View Full Version : This really is great news for the area
JOG development
http://www.caithness-business.co.uk/article.php?id=2138
annemarie482
08-Mar-11, 10:42
hope i get to see it in my lifetime!
I fear this development is doomed to failure because there has been little consideration for whatever else is happening along the county’s north coast.
The first phase is to develop the John O'Groats House Hotel site to provide high quality self catering accommodation. Very laudable but IMO there is already a surfeit of such accommodation in the area.
There are proposals for a later phase to develop additional commercial space. I have to ask, ‘why?’ A significant proportion of the existing commercial accommodation has never been fully utilised and has been allowed to deteriorate. The place looks empty even in the height of the 'season'.
In the end John O'Groats needs to have something that will encourage visitors to stay and spend time in the area. History tells us that Groats has always been a transit stop for the many visitors who pass through to the area.
Recent world events have undoubtably had an effect on oil prices and it would be prudent not to expect increased visitor numbers because of increased travel costs.
The bottom line is; what is there at Groats that's going to attract people and encourage them to stay long enough to have an economic impact on the community - not very much I fear.
Well, surely if there is more to see and do, and I see the benefit of self catering in one place, lots of groups visit and it would encourage people to stay for a while.
I think the oil price and cost of travel will help, as it is getting more expensive for a family to fly abroad.
JOG development
http://www.caithness-business.co.uk/article.php?id=2138
No. Get it into perspective. HIE has been brow-beaten into coughing up several million of tax-payers money to a highly profitable company to simply do up a hotel which the company who own it sat on for years because (a) it could offer it up as a 'loss' on its balance sheet and so reduce tax liability; (b) it knew that eventually the public sector would put its hands in its pockets if it waited long enough.
It will no doubt ultimately fall into the long line of HIE 'strategic economic investments' such as the Caithness Glass building, the Hunters of Brora building, the dying days of Norfrost, etc., etc.
Walter Ego
08-Mar-11, 13:06
I fear this development is doomed to failure because there has been little consideration for whatever else is happening along the county’s north coast.
The first phase is to develop the John O'Groats House Hotel site to provide high quality self catering accommodation. Very laudable but IMO there is already a surfeit of such accommodation in the area.
There are proposals for a later phase to develop additional commercial space. I have to ask, ‘why?’ A significant proportion of the existing commercial accommodation has never been fully utilised and has been allowed to deteriorate. The place looks empty even in the height of the 'season'.
In the end John O'Groats needs to have something that will encourage visitors to stay and spend time in the area. History tells us that Groats has always been a transit stop for the many visitors who pass through to the area.
Recent world events have undoubtably had an effect on oil prices and it would be prudent not to expect increased visitor numbers because of increased travel costs.
The bottom line is; what is there at Groats that's going to attract people and encourage them to stay long enough to have an economic impact on the community - not very much I fear.
Apathy is a terrible affliction.
You state that the project is 'doomed' and in the same post then state that Groats need something to 'attract people'. And then proceed to offer absolutely nothing in the way of forward vision.
So, as usual, a wave of negativity and absolutely no answers at all.
Walter Ego
08-Mar-11, 13:07
No. Get it into perspective. HIE has been brow-beaten into coughing up several million of tax-payers money to a highly profitable company to simply do up a hotel which the company who own it sat on for years because (a) it could offer it up as a 'loss' on its balance sheet and so reduce tax liability; (b) it knew that eventually the public sector would put its hands in its pockets if it waited long enough.
It will no doubt ultimately fall into the long line of HIE 'strategic economic investments' such as the Caithness Glass building, the Hunters of Brora building, the dying days of Norfrost, etc., etc.
Completely wrong.
John Little
08-Mar-11, 13:08
I fear Gronnuck has a point.
http://www.caithness.org/community/museums/index.htm
Caithness could really use a big tourist magnet.
Apathy is a terrible affliction.
You state that the project is 'doomed' and in the same post then state that Groats need something to 'attract people'. And then proceed to offer absolutely nothing in the way of forward vision.
