View Full Version : School reviews initial suggestions are in
Alice in Blunderland
17-Feb-11, 18:31
SO folks what do you think are the best options :)
http://www.highland.gov.uk/yourcouncil/news/newsreleases/2011/February/2011-02-17-03.htm
Now no nimby ism here honest debate about the merits of each proposal. :eek:
I wouldn't be surprised to see Mt pleasant closed in Thurso. I thought I read somewhere that pennyland was in a worse state of repair though?
I think a single closure is more viable than merging all the schools together in one site at Miller. Just the distances some kids would have to walk would be too far in my opinion.
I wouldn't be surprised to see Mt pleasant closed in Thurso.
Yet, out of the 3 primaries in Thurso, it was the one that had the best HMI report. The other schools had follow-up visits to check that improvements flagged in their reports were being made.
I think the only recommendation for Mt Pleasant was to get the windows fixed - which the council did.
Alice in Blunderland
17-Feb-11, 18:58
I think a single closure is more viable than merging all the schools together in one site at Miller. Just the distances some kids would have to walk would be too far in my opinion.
Would they be eligible for school transport ?
Would they be eligible for school transport ?
No idea!
It's been a while since I was at school!
Alice in Blunderland
17-Feb-11, 19:01
Yet, out of the 3 primaries in Thurso, it was the one that had the best HMI report. The other schools had follow-up visits to check that improvements flagged in their reports were being made.
I think the only recommendation for Mt Pleasant was to get the windows fixed - which the council did.
I thought it was stated at the meeting with Parent Councils that the HMI reports were not going to be a major consideration or maybe I heard wrong.
I thought it was stated at the meeting with Parent Councils that the HMI reports were not going to be a major consideration or maybe I heard wrong.
If that is true then it is shocking. Surely they should be looking at the quality of the education provided by a school?
Alice in Blunderland
17-Feb-11, 19:03
The options for Bower, Castletown and Canisbay appear to me to pitch one community against another to save their small community based school. :~( So unfair.
Yet, out of the 3 primaries in Thurso, it was the one that had the best HMI report. The other schools had follow-up visits to check that improvements flagged in their reports were being made.
I think the only recommendation for Mt Pleasant was to get the windows fixed - which the council did.
Yes, and that's probably valid reason for support against its closure.
But I think, purely in terms of distance, Mt Pleasant must be at a disadvantage.
A trip to Miller for most Mt Pleasant pupils would be a lot shorter than a trip to Miller for many Pennyland ones I would have thought?
Scarybiscuits03
17-Feb-11, 19:37
Doesn't make any sense whatsoever!!
Mount Pleasant is the newest of all the schools. It had the best HMI report. It has the gaelic nursery and is equipped with a special needs department. A number of country pupils also attend this school.
I personally chose this school over the others and travel to get my daughter to school - I would rather home school her than have her attend a school that I am not happy with.
I think it is all a disgrace, where will these cut backs end. How can they even throw in the idea of new schools when they are closing others to save money?
Will they be reinstating poor houses soon, where so the cuts end.
Scarybiscuits03
17-Feb-11, 19:40
Yes, and that's probably valid reason for support against its closure.
But I think, purely in terms of distance, Mt Pleasant must be at a disadvantage.
A trip to Miller for most Mt Pleasant pupils would be a lot shorter than a trip to Miller for many Pennyland ones I would have thought?
How do you figure that one? - Miller is at the bottom of Castlegreen road, more or less, whereas the MP kids would have to travel across the main A9 road in order to get there!!! I think you'd find that the distance is pretty similar.
How do you figure that one? - Miller is at the bottom of Castlegreen road, more or less, whereas the MP kids would have to travel across the main A9 road in order to get there!!! I think you'd find that the distance is pretty similar.
My thought was that Mt Pleasant is attended by a large number of pupils from springpark, which is in walking distance of miller, whereas Pennyland has a large number of pupils from Burnside/East Gills, which I would imagine are a lot further away from Miller.
