfit to work, eventually he lost his life to drink before he even reached his late 20's.
so people should stop and think before they start pointing the finger[disgust]
Although I've every sympathy for the above situation, I do not agree that this would cause the alcoholism. I'm thinking of the poor woman who not only lost her baby, but got no support from her husband who undoubtedly added to her pain through his actions.
It is highly likely that the man would have found a reason to drink anyway.
IMO I rekon it's easy for folk to say a alcoholic chooses to drink, yes, the probably do, no-one forces it down their throat BUT I can bet you anything, the person dosn't choose the circustances that drove them to drink.
There's a lot who drink just for the sake of drinking and because they enjoy it, but what about the people who have had something awful happen in their lives and know no other way out and take the drink to blank things out?
Maybe if they didn't take the drink they could pack themselves with anti depressants, going about like zombies, would this be ok because the doctor prescribed it? or would they be classed as wasters too?
If someone can say in all honesty that no matter what happens in their lives, no matter how bad it ever got, that they would never ever have an addiction to anything, then they are very lucky, lets hope they never have any tragedy in their life which might make them think differently. I think it could happen to anyone.
Connie, we all experience death of a loved one, stress, circumstances that are sometimes unbearable to deal with. Blanking it out through drink only causes more pain, it does not make the suffering go away. I have yet to meet a drinker who has found the answer at the bottom of their glass.
I have suffered stress, depression and found i am a strong person who did'nt need to turn to alcohol or prescribed drugs. Alcohol is an excuse for the weak.
I am not however, classing anyone on a prescribed drug a waster.
Just had an interesting read on the Baldwin Research Institute.
Anyone that wants the link pm me.
In conclusion, after reviewing the available research from both sides of the debate, the belief in the disease of alcoholism, creates the existence of the disease. Organizations and institutions that promote the disease concept are, in many cases, doing irreparable harm to the individual and performing a disservice to the population as a whole. Geneticists are aware that a predisposition does not dictate subsequent behavior, and treatment professionals are aware that the programs they offer, fail. It is an outright injustice when faced with the facts. Stripping human beings of their ability to choose is damaging, whereas giving them back the power of their own volition is essential for recovery. Alcoholism is a choice, not a disease.
Sam,When a fact is displayed in front of you, silence is upon us.[lol]
Opinion is divided as to whether Alcoholism is a disease. Whether it is an illness or not, whether people are genetically pre disposed to addiction or not it is still a terrible affliction. It isnt always as simple as just drinking too much, there are many hidden and underlying reasons why alcoholics drink. Sometimes alcoholics will continue to drink until these issues are addressed.
I have been called sanctimonious on this board once or twice now but to my mind there is nothing more sanctimonious than those people who look down on others because they are weaker, less able to cope and find life a struggle and therefore turn to some thing to dull the pain. I hope you never have to find out that you arent as strong as you thought because getting better often involves accepting you cant cope and this is easier if you dont set yourself up as some sort of paragon of strength in the first place
Lolabelle
05-Sep-06, 12:14
Since that effort clearly went waaaaay over your head, I'll leave you to your narrow prejudices and the next episode of "Little Britain".
Enjoy! ;)
I love "Little Britain", best show on telly! ;)
rockchick
05-Sep-06, 12:39
In my experience there are two types of alcoholism, and I believe they are similar to the two main types of diabetes. One is where, through genetics or other such physical predispositions, the body simply doesn't process alcohol the way the average person does. Native North Americans, as a group, have this affliction: they simply can't drink without getting drunk. You will hear some alcoholics state that they were like that from the first drink they took, and the only choice they have with respect to their condition is to not take any drink at all.
The other type is brought on by misuse of the substance, where you drink so much that your body can't function without it. Where the fine line is between heavy drinker and alcoholic is, I don't know, but there is one. This may be the psychological link that someone else mentioned in this thread.