So, as usual, a wave of negativity and absolutely no answers at all.
My profuse apologies if I can't see anything positive but the truth is there isn't enough hereabouts to draw and hold a crowd. No one is going to build a theme park at the end of the county's longest cul-de-sac are they?
If my negativity offends you then that is an issue for you. I am as entitled to my opinion as anyone else.
My forward vision would be for Caithness to have it's own tourist board and share of funding so that the county can promote itself in the same way that Orkney does. But I can't see that happening any time soon.
It does sound good and it'll be interesting to see what the results will be. Natural Retreats also have some fancy spangly ideas for Lybster Harbour too apparently.
I hope John o Groats gets its improvement and is successful, but I also fear that it is doomed.
I've taken dozens of friends a tour around Caithness when they've been visiting, and JoG's is always one of the stops.
But the thing is, there's really not much to do there. A few gift shops, selling the same tat that you'll get at Scone, Loch Ness and the royal mile, some interesting craft shops. But that's it.
What is the "attraction"? What's the draw? For me it's the whole "end of Britain" thing, JoG's to Lands end. It's nice to say you've been there and got the photo, but that, for me and the visitors I have taken there, is it. It's rare that we stay more than an hour or two.
I can't imagine for the life of me why you would need such a large hotel development there. I just can't see that many people wanting to stay there for any length of time.
I personally think the money would be better spent building attractions for the area, not more accomodation for those who may or may not come.
lindsaymcc
08-Mar-11, 13:25
I agree.
JOG is fine for an hour. Get a photo to show the world you have been there, have a cuppa, send off some postcards and mooch in the tourist tat shops.
Now I live here, I can see why my parents used to groan every time I asked to go to JOG when we came to visit..... its boring! I love the candle shop, but it is expensive but other than that, its a let down.
The Music Monster
08-Mar-11, 13:27
I will personally be watching this space with mixed feelings... If it is successful then fantastic!! If it isn't what a lot of money will have been directed to it instead of something else. I guess I'm a bit tentative about it but time will tell...
I'm certainly not going to by overtly positive or negative about it at this stage.
John Little
08-Mar-11, 13:35
There is not much at Lands End either. Cornwall is a cul de sac though it has more people. It has beaches and scenery. You don't go to Cornwall specially to visit Lands End.
It also has the Eden Project and the Lost Gardens of Heligan in addition to all its smaller museums and exhibitions. People go out of their way to visit those. I would never have gone to Cornwall a few years ago if it were not for the Eden Project. That's what drew me in- and the car park was full.
The visitors will also go to the smaller stuff but they would not go to Cornwall specially for them.
The big magnet draws people in then that has a knock on effect on the rest and the local economy.
There is not much at Lands End either. Cornwall is a cul de sac though it has more people. It has beaches and scenery. You don't go to Cornwall specially to visit Lands End.
It also has the Eden Project and the Lost Gardens of Heligan in addition to all its smaller museums and exhibitions. People go out of their way to visit those.
That's exactly my thoughts.
The proposal adds little in the way of attraction to the area. It's building more accomodation for visitors that isn't needed now, so why will it be needed in the future? Unless we build attractions............ For me they're putting the cart before the horse.
Caithness has tourist potential. I just don't think a hotel at John o Groats is going to provide any "draw".
There is not much at Lands End either. Cornwall is a cul de sac though it has more people. It has beaches and scenery. You don't go to Cornwall specially to visit Lands End.
It also has the Eden Project and the Lost Gardens of Heligan in addition to all its smaller museums and exhibitions. People go out of their way to visit those. I would never have gone to Cornwall a few years ago if it were not for the Eden Project. That's what drew me in- and the car park was full.
The visitors will also go to the smaller stuff but they would not go to Cornwall specially for them.
The big magnet draws people in then that has a knock on effect on the rest and the local economy.