Maybe the distance is quite similar. I haven't got my ruler handy!
I think it is all a disgrace, where will these cut backs end. How can they even throw in the idea of new schools when they are closing others to save money?
Will they be reinstating poor houses soon, where so the cuts end.
I think in fairness, certainly in terms of the Thurso schools, the dropping pupil numbers would have resulted in closures eventually.
I don't doubt that cost and the current public spending cuts have been the catalyst though.
Scarybiscuits03
17-Feb-11, 19:55
What about the pupils from Murkle? They attend Mount Pleasant and some from Dunnet, Castletown and the surrounding areas. Also there is a new estate in the process of being built on the MP side, all of which are mostly young families that would be sending their kids to Mount Pleasant - More houses more pupils!
Also I've just been informed that my child doesn't want to go to Miller as they have a ghost????!!! lol
What about the pupils from Murkle? They attend Mount Pleasant and some from Dunnet, Castletown and the surrounding areas. Also there is a new estate in the process of being built on the MP side, all of which are mostly young families that would be sending their kids to Mount Pleasant - More houses more pupils!
Yes, I realise that, but all these pupils from Murkle and beyond aren't walking to school now, whereas those from Burnside are.
Also I've just been informed that my child doesn't want to go to Miller as they have a ghost????!!! lol
That's true!
If inspection reports are so useless as not to count in the councils view, why don't we get rid of these departments whose opinion obviously is not actually important at all, i am sure that would be a good place to start saving.
If inspection reports are so useless as not to count in the councils view, why don't we get rid of these departments whose opinion obviously is not actually important at all, i am sure that would be a good place to start saving.
I am surprised that the inspection reports aren't being used in the decision process, and I hope the good teachers and teaching methods are transferred and retained.
I do think this will come down to analysis of catchment areas and numbers though.
of the wick options.. i would like to see a new all singing all dancing school for the wee ones.
i worry about moving ceyac.. as it is very hard at times for autistic children to adjust to a big change.. and that is a huge change!!
obviously .. no one wants their child's school to close.. but at the end of the day, we have to look at what is best for all the children and not just our own child's school.
if there is going to be closures.. and as it really does look like there is without a doubt.. i would like to be able to have my voice heard in how its going to be done.. and knowing all the details..
ie.. class sizes, teaching assistants, additional needs help, transportation, orientation for the kids ...before during and after said transfers.. how they are going to handle the disruption, what is going to
happen with the in-fighting between kids joining together within one school.. especially for the incoming kids.. who may feel as if they are outsiders .. and may be made to feel they are outsiders..
the list goes on and on.. but def. want to be part of the process!
wickscorrie
17-Feb-11, 20:17
rezoning of catchments seems to be a major factor which will probably be implemented
Now I assume the "save pennyland brigade" will be adapting their T shirts / banners and raffle tickets and handing them over to the folk on hungry hill..??
;0)
Claireabelle
17-Feb-11, 20:29
My daughter is due to start nursery after summer, shortly after her third birthday. After a great deal of thought on the matter I recently made the decision to move from West Gills to the Pennyland Estate in time for this as I felt it would be far too much for me to ask her to walk all the way to the school from West Gills and then back again, especially in bad weather. Three year olds only have little legs after all.
I also feel that walking from our new house to either Miller or Mount Pleasant would be too far, and I would not feel comfortable sending her off on a bus alone at such a young age, if one were to be put on. I can not drive, so driving her to school would not be an option.
I suspect that there are lots of people in this situation who rely on their toddlers walking places. I wouldn't like to see any of the schools close. I have friends with children attending each school. I'm very glad that I don't have to make this decision.
rezoning of catchments seems to be a major factor which will be implemented
That was exactly my logic.
Take the existing schools and draw circles around them of various sizes counting how many children are in each.