On a secondary note, I have to laugh at certain individuals getting up on their high horses about addictions and having choices, when these people have over 2500 postings in less than 10 months. Looks like internet addiction to me!!! Maybe they should go cold turkey, get off line, and try to break the internet-addiction cycle, perhaps serving coffee at the local AA meeting if they want to know more about true addiction and how difficult it can be to shake it.
Native North Americans, as a group, have this affliction: they simply can't drink without getting drunk. You will hear some alcoholics state that they were like that from the first drink they took, and the only choice they have with respect to their condition is to not take any drink at all.
Alcohol Study in North Americans. (http://wch.uhs.wisc.edu/13-Eval/Tools/PDF-Documents/Indian%20health%20alcohol%20WI.pdf#search=%22myths %20north%20american%20indians%20alcohol%22)
Summary
The report dispels some myths about alcohol abuse among American Indians. Metabolism of alcohol
among all people groups, whether Caucasian, African American, Asian American, Latino, or American
Indian, is more related to prior drinking history and body weight than race or ethnicity. Rates of alcohol
problems among American Indians are influenced by the same factors as other people groups. These
factors include genetics, age, social norms and laws, social involvement, economics, mental health,
emotional pain or trauma, self-esteem, and environment. Substance abuse is not caused by race
pultneytooner
05-Sep-06, 13:13
Although I've every sympathy for the above situation, I do not agree that this would cause the alcoholism. I'm thinking of the poor woman who not only lost her baby, but got no support from her husband who undoubtedly added to her pain through his actions.
It is highly likely that the man would have found a reason to drink anyway.
The wife needed support, yes, I agree, but who was there for the husband or are we men supposed to suffer in silence, good old british stiff upper lip and all that.
pultneytooner
05-Sep-06, 13:20
Alcohol Study in North Americans. (http://wch.uhs.wisc.edu/13-Eval/Tools/PDF-Documents/Indian%20health%20alcohol%20WI.pdf#search=%22myths %20north%20american%20indians%20alcohol%22)
Summary
The report dispels some myths about alcohol abuse among American Indians. Metabolism of alcohol
among all people groups, whether Caucasian, African American, Asian American, Latino, or American
Indian, is more related to prior drinking history and body weight than race or ethnicity. Rates of alcohol
problems among American Indians are influenced by the same factors as other people groups. These
factors include genetics, age, social norms and laws, social involvement, economics, mental health,
emotional pain or trauma, self-esteem, and environment. Substance abuse is not caused by race
You can see this myth played out by charles hawtrey as Chief Big Heap in carry on cowboy just another stereotype i'm afraid.
The wife needed support, yes, I agree, but who was there for the husband or are we men supposed to suffer in silence, good old british stiff upper lip and all that.
I said nothing about suffering in silence. Just that alcohol is not the answer.
pultneytooner
05-Sep-06, 13:30
I said nothing about suffering in silence. Just that alcohol is not the answer.
Alchohol never is but sometimes it seems that way just to blot out the pain.
On a secondary note, I have to laugh at certain individuals getting up on their high horses about addictions and having choices, when these people have over 2500 postings in less than 10 months. Looks like internet addiction to me!!! Maybe they should go cold turkey, get off line, and try to break the internet-addiction cycle, perhaps serving coffee at the local AA meeting if they want to know more about true addiction and how difficult it can be to shake it.
Why do people feel the need to tell other members to get off the org for giving their opinion? :roll:
why is it that some people feel the need to keep on changing the topic of this thread to alcoholism???? even when it was back on track in they come again and change it back to alcoholism
it was started about benefit fraud, about people who are caught red handed, not about people who are on disablilty with good reason but those who claim when they are fit and well and about people who actually choose not to work cos they cant be bothered and believe me i have heard plenty of people say why should i work i am better of on the dole, so please if you want to discuss alcoholism or any other topic not related to this then why not start your own thread[evil]
Glad they listen to you.
rockchick
05-Sep-06, 19:23
Why do people feel the need to tell other members to get off the org for giving their opinion? :roll:
Angela5, I didn't tell people to get off the org per se, I suggested that there are other forms of addiction other than alcoholism that people on here might be suffering, internet addiction being one of them. Trying to break the habit of living one's life over the internet can be very difficult, with similar withdrawal symptoms as trying to quit a physical addiction such as smoking or drinking.
