View Full Version : Ramp Entrance to new houses
What do folks think about having to install ramps in new builds to give access to disabled folk?
What do folks think about having to install ramps in new builds to give access to disabled folk?
Not before time...It should have happened years ago!!!
C3....:eek:
ShelleyCowie
06-Mar-11, 17:33
Basic common sense aint it? As C3 said, should of happened years ago
They dont only give access to disabled people, but they are ideal for families too, especially if you have pushchairs and prams with babies and toddlers in. They are very good if you are carrying heavy bags of shopping you do not have to worry about steps, especially in the dark.
If its your house you should be able to do whatever you want. Within reason.
Not before time...It should have happened years ago!!!
C3....:eek:
I'm pretty sure it's been compulsory for some time now, at least 6 or 7 years. I delivered plumbing supplies to new builds all over the County up to 2006, and i'm pretty certain that disabled access ramps were required by law at least a couple of years proir to 2006 when i left that job. They were certainly incorporated into the design of most new builds that i can remember delivering to around then.
I'm pretty sure it's been compulsory for some time now, at least 6 or 7 years. I delivered plumbing supplies to new builds all over the County up to 2006, and i'm pretty certain that disabled access ramps were required by law at least a couple of years proir to 2006 when i left that job. They were certainly incorporated into the design of most new builds that i can remember delivering to around then.
Sorry Gizmo, I didnt explain my post very well, when I said "years ago" I was thinking more of the 40's or even 1918/19 when brave soldiers came home from horrendous wars with limbs missing.....Hope that clears things up!!
C3...:(
You are right there Gizmo, we moved into a new property in Perthshire in 2002 and the builders had been putting them in for 2 years then.
Sorry Gizmo, I didnt explain my post very well, when I said "years ago" I was thinking more of the 40's or even 1918/19 when brave soldiers came home from horrendous wars with limbs missing.....Hope that clears things up!!
C3...:(
Ah right, no worries. I just assumed you were referring to more recent times.
neepnipper
06-Mar-11, 19:20
When we built our house just over five years ago we had to have a disabled ramp and the doorways had to be a certain width to allow wheelchair access, I think the bathroom had to be a certain way as well to allow a wheelchair to get in and be able to turn around. Wasn't that much of a big deal really.
When we built our house just over five years ago we had to have a disabled ramp and the doorways had to be a certain width to allow wheelchair access, I think the bathroom had to be a certain way as well to allow a wheelchair to get in and be able to turn around. Wasn't that much of a big deal really.
Yes, there's also other "wheelchair friendly" regulations such as heights of light switches an sockets.
Scarybiscuits03
06-Mar-11, 19:38
Ramps are great and they don't have to be obvious. I had one in my last house that was rather in your face but in this house it's so well hidden that people dont even notice it's there. Very handy for all sorts of reasons (pushchairs, wheelchairs and don't forget moving in/out)
tonkatojo
06-Mar-11, 19:53
I presume it can only be a £ saver for the council for future owners/tenents that way no pay out for disabled grants for said ramps, they aint daft are they.
northener
06-Mar-11, 19:55
Yup, should have been part of building regs donkeys years ago.
Imagine how many people have spent many happy years in a property only to be forced out when they become disabled because of something as basic as lack of access to to aproperty or bathroom? Could have saved the taxpayers millions over the years, too.
If its your house you should be able to do whatever you want. Within reason.
I totally agree, I can't honestly think why I should have to go to the time and expense of installing such a ramp in my own house. If, and god forbid it happens I would get someone to build a ramp for access if me or a member of my family becomes disabled and I wanted them to access my house.
The decision to have a ramp, or any other facility for that matter (not necessarily disability related) should be down to the person building and paying for the initial build.
Far, far too much 'Big Nanny State' requirements being forced upon individuals in this country. If situations change in the future, for the builder or their friends or relations, mobility or health wise,then it should be up to them to pay for reperations or changes as required.
What next: compulsory prayer mats in case a Muslim oriented person happens by, or brail on the light switches, or seperate male and female toilets in case any possible visitor is embarrased or feels in the slightest put out?
Long past time that things got back to basics and let people be responsible for their own circumstances.
It would cost less than half the price to install a disabled entrance in a new build than to come back and do it later and in some cases probably less than that.
In the old days, we built our houses on the ground - not 4 foot high timber framed things that will not last. So we had no need for ramps if your door is at ground level
It would cost less than half the price to install a disabled entrance in a new build than to come back and do it later and in some cases probably less than that.
Cost even less if you have no one disabled wanting to come in your house!
Please excuse my ignorance here.......
But, would this council rule apply to a double-story, new-build, house? ie - how would a disabled person access the first floor ?
Or would this mean that any new builds would also have to incorporate stair-lifts as part of the build?
P/S - I am not, by any means, against said ramps and such, but as another orger mentioned, at the end of the day this is your home and your personal investment, probably the biggest one of your/your families life - if, at the time of building, you are blessed not to have a family member with such requirements, then why should you be made to install items to access same?
I think the rule came in mid-2000. We moved into our new build early 2000 and didn't need a ramp. A friend started building about that time and needed one. When it first came in, quite a few people built a temporary ramp which they then removed after getting their completion certificate. This loophole was quickly removed and all ramps needed to be permanent.
Cost even less if you have no one disabled wanting to come in your house!
I think as a society we decided not to exclude the needs of disabled folk.
Slightly off thread but was in Thurso today and the better half had to go. went down to the bogs by the river to use the toilets and the disabled door toilet read along these lines " Key available from Tourist Information Office" Office was shut!! Thankfully the missus isnt disabled!
The decision to have a ramp, or any other facility for that matter (not necessarily disability related) should be down to the person building and paying for the initial build.
Far, far too much 'Big Nanny State' requirements being forced upon individuals in this country. If situations change in the future, for the builder or their friends or relations, mobility or health wise,then it should be up to them to pay for reperations or changes as required.
What next: compulsory prayer mats in case a Muslim oriented person happens by, or brail on the light switches, or seperate male and female toilets in case any possible visitor is embarrased or feels in the slightest put out?
Long past time that things got back to basics and let people be responsible for their own circumstances.