That, I imagine, is the basis of many of the proposals.
wickscorrie
17-Feb-11, 20:32
if some of the schools are to be amalgamated, then whole new identities should be implemented new school name, new uniform, too remove some of the them and us scenarios
Claireabelle
17-Feb-11, 20:34
if some of the schools are to be amalgamated, then whole new identities should be implemented new school name, new uniform, too remove some of the them and us scenarios
I think that is a very good idea wickscorrie
annemarie482
17-Feb-11, 20:34
as a keisser, i feel we are about to be sucked into a wick north/hillhead school to boost numbers to justify the improvements they want.......[mad][evil]
Scarybiscuits03
17-Feb-11, 20:36
That was exactly my logic.
Take the existing schools and draw circles around them of various sizes counting how many children are in each.
That, I imagine, is the basis of many of the proposals.
That's fair enough but kids from all over go to Mount Pleasant not only kids in the catchment area. There are kids from the Pennyland area and from West Gills as well as the country. These kids are put to MP because their parents chose that particular school over the school in their area - I think that speaks volumes!
That's fair enough but kids from all over go to Mount Pleasant not only kids in the catchment area. There are kids from the Pennyland area and from West Gills as well as the country. These kids are put to MP because their parents chose that particular school over the school in their area - I think that speaks volumes!
I don't doubt you for a second.
And I'm not saying that shutting the "best" school is a good idea.
All I said was that I thought distances would be the driver, or "catchment areas" as wickscorrie more correctly put it.
I also believe you when you say kids from other catchment areas are currently sent to different schools, but I would imagine, at least from the councils point of view, that that is the parents decision and therefore their responsibility to ensure their child can get there.
With any luck the "no change" proposal will be accepted, but to be honest, I don't see it.
Alice in Blunderland
17-Feb-11, 21:29
I
With any luck the "no change" proposal will be accepted, but to be honest, I don't see it.
Sorry but alas no change is not an option for quite a few schools, remember in the paper going before the council meeting next month this year they need to save £278.000 and 6.5 teachers. Next year a further £1.332 million pounds and a further 15 teachers. In total thats £1,610,000 in savings with the loss of a total of 21.5 teachers if my maths is right. Thats the figure given before we have the results of the review ;)
I want to see the report the consultants who were paid £300k to come up with this list of options came to thier decisions. I will be asking why Mount Pleasant was chosen over the other two. i dont want any of the three primaries in Thurso to Close. Both Mount Pleasant and Pennyland currently have @ 250 pupils with Miller at @350. i will be fighting and campaigning very hard over the next few weeks to ensure that Mount Plesant stays open and that this option is not chosen.
Alice in Blunderland
17-Feb-11, 21:51
I want to see the report the consultants who were paid £300k to come up with this list of options came to thier decisions.
The £300k was set aside for the review and that includes the re categorizing of the chosen schools as a result of this proposals. Not all the money is going to the consultant firm. Maybe not much less but def not all ;)
Alice in Blunderland
18-Feb-11, 10:54
sorry folks Im a bit of a dilly at times but I have no idea how I managed to lock the thread........keep on debating which proposals do you feel have merit?
Should the town schools be merged with the prospect of new schools being built or should the country schools be closed transporting the kids elsewhere?
What will happen to the staff ? Will this be an opportunity to reduce the classroom assistants as there will no longer be jobs for them?
Where are the educational benefits from all these proposals ?
Is big beautiful one big all singing and dancing school in Wick and one in Thurso and shut everything else ?
What about the impact on rural villages which already have less facilities to offer than the towns ?
Lots of food for thought in these questions.
lindsaymcc
18-Feb-11, 11:28
Lets just say I wouldnt want to be the one to make the final decisions! Its going to upset a group of parents/children regardless of which option is taken!
Economically, there is no way all schools can continue as they are, this is a given I think.
I just dont understand where the funding for building new schools is going to come from, when the whole point is to cut costs. Ok, so the end result once the new schools are built will save some money than is being spent at the moment, but in the short term it will cost more.