Sam,When a fact is displayed in front of you, silence is upon us.[lol]
so you think silnence is upon you???????
actually krieve some of us do actually have jobs to go to and a life outside of the org.
as for some so called facts that angela5 got off of the internet, well i tend not to take everything thats on the internet as gospel, personally i prefer to take my facts from real life experience's and situations of people who have been through it,not something that someone has written just because they have a degree.
you also stated in a previous post that i was the one out of order for what i said to angela 5 well i dont find it in the least amusing to make jokes of others misfortunes even if they are alcoholics, they are people with feelings to you know.
well if you had read previous posts you would know that angela5 asked me to put my opinion on the forum and not hide it, so that is exactly what i did, only for her to then bombard me with p.m's giving her opinion which i am sure she wouldnt like if i were to put all the p.m's on the thread for others to judge for themselves.
its funny to, how the very same people who are making an issue over my points are the ones who left me good rep, wonder why that is>
like i have said already this thread is about benefit fraud not alcoholics but yet it keeps going back to it makes me wonder why??[disgust]
rockchick
05-Sep-06, 19:31
Alcohol Study in North Americans. (http://wch.uhs.wisc.edu/13-Eval/Tools/PDF-Documents/Indian%20health%20alcohol%20WI.pdf#search=%22myths %20north%20american%20indians%20alcohol%22)
Summary
The report dispels some myths about alcohol abuse among American Indians. Metabolism of alcohol
among all people groups, whether Caucasian, African American, Asian American, Latino, or American
Indian, is more related to prior drinking history and body weight than race or ethnicity. Rates of alcohol
problems among American Indians are influenced by the same factors as other people groups. These
factors include genetics, age, social norms and laws, social involvement, economics, mental health,
emotional pain or trauma, self-esteem, and environment. Substance abuse is not caused by race
Having read the study, Rheghead, the authors don't actually offer any proof or reference any scientific study for these claims; they expect the reader to "dispel the myth" on their word. In the same paper, they do however refer to four previous studies, in Graves 1967, Caetano (1983), Jessors (1978) and Patrie (1979) that found higher than average rates of alcohol-related problems in among American Indians compared to caucasians. So, not sure where they're getting the other facts.
My own experience, albeit anecdotal rather than scientific, growing up close to an "Indian" reservation, was that they were certainly more publicly drunk than non-indian people. I never met a single one that could hold their liquor once they started drinking. Anyways, I'll concede the point, as it's not really worth arguing about!
[quote=rockchick;130411]
these people have over 2500 postings in less than 10 months.
EH! so. :roll:
Looks like internet addiction to me!!!
Your opinion. :roll:
get off line, [quote]
EEK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am giving my opinion on this subject, something everyone is entitled to do.
I don't expect everyone to agree with my opinion, by all means give your own. But to suggest to someone to "get off line" is uncalled for.
Although I've every sympathy for the above situation, I do not agree that this would cause the alcoholism. I'm thinking of the poor woman who not only lost her baby, but got no support from her husband who undoubtedly added to her pain through his actions.
It is highly likely that the man would have found a reason to drink anyway.
i actually knew these people and saw what they went through, until they lost their child none of them drank not even the odd one, the woman shut her husband out and neither he nor anyone could get through to her she eventaully ended up having a break down and as pointed out by pultneytooner what was the husband supposed to do hide his feelings.
No one can stand on judgement of these people, you dont know how you would react to a situation like that anymore that anyone else myself included.
you can only, like to think you wouldnt turn to drink to blot out the pain.
when someone starts to drink the last thing on there mind is that they wil become an alcoholic
Alchohol never is but sometimes it seems that way just to blot out the pain.
