View Full Version : Dam lies and Cover-up
We hear that the Council have "Learned Lessons over CHaP" ,what a Load of Bull...t,it should read "Councillors get off with it ". Yes its a COVER UP ,we all know that the Council was warned over CHaP and that they remove any data and paperwork that stated they were chasing rainbows .We jailed MPs for fiddling their expences of a few thousand ,but we let Councillors that poured MILLIONS down the drain (or did they) some one ended up with the money .Where did all the money go and can we get some of it back ???? .The contact the council had with these so called experts must have had a clawback clause for non-completion..
The Powers that be want to draw a line under this real quick and well before the elections ..
PS. I have still not heard from A SALMOND (Minister) as yet ,he only has 6 days let under Parliamentary rules...
How much money and where did it go? Has anyone actually resigned?
i dont think we will ever find out whose mattress the money went under,councillers resign and dont need to answer any questions.it seems to me MPs,councillers,anyone in power are all corrupt and are only interested in what they can get for themselves.
i dont think we will ever find out whose mattress the money went under,councillers resign and dont need to answer any questions.it seems to me MPs,councillers,anyone in power are all corrupt and are only interested in what they can get for themselves.
I think that is a rather unfair statement to make. Yes some MP's like all people are corrupt, but not all.
Yes some are out for themselves, but others may just be a little Naive and you don't get the 'top of the line' business person for the salary.
I was over there some years ago when there were even doubts about the thought process behind the initial project. Over the years I heard 'warnings, eventually that it wouldn't work out but......Well, You get what you pay for!
well sandyr1,you get what you pay for???,let me tell you i paid £3000+ for this so called best thing since sliced bread heating,what did the council pay for this white elephant? £20 million? will we ever know the correct figure? i dont think we will.
I think that is a rather unfair statement to make. Yes some MP's like all people are corrupt, but not all.
Yes some are out for themselves, but others may just be a little Naive and you don't get the 'top of the line' business person for the salary.
I was over there some years ago when there were even doubts about the thought process behind the initial project. Over the years I heard 'warnings, eventually that it wouldn't work out but......Well, You get what you pay for!
well sandyr1,you get what you pay for???,let me tell you i paid £3000+ for this so called best thing since sliced bread heating,what did the council pay for this white elephant? £20 million? will we ever know the correct figure? i dont think we will.
I have been reading about it....What's the compensation situation????
I wasn't talking about you losing out/ hope you didn't take it that way........I was talking about the Politicians/ Councillors etc.
I live in an area of approx 700,000 and we have our 'stoooopid' people to!
How much money and where did it go? Has anyone actually resigned?
The answer is NO, they are still there filling their pockets with taxpayers hard earned cash .To make things worse they turned the whole thing over to a non-engineering company,with a shady past and present .Ignis say" they will be using local timber" ,but were will they get it .Every day we see timber trucks felling trees and the air is thick with sawdust and chainsaw smoke and not a sight of Ingis .The word on the jungle drums is Ignis are trying to sell the contact on for £-- Millions and they never had any intentions of getting it going ..We'll just have to wait and see ,i can't see IGNIS raising the funds for a project with such small returns ..
It just cant pay they way they said they wanted to run it .They would have to charge £45.00 per week per customer to break even on the fuel and wages ,never mind the cost of equipment and rates .So we watch with interest...
I have had no replies to a PM to Dozy so feel I have to take this to the public forum.
1 - “We jailed MPs for fiddling their expences of a few thousand ,but we let Councillors that poured MILLIONS down the drain (or did they) some one ended up with the money”
2 - “The answer is NO, they are still there filling their pockets with taxpayers hard earned cash”
I am concerned about the increase in accusations of duplicity and misappropriation of public funds, suggesting personal gain, against Bill Fernie who is one of the councillors in Wick.
He has long regarded the many adverse comments, jibes and general misinformation printed against him as being par for the course and part and parcel of being a Highland councillor and being mindful of peoples right to freedom of speech and opinion has resigned himself to these appearing on his forum and in the local press. However, recently, these comments have taken a nasty twist and taken on an entirely more serious nature with accusations of misappropriation of public funds to his, and the other two councillor's personal gain.
I would ask you again, Dozy, to be more specific and provide some factual evidence for these accusations.