Cornwall is very different from Caithness. It has its own Tourist Board and has really good road and rail links. It has a more moderate climate than we have here and so it has a longer ‘season’. It has become something of a surfing mecca for the south of England. It has a number of attractions including those you’ve listed and all this making it much more appealing to visitors.
Land’s End itself has no more to offer than Groats and you are charged an entrance fee for parking. The attraction of Cornwall is certainly not Land’s End.
There are places in Caithness to interest visitors but we need investment in our transport infrastructure and an independent Tourist Board to ‘sell’ what we have.
onecalledk
08-Mar-11, 14:48
I have often wondered why Caithness has not been "marketed" as well as Orkney. Caithness has some amazing history and amazing historical places but unless you have done a fair bit of research its not obvious how or where to go in the county to experience them. Is it the case that Highland Council just dont know what they are doing? I used to live in Inverness before moving up here and that also seemed a bit of a disaster, a castle used as a court room would confuse many a poor visitor to the place along with a museum that looked like it was falling down and revamped has the weirdest opening hours ever .......
This is an amazing piece of scotland so why do the council allow it to be kept secret. I am pretty sure hundreds of those on their way to Orkney dont give any part of caithness a second thought when boarding the boat but they are missing out a huge chunk of scottish history........
I agree about John O Groats , we have had people up visiting and the trip to JOG was a nightmare, people ARE expecting something to be there and not a hotel that is falling down and a lot of empty shop units either ..... The potential is there so why is it not utilised ?
Am not sure that creating more accomodation will help, stuck in JOG in a lovely self catering flat with what to do? what would tell you what is on your doorstep? you would be tempted to nip over to Orkney methinks.......
A lot of people I speak to when hearing where I live rave about the scenery and the peace and quiet but then exclaim that getting to Caithness is a bit of a trek and not very cost effective. Why are there not more flights from Wick airport to other parts of the country? Why are the rail links so poor ? etc etc etc ......... Friends came up the other week to see us after a strange drive north that took forever for them (albeit the sat nav was having a bit of a laugh when they came over the Causeymire) and exclaimed that they would fly next time...... So they have a choice of 2 flights a day from Edinburgh (cue journey to edinburgh airport .......)
This is the same with Inverness "the gateway to the highlands", who came up with that nugget? Tourists need to be told what is here, they need to be drawn here and their journey here needs to be easy for them or they wont bother ...... So perhaps instead of putting money into a hotel which is falling down and MORE accomodation and shop units the money could be spent on either upgrading the road (ok so its a fantasy but hey...) or making it easier to get here, 4.5 hours to get here by train is a joke .....
K
Duncansby
08-Mar-11, 15:00
There are places in Caithness to interest visitors but we need investment in our transport infrastructure and an independent Tourist Board to ‘sell’ what we have.
You make an excellent point, there is lots to see and do in Caithness yet the Tourist Board and now Visit Scotland for years and years have been selling Caithness short. We need to start promoting our history, culture and environment to visitors and build initiatives around these interests. Perhaps by creating a base for people to explore Caithness from will draw folk in but there needs to be enough here for them to do during their stay. Now we all know that there is plenty to see and do here but unless this is marketed properly how will potential visitors know!
I hope its a success but its not as if it's the first time major investment was earmarked for Groats!
It's good I suppose but John O' Groats isn't the best place to spend it.
John Little
08-Mar-11, 16:56
Your nearest large scale tourist attraction;
http://www.dayoutwiththekids.co.uk/family-fun/Landmark_Forest_Theme_Park/416
What's it like?
Your nearest large scale tourist attraction;
http://www.dayoutwiththekids.co.uk/family-fun/Landmark_Forest_Theme_Park/416
What's it like?
Why does a 'tourist attraction' have to be a man-made compound you pay money to get into ?
The nearest 'large scale tourist attraction' to Caithness is.....Caithness.
Anyway forward thinking, there needs to be somewhere to stay for all the Nuke tourists coming to see the dome :eek:
orkneycadian
08-Mar-11, 17:14
The nearest 'large scale tourist attraction' to Caithness is.....Caithness. Orkney!