My children go to Miller and 3 Bears Nursery. Of course I dont want their school/nursery to close, especially as we only moved here last April and so they have only just really settled into the school. However, parents from all the other schools will feel the same.
I can see all this turning people of the community against each other, rather than pull us all together to work for the best outcome for all. This was evident with the Pennyland Campaign.
I think Brandy makes the best points with regards to needing to know the answers to questions such as class sizes, settlement visits etc etc for those that will be affected, and also the posted who recommended whole new school logos/uniforms etc to bring the schools merging together as 1 new school rather than a "them" and "us" mentality.
ShelleyCowie
18-Feb-11, 12:34
My 2 step sons go to Pennyland, Athrun is going to the Nursery after Christmas this year. I love that school, i went to Miller Academy myself as a child and it was great too!
When my step sons arent with us, they are with their mum who doesnt live directly in town. So the thought of them walking to Miller, is a bit off putting! Its quite a trek from where they live to Miller, i really cant imagine them walking that in the Winter!
The teachers and nursery teachers at Pennyland are excellent! Iv always gotten on with them all.
Whatever decision is made i really hope they take into consideration that costs could be greater if 1 school is even closed, never mind all 3 brought into 1! As Brandy said, school uniforms will need to be changed. This is also more money for parents to put out buying new jumpers/hoodies/jackets.
If 1 school closes, how many pupils will that be to a class? I know that my 7 year old SS is in a rather large class. Nursery applications for Pennyland for this year have been very high. Are all these kids going to get places elsewhere if the school is closed?
igglepiggle
18-Feb-11, 16:51
I want to see the report the consultants who were paid £300k to come up with this list of options came to thier decisions. I will be asking why Mount Pleasant was chosen over the other two. i dont want any of the three primaries in Thurso to Close. Both Mount Pleasant and Pennyland currently have @ 250 pupils with Miller at @350. i will be fighting and campaigning very hard over the next few weeks to ensure that Mount Plesant stays open and that this option is not chosen.
I would also like to see why this school has been choson over the other two. It doesnt make sense for half off the town to be cut off? Kids having to walk over main roads to get to Miller would be a no go for my children. And if/when Tescos open this will be more traffic around Miller! If they want to pick a school out of a hat why dont they pick Miller, divide the area into two, Some of the centre and the East side go to Mount Pleasant and then other half of the centre and west go to Pennyland? Saying this there then has to be costs on adapting exisitng schools if one is closed or building a new school to accommodate all pupils, when would this cost be recovered? I dont see why it has to be the kids that suffer all the time!
lindsaymcc
18-Feb-11, 17:29
I think the concern with closing miller is that it is the oldest school in the town, and has the most "space" available for extending/upgrading.
Also there is Rainbow Rascals, 3 Bears Nursery and Treats after school care situated on Millers site which would all have to move if they closed the school, however I see the logic in closing the centre school and splitting them in half..... but realistically dont think it will ever happen.
Option 1 keep all the schools!!!!
Would they be eligible for school transport ?
Nope got to be 5 miles out for school bus.
annemarie482
18-Feb-11, 19:03
Nope got to be 5 miles out for school bus.
5 miles? as far as im aware it's 3 in keiss.......
Duncansby
18-Feb-11, 19:16
I thought it was 3 miles too, or at least it certainly was when I was at primary school in the 1980s
Alice in Blunderland
18-Feb-11, 23:25
School Transport
The basic policy of the Council is that children under eight years of age may be expected to walk up to two miles to school and children of eight years and over may be expected to walk up to three miles to school.
5 miles? as far as im aware it's 3 in keiss.......
I thought it was 3 miles too, or at least it certainly was when I was at primary school in the 1980s
Could be now that i think about it lol. Its defintly over 2 miles anyway. When i got the bus i lived about 5 miles out which is properly where i got 5 miles from! 3 miles is still quite a distance for a young child to walk.
do the goverment not think that all the new houses being planned will have children living in them they only look at to day the same with the hospital at dunbar and wick doing less and less it will cost us to transport the children to schools out side our villages to a school not of our choice and how much does it cost for a amblunce to transport a patient to inverness 2 paramedic and 1 amblunce off our area for a day it madness
angry and upset to read that according to the HC website..
