View Full Version : Fat tax?
I understand the government are thinking about introducing a fat tax - extra taxation on food items according to fat and sugar content, in order to pay for the extra cost of treating obese people on the NHS. It's a radical step, but surely something has to be done to defuse this potential time bomb? Apparently it is costing hospitals millions extra to provide stronger operating tables and beds and suchlike for heavy people!
It would probably mean a Mars Bar will cost at least £1, and £12 for a Big Mac!
What do folk think?
why dont the lower the cost of healthy foods so that people can afford to buy them, the prices of healthy food is ridicoulas, i know cos it costs me a fortune each week in shopping[disgust]
j4bberw0ck
28-Aug-06, 21:31
I understand the government are thinking about introducing a fat tax
They might be thinking about it but they'll never do it. It's been mooted before. Jack the price of sweets and junk food - which includes almost all breakfast cereals - up as radically as you describe, and the government loses the next election.
It's not in a politician's lying nature to lose elections. Anyway, we've too many taxes in this country as it is.
I'm not saying it's a bad idea, just unworkable. But there are 900,000 civil servants to keep busy, so someone, somewhere, will be thinking about it and preparing a briefing paper. :lol:
I think the idea would be to bring this in after the election, once we've forgotten the manifesto.
I think the idea would be to bring this in after the election, once we've forgotten the manifesto.
Judging by the physical size of the cabinet, Prescott et al, I think they will end up being out of favor, out of office and out of pocket in that case...
webmannie
28-Aug-06, 23:00
whoooeee, I read the topic and broke into a sweat, thought us fatties were going to have to pay an extra tax for being obese!!
why dont the lower the cost of healthy foods so that people can afford to buy them, the prices of healthy food is ridicoulas, i know cos it costs me a fortune each week in shopping[disgust]
Exactly. Healthy food seem to be on the higher side of the price scale. For people on a low income, fatty sausages are cheaper than lean steak!
mass produced cakes full of additives are cheaper that freshly baked ones.
I'm afraid that slapping on a fat tax won't reduce the price of the others.
the problem with having a fat tax is its not just the obese who have to pay its also the people who have no weight problems. This begs the question why should the skinny have to pay for the fat, there are a lot of people out there with limited incomes and every year their incomes are hit with various stealth taxes. The solution to the problem is everyone should pay the same tax rate right accross the board, stop immigrants pouring into the country feeding off of our social security system, and i believe that eventually the chancellors coffers would have enough money to balance the books so the british people can have their health and education and whatever without having to tax our food..
Sorry re cost of fresh food I really have to disagree. I feed my family of five with a limited budget on as healthy food as I can. I get my fresh veg out of Lidls where it is much cheaper. I use more fresh meat now than I ever did (Think Jaimie Oliver and his Turkey Twizzlers) and don't find the cost that high.
My children get plain cereals as I object to all the added sugar in the ones advertised for children. I eat porridge with fresh/dried fruit.
I rarely give my family desserts but always have yoghurts in the fridge, my only real vices are Jaffa cakes and Pepsi Max (also cheaper in Lidls).
, stop immigrants pouring into the country feeding off of our social security system, and i believe that eventually the chancellors coffers would have enough money to balance the books so the british people can have their health and education and whatever without having to tax our food..
There was some research discussed recently which showed that the large numbers of immigrants into the UK from the accession countries were in work, single and didnt claim benefits. In fact of the 427,000 people coming in from the accession countries only about 700 were claiming "social security". Hardly feeding off it then
Sorry re cost of fresh food I really have to disagree. I feed my family of five with a limited budget on as healthy food as I can. I get my fresh veg out of Lidls where it is much cheaper. I use more fresh meat now than I ever did (Think Jaimie Oliver and his Turkey Twizzlers) and don't find the cost that high.
My children get plain cereals as I object to all the added sugar in the ones advertised for children. I eat porridge with fresh/dried fruit.
I rarely give my family desserts but always have yoghurts in the fridge, my only real vices are Jaffa cakes and Pepsi Max (also cheaper in Lidls).
I agree mccaugm - i too manage a healthy diet off a limited budget and without a doubt buying fresh ingredients and cooking your meals rather than buying ready prepared meals is a million times cheaper. toast, cereal or fruit is a much cheaper way for hte kids to snack than chocolate buiscuits or crisps.
Dry frying mince before making your dish reduces the amount of fat in it and taking advantage of the freezer and the two for the price of one offers always helps
Kingetter
29-Aug-06, 10:49
"Jack Sprat could eat no fat
His wife could eat no lean
And so betwixt the two of them
They licked the platter clean
Jack ate all the lean,
Joan ate all the fat.
The bone they picked it clean,
Then gave it to the cat ..."
So where does that leave the majority of people?
There was some research discussed recently which showed that the large numbers of immigrants into the UK from the accession countries were in work, single and didnt claim benefits. In fact of the 427,000 people coming in from the accession countries only about 700 were claiming "social security". Hardly feeding off it then
the chancelor( according to the daily express) is planing to give £10000 gifts to migrants i wonder how many pensioners could benifit from that kind of gift? also research has shown that east european migrants are wanting to come to britian purely for its generous health and social security system and for the tax credits which they can use to buy houses back home. Our country is looking after its immigrants better than its own born and bred citizens and at the expence of the tax paying public...
I understand the government are thinking about introducing a fat tax - extra taxation on food items according to fat and sugar content, in order to pay for the extra cost of treating obese people on the NHS. It's a radical step, but surely something has to be done to defuse this potential time bomb? Apparently it is costing hospitals millions extra to provide stronger operating tables and beds and suchlike for heavy people!
It would probably mean a Mars Bar will cost at least £1, and £12 for a Big Mac!
What do folk think?
Nahhh - this has got to be a wind up. How much tax can a person pay?? with Council Tax- VAT- Income Tax etc ....how much of a percentage overall does a weekly or month wage go out in tax?
the chancelor( according to the daily express) is planing to give £10000 gifts to migrants i wonder how many pensioners could benifit from that kind of gift? also research has shown that east european migrants are wanting to come to britian purely for its generous health and social security system and for the tax credits which they can use to buy houses back home. Our country is looking after its immigrants better than its own born and bred citizens and at the expence of the tax paying public...
I understand that this "gift" is around child and working families tax credit. Most of the 470 odd thousand migrants i mentioned are single and have no dependents with them and therefore will not qualify for these tax credits. Out of the 470 000 migrant workers there have been 27000 applications received for child benefit. Only if the applicant gets child benefit will they get child tax credits or working families tax credits so its logical to assume that 27 000 families out of 470 000 are getting the tax credits which equates to about 6% i think and actually this isnt a gift - they have to work and pay tax to get this and they are entitled to it as EU citizens.
I understand that this "gift" is around child and working families tax credit. Most of the 470 odd thousand migrants i mentioned are single and have no dependents with them and therefore will not qualify for these tax credits. Out of the 470 000 migrant workers there have been 27000 applications received for child benefit. Only if the applicant gets child benefit will they get child tax credits or working families tax credits so its logical to assume that 27 000 families out of 470 000 are getting the tax credits which equates to about 6% i think and actually this isnt a gift - they have to work and pay tax to get this and they are entitled to it as EU citizens.
as i said our country is looking after its immigrants better than its own born and bred...