Ach well, some stuff for the tourists to look at in Groats will keep them occupied till the boat leaves!
My profuse apologies if I can't see anything positive but the truth is there isn't enough hereabouts to draw and hold a crowd. No one is going to build a theme park at the end of the county's longest cul-de-sac are they?
If my negativity offends you then that is an issue for you. I am as entitled to my opinion as anyone else.
My forward vision would be for Caithness to have it's own tourist board and share of funding so that the county can promote itself in the same way that Orkney does. But I can't see that happening any time soon.
May I agree with this statement. Too many times over the years I have seen Scotland advertised as far as Inverness and there it ends. Actually cut off.
I have friends who had some difficulty in actually arranging a trip to include Jan de Groot's place. It is not well advertised and they were somewhat disappointed with the state of the place. I like the idea of the Northern part promoting itself.
I feel that anything that can be done will be an improvement to what is occurring.
The Caveat here is that I don't want to appear to be critical. I have stressed this point before/ perhaps for 20 years to The Groat, Case and anyone else I could think of.
Imagine going into a Travel Office and seeing a map of Scotland cut off at Inverness!
John Little
08-Mar-11, 17:41
Why does a 'tourist attraction' have to be a man-made compound you pay money to get into ?
The nearest 'large scale tourist attraction' to Caithness is.....Caithness.
Because if you want to persuade Mr and Mrs Smurf to trek northwards with the kids you have to have something for the mass market. Scenery and surfing and golf don't cut it with fractious 8 year olds who want something to do. The sea is too cold and these days folks want entertainment.
I love Caithness. It has a lot of what I want. But with kids I want a ride or two, some interactive exhibits, a spot of history, something remarkable. Amusements. Some education. Awe and wonder.
I can see museums, potteries and glassworks in a lot of other places.
Lybster Golf Course......
Lybster Harbour...Perhaps one of the most scenic!
FYI....Several people I know, over the years, have taken the 3 week bus trip of Scotland.
They end up staying in Wick and then are offered a Scenic trip to a quaint Scottish Village, which they have all said was one of the highlights of their trip.
Lybster Harbour and then to the Portland where they are entertained by a 'man' playing a 'Boxie'! Big drams all around and then of course they see a few of the locals wearing Canadian Pins. And then I hear all about it when they come back. That is how I made these anon Canadian's friendship!
Some stopped at the Melvich hotel on the 'way round the top', and truly marvelled at the wildness and beauty of the North West Coast.....
BTW.....If anyone has a contact on the Tourist Board you can tell them.....for the past 20 years the North has not been properly promoted. I did also write them and again/as usual......never received a reply!
fractious 8 year olds
Then maybe, just maybe, fractious 8 year olds are not the market......
John Little
08-Mar-11, 18:31
Aye - maybe but if they are not then wave ta-ta to the family market, which is where the money is, and say hello to the niche market where, hopefully, itinerant Canadians will rescue the local economy with mass coach tours.
It does sound good and it'll be interesting to see what the results will be.
Follow the manner of the past business dealings of Kevin Leech and his kin, and you'll get a fair idea of what the results will be. I'm printing my "Told you so" t-shirt as I type.
Thank you for your support L.J.,
Allow me to add............
50+% of Canadians are of Scottish Heritage, and the others wish they were!
John Little
08-Mar-11, 19:13
Well stocky grey solidity eh?
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/travel--over-the-hills-and-far-away-caithness--the-lowlands-beyond-the-highlands--is-a-wild-haunting-region-with-few-visitors-graham-coster-lingers-for-a-while-in-the-place-on-the-road-to-elsewhere-1423555.html
and this looks really positive...
http://www.johnogroat-journal.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/2952/Troubleshooter_targets_tourism.html
Bobinovich
08-Mar-11, 19:15
I've recently been involved with the redevelopment of a website (http://www.pentlandtours.co.uk) who's aim is to provide some ideas of what people can see, do & experience while in Caithness, and would be interested to get some feedback on it if anyone cares to (PM or use enquiry form on site).
oldmarine
08-Mar-11, 19:27
JoG is not the only attraction in the area, but I believe developing and improving it would help. Along with all the other attractions in Caithness I believe it could be a good thing. I remember my three trips to the area quite well. The last one was with my family and they thoroughly enjoyed their time visiting all the sights. Give it a chance folks and do what ever you can to help it along. Even at 85 years of age I would like to return there myself and perhaps with my wife.