You are correct in the fact that all extras should be budgeted into the initial price and in private places individuals should be responsible for same.
But in Public places, and I don't know what your thoughts are on those, most of the Western World do have brail on light switches and elevators buttons, male and female toilets, ramps and lifts for the disabled, and I am sure that this will cause some 'grief'...A seperate toilet for Trans sexual/transgendered etc etc people! Methinks if it is classified as Public then it should be accessible to the Public, all of us/them.
Welcome to the Real World!
You are correct in the fact that all extras should be budgeted into the initial price and in private places individuals should be responsible for same.
But in Public places, and I don't know what your thoughts are on those, most of the Western World do have brail on light switches and elevators buttons, male and female toilets, ramps and lifts for the disabled, and I am sure that this will cause some 'grief'...A seperate toilet for Trans sexual/transgendered etc etc people! Methinks if it is classified as Public then it should be accessible to the Public, all of us/them.
Welcome to the Real World!
The original thread was hoping to attract replys about private houses and not public places.
The original thread was hoping to attract replys about private houses and not public places.
I thank you for clarification. It did say 'new houses'.....If it would be a New Council House then it would be 'Public', as in owned and maintained by Gov't.
Valid point. But why pick on private houses?
northener
06-Mar-11, 20:47
Valid point. But why pick on private houses?
Why have building regs at all, then?
If you're only 5 foot tall why bother having doors that can accomodate 6 footers? Same daft argument.
Cough up, David;):Razz
Kevin Milkins
06-Mar-11, 20:56
Slightly off thread but was in Thurso today and the better half had to go. went down to the bogs by the river to use the toilets and the disabled door toilet read along these lines " Key available from Tourist Information Office" Office was shut!! Thankfully the missus isnt disabled!
If you where registered disabled and entitled to use the disabled toilet you would have your own key.
If you where registered disabled and entitled to use the disabled toilet you would have your own key.
I don't have any experience at all, but, I would imagine that Kevin is correct ? ?
Valid point. But why pick on private houses?
I re-read the entire thread I now realize that private houses must have a ramp. Wow...Seems a bit much, but I guess the 'Gov't' thinks it necessary. I suppose it adds value to your home.
tonkatojo
06-Mar-11, 21:08
If you where registered disabled and entitled to use the disabled toilet you would have your own key.
Is this a local facility Kevin or is this a nation wide scheme ?, I ask as I am registered disabled and no one has offered/suggested getting a key.
I re-read the entire thread and it seems that private houses must have a ramp. Wow...Seems a bit much, but I guess the 'Gov't' thinks it necessary. I suppose it adds value to your home.
As you've said Sandy, I honestly believe that the "New Build must have access via ramps etc." is a complete cop-out by the Council !!!
I'd hate to see any disabled body being discriminated against...but, as others have commented on this thread... where do you stop ?
I'll stick by my post on here, if I were ever in the position to build a new home, then I would definetley say that, " I'm paying a massive ammount of my own personal monies and I certainly do not need someone telling me how my home should be made to accept disabled people if I do not want that!!" (God forbid - if I were to be in such circumstances - then it would be up to me to arrange access for said people !)
If said "Council" wishes "MY" home to be built to their standards - then they can pay for it !! [evil]
tonkatojo
06-Mar-11, 21:17
As you've said Sandy, I honestly believe that the "New Build must have access via ramps etc." is a complete cop-out by the Council !!!
I'd hate to see any disabled body being discriminated against...but, as others have commented on this thread... where do you stop ?
I'll stick by my post on here, if I were ever in the position to build a new home, then I would definetley say that, " I'm paying a massive ammount of my own personal monies and I certainly do not need someone telling me how my home should be made to accept disabled people if I do not want that!!" (God forbid - if I were to be in such circumstances - then it would be up to me to arrange access for said people !)
If said "Council" wishes "MY" home to be built to their standards - then they can pay for it !! [evil]
I doubt you would would ever get planning permission, the "regs" dictate all of your build not only disabled facilities, such as 150 mill blocks instead of 100mill ones and numerous other things, usually they are awkward for a good reason.
south view 7
06-Mar-11, 21:21
Please excuse my ignorance here.......
But, would this council rule apply to a double-story, new-build, house? ie - how would a disabled person access the first floor ?
Or would this mean that any new builds would also have to incorporate stair-lifts as part of the build?
P/S - I am not, by any means, against said ramps and such, but as another orger mentioned, at the end of the day this is your home and your personal investment, probably the biggest one of your/your families life - if, at the time of building, you are blessed not to have a family member with such requirements, then why should you be made to install items to access same?
In a new build double story you have to have a bedroom on the ground floor,and you are not allowed an open fire either.
Why have building regs at all, then?
If you're only 5 foot tall why bother having doors that can accomodate 6 footers? Same daft argument.
Cough up, David;):Razz
Building regs are there for a reason, granted, however the same council who enforce the same regs as you allude to fail to open an office where the disabled can access a toilet-see previous posts.
I doubt you would would ever get planning permission, the "regs" dictate all of your build not only disabled facilities, such as 150 mill blocks instead of 100mill ones and numerous other things, usually they are awkward for a good reason.
or sometimes they make no sense.
Having just built our own house and had to put the disabled access ramp thing i think it is awfull as the only place it could go is at the front off our house and it looks rubbish, I think our house would look much better without it! Neither my partner or I need it for wheelchair access or prams etc so I was a pointless and very expensive task!!! I think it should have been our choice as to whether it went there or not!! An if at a later date we needed it it could have been added then. Ok rant over :)
Having just built our own house and had to put the disabled access ramp thing i think it is awfull as the only place it could go is at the front off our house and it looks rubbish, I think our house would look much better without it! Neither my partner or I need it for wheelchair access or prams etc so I was a pointless and very expensive task!!! I think it should have been our choice as to whether it went there or not!! An if at a later date we needed it it could have been added then. Ok rant over :)
Yes exactly, it could have been added at a later date if needed which would be a sensible option.
Having just built our own house and had to put the disabled access ramp thing i think it is awfull as the only place it could go is at the front off our house and it looks rubbish, I think our house would look much better without it! Neither my partner or I need it for wheelchair access or prams etc so I was a pointless and very expensive task!!! I think it should have been our choice as to whether it went there or not!! An if at a later date we needed it it could have been added then. Ok rant over :)
Nobody can stop you removing the ramp.