I get tax credits maverick and so do many people who are "our own born and bred". If we are ENTITLED to it then we get it - if we arent ENTITLED to it we dont. ENTITLEMENT is the same wherever you come from or whoever you are. I am not being treated any differently to a migrant worker and they arent treated any differently to me
So what's your point?
Billy Boy
30-Aug-06, 19:31
if i were to get fat taxed lol,i would be charged more for high, rear end emissions[lol]
my point is this i have 2 elderly relations who have worked all their lives and have been fortunate enough to never know unemployment. both have suffered major strokes one still has mobility the other has none, both get very little in the way of finacial assistance from our government. both fought in the second world war for our freedom and to keep the invaders from our shores. Their reward for defending their country is a pittance to live on, deemed by our government to lie on the scrapheep of our society. So how do you think they feel when they hear about the chancellors proposals to hand out money to foriegn nationals and how people can get money for just coming to live here and how their taxes are helping to fund said immigration and how funds are put together to assist minority groups come to our country. The only assistance they got was from the Earl Haig fund for war veterans a charity not even a government organisation but a charity. If Gordon Brown gets his way he will even tax the food they would eat. Both of these men have paid into the system all of their working lives and still pay tax on their savings and for what? these men fought side by side and put their lives on the line yesterday so you can get your tax credits today. The debt we owe these men and others like them can never be repaid. The suffering endured by them during the second world war was something that i never witnessed but the suffering endured by them each day is difficult to stomach. Recently i read of a polish family who came here to work got their tax credit allowance and went back to poland and bought their house with it. The social security system was i believe as was the tax credit system designed to help british people not foriegn nationals who want to come here just for a fast buck.. Once again i say our government looks after immigrants better than its own born and bred..
I am sorry for the struggles that your relatives are having just now. I had similar problems when my parents in law were ill and needing support. I too was very angry and upset but you are targetting your blame in the wrong place. Immigrants and the tax credit system are not to blame for the pensioners problems.
The Government makes much of its pledge to eradicate Child Poverty and the tax credit system - whilst it has had problems with delivery is much better than its predecessors - Family Credit and Family Income Supplement. They Government also has a pledge to take pensioners out of poverty but this is more difficult to resolve I think. I dont pretend to have the solutions but there are a variety of issues
Firstly you have the reluctance of pensioners to claim what they are entitled to. In fact it is a shocking state when something like 28% of pensioners do not claim what they are due to claim and whilst some inroads have been made into this it is the responsibility of the government to ensure that pensioners get what they are entitled to in EVERY case. They are still failing on this. Add to this the severing of the link between pensions and earnings by the last conservative government and you see there is a short fall of around £50 between what pensions are now and what they might have been had that link still existed.
This government also introduced the Minimum Income Guarantee which did make some difference although not to everyone. One of the problems is where the person has savings that takes them out of the bracket for any financial help they may only be just above the cut off but if they are thats it - they wont get any help. Many pensioners are reluctant to dip into their savings because it is all they have for leaving behind.
Finally - your house buying pole may exist he may not, however fiddling or playing the system is not exclusive to immigrants. I knew a guy who had four kids and claimed Income support had his rent and council tax paid for him, free school dinners, and went off on holiday to America - turns out he had a day job and an evening job too - bringing home £275.00 per week on top of his benefits - he was born and bred here. I have a million more stories like that.
The best thing i can say to you Maverick is that you need to make ABSOLUTELY sure that your relatives are claiming EVERYTHNIG they are entitled to. There are people at the benefits Agency that will hep withthis and the Counsil has Welfare Rights Officers also the Citizens Advice bureau is able to help with this. However, despite your anger and the worry you are going through just now immigrants are not
pouring into the country feeding off of our social security system, and therefore are not to blame for the inequalities in our society
immigrants .... are not to blame for the inequalities in our society
but they must have a role to play in it though? You say 427,000 have entered this country? How many are claiming unemployment benefit in this country? What is the ratio to this and do you think it is significant? Also how do you answer Landmarker's charge that immigrants seem to be disproportionally committing more crime than Britons? It seems an intractable truth doesn't it, no matter how vile his comments may have been?
The knock on effect is that more well off people are buying up properties in the quieter areas of the UK just to escape from it all, thus pushing up house prices and causing local people to move out of their own area. Is that not an inequality?
I am convinced that the recent expansion of the EU was a tad premature.
EDIT, I also see that EU members can vote in local and General elections if they have an address here, I was rather surprised at that. Now I know that we are living in a Federal Europe.
I think this thread has gone a little west of the issue. The issue is the possibility of tax on certain foods,i think this would be a disasterous measure to take because its not the food that makes people obese it the quantity that is consumed that causes obesity, there is a saying that if you dont put fuel on the fire it wont burn, the same can be said of our eating if you consume more calories than you burn then there is every possibility that you are going to have a weight gain. taxing food is not the answer to pay for the health treatment needed for obese people. everybody should be ENTITLED to health care regardless of race creed colour or religion or weight. My argument is that we as a nation should be looking after our own and i believe that if we stopped the amount of immigrants coming here and claiming benefits whether it be social security or tax credits and taking jobs then the social security buget which i believe is the biggest drain on the tax payer could be cut and used to fund health and education which is the 2 main areas needed to tackle obesity...
I am not a racist person and i was very liberal about people coming to live in britian, but now with the current political situation, where people who come from other countries form minority groups and then tell us that they are not happy about the way we are living our lives and that we are going to have to change to accomodate them and the stories of people who are coming here with large families and haven't a hope of getting a job that will support them but the know that our welfare system will take care of it for them . Also i find it very strange that people can come here to fill shortages in the workplace i believe that if we gave our own people the necessary training the we wouldn't need to import labour. We run a real danger of it becoming such that employers won't be looking at british kids for jobs they will just import them from another country. Look whats happened to our agricultural industry the supermarkets make more profit from cheap produced beef than our own and the fishing industry is kaput in fact most of our industries are knackered because the powers that be have allowed other countries to come here with their cheap and nasty products the only thing that all governments have been good at is taxing the british people..... and whats worse we just accept it.
everybody should be ENTITLED to health care regardless of race creed colour or religion or weight. . As a somewhat fat wee wifie i absolutely agree with that
My argument is that we as a nation should be looking after our own and i believe that if we stopped the amount of immigrants coming here and claiming benefits whether it be social security or tax credits and taking jobs then the social security buget which i believe is the biggest drain on the tax payer could be cut and used to fund health and education which is the 2 main areas needed to tackle obesity... .
My response to your previous posts was to show that your assumption that it is immigration which is to blame for the social security budget being overspent is not correct. The figures i quoted show that only small minority of immigrants rely on social security benefits and therefore removing them from the mix would not release a huge amount of money.
I am not a racist person and i was very liberal about people coming to live in britian, but now with the current political situation, where people who come from other countries form minority groups and then tell us that they are not happy about the way we are living our lives and that we are going to have to change to accomodate them and the stories of people who are coming here with large families and haven't a hope of getting a job that will support them but the know that our welfare system will take care of it for them ..
This is the same old argument that has been rolled out over the last fifty years about black pakistani bangladeshi vietnamese and now east europeans. It gains nothing from being repeated over and over and over. It has been shown to be incorrect many times and shows a lack of understanding about the benefit system and the type of immigration happening now.