For anyone interested, everything my husband does, everywhere he goes, and every penny he is paid, excluding his commitments to working groups , sub committees and voluntary groups ect., is up for public scrutiny and appears somewhere on the Council website. He can even be seen now “chairing” the ECS committee on webcam on Thursdays and shortly more committees will be viewable.
The constant complaints of lies and deceit thrown at our councillors are increasingly disturbing and reputation destroying, when, in fact, nothing can be further from the truth, and they are working as hard as they can to benefit the whole community.
I am sure that you, being a wife yourself, Dozy, will understand my support of my husband.
Maggie Fernie
I pretty much agree with your comments Maggie and its a further developmnet in the evolution of the org. This kind of stuff has always gone on and before the org it was down the street or in the pub or anywhere where more than 2 people congregated. Anyone who does anything has an alterior motive usually to their own benefit or those of their families. Thats the mistaken idea anyway. Its human nature. People used to say it blindly but with the org its up in lights for all to see.
Well done for getting involved.
I find it difficult to have sympathy for the elected officials who involved themselves in this scheme. From what I've read it has cost the taxpayer £13M plus, to provide heating and hot water to about 260 homes. Whichever way you look at it, that is a very expensive heating system. "Never in the field of Community projects has so much been spent for so little by so few," (my apologies Winston).
Taxpayers are justifiably suspicious when projects go so badly wrong. IMHO they have a right to know where, when, why, and whom is responsible. If our elected officials are not prepared to do the honourable thing and adequately answer these concerns then they can expect public scorn and cynicism.
Bill Fernie
20-Mar-11, 03:10
I think that this was very thoroughly investigated by the Accounts commission and they reported recently pulling no punches and saying who carried what levels of blame. See it at http://www.caithness-business.co.uk/article.php?id=2127
Always remember that councillors make decisions based upon reports presented to them by officials. At the end of the day you can only do something based on what is presented after asking questions and getting assurances. Not all councillors are involved in every decision as it depends on what committee you happen to be appointed to. So blanket accusations do not really make a case - merely a scatter gun of generalisations.
Everyone involved in the matter was interviewed in the course of the lengthy investigations.
With the resignation of councillor MacNab there is no one from Wick left on the ChaP board where there is still ongoing work to try to make a go of the system with Ignis.
It must be remembered that Caithness councillors do not deal with anything on their own. They sit on committees that consist of councillors from all over Highland. Since the latest set up came into being at the last election local councillors are out numbered and therefor do not make decisions on things like ChaP on their own. Indeed the Leader of the council and the Budget Leader in their speeches on the debate on the Accounts Commission report acknowledged responsibility on behalf of all councillors where decisions were taken.
As the only Wick councillor who has not been involved in the matter in this administration (it all started under the old area committee) I have offered to go on to the board as a director to keep a local presence if that is thought to be helpful by the other board members. You may not be surprised that I do not see it as one of my most cherished ambitions to do so but I think it is my duty to try to do anything I can to keep a local presence and eye on what is going on until things come to a hopefully successful conclusion with a working heating system and a working solution if that is at all possible. The alternative might be for the incoming new councillor to take on that role but it may an unwelcome first task for any new councillor.
What I can say is that there is no comparison with what the council does now in regard to Chap and what happened in the past as the Accounts report has said. Many other aspects of council arms length organisations have been tightened up and huge amounts of training have been given to staff and councillors to try and make sure that these failures are avoided in the future. Few organisations do not have failures. It is learning from them for the futre that makes the difference for success in other areas of work. We cannot let mistakes stop us from taking action to try to improve and the only way to make no mistakes is to never do anything.
So I and every other councillor will try to ensure this sorry set of circumstances provide lessons to avoid mistakes in the many other activities of the council. I think that if you look at the record as a whole many successful activites can be pointed at. It is not all gloom. We do have great difficulties with decreasing budgets available and no one can be a councillor in these days without understanding how very much more difficult it is becoming to deliver services efficiently across the Highlands.
Typical councillor waffle!
Walter Ego
20-Mar-11, 11:15
Well, Lasher.
Mr Fernie outlays his views on the subject in a sensible and constructive manner and your enlightened response is:
Typical councillor waffle!