"Here's to alcohol, the cause of, and solution to, all life's problems"
Homer Simpson
well if you had read previous posts you would know that angela5 asked me to put my opinion on the forum and not hide it, so that is exactly what i did, only for her to then bombard me with p.m's giving her opinion which i am sure she wouldnt like if i were to put all the p.m's on the thread for others to judge for themselves.
I explained my opinion on alcoholism in a pm to you sam. It is called a private message.
Private! It contained things about my family, so for that reason i'd prefer my pm to remain private.
Although everyone is free to do as they wish. I would read the rules about making private messages public though.
If you need my pm judged, i'm sure you can forward it onto Niall Fernie.
Once again, I think this thread started off as a serious issue "Benifit Fraud", but it has now turned into a name calling and accusing, "you said this, I said that", Sam started this thread as a concerned Orger, about the amount of Benifit Fraud being committed, nothing more, nothing less.
Wick is not alone in fraudsters, come to the big city and see the claimants queueing up at No 44 York Place, swilling down Carlsberg Special and Buckie before going into at Doc for an assesment, trying to claim they are alcoholic, they are no more acoholic than I am, just lazy shiftless never want to work and never will, and they expect the medical staff to pay their taxis home, and fly into a rage when given a chitty to get a taxi at you and I's expense, they wanted CASH, not a chit. .......Rant over
i'm sure i can to angela, but i have no intentions of putting them on the forum as you would know had you read it right.
as for you saying you gave your opinion in a p.m it was 4 actually lol
rockchick
05-Sep-06, 19:52
[quote=rockchick;130411]
these people have over 2500 postings in less than 10 months.
EH! so. :roll:
Looks like internet addiction to me!!!
Your opinion. :roll:
get off line, [quote]
EEK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am giving my opinion on this subject, something everyone is entitled to do.
I don't expect everyone to agree with my opinion, by all means give your own. But to suggest to someone to "get off line" is uncalled for.
<take deep breath>
Right...if you ARE suffering from internet addiction, the only way to break the cycle would be to get off the internet, i.e. "get off line"...this would be the addicts method of using their power of choice to stop the addiction.
This was NOT intended as asking anyone to not air their opinions, only as another way of looking at addiction.
<exhale...and duck!>
Once again, I think this thread started off as a serious issue "Benifit Fraud", but it has now turned into a name calling and accusing, "you said this, I said that", Sam started this thread as a concerned Orger, about the amount of Benifit Fraud being committed, nothing more, nothing less.
Wick is not alone in fraudsters, come to the big city and see the claimants queueing up at No 44 York Place, swilling down Carlsberg Special and Buckie before going into at Doc for an assesment, trying to claim they are alcoholic, they are no more acoholic than I am, just lazy shiftless never want to work and never will, and they expect the medical staff to pay their taxis home, and fly into a rage when given a chitty to get a taxi at you and I's expense, they wanted CASH, not a chit. .......Rant over
thankyou golach, i get so fedup with people changing the topic dont see why they cant just start there own thread about alcoholics
Cheryl, Macclesfield, appeared in Macclesfield Magistrates Court on 23 March 2006. She pleaded guilty to two counts of Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit Fraud. Miss Hodgson claimed benefit based on the fact that she was in receipt of Income Support and was not working. It was discovered that she had in fact been working since the start of her claim.
The overpayment of benefit totalled £5125.56. Miss Hodgson was sentenced to 150 hour Community Punishment Order and was ordered to pay £100 per month compensation to the Council.
Paula, Wilmslow, appeared in Macclesfield Magistrates Court on 21 April 2006. She pleaded guilty to two counts of Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit Fraud. Miss Harris had claimed benefit based on her being a single parent working part time. It was discovered that she had been promoted and her hours and wages had increased considerably. Miss Harris had failed to notify the Council of this change in her circumstances.
