View Full Version : who is god
If god created Adam and Eve then who is god, it cant be Jesus as he was created by god ??
Metalattakk
19-Feb-11, 12:47
Blasphemy! Thou shalt burn in the fiery pits of hell for all eternity!
Religion's a lot of pish, isn't it?
If you were born a few thousand years ago in Greece you'd believe there were many gods.
Same if you were born in ancient egypt, or 1000 years ago in Scandanavia.
If you were born 20 years ago in the deep amazon, you might believe in Juju in the mountain.
The abrahamic god of judaism, Christianity, Islam etc is just another set of beliefs that will die in time.
They can't all be right.
orkneycadian
19-Feb-11, 12:49
I believe you'll find all the answers you are looking for here.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUQcCvX2MKk
I believe you'll find all the answers you are looking for here.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUQcCvX2MKk
hahahha love it made me lol
secrets in symmetry
19-Feb-11, 13:13
I believe you'll find all the answers you are looking for here.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUQcCvX2MKk
Gosh, doesn't Griff Rhys Jones look young in that? He obviously hasn't discovered the elixir of youth! The others don't look so different today. Especially Pam. ;)
Oops, what was this thread about?
Steven Hawking's new book is called Why God Did Not Create the Universe. Has anyone read it?
Gosh, doesn't Griff Rhys Jones look young in that? He obviously hasn't discovered the elixir of youth! The others don't look so different today. Especially Pam. ;)
Oops, what was this thread about?
Steven Hawking's new book is called Why God Did Not Create the Universe. Has anyone read it?
nope but might go look for it......just need answer as to why thing happen..
orkneycadian
19-Feb-11, 13:24
Gosh, doesn't Griff Rhys Jones look young in that? He obviously hasn't discovered the elixir of youth! The others don't look so different today. Especially Pam. ;)
Try this one then (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVtjyCNXy3s&NR=1) for more words of spiritual wisdom from somewhat younger looking soothsayers....
Religion tells us how to think and act but for some people it can be a guide. If we are left to find our own path we could all find our true selves.
I personally believe that there is no god. I believe our souls are on a path and in our lives we have to discover the path we should be on.
secrets in symmetry
19-Feb-11, 13:45
Try this one then (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVtjyCNXy3s&NR=1) for more words of sprititual wisdom from somewhat younger looking soothsayers....Lol! I couldn't understand a word Rowan Atkinson said. The other soothsayers do indeed look young. There's also an interview with Pam filmed in 1971. I have been turned to jelly. Whoever created her knew what they were doing.
onecalledk
19-Feb-11, 14:11
If god created Adam and Eve then who is god, it cant be Jesus as he was created by god ??
Depends if you are asking about God in the context of religion or God as the creator the universe or God as God. God is a name perhaps given to a concept rather than a "who".
IMHO there is no god as such, we were created from source and source created the universes and everything in them. We are all energy, all connected to everything full stop. It is human nature to try to label things. Perhaps as "GOD" is such a personal concept there is not definitive answer to the question?
K
The Music Monster
19-Feb-11, 14:37
If god created Adam and Eve then who is god, it cant be Jesus as he was created by god ??
Are you actually, genuinely asking, because I would be quite happy to explain a few things if you are... Or are you just writing to see what responses you get?
Quite seriously, Theology is an awesome subject irrespective of whether you believe in God or not, because it teaches you so much about people and their need/love of myths, higher beings and understanding of the earth.
Theology is an awesome subject irrespective of whether you believe in God or not, because it teaches you so much about people and their need/love of myths, higher beings and understanding of the earth.
I can't pretend that I've studied theology, and I'm certainly no expert, but I do believe that religion is the result of the human need to understand and comprehend what they see around them.
I've often thought of reading a few books on the subject.
secrets in symmetry
19-Feb-11, 14:54
Quite seriously, Theology is an awesome subject irrespective of whether you believe in God or not, because it teaches you so much about people and their need/love of myths, higher beings and understanding of the earth.Can you suggest some books for a beginner to start with? Preferably ones that theorise and cover all the angles rather than preach and assume belief.
Whether or not we believe in anything beyond physical reality, I'm sure any Theology book would be better than the empty claim that energy is all there is! Empty statements rarely impress.
The Drunken Duck
19-Feb-11, 15:27
Who cares.
Anyway, If there is a God, and I dont think there is personally, he is having a laugh. Just look at the duck billed platypus and the faces humans make mid coitus.
Theology .. loads of boring people arguing over who is right on issues that no can be sure even exists .. *yawn*
secrets in symmetry
19-Feb-11, 15:31
I care. So do many others, and I'm sure many of us yawn at you yawning at us.
orkneycadian
19-Feb-11, 15:37
Can you suggest some books for a beginner to start with?
Who cares.
I care.
I think your done for now, SIS, having lusted after Pamela Stevenson earlier in the thread! (twice!) 10th commandment - "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbours wife, especially when thine neighbour is Billy Connolly!"
secrets in symmetry
19-Feb-11, 15:41
I think your done for now, SIS, having lusted after Pamela Stevenson earlier in the thread! (twice!) 10th commandment - "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbours wife, especially when thine neighbour is Billy Connolly!"Lol! I put up my hands on that one. :lol:
My excuse is that she wasn't his wife in the clips I lusted after her in. Time to run for the hills and seek enlightenment in a burning bush I think.
John Little
19-Feb-11, 15:42
God is the answer to our questions, carved out of our own fear.
annemarie482
19-Feb-11, 15:43
..... but I do believe that religion is the result of the human need to understand and comprehend what they see around them......
i totally agree.
as far as i am concerned, "god" whatever it or he/she is...
is something created to give explaination to all things unknown (or known lol)
to give strength to those who need to believe there is something looking out for them, or somewhere better to go
for those who can't accept that when a life ends, and we just cease to exist.
is a guidance for someone who's not sure how to go about their own life.
i personally do not believe in any god or such like.
i think its codswallop.
i personally think religion causes more conflict than it does good!
but i dont think any less of someone who has a faith.
if thats what they want or need in their life, well it works for them.
so who are we to burst their bubble.
orkneycadian
19-Feb-11, 15:45
God is the answer to our questions, carved out of our own fear.
Dear God, I am frightened I don't win the lottery tonight. Can you tell me what the numbers will be?
I find it interesting how many people posting here have admitted, or inferred to being non-believers.
In the 2001 Scottish census 65% people claimed to be christian, 28% claimed to have no religion.
Is the org indicative of the population as a whole?
Do you think there are more or less non believers than the 28%?
Do you think many of the 65% claiming to be christian did so because they were brought up in christian surroundings rather than because of their current beliefs?
How many of the 65% are regular church goers?
annemarie482
19-Feb-11, 15:49
How many of the 65% are regular church goers?
at a pure guess probably 5% if that.
other than a funeral, christening or wedding,
when was the last time you seen a church filled?
i can't say i've ever seen it.
John Little
19-Feb-11, 15:52
Dear God, I am frightened I don't win the lottery tonight. Can you tell me what the numbers will be?
LOL. I did not mean those sort of questions. Though now that you mention it I have met plenty who have prayed for that sort of thing- and read lots of stuff about people who say they have got that sort of stuff after they have prayed for it.
If it works for you then go for it.
orkneycadian
19-Feb-11, 15:54
Uh oh.... Just realised I have breached the 3rd Commandment - "Do not take the Lords name in vain"....
SIS, can I join you on the hike to the hills in search of that burning bush?
Went through Golspie yesterday, and just after leaving the place (going South) on the right, for a long time now the owner puts a big sign up his garden, changed regularly, yesterday it was: "In Trouble? Call on Jesus"
Can't find anything under 'J'...:confused
orkneycadian
19-Feb-11, 16:05
Can any members on here give me the number for Jesus, and when his opening hours are please?
Can any members on here give me the number for Jesus, and when his opening hours are please?
Thanks for that; much appreciated..
I have two gods Stella and a certain Merlot from New Zealand, but then any half decent (or even vaguely decent) red will do (technically would these be demi gods if I can find solace in so many?)
Religion is for sheep.
northener
19-Feb-11, 17:44
Can any members on here give me the number for Jesus, and when his opening hours are please?
In this 'Age of Austerity' there's been a few cutbacks and Jesus doesn't have a branch up here anymore.
But, if you dial 0845 JESUSISEVERYWHERE you'll get through to a 24hr call centre just ouside Mumbai. They're contracted to do all the Jesus work now.
In this 'Age of Austerity' there's been a few cutbacks and Jesus doesn't have a branch up here anymore.
But, if you dial 0845 JESUSISEVERYWHERE you'll get through to a 24hr call centre just ouside Mumbai. They're contracted to do all the Jesus work now.
Is this the one? http://www.jesuseverywhere.com/ but can't find an 0845 number..
northener
19-Feb-11, 17:49
Anyay...
"Who is God?"
Easy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hcfxm8wM0A
The Music Monster
19-Feb-11, 23:25
Okay, folks! In answer to the constructive points and questions, I would strongly recommend Immanuel Kant's Critique on Pure Reason and his Critique on Practical Reason. His work is quite objective in terms of whether or not God exists and is more concerned with the reasoning for human nature wanting/requiring the will to believe. However, Kant is not easy reading - for one thing, unless you read the original German text some of the translations can be a bit hazy!!!
If you want something readable then CS Lewis' Theological works are very good, but make sure that you get the original, unabridged texts as many Christian movements have picked and chosen their favourite bits and published books of them. Some of the best ones for looking at why people believe are Surprised by Joy and The Problem of Pain. I can recommend a few more, but I think that with these four should give you an idea of some reasons why people might want to believe.
Well, I take exception to some of the flippant comments on here, but to me they represent an uncertainty, so I won't dwell on it. I did a good few years at university studying and reading Theology and you who dismissed it as a boring thing, I don't think you know what proper theology is!!! It is far from boring but very complicated. Those of you who think that all theologians are religious, think again! Theologians are quite simply those of us who can consider arguments for and against the existence of God from a scientific - yes, that's right, Theology is a scientific based study!!! - perspective.
Religion is for sheep?! Interesting analogy, I assume you are referring to the Judeo-Christian reference of God as a shepherd - clever reference!!! It is not relevant to all the religions though... As for Demi-Gods, interesting point. It is a little known fact in the Western world that Hinduism (the "World Religion" that apparently has a multitude of Gods) is in fact a Monotheistic faith that puts a multitude of faces and characters (or avatars - to take the word back to its original meaning!) to one supreme Deity. It is a very good way of viewing the different sides of our human nature to believe.
Religion has, indeed, been the masking of many wars, but it is just that, most of the time. Why? Because people will fight for what they believe in, and who believes strongly in politics?! Hardly anyone! So, cake it in a promise of eternal life and religious garb, and more people will join up. So the politicians very often hide behind religion... BUT Religion itself, it is worth remembering, is a man made thing, faith and belief are something very different. But since I have suggested some books for those of you who are actually interested in people and their views, I won't bring in another argument just yet!!!
It's good to get back into the theological debating mode again!!
oldmarine
19-Feb-11, 23:45
If god created Adam and Eve then who is god, it cant be Jesus as he was created by god ??
If you truly believe in God, you would know the answer to your question. It's obvious you don't know the answer. When you become a believer, you will know!
John Little
19-Feb-11, 23:58
The whole thing is a waste of time as Thomas Aquinas pointed out.
There are truths of faith.
There are truths of reason.
The two cannot refute or contradict each other and any attempt to do so will end in frustration and ire.
You either believe or you do not.
If that is accepted then a lot of angst can be avoided.
oldmarine
20-Feb-11, 00:04
The whole thing is a waste of time as Thomas Aquinas pointed out.
There are truths of faith.
There are truths of reason.
The two cannot refute or contradict each other and any attempt to do so will end in frustration and ire.
You either believe or you do not.
If that is accepted then a lot of angst can be avoided.
Thomas Aquinas was a wise man in history.
The whole thing is a waste of time as Thomas Aquinas pointed out.
There are truths of faith.
There are truths of reason.
The two cannot refute or contradict each other and any attempt to do so will end in frustration and ire.
You either believe or you do not.
If that is accepted then a lot of angst can be avoided.
Very true, o getting-near-it-retired man!
Religion is for sheep?! Interesting analogy, I assume you are referring to the Judeo-Christian reference of God as a shepherd - clever reference!!!Nope! (I'm not smart enough for clever references)
So, cake it in a promise of eternal life and religious garb, and more people will join up.There we go, religion is for sheep!
"There we go, religion is for sheep!"
Hey don't you start on about Tesco!
orkneycadian
20-Feb-11, 01:01
If god created Adam and Eve then who is god....., ??
And if Adam and Eve, the only folks around at the time, were the parents of Cain and Abel (both blokes in case it is not apparant), who did Cain marry?
secrets in symmetry
20-Feb-11, 01:57
Uh oh.... Just realised I have breached the 3rd Commandment - "Do not take the Lords name in vain"....
SIS, can I join you on the hike to the hills in search of that burning bush?
Of course you can. I'll be glad of the company. But you're advised to bring your own matches as it's a wee bitty cold and damp out there at this time of year.
If it's much of a burning bush there'll be no need for matches - I thought that they were spontaneously combustible?
secrets in symmetry
20-Feb-11, 02:14
The whole thing is a waste of time as Thomas Aquinas pointed out.
There are truths of faith.
There are truths of reason.
The two cannot refute or contradict each other and any attempt to do so will end in frustration and ire.
You either believe or you do not.
If that is accepted then a lot of angst can be avoided.God, I hate agnosticism! It's such a copout.
Thanks for the book recommendations Music Monster. For some reason, I was expecting something more recent than Kant and even Lewis. I think I should start with Hawking and then go back to the Classics.
LOL. I did not mean those sort of questions. Though now that you mention it I have met plenty who have prayed for that sort of thing- and read lots of stuff about people who say they have got that sort of stuff after they have prayed for it.
If it works for you then go for it.
I used to pray and hope for the lottery winning numbers a while ago but when I realised it wasnt going to happen I've just stumbled along not being arsed about it and carried on as usual. And guess what...... I'm as contented with my life now as I would be if I won the double rollover.......or am i? ye only joking course I am.
Think gleeber might know what i'm on about.
Well, I take exception to some of the flippant comments on here, but to me they represent an uncertainty....
Really? My impression was not that the previous posters were uncertain at all, the majority (a lot more than thought would be) seemed to be fully against religion, with some obviously for it.
I did a good few years at university studying and reading Theology and you who dismissed it as a boring thing, I don't think you know what proper theology is!!! It is far from boring but very complicated. Those of you who think that all theologians are religious, think again!
I don't doubt for a second that it's interesting and complicated, but, since this thread started I've had a look around the web and think it is more the philisophical and moral aspects I'd like to explore. It seems that there is more and more literature emerging with these as separate subjects whereas before they were perhaps examined together?
Theologians are quite simply those of us who can consider arguments for and against the existence of God from a scientific - yes, that's right, Theology is a scientific based study!!! - perspective.
I don't doubt that it is thorough and methodical, but is it really scientific?
Science, for me, is the study of the subject looking for evidence. That's perhaps a simplistic description, but I think the search for hard evidence is more scientific than "considering arguments for and against the existance of god"
I think the reason that universities tend to class theology under the faculties of Arts or Divinities rather than of Science would support this.