Also i find it very strange that people can come here to fill shortages in the workplace i believe that if we gave our own people the necessary training the we wouldn't need to import labour. We run a real danger of it becoming such that employers won't be looking at british kids for jobs they will just import them from another country. Look whats happened to our agricultural industry the supermarkets make more profit from cheap produced beef than our own and the fishing industry is kaput in fact most of our industries are knackered because the powers that be have allowed other countries to come here with their cheap and nasty products the only thing that all governments have been good at is taxing the british people..... and whats worse we just accept it.
In many areas there is such low unemployment that employers cannot fill their vacancies. In Caithness that maybe is not the case although hotel and kitchen vacancies have been hard to fill for pretty much the last ten years. In Inverness the unemployment rate is 2% or thereabouts in Aberdeenshire it is 1%. Without these migrant workers we would not be able to fill vacancies and this would really impact on places where there is an economic boom like Inverness. I agree that Farming and Fishing are having real problems for a variety of reasons but i dont think that this is either caused by or prolonged by immigration.
As for being off topic - as i have simply responded to your posts and addressed the issues around taxation as you see them i am not certain that this is off topic
but they must have a role to play in it though? You say 427,000 have entered this country? How many are claiming unemployment benefit in this country? What is the ratio to this and do you think it is significant? Also how do you answer Landmarker's charge that immigrants seem to be disproportionally committing more crime than Britons? It seems an intractable truth doesn't it, no matter how vile his comments may have been?
The knock on effect is that more well off people are buying up properties in the quieter areas of the UK just to escape from it all, thus pushing up house prices and causing local people to move out of their own area. Is that not an inequality?
I am convinced that the recent expansion of the EU was a tad premature.
EDIT, I also see that EU members can vote in local and General elections if they have an address here, I was rather surprised at that. Now I know that we are living in a Federal Europe.
See i am struggling here Rheghead - the only infomration i can find on legal "immigrants" commiting crime comes fromthe BNP website which to me is biased or from a black activists website which is biased the other way:roll: There appears to be information on illegal immigrants committing crime but thats a different issue if you ask me. There is also information on the number of Black or asian people in prison which is said to be disproportionately high but does not determine whther these inmates are britishborn or immigrants.
If you look at the causes of crime in general what you see is that crime is often linked to poverty and deprivation, poor educational acheivement and social isolation. A lack of a sense of community and a poor social cohesion also allows crime to flourish. Poor parenting is a contributor as is lack of employment opportunities. Seems to me that HERE is where action needs to be taken - stopping immigration will not address these issues in itself. also i find saying that immigrants cause inequlaity is difficult to fathom. If you are suggesting we look carefully at how we house and educate refugees and asylum seekers to avoid creating areas where there is little or no social cohesion between groups of asylum seekers then it seems that they are victims of inequality rather than the cause.
The housing issue is different i tend to beleive that people are selling up and moving to quieter areas because of the money they can end up with in their pocket or the opportunity to live mortgage free rather than runnign froma tide of east european immigrants.
And the voting thing is no different than anywhere else in the EU - my parents and now my sister live in France and they can and do vote in the elections there too
See i am struggling here Rheghead - the only infomration i can find on legal "immigrants" commiting crime comes fromthe BNP website which to me is biased or from a black activists website which is biased the other way:roll: There appears to be information on illegal immigrants committing crime but thats a different issue if you ask me. There is also information on the number of Black or asian people in prison which is said to be disproportionately high but does not determine whther these inmates are britishborn or immigrants.
If you look at the causes of crime in general what you see is that crime is often linked to poverty and deprivation, poor educational acheivement and social isolation. A lack of a sense of community and a poor social cohesion also allows crime to flourish. Poor parenting is a contributor as is lack of employment opportunities. Seems to me that HERE is where action needs to be taken - stopping immigration will not address these issues in itself.how immigrants can be said to Cause inequlaity is difficult to fathom. If you are suggesting we look carefully at how we house and educate refugees and asylum seekers to avoid creating areas where there is little or no social cohesion between groups of asylum seekers then it seems that they are victims of inequality rather than the cause.
I see Bulgarians and Romanians migrants could be screened for those that have the necessary skills that will be of benefit to our economy. If poverty is a link to criminality then you will be pleased that migrants who have no relevant skills will be refused entry. It could be interpreted so it is ok to hate those that have no education and that it could stigmatise poverty stricken families as potential criminals.
Mind you there would be no chance of them being victims of inequality if they actually didn't come here, but it is rather ironic that 10,000 British citizens have bought properties in Bulgaria alone in the last 12 months, no wonder Bulgarians are leaving if rich brits are pushing up house prices?
Anyway, 'Brits abroad' have caused a lot of crime as well so who are we to judge? How many times have drunken Brits caused public order offences on 'Ibiza uncovered', football matches etc?
On more than one occasion, incomers to Caithness say that crimes committed by Eastern European citizens and other migrants are causing life unbearable in the south of England. Whether the situation is real or not, the perception of the problem is very real and it has caused the said Brits to move northward. Thus outpricing locals from their established home towns. Now that problem has always been here, where the rich go northward to go out to grass, but citing immigration and its problems can only serve to add to the problem.
I see Bulgarians and Romanians migrants could be screened for those that have the necessary skills that will be of benefit to our economy. If poverty is a link to criminality then you will be pleased that migrants who have no relevant skills will be refused entry. It could be interpreted so it is ok to hate those that have no education and that it could stigmatise poverty stricken families as potential criminals.
I think we have to be careful with this - it appears that the jobs that we cant fill are mainly lower paid and unskilled work - picking vegetbles, servicing rooms in hotels, cleaning or factory work for example so it might actually work the other way - those looking for unskilled work will get in easily those looking for more skilled work will not.
Mind you there would be no chance of them being victims of inequality if they actually didn't come here,
I maybe didnt make my distinction clear - i am not suggesting that migrant workers are necessarily suffering from inequlity, they work and rent somewhere to live and manage quite well thank you. Regugees and asylum seekers are different. Often traumatised damaged they are far more susceptible to being victims of inequality and deprivation and those that are here legally very often did not have a choice to stay where they were.
pultneytooner
31-Aug-06, 13:14
why dont the lower the cost of healthy foods so that people can afford to buy them, the prices of healthy food is ridicoulas, i know cos it costs me a fortune each week in shopping[disgust]That's too much like sense, tax the supermarkets, don't allow them to raise prices and they'll be begging you to eat healthily.
I think we have to be careful with this - it appears that the jobs that we cant fill are mainly lower paid and unskilled work - picking vegetbles, servicing rooms in hotels, cleaning or factory work for example so it might actually work the other way - those looking for unskilled work will get in easily those looking for more skilled work will not.
I maybe didnt make my distinction clear - i am not suggesting that migrant workers are necessarily suffering from inequlity, they work and rent somewhere to live and manage quite well thank you. Regugees and asylum seekers are different. Often traumatised damaged they are far more susceptible to being victims of inequality and deprivation and those that are here legally very often did not have a choice to stay where they were.
Yes refugees and asylum seekers are somewhat different, I am not going to go there.
The EU has allowed cross border migration to take place for economic purposes, so this has the effect of pushing down wages within the UK. As I said earlier, the EU is the causal problem.
That's too much like sense, tax the supermarkets, don't allow them to raise prices and they'll be begging you to eat healthily.