The overpayment of benefit totalled £2825.74. Miss Harris was sentenced to 40 hour Community Punishment Order and was ordered to pay £381.03 court costs.
Jack, High Legh, appeared in Macclesfield Magistrates Court on 10 February 2006. He pleaded guilty to 21 offences of Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit Fraud. Mr Leech failed to declare that his son was his Landlord and also that he worked doing gardening and driving work. Mr Leech’s wife then moved back in with him, which he also failed to declare.
The overpayment totalled £19684. Mr Leech was sentenced to 28 days custody. An appeal was then submitted against the sentence. Mr Leech then attended Chester Crown Court on 8 March 2006. On appeal the sentence was reduced to 28-day custodial sentence suspended for two years. His age, health and the fact that he had repaid the overpayment was taken into account. He was ordered to pay £500 court costs.
glad to see you have finally realised its about benefit fraud:D
glad to see you have finally realised its about benefit fraud:D
Yes i always have done,seeing as i was'nt the one to go off the topic first in the beginning.
I won't make a reply to the pm incase i get accused of bombarding.;)
whatever ,but i think we both know different :lol:
I damaged my car one-time and the insurance company supplied me with one until my own one was fixed. on both sides of that car in bold letters was, Hired Car.
Why can't they do that with disability cars? like, This person driving claims to have a disability, if you know different. Shop them.[lol]
why should a person be "labelled" because they are disabled. They get a mobility car if they need one if they are on dissability pension and it costs them £42 a week. It is veryhard to get mobility allowance in order to get a mobility car, rules are very strict.People may look in perfect health to you when you see them with a blue disabled badge or mobility car, but how do you know they are not dying of heart disease or have had open heart surgery, or have kidney failure and are awaiting a transplant, or have no legs and need a car to get about. you see them but you dont know they have these conditions. I know of several, i know people who walk without sticks but have no legs. Im sure these people must envy you because you have your health. they would give anything to have theirhealth and their old jobs back and not have to rely on the state. they are not scroungers.
Its terrible for you to say the car should have a label saying this person driving claims to have a disability.
They wouldnt have the car without thorough medical check ups and their gps report and another doctors report, who has never met the patient before.
this really is a case of discrimination and is not nice at all.
What gets me mad is the people who get disability cars and there is not a thing wrong with them.[disgust] I have even heard of some people getting the cars then trying to sell the car!!! [mad]
People cannot get a dissability car unless they are disabled. they pay £42 per week to lease the car on a 3 yearly basis and cannot sell it. they can also buy a secondhand car with their mobility allowance but cannot sell it, as they are paying for it weekly.their mobility allowance is handed over to the garage.
why should a person be "labelled" because they are disabled. They get a mobility car if they need one if they are on dissability pension and it costs them £42 a week. It is veryhard to get mobility allowance in order to get a mobility car, rules are very strict.People may look in perfect health to you when you see them with a blue disabled badge or mobility car, but how do you know they are not dying of heart disease or have had open heart surgery, or have kidney failure and are awaiting a transplant, or have no legs and need a car to get about. you see them but you dont know they have these conditions. I know of several, i know people who walk without sticks but have no legs. Im sure these people must envy you because you have your health. they would give anything to have theirhealth and their old jobs back and not have to rely on the state. they are not scroungers.
Its terrible for you to say the car should have a label saying this person driving claims to have a disability.
They wouldnt have the car without thorough medical check ups and their gps report and another doctors report, who has never met the patient before.
this really is a case of discrimination and is not nice at all.
There is Genuine people fran and there is benefit cheats who know how to milk the system.
This is a wee story I have told before.
Two neighbours; one is constantly complaining about the other being "disabled" as she has seen her out in the garden and once she even bent down to pick out a weed.
She sneered at the "disabled" one for getting a motorised wheelchair just to go a wee bit up the road each day. "There is nothing wrong with her!"
The "disabled" one died a few months later!
I know this to be true; I heard it all.
I know more but it makes me sad to dwell on them.