Religion is for sheep?! Interesting analogy, I assume you are referring to the Judeo-Christian reference of God as a shepherd - clever reference!!!
Come on, I think we all know the intent of the original posters comment.
John Little
20-Feb-11, 08:17
God, I hate agnosticism! It's such a copout.
Thanks for the book recommendations Music Monster. For some reason, I was expecting something more recent than Kant and even Lewis. I think I should start with Hawking and then go back to the Classics.
St Thomas Aquinas was an agnostic?
cullpacket
20-Feb-11, 09:36
God is the best scam ever very clever but the thing that realy gets me is that he is law what's that all about?
silverlady
20-Feb-11, 09:50
Here is another book recommendation - Crazy love, by Francis Chan. Google it and his website is v interesting. God is LOVE! x
I remember the time on the Org when we had a thread discussing whether God could be discussed on the Org or not.
For someone who doesnt exist he causes an awful lot of trouble. :confused
I dont have a God but I do have a Goddess......Is that acceptable in this day and age of equality??
And if Tesco is for sheep I am sure that religion is also for sheep!!
C3.....:roll:;)
I remember the time on the Org when we had a thread discussing whether God could be discussed on the Org or not.
For someone who doesnt exist he causes an awful lot of trouble. :confused
"It should also be taken into consideration that certain topics like football or religion can very easily be misread and cause offence, so great care should be taken when dealing with these types of issues."
Pleased to see we're getting the balance right; no downright abusive posts, just good-natured banter ;)
northener
20-Feb-11, 12:35
Well, I'd jut like to thank Music Monster for pointing out just how much serious fun theology really is and that those of us who haven't answered this gripping issue with 110% seriousness obviusly don't know as much as Music Monster.
It's always nice to have someone around who can do the jolly important stuff for us poor ignorant souls.
We are not worthy.
Now, MM. I would say that all Theology is the pointless study of fantasy works. I have seen no evidence that there is a supreme being who created us and who takes an active interest in our lives.
There may be a being who had a hand in our creation - granted, but no evidence that said being(s) take any interest in our welfare has ever been produced.
Thus rendering all worship (and study of said worship) pointless.
Why people feel the need to worship a deity is another matter entirely.
Carry on.
"It should also be taken into consideration that certain topics like football or religion can very easily be misread and cause offence, so great care should be taken when dealing with these types of issues."
I've got no problem with somebody being offended by my actions, but if someone is offended by my opinions then, I think, the problem lies with them and not me.
Some might call that hypocrisy, but I won't get offended by that!
secrets in symmetry
20-Feb-11, 14:02
Northener, as MM says, and as far as I understand it, Theology encompasses far more than the study of religion. It is, or can be, abstract and systematic, and as such is more like a branch of Philosophy, including Moral Philosophy and also Logic.
The Music Monster
20-Feb-11, 14:59
Come on, I think we all know the intent of the original posters comment.
OK, I confess, that comment was a little facetious!!!
It is indeed a science, random I know! But it is about understanding the role of belief in the world, and although you can't scientifically prove in God existence, you can scientifically analyse the world that either we were brought into by a creator or we brought a creator into. Some of the most fascinating arguments are looking at why people needed a belief in a supreme being and why that altered over time.
SiS, there are some very good newer theological books, but I tend to find that in this day and age, everyone has some bias to portray either for or against the existence of God and very often they can come down on one side or another. The best period of writings in terms of unbiased texts is 18th century when the enlightenment kicked in. People were writing books to solidify their own views, not really sure what their beliefs were themselves and as such give a surprisingly objective argument. Of course, there are exceptions!!! If you find a good new book, please let me know, I can never get enough theological discussion!
I've never had a minion before, but if you're offering, Northerner, then I could create a post for you so you can truly bow down to my superior knowledge!!! As for the serious part of your post, the human psyche - I'm using the word psyche instead of soul as that seems to be something of a taboo for a lot of people - is a fascinating area of study and it is that part that connects to a higher existence, be that God or imagination. It is our human nature to require something beyond what we have, even if it is as grounded as dreams and ambitions. And as for your comment about worship, I make you a promise: worshippers get more out of worship than abstainers from worship get out of abstaining. That is fact, irrespective of God's existence. Something to think about....
OK, I confess, that comment was a little facetious!!!
It is indeed a science, random I know! But it is about understanding the role of belief in the world, and although you can't scientifically prove in God existence, you can scientifically analyse the world that either we were brought into by a creator or we brought a creator into. Some of the most fascinating arguments are looking at why people needed a belief in a supreme being and why that altered over time.
Yes, of course you can scientifically study the world, but in terms of theology, are you studying the world or the beliefs?
For me it's all a bit too subjective to be science. It's based on opinions rather than discovered facts.
Repeating myself a bit, but to me it's like the example of philosophy. More of an art than a science.
northener
20-Feb-11, 16:00
What's the pay like for a minion these days?:Razz
Yup, some interesting stuff there and I take on board the comments regarding the actual scope of Theology too.
fingalmacool
20-Feb-11, 16:27
It has always been Politically Incorrect to ridicule the church/god. The penalty not so long ago was to be burnt at the stake especially if you were a woman. But thanks to the pranks of the notorious English church with it transvestite vicars and eccentric ecclesiastics, the church has become a legitimate butt of ridicule.
Lets face it, there are no laughs in the bible, and if true, little humour in hell or purgatory and no doubt it is totally improper to giggle in heaven. I'm not sure if I'm a believer so i tend to fall back on humour, then I could be an atheist and the church i do not attend is ?
If god is good why do his peoples put lightning rods on top of steeples:confused
Dog-eared
20-Feb-11, 17:42
E' Bible
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible
it is a very passionate thing.. to speak of religion.. and more often than not angry words and hateful things are often said..
people of faith yell loudly of the power of God and how wondrous he is, and people of disbelief yell even louder of how impossible it is and belittle those who believe.
in my humble opinion.. i think Mr Shakespeare said it best in hamlet.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
this can be applied to all of us.
no, not one of us understands all the intrinsics of the universe.. not even Mr. Hawkins who may think he does.
it is an infinite equation and one i do not think in our very limited time on this mortal world will be able to unwind.
Is there a God?
a simple answer..
I believe yes, others believe no.. but we will find out when we get there.
I believe yes, others believe no.. but we will find out when we get there.
Or maybe we won't!
On the news this very day..
Nice to see.. been to a Humanist funeral - which was very moving, but pleased the wedding scene is now expanding:
More Scots wedding couples turn to humanist marriages.. There were more humanist weddings than Roman Catholic weddings in Scotland last year, according to new figures.The Registrar General for Scotland's provisional data on marriages by denomination showed humanist weddings were the third most popular ceremony. There were 1,706 humanist weddings, between January and September 2010, an increase of 35% on 2009, while Catholic weddings remained static at 1,506. There were 11,430 civil marriages and 5,013 Church of Scotland weddings.
The Humanist Society of Scotland (HSS) said it expected to see the number of humanist weddings "overtake those of the Church of Scotland in 2015".
Well there you are!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-12517893 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-12517893)
annemarie482
20-Feb-11, 18:30
well let me be the first to tell you my wedding is booked for next year june the 16th.
and its going to be a humanist wedding. :)
well let me be the first to tell you my wedding is booked for next year june the 16th.
and its going to be a humanist wedding. :)
Well done and congratulations!
well let me be the first to tell you my wedding is booked for next year june the 16th.
and its going to be a humanist wedding. :)
Congratulations.
I know little about these ceremonies other than having been to a humanist funeral, are you being married by a member of the humanist society or somebody else?
annemarie482
20-Feb-11, 18:37
Well done and congratulations!
cheers! :)
like you i have been to a humanist funeral which was lovely and far more touching than any i had been to.
i then seen a video of a humanist wedding and knew it was the perfect thing for us.
oldmarine
20-Feb-11, 18:43
I remember the time on the Org when we had a thread discussing whether God could be discussed on the Org or not.
For someone who doesnt exist he causes an awful lot of trouble. :confused
Well said gleeber.
northener
20-Feb-11, 18:59
cheers! :)
like you i have been to a humanist funeral which was lovely and far more touching than any i had been to.
i then seen a video of a humanist wedding and knew it was the perfect thing for us.
I'd guess you'll be having Kate Buchanan then, AM?
annemarie482
20-Feb-11, 19:05
I'd guess you'll be having Kate Buchanan then, AM?
yes lee :)
http://theselvedgeyard.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/eric_clapton_3.jpg
i never understood the whole humanist thing.. isn't it the same as atheism? or is it like Christianity in as much as just another denomination of the same thing.. atheism/humanist baptist/methodist kind of thing respectively.
this is a genuine question as i do not understand the difference.
i never understood the whole humanist thing.. isn't it the same as atheism? or is it like Christianity in as much as just another denomination of the same thing.. atheism/humanist baptist/methodist kind of thing respectively.
this is a genuine question as i do not understand the difference.
Hi brandy, have a read through this, quite explanatory: http://www.religioustolerance.org/at_ag_hu.htm
northener
20-Feb-11, 20:50
i never understood the whole humanist thing.. isn't it the same as atheism? or is it like Christianity in as much as just another denomination of the same thing.. atheism/humanist baptist/methodist kind of thing respectively.
this is a genuine question as i do not understand the difference.
Not quite.
Probably the best way of describing us is to link to our declaration on our website:
http://www.humanism-scotland.org.uk/what-is-humanism/amsterdam-declaration.html
No God(s), no ritual. No belief that there is a 'supreme being' who takes an active interest in our welfare...you may have heard that on another thread quite recently......;)
HTH.
northener
20-Feb-11, 20:53
Hi brandy, have a read through this, quite explanatory: http://www.religioustolerance.org/at_ag_hu.htm
Good link, Bekisman. V interesting site, not seen that site before.
i never understood the whole humanist thing.. isn't it the same as atheism? or is it like Christianity in as much as just another denomination of the same thing.. atheism/humanist baptist/methodist kind of thing respectively.
this is a genuine question as i do not understand the difference.
There's not much to understand about humanism Brandy. I knew the word when I was growing up and over the years but it never meant much to me. Then I got to understand it and realised I was a humanist. Only in the last 10 years or so. I see it as a religion. I dont have a problem with the word religion. I often read atheist type material and if theres any word that gets them worked up it's religion. I dont think all atheists could be classed as humanists but i think most humanists will be either atheists or agnostics and mostly by choice. They dont like being called religious though.:lol:
Religion implies a supernatural existance parralel to the world we really live in, Tescos and spoons and all that stuff. Humanists will know those fanciful ideas only go on in the confines of their own skulls. In one way it does but its still a world view and fundamnetal to the psychological world of the average human.
I'm an agnostic. Thats means I dont know if there's a supernatural world or not but I do know theres a physical world and once someone has a grasp of the workings and laws of nature, Gods can become extinct. But I believe that No Gods is religion too. It's confusing being agnostic. :confused
Good link, Bekisman. V interesting site, not seen that site before.
Bless you, my son
thanks for the links that was helpful! now heres the question.. since it seems that everything and i mean everything has a name.. which is the one that believes that the world is a wonderful magical place.. and there are so many things in it that the rational mind cant explain? where you can still believe in God, but also believe in ghosts and mystical mythical things as well? where you can believe in science and faith together? a faith that dosent teach hate and persecution but shows that we are all on a different paths leading to the same place?
i think that would be the one for me..
There's a thing in humanism called truth. All religions have it. In humanism it's evidence based. Eventually it may lead to the same place but if it does I suspect we will all be wrong.
northener
20-Feb-11, 22:20
thanks for the links that was helpful! now heres the question.. since it seems that everything and i mean everything has a name.. which is the one that believes that the world is a wonderful magical place.. and there are so many things in it that the rational mind cant explain? where you can still believe in God, but also believe in ghosts and mystical mythical things as well? where you can believe in science and faith together? a faith that dosent teach hate and persecution but shows that we are all on a different paths leading to the same place?
i think that would be the one for me..
If you believe in 'God' in a purely Creator way as opposed to, say, the Christian or Muslim religion, then I would say that there are many non-mainstream groups of people who are on the same wavelength as yourself. T'inerweb is a wonderful tool, Brandy.
Seek and ye shall find, eh?:Razz
Crayola would probably be more used to you here than a miserable old badtempered cynic like me, she's got a good idea of what's occurring in the Spritual and 'alternative' religion world.
Phew! after reading through this lot, pleased I ain't got a religion;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_and_spiritual_traditions.
Blimey, I didn't think you had to belong to an organised none religion now. Sounds decidedly weird to me :eek:
secrets in symmetry
21-Feb-11, 00:39
Agnosticism rarely stirs the blood like organised religion or atheism. But there's always an exception, and in this case I am it.
I hate agnosticism!
It's a lazy position, and what's worse is that most so-called agnostics don't even know the meaning of the word. Every agnostic I've ever met has been a wimp one way or another.
....here's my addition:
The second coming is nigh. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedi_census_phenomenon)
I sense in this year: 2011AD, a rising of true believers, the force is strong.
JediChurch (http://www.jedichurch.org/)
John Little
21-Feb-11, 08:41
Agnosticism rarely stirs the blood like organised religion or atheism. But there's always an exception, and in this case I am it.
I hate agnosticism!
It's a lazy position, and what's worse is that most so-called agnostics don't even know the meaning of the word. Every agnostic I've ever met has been a wimp one way or another.
Ah - the fervour of the true zealot.
Pile high the fires of the inquisition - thou shalt believe one way or another whether thou wishest or not for your position is intolerable to me and outside the purlieus of the holy blinkers.
I hate agnosticism!
It's a lazy position, and what's worse is that most so-called agnostics don't even know the meaning of the word. Every agnostic I've ever met has been a wimp one way or another.
I think I disagree.
Perhaps the agnostics are the only ones who are right.
In the absense of proven evidence, the theists and the atheists are following their own unsubstantiated beliefs. The agnostic retains an open mind.
just to be devils advocate.. it can also be said agnostics are wishy washy... and sitting on the fence. unable to make a choice for fear of making the wrong choice. a wait and see whats gonna happen mentality.
on the other hand.. it can be argued.. that to follow blindly is a very irrational thing to do.. and makes no sense.. kinda like if all your friends were jumping off a bridge would you do it too?
Agnosticism rarely stirs the blood like organised religion or atheism. But there's always an exception, and in this case I am it.
I hate agnosticism!
It's a lazy position, and what's worse is that most so-called agnostics don't even know the meaning of the word. Every agnostic I've ever met has been a wimp one way or another.
Ah - the fervour of the true zealot.
Pile high the fires of the inquisition - thou shalt believe one way or another whether thou wishest or not for your position is intolerable to me and outside the purlieus of the holy blinkers.
Pinned in one John well done.
just to be devils advocate.. it can also be said agnostics are wishy washy... and sitting on the fence. unable to make a choice for fear of making the wrong choice. a wait and see whats gonna happen mentality.
Here's what this agnostic believes....or does'nt..no, I do ,I think :confused
I believe believers in anything supernatural are deceived by their own mentality and because of various reasons to do with childhood. For example had Brandy been born in Pakistan and not America she would have been a good Muslim rather than a good Catholic.