You're way out of your depth, sonny. Run along now.
roadbowler
20-Mar-11, 12:12
If people are concerned... you are perfectly entitled to inspect Council accounts. It is your right to be able to notify the Council you wish to inspect accounts which includes, contracts, receipts, books, vouchers, etc. etc. under The Local Authority Accounts (Scotland) Act 1985. There are time limits but, nonetheless, the option is there.
Thank you Bill Fernie for your analysis and for the link to the Accounts Commission Report. These may go some way to answering a questioning public. However there will still be a number of critics like lasher and dozy who will be aggrieved and angered by the perceived cavalier way public money is being spent. We can only hope that our elected representatives and our employed officials will have learned lessons and will be much more careful in future.
Thank you Bill Fernie for your analysis and for the link to the Accounts Commission Report. These may go some way to answering a questioning public. However there will still be a number of critics like lasher and dozy who will be aggrieved and angered by the perceived cavalier way public money is being spent. We can only hope that our elected representatives and our employed officials will have learned lessons and will be much more careful in future.
There is nothing PERCEIVED about it and the "we can only hope,employed officials have learned lessons " only goes to show that your Fred Goodwin's approach to taxpayers money only paints you with the same brush .Should the new Council logo read "we back stupidity" .CHaP was told long before a shovel hit the ground at Pulteney. It was WASTE OF MONEY ,but they ploughed on regardless because it was a bottomless pit of taxpayers money they were spending.
The Audit Commission Report is a white-wash based on half truths and less that half the evidence .If you can't or wont see pasted that, go buy yourself a white stick or we all should.
I do have great respect of Councillor Fernie of coming forward and giving the Community his take on the CHaP Project/AC Report .I just wished that the Councillors not involved in the CHaP Board had come forward sooner and help save the project .But it does not look good when Ignis Ltd have been awarded the contract .
There is nothing PERCEIVED about it and the "we can only hope,employed officials have learned lessons " only goes to show that your Fred Goodwin's approach to taxpayers money only paints you with the same brush .Should the new Council logo read "we back stupidity" .CHaP was told long before a shovel hit the ground at Pulteney. It was WASTE OF MONEY ,but they ploughed on regardless because it was a bottomless pit of taxpayers money they were spending.
The Audit Commission Report is a white-wash based on half truths and less that half the evidence .If you can't or wont see pasted that, go buy yourself a white stick or we all should.
I do have great respect of Councillor Fernie of coming forward and giving the Community his take on the CHaP Project/AC Report .I just wished that the Councillors not involved in the CHaP Board had come forward sooner and help save the project .But it does not look good when Ignis Ltd have been awarded the contract .
Please be assured that I am as concerned as the next person about the way taxpayers money is spent. I also recognise that mistakes are made despite the administration's best efforts. It happens in all walks of life, public and private.
As a firm believer in listening to both sides of a debate it is only fair and proper that you provide us the expert evidence that. "CHaP was told long before a shovel hit the ground at Pulteney. It was WASTE OF MONEY." Please name the person/s and their credentials/expertise for making that judgement.
I am interested in your ascertion that, "The Audit Commission Report is a white-wash based on half truths and less that half the evidence." Please direct us to the other half of the evidence so that we can question its value and credibility.
I understand you are annoyed about what has happened but unless you can forward a coherent argument and offer up credible evidence then we are only left with the evidence of the Audit Commission and the assurances of our elected representatives.
secrets in symmetry
20-Mar-11, 13:41
I am sure that you, being a wife yourself, Dozy, will understand my support of my husband.Dozy is a woman? Not if he's who I think he is.
In defence of dozy, if he is who I think he is, then he has been saying the same things from the beginning.
If she is a woman, I am totally wrong.
Always assumed she was
http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?69126-Scarlet-Fever
roadbowler
20-Mar-11, 14:02
Always remember that councillors make decisions based upon reports presented to them by officials. At the end of the day you can only do something based on what is presented after asking questions and getting assurances.
In my view, this is where the public is steamrolled everytime. Arguably, when the machine pumps its product, one needs to also inspect the cogs to avoid sidestepping due diligence. I see three areas where councillors in committees have an obligation to exercise meticulous due diligence especially whilst performing as quasi-judicial bodies. In one of these areas, I have never, not once, found evidence to suggest this obligation is even considered (in Highland), much less fulfilled which is unsurprising as it has been found officials are unaware of or perhaps they just ignore this obligation.