It's just a requirement to have it when the new build is "approved".
I know people who deliberately made theirs out of wood so that would be easier to do.
equusdriving
06-Mar-11, 22:29
Its a bit like making all new cars have wheelchair access regardless of who is going to buy it
It's not all bad, a certain Kit Mfg, that I am a fan of, has redesigned all of there 'stock' houses to obviously include the ramp but also the interiors with something like 25% more floor area to allow for the wider corridors, doors etc and don't charge any more for them.
I'll stick by my post on here, if I were ever in the position to build a new home, then I would definetley say that, " I'm paying a massive ammount of my own personal monies and I certainly do not need someone telling me how my home should be made to accept disabled people if I do not want that!!" (God forbid - if I were to be in such circumstances - then it would be up to me to arrange access for said people !)
If said "Council" wishes "MY" home to be built to their standards - then they can pay for it !! [evil]
I see where you're coming from, but the building regulations have been here for years.
And they're generally there to meet certain standards of safety.
The inclusion of "accessibility" requirements is more modern.
If you wish to build a house, you legally have to meet these regulations. It's not a matter of choice.
Nobody can stop you removing the ramp.
It's just a requirement to have it when the new build is "approved".
I know people who deliberately made theirs out of wood so that would be easier to do.
Hows all them disabled folks going to manage if you remove all them ramps?
I see where you're coming from, but the building regulations have been here for years.
And they're generally there to meet certain standards of safety.
The inclusion of "accessibility" requirements is more modern.
If you wish to build a house, you legally have to meet these regulations. It's not a matter of choice.
It is a matter of choice to a degree as I am informed on this forum that you can take said ramps down once paperwork formalised.
secretsquirrel
06-Mar-11, 22:46
having friends who through no fault of their own need wheelchairs, I would say ramps into houses are an excellent regulation and those that disagree should try living as a "wheelchair" person for a month and see how they survive the time.
One of the problems that my friends talkabout are the number of houses with unsuitable ramps which are so steep that the person needs help to use them, how legal are those?
Also never mind the ramps to houses, how many shops in Wick are wheelchair accessible? anyone with a wheelchair tried visiting the local takle shop in Wick? How about the banks? only the Royal Bank has a ramp.
Ours has proved to be hours of fun for the kids on their bikes. Also came in handy for getting a piano in!
As for the council saving money, well it is our money so they should try and find ways to save it.
So your doors have to be a bit wider, blimey that'll cost thousands. A ramp installed as part of a new build would only cost a couple of hundred quid extra, and out of what may be an £80 to £100k spend, is not going to screw your budget.
You don't know what's round the corner or coming in 10 or 20 years, or who else might want to buy your house. Or even you get to know someone who is disabled and they want to pop round ferra cuppa.
Once you've retired and your income is the state pension and you for, whatever reason, end up in a wheelchair. You will of course not say a word whilst you save up thousands to have your house retro fitted with new doors, rewired with repositioned switches and a ramp built. All the while your living in a tent 'cos you can't get in your house!
If yer building a new house then a wee bit of thought at design stage and you may negate the need ferra ramp.
So the Council insist you have a ramp for your new build house occupying able bodied people. The same body has council houses throughout the county with no disabled access-they no doubt take the cost of such ramps into consideration and only supply them on a "as need basis", upgrading their stock depending on demand. So why the disparity with privately owned houses where owners are forced to have them? Not only that, you can have a driveway made up of say type 2 aggregate (immpossible to push a wheelchair over) but as long as you have a ramp then theres your certificate.
It is a matter of choice to a degree as I am informed on this forum that you can take said ramps down once paperwork formalised.
Yes, but to get the paperwork you need the ramp. No choice there.
No paperwork, no mortgage, no insurance etc.
The choice comes AFTER the paperwork.
So the Council insist you have a ramp for your new build house occupying able bodied people. The same body has council houses throughout the county with no disabled access-they no doubt take the cost of such ramps into consideration and only supply them on a "as need basis", upgrading their stock depending on demand. So why the disparity with privately owned houses where owners are forced to have them? Not only that, you can have a driveway made up of say type 2 aggregate (immpossible to push a wheelchair over) but as long as you have a ramp then theres your certificate.
There's no disparity David.
Any new build needs a ramp.
That goes for council, authority or private builds.
The council aren't forcing anyone to install ramps to existing properties, nor are they installing them on their own.
I'm sure the regs apply to all new buildings regardless of ownership.
Yes there is a huge public housing stock pre existing the regulations implementation date, it is not retrospective. They are looking to the future and by making small changes now they are looking at huge cost savings for decades to come.
Also you need a suitable hard standing by your house too (another regulation for the benefit of the disabled). There is some practical common sense applied methinks (for a refreshing change), the assumption being that a vehicle would be used by or for said wheelchair occupant. Or would you rather the regs specified a tarmac driveway too?
Yes, but to get the paperwork you need the ramp. No choice there.
No paperwork, no mortgage, no insurance etc.
The choice comes AFTER the paperwork.
Okay I agree but all a bit pointless. Build a ramp, get paperwork, take down/leave ramp. Why not just build a ramp as and when required like the council do with their housing stock?
Okay I agree but all a bit pointless. Build a ramp, get paperwork, take down/leave ramp. Why not just build a ramp as and when required like the council do with their housing stock?
I wouldn't disagree.
But the law's the law, if we want to build, we've got to meet their regulations.
Why not just build a ramp as and when required like the council do with their housing stock? And you would set aside a suitable sum of money to build a ramp in the future. A suitable amount being enough to cover the cost in say 30 years, and place in a trust that would be carried to any future owners of the house? :confused
Out of interest, I assume your building a house, what is the actual cost of the ramp v the total build cost?
I wouldn't disagree.
But the law's the law, if we want to build, we've got to meet their regulations.