Let's dispense with the negativity and come up with some suggestions of attractions which would suit the area. I think that someone with an entrepreneurial flair could really benefit from investment in the area. How about a Seaworld or similar? What do you think would be a good draw?
John Little
08-Mar-11, 20:28
No worries - the council has it sussed...
http://www.highland.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/179E4A3A-9DFC-4696-984A-D8FDF2EF3C24/0/vision.pdf
George Brims
09-Mar-11, 02:01
Well here's one quick simple suggestion for JOG. Put in a decent (as in not plootering through too many boggy bits) loop trail so people can walk over and see the Duncansby stacks from the clifftops directly opposite as well as from the headland near the lighthouse, and maybe even a wee spur road to a small car park at that location so the less agile can get to see that view too. I was first taken there by my parents at age four or so and the image still sticks in my mind. A few explanatory signs of the type that identify the landmarks in the distance would also be a help (and sort of standard for any "view" attraction).
Well here's one quick simple suggestion for JOG. Put in a decent (as in not plootering through too many boggy bits) loop trail so people can walk over and see the Duncansby stacks from the clifftops directly opposite as well as from the headland near the lighthouse, and maybe even a wee spur road to a small car park at that location so the less agile can get to see that view too.
Good suggestion.
Why they're spending this kind of money on a hotel, to house people with little to stay for, is beyond me.
John Little
09-Mar-11, 07:57
I have been having a poke round the HIE website because I was curious about detail and the article did not give the amount of detail that is perhaps requisite for a project of this size.
It's all on their website and if all goes to plan then JoG and Duncansby Stacks could indeed turn into a honeypot.
http://www.hie.co.uk/highlands-and-islands/transformational-projects/archive/john-o-groats-masterplan.html
Looks rather good actually.
Any more honeypot suggestions?
Aside from the obvious Duke....
Right- I'm going to be serious for a change. The last time I was in Caithness, my heart sank when I saw JOG. The empty shops-even Fripperies had closed; the lack of places that were open to serve tea (It was a day when Castle of Mey tea room was closed too) and empty carpark said it all. Compared with Orkney- this was a travestyWhy not offer those retail units on a trial basis to some of those big concerns that decided not to open in Wick- the buildings are already up- so why not a Next seconds shop; an Anta showroom; even a mini Ikea- and then- if it looks viable, get local building firms to pitch in to do the conversion at a reasonable cost- and take on apprentices to work with them. A Youth Hostel rather than luxry provision might be the way forward?
Apathy is a terrible affliction.
You state that the project is 'doomed' and in the same post then state that Groats need something to 'attract people'. And then proceed to offer absolutely nothing in the way of forward vision.
So, as usual, a wave of negativity and absolutely no answers at all.
Apathy is one thing but you choose to be even more negative than the negative people you knock! Quality.
Walter Ego
12-Mar-11, 09:23
Follow the manner of the past business dealings of Kevin Leech and his kin, and you'll get a fair idea of what the results will be. I'm printing my "Told you so" t-shirt as I type.
Another shaft of golden water from the master of spiteful tripe.
I said before, Chordie, you are completely wrong.
Massive project (therfore massive investment) + lack of local agreement to stump up the cash to revitalise the whole area have dogged JOG for years. Heritage aren't stupid, theywere not going to chuck their money into the project whils evryone else stepped back and did absolutely nothing.
Ever been to any of ther meetings at JOG regarding planning it's future? I doubt it very much.