Absolutely it sounds like sense but hey who ever said the powers that be have any comon sense - sigh
Squidge, i recently saw a documentry on tv where the cameras followed Department of works and pensions investigators around investigating 14 cases of fraud. Out of those 14 cases 2 were committed by brits the other 12 were committed by foriegn immagrants who have jobs in this country, not run of the mill cleaners or janitors or kitchen staff. The crimes were committed by white collar workers and civil servants, the outcome was that most were caught and convicted, what really knocked me was the fact that the DWP are losing some £7,000,000 per day to acts of fraud, whats more the investigatorsaid that nearly 70% of perpetrated acts of fraud were committed by people who did not origanate from the UK, and whats more they will only be able to recover about 12% of all monies lost to fraud. Thats a lot of tax payers money and to think the chancellor is wanting to tax our food as well...
Emigrants, homosexuals, Muslims - all the old favorites are here!
And so is all the old gnashing of teeth and violent rhetoric.
I believe everyone has the right to expression and I would never ban anybody from these forums even if I could but there is something very nasty creeping in here.
If this is a representative cross section of Caithness opinion then God help you all!
Squidge, i recently saw a documentry on tv where the cameras followed Department of works and pensions investigators around investigating 14 cases of fraud. Out of those 14 cases 2 were committed by brits the other 12 were committed by foriegn immagrants who have jobs in this country, not run of the mill cleaners or janitors or kitchen staff. The crimes were committed by white collar workers and civil servants, the outcome was that most were caught and convicted, what really knocked me was the fact that the DWP are losing some £7,000,000 per day to acts of fraud, whats more the investigatorsaid that nearly 70% of perpetrated acts of fraud were committed by people who did not origanate from the UK, and whats more they will only be able to recover about 12% of all monies lost to fraud. Thats a lot of tax payers money and to think the chancellor is wanting to tax our food as well...
Follow the same investigators around Caithness and Sutherland and what would you see? Out of twenty cases probably twenty would be committed by British people but that wouldnt make such dramatic TV..! :roll:
The statistic they quote may be true in their area if that area has a high percentage of immigrants. The DWP does not actually collect statistics on the amount of fraud committed by immigrants but logic tells you that the amount of fraud committed by immigrants in North Peckam for example where the ehtnic population is 56% than in The Highlands where it is much smaller.
Benefit investigation is underfunded - removing local investigators was a bad idea in many areas. Although in Caithness I am sure you all knew the Fraud mannie in many cities people did not and they often identified leads which proved very useful in tackling both small scale and large scale Fraud. Benefit Fraud is often seen by the general public as a "bit on the side". This is changing but it isnt changing enough in many places. The amount of money lost in Fraud is HUGE and it needs to be tackled but stopping imigration isnt going to stop benefit Fraud - once again you are focussing your anger in the wrong place.
Squidge, are you saying that only 2 out of 14 people in that area were of British descent? Who is being naive here?
No of course i am not Rheghead but i am pointing out that things are nt always as black and white as they appear and that the selection of cases for hte TV could have had something to do with it.
TV documentaries are entertaining and thought provoking but that is precisely why they cant be relied up on to present the whole picture. The picture differs from place to place and thats the point i was making
No of course i am not Rheghead but i am pointing out that things are nt always as black and white as they appear and that the selection of cases for hte TV could have had something to do with it.
TV documentaries are entertaining and thought provoking but that is precisely why they cant be relied up on to present the whole picture. The picture differs from place to place and thats the point i was making
Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't seem to remember 30 years ago Russian gangs keeping Polish prostitutes as slaves to work the streets of Peckham, or , Chinese gangmasters leading cockle pickers to their deaths or smothering them to death in the back of a truck? etc etc etc.
Do you think the British Police should have to deal with this nonsense?
If I've ever spoken to a merchant seaman or anyone who has seen the world, one of the most often said things is that life is cheap out there. Now we can easily blame that on poverty, yeah? But Saudi is one of the richest countries in the world and they still have to resort to chopping hands and heads off to maintain order.
I am afraid to say this but we in this country on the whole have a special value placed within our culture in regards to the rule of law which isn't exactly shared by the rest of the world's population. It is a culture thing. I have heard a lot of apologists on this forum trying to make allowances but that is the way of things.
I read a book about all the people who have been hanged in the UK from records began at the old bailey. And about 40% were foreigners! Gee wizz, oh that is because there were more foreigners there living in pre WW1 london, I hear? Err, no, my belief is that culturally, foreigners (except western europeans, they're alright) are not as law abiding as British, their countries are not reknowned throughout the world for upholding core law-abiding values. That is why the British empire was able to colonise the Globe, because we were and still are respected as a country that respects human rights and the rule of law.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't seem to remember 30 years ago Russian gangs keeping Polish prostitutes as slaves to work the streets of Peckham, or , Chinese gangmasters leading cockle pickers to their deaths or smothering them to death in the back of a truck? etc etc etc.
Do you think the British Police should have to deal with this nonsense?
If I've ever spoken to a merchant seaman or anyone who has seen the world, one of the most often said things is that life is cheap out there. Now we can easily blame that on poverty, yeah? But Saudi is one of the richest countries in the world and they still have to resort to chopping hands and heads off to maintain order.
I am afraid to say this but we in this country on the whole have a special value placed within our culture in regards to the rule of law which isn't exactly shared by the rest of the world's population. It is a culture thing. I have heard a lot of apologists on this forum trying to make allowances but that is the way of things.
I read a book about all the people who have been hanged in the UK from records began at the old bailey. And about 40% were foreigners! Gee wizz, oh that is because there were more foreigners there living in pre WW1 london, I hear? Err, no, my belief is that culturally, foreigners (except western europeans, they're alright) are not as law abiding as British, their countries are not reknowned throughout the world for upholding core law-abiding values. That is why the British empire was able to colonise the Globe, because we were and still are respected as a country that respects human rights and the rule of law.
I dont get your point here rheghead - you seem to be suggesting that the British are more law abiding than any other race on earth???? That there is something in our racial make up that makes us better than any other race - surely thats not what you mean?????
People are people some good some bad some stupid some smart some break the law some dont, There are bad British people abroad like there are bad foreigners here.
What i was saying is that stopping immigration is not the solution to the issues that Maverick has raised and that is the point of the examples i have given. It wont prevent benefit fraud, it wont reduce the massive social security budget it wont make mavericks pensioner relatives any better off. I am saying that targetting Immigration as the root of all ills has been done over the years and its nonsense and that's all. The examples i have quoted are from my understanding of things and are based in research and personal experience and my belief in equality and fairness and a collective social responsibility.
The national picture would show that people from all cultures and races are just that - people - with all their failings and faults and strengths and postitive attributes and saying that "we" as British people are somehow superior is nonsense and distasteful.
I dont get your point here rheghead - you seem to be suggesting that the British are more law abiding than any other race on earth???? That there is something in our racial make up that makes us better than any other race - surely thats not what you mean?????
No, our respect from other nations in relation to our laws is earned through our culture, it's not a race thing, you have mentioned race.
People are people some good some bad some stupid some smart some break the law some dont, There are bad British people abroad like there are bad foreigners here.
True, but take a 1000 Colombians and a 1000 British and put them on an island together and which side will be doing the most murders and rapes? No prizes for guessing. So immigration control will help to stop crime in this country.
Teh examples i have quoted are from my understanding of things and are based in research and personal experience and my beleif in equality and fairness and a collective social responsibility.
In my experience, the meek will never rule the world.
The national picture would show that people from all cultures and races are just that - people - with all their failings and faults and strengths and postitive attributes and saying that "we" as British people are somehow superior is nonsense and distasteful.