"Their regulations" not ours then? no we would have been more sensible.
annemarie482
06-Mar-11, 23:58
And you would set aside a suitable sum of money to build a ramp in the future. A suitable amount being enough to cover the cost in say 30 years, and place in a trust that would be carried to any future owners of the house? :confused
Out of interest, I assume your building a house, what is the actual cost of the ramp v the total build cost?
i've recently built a new bungalow (not personally of course but its ours!)
the ramp is compulsary and can only be removed by youselves after the building standards lot have been out to inspect the house.
and a "tempory ramp" isn't good enough to pass!
it also has to be to your front or back door, a patio door does not count.
but whilst we're talking forced changes to new homes,
you also have to have your light switches lower than standard, sockets higher than standard (for wheelchair users)
there also has to be suitable wheelchair turning space in your kitchen work area and your main bathroom.
you also have to have an area for a roof hanging drying rack!! although we never installed one, the area is there and free.
you also have to have an area for a roof hanging drying rack!! although we never installed one, the area is there and free.
I can understand the logic behind some of the regs, but I really don't get that one.
annemarie482
07-Mar-11, 00:07
it's the whole green thing!
you have to mark on your house plans where the washing lines going to prove you'll have one, and the indoor one for rainy days! lol
And you would set aside a suitable sum of money to build a ramp in the future. A suitable amount being enough to cover the cost in say 30 years, and place in a trust that would be carried to any future owners of the house? :confused
Out of interest, I assume your building a house, what is the actual cost of the ramp v the total build cost?
Why would I do that? The cost of the ramp is irrelevant as is the ramp until I or my family are disabled.
Scarybiscuits03
07-Mar-11, 00:14
I dont understand all the upset over access ramps. I have one and it was a godsend when moving in (and out). What harm do they do apart from making your property more accessible to everyone and everything? As for the widened doorways - even better, most sofas/fridgefreezers wouldn't go through the old fashioned ones!..........What's the big deal? Surely if a member of your family became disabled you would appreeciate it then....
Scarybiscuits03
07-Mar-11, 00:18
Why would I do that? The cost of the ramp is irrelevant as is the ramp until I or my family are disabled.
So if one of your family became disabled then you would expect every other member that owned a property to go all out and have a ramp installed? I would find that more of an inconvenience than having one in the first place.......
I dont understand all the upset over access ramps. I have one and it was a godsend when moving in (and out). What harm do they do apart from making your property more accessible to everyone and everything? As for the widened doorways - even better, most sofas/fridgefreezers wouldn't go through the old fashioned ones!..........What's the big deal? Surely if a member of your family became disabled you would appreeciate it then....
What sort of price did you pay for the ramp
annemarie482
07-Mar-11, 00:24
the cost isn't seperatly priced david, when you approach a builder with your kit in mind when they price to wind and watertight it (blocks and roof included) the ramp price is included as it's considered as standard fitting.
it's the whole green thing!
you have to mark on your house plans where the washing lines going to prove you'll have one, and the indoor one for rainy days! lol
Indoor washing lines for rainy days-your kidding right!!
annemarie482
07-Mar-11, 00:27
fraid not!
it's just an area of roofspace in your utility were you "could" hang a roof drying rack!
crazy i know!
fraid not!
it's just an area of roofspace in your utility were you "could" hang a roof drying rack!
crazy i know!
U could also go for a disabled pee at the riverside in Thurso if their was proper access like a key from the Tourist Info Office. Closed on Sundays. Unbelievable.
I can almost guarantee that a ramp you can install in your new build for £200 will cost the council £5000 to retrofit :lol:
After a lengthy and costly tender process of course :eek:
Kevin Milkins
07-Mar-11, 02:10
Is this a local facility Kevin or is this a nation wide scheme ?, I ask as I am registered disabled and no one has offered/suggested getting a key.
I'm not sure how you would go about getting a key to start with, but I replaced the one my Mother-In-Law lost from this company,
Trade Economy Radar Keys. Pack of 50 (http://www.incontinencechoice.co.uk/product/trade-economy-radar-keys-pack-of-50-Bulk50ERK_PH.html)
From only: £49.94 Ex VAT
or £1.00 per key
Metalattakk
07-Mar-11, 04:26
I'm not sure how you would go about getting a key to start with, but I replaced the one my Mother-In-Law lost from this company,
Trade Economy Radar Keys. Pack of 50 (http://www.incontinencechoice.co.uk/product/trade-economy-radar-keys-pack-of-50-Bulk50ERK_PH.html)
From only: £49.94 Ex VAT
or £1.00 per key
The wife is a member of the RADAR Key Scheme, and she says the key was free, but the book that tells you where all the public toilets are cost a tenner. Seems it's now £15 (http://radar-shop.org.uk/Detail.aspx?id=44).
Oh, and our newly built house had to have ramp access to at least one door. There was no option to 'save money' by having steps instead. We pushed the boat out and had a ramp installed to both doors (the back door ramp is even twice as wide). Didn't cost us any extra. One of the better decisions the wife made for me. ;)
Aaldtimer
07-Mar-11, 04:30
"Their regulations" not ours then? no we would have been more sensible.
No David, they are not "their's" or "our's", they are just Regulations for the benefit of all.:roll:
northener
07-Mar-11, 07:49
Building regs are there for a reason, granted, however the same council who enforce the same regs as you allude to fail to open an office where the disabled can access a toilet-see previous posts.
Fair comment, but you have to start with access issues somewhere. New builds are the obvious answer.
TBH, there's a lot of jumping up and down over not very much going on in this thread.
At the end of the day, the ramp isn't there for the able-bodied at present, it's there to provide access for the less able-bodied at a future date. The same reasoning is behind having partially empty disabled parking bays. There will always be those who cannot see the point (see previous threads on here).
Comments about 'spoiling' the lines of the house don't really wash in many cases, (not a personal dig at anyone, before someone starts to get all indignant at me) given the absolute plague of featureless, soul-less, thoughtless, knocked-out, drab grey boxes that now infest our landscape in Caithness. I've never seen so many bloody ugly new builds in all my life.
A ramp is hardly going to convert them into shining beacons of harmony in a landscape.....
And as (Ducati?) said, retro fitting willl be a damn sight more expensive than taking up a miniscule percentage of a new-build budget. And who would the house owners be expecting to fund the retro fit?