Supernatural belief is a psychological virus passed onto beleivers by their parents and reinforced by their culture.
I am convinced of that so no wishy washy fence sitting there.
Non beleivers are a different kettle of fish. Most of us will at one time have been faced with the delemna of thinking about whether God exists or not. In a beleiver this is where faith comes in. Its basically faith in a non believer too. Faith in our doubts. What are those doubts? Are they planted in our psyche by a bad angel called Satan or is it the natural thought processes of a human being who needs to understand their environment? I believe its natural and generated in my own head by the nurturing of my upbringing. No supernatural influences in other words. Prejudiced perhaps but not supernatural
Humanists put their faith in humanity. Me too and anyone who doesnt notice the changes in human thinking over the centuries and doesnt acknowledge the evolutionary processes at work there is deluded too.
I dont know whether Humans will ever evolve into something more akin to the reverence we put on supernatural beings but i think the chances are there. Thats what makes me an agnostic.
Agnosticism rarely stirs the blood like organised religion or atheism. But there's always an exception, and in this case I am it. I hate agnosticism!
It's a lazy position, and what's worse is that most so-called agnostics don't even know the meaning of the word. Every agnostic I've ever met has been a wimp one way or another.
Calling Agnostics wimps is not really constructional. When you were born, and in your early formative years you may well have been the child of a Christian, a Muslim, whatever, but you were born Agnostic. i.e. you did not know.
Like all, initially I was an Agnostic and although belonging to a Christian Church, attending Sundays on all services - I was also in the Church Choir, I did have doubts; agnostic to it's simplest form is I just 'did not know'.
In practical fact, deeply religious believers and Atheists 'could' both be wrong. An Agnostic waits and sees.. "sitting on the fence"? - is this a veiled poke at someone's stance in all this?. maybe better to wait and see what reveals itself in life before taking a decision, and not simply following blindly the faith of the parents.
I Joined the Forces at 18 and within a year was serving in Aden.. as a teenager, I saw evil, horrendous things that are still as vivid today as they were four decades ago. A graphic introduction to raw life..
Periods of service in Northern Ireland, wondering why God allowed bombers to kill children in their nationalistic fervour, collecting bit's of same.. questions of why?
After 15 years of similar, moved onto the Fire Service.. again 'Why' if there is a just god, why did he allow those kids to die with smoke inhalation, lying there, peaceful and innocent - because the battery on the fire alarm was low (Just another minute of power god; please).. but no.. it was tragic to attend RTA's and remove children's smashed bodies from mangled wreckage.
23 March 1981, my station attended the crash that killed Mike Hailwood - he crashed head on into the side of a foreign truck that had illegally crossed the central reservation of the A435 - the truck driver was fined £100 - Mike's nine year old daughter died instantly; she sat on the backseat, unharmed, as if asleep.. now, that is moving and questioningly; why? - I apologies for bringing this up, but is all this information is publicly available..
Many other instances of incidents where I still continue to ask why did a possible god allow this to occur. Just a second or so here or there it would not have happened..
OK I may be looking at this religious thing askew, but an all-powerful being that loves everyone, is in my book untenable.
Non beleivers are a different kettle of fish. Most of us will at one time have been faced with the delemna of thinking about whether God exists or not. In a beleiver this is where faith comes in. Its basically faith in a non believer too. Faith in our doubts. What are those doubts? Are they planted in our psyche by a bad angel called Satan or is it the natural thought processes of a human being who needs to understand their environment? I believe its natural and generated in my own head by the nurturing of my upbringing. No supernatural influences in other words. Prejudiced perhaps but not supernatural
Humanists put their faith in humanity. Me too and anyone who doesnt notice the changes in human thinking over the centuries and doesnt acknowledge the evolutionary processes at work there is deluded too.
I dont know whether Humans will ever evolve into something more akin to the reverence we put on supernatural beings but i think the chances are there. Thats what makes me an agnostic.
I think this subject is overthought. I remember as a small boy sitting in church thinking, this a daft, and I've never given it a another thought since.
We cant all be as smart as you though.
*giggles* umm just to set the record straight.. ive never been a catholic, i was raised in the bible belt.. to believe the old time southern gospel, and i rebelled against that from an early age because of the strictures of the teachings. I am devout in my beliefs that God is real.. but the ins and outs of my faith are enough to confuse anyone!
i believe in ghosts.. and no they dont have to be demons and evil spirits ..
i believe in demons and evil spirits as well
also believe in angels and a host of other things.
and just to make me a nutter.. i believe in intelligent alien life.
have i seen all these things? nope not all of them..
i have seen ghosts and poltergeist activities though!
that is first hand experience and not panicked mind tricks.
im happy to let everyone believe the way they want to.. and on my agnostic post.. i did a two way street on it..
the second half just wasn't quoted *G*
ohhh i do have a pet peeve.. and its a well used one..
its if God is real why does he let this happen?
why does God let child molesters hurt children
why does God Kill Children, Mothers, fathers, loved ones..ect..
why does God allow bad things to happen..
im sure your getting my drift now..
the idea is that God dosent allow anything to happen, nor cause it.
we have free will.. the ability to make a choice to do right or wrong
according to moral statures.
we as individuals make that choice to do something.
not because God didnt stop it, but because we didnt stop ourselves.
Now i dont know how it works and its all speculation.. but with God, you will be judged when the time comes..
on the same note for those that do not belive in a higher power or and after life..
(BTW) i think that one can believe in an afterlife even if they dont God...
its not exclusive..
anyway.. we are responsible for our own actions and punishable for our own actions.. on this mortal plane by our peers and by the powers that be on the heavenly one.
we just dont know how that works out yet..
I believe believers in anything supernatural are deceived by their own mentality and because of various reasons to do with childhood. For example had Brandy been born in Pakistan and not America she would have been a good Muslim rather than a good Catholic.
Supernatural belief is a psychological virus passed onto beleivers by their parents and reinforced by their culture.
I am convinced of that so no wishy washy fence sitting there.
I would agree with most of that.
It's no coincidence the majority of religious people are of the same religion as their parents. Childhood indoctrination.
In a beleiver this is where faith comes in. Its basically faith in a non believer too.
100% agree. The Theist believes without evidence, faith, and the Athiest discounts the potential for evidence, having faith there is none.
The agnostic, who admits there is currently no way of proving "the truth" moves on without letting it influence them. He doen't rely on faith, but awaits evidence one way or the other.
I've called myself an Atheist for years, but in retrospect I'm probably an Agnostic leaning heavily towards Atheism. I think it's more likely that there is no god, but without evidence it would go against my principles of scientific judgement to completely discount the possibility.
ohhh i do have a pet peeve.. and its a well used one..
its if God is real why does he let this happen?
why does God let child molesters hurt children
why does God Kill Children, Mothers, fathers, loved ones..ect..
why does God allow bad things to happen..
im sure your getting my drift now..
the idea is that God dosent allow anything to happen, nor cause it.
we have free will.. the ability to make a choice to do right or wrong
according to moral statures.
we as individuals make that choice to do something.
not because God didnt stop it, but because we didnt stop ourselves.
Now i dont know how it works and its all speculation.. but with God, you will be judged when the time comes..
on the same note for those that do not belive in a higher power or and after life..
(BTW) i think that one can believe in an afterlife even if they dont God...
its not exclusive..
anyway.. we are responsible for our own actions and punishable for our own actions.. on this mortal plane by our peers and by the powers that be on the heavenly one.
we just dont know how that works out yet..
ok Brandy you have given me somethings to think about ,but who decided when your time is up ???
We cant all be as smart as you though.
True, but you could at least make the effort :lol:
secrets in symmetry
22-Feb-11, 00:55
There's nothing more enjoyable in this world than making intellectually lazy agnostics squirm at the worthlessness of their lack of position.
Get some backbone and join those who admit they're atheists, because I bet most of you vocal agnostics are really atheists when you get down to the nitty gritty. Most of the rest of the agnostic crowd in society are just wimps, although there is the odd agnostic theist knocking about.
John Little
22-Feb-11, 08:57
There's nothing more enjoyable in this world than making intellectually lazy agnostics squirm at the worthlessness of their lack of position.
LOL - you do have a fine view of your own capabilities. I cannot speak for anyone else but you do not even cause a ripple on my pond. I do admire the complete imperviousness of your conceit however.
There's nothing more enjoyable in this world than making intellectually lazy agnostics squirm at the worthlessness of their lack of position.
Get some backbone and join those who admit they're atheists, because I bet most of you vocal agnostics are really atheists when you get down to the nitty gritty. Most of the rest of the agnostic crowd in society are just wimps, although there is the odd agnostic theist knocking about.
As per my previous posts, up to my involvement in this thread I would have called myself an Atheist. 100%.
In reflection, now I think I'm an agnostic with leanings heavily towards atheism. An agnostic does not have to be 50% between theism and atheism. Until proven otherwise, I'll admit the slight possibility that a god could exist, even if I find it highly unlikely.
ok Brandy you have given me somethings to think about ,but who decided when your time is up ???
ummm mother nature for the most part.. we age our bodies start to fail and eventually they give out.
also, accidents, murder, and sometimes just wrong place at the wrong time.. some people just never see that bus coming.
onecalledk
22-Feb-11, 11:29
ummm mother nature for the most part.. we age our bodies start to fail and eventually they give out.
also, accidents, murder, and sometimes just wrong place at the wrong time.. some people just never see that bus coming.
Interesting debate, the problem I have with religion is that someone must be in charge, therefore it is that persons intrepretation that is being preached. Having attended sunday school when younger (church of scotland) and going to church regularly until my father died when I was younger all was fine until the church minister retired. In his place was a minister from one of the islands who's sermons were all fire and brimstone. The whole experience of going to church changed with his interpretation of what god was saying.
I also remember asking as a young child the minister why my father had died and he couldnt answer me.He didnt just come out and say he had no idea , he wrapped it up in more quotes from the bible that resulted in me asking why again until he stopped coming round.......
We as human beings have free will, no being can MAKE us do anything that we want to do. Whether the choice be good for us or not NO BEING can interfere with the choice that we make. This is where it doesnt make sense with religion , god will not stop wars, only man can do that because it is mans CHOICE to make war with his fellow human beings.
Death and destruction are human traits, it is human beings that kill other human beings. God doesnt come into it. If there is a universal law of free will then he cant get involved can he?
As everyone has their own truth and their own reality then how can anyone agree with anyone else about how the universe is created , run, ruled etc etc? We are ALL correct as we are all unique individuals experiencing completely different realities all at the one time.
Its human nature to label, so perhaps we tie ourselves in knots too much by labelling others. But then sometimes labelling others says more about us than them?
Whilst I will listen to everyones point of view and agree to disagree based on the fact that I am not them, I dont experience life the same way they do, therefore I cannot disagree with them there are others who do not. Others who seem to have an agenda to make the whole world believe what they believe. To them I would ask why?
If you are safe and secure in your belief of how your world works then why not leave everyone else to their beliefs. Why does it matter what somoene calls God or even if they dont believe in a "god". Why does there have to be a black and white in something that can only be a shade of grey?
K
Interesting debate, the problem I have with religion is that someone must be in charge, therefore it is that persons intrepretation that is being preached. Having attended sunday school when younger (church of scotland) and going to church regularly until my father died when I was younger all was fine until the church minister retired. In his place was a minister from one of the islands who's sermons were all fire and brimstone. The whole experience of going to church changed with his interpretation of what god was saying.
I also remember asking as a young child the minister why my father had died and he couldnt answer me.He didnt just come out and say he had no idea , he wrapped it up in more quotes from the bible that resulted in me asking why again until he stopped coming round.......
We as human beings have free will, no being can MAKE us do anything that we want to do. Whether the choice be good for us or not NO BEING can interfere with the choice that we make. This is where it doesnt make sense with religion , god will not stop wars, only man can do that because it is mans CHOICE to make war with his fellow human beings.
Death and destruction are human traits, it is human beings that kill other human beings. God doesnt come into it. If there is a universal law of free will then he cant get involved can he?
As everyone has their own truth and their own reality then how can anyone agree with anyone else about how the universe is created , run, ruled etc etc? We are ALL correct as we are all unique individuals experiencing completely different realities all at the one time.
Its human nature to label, so perhaps we tie ourselves in knots too much by labelling others. But then sometimes labelling others says more about us than them?
Whilst I will listen to everyones point of view and agree to disagree based on the fact that I am not them, I dont experience life the same way they do, therefore I cannot disagree with them there are others who do not. Others who seem to have an agenda to make the whole world believe what they believe. To them I would ask why?
If you are safe and secure in your belief of how your world works then why not leave everyone else to their beliefs. Why does it matter what somoene calls God or even if they dont believe in a "god". Why does there have to be a black and white in something that can only be a shade of grey?
K
onecalledk i am liking your way of thinking. I guess i am just looking for answers ,we have has a brevment in the family recently and i just dont understand why he was taken so young .probly looking for someone to blame
i love your philosophy and completely agree with it..
was you quite young when your dad died?
i never understood why they keep things from children.. they dont in my family.
sam and ben were very little when tom died.
ben was two and sam three..
we told them the baby had died.. that he was unwell and unable to live and had died.
that all people died and that it was just natures way.
we then went on to reassure them both that mummy and daddy were healthy and fine.. and so were they..
and no we had no plans of dying in the near future.. but that it was ok when people died.. and that while scary..
was just as normal as everything else.
they were both at the funeral and graveside service.. and it gave them closure.. as they knew mummy had a baby in her tummy but didnt understand where the baby went.
when their papa scott died.. we told them.. and explained to them how his heart stopped working..
that it has just gotten old and worn and decided to call it a day.. so to speak.. and that he had died and gone to heaven..
we explained why mommy and granny we so sad.. because papa was gone and we would miss him sooo much..
children understand things so much more than people give them credit for..
sorry one of my pet peeves *G*
secrets in symmetry
25-Feb-11, 01:31
LOL - you do have a fine view of your own capabilities. I cannot speak for anyone else but you do not even cause a ripple on my pond. I do admire the complete imperviousness of your conceit however.I don't cause any ripples on your pond because it's covered in 5 feet of intellectually frigid solid ice. You need to learn how to melt your emotions and learn from their secrets.
As per my previous posts, up to my involvement in this thread I would have called myself an Atheist. 100%.
In reflection, now I think I'm an agnostic with leanings heavily towards atheism. An agnostic does not have to be 50% between theism and atheism. Until proven otherwise, I'll admit the slight possibility that a god could exist, even if I find it highly unlikely.Good. From your previous posts I thought you were an agnostic atheist.
In my experience, most self styled agnostics are either agnostic atheists or ignostics, although ignostic agnostics are usually ill equipped to defend their position in any meaningful sense and tend to display their wimpiness brightly on their sleeves.
oldmarine
25-Feb-11, 02:21
When I was in Scotland during my youth I found it's citizens strong believers in the Christian faith with many different Christian churches. Reading this thread causes me to wonder what happened to all that. What happened to all those people? Are there any Christian churches or any Christian remaining in Scotland any more?
When I was in Scotland during my youth I found it's citizens strong believers in the Christian faith with many different Christian churches. Reading this thread causes me to wonder what happened to all that. What happened to all those people? Are there any Christian churches or any Christian remaining in Scotland any more?