Why do you think that the British are distasteful for being more law abiding, I think you have your poles crossed somewhere or your not proud to be British or summat.
True, but take a 1000 Colombians and a 1000 British and put them on an island together and which side will be doing the most murders and rapes? No prizes for guessing. So immigration control will help to stop crime in this country..
Unless you pick 1000 law abiding columbians and 1000 recidivists from Britian - games rheghead - games!!!
In my experience, the meek will never rule the world..
Who said anything about meekness?
Why do you think that the British are distasteful for being more law abiding, I think you have your poles crossed somewhere or your not proud to be British or summat.
I dont think the British are distasteful i think your view of us as a superior group of people is. Im proud to be me, British is part of that
I dont think the British are distasteful i think your view of us as a superior group of people is. Im proud to be me, British is part of that
Me neither :lol: but what is wrong in being proud of the fact that your country is better culturally than the rest of the world?
If that is being distasteful then so be it.[disgust]
Squidge you keep mentioning that i am focussing my anger in the wrong place.
I am not angry.
What i am is fed up, i am fed up with people judging me.
I am a Scotsman and proud to be so, i feel that my country has contributed much to the world. I also feel that it is being bled dry. Now as far as i am concerned people are coming to live in my country, and nobody has ever once asked or consulted with me or my fellow Scots if that would be ok. As a result of this my nationality and my culture is under threat, the very essence of what makes a Scotsman Scottish will end up beind chewed up and spat out because people want to allow immigrants to come here to live.... and at the expence of the tax payer. We have been hit with so many stealth taxes and i feel that people coming here to live is contributing to this ... and that is my opinion.If you don't like it then tough we will just have to agree to disagree on this..
What i am is fed up, i am fed up with people judging me.
Up until now i havent done - i have simply pointed out how wrong you are.
Now as far as i am concerned people are coming to live in my country, and nobody has ever once asked or consulted with me or my fellow Scots if that would be ok.
You were asked at the ballot box. You were asked when you put your cross where you beleived it would reflect your views. I hope that you Do vote Macerick. I hope you consider the policy on immigration of all the parties and make an informed choice not based on a documentary on TV or the headlines in a tabloid newspaper.
I am a Scotsman and proud to be so, i feel that my country has contributed much to the world. I also feel that it is being bled dry.....As a result of this my nationality and my culture is under threat, the very essence of what makes a Scotsman Scottish will end up beind chewed up and spat out because people want to allow immigrants to come here to live.... and at the expence of the tax payer.
I make no apologies for rearranging your post. I find your views racist and extreme. I have no idea why you feel your scottishness is undert threat from immigrants. There are 6 million people live in Scotland or thereabouts, there are scottish people of asian descent, ukranian descent, polish descent, chinese descent, african descent, carribean descent, italian descent - are they any less Scottish because their parents or grandparents were not born here in Scotland? Have they impacted on your "scottishness"? Why then would you assume that todays imigrants will do so. There are millions of scots world wide living in different countries and cultures and do you think being surrounded by people of different faiths and backgrounds makes them less scottish? The views you express here are racist and distasteful.
I still fail to understand how you can say that immigrants are bleeding us dry. I will say again out of 470 000 east european immigrants arriving int he UK - thte UK remember - not simply Scotland 27 000 are receiveing child benefit and therefore tax credits and 700 have claimed an "out of work " benefit. thats less than 6% - how is this bleeding us dry - Do the maths MAverick - it doents make sense.
We have been hit with so many stealth taxes and i feel that people coming here to live is contributing to this ... and that is my opinion.If you don't like it then tough we will just have to agree to disagree on this..
See I cant do that. I cant agree to disagree with someone who comes out with racist nonsense. When i was 18 i sat and listened to someone come out with all the stuff you are saying and worse and i didnt say a word and I was so ashamed of myself. I am well aware that my persistence on this is a right pain in the neck and that lots of people will either roll their eyes or just put me on their ignore list but if you dont want to talk about this any more then you have to take your racist views elsewhere because as long as you comeout with racist, bigoted comments then i will have to respond. The things you say have no place in a modern day Scotland and if you were as proud of your Scottishness as you say you are then you would know that.
Squidge its well seen that you have passed judgment upon me . The facts are plain i do not accept your argument. I am not racist nor bigoted. I just simply feel that there is no more room in our country for immigrants.. thats my opinion, an opinion that i am entitled to. Y ou may have lived in Scotland for 5 minutes, but you havent got the first idea about being Scottish or what it means. Some of my best friends are black and i have many friends worldwide who are of various cultures and religions. The one thing i have learned on my travels is respect. You cant put a reasonable argument to persuade me to see things your way so you disect my posts to attain your own ends to make me out to be racist and bigoted. Well i feel that i haven't needed to insult you throughout this thread . I dont expect you to understand my views or respect them but i do expect you to understand that i have the right to come to this forum and express my opinion without being insulted . Whatsmore the one thing that has no place in a modern Scotland is english people telling us how to manage our own affairs and how to live our lives.....if your not happy in Scotland just get on the A74m back to england and stay there.....
Squidge its well seen that you have passed judgment upon me
Absolutely i have but i waited until you gave me no choice.
The facts are plain i do not accept your argument. I am not racist nor bigoted. I just simply feel that there is no more room in our country for immigrants.. thats my opinion, an opinion that i am entitled to. You may have lived in Scotland for 5 minutes, but you havent got the first idea about being Scottish or what it means.
Enlighten me then does it includeblaming one group of people for all society's ills despite evidence that they may not be the sole cause?
The one thing i have learned on my travels is respect. You cant put a reasonable argument to persuade me to see things your way so you disect my posts to attain your own ends to make me out to be racist and bigoted. Well i feel that i haven't needed to insult you throughout this thread
I have not added or removed anything from any of your posts which changes the message of them. I have been very careful not to do so. If you think that what you have written doenst come across as bigoted or racist then show me how it doesnt. I dont think you gave me any choice but to come to the conclusion I did. If what you have written isnt what you mean then you need to tell me so in order for me to understand.
And i dont beleive i have insulted you either Maverick. I do not know you. It is the views that you express which are bigoted and frankly miss the point. You simply ignore the counter arguments and my comments and return to the country is going bad and its all the fault of the immigrants. It doesnt make any sense at all.
I dont expect you to understand my views or respect them but i do expect you to understand that i have the right to come to this forum and express my opinion without being insulted
I just say what i read Maverick i am afraid. The views you express are not acceptable to me and i am not going to lie down and pretend they are or that they are excuseable cos i dont think they are.
. Whatsmore the one thing that has no place in a modern Scotland is english people telling us how to manage our own affairs and how to live our lives.....if your not happy in Scotland just get on the A74m back to england and stay there.....
Hey ho - i had a bet that the english thing would be the next thing to rear its ugly head - do i need to say i rest my case???