Answers on a postcard to:
The Blatantly Obvious Answer
PO Box 1
Heilan' Cooncil.
Cough up and move on, folks.
orkneycadian
07-Mar-11, 11:48
Long past time that things got back to basics and let people be responsible for their own circumstances.
Exactly. It was not so many years ago here in Orkney that a number of community centres were going to have to be closed because they were not "disabled access compliant". So 98% or thereabouts of the community were going to lose the use of their long standing facility, so that the other 2% could make more use of it. I remember some people who are wheelchair bound saying that the whole saga was a great embrassment to them. Fortunately, common sense prevailed and reprieves were given against compulsory closures, with centres being given until their next revamp before the measures had to be introduced.
The same was going to happen top BBC Radio Orkney at one point as well. As the studio was up the stairs, they were told they would have to relocate or close down. Despite them saying they had no problem in taking their recording equipment out of teh studios to interview anyone in a wheelchair. The very fact you couldn't access the studios in a wheelchair caused all the fun.
Theres a cafe in Kirkwall where all the sandwiches, sausage rolls etc that you help yourself to has the lowest shelf about shin height, and the heighest shelf about waist height. Presumably so folk in wheelchairs can help themselves. I am not sure, I have never seen anyone in wheelchairs in there. What I have seen however is all the able bodied folk virtually on their hands and knees to see whats on offer on all the shelves.
Finally, I know of quite a lot of places in Orkney that have spent 10's of thousands on lifts and the like to be disabled compliant, but in 6 years or more, they have never been used once, because they are the type of establishment that doesn't have wheelchair bound visitors. Maybe someday they might, but in 6 years, there has not been a single one. It does beg the question how wise it is spending 10's of thousands on a lift that might get used once every 10 years.
Whilst wheelchair users should not be expressly blocked from access, some perspective is required, especially when 10's of thousands of pounds are to be spent on measures that might not be used.
The cost of the ramp is irrelevant as is the ramp until I or my family are disabled.
Well it must be relevant:
What sort of price did you pay for the ramp
On discussing ours with the builder he shrugs and said not much, couple of hundred quid. The cost, to them, at original building point is negligible. As ducati has pointed out the retro fit will be a lot more.
Also if you sell your house you will need to fit the ramp.
By the same logic I saved a few bob by not fitting my smoke & heat alarms as I do not intend to set fire to my house, but if I do I can fit them then.
It would cost less than half the price to install a disabled entrance in a new build than to come back and do it later and in some cases probably less than that.
How dare you point out something obvious and so "common sensical" on here. There is no room for these qualities on this board!!!!:D;)
The point here though is not about the common sense, or morality, or the initial outlay (£'s): it's about the choice of someone who is building and paying for the new house to choose what they want included, or not included in a the house or other biulding, (so long as not a public facility) that they choose to build......
It should not be the (sic) local councils remit to enforce upon the developer, that they pay for and include facilities that they do not need, nor want. Simples.....
The point here though is not about the common sense, or morality, or the initial outlay (£'s): it's about the choice of someone who is building and paying for the new house to choose what they want included, or not included in a the house or other biulding, (so long as not a public facility) that they choose to build......
It should not be the (sic) local councils remit to enforce upon the developer, that they pay for and include facilities that they do not need, nor want. Simples.....
I understand that that is the argument most people against the ramps believe in.
But where do you draw the line? Is it only for accessibility issues?
I grew up in a Dounreay house that didn't have a washbasin in the downstairs toilet. That would not be allowed on a new build.
It also had wired fuses, and no RCD's on the socket ringmains. That would not be allowed nowadays.
There's other, simpler, regulations also, depth of foundations etc.
Should people be allowed to ignore these too?
It should not be the (sic) local councils remit to enforce upon the developer, that they pay for and include facilities that they do not need, nor want. Simples.....
As theone has already pointed out, where do you draw the line?
It is fine to assume that in the case of person 'A' building a house they want this, that and the other. But you need a 'Standard'. There has to be a certain point where a house is usable, in a safe manner, to as many as possible. And the big thing to remember is if & when we sell a house, it will be expected to meet standards for it's age.
I paid a small fortune for fancy smanshy UPVC, energy 'efficient' eco friendly, blah blah blah windows. Only to be instructed by the 'council' to cut holes in all the ones that opened, for ventilation!!!! But that was the standard and that is what we needed to do.
Look at these ramps another way. We're all living longer now, so they tell us. But we're all still fallible to various ills and disorders, potentially there are going to be more people requiring ramps into their homes in the future.
When your neighbour needs one in a few years, and they can't pay for it, your happy to pay for these out of your own money to be retro fitted at potentially 10 or 20 times the cost?
Out of a building cost of possibly £80,000 (? for starters) people are worried about £200!!!
thebigman
11-Mar-11, 16:19
I'm not sure how you would go about getting a key to start with, but I replaced the one my Mother-In-Law lost from this company,
Trade Economy Radar Keys. Pack of 50 (http://www.incontinencechoice.co.uk/product/trade-economy-radar-keys-pack-of-50-Bulk50ERK_PH.html)
From only: £49.94 Ex VAT
or £1.00 per key
Give the Council Service Point a shout and they'll advise you.
annemarie482
25-Mar-11, 14:42
talking of the planning deciding EVERYTHING about your house......
just recieved a letter today
(house is now 2 years old)
telling me our planning permission does not include landscaping! ie: my garden!!
of course the plot is ours, and on the planning etc,
but we now have to get planning of landscaping so we can have grass etc!!!!
so in submitting the new plans,
i have to mark every plant planted with a colour key code as to what type of plant/tree it is!!!
and it has to be something "natural" to our environment.
i was also told that they "suggest" i plant hedgerow all round as you need to have a "proper" barrier around your plot,a fence doesnt count!and i'm not allowed to plant anything within 3 metres from the road for visability.
have you ever heard the likes?!!!
tell you what council planning office......you wanna come decorate the house for me too eh!!!!!
talking of the planning deciding EVERYTHING about your house......
just recieved a letter today
(house is now 2 years old)
telling me our planning permission does not include landscaping! ie: my garden!!
of course the plot is ours, and on the planning etc,
but we now have to get planning of landscaping so we can have grass etc!!!!
so in submitting the new plans,
i have to mark every plant planted with a colour key code as to what type of plant/tree it is!!!
and it has to be something "natural" to our environment.
i was also told that they "suggest" i plant hedgerow all round as you need to have a "proper" barrier around your plot,a fence doesnt count!and i'm not allowed to plant anything within 3 metres from the road for visability.
have you ever heard the likes?!!!
tell you what council planning office......you wanna come decorate the house for me too eh!!!!!