Like people on this board - everyone has a damned good idea about what should be done about it.........
....until someone suggests putting their money where their mouth is.
Then it always goes VERY quiet.
Good luck, I say. Progress is made by doing things and stumping up hard cash - a quality sadly lacking in many in Caithness. Much easier to whine at others.
KEEP_ON_TRUCKIN
12-Mar-11, 09:44
As someone who has a holiday home in John O Groats I get nothing but glowing comments about the accomodation and the area - most people who actually come to stay for a week just revel in the scenery, the walks, beaches and abundance of nature and natural interest.
So why does everyone think that there needs to be some sort of massive attraction - don't you ever book a holiday anywhere just to "get away from it all?".
Repeat bookings show that people love the area just the way it is!
As someone who has a holiday home in John O Groats I get nothing but glowing comments about the accomodation and the area - most people who actually come to stay for a week just revel in the scenery, the walks, beaches and abundance of nature and natural interest.
So why does everyone think that there needs to be some sort of massive attraction - don't you ever book a holiday anywhere just to "get away from it all?".
Repeat bookings show that people love the area just the way it is!
That's good to hear.
So do we need more accomodation for the amount of visitors currently coming?
Is there enough in the area already?
If so, why are we throwing public money at a private hotel that is only going to result in a loss of business for current B+B's etc?
If money is to be spent on "enterprise", it should be spend on things that attract people, and therefore money, to the area. People come to a hotel because they want to be in the area. They don't come to the area because they want to stay in a hotel.
If enough people are attracted to John o Groats and want to stay there, then any hotel development should be viable WITHOUT public money.
So why does everyone think that there needs to be some sort of massive attraction - don't you ever book a holiday anywhere just to "get away from it all?"
Whilst many do want to get away from it all, there is often baggage, in the way of kids! There really isn't much up here to keep kids entertained, there is the need for some sort of 'attraction' that will keep families happy.
We started coming up here as a couple, and it was a fabulous place for us two to "get away from it all" (and for the two of us, still would be). Wifey would happily chill out with a few books and I could go off and troll about the area and keep myself entertained rambling about with me camera.
Throw into this a couple of kids with the attention span of a gnat and it becomes a very, very different 'holiday'.
I think to really benefit from tourism there needs to be a variety of things to suit all ages. It doesn't necessarily mean a Blackpool style pleasure beach with a big dipper, but more family orientated stuff would be a boost.
canadagirl
13-Mar-11, 01:12
From the viewpoint of a recent "tourist" I would agree that building more accomodation in John o Groats isn't going to help. There would definitely have to be something to 'do'. It appears that surfing and sea kayaking are undermarketed. I am in a coastal area where those activities are big draws for tourism. I wonder if people would pay to be immersed in peat bogs and then slathered with seaweed? A zipline at Duncansby? A culinary school? Drystone dyke building classes? Perhaps a recreation of a hundred or so year old village where people can watch butter making, spinning, fish smoking, labour intensive farming etc. and stay in 'authentic' homes of the era? I suspect that throwing money at an area is a way of the powers that be saying they've tried to do something, without actually putting any thought into it, or as we call it 'a make work project'. By the way, coming from somewhere that there are no trains I think your rail system is great and the journey to Inverness goes in no time as the scenery is so wonderful and there's always someone to talk to.
I wonder if we'll see another report like this one highlighting another failure of HIE in the near future.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-12715636
I hope not.
John Little
13-Mar-11, 08:29
"Perhaps a recreation of a hundred or so year old village where people can watch butter making, spinning, fish smoking, labour intensive farming etc. and stay in 'authentic' homes of the era? "
I made a suggestion for one of those in the county on another thread. It could be done. I went to one on the Isle of Man;http://www.iomguide.com/cregneashvillage.php
It was fascinating and the car park was full. You have to try to get to the Isle of Man too.
Having looked at the JoG scheme I think it stands a good chance - but it would, I agree, stand a better chance if there were at least one large other honeypot.
Phill's post captures the essence of it.
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