I am perfectly happy here thanks Maverick - i love it here i love my very scottish man and i love the place. I dont tell anyone how to manage their affairs or live their lives unless they ask for my advice and i am not doing so now. What i AM doing is challenging racist comments which i beleive have no place anywhere in society never mind here in scotland.
what exactly is the english thing squidge? There is a saying " sweep your own fireside before you try sweeping that of others" I dont believe that my views are at all racist or bigoted. the only person who has brought racism into this is you with your accusations. I want no form of "ethnic" cleansing in Scotland. Not like the Highland clearances where Scots men, women and children were murdered and thrown out and had their homes burnt to make way for english sheep. I fully understand that i live in a multi racial society. What i want is for immigration to stop because i believe that we as a nation cannot sustain the numbers of people who are pouring into our country. this has nothing to do with assylum seekers or refugees, that is a different situation with completly different needs and i dont want to get into that at all. The main point of this thread was the possibility of having certian types of food taxed in a bit to buget for people with obese problems, i say again taxing food is not the answer.Its not the food that makes you fat its the amount you eat.....And i fully believe that there are high numbers of foriegn nationals who want to come and live in our country purely for the health and social security benefits that they can get.It may also surprise you to know that i'm not the only person in the country who believes this. I believe that i read some where that there was over 1 billion pounds of tax payers money went into the legal system to give immigrants a fair trial or whatever process they go through as appeals ,and that i think was over a five year period and i believe that was for non eu residents. Thats a lot of money and a lot of people are working very hard to pay those tax pounds. Now if we took that money and just put it into the NHS that would be able to pay for loads of reiforced equipment needed in hospitals to treat people with obese problems and therefor there would be no need to tax food. The other benefit of curbing immigration would be that we could sort our own fireside and deal with more domestic issues like say care of the elderly , homeless people,crime all sorts of things. I have to admit that when you read inthe press about families who have come to britian and have been given special accomodation because ther are so many of them and thousands of pounds per week in benefits, and like me who know people who fought for their country and get very little, it tends to leave a bitter taste in your mouth and im not angry at the benefit system or the migrant but at the government who have failed its people yet again...
Whatsmore the one thing that has no place in a modern Scotland is english people telling us how to manage our own affairs and how to live our lives.
Come come, fair's fair, the whole of England is run by a Scottish elitist cabinet who reserve Scottish MP's right to vote on purely English matters. And there are many Scottish born MPs who hold English constituencies.
May I also remind you that there isn't one English-born MSP in the Scottish parliament (don't you think that is odd?) and I doubt if there'll be one in my lifetime..............then again[para] muahhahahah!
:Razz
Come come, fair's fair, the whole of England is run by a Scottish elitist cabinet who reserve Scottish MP's right to vote on purely English matters. And there are many Scottish born MPs who hold English constituencies.
May I also remind you that there isn't one English-born MSP in the Scottish parliament (don't you think that is odd?) and I doubt if there'll be one in my lifetime..............then again[para] muahhahahah!
:Razz
I for one don't believe that Scottish MP'S should have any say in english matters only British ones
j4bberw0ck
02-Sep-06, 07:55
Not like the Highland clearances where Scots men, women and children were murdered and thrown out and had their homes burnt to make way for english sheep.
Good Lord above; imagine that. How clever of the sheep to organise such a thing. Never trust an english sheep! One minute it's grazing your field, the next, it's viciously assaulted you and heaved you out of your house and home..... oh, sorry.....
I think you'll find, maverick, that the bulk of the Clearances were orchestrated by Scottish landowners and the occasional "Clan Chief". Check out Wikipedia or other sources if you will. Just while racism is a peripheral issue ;)
I fully understand that i live in a multi racial society. What i want is for immigration to stop because i believe that we as a nation cannot sustain the numbers of people who are pouring into our country. this has nothing to do with assylum seekers or refugees,
The government regards ecomomic migrants individually as making an individual positive contribution to the UK economy if their income exceeds £27,000 p.a. So, with a national average income in the region of £22,000 p.a. it's clear that the majority of those who are already here - born and bred, maverick - are indeed a drain on the economy. So you'll be volunteering to take a long walk in the snow, then?
It's all about figures. There are economists who'll say that without migration inwards, we'll all face poverty. That Scotland's population decline will restrict GDP growth (necessary to fund an ageing population). Naturally enough, there are those who argue the other way, too - that a population of 30 million would be ideal for the UK - but the big guns are on the side of those who would encourage EU immigration for its economic benefits. EU immigrants are generally more motivated and better educated than their Scottish / UK contemporaries. The problem is that the State has betrayed the country over the years in education, producing successive generations of kids who need to be taught to spell and write properly by employers.
I believe that i read some where that there was over 1 billion pounds of tax payers money went into the legal system to give immigrants a fair trial or whatever process they go through as appeals ,and that i think was over a five year period and i believe that was for non eu residents. Thats a lot of money and a lot of people are working very hard to pay those tax pounds.
Oh, that's easily fixed! Just give the authorities the right to arrest anyone they please at any time without any reason or warrant, suspend the rights of habeas corpus amongst those arrested (and this government is getting us there, so don't panic!), abandon trials and due process, and woopee! Problem solved. Paradise for maverick! Pretty soon we could be generating jobs like no tomorrow flying and crewing the aircraft used to take the immigrants back home, servicing them at airports and so on! Of course, if you believe it's worth saving the money on trials and the legal side of things to bolster the NHS, I suppose it's a compelling idea. You'll be first in the queue to offer to rescind all your rights and protections put in place by the legal system to prevent the government trampling you into the dirt as it sees fit, no doubt? Probably best rescind the rights before the walk in the snow, just to be on the safe side.
Now if we took that money and just put it into the NHS that would be able to pay for loads of reiforced equipment needed in hospitals to treat people with obese problems and therefor there would be no need to tax food.
I'm going to assume that's a joke, even if an unintentional one. :lol:
The original idea of the National Health Service is contained in its name. The bold, oversize text is your clue. It was to promote and increase the health of the nation and to reduce illness. So here's a great idea! Rather than wait until people are obese - largely because they have no incentive to be otherwise - and then "treat" them so they can go out and become obese all over again, why not look at ways in which obesity can be avoided. It can be done; go to Europe and look at the kids walking or cycling to school in all weathers. Very few are even overweight, let alone obese.
Er, just as it used to be before our population started to become so obese.
Oh, yes, and they have mandatory games and PE at school......no garbage there about "you can't be seen to lose"....... Er, just as it was before our population started to become so obese.
Ah, I was forgetting..... school lunches cooked on the premises with real food and no choice. You just get to eat what's there. No visits to the chippie, no wandering back up the street with a Mars bar in one hand and a can of Coke in the other. Er, just as it used to be before our population started to become so obese..........
Are we seeing a pattern here, maverick?
I have to admit that when you read inthe press about families who have come to britian and have been given special accomodation because ther are so many of them and thousands of pounds per week in benefits, and like me who know people who fought for their country and get very little, it tends to leave a bitter taste in your mouth and im not angry at the benefit system or the migrant but at the government who have failed its people yet again...
I agree it's not an ideal situation, but your solution is..............? Also, of course, the press have a vested interest in reporting the most outrageous cases because it gets people upset and sells papers.
I understand the government are thinking about introducing a fat tax - extra taxation on food items according to fat and sugar content, in order to pay for the extra cost of treating obese people on the NHS. It's a radical step, but surely something has to be done to defuse this potential time bomb? Apparently it is costing hospitals millions extra to provide stronger operating tables and beds and suchlike for heavy people!
It would probably mean a Mars Bar will cost at least £1, and £12 for a Big Mac!
What do folk think?
Having lived on both sides of the pond one think that struck me when we moved to the UK was the the only "foods" that were cheaper in the UK were beer and sweets.
With our "strong" pound almost all goods should be cheaper here but someone somewhere is pocketing a lot of money that wouldn't pocked in other countries. I know the government takes some but is really no worse than else where: so who is making all the profit?