School Transport
The basic policy of the Council is that children under eight years of age may be expected to walk up to two miles to school and children of eight years and over may be expected to walk up to three miles to school. The full policy can be found on the right hand side of this page (Current Documents) and defines when free transport to and from school is available. Parents should apply by means of the appropriate form which can be obtained from the school and completed at the time of enrolment, or can be downloaded here (Current Documents).
now tell me this.. social services would have you up in court for leaving a young child alone in the house without supervision.. but its ok for them to walk 2 miles to get to school on thier own, or 3 miles if they are 8 years old? people that P3 age we are talking about!
sam will be 8 in april and theres no way in hell i would ever let him walk 3 miles toget any where on his own.
Thrumster to Homebase is 3 miles.. is that the distance we should allow our 8 year old children to walk?
I don't have a problem with kids walking 3 miles to school in town, it'd probably do a lot of them some good in terms of exercise. The amount of cars whos owners live in Mt Vernon I see parked in Janet street at school closing time disgusts me. These parents won't let their kids walk a couple of hundred yards across the footbridge to get home. Then we wonder why there is so much child obesity.
In terms of the Thrumster example, or the debate over a child walking from Duncanshill outside Thurso that was in the paper recently, I think a fundamental difference is the provision of footpaths. Then it becomes a safety issue.
On the other side of the coin, people living up country tracks are expected to deliver their wheelie bins to the main road for emptying. I can also understand the point of view that people who chose to live outside town away from schools should be responsible for ensuring their children can get there.
Either way, you can't please everyone.
the point being. it would take a grown up about an hour to walk three miles.. how long would it take an 8 year old? i do not even let my nearly 8 year old go to the park by himself. he is allowed to play on our street and the next.. that my mate lives on.. and it is in a square block.. he is now allowed to cross the street to go to the shop.. but only because he has to cross it everyday to go to school and it would be silly to tell him he couldnt cross it at any other time.. hes not allowed to walk to thursday club on his own.. and thats less than a 5 min walk away.. quite happy for him to walk it.. just not by himself.
so as a parent it is my decision on how far i feel my child can safely go on thier own.. and that is too far. its not about the exercise.. we walk that easily when we walk the dog. it the age of the child and the distance and roads they would have to cross on their own. in theory a 5 year old child is expected to walk 2 miles to get to school.. south school to tesco is not even two miles away. is that justified?
Brandy,
You are perfectly correct, it is entirely your decision what you will and will not allow your child to do. I wouldn't suggest otherwise and I wouldn't want to see that taken away from you.
Some might say 3 miles is too far, some might say 1 is, and everyone is entitled to their opinion. But the current council policy is in place and, given the pressure to cut costs, I think it is very unlikely that free, or even subsidised travel, to school within the 3 mile radius will be introduced anytime soon.
I also think, for children within the town itself, they won't have to walk anything even remotely close to 3 miles. The example you give of south school to Tesco is 1.7 miles according to google, but the fact is that they're at opposite ends of the town and so not realistic. In reality, children won't have to walk that far.
I don't know Wick that well, but looking at the proposals it seems that there will always be schools either side of the river, unless one single school is built. Given that, it doesn't lookk as if any child living within the town boundary would have to walk more than about a mile.
there is also the idea that the kids will have to cross busy roads.. such as the a99 coming into wick to get to school. which would be the case for children from south school going to academy. when it comes to older children.. i can understand this.. but for younger children.. i just cant say i like the idea. ive seen how people drive on that road.. and how even high school kids dart in and out of traffic there.. and nearly get run down.. ive even about taken down a few grown ups that have jumped out in front of me without ever looking before they cross the road.
i think they will need to def. install a zebra crossing on the road.. and have a dedicated crossing guard.
this is something that will have to be put towards safer routes to school.. and as soon as i know what direction we are going in.. something that i will be bringing up with our parent council.
sorry if i sound as if im getting on my high horse.. but saftey for my children is number 1. its something i really have to look into.. and while i will support anything that will help to improve the education of our towns children.. i have to stand back and look at things as a mother first and what is best for my child, before i look at the bigger picture.