So, is it then fair to say that if the officials are incompetent, the councillors only scrutinise semi-competent reports and receive semi-competent answers to their questions and semi-competent assurances? If so, does this qualify as due diligence? Do councillors at Highland ever call in their own experts to scrutinise reports of the officials? Frankly, I don't see this. I see officials presenting reports and thrusting their experts at the councillors. If the councillors are there to look after the interests of the people who elected them they should be expected to proactively scrutinise the work of their officials. That is due diligence.
Well, Lasher.
Mr Fernie outlays his views on the subject in a sensible and constructive manner and your enlightened response is:
You're way out of your depth, sonny. Run along now.
Less of the sonny unless u want a !slap
Margaret M.
20-Mar-11, 14:53
Always assumed she was
http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?69126-Scarlet-Fever
The two writing and typing styles are quite different -- it reads like husband and wife share the Username.
Please be assured that I am as concerned as the next person about the way taxpayers money is spent. I also recognise that mistakes are made despite the administration's best efforts. It happens in all walks of life, public and private.
As a firm believer in listening to both sides of a debate it is only fair and proper that you provide us the expert evidence that. "CHaP was told long before a shovel hit the ground at Pulteney. It was WASTE OF MONEY." Please name the person/s and their credentials/expertise for making that judgement.
I am interested in your ascertion that, "The Audit Commission Report is a white-wash based on half truths and less that half the evidence." Please direct us to the other half of the evidence so that we can question its value and credibility.
I understand you are annoyed about what has happened but unless you can forward a coherent argument and offer up credible evidence then we are only left with the evidence of the Audit Commission and the assurances of our elected representatives.
I presented to the Council evidence that the system they had been sold was a non-starter and far from being a "WORLD BEATER " (Councillor's G Smith's words) but the CHaP Board carried on regardless .I stated that the system was a upgraded design from Newcastle Uni and that there was one being used in Turkey using WDF (WASTE DERIVED FUEL ,from non-recyclable waste) not low grade woodfuel as Pulteney had being told they could use .The system from an engineering stance made no sense and from a Commercial stance was even worse.As i have stated "I was the only one that stood up and told the Council to take a step back and rethink the Project .I had a running battle with the Board of CHaP or i should say one member of the CHaP Board ,which led to me getting a phone call from that member telling me to stop writing to the Media or face "severe personal consequences" if i dont .I provided the Council with over 130 items that backed the statements i made regarding the systems CHaP was going to install .All the paperwork and all the Media items went missing and the Audit Commission never knew the real story behind it all .This is not a failure of a system ,this is pigheaded elected people driving through projects that make NO sense .I was told by a Councillor at a meeting about CHaP "WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT SUCH SYSTEMS ,YOUR ONLY A LOCAL" well it seens a dam site more than their so-called experts ..THATS THE PROBLEM . For 7 years i told them and i got the brush off ,i even asked that Councillor to personally guarantee any loss's but he declined the invitation.
Bill Fernie has come out and explained said situation...Be fair to him and have some respect!
Margaret M.
20-Mar-11, 14:59
I have not been following this too closely but I do remember feeling like this heating system would never be a success after reading some of Dozy's posts in the early days of this project. There was obviously a colossal failure of due diligence here and taxpayers are picking up the tab and a hefty one it is.
Margaret M.
20-Mar-11, 15:18
Bill Fernie has come out and explained said situation...Be fair to him and have some respect!
It sounds like Dozy knows what he is talking about -- he says he tried to head off this disaster and spent seven years trying to get the Council to pay attention. Can you imagine how frustrating it must be to see millions of pounds spent on what you know to be a worthless project? While I appreciate Bill Fernie's response, asking Dozy to be fair and have respect is hardly appropriate.
dozy it seems you may have a credible complaint. The office of the Scottish Public Service Ombudsman is the place to start, although I fear a time limit might thwart any futher progress in that direction.
I have to admit my concern that Ignis, an asset management company has now been given the responsibility for running this project. I wonder how they're going to do that and how much more funding they're going to want.
Everyones corrupt... it's where you draw the line that defines where you are on it...
Angel...
caramel joy
22-Mar-11, 12:17
as a customer of this scheme what can i do to help
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