My views are exactly that my views and they are formed on the basis of my experiences and if you dont like them then thats fine, i can respect that you are entitled to your opinion as i am to mine. I am still of the opinion that it would be wrong to tax food and of the opinion migrants coming to britian is counter productive to the economy.The government may tell you otherwise, as they told us that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. ( i wonder if they actually found any yet) The country is at war, a war that is costing not just money but lives. We went to war based on government intel, nothing that could be based on actual facts but their best guess. The government had to admit that they had lied to us. The same government who issues facts and figures regarding our economy and whats best for us all........My friends i have my opinions and thats what they are just my opinions, i haven't set out to start a conflict, and if anybody finds them offensive then i am truly sorry but at the end of the day they are merely a reflection of how i view life in todays current climate. I am not trying to convert anyone im just having an opinion...
Dreadnought
02-Sep-06, 16:17
Squidge you keep mentioning that i am focussing my anger in the wrong place.
I am not angry.
What i am is fed up, i am fed up with people judging me.
I am a Scotsman and proud to be so, i feel that my country has contributed much to the world. I also feel that it is being bled dry. Now as far as i am concerned people are coming to live in my country, and nobody has ever once asked or consulted with me or my fellow Scots if that would be ok. As a result of this my nationality and my culture is under threat, the very essence of what makes a Scotsman Scottish will end up beind chewed up and spat out because people want to allow immigrants to come here to live.... and at the expence of the tax payer. We have been hit with so many stealth taxes and i feel that people coming here to live is contributing to this ... and that is my opinion.If you don't like it then tough we will just have to agree to disagree on this..
Transpose 'Scots, Scottish, Scotsman and Scotland for England, English etc. and you have the current situation down here. Fly the English flag and councils will order you to take it down because it offends some minority or other. Claim to be proud of your English heritage and you'll be denounced as at best a 'little Englander' and at worst a xenophobic racist. English culture has been all but eradicated and the word England is never used by any major politician: Blair and Brown will always refer to 'Britain and British' but never to England and English.
Maverick, hang on to your culture and pride in your origins, look to England to see what happens if you don't.
Transpose 'Scots, Scottish, Scotsman and Scotland for England, English etc. and you have the current situation down here. Fly the English flag and councils will order you to take it down because it offends some minority or other. Claim to be proud of your English heritage and you'll be denounced as at best a 'little Englander' and at worst a xenophobic racist. English culture has been all but eradicated and the word England is never used by any major politician: Blair and Brown will always refer to 'Britain and British' but never to England and English.
Maverick, hang on to your culture and pride in your origins, look to England to see what happens if you don't.
I dont think your racist or xenophobic, all you are is an englishman who wants to hang on to his tradions,culture and heritage and i dont think that there is anything wrong with that, and i believe that all these things can be achieved without being branded a racist, whats wrong with being english in a multi-racial society.
There is a difference between being patriotic and loving your country and blaming all the ills of the world on immigrants.
Of course one should be able to fly the flag of ones country - whether thats the saltire or the Union Jack or the Stars and Stripes. Indeed I have a Lebanese Friend ( working AND earning over £27 000) here in Inverness who's front room curtains are one HUGE Saltire and one HUGE Lebanese Flag:D . Being Pround of your country and your heritage is massively important - understanding the history of your country is also key to appreciating who you are and your place in the world today. I have seen that almost every weekend this year. I would like to see an Inclusive Independant Scotland, I would like to live in an Independant Scotland. I guess I am an English Scottish Nationalist but then i sleep with Robert the Bruce on a regular basis [lol].
This doesnt change the fact that blaming immigration for the problems in the health service, the overspend in the social security budget or the level of crime in the UK is nonsense. Tabloid TV and scaremongering headlines do nothing to improve the education of those ignorant to the facts. They simply pander to the narrow minded views that some people have and create fear and encourage the bigotry we have seen here. It makes good telly and it sells papers.
Stopping Immigration will not prevent any of the problems i have mentioned, being problems nor will packing all us English off back down the A74(m).
And then when all the "undesirables" have been sent packing will the Social security system be any better? Will the health service miraculously improve? Will the crime rate plummet? No it wont.
Tabloid TV and scaremongering headlines do nothing to improve the education of those ignorant to the facts.
Is the media telling us lies?
Dreadnought
04-Sep-06, 15:51
Is the media telling us lies?
Every day.
Btw Squidge, the English flag is the Cross of St George, the Union Flag is the British flag. ;)
Lies hmm i think the headline "£10 000 gift for immigrants" is skewed enough to almost be a lie.
There are cases where Fraudulent claims are made and hte best estimate i can find seems to be that around 500 claims for tax credits have been made where the person claiming them has returned to their home country and continued getting the payments for the rest of the year. Out of 470 000 migrants thats only a small percentage and without doubt they should be held responsible.
The rules for tax credits and child benefit are complicated but the basis is that the parent has to be ordinarily resident in the UK and the child has to be normally living with the parent so to imply that thousands of migrants are getting handouts of £10 000 for children who arent living here is not reality
Every day.
Btw Squidge, the English flag is the Cross of St George, the Union Flag is the British flag.
Btw Dreadnought ;) I never said that the Union Flag was the English Flag i didnt link flags to countries i simply said
whether thats the saltire or the Union Jack or the Stars and Stripes.
I know fine well the English flag is the cross of St George but thanks for the lesson.[lol]
LOL!!!!!!!
I have just composed and erased a reply to this thread. I found out that I still allow myself to be (personally) upset by the xenophobic and mis-informed opinions too often expressed here. And that is the reason I composed a reply.
The reason I deleted the reply, letter by letter and with anger and exasperation, is that it doesn't matter what anyone says. What is expressed here are personal opinions. These opinions will not be deviated by logical explanations because they are convictions. Each one of us have convictions, and unfortunately they are often immutable. Immigrants are a weaker link that will bear the brunt of being the cause of all or many difficulties that each affluent and semi-affluent european country faces. Their contribution to each country will be silent and often unaknowleged(?- sorry for spelling).
Youa re a better woman (or man) than i am.
I just cant keep my mouth shut!!!!
one million percent woman, squidge. 1 000 000%.
Lies hmm i think the headline "£10 000 gift for immigrants" is skewed enough to almost be a lie.
There are cases where Fraudulent claims are made and hte best estimate i can find seems to be that around 500 claims for tax credits have been made where the person claiming them has returned to their home country and continued getting the payments for the rest of the year. Out of 470 000 migrants thats only a small percentage and without doubt they should be held responsible.
The rules for tax credits and child benefit are complicated but the basis is that the parent has to be ordinarily resident in the UK and the child has to be normally living with the parent so to imply that thousands of migrants are getting handouts of £10 000 for children who arent living here is not reality
Don't you think that 470,000 is a tad too much? And 500 claims is 500 too many?
Where do you get your figures from, btw, they just reinforce my views on the situation. There lies ,damn lies and then there are statistics, and lastly, there are Government statistics.
I see that EU citizens with an address can vote in this country in a General Election. Since the Electorate makes up only a very small percentage of the population, then that 470,000 looks like a big minority now, I can see how a large influx of immigrants can change the face of Britain and its values of fairness and freedom. If the EU carries on allowing the cross border migrations then that will only force wages down. How can this be fair on an indigenous population which is faced with a wage freeze/cut or worse still redundo in favour of foreign cheap labour.