Brandy there is already a crossing guy at the road you are talking about for the kids going to academy
The crossing issue is particularly important given recent Highland Council decisions regarding road safety in Watten.
http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?133614-Watten-School-Crossing
secrets in symmetry
19-Feb-11, 12:56
I want to see the report the consultants who were paid £300k to come up with this list of options came to thier decisions. I will be asking why Mount Pleasant was chosen over the other two. i dont want any of the three primaries in Thurso to Close. Both Mount Pleasant and Pennyland currently have @ 250 pupils with Miller at @350. i will be fighting and campaigning very hard over the next few weeks to ensure that Mount Plesant stays open and that this option is not chosen.
Your numbers seem a bit high. Here are the figures from Highland Council (http://www.highland.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/BFC45E0A-4C0E-46D5-B087-14748DFBA741/0/101026schoolrollsummary201011.pdf)
Thurso
-------
Miller Primary School 266
Mount Pleasant Primary School 181
Pennyland Primary School 177
---------
Total 624
Wick
-----
Hillhead Primary School 178
North Primary School 130
Pulteneytown Primary School 204
South Primary School 77
---------
Total 589
I know some primary schools in the south with rolls bigger that the three in Thurso combined, or the four in Wick combined. Rightly or wrongly, people in those areas would regard having three primaries in Thurso and (especially) four in Wick as a luxury. I suppose it's cheaper to run a smaller number of bigger schools but I don't know what the saving would be, if any.
I'm not advocating closure of any of those schools so please don't shoot the messenger.
just to clarify.. there is a lot more than 5 children that attend ceyac.. im assuming that they mean full time students that do not attend part time at main stream.. for instance ben spends a couple hours on Monday morning in main stream school.. but the rest of the time is at ceyac.
Your numbers seem a bit high. Here are the figures from Highland Council (http://www.highland.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/BFC45E0A-4C0E-46D5-B087-14748DFBA741/0/101026schoolrollsummary201011.pdf)
Thurso
-------
Miller Primary School 266
Mount Pleasant Primary School 181
Pennyland Primary School 177
---------
Total 624
Wick
-----
Hillhead Primary School 178
North Primary School 130
Pulteneytown Primary School 204
South Primary School 77
---------
Total 589
I know some primary schools in the south with rolls bigger that the three in Thurso combined, or the four in Wick combined. Rightly or wrongly, people in those areas would regard having three primaries in Thurso and (especially) four in Wick as a luxury. I suppose it's cheaper to run a smaller number of bigger schools but I don't know what the saving would be, if any.
I'm not advocating closure of any of those schools so please don't shoot the messenger.
Glad we have got the figures up at last, and thanks for the link to all the data for other Highland areas.
If you go here (http://www.highland.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/BFC45E0A-4C0E-46D5-B087-14748DFBA741/0/101026schoolrollsummary201011.pdf) and look at the numbers in each column, you will see that the Thurso primaries have some of the largest rolls in any Highland administrative area outwith Invernesss itself (the 3rd column).
Why would Highland Council want to amalgamate some of its largest schools?
Why would Highland Council want to amalgamate some of its largest schools?
One head teacher looking after 600 pupils will get paid a lot less than the sum of two looking after 300 each.
It will be the same for maintenance costs, insurances etc.
I also imagine a school sized lump of ground with playing fields next to a residential area is probably worth a pound or two.
secrets in symmetry
19-Feb-11, 14:48
Glad we have got the figures up at last, and thanks for the link to all the data for other Highland areas.