Heres another wee theory to get the thread back on topic.
Some forms of benefit fraud are just as much symptoms of an illness, as alcoholism is to an alcoholic.
i actually knew these people and saw what they went through, until they lost their child none of them drank not even the odd one, the woman shut her husband out and neither he nor anyone could get through to her she eventaully ended up having a break down and as pointed out by pultneytooner what was the husband supposed to do hide his feelings.
No one can stand on judgement of these people, you dont know how you would react to a situation like that anymore that anyone else myself included.
you can only, like to think you wouldnt turn to drink to blot out the pain.
when someone starts to drink the last thing on there mind is that they wil become an alcoholic
If you knew me, you would know that I know exactly how I would react in a situation like that. I have been there more times than is fair in one lifetime.
And for the record, i do not stand in judgement.
Heres another wee theory to get the thread back on topic.
Some forms of benefit fraud are just as much symptoms of an illness, as alcoholism is to an alcoholic.Gleeber, it's scary when you post exactly what I'm thinking. :eek:
And it happens sooooo often...
I think the English language needs a word other than "illness" to describe alcoholism. It may be an illness in some sense, but the connotations are all wrong. "Dependency" or "addiction" are perhaps better because it's hard to deny there's some element of choice involved. Even those who claim it's an illness will surely agree that alcoholism is a very different beast from (say) cancer or heart disease. Well, those are my current thoughts, but I'm wide open to alternative views.
As gleeber says, benefit fraud involves similar dependencies. Yes, I know it's also blatant dishonesty, theft even, but there are surely some similarities.
Gleeber, it's scary when you post exactly what I'm thinking. :eek:
And it happens sooooo often...
I think the English language needs a word other than "illness" to describe alcoholism. It may be an illness in some sense, but the connotations are all wrong. "Dependency" or "addiction" are perhaps better because it's hard to deny there's some element of choice involved. Even those who claim it's an illness will surely agree that alcoholism is a very different beast from (say) cancer or heart disease. Well, those are my current thoughts, but I'm wide open to alternative views.
As gleeber says, benefit fraud involves similar dependencies. Yes, I know it's also blatant dishonesty, theft even, but there are surely some similarities.
I'm with you guys on that one.
I knew someone that was bragging about they were getting disability allowance, with no more wrong with that person than me, they could act very good and read a medical book or too, oh boy I did feel good reporting it and put my name to it…..
I have a friend that has MS and she had to go through a lot to get her DLA and she felt guilty using the disability parking bays to start with, incase there were others worse than her needing the bays, but then you get them that are fit as a fiddle taking up spaces as they ...…. :mad:
[quote=sharon;130908]I knew someone that was bragging about they were getting disability allowance, with no more wrong with that person than me, they could act very good and read a medical book or too.
There is several good actors around.:roll:
The vast majority of people do not want to be getting benefits. Many people who outwardly look like they dont care whether they ever work again care very deeply once you get to the crux of the matter. I have seen grown men cry because they cant get work and some of them were men you would think were lazy idle and uncooperative. Where there is true fraud then we should root it out and deal with it but the level of superiority you hear about single parents and those on disability is not very nice at all
oldmarine
06-Sep-06, 18:57
We have similar problems here in the USA. Our government has made it easy for these things to happen. Our social security system has fallen into disarray for many years now. I am an 81 year old WWII veteran who has paid into the system for many years. I am learning that too many have fraudentily entered the system without paying into it by buying deceased social security numbers and collecting from the system.
I lived on the Mexican border for 25 years prior to moving to Tucson, AZ after retirement. While living in Bisbee, AZ I saw non-American citizens pouring, by the hundreds, across the border and trashing the property of friends, neighbors and relatives as they came across the border. We do have people who feel sorry for their plight and help the non-citizens gain entry illegally. Politicians in both parties look the other way and do nothing about it because they see the illegals as potential voters. I believe it is splitting our country and eventually will take it's toll as a result.
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