Thats unbelievable! Sure its not a wind up?
annemarie482
25-Mar-11, 17:46
fraid not :(
i have here a letter from the council.
and i phoned the planning officer it came from to which he told me the details.
what a joke eh?!!
fraid not :(
i have here a letter from the council.
and i phoned the planning officer it came from to which he told me the details.
what a joke eh?!!
So what happens with the completion certificate then? Can hardly believe this nonsense. You sure Mconnachies not been up to his old tricks!
annemarie482
25-Mar-11, 18:17
lol david!!
the house is done and dusted, signed off the lot.
i can hardly belive after this long they can ask for this!
they wanted me to put in a new planning application (which i refused to do!) and are now allowing me to "add" to our original plans.
i know this is the case for new builds now but thought we'd have been told about it when we started planning if this would affect us back then.
sneaky stuff [disgust]
anyway i've done the plan now and will put it in monday.
lol david!!
the house is done and dusted, signed off the lot.
i can hardly belive after this long they can ask for this!
they wanted me to put in a new planning application (which i refused to do!) and are now allowing me to "add" to our original plans.
i know this is the case for new builds now but thought we'd have been told about it when we started planning if this would affect us back then.
sneaky stuff [disgust]
anyway i've done the plan now and will put it in monday.
Can't really see how all this works though, so you plant all these local species and then someone gifts you some exotic species from Durness, do you just bin it? I get the bit about the distance from the road but the rest seems daft. I can't see how they can ever police it.
annemarie482
25-Mar-11, 18:47
i dont think they will police it ( i hope) i think you just have to have it on the plans.
to be honest i think it's so if your gardens a tip they can come out with their wee book of planning permission and force you to do it up to match.
i dont think they will police it ( i hope) i think you just have to have it on the plans.
to be honest i think it's so if your gardens a tip they can come out with their wee book of planning permission and force you to do it up to match.
Still a load of old Bhudlias!
Wonder what would happen if I bought your house and did not keep the garden as per your design - wonder what the council and planning could do or would do?
I have changed every garden area where I have lived - same as you change decor I think, your plans are not to everyone elses liking.
I know what I would be telling them if they came near me after house planning and buildings had all been passed - take a long hike off a short pier, you had your chance of doing your job correctly, the house has been passed - tough.
Wonder what would happen if I bought your house and did not keep the garden as per your design - wonder what the council and planning could do or would do?
I have changed every garden area where I have lived - same as you change decor I think, your plans are not to everyone elses liking.
I know what I would be telling them if they came near me after house planning and buildings had all been passed - take a long hike off a short pier, you had your chance of doing your job correctly, the house has been passed - tough.
Valid point.
annemarie482
25-Mar-11, 19:40
Wonder what would happen if I bought your house and did not keep the garden as per your design - wonder what the council and planning could do or would do?
I have changed every garden area where I have lived - same as you change decor I think, your plans are not to everyone elses liking.
I know what I would be telling them if they came near me after house planning and buildings had all been passed - take a long hike off a short pier, you had your chance of doing your job correctly, the house has been passed - tough.
totally agree pat!!!
ridiculous.
it's like they were trying to get extra money out us for re-doing the planning permission.
a big fail then :L
wonder if anyone else has recieved a letter about this?
annemarie482
25-Mar-11, 19:46
maybe if someone complained your garden was a mess they'd come in waggling the landscaping plan under your nose forcing you to fix it pat?! i've no idea.
if they are going to force us to put hedging around the plot then i reckon they should supply some funding towards it!!!
as we all know plants certainly aren't cheap let alone over half an acre's edging to fill in!!
Does not say how big the hedging has to be - you can cut leaf size cuttings and wait for them to grow!
You have still planted a hedge.
If they want to take it further ask for funding as you complied with the planning permission granted at the time of building - their mistake, you are bending over backwards to help THEM rectify THEIR mistake so if they want a large hedge they will have to pay for it!!!!
They will then complain in a couple of years time of the hedge being too tall - you have to cut it to give clear road view access.
I would definitely tell them to stuff it - you have had it passed, end of story.
Time the council got some of its own areas into order first before hounding folk who did accordin g to their wishes at the time.
talking of the planning deciding EVERYTHING about your house......
just recieved a letter today
(house is now 2 years old)
telling me our planning permission does not include landscaping! ie: my garden!!
of course the plot is ours, and on the planning etc,
but we now have to get planning of landscaping so we can have grass etc!!!!
so in submitting the new plans,
i have to mark every plant planted with a colour key code as to what type of plant/tree it is!!!
and it has to be something "natural" to our environment.
i was also told that they "suggest" i plant hedgerow all round as you need to have a "proper" barrier around your plot,a fence doesnt count!and i'm not allowed to plant anything within 3 metres from the road for visability.
have you ever heard the likes?!!!
tell you what council planning office......you wanna come decorate the house for me too eh!!!!!
Yes I have heard the likes as I've been targeted too!!!