If you go here (http://www.highland.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/BFC45E0A-4C0E-46D5-B087-14748DFBA741/0/101026schoolrollsummary201011.pdf) and look at the numbers in each column, you will see that the Thurso primaries have some of the largest rolls in any Highland administrative area outwith Invernesss itself (the 3rd column).
Why would Highland Council want to amalgamate some of its largest schools?Yes, I noticed that the Thurso Primaries have larger rolls than most of the others outside Inverness. I suspect the answer to your question is that they could close a Thurso primary school without increasing the travel to school distance by more than a mile for any pupil. That's not the case for small schools in country areas. It's a paradox.
If you look at numbers, and numbers alone, then South School in Wick looks particularly vulnerable.
If you look at numbers, and numbers alone, then South School in Wick looks particularly vulnerable.
And the amalgamation of South School is mentioned in 4 of the 6 non status-quo options.
What's not clear (or is it?) is if the only options that will be considered by the council are the ones given? If that is the case, can we assume that Miller in Thurso is definately safe, and that, unless the status quo is kept in Thurso, Mt Pleasant will close?
If that is the case, can we assume that Miller in Thurso is definately safe, and that, unless the status quo is kept in Thurso, Mt Pleasant will close?
If this is what they want as an outcome, can all of the projected Mt Pleasant roll fit into Miller or would they propose something mental, e.g. everyone living to the left of Mount Pleasant Road goes to Pennyland and everyone else goes to Miller?
If this is what they want as an outcome, can all of the projected Mt Pleasant roll fit into Miller or would they propose something mental, e.g. everyone living to the left of Mount Pleasant Road goes to Pennyland and everyone else goes to Miller?
I would have though that, just for distance, they would all go to miller, and maybe some that now go to miller (ie high ormlie) might go to pennyland?
I'm not suggesting that the closure of Mt Pleasant is "what they want", just that it appears in every option other than the status-quo.
That does sound more like Highland Council logic, doesn't it. Disrupt all three schools so that nobody can say there was favouritism :roll:
secrets in symmetry
19-Feb-11, 15:25
If this is what they want as an outcome, can all of the projected Mt Pleasant roll fit into Miller or would they propose something mental, e.g. everyone living to the left of Mount Pleasant Road goes to Pennyland and everyone else goes to Miller?Playing the numbers game again, wouldn't all the Mt Pleasant pupils fit into Pennyland? Their combined roll is 358 and I suspect Pennyland's roll alone may have been bigger than that back in the day.
Sadly, this is how some Council bean counters think.
I'm afraid I don't know what the roll of Pennyland used to be. However, some of the primaries in Thurso only managed to work with larger rolls by erecting huts in their playground. I can imagine the uproar if one school closes and we end up going back to temporary classrooms to fit everyone in.
Back in the 80's there were 14 classes in miller, 2 for each year.
I'm not sure of the allowable class sizes, but assuming 30 people per class that would suggest 420 pupils.
With current pupil levels, that size would accomodate Mt Pleasant less 30 or so pupils.
I'm sure things have changes since the 80's though!
I'm afraid I don't know what the roll of Pennyland used to be. However, some of the primaries in Thurso only managed to work with larger rolls by erecting huts in their playground. everyone in.
The "temporary" huts are still in place at Miller and the high school after 30 years, not sure about the other schools.
secrets in symmetry
19-Feb-11, 15:49
Back in the 80's there were 14 classes in miller, 2 for each year.
I'm not sure of the allowable class sizes, but assuming 30 people per class that would suggest 420 pupils.
With current pupil levels, that size would accomodate Mt Pleasant less 30 or so pupils.
I'm sure things have changes since the 80's though!Indeed and it was similar at Pennyland. Many schools have huts that are close to 50 years old, perhaps even older.
Alice in Blunderland
19-Feb-11, 17:38
Rural schools will get more protection from closure with new rules to ensure alternatives to closure must be fully explored by local authorities, it has been announced.