There's plenty of churches old marine, but the amount of people using them is certainly falling.
John Little
25-Feb-11, 08:53
I don't cause any ripples on your pond because it's covered in 5 feet of intellectually frigid solid ice. You need to learn how to melt your emotions and learn from their secrets.
This- from someone who has never met me, conversed with me and knows nothing of me.
You don't cause any ripples on my pond because you have said nothing original; nothing that has not been thought before and by many people, including myself.
You pose as an intellectual, up on a high plane, with answers to things that the rest of us mere mortals cannot even contemplate.
You shoot lightning bolts of quasi-philosophical rectitude down from your clouds and succeed only in underlining how asinine your posturing is - and expect to be treated seriously.
In short, you are a religious troll and from where I sit you come over as a conceited ass, phylactory firmly strapped to your head, removing specks from your neighbours' eyes and sublimely unconscious of the beam in your own.
You must have a hide like Chobham armour.
You shoot lightning bolts of quasi-philosophical rectitudeNow that's a line from a song surely, rock opera maybe!!?
Just wish I understood what it meant!:confused
Supernatural belief is a psychological virus passed onto beleivers by their parents and reinforced by their culture
Absobloominlutely.
Hmm secrets in symmetry, seems to have a bee in his bonnet about Agnostics to quote";Agnostics tend to display their wimpiness brightly on their sleeves. There's nothing more enjoyable in this world than making intellectually lazy agnostics squirm at the worthlessness of their lack of position. Get some backbone and join those who admit they're atheists, because I bet most of you vocal agnostics are really atheists when you get down to the nitty gritty. Most of the rest of the agnostic crowd in society are just wimps, although there is the odd agnostic theist knocking about. I hate agnosticism! Every agnostic I've ever met has been a wimp one way or another. God, I hate agnosticism! It's such a copout."
Now come, come, secrets in symmetry take a deep breath and repeat after me "I will not call Agnostics wimps, or lazy, I will no longer hate them, or state they squirm, or have no backbone, because I have just noticed below a few agnostics, who do not in anyway fit the abusive category I have been stating"
Wimp: to show timidity or cowardice
a mere bagatelle:
Bill Gates: founder of Microsoft.
Carl Sagan, (1934–1996), astronomer and sceptic.
Michael Bachelet Chilean President of Chile from 2006 to 2010
Gough Whitlam(b. 1916) Prime Minister of Australia, 1972–1975
Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero (b. 1960),Prime Minister of Spain
Stephen Hawking: famous scientist and author of The Cosmos Explained.
Heinz Fisher (b. 1938) Austrian politician, President of Austria since 2004
Bob Hawke (b. 1929) 23rd Prime Minister of Australia (from 1983 to 1991)
Sir David Attenbourgh (1926-) - English natural history presenter and Anthropologist
Wim Kok (b. 1938) Dutch politician,Prime Minister of the Netherlands from 1994 to 2002.
Helen Clark (b. 1950) New Zealand politician Prime Minister of New Zealand from 1999 to 2008
Albert Einstein (1879–1955), Jewish born theoretical physicist, best known for his theory of relativity
Gerrit Zalm (b. 1952) Dutch politician, Deputy Prime Minister of the Netherlands from 2003 until 2007
Bertrand Russell 1872–1970), English philosopher and mathematician, who considered himself a philosophical agnostic,
Mark Twain American humorist, satirist, lecturer and writer most noted for his novels Adventures of Huckleberry Finn
Marie Curie (1867–1934):Polis-French physicist and chemist. Won the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1903 and the Nobel Prize in Chemistry in 1911
Charles Darwin, (1809–1882), founder of the theory of Evolution by Natural Selection, once described himself as being generally agnostic..
secrets in symmetry: and you are?:
God is.................http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxDq9P-fWMY
secrets in symmetry
25-Feb-11, 23:07
This- from someone who has never met me, conversed with me and knows nothing of me.You have posted more than 2,000 times on this forum. Your posts tell us a lot about you.
In short, you are a religious troll and from where I sit you come over as a conceited ass, phylactory firmly strapped to your head, removing specks from your neighbours' eyes and sublimely unconscious of the beam in your own.Please read what you wrote in the first quote above.
John Little
25-Feb-11, 23:17
You have posted more 2,000 times on this forum. Your posts tell us a lot about you.
Please read what you wrote and I quoted above.
You could try speaking English. Or at least one of you could.
Then people might understand what you are saying - but I do not.
secrets in symmetry
25-Feb-11, 23:23
You could try speaking English. Or at least one of you could.
Then people might understand what you are saying - but I do not.
First you throw personal insults. Then you join the lowest of the low and resort to criticism of my grammar.
I have a loyal dog like you.
There's nothing more enjoyable in this world than making intellectually lazy agnostics squirm at the worthlessness of their lack of position.
Get some backbone and join those who admit they're atheists, because I bet most of you vocal agnostics are really atheists when you get down to the nitty gritty. Most of the rest of the agnostic crowd in society are just wimps, although there is the odd agnostic theist knocking about.
Yeev called me a lot of names on this thread. Luckily ive heard them all before and sometimes at the end of an arm. :lol:
If I had to guess I would say your a fundamnetal atheist. Nothing wrong with that but next to burglars fundamental anythings are the last types anyone should have in their hoose.
There's an atheist chatroom I use on the net but I only listen I dont take part. These guys are good and theyre funny. none of them seem very spiritual but then they would deny that spiritualy exists. :eek:
John Little
25-Feb-11, 23:31
First you throw personal insults. Then you join the lowest of the low and resort to criticism of my grammar.
I have a loyal dog like you.
I'm not the one so puffed up with my own self-love that I come on here and start slagging off agnostics left right and centre. You don't want insults then I suggest you refrain from throwing them about.
As to your grammar - I am criticising nothing. I am telling you straight that I do not understand what that post says. I have read it several times and your meaning completely eludes me.
If your dog insults you or criticises your grammar then perhaps you'd better re-home it.
But I suggest that if you make your meaning clearer then the poor mutt might have a chance of understanding what you are saying.
If your dog insults you or criticises your grammar then perhaps you'd better re-home it.Or sell it to the circus!
secrets in symmetry
26-Feb-11, 00:11
Yeev called me a lot of names on this thread. Luckily ive heard them all before and sometimes at the end of an arm. :lol:
Are you a wimp, an intellectually lazy agnostic or a believer in fairy magic? I don't think you're Laurel Bush but I'm not quite convinced about that.
*giggles* umm just to set the record straight.. ive never been a catholic, i was raised in the bible belt.. to believe the old time southern gospel, and i rebelled against that from an early age because of the strictures of the teachings. I am devout in my beliefs that God is real.. but the ins and outs of my faith are enough to confuse anyone!
i believe in ghosts.. and no they dont have to be demons and evil spirits ..
i believe in demons and evil spirits as well
also believe in angels and a host of other things.
and just to make me a nutter.. i believe in intelligent alien life.
have i seen all these things? nope not all of them..
i have seen ghosts and poltergeist activities though!
that is first hand experience and not panicked mind tricks.
im happy to let everyone believe the way they want to.. and on my agnostic post.. i did a two way street on it..
the second half just wasn't quoted *G*
I'm kind of the same. I'd be in the humanist category if i didn't believe in spirits.
Where to put myself? I don't know so i'll put myself in the category marked me lol.
Interestingly enough I'm non of those things. Your no very good are you? :)
And if Adam and Eve, the only folks around at the time, were the parents of Cain and Abel (both blokes in case it is not apparant), who did Cain marry?
There isn't many times i agree with you but i have to agree with you here.
If god created Adam and Eve and no one else then where did the lassie Cain married and had children with come from? This story of creation just simply does not make sense.
Are you a wimp, an intellectually lazy agnostic or a believer in fairy magic? I don't think you're Laurel Bush but I'm not quite convinced about that.
I too am of the same agnostic thinking as gleeber, I neither consider myself as a wimp, lazy or a believer in fairy magic, and I am not Laurel Bush..........but you are IMO a Troll
secrets in symmetry
26-Feb-11, 01:09
There isn't many times i agree with you but i have to agree with you here.
If god created Adam and Eve and no one else then where did the lassie Cain married and had children with come from? This story of creation just simply does not make sense.Cain and Abel were the first and second born. There were many, many more children of Adam and Eve.
Cain and Abel were the first and second born. There were many, many more children of Adam and Eve.
But it would still be incest. The story does not make any sense at all.
There isn't many times i agree with you but i have to agree with you here.
If god created Adam and Eve and no one else then where did the lassie Cain married and had children with come from? This story of creation just simply does not make sense.
Both Cain and Able were born after Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden of Eden by God into the Wilderness.
After Cain Killed Able he went to the land of NOD and there he met his Wife who bore him a son that he named Enoch.
So it would appear that these were other people around, or at least in the land of NOD.
secrets in symmetry
26-Feb-11, 01:23
But it would still be incest. The story does not make any sense at all.Incest is a recent concept by Biblical standards.
Adam and Eve were created by God and as such were perfect. So were their offspring. Genetic errors crept in due to human failings, and the laws against incest became necessary later.
Thousands of years of Theology have answered all these simple questions and many others besides. That's why the Church is still with us.
I do have to incline to my thoughts about the story of creation. To me it doesn't makes any sense and the big bang theory is a much more beliveable one.
secrets in symmetry
26-Feb-11, 01:32
I do have to incline to my thoughts about the story of creation. To me it doesn't makes any sense and the big bang theory is a much more beliveable one.Tell me about the big bang theory and why you believe it.
oldmarine
26-Feb-11, 04:04
Both Cain and Able were born after Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden of Eden by God into the Wilderness.
After Cain Killed Able he went to the land of NOD and there he met his Wife who bore him a son that he named Enoch.
So it would appear that these were other people around, or at least in the land of NOD.
Looks like Kodiak may have read the bible to get this reply.
Aaldtimer
26-Feb-11, 04:33
"Thousands of years of Theology have answered all these simple questions and many others besides. That's why the Church is still with us."
LOLOLOLOLOLOL!:lol:
weezer 316
26-Feb-11, 12:08
Id suggest reading The god delusion by Richard Dawkins. Anyone who believes in god will be an athiest after that.
As for the big bank theory, we "believe" it simply because it matches the observations we have made, with respect to an expanding universe and what we know of the laws of gravity.
John Little
26-Feb-11, 12:12
[QUOTE As for the big bank theory, we "believe" it simply because it matches the observations we have made, with respect to an expanding universe and what we know of the laws of gravity.[/QUOTE]
Weezer - forgive me - I know it's a typo but that has to be the profoundest comment I have read to date on the current economic situation. :)
Id suggest reading The god delusion by Richard Dawkins. Anyone who believes in god will be an athiest after that.
Apart from the ones who have read it and continue to believe in God.
Id suggest reading The god delusion by Richard Dawkins. Anyone who believes in god will be an athiest after that.
As for the big bank theory, we "believe" it simply because it matches the observations we have made, with respect to an expanding universe and what we know of the laws of gravity.
I don't agree with that.
Anyone who believes in god probably still will.
What it might do is sway the opinion of those who either aren't sure or haven't given it much thought.
I saw this video before reading his books, whatever your thoughts, it's quite interesting and well presented.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9112899495889928903#
weezer 316
26-Feb-11, 12:48
Bang! Apologies! I cant spoke or right type :-p
Secrets in symmetry, seriously, think critically. And I put it to you that you are an athiest the same as me, but that I simply believe in one god less.
secrets in symmetry
26-Feb-11, 13:41
Both Cain and Able were born after Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden of Eden by God into the Wilderness.
After Cain Killed Able he went to the land of NOD and there he met his Wife who bore him a son that he named Enoch.
So it would appear that these were other people around, or at least in the land of NOD.I have seen that interpretation of the Bible before but, I don't know why people make it. A simpler interpretration, and one that is consistent with Genesis, is that the Land of Nod was populated by other descendents of Adam and Eve.
"Thousands of years of Theology have answered all these simple questions and many others besides. That's why the Church is still with us."
LOLOLOLOLOLOL!:lol:You may laugh, but it is true. How else would religion survive?
Id suggest reading The god delusion by Richard Dawkins. Anyone who believes in god will be an athiest after that.
As for the big bank theory, we "believe" it simply because it matches the observations we have made, with respect to an expanding universe and what we know of the laws of gravity.I suspect you have much to learn. Tell me about the big bang's predictions for those observations it doesn't agree with, and keep a straight face.
secrets in symmetry
26-Feb-11, 13:46
Interestingly enough I'm non of those things. Your no very good are you? :)You think?
Oh, no, that's wrong, you're an agnostic. :lol:
weezer 316
27-Feb-11, 22:08
I have seen that interpretation of the Bible before but, I don't know why people make it. A simpler interpretration, and one that is consistent with Genesis, is that the Land of Nod was populated by other descendents of Adam and Eve.
You may laugh, but it is true. How else would religion survive?
I suspect you have much to learn. Tell me about the big bang's predictions for those observations it doesn't agree with, and keep a straight face.
I do indeed have much to learn, and thankfully an open mind to learn it with.
How this for starters about the big bang (k):
Edwin Hubble discovered that most galaxies are moving away from us, and each other, in the 1920's. Today, the speed of the expansion has been measured. Measuring the amount of mass we can see, the gravitation of each galaxy can be measured ( it is inversely proportional to the square of the distance from the galaxy). This figure, allied to the speed of the galaxy (measured using various techniques such as redshift, type 1a supernovae) the maths can be worked backwards to arrive at a point where its belived the universe started 13.7 billion years ago. I am sure you are aware of all this though in dismissing it as false.
Now...unlike the bible/koran/a.n.other religious text, this theory may we be proven totally wrong, and the theory shall be revised and updated with new information. It may also be reinforced. Has the bible ever been revised to account for instances where it was proven to be totally wrong?
weezer 316
27-Feb-11, 22:10
And symmetry, answer me this. How, assuming you do not have an in depth knowledge of ALL the world religons, can you dismiss another religion in favour of your own?
ShelleyCowie
27-Feb-11, 23:49
Me and the hubby were just talking about this topic.
Personally, we dont believe in any god or greater good. I just think that the whole thing doesnt make sense to be honest. How could life or earth have been created only 10 000 years ago, (pure guess btw) when there is scientific proof that dinosaurs walked this earth over 160 million years ago and the earth is over 5 billion years old.
Do people believe that he fed the 5000 on just a few loafs of bread and some fish? If so, how? Because he is God he can do what he likes? Is it miracles or magic? i could walk into T In the park with 3 bottles of pepsi and 2 bottles of lemonade and quench everybodys thirst. If anyone says i cant then prove it.
The concept of believing in something iv never seen, not for me! Dinosaur bones have been found all over the earth.
If there are people who want to believe, thats fine. I guess i cant understand why. iv heard people say they "feel" his presence, its something iv never felt. I dont need something/someone to "pray" too. If i want something then i try and make it happen on my own will. No roof that i pray too is going to do anything for me is it?
Sorry, its just the way me and my husband feel about religion. We are stone cold atheists, but are open to fair debate about the topic.