My house was built just after yours and I got one too. Seemingly there's a door in my garage that's not on their plan(but it's on mine and stamped in their office 24.06.08) and that's classed as breach of planning. I am not maintaining the tarmac driveway yet I've only been in the house 10 months. They want me to cut the field strainer to 0.9m in height so it doesn't block my visability yet I've been coming out of the same driveway for 29 years and never had a problem. There will be major problem when the cattle step over the fence because its too low. My planning also stated that I required a drop kerb at the road but the building contractors were told at the time "not to bother with it" with result stones and surface water is coming into the driveway and that is also a problem now. Likewise I have to apply for planning permission for landscaping yet mine is natural to my environment, the same grass which is growing at the other side of the fence. I don't want hedges, plants etc so why should I have to have them? Got 28 days to get plan in or enforcement notice going to be served on me! Makes you wonder was it worth building, if I had time back would have stayed where I was!!!
annemarie482
30-Mar-11, 15:55
i'm kinda glad to here we aren't the only ones crofter!! lol
what a joke eh?! [evil]
absolutely ridiculous. and believe me i made very clear to the planning officer my thought on the situation!!! lol
i'm yet to hear if they come back around to inspect the landscaping plans against whats actually there, would be interesting to know.
i reckon if they are going to enforce hedging they should either provide it, or help financially with buying it with a grand or such like.
i'm still annoyed that this is being brought up 2 years after planning consent etc. [disgust]
are you having to pay for a new planning application? i stood my ground and refused, and we are being allowed to add a new plan to our existing plan free of charge ;)
annemarie482
30-Mar-11, 16:18
[QUOTE=crofter;835637]Likewise I have to apply for planning permission for landscaping yet mine is natural to my environment, the same grass which is growing at the other side of the fence. QUOTE]
that was part of my argument also!
i was told they dont want everyones gardens looking like another part of the field!!! [evil]
I'm just glad that we finished building before all these new regulations came into force! We don't have a permanent ramp, but bought 2 portable ones through Motability, which the council accepted. They hang in the garage, and can come out for use as and when needed.
As for landscaping! I'd tell them where to go, unless they were going to maintain your garden for free!
i'm kinda glad to here we aren't the only ones crofter!! lol
what a joke eh?! [evil]
absolutely ridiculous. and believe me i made very clear to the planning officer my thought on the situation!!! lol
i'm yet to hear if they come back around to inspect the landscaping plans against whats actually there, would be interesting to know.
i reckon if they are going to enforce hedging they should either provide it, or help financially with buying it with a grand or such like.
i'm still annoyed that this is being brought up 2 years after planning consent etc. [disgust]
are you having to pay for a new planning application? i stood my ground and refused, and we are being allowed to add a new plan to our existing plan free of charge ;)
Funny you should say that as I thought it was me on my own being picked on and I felt better when I read your post. I sent him an email asking why the completion certificate was signed in Oct 2009 when the planning clearly stated that before it could be issued the drop kerb must be done and the garden landscaping must also have been passed by planning. He never answered why so I sent another asking again so he emailed me back to phone him. At the end of the day it was Highland Council who told the building contractor not to bother with the kerb and now that it's a problem it's my fault. Yes they are want me to pay for a new planning application but at least I know to do what you did and refuse.
[QUOTE=crofter;835637]Likewise I have to apply for planning permission for landscaping yet mine is natural to my environment, the same grass which is growing at the other side of the fence. QUOTE]
that was part of my argument also!
i was told they dont want everyones gardens looking like another part of the field!!! [evil]
Different if we had built in a housing estate but at the end of the day we both built our houses in an agricultural field in the country with no immediate neighbours except cows and sheep and I'm sure they are happy with our gardens.
roadbowler
30-Mar-11, 20:52
annemarie... well done for standing your ground. However, if the landscaping was not already included on your planning consent as a condition you DO NOT need to add anything! Planning permission is only required for "development".
"the use of any buildings or other land within the curtilage of a dwellinghouse for any purpose incidental to the enjoyment of the dwellinghouse as such does NOT involve development."
Frankly, I think they were trying to get you to give them money! You refused so, now are asking you to add a condition to a planning consent. eeehhhmmm, this is like buying a car, completing payment and two years later being asked for more money and you signing a piece of paper saying aye, I'll give you more money! The deal is done. They have a point about plantings close to a major road perhaps but they are still too late to impose a new condition and, as it says above they cannot require you to add anything to your existing permission in regards to what you do within the curtilage of your dwelling for your enjoyment. ie. garden!!! unless... you agreed to these conditions when the planning consent was first given! Ask them where in the legislation it says you must apply for planning permission for your garden of your dwellinghouse! They can't because it isna there! lol Then ask them if you are breaching a condition of your planning consent and ask if there is a clause in the consent that says they reserve the right to add conditions at anytime to your consent. If they canna, tell them tough cookies and remind them that making mischief in their contracts is an offence.
The only way a planning authority can of their own initiative impose conditions on the continuance of an existing lawful use of land is by way of a Discontinuance Order! Don't worry about that, they won't and canna do it over a hawthorn tree and a lawn. This is something they do to evict grannies from their homes to make way for swimming pools.
crofter - you didna get an answer to your question because completion certificates issued under building regulations have nothing to do with whether you have complied with all the conditions of your planning consent.
[crofter - you didna get an answer to your question because completion certificates issued under building regulations have nothing to do with whether you have complied with all the conditions of your planning consent.[/QUOTE]
Why when the planning permission states that the drop edge kerb is required before occupation of the property will be allowed.
You cannot occupy a new property without a completion certificate. The planning actually states that Highland Council must approve the landscape BEFORE any building can commence. Still don't see why it justifies ignoring my question would it not be proper procedure to answer exactly as you did?
roadbowler
01-Apr-11, 13:40
Yes I have heard the likes as I've been targeted too!!!
My house was built just after yours and I got one too. Seemingly there's a door in my garage that's not on their plan(but it's on mine and stamped in their office 24.06.08) and that's classed as breach of planning. I am not maintaining the tarmac driveway yet I've only been in the house 10 months. They want me to cut the field strainer to 0.9m in height so it doesn't block my visability yet I've been coming out of the same driveway for 29 years and never had a problem. There will be major problem when the cattle step over the fence because its too low. My planning also stated that I required a drop kerb at the road but the building contractors were told at the time "not to bother with it" with result stones and surface water is coming into the driveway and that is also a problem now. Likewise I have to apply for planning permission for landscaping yet mine is natural to my environment, the same grass which is growing at the other side of the fence. I don't want hedges, plants etc so why should I have to have them? Got 28 days to get plan in or enforcement notice going to be served on me! Makes you wonder was it worth building, if I had time back would have stayed where I was!!!