It is easy to level xenophobia accusations, but with a little thought you will realise that the net effect of all this migration will push up taxation and lower jobs wages and job security. Already firms are saying that they cannot survive without cheap foreign labour only because they have to put in ridiculously low tenders and push wages down so low that only migrant workers can afford to take the jobs. Then they move the money out of the country to their families never to be seen again.
I guess in the Inversnecky, it doesn't seem a problem but it is down south.
I have just composed and erased a reply to this thread. I found out that I still allow myself to be (personally) upset by the xenophobic and mis-informed opinions too often expressed here. And that is the reason I composed a reply.
The political leadership of the UK clearly state that it is not racist or xenophobic to discuss immigration and political asylum.
Therefore, your comments re xenophobia serve only to stifle debate on a very contentious issue and it is precisely your attitude that has created the useless monolith called 'political correctness' and to allow this country to sleepwalk in our failed multi-racial society. Just look at the news everyday and you will get the point, we see ghettos, mass illegal immigration, cross border migration, terrorist acts, racially motivated assaults, sweat shops, muslim leaders calling for tighter immigration control, rainbow sheep and breaches or animal rights etc etc and all because we have been shamed into not speaking up.
I have not said immigration should continue unfettered. I have not said that there should not be any controls but In the specifics according to the conversation we had here about social security overspend, nhs funding and benefit - migrants are not to blame for the state of these three areas.
I have not said immigration should continue unfettered. I have not said that there should not be any controls.
Can you explain why you think the UK should have immigration control?
I see that EU citizens with an address can vote in this country in a General Election. I can recommend a good optician if you like.
See here (http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/n6m/index/your_rights/civil_rights/voting_procedures.htm) first.
Can you explain why you think the UK should have immigration control?
Stop playing games with me Rheghead - i havent said that either. I have simply said that stopping immigration will not resolve any of the issues which maverick mentioned in his posts.
Lolabelle
05-Sep-06, 10:26
WOW, didn't this start as a thread about a fat tax??? Something all (us) fatties can worry about. And maybe take advantage of???
How can this thread have gone from an enquiry reference a "Fat Tax", to discussing UK policies on immigration? The mind boggles, or is this a symptom of being an Orger i.e. having the ability to fly off at tangents and changing the subject at every oppertunity? :confused
Its like a discussion round the dinner table. It meanders [lol]
Stop playing games with me Rheghead - i havent said that either. I have simply said that stopping immigration will not resolve any of the issues which maverick mentioned in his posts.
You have said that we should have immigration control. By saying one thing then denying it then you are the one playing the games. Or you have strongly implied it.
I can recommend a good optician if you like.
See here (http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/n6m/index/your_rights/civil_rights/voting_procedures.htm) first.
Well I've just filled out a voters form that said that EU citizens can vote.
WOW, didn't this start as a thread about a fat tax??? Something all (us) fatties can worry about. And maybe take advantage of???
I have it on good authority that obesity in other countries can be lauded as a sign of affluence, so to come full circle, yes, tax them! tax them all!![lol]
Well I've just filled out a voters form that said that EU citizens can vote.Not in general elections.
From this document (http://uk.sitestat.com/electoralcommission/aboutmyvote/s?registerdownload&ns_type=pdf&ns_url=%5Bhttp://www.aboutmyvote.co.uk/documents/servefile.cfm?fname=7D614EA6-E7F2-6FB3-9891E3E20A2003F6.pdf%5D) at the Electoral Commission website (http://www.aboutmyvote.co.uk/):
British citizens, Irish citizens and citizens of Commonwealth countries (including Cyprus and Malta) can vote at all elections.
Citizens of other EU countries can vote in local government elections but cannot vote in UK parliamentary elections. If you are an EU citizen and want to vote in European parliamentary elections, you must fill in a separate form. Contact your electoral registration office to ask for one.
I work with a lot of Germans and Italians, so I knew the EU bit already. But I didn't know that Commonwealth citizens could vote in all elections. I'm genuinely surprised that Commonwealth citizens have more voting rights than EU citizens. It's presumably a blast from the past.
But I didn't know that Commonwealth citizens could vote in all elections. I'm genuinely surprised that Commonwealth citizens have more voting rights than EU citizens. It's presumably a blast from the past.
Thanks for putting me right on that, so EU citizens don't have an automatic right to vote in a General Election but they can apply for the right?
I understand that Mozambique is now a commonwealth country, even though the UK had next to nowt to do with it. Scary?
Thanks for putting me right on that, so EU citizens don't have an automatic right to vote in a General Election but they can apply for the right?Lol Rheggers, you're having a bad day today.
The quote in my previous post contains the statements:
Citizens of other EU countries can vote in local government elections but cannot vote in UK parliamentary elections. If you are an EU citizen and want to vote in European parliamentary elections, you must fill in a separate form.
European parliamentary elections are elections to the European Parliament. They are not general elections to the UK parliament.
The rules are stated more clearly in the first link (http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/n6m/index/your_rights/civil_rights/voting_procedures.htm) I posted above:
European Union (EU) citizens have the right to vote in European parliamentary and British local government elections. European nationals who are not EU citizens do not have this right. EU citizens cannot vote in British parliamentary elections.
I understand that Mozambique is now a commonwealth country, even though the UK had next to nowt to do with it. Scary?It does seem rather strange, but I suspect you got that info from the same website I did, so you know the circumstances behind this special case. ;)
It does seem rather strange, but I suspect you got that info from the same website I did, so you know the circumstances behind this special case. ;)
Nah, I just know Mozambique is a Commonwealth country from memory.
connieb19
05-Sep-06, 17:37
Maybe we could all just have pedometers attatched to us and taxed by the step..:roll:
Stop playing games with me Rheghead - i havent said that either. I have simply said that stopping immigration will not resolve any of the issues which maverick mentioned in his posts.
My reasons for thinking that immigration is a problem. ( are not based on racism or bigotry) The way i see things if we allow people to come here to work and take our jobs we run the real risk of puting the entire (born and bred) british workforce on the dole, because over a period of time all of our jobs will go to foriegn workers. As it is now employers are favouring immigrants over locals up and down the country,largely due to the fact that local people have to be paid the national minimum wage and this rule doesn't apply to foriegn workers. I feel it is a question of survival for the british work force..
All workers have to be paid the National Minimum Wage. Immigrants too. There is a lot of work goes on to ensure migrant workers are aware of their rights and if you know an employer who doesnt pay the National Minimum Wage you should report them to the DTI.
If you are saying that employers dont need to pay illegal immigrants National Minimum wage then you must also be aware that this is against the law also. It is the same as employers paying people less than the National Minimum wage and telling them to keep claiming their benefits. Its against the law to do that like its against the law to employ illegal immigrants.
If an employer advertises a job paying the nationall minimum wage and have 5 polish people and 5 scottish people apply there is no "incentive" to employ the polish people because they have to pay less. The polish people have to pay tax, NI and they have to be paid the national minimum wage.
I have heard the taking all our jobs argument before when app.lied to immigrants from Pakistan and Bangladesh in the 80s in the North West of England. It was no more true then than it is now. If you look you can find the list of unfilled vacancies for each area and the percentages of unemployment. Have a look and you can see where the migrant workers are filling the gaps. As the unfilled vacancies comes directly from vacancies notified to the Jobcentreplus offices you can be sure that it is only the tip of the iceberg. The jobcentres get around a third of all advertised vacancies and thats if they are lucky so if there are unfilled vacancies in the Jobcentres there are many more outside of it
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