Quote from the Qur'an aswell,
"And God has created every animal from water. Of them there are some that creep on their bellies, some that walk on two legs and some that walk on four. God creates what he wills for verily God has power over all things."
if god has power over ALL things, why does he test everything (earthquakes, floods, tsunami, volcanic eruptions, war etc etc etc) people die so young, what reason does he have to do this if he exists? If someone close to you dies, would you not question where is your god now?
shelly that is why i am questioning wither there is a god or not as i have lost a family member recently and cannot understand if there is a god then why he would allow this to happen .The suffering it has caused is heartbreaking .
shelly that is why i am questioning wither there is a god or not as i have lost a family member recently and cannot understand if there is a god then why he would allow this to happen .The suffering it has caused is heartbreaking .
You should look into other avenues and try a different way of thinking. I used to be a atheist and non religious. Now i believe in something that i properly always have done just never found it untill now.
Religions give you a way of thinking and often tell you how to think. Once you break from that and think about what you think is true then you've found what you believe in.
Also remember your family member is not gone if you still remember them and celebrate the life they had not the death they had.
secrets in symmetry
03-Mar-11, 00:36
I do indeed have much to learn, and thankfully an open mind to learn it with.
How this for starters about the big bang (k):
Edwin Hubble discovered that most galaxies are moving away from us, and each other, in the 1920's. Today, the speed of the expansion has been measured. Measuring the amount of mass we can see, the gravitation of each galaxy can be measured ( it is inversely proportional to the square of the distance from the galaxy). This figure, allied to the speed of the galaxy (measured using various techniques such as redshift, type 1a supernovae) the maths can be worked backwards to arrive at a point where its belived the universe started 13.7 billion years ago. I am sure you are aware of all this though in dismissing it as false.Do you really not know that the gravity due to the observed mass in galaxies is nowhere near sufficient to account for the rotation rates in the outer regions of their spiral arms and that gravity tends to reduce the expansion rate of the universe whereas observations tell us its expansion is accelerating? Or are you attempting to test my knowledge? I know which I think it is, but I'll let you answer for yourself.
You might have mentioned the flatness and horizon problems and some more that I'll leave you to go and find out about for yourself.
Now...unlike the bible/koran/a.n.other religious text, this theory may we be proven totally wrong, and the theory shall be revised and updated with new information. It may also be reinforced. Has the bible ever been revised to account for instances where it was proven to be totally wrong?The Bible has been revised so often that today's versions must be right. :)
And symmetry, answer me this. How, assuming you do not have an in depth knowledge of ALL the world religons, can you dismiss another religion in favour of your own?Which religion do you think I'm dismissing? Your big bang one, the agnostics' lack of one, or something else that you have somehow convinced yourself that I've bad mouthed?
weezer 316
03-Mar-11, 13:04
Symmetry,
Nice try. Point 1 is dark matter accounting for the mass we cannot see and dark energy which is creating space between galaxies. This is science. What has the bible brought to this work on the expansion of the universe?
2:Revised when, by whom and crucially where is the change log to show this?
3:You are dismissing all religions bar your own. They cannot all be right and be the one true faith. Therefore why have you chosen your own faith over competing faiths?
ps: big bang aint a religion, it involves no faith other than the faith in our own eyes and propose theories consistent with those observations
Now I would like an answer to the questions above. And dont even think about playing the god has made stuff that is beyond us card. That would be laziness and nto an answer at all
secrets in symmetry
05-Mar-11, 00:30
That's a better answer than I expected, but I'm still not sure whether your original post was shoddy because you genuinely didn't understand the problem and had to look it up, or if you were trying to find out how much I knew. If it's the latter, you will know that dark matter (assuming it exists and whatever it may be) has not been observed directly, and that dark energy is even more of a mystery.
Your point about lazy claims that God has done stuff that's beyond us is a good one. It's intellectual laziness and is almost as bad as the agnostics' cop out.
One of my ambitions is to create my own Universe, but I'm a bit away from that yet. Any tips you can provide will be accepted gracefully.
One of my ambitions is to create my own Universe, but I'm a bit away from that yet. Any tips you can provide will be accepted gracefully.
You underestimate your own ability. You already live in your own universe. :roll:
weezer 316
05-Mar-11, 11:31
You underestimate your own ability. You already live in your own universe. :roll:
That, my man (or woman) is a quote! Genuis!
weezer 316
05-Mar-11, 11:34
That's a better answer than I expected, but I'm still not sure whether your original post was shoddy because you genuinely didn't understand the problem and had to look it up, or if you were trying to find out how much I knew. If it's the latter, you will know that dark matter (assuming it exists and whatever it may be) has not been observed directly, and that dark energy is even more of a mystery.
Your point about lazy claims that God has done stuff that's beyond us is a good one. It's intellectual laziness and is almost as bad as the agnostics' cop out.
One of my ambitions is to create my own Universe, but I'm a bit away from that yet. Any tips you can provide will be accepted gracefully.
Wasnt a test of any kind, and dont try and distract me away. Answer the questions I posed in my last post, seeing as those same questions seem to be beyond most who read religious texts and believe them. Consider that a test if you wil
The Music Monster
05-Mar-11, 12:40
Symmetry,
Nice try. Point 1 is dark matter accounting for the mass we cannot see and dark energy which is creating space between galaxies. This is science. What has the bible brought to this work on the expansion of the universe?
2:Revised when, by whom and crucially where is the change log to show this?
3:You are dismissing all religions bar your own. They cannot all be right and be the one true faith. Therefore why have you chosen your own faith over competing faiths?
ps: big bang aint a religion, it involves no faith other than the faith in our own eyes and propose theories consistent with those observations
Now I would like an answer to the questions above. And dont even think about playing the god has made stuff that is beyond us card. That would be laziness and nto an answer at all
1 - The Bible states that God is everything and everything is God, hence the universe that is God is expanding out into dark matter which is also God. Don't be so blinkered as to suppose that the Garden of Eden was ever supposed to be a literal text, rather it was - as most of Genesis is - a metaphorical writing.
2 - From the very early stages of compiling the Bible (even pre-Christian, because the Hebrew Bible was also revised several times the evidence of this being in the Dead Sea Scrolls) the Church has constantly revised the Biblical texts, most specifically with new translations. Ancient Greek - which the New Testament was written in - had somewhere in the region of 4 times the amount of words the English language did at the time of its first translation into English. The key revisions to Biblical texts (excluding the choice of cannon which has been ongoing since the Gospels first began to be written) began as a way of solving dogmatic queries at the councils in Nicea and Constantinople back when the years only had three figures! Since then, the next major overhaul of liturgy - excluding in answer to the theological debates that arose - was the Council of Trent that ran from 1545-1563. Since then the Bible has been revised many, many times and proof of this is in the "editions" you can find (eg Gideon's, New International, Jerusalem, The Promise to name but a few).
3 - Christians do not dismiss other religions, that is just nonsense. All religions have truths in them and they all have things that we would all benefit by considering. God is God, it does not matter how or if He is perceived as such. Why should it matter if I call God "Brahma", Yahweh", "Jesus", "Allah", or "Waheguru" (listed here in order of created religion in case you were wondering)? I have my own faith for my own reasons, as everyone, I expect does themselves. It really depends on how best you need to see God on which religion, if any, you chose.
ps Correct me if I'm wrong - but I know I'm not - but... while the Big Bang may not be a religion, the theory was created by a very religious man... Think about it. And I would suggest that we will never know all there is to know - there will always be something beyond us.
orkneycadian
05-Mar-11, 12:50
Don't be so blinkered as to suppose that the Garden of Eden was ever supposed to be a literal text, rather it was - as most of Genesis is - a metaphorical writing.
Is that not potentially a "get out of jail free card" that can be played as and when required when historical writings, and modern science diverge? In the past, such writings were "taken as Gospel", meaning that "if thats what it said, then thats what it was". Even popular definitions of Gospels include such terminology as "written accounts". As time progresses, we are encouraged to think of such Gospels in a much more metaphorical sense, and to take them less and less literally as more and more scientific theories are proven. At what points to historical written accounts become so metaphorical, they can be interepreted any way you like, and the meaning of them bear no resemblance to what is written in them? :confused
Don't be so blinkered as to suppose that the Garden of Eden was ever supposed to be a literal text, rather it was - as most of Genesis is - a metaphorical writing.
Jesus believed the Garden of Eden account.
John Little
05-Mar-11, 16:02
Jesus believed the Garden of Eden account.
Did he say so?
weezer 316
05-Mar-11, 16:22
1 - The Bible states that God is everything and everything is God, hence the universe that is God is expanding out into dark matter which is also God. Don't be so blinkered as to suppose that the Garden of Eden was ever supposed to be a literal text, rather it was - as most of Genesis is - a metaphorical writing.
2 - From the very early stages of compiling the Bible (even pre-Christian, because the Hebrew Bible was also revised several times the evidence of this being in the Dead Sea Scrolls) the Church has constantly revised the Biblical texts, most specifically with new translations. Ancient Greek - which the New Testament was written in - had somewhere in the region of 4 times the amount of words the English language did at the time of its first translation into English. The key revisions to Biblical texts (excluding the choice of cannon which has been ongoing since the Gospels first began to be written) began as a way of solving dogmatic queries at the councils in Nicea and Constantinople back when the years only had three figures! Since then, the next major overhaul of liturgy - excluding in answer to the theological debates that arose - was the Council of Trent that ran from 1545-1563. Since then the Bible has been revised many, many times and proof of this is in the "editions" you can find (eg Gideon's, New International, Jerusalem, The Promise to name but a few).
3 - Christians do not dismiss other religions, that is just nonsense. All religions have truths in them and they all have things that we would all benefit by considering. God is God, it does not matter how or if He is perceived as such. Why should it matter if I call God "Brahma", Yahweh", "Jesus", "Allah", or "Waheguru" (listed here in order of created religion in case you were wondering)? I have my own faith for my own reasons, as everyone, I expect does themselves. It really depends on how best you need to see God on which religion, if any, you chose.
ps Correct me if I'm wrong - but I know I'm not - but... while the Big Bang may not be a religion, the theory was created by a very religious man... Think about it. And I would suggest that we will never know all there is to know - there will always be something beyond us.
Holes abound. Ill point out just a few and ask you to counter them;
George Lemaitre was indeed the father of the big bang theory, and he was a priest to boot. It was, and still is, one of the greatest pieces of science of all time.
Now, to your points. First of all, and you can attach anyone who belives morals come from the bible to this also, how, and based on what 'biblical' measure, does a passage in the bible be treated as literal or as symbiolic?
I put to you that you claim things like deuteronomy are symbolic simply because the law of the land and the current culture you live in says that the actions that take place in such books are horrendous crimes and you would be a social outcast if you publicly supported things like gang rape of female guests at inns in order to spare a man from a baying mob!
Secondly, revisions are not revisions in the sense that we know today. Has the church declared that the earth is 4.5 billion years old in the face of overwhelmingly evidence that it is that age and that modern day humans have been around for only around 200 000 years? No it has not. All that has taken place is a reinterpretation of the same old words nd not a revision with new evidence as takes place constantly with science.
And thirdly, you are dismissing all other religions. You cannot be both monotheistic and polytheistic, or belive 2 stories of creation. So tell me, was the world created in 7 days or was the world dreamed into existence as the aborigines believe? And how to you decide which to beleive?
Im summary, you are picking and choosing what to believe from the bible and this changes all the time as science advances.
Please do reply
weezer 316
05-Mar-11, 16:23
Also, your point that there may always be something beyond us is true. However what does that have to do with religion or even be seen as confirmation of its accuracy????
orkneycadian
05-Mar-11, 16:26
Did he say so?
According to this website (http://www.bible-history.com/old-testament/adam-and-eve.html), yes, for it says....
"Jesus believed in the Garden of Eden, and taught that Adam and Eve were two literal people that existed in history."
So on the one hand, Genesis is metaphorical, on the other, literal. Oh no! Ambiguity!
weezer 316
05-Mar-11, 16:28
Well put orkneycadian. I wouldnt be suprised if there is no more answers to this thread either
Any ambiguity is man made. Jesus believed that Adam and Eve were real people. What better witness is there?
John Little
05-Mar-11, 18:13
According to this website (http://www.bible-history.com/old-testament/adam-and-eve.html), yes, for it says....
"Jesus believed in the Garden of Eden, and taught that Adam and Eve were two literal people that existed in history."
So on the one hand, Genesis is metaphorical, on the other, literal. Oh no! Ambiguity!
I cannot find it - could you oblige me please by linking where it says that Jesus believed that? Thanks.
According to this website (http://www.bible-history.com/old-testament/adam-and-eve.html), yes, for it says....
"Jesus believed in the Garden of Eden, and taught that Adam and Eve were two literal people that existed in history."
So on the one hand, Genesis is metaphorical, on the other, literal. Oh no! Ambiguity!
Was he a him or a her? Was he Black or White? etc etc.
John Little
05-Mar-11, 18:32
I cannot find it - could you oblige me please by linking where it says that Jesus believed that? Thanks.
Ah - I have it - sorry I got confused; "Jesus believed in the Garden of Eden, and taught that Adam and Eve were two literal people that existed in history. Paul the Apostle also believed in the Garden of Eden"
Can anyone tell me where this comes from in the bible please?
Was he a him or a her? Was he Black or White? etc etc.
Your no stupid Sandy but you don't half ask stupid questions. :lol:
Jesus would have believed everything he was taught about his religion. Mind you, It wasn't religion in his day it was fact. Just like children from a fundamentalist home will believe it if they are taught it today.
Old testament..Genesis methinks
Jesus is speaking here: Mark 10:6-9
Other general backing from the Bible:
1 Chronicles chapters 1 -9 and Luke 3 have ancestral lists which go back to Adam. Others on the lists include Solomon, David, Jacob, Isaac, Abraham. These are real people.
Paul: ACTS 17:26.
ROMANS 5:12, 14
1 CORINTHIANS 15:45
1 TIMOTHY 2:13
JUDE 14
John Little
05-Mar-11, 18:40
Not old testment stuff - that was before Jesus's time. What I want to know is where in the New Testament does it say that Jesus believed in the Garden of Eden, and taught that Adam and Eve were two literal people that existed in history.
That's all.
Gosh, atheists, don't you get really hacked off about this god who doesn't exist but in whom people seem to continue to believe, against all logic. How very dare they! Bet the Big Man's having a chuckle watching you get all frothy mouthed and purple veined about those who dare to believe that there's something a wee bit bigger than logic out there. Why do you have to expend so much energy and rage trying to demolish something so precious to so many people? And why do you tend to be a bit on the preachy side?
If it doesn't exist, it doesn't matter........and yet you continue to shake sticks at a non-existent being you don't seem to like anyway. I think you do protest too much. Fascinating.
Your no stupid Sandy but you don't half ask stupid questions. :lol:
Jesus would have believed everything he was taught about his religion. Mind you, It wasn't religion in his day it was fact. Just like children from a fundamentalist home will believe it if they are taught it today.
Yes I agree with you...noooooooo Stooooopppidddd
But there are so many beliefs, so many ideas, so many opinions...and every one is correct...to that peson, sect etc! We as individuals believe in what we believe, but then some change their mind. As death and olde age approaches, some find the Lord, others leave HIM.
John Little
05-Mar-11, 18:44
My bible at Mark 10,6-9 says 'But from the beginning of the creation Male and Female made he them....'
It does not mention Adam and Eve.
I will look at the rest.