Ok, here is my opinion (not advice!) on the matter. Your straining post has been there for 29 years? Lol well, permitted development allows fences, gates and walls within 20 meters of a road if they are 1 meter in height or less. (To nitpick, their requirement of it being cut down to 0.9 meters exceeds what would be necessary anyway, the legislation actually says it is not to exceed 1 meter! - Town and country planning general permitted development order 1992, schedule 1, part 2, class 7(2)(a)) If it has been there for 29 years, even if it is over a meter, it is lawful development and they cannot take enforcement action in respect of it. The prescribed period of limitation for building (building means "any erection or structure") or "other" operations is 4 years, therefore, your straining post is immune from enforcement provided this wasn't a condition too?! . (town and country planning scotland act 1997 s. 124 (1)):-p
Right, they have imposed the drop kerb before occupancy as an actual condition on the permission. Slightly different than what I thought you meant earlier. See what you can sort out with it.
A word about the threats, lets rationalise them, sure, they could serve an enforcement notice because they are alleging you are breaching the conditions of the permission. However, take note that government guidance and the councils own guidance (see Highland Enforcement Charter) says it is unreasonable to take enforcement action for a trivial breach of planning control and/or to simply to regularise development.
No, they will not serve a notice in 28 days as this is not a delegated decision. They would be required by legitimate expectation to notify you that they were taking the issue to the planning committee and would have to actually seek approval from the full planning committee which meets once a monthish. As the Committee would be acting as a quasi-judicial body, (quasi-judicial because this decision is going to determine whether or not you can be prosecuted as a criminal legally speaking!) you have a right to appear to contest the action and be given a fair chance to state your case and give evidence to the Committee by virtue of Article 6 of the HRA 1998. So, bit more to it than they like to make out!
Enforcement is a threat that planning authorities use a lot to bully people, i say bully because most of these threats have no real planning purpose basis yet, it usually gets them what they are after too, usually fee collection IMO. The reality of the situation is that highland hardly ever serve these notices as it really isna just a matter of serving a notice like they like to make out, there are lots of legal considerations and implications to evaluate, like first and foremost they are required under the legislation to have sound reasons of "expediency" of taking such action (is it harming public amenity or the environment unacceptably? because a breach of planning control itself is NOT an offence and it is NOT enough on its own to legitimately serve such a notice; there must be expediency. TCPSA 1997 s.127 (1)(a) and (b)) before they should even be thinking about doing it and when they do serve them and people challenge them the council seem to have a bad habit of losing appeals to these notices.
In your case, they may and probably will make further threats of prosecution and huge fines, well, pertaining to prosecution, here is some trivia to consider. The procurator fiscal would laugh in their faces if they attempted to prosecute for a straining post, garage door, a drop kerb and refusal to plant a hedge! This is understandable as it clearly would not be in the interests of the public nevermind a huge waste of public money. Most people aren't aware that in planning prosecution cases, less than 50 percent of cases submitted to the Procurator Fiscal are even taken up and of those just under 80 percent are successfully prosecuted. They will only prosecute in most cases if you are making money off the back of breaches and the fine would reflect this or if it was apparent you were causing serious harm to the environment or public amenity. Sure, they can fine people up to £20,000 when you are prosecuted successfully. But, nobody yet has ever been fined that amount! Most fines are less than £1000 and rarely exceed a few hundred. Last year, new legislation gave planning authorities the power to serve Fixed Penalty Notices of £2000 for failure to comply with an enforcement notice. The interesting part is there is no requirement to pay it! Payment of this fine only buys you out of the chance of prosecution. Well, see statistics above again. Bottom line is, the planning authorities remit is to exercise their duties and powers under the planning legislation to protect the enviroment and public amenity. I don't see how any of their complaints against you qualify the threats they are making over it.
As for this landscaping. I've heard a lot of people complaining of the same thing and have looked into it a bit. My opinion based on the facts is this. S. 159 of the 1997 act imposes a "duty" on planning authorities to ensure, "wherever it is appropriate", that in granting of planning permission for any development, adequate provision is made, by the impostion of conditions, for the preservation and planting of trees. Conditions can also require you to maintain these trees as well. They can only require you to plant the trees beforehand if the consent is for a change of use. This is for trees, not shrubs or other plants. There is a distinction and case law to the effect. This could be where the landscaping thing comes in or see bottom of paragragh. It shouldn't really be applied as a blanket either. All the same, if they impose conditions and people do not challenge the conditions, the conditions stand. That being said, the conditions in the permission should always be supported by reasons. Bog standard, vague reasons really are not good enough. Each condition should be explained by reasons relating to the special circumstances of your "planning unit". So, note, the legislation itself says that the condition must be placed on the permission for the development they granted to you. Nothing about requiring you to make a new application as far as I have seen. Or, look to see if there is a condition about approval for "reserved matters" as well, landscaping could have been required here as well.
Frankly, I think its mischievous nevermind onerous with a high probabability of being completely erroneous to be asking you to submit an additional application and fee (how much? btw) for landscaping your garden ground after the fact. If its not in the original conditions on the permission I believe you are in a good position to decline. The permission is to be construed using the four corner rule. If it isna within the four corners of the permission document and you have implemented that permission you can now take advantage of your permitted development rights and development exceptions contained in the legislation. One of which is, within the "curtilage" of your dwelling you can use any buildings and use that land how you wish provided it is "incidental to the enjoyment of the dwelling". (This is found at section 26 (2)(a) in the town and country planning scotland act 1997) Ask them where in the legislation it requires you to apply for permission for your garden or the land of the curtilage in your dwelling. When I say ask them, I mean make sure you are speaking with an RTPI certified Planner, not one of their so-called support officers who are clueless with regards to planning legislation. Highland have lots of these and they try to pass themselves off as planners and they are not. Naughty is this, as they are agents of the principal and when they attempt to exercise authority and do not understand the legislation that gives them that authority, they lose any authority they thought they had and arguably, so may the principal. Even with a certified planner you are still only getting their "interpretation", ask another at a different office if you are unsatisfied and look at the legislation and make your own mind up.
The garage door. Again, the permission is to be construed using the four corner rule. If you have a stamped and approved plan with the garage door on it with your permission, that will be good enough for any rational person.
(anything between "" denotes a minefield!)
Sandyr1- I concur, wholeheartedly. People need to start putting their foot down.
burstbucker
01-Apr-11, 14:04
I thought this thread was about access ramps?
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