Where is our resident expert Canuck?
John Little
05-Mar-11, 18:50
Well now I have looked through my bible at all the New Testament stuff. I can see that St Paul makes a lot of reference to Adam and Eve and that there's a good chance he believed in Adam and Eve.
But nowhere can I find that Jesus believed the Adam and Eve story.
Which leads me to believe that somebody made that up. There is no evidence for it.
weezer 316
05-Mar-11, 18:51
Gosh, atheists, don't you get really hacked off about this god who doesn't exist but in whom people seem to continue to believe, against all logic. How very dare they! Bet the Big Man's having a chuckle watching you get all frothy mouthed and purple veined about those who dare to believe that there's something a wee bit bigger than logic out there. Why do you have to expend so much energy and rage trying to demolish something so precious to so many people? And why do you tend to be a bit on the preachy side?
If it doesn't exist, it doesn't matter........and yet you continue to shake sticks at a non-existent being you don't seem to like anyway. I think you do protest too much. Fascinating.
Gosh indeed. You know what, sentences like "there is something a wee bit bigger than logic out there" are why people like me exert energy arguing against religion. Why is the bible taken as fact by christians? Because its old? Surely you must apply reason to what is presented before you and not just believe because a book that is 2000 years old says so! Surely you must! And if not, why not?
And any chance you could care to answer my points raised on page 8? Or just try and moan about athiests some more
Oh alright! I'm not moaning about atheists, I'm laughing about them - they do tend to take themselves far too seriously. People who take themselves too seriously tend to lack humility, and always think they are right. I don't actually care for the ins and outs of biblical chicanery - just the simple thing that there's a Big Thing out there which is bigger than us, and provides us with some jolly ideas on how to be nice, even if human nature occasionally militates for us to behave the other way. Lighten up!
Gosh, atheists, don't you get really hacked off about this god who doesn't exist but in whom people seem to continue to believe, against all logic. How very dare they! Bet the Big Man's having a chuckle watching you get all frothy mouthed and purple veined about those who dare to believe that there's something a wee bit bigger than logic out there. Why do you have to expend so much energy and rage trying to demolish something so precious to so many people? And why do you tend to be a bit on the preachy side?
If it doesn't exist, it doesn't matter........and yet you continue to shake sticks at a non-existent being you don't seem to like anyway. I think you do protest too much. Fascinating.
What! "all frothy mouthed and purple veined, expend so much energy and rage " - don't know what forum you're reading, but it ain't this one! My goodness you certainly are way, way out there..
Personally I find all superstitions (sic) religions, a total bore, and which are all so very unnecessary.. Usually if you're born into a Muslim family you'll be a Muslim, born in a Christian family, you'll be a Christian, born to a Hindu family, you'll be a Hindu, born..... not worth going on but you get the gist?
Bottom line: In reality, NO ONE has any idea why we are here, we're just little insects that crawl upon the earth - usually killing each other, by the premise of "my god is better than your god".. Good grief, is religion really needed?
But then, on the other hand I am gracious enough to accept that we are all entitled to our views and beliefs, but if anyone tries to shove religion down my throat, I object.
Oppps, just seen on the news that a group of fundamental agnostics have blown up a church in Lincoln, and stop press.. An atheist suicide bomber has attacked a Woman's Institute prayer meeting...
We are really very, very minor, certain religions believe the earth was formed just 10,000 years ago.. we've got an awful lot of discovering to do for the next 10,000!
Yours (frothy mouthed,purple veined, raging) Basingstoke
weezer 316
05-Mar-11, 19:22
Very light my friend. But again fallacies flow from you:
"A Big Thing out there which is bigger than us, and provides us with some jolly ideas on how to be nice"
What ideas would that be? You cannot be talking about the bible surely!?!
And why? Hows that? Why would you suspend reason and belive something like that?
Fallacies? Because YOU say so? Don't get previous! And no, I wasn't talking about the bible: brilliant and resonant writing in the Authorised Version, but not all to be taken literally, or sometimes even at all - especially when various parts of this multi-authored and multi-translated work invite you, for example, to turn the other cheek whilst extracting an eye for an eye.
I AM guilty of suspending reason. Hands up, there. Guilty as charged. I suspend reason because i CAN and because I WANT to: when I watch a play, I turn on my "willing suspension of disbelief" because it is necessary. Otherwise, all I see in the prosaic world is a bunch of people wearing other peoples' clothes and shouting out other peoples' words. That is reason, and I think it's a bit over-rated! Let us add the dimensions of joy, of light, of music, of dance, of festivities, of mysteries, and all the trappings of Faeryland to our otherwise humdrum and Pecksniffian tight-lipped existence. It does actually work, even when naysayers and doom merchants rail against its panglossian panoplies.
There! I feel SO much better. I'm sorry you don't!
That's a good blast Meerkat. Good to clear the tubes now and again.Your just as bad as the rest of them.
Welcome to the org. You'll fit in here. ;)
My bible at Mark 10,6-9 says 'But from the beginning of the creation Male and Female made he them....'
It does not mention Adam and Eve.
I will look at the rest.
Jesus was referring to Gen 1:27 and Gen 2:24. So he was using the example of the first couple.
I was just thinking that Gleeber (he's one of us after all!) ;)
Thanks Gleeber. I really do take that as a compliment! It's good to have a chuckle occasionally - I can't help noticing that "serious" people are usually to blame for wars and scandals and general nastiness!
Gleeber - Ta. I take that as a compliment!
It's a compliment indeed. Who was it who said, there's always a little bit of heaven in a disaster area?
It's a compliment indeed. Who was it who said, there's always a little bit of heaven in a disaster area?
After a quick Google I discovered it was Hugh Romney.
After another quick Google I discovered he is an actor who runs a summer camp with his wife to help kids.
You learn something every day! :)
I thought it was Jeff Bridges the actor when he was introducing an act at the Woodstock festival in the 60s.
Did another search and it said it was Wavy Gravy, so looked up Wavy Gravy and it's Hugh Romney again. It was at Woodstock though.
Not old testment stuff - that was before Jesus's time. What I want to know is where in the New Testament does it say that Jesus believed in the Garden of Eden, and taught that Adam and Eve were two literal people that existed in history.
That's all.
Humor me...Was I wrong?
weezer 316
05-Mar-11, 21:02
Fallacies? Because YOU say so? Don't get previous! And no, I wasn't talking about the bible: brilliant and resonant writing in the Authorised Version, but not all to be taken literally, or sometimes even at all - especially when various parts of this multi-authored and multi-translated work invite you, for example, to turn the other cheek whilst extracting an eye for an eye.
I AM guilty of suspending reason. Hands up, there. Guilty as charged. I suspend reason because i CAN and because I WANT to: when I watch a play, I turn on my "willing suspension of disbelief" because it is necessary. Otherwise, all I see in the prosaic world is a bunch of people wearing other peoples' clothes and shouting out other peoples' words. That is reason, and I think it's a bit over-rated! Let us add the dimensions of joy, of light, of music, of dance, of festivities, of mysteries, and all the trappings of Faeryland to our otherwise humdrum and Pecksniffian tight-lipped existence. It does actually work, even when naysayers and doom merchants rail against its panglossian panoplies.
There! I feel SO much better. I'm sorry you don't!
Meerkat, not because I say so, but because stacks and stacks of evidence point to the bible, and every other religious text, to be wrong! So please less of the mccarthyim and 14yo girl bitterness.
And suspending reason for a play, which is by default a piece of entertainment and suspending reason when it comes to how the world started, how should you act in day to day life and how you treat others, are two totally differnnt things entirely. People dont fly planes into buildings or start wars over hamlet do they??
Feel free to descend into outright name calling and slander in your next post, I wont mind
TBH, I haven't bothered myself to read all the posts on this thread; but I'd love to say (awaiting the massive back-lash: which I won't be responding to BTW !!)
Christ is My Redeemer and I am happy to be comforted by Him in all that I do and all that I am......
TBH, I haven't bothered myself to read all the posts on this thread; but I'd love to say (awaiting the massive back-lash: which I won't be responding to BTW !!)
Playing the martyr Cherokee? :lol:
[QUOTE=cherokee;827106]TBH, I haven't bothered myself to read all the posts on this thread; but I'd love to say (awaiting the massive back-lash: which I won't be responding to BTW !!)
[B][I][COLOR=purple]Christ is My Redeemer and I am happy to be comforted by Him in all that I do and all that I am.....
And I am happy for you. If it feels good go for it!
weezer 316
05-Mar-11, 21:31
TBH, I haven't bothered myself to read all the posts on this thread; but I'd love to say (awaiting the massive back-lash: which I won't be responding to BTW !!)
Christ is My Redeemer and I am happy to be comforted by Him in all that I do and all that I am......
Well that says it all really. Thankfully your number is dwindling and long may it continue to do so. Saying that, I would defend your right to believe what you want to the death
Dear Weezer!
I detect the beginnings of froth. My job is done here. With best wishes from your favourite 14 year old MacCarthyite! (Which I take to be neither name calling or slander...)
Pip pip, stout fellow! May your God go with you!
(You'll find him in the mirror.....)
weezer 316
05-Mar-11, 22:31
Your job is done? What was that exactly? Spread ignorance and hatred?
And my god is reason, as opposed to yours who doesn't exist
This might be a nice time to introduce the Bible's comments on the existence of God.
Romans 1:20 (NIV):
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
I tend to agree with this. I find it hard to understand how someone cannot see evidence of a Creator within creation.
Cat, pigeons, among etc. etc. :)
weezer 316
05-Mar-11, 23:35
Now we are talking. How is you/me/my cat evidence of a supreme being that created the universe? Please elaborate?
secrets in symmetry
05-Mar-11, 23:36
I do indeed have much to learn, and thankfully an open mind to learn it with.
How this for starters about the big bang (k):
Edwin Hubble discovered that most galaxies are moving away from us, and each other, in the 1920's. Today, the speed of the expansion has been measured. Measuring the amount of mass we can see, the gravitation of each galaxy can be measured ( it is inversely proportional to the square of the distance from the galaxy). This figure, allied to the speed of the galaxy (measured using various techniques such as redshift, type 1a supernovae) the maths can be worked backwards to arrive at a point where its belived the universe started 13.7 billion years ago. I am sure you are aware of all this though in dismissing it as false.
Now...unlike the bible/koran/a.n.other religious text, this theory may we be proven totally wrong, and the theory shall be revised and updated with new information. It may also be reinforced. Has the bible ever been revised to account for instances where it was proven to be totally wrong?
Wasnt a test of any kind, and dont try and distract me away.
Thanks for your honesty. You may have got it wrong with the first post above, but you've learned something from this, and that must be good. Moreover, you are holding your own elsewhere on his thread. You come out as the winner if I compare the meerkat with you.
You underestimate your own ability. You already live in your own universe. :roll:I am serious gleeber. I want to learn how to create a Universe and then to maybe even do it.
weezer 316
05-Mar-11, 23:44
Symmetry,
Spare me your nonsense. Answer my questions. you have avoided them....again!. And I have learned that people who believe in religion are even more devious than I had believed. Answer the questions I put accross. Dont ignore them. Page 7 or 8 if I rememebrr right. Same for you Saveman.
This might be a nice time to introduce the Bible's comments on the existence of God.
Romans 1:20 (NIV):
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
I tend to agree with this. I find it hard to understand how someone cannot see evidence of a Creator within creation.
Cat, pigeons, among etc. etc. :)
There are many proofs of God. Like how come the best thing to wash your car with, turns out to be a sheepskin? :confused
The Music Monster
06-Mar-11, 01:40
Holes abound. Ill point out just a few and ask you to counter them;
George Lemaitre was indeed the father of the big bang theory, and he was a priest to boot. It was, and still is, one of the greatest pieces of science of all time.
Now, to your points. First of all, and you can attach anyone who belives morals come from the bible to this also, how, and based on what 'biblical' measure, does a passage in the bible be treated as literal or as symbiolic?
I put to you that you claim things like deuteronomy are symbolic simply because the law of the land and the current culture you live in says that the actions that take place in such books are horrendous crimes and you would be a social outcast if you publicly supported things like gang rape of female guests at inns in order to spare a man from a baying mob!
Secondly, revisions are not revisions in the sense that we know today. Has the church declared that the earth is 4.5 billion years old in the face of overwhelmingly evidence that it is that age and that modern day humans have been around for only around 200 000 years? No it has not. All that has taken place is a reinterpretation of the same old words nd not a revision with new evidence as takes place constantly with science.
And thirdly, you are dismissing all other religions. You cannot be both monotheistic and polytheistic, or belive 2 stories of creation. So tell me, was the world created in 7 days or was the world dreamed into existence as the aborigines believe? And how to you decide which to beleive?
Im summary, you are picking and choosing what to believe from the bible and this changes all the time as science advances.
Please do reply
The answer to your first question is quite simple... The Hebrew Bible is built up of different types of literature. You have the histories such as Kings and Chronicles, the Prophets such as Isaiah and Micah, Narratives such as Genesis, Law such as Numbers and Deuteronomy and poetry such as the Song of Solomon and of course the Psalms. There is an additional style called Wisdom Writing that overlaps with much of the others that first foremost addresses the moral code given by God. Narratives are just that, a story that runs alongside an account. Here you have an account of creation and a story to put it into the understandable terms of humans. When Genesis was written there were fewer understandings about what had come before mankind and so a story was created to run alongside the act of creation. I don't think that Deuteronomy is symbolic at all. I agree with you that it is a representation of a culture at the time of writing, and there will always, sadly, be laws both religious and secular that people will adapt to their own means. I think I have just about answered your first question, but if you still think the holes are bounding feel free to fire more questions.
The meaning of the word Gospel is Good News, and to my knowledge it has never academically in the field of theology been questioned as having a definition otherwise.
I am a little befuddled by your second question... You see, all the churches I have ever attended, which has been a fair number over the years, have never tried to teach that the world is only 200,000 years old but then again I think they assumed that people would appreciate that no one really knows how old the world is, nor how much longer it will last. I am also confused where you found this number in Biblical texts, and would readily look at such an argument if it is indeed valid. I haven't read the whole Bible but the bits I've read have never led me to believe Christians and Jews think the world is 200,000 years old.
In answer to your third point, I think you should go back and read more carefully what I put. There are elements of truth in all religions, and as I said earlier on this board it is not polytheistic to use the Hindu belief of avatars for God, it is human nature to put labels on God and so God will have different faces in much the same way as people have different fronts for different people/jobs. How can I tell you how the world was created - I wasn't their to see it, but since you seem determined for my personal belief then you can have it... I believe in the Big Bang theory, I believe that the world was created by the the reaction of particles and chemicals and that the world evolved from there, but yes I do believe in a God that set this in motion, and I do believe that the account in Genesis is an exact order of creation but that instead of days between events, millennia passed by. I don't claim to be an expert on the beliefs of Aboriginals, but aren't they still waiting for reality which they believe comes when they die and that raises the question of an afterlife which is a whole different kettle of fish?
My comment that questioned the value of regarding the existence of things outside our knowledge was in answer to your request:
And dont even think about playing the god has made stuff that is beyond us card.
Still holey? Write back... As I'm sure I said before: there is nothing I love more than a theological debate.
Ah - I have it - sorry I got confused; "Jesus believed in the Garden of Eden, and taught that Adam and Eve were two literal people that existed in history. Paul the Apostle also believed in the Garden of Eden"
Can anyone tell me where this comes from in the bible please?
Seems I have been 'dismissed' by you, But....It was from the Old Testament. Seems that Geo confirms that. Genesis to be exact!
but yes I do believe in a God that set this in motion, and I do believe that the account in Genesis is an exact order of creation but that instead of days between events, millennia passed by. I don't claim to be an expert on the beliefs of Aboriginals, but aren't they still waiting for reality which they believe comes when they die and that raises the question of an afterlife which is a whole different kettle of fish?
My comment that questioned the value of regarding the existence of things outside our knowledge was in answer to your request:
And dont even think about playing the god has made stuff that is beyond us card.
Still holey? Write back... As I'm sure I said before: there is nothing I love more than a theological debate.[/QUOTE]
What say you on Stephen Hawking changing his mind? And we had another well know person in North America Sir John Templeton, who in latter years stated that if Genesis was to be taken literally & histroically, the elolution of millions of years cannot be true...........
John Little
06-Mar-11, 10:22
Seems I have been 'dismissed' by you, But....It was from the Old Testament. Seems that Geo confirms that. Genesis to be exact!
Assumptions again.
Actually I was babysitting.
Jesus did not live in Old Testament Times. Something that is written perhaps hundreds of years before his lifetime cannot tell us what a man believed during his own lifetime.
This is called anachronism.
The Music Monster
06-Mar-11, 12:07
What say you on Stephen Hawking changing his mind? And we had another well know person in North America Sir John Templeton, who in latter years stated that if Genesis was to be taken literally & histroically, the elolution of millions of years cannot be true...........
I would say that these two people are individuals and as such are entitled to their own point of view... If you follow a religion created by these people you may chose to change your belief to match their new one, but as most of the Christians on the planet do not follow Stephen Hawking as a religious leader or even know who Sir John Templeton was, this is not a valid argument to dismiss the narrative of creation writings.
On a lighter note, RunRig wrote a fantastic song about Stephen Hawking's disbelief in God - before he converted and converted again! - it's a pretty good song and well worth a listen if you haven't heard it already. It's called The Apple Came Down.
Greenland
06-Mar-11, 13:02
I'm not a Christian or buddist and I haven't studied science or theology but I believe that God is a divine energy of universal love and God exists in my experience if you want to open up your heart and your mind. Why are people arguing and trying to prove theories or picking holes in others faith? If you do want to find out who is God then try and have some faith that you may not know everything and see what happens. Godand angels exist within an energy of love and will be found there. Losing someone we love and seeing horrible things happen is awful but loss is part of our life and acceptance of that suffering does help in my experience. Buddism is a very interesting philosophy and teaches alot about suffering. I don't know any more than anyone else but I have experienced Gods love and do so each day.:D
I would say that these two people are individuals and as such are entitled to their own point of view... If you follow a religion created by these people you may chose to change your belief to match their new one, but as most of the Christians on the planet do not follow Stephen Hawking as a religious leader or even know who Sir John Templeton was, this is not a valid argument to dismiss the narrative of creation writings.
On a lighter note, RunRig wrote a fantastic song about Stephen Hawking's disbelief in God - before he converted and converted again! - it's a pretty good song and well worth a listen if you haven't heard it already. It's called The Apple Came Down.
Gosh I thought people knew of Hawking and Templeton aka The Smart and the Rich!
Neither are Religious Leaders but perhaps Visionary could be their 'handle'!
A strange thread!
Assumptions again.
Actually I was babysitting.
Jesus did not live in Old Testament Times. Something that is written perhaps hundreds of years before his lifetime cannot tell us what a man believed during his own lifetime.
This is called anachronism.
Yes, I doth know about 'an error in time'...........
But be advised that perhaps the statement was not from the New Testament but the olde. I am not an academic but have some little knowledge. Tks for reply.
John Little
06-Mar-11, 15:35
Yes, I doth know about 'an error in time'...........
But be advised that perhaps the statement was not from the New Testament but the olde. I am not an academic but have some little knowledge. Tks for reply.
I am aware of where the statement came from. Jesus is not in the Old Testament. There is also nothing in the New Testament that proves he believed literally in the story of Adam and Eve.
You cannot use the Old Testament to prove what someone believed in the time of the New Testament because the Old predates the New.
That is my point.
Much of what people who call themselves Christians say is inference which suits their own interpretation.
But in the words of Maimonides you either believe in God or you do not.
The rest is commentary.
But couldn't Jesus have been taking about the past, which had passed?
Of course we all believe differently and interpretation is so personal.......
I have reservations about believing or not believing...is there a middle line....like.. There is something there, but I don't know what it is...
That's a little like George W Bush saying, you are either with us or against us.
I see he was around in the 12th century...Interesting reading is Ken Follett's Pillars of the Earth etc!
John Little
06-Mar-11, 19:23
"But couldn't Jesus have been taking about the past, which had passed?"
Maybe.
And maybe not.
Commentary.
weezer 316
06-Mar-11, 21:43
I'm not a Christian or buddist and I haven't studied science or theology but I believe that God is a divine energy of universal love and God exists in my experience if you want to open up your heart and your mind. Why are people arguing and trying to prove theories or picking holes in others faith? If you do want to find out who is God then try and have some faith that you may not know everything and see what happens. Godand angels exist within an energy of love and will be found there. Losing someone we love and seeing horrible things happen is awful but loss is part of our life and acceptance of that suffering does help in my experience. Buddism is a very interesting philosophy and teaches alot about suffering. I don't know any more than anyone else but I have experienced Gods love and do so each day.:D
God has nothing to do with love! Belief in god and adherence to the god of the Abramhic religions means you will be sexist, homophobic, willing to kill adherants of other religions and most of all willing to believe, blindly, that the stories laid down in their respective scriptures are fact, without a single jot of evidence. You wouldn't blindly accept anything else without evidence so why religion?
weezer 316
06-Mar-11, 22:02
The answer to your first question is quite simple... The Hebrew Bible is built up of different types of literature. You have the histories such as Kings and Chronicles, the Prophets such as Isaiah and Micah, Narratives such as Genesis, Law such as Numbers and Deuteronomy and poetry such as the Song of Solomon and of course the Psalms. There is an additional style called Wisdom Writing that overlaps with much of the others that first foremost addresses the moral code given by God. Narratives are just that, a story that runs alongside an account. Here you have an account of creation and a story to put it into the understandable terms of humans. When Genesis was written there were fewer understandings about what had come before mankind and so a story was created to run alongside the act of creation. I don't think that Deuteronomy is symbolic at all. I agree with you that it is a representation of a culture at the time of writing, and there will always, sadly, be laws both religious and secular that people will adapt to their own means. I think I have just about answered your first question, but if you still think the holes are bounding feel free to fire more questions.
The meaning of the word Gospel is Good News, and to my knowledge it has never academically in the field of theology been questioned as having a definition otherwise.
I am a little befuddled by your second question... You see, all the churches I have ever attended, which has been a fair number over the years, have never tried to teach that the world is only 200,000 years old but then again I think they assumed that people would appreciate that no one really knows how old the world is, nor how much longer it will last. I am also confused where you found this number in Biblical texts, and would readily look at such an argument if it is indeed valid. I haven't read the whole Bible but the bits I've read have never led me to believe Christians and Jews think the world is 200,000 years old.
In answer to your third point, I think you should go back and read more carefully what I put. There are elements of truth in all religions, and as I said earlier on this board it is not polytheistic to use the Hindu belief of avatars for God, it is human nature to put labels on God and so God will have different faces in much the same way as people have different fronts for different people/jobs. How can I tell you how the world was created - I wasn't their to see it, but since you seem determined for my personal belief then you can have it... I believe in the Big Bang theory, I believe that the world was created by the the reaction of particles and chemicals and that the world evolved from there, but yes I do believe in a God that set this in motion, and I do believe that the account in Genesis is an exact order of creation but that instead of days between events, millennia passed by. I don't claim to be an expert on the beliefs of Aboriginals, but aren't they still waiting for reality which they believe comes when they die and that raises the question of an afterlife which is a whole different kettle of fish?
My comment that questioned the value of regarding the existence of things outside our knowledge was in answer to your request:
And dont even think about playing the god has made stuff that is beyond us card.
Still holey? Write back... As I'm sure I said before: there is nothing I love more than a theological debate.
Reply I shall....
Firstly, I said modern humans appeared 200 000 years ago, not the earth. Some churches have said the earth is 10 000 years old (young earth creationists) whilst the the vatican doesnt have an official position on it. Not surprising, seeing as religion can bring nothing to either cosmology or geology. However, the point is that the church, depite overwhelming evidence of the age of the earth being 4.5 billion years old, have never endorsed it. Ill give you a guess why before I state why.
Secondly, ill state again, there is nothing to say that a passage should be seen as symbolic within the bible. It is written almost entirely as a matter of fact. Poeple who back the bible say this and that was symbolic, when really it was treated as fact until recently (genesis for one). You yourself say there was millenia between the events in geneses, which totally contradicts the day by day narritive! And why do you believe there was millenia between the events? You cant just say that with no evidence to back it up.
I say, in summary, god is a lazy answer and is a shrug of the shoulders, a "I dont know" and relies on ignorance to spread. Didnt St Augustine actually say that curiosity was dangerous? very dangerous for religion indeed.
weezer 316
06-Mar-11, 22:26
This is a very long thread. Ill summarise my questions and ask for an answer:
1: Why would you believe something without evidence, when you would not in day to day life? You would accept you car that you recently paid 10k for was worth £100 today juts because a autotrader said so. Why do you accept the bible/koran/a.n other text as fact.
2: What is the fate of un-evangelized? What of the people who lived before jesus christ/mohammed? Are the condemned to Hell? If so, why?
3: How is a scripture decided to be either literal or symbolic? Clearly written as literal accounts. with no indicator of whether they are symbolic of not. I say they are called as such to suit the zeitgeist of the time and will continue to do so. if thats the case, then clearly they the religious adherants are undermining their own book.
4: Why do religious people believe morals come form biblical texts? God would appear to have contradicted himself by allowing homosexiality in wild life (silver back gorrilas being a good example, bonobo's another) How is this explained by the religious minded?
5: How, without knowledge of all other religions, can you "believe" your one to be right? Almost all religions call themsleves the one true faith. They clearly cannot all be right.
6: How do you account for the obvious problems of where the bible has been shown to be totally inaccurate by science? For example, gallileo being tried for heresy for proving heliocentrism?
Whilst I'm quite enjoying this thread, it isn't achieving anything. weezer, are you expecting the true believers to say; "Oh well, it is a fair cop, it was nice while it lasted"?
weezer 316
06-Mar-11, 22:54
Not really expecting anything to be honest. Maybe a devout christain to look at the bible objectively would be a brucey bonus.
I'll attempt to give you some answers
This is a very long thread. Ill summarise my questions and ask for an answer:
1: Why would you believe something without evidence, when you would not in day to day life? You would accept you car that you recently paid 10k for was worth £100 today juts because a autotrader said so. Why do you accept the bible/koran/a.n other text as fact.
A visit to the British Museum was eye opening in it's tangle evidence for the Bible's historical accuracy. Also I've looked at the scientific "evidence" for the origin of life. It requires a LOT of faith to believe it!
2: What is the fate of un-evangelized? What of the people who lived before jesus christ/mohammed? Are the condemned to Hell? If so, why?
The "unrighteous" being condemned to a burning hell is not a Bible teaching. In actual fact the Bible teaches that there is to be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. Acts 24:15
3: How is a scripture decided to be either literal or symbolic? Clearly written as literal accounts. with no indicator of whether they are symbolic of not. I say they are called as such to suit the zeitgeist of the time and will continue to do so. if thats the case, then clearly they the religious adherants are undermining their own book.
The context of the scripture is usually very helpful in this regard. Have you got a specific scripture in mind that you're not sure about?
4: Why do religious people believe morals come form biblical texts? God would appear to have contradicted himself by allowing homosexiality in wild life (silver back gorrilas being a good example, bonobo's another) How is this explained by the religious minded?
Gen 1:25,26 Man was created very differently from animals. Even humans expect different standards of behaviour from humans than from animals, so why not the Creator?
5: How, without knowledge of all other religions, can you "believe" your one to be right? Almost all religions call themsleves the one true faith. They clearly cannot all be right.
No they cannot all be right. Genuine heartfelt prayer and a diligent search for truth and God will make sure that you find the true religion. John 6:44
6: How do you account for the obvious problems of where the bible has been shown to be totally inaccurate by science? For example, gallileo being tried for heresy for proving heliocentrism?
Not sure how this example relates to any particular scripture?
Perhaps you can provide specific scriptures that are contradicted by science?
secrets in symmetry
07-Mar-11, 00:02
Let's get back to the original question asked.
I want to create my own Universe. I don't want to be theone, I want to be theone after that. There seem to be a lot of experts in this thread, surely some of you can tell me how I can do it.
Many of us saw religion as harmless nonsense. Beliefs might lack all supporting evidence but, we thought, if people needed a crutch for consolation, where's the harm? September 11th changed all that.
weezer 316
07-Mar-11, 00:10
Saveman,
Selective reading, and not alot of evidence.
1: Fossilisation records, covering millions of species, dated over the last 3 billion year via methods such as carbon dating. This, in line with the location of finds, such as the earlies humans being found in east africa, are quite clear. Clearly, a humoid species identical to us appeared there 200 000 years ago, and migrated, again backed up with bones found in the ground. Modern genetics then goes to show that everyone outside if Africa is quite closely related. Please explain what about that requires faith?
2: 2 Peter 2:4 and Revelation 19:20 certianly do talk of burning hell for sinners.
3: John 6;44 actually says "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day". I Double checked here (http://www.biblegateway.com) for clairity in case my bible was somehow wrong.
4: God created the earth in genesis. You yourself said you believe in the big bang fine tuned by god, in contradiction to what the bible says. Science has show that the earth formed from a massive swirl of gas and dust that formed our sun and all the other bodies in the solar system, gravity being the force responsible, not god. This would clearly contradict genesis and be based on observation, as opposed to a tale in a book written by someone who, bare in mind, had been exposed to about the same amount of information through their entire lifetime as an 8yo with an internet connection today. Has the bible been revised with this new data?
September 11th changed all that.
Yes maybe, but for the wrong reasons.
The religion of the terrorists should have been irrelevant.
Their crime was terrorism, not being Muslim. I often wonder how much their religion actually had influence on them.
The Arabic and Eastern countries have had gripes with the West for years. There's many reasons, religion isn't a big one.
I don't think their was nearly as much anti-Catholic sentiment in the country when the IRA were having their bombing campaigns as there is anti-Mslim feeling now.
secrets in symmetry
07-Mar-11, 00:23
4: God created the earth in genesis. You yourself said you believe in the big bang fine tuned by god, in contradiction to what the bible says. Science has show that the earth formed from a massive swirl of gas and dust that formed our sun and all the other bodies in the solar system, gravity being the force responsible, not god. This would clearly contradict genesis and be based on observation, as opposed to a tale in a book written by someone who, bare in mind, had been exposed to about the same amount of information through their entire lifetime as an 8yo with an internet connection today. Has the bible been revised with this new data?If you know how God created the Earth, can you tell me how I can create my own Universe? I have a false vacuum in the cupboard under the stairs, but do I need my own inflaton, and, if so, do you know where I can get one? Do Tesco sell them?
My relationship with God is somewhat confused. Sometimes I believe in Him, sometimes I don't. There has been times where I have needed the reassurance one gets from the faith that you aren't alone, when I needed to be able to close my eyes and pray and hope that God hears me. And Myet I cannot accept the bible as truth nor the teachings of some churches on homosexuality, sex before marriage and the idea that on the dAy of judgement, one would be taken and one left.
And yet there have been times when I had no doubts
weezer 316
07-Mar-11, 09:05
If you know how God created the Earth, can you tell me how I can create my own Universe? I have a false vacuum in the cupboard under the stairs, but do I need my own inflaton, and, if so, do you know where I can get one? Do Tesco sell them?
Firstly, No I cant. We dont know what banged, why it banged, what happened before it banged or even what caused it to bang. This is an area of active research. I think the gravitation detectors currently being built by nasa for use over the next decade should allow us at least a small window into which to peer into these mysteries.
Perhaps you could ask god, who I am sure started the whole process off! Oh wait, where the hell did he come from then!
Saveman,
Selective reading, and not alot of evidence.
1: Fossilisation records, covering millions of species, dated over the last 3 billion year via methods such as carbon dating. This, in line with the location of finds, such as the earlies humans being found in east africa, are quite clear. Clearly, a humoid species identical to us appeared there 200 000 years ago, and migrated, again backed up with bones found in the ground. Modern genetics then goes to show that everyone outside if Africa is quite closely related. Please explain what about that requires faith?
That it all happened by chance. That requires faith.
2: 2 Peter 2:4 and Revelation 19:20 certianly do talk of burning hell for sinners.
2 Peter 2:4 - Tartarus - pits of dense darkness - A prison-like condition of spiritual darkness.
Rev 19:20 - a fiery lake that burns with sulphur - indicating complete and utter destruction.
Where does it say all sinners will burn in hell for eternity??
3: John 6;44 actually says "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day". I Double checked here (http://www.biblegateway.com) for clairity in case my bible was somehow wrong.
So the scripture says in effect no one can come to Jesus unless his father, God, draws him. So God would draw people to his son that he himself would choose. Perhaps another scripture used in harmony with this would help.....Matt 7:7-11
4: God created the earth in genesis. You yourself said you believe in the big bang fine tuned by god, in contradiction to what the bible says. Science has show that the earth formed from a massive swirl of gas and dust that formed our sun and all the other bodies in the solar system, gravity being the force responsible, not god. This would clearly contradict genesis and be based on observation, as opposed to a tale in a book written by someone who, bare in mind, had been exposed to about the same amount of information through their entire lifetime as an 8yo with an internet connection today. Has the bible been revised with this new data?
The law of gravity has to have a lawgiver. I don't see how any of this contradicts the statement in Gen 1:1 -"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Jer 33:25 - God says himself that he set up the physical laws of the universe.
Your pointing to a process and saying the process itself is the cause. The process is the effect, the Creator is the cause.
Your pointing to a process and saying the process itself is the cause. The process is the effect, the Creator is the cause.
If that's the case then who created God or do you insist on different standards for Him? :roll:
If that's the case then who created God or do you insist on different standards for Him? :roll:
I don't insist on different standards for Him. Almighty God by definition is not part of creation but the Creator. Ps 90:2 - "Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the whole world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God." He has always existed and will always exist. He is the First Cause, the origin of life.
Well there's a transparent brick wall if ever I saw one. Amen
weezer 316
07-Mar-11, 11:45
That it all happened by chance. That requires faith.
2 Peter 2:4 - Tartarus - pits of dense darkness - A prison-like condition of spiritual darkness.
Rev 19:20 - a fiery lake that burns with sulphur - indicating complete and utter destruction.
Where does it say all sinners will burn in hell for eternity??
So the scripture says in effect no one can come to Jesus unless his father, God, draws him. So God would draw people to his son that he himself would choose. Perhaps another scripture used in harmony with this would help.....Matt 7:7-11
The law of gravity has to have a lawgiver. I don't see how any of this contradicts the statement in Gen 1:1 -"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Jer 33:25 - God says himself that he set up the physical laws of the universe.
Your pointing to a process and saying the process itself is the cause. The process is the effect, the Creator is the cause.
That, in short, is the crux of the religious argument! And what a poor argument it is.
How on earth does the first point require faith?? These bones have been found, dated and proven to be this age. thier location is obviously where they were when they died. What faith is required? Please explain!
And your last point is absurd. "The law of gravity has to have a lawgiver" is probably the most ludicrous thing in this thread. What evidence is this based on?? None! Bar a 2000 year old book! Ludicrous!
Think, critically, and most of all, dont ever assume there has to be a god because you, or me, are unsure how these forces came to be. The lack of a scinetific explanation (with much work being done) for how the universe ended up with the basic forces that govern it is not proof of a god. Surely, surely you can see this!?!
i think god might be an alien life form who found our planet and decided to create an experiment. we are all part of an aliens computer game.
:) Keep knocking and it will be opened to you..... ;)
weezer 316
07-Mar-11, 11:54
i think god might be an alien life form who found our planet and decided to create an experiment. we are all part of an aliens computer game.
Definately more possible than a god in the religious sense
weezer 316
07-Mar-11, 11:58
Answer the questions in my previosu post gleeber
That, in short, is the crux of the religious argument! And what a poor argument it is.
How on earth does the first point require faith?? These bones have been found, dated and proven to be this age. thier location is obviously where they were when they died. What faith is required? Please explain!
I'm not arguing about the bones or the dating of the bones. etc. etc. What requires faith is that life formed spontaneously from an organic soup. That random chance has produced complex life forms. That requires faith.
And your last point is absurd. "The law of gravity has to have a lawgiver" is probably the most ludicrous thing in this thread. What evidence is this based on?? None! Bar a 2000 year old book! Ludicrous!
The fine tuning of gravity and the other physical forces are undisputed. It's like the old example of coming across 10 x pound coins scattered across the pavement. You'd assume someone had dropped them. But if you came across 10 x pound coins carefully stacked up in the middle of the pavement you'd know that someone placed them that way.
Think, critically, and most of all, dont ever assume there has to be a god because you, or me, are unsure how these forces came to be. The lack of a scinetific explanation (with much work being done) for how the universe ended up with the basic forces that govern it is not proof of a god. Surely, surely you can see this!?!
I don't assume there is a God. My faith in the existence of a Creator is based on a careful study of the subject. I'm no scientist, nor am I an intellectual of any sort. But as I've said before something cannot come from nothing, and we've got a whole lot of something!
:cool:
Answer the questions in my previosu post gleeber
Pay attention Weezer. I'm on your side.
weezer 316
07-Mar-11, 12:19
Saveman,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller%E2%80%93Urey_experiment
Critical experiment. Life formed from an organic soup alright. Funnily, and showing no knowledge of the subject, it had nothing to do with random chance. It was actually bound to happen as the conditions all existed on earth to allow the forming of amino acids, the building blocks of proteins. This didnt produce complex lifeforms, it produced very very simple lifeforms, who EVOLVED! The above experiment shows this.
Tell me, how, beliveing in the big band as you do, do you think life formed? Think god exploded the universe into existence, set the conditions, that allowed a habitable planet to form here, then decided to put life on it himself? Or rather let the earth raise it itself? bear in mind if its the first your are contradicting the bible
Your last point again is very very weak. Saying we got something from nothing is ludicrous. We clearly got this universe from something, forces beyond our understanding at present. This, in no way, is proof of god. its proof we dont understand what casued the universe to come into existance, nothing more and certianly not a god.
weezer 316
07-Mar-11, 12:23
Wrong person gleeber. Sorry
Yes maybe, but for the wrong reasons.
The religion of the terrorists should have been irrelevant.
Their crime was terrorism, not being Muslim. I often wonder how much their religion actually had influence on them.
The Arabic and Eastern countries have had gripes with the West for years. There's many reasons, religion isn't a big one.
I don't think their was nearly as much anti-Catholic sentiment in the country when the IRA were having their bombing campaigns as there is anti-Mslim feeling now.
al-Qa'ida, is a militant Radical Islamist group. . their purpose is to destroy all who will not convert to radical Islam. Of course they are a miniscule percentage of the c1.6 billion people who of the Muslim faith.
It is a fact that I've had a friend staying who was a fundamentalist Muslim, banned from the USA.. So maybe have a wee bit of insight into how he thought..
As with the Irish 'Troubles' a small minority were involved in bombings and killings, it was a Loyalist vs. Republican thing -religion played a very small part..
The shout of "Allāhu Akbar" was screamed on those various aircraft, I've no such recollection of an individual in Ireland shouting "is maith dia" as they destroyed themselves..
TBH, I haven't bothered myself to read all the posts on this thread; but I'd love to say (awaiting the massive back-lash: which I won't be responding to BTW !!)
Christ is My Redeemer and I am happy to be comforted by Him in all that I do and all that I am......
Very well said Cherokee I couldn't agree more.
Saveman,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller%E2%80%93Urey_experiment
Critical experiment. Life formed from an organic soup alright. Funnily, and showing no knowledge of the subject, it had nothing to do with random chance. It was actually bound to happen as the conditions all existed on earth to allow the forming of amino acids, the building blocks of proteins. This didnt produce complex lifeforms, it produced very very simple lifeforms, who EVOLVED! The above experiment shows this.
The Miller-Urey experiment produced amino acids. For life the amino acids have to form together in a very specific way to form proteins. No proteins were formed in this experiment, never mind basic life.
Tell me, how, beliveing in the big band as you do, do you think life formed? Think god exploded the universe into existence, set the conditions, that allowed a habitable planet to form here, then decided to put life on it himself? Or rather let the earth raise it itself? bear in mind if its the first your are contradicting the bible
I believe God created the heavens, the earth and all life. Not sure how that contradicts the Bible?
Your last point again is very very weak. Saying we got something from nothing is ludicrous. We clearly got this universe from something, forces beyond our understanding at present. This, in no way, is proof of god. its proof we dont understand what casued the universe to come into existance, nothing more and certianly not a god.
Why certainly not a God? If something looks like it may have been designed, why would you forcefully conclude that they definitely is no designer?
:) Keep knocking and it will be opened to you..... ;)
I thought there was only room for 144,000 people?
Saveman
The fine tuning of gravity and the other physical forces are undisputed. It's like the old example of coming across 10 x pound coins scattered across the pavement. You'd assume someone had dropped them. But if you came across 10 x pound coins carefully stacked up in the middle of the pavement you'd know that someone placed them that way.
Do it for a million years and it would happen naturally..
Saveman
The fine tuning of gravity and the other physical forces are undisputed. It's like the old example of coming across 10 x pound coins scattered across the pavement. You'd assume someone had dropped them. But if you came across 10 x pound coins carefully stacked up in the middle of the pavement you'd know that someone placed them that way.
Do it for a million years and it would happen naturally..
Ok. In this experiment who does the person who drops the coins for a million years represent?
The Music Monster
07-Mar-11, 13:44
I thought there was only room for 144,000 people?
Ah! I'm starting to see where some of these numbers are coming from... That is Jehovah's Witnesses belief... You were starting to lose me with where you got some of these ideas from, but now I realise! To the best of my knowledge, Jehovah's Witnesses do not class themselves as Christians, nor their Kingdom Hall as a Church.
weezer 316
07-Mar-11, 14:22
The Miller-Urey experiment produced amino acids. For life the amino acids have to form together in a very specific way to form proteins. No proteins were formed in this experiment, never mind basic life.
I believe God created the heavens, the earth and all life. Not sure how that contradicts the Bible?
Why certainly not a God? If something looks like it may have been designed, why would you forcefully conclude that they definitely is no designer?
None where formed. however, it shwoed the building blocks of like can be formed by a chemical reaction. Im sure you would agree that it doesnt take a great deal of FAITH to think one day soon there will be a chemical realtion discovered to create proteins. The result will be rudimentary life
Secondly, Life may indeed give the illusion of benig designed. Standing on the earth at night gives the illusion that the heavens are moving aroud the earth. This is clearly false.
And that leads me to the original point. There is no evidence of god, and the illusion of design,which I agree is present, is not eveidence of a god. And thats a fact. Evolution explains clearly, through natural selection, how prey and predators seem to be designed to either cath or evade, and how habitats are perfectly suited to each creature. Again, this isnt evidence of a god or designer.
None where formed. however, it shwoed the building blocks of like can be formed by a chemical reaction. Im sure you would agree that it doesnt take a great deal of FAITH to think one day soon there will be a chemical realtion discovered to create proteins. The result will be rudimentary life
Secondly, Life may indeed give the illusion of benig designed. Standing on the earth at night gives the illusion that the heavens are moving aroud the earth. This is clearly false.
And that leads me to the original point. There is no evidence of god, and the illusion of design,which I agree is present, is not eveidence of a god. And thats a fact. Evolution explains clearly, through natural selection, how prey and predators seem to be designed to either cath or evade, and how habitats are perfectly suited to each creature. Again, this isnt evidence of a god or designer.
I disagree. I don't think it's an illusion of design. I wear a wrist watch. I've never met the person who built my wrist watch. I've never met the person who designed it. But I know it was designed and built by somebody. The physical universe, nature, life....vastly more complex than a wrist watch......but it came about by chance? The evidence for design is overwhelming.
Greenland
07-Mar-11, 14:32
God has nothing to do with love! Belief in god and adherence to the god of the Abramhic religions means you will be sexist, homophobic, willing to kill adherants of other religions and most of all willing to believe, blindly, that the stories laid down in their respective scriptures are fact, without a single jot of evidence. You wouldn't blindly accept anything else without evidence so why religion?
I do not believe in organised religion I believe in God who is love and who exists beyond man's narrow idea's of what God is. Open your mind and do not tell me God is not love.
weezer 316
07-Mar-11, 14:41
I disagree. I don't think it's an illusion of design. I wear a wrist watch. I've never met the person who built my wrist watch. I've never met the person who designed it. But I know it was designed and built by somebody. The physical universe, nature, life....vastly more complex than a wrist watch......but it came about by chance? The evidence for design is overwhelming.
No it isnt!! Thats the point! You need evidence!
Would you agree that standing on the earth looking at the skies gives the illusion that the heavens rotate around us?? Yet this is wrong. Itsan illusion. Knowledge of science shows that the earth si actually rotating. The same for human beings, the world, the galaxy and universe.
And to say it happened by chance shows just how far your understanding of such matters goes. Graviational forces moulded the universe into the galaxies. stars and planets we see today. Where the hell is the chance in that?????? None! Same for humans. natural selection, not chance! An eyeball didnt just form you know, it evolved.
Astonishing ignorance. Truly astonshing.
And 1 question, your god, who designed him? Or was he a chance occurance?
weezer 316
07-Mar-11, 14:45
I do not believe in organised religion I believe in God who is love and who exists beyond man's narrow idea's of what God is. Open your mind and do not tell me God is not love.
My mind is open. Define why you belive such nonsense? With evidence......
I rest my case
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