In a move designed to ensure communities' ideas for keeping open schools which face closure are properly examined, Education Secretary Michael Russell said that any closure proposal that fails to properly examine alternatives will be halted by Ministers.
Mr Russell said:
"The Scottish Government has done more than ever before to give rural schools the protection they need. The Act passed by Parliament last year ensures councils must properly consult before they can close a school and any school closure can only go ahead if the alternative on offer is educationally better than the existing arrangements.
"However, more still needs to be done, especially for rural schools. One of the chief concerns of many rural communities is that they feel their ideas for viable alternatives to closure are not given a fair hearing. We must address this frustration.
"Where an alternative to closure meets the educational needs of the children, the parents, the teachers and - in these financially difficult times - the council, we will ensure it is fully explored.
"We will work with communities, local authorities and stakeholders on fresh mandatory guidance that makes it clear to councils that they must consider all viable alternatives to closure - regardless of the source. They must listen to, examine, test and - when it holds water - accept any plan that a community brings forward to save a rural school.
"If a council fails to do so, I will not hesitate to call those plans in and halt those closures until all practical alternatives have been fully examined."
More food for thought.
Thanks Alice I was wondering about the village schools.
I know it may seem im more interested in the school my children will end up at, but I was wondering about the proposals for the village schools getting algamated and the facilities and capacity they have.
As well as the state of the school buildings, as they have been neglected apart from essential repairs for a while due to cost cutting.
Its all a bit confusing...and I cannot work out the numbers for the pupils if the schools algamate as the kids may end up at different schools as the catchment zones will be changed Ie half the kids at bower may end up at castletown and the other half at watten in one proposal depending on where the new invisable line is drawn.
Chrisf1961
20-Feb-11, 09:47
Just found this on the Highlands Gov website
http://www.highland.gov.uk/yourcouncil/news/newsreleases/2011/February/2011-02-17-03.htm
Theres something amongst the proposals Brandy about relocating Ceyac ? leaves me all at sea this does still fighting for a place there with Ben......
Just found this on the Highlands Gov website
http://www.highland.gov.uk/yourcouncil/news/newsreleases/2011/February/2011-02-17-03.htm
Yes Chris, those are the proposals being discussed here.
Alice in Blunderland
20-Feb-11, 10:32
Thanks Alice I was wondering about the village schools.
When you look at the definition of rural according to the Scottish Government, it could be said that even the town schools in Caithness are to be classed as rural.
And large schools are less personal, more intimidating and less in touch with their pupils and families and the existing problems within the school itself than a smaller school is. I have been in a school of thousands. The bigger the school, the easier it is to slip below the radar. Bullying and other disciplinary problems are more common and more easily missed/ignored. Smaller schools give the children a better primary education. But what will happen is that the highland council will cut funding. They will shut down schools because of the economical situation, to save money for a financial situation that our children will pay for over and over again. Starting right now by shutting their schools.
Chrisf1961
20-Feb-11, 13:28
What a fantastic post tells it exactly as it is ..........
secrets in symmetry
20-Feb-11, 14:13
When you look at the definition of rural according to the Scottish Government, it could be said that even the town schools in Caithness are to be classed as rural.How do you reach that conclusion? Wick has four primaries within a mile and a half of each other. That's urban density.
The bean counters will steamroll you if that's the best defence you have.
Alice in Blunderland
20-Feb-11, 15:22
How do you reach that conclusion? Wick has four primaries within a mile and a half of each other. That's urban density.
The bean counters will steamroll you if that's the best defence you have.
I only said 'it could be' when you look at the definition given according to the Scottish Governments calculations. I am not intending on using it as a defense.
Alice in Blunderland
20-Feb-11, 17:00
Table 1.1 – Definitions of “rural”
Accessible
Rural
Settlements of fewer than 3,000 people within 30 minutes’ drive
of a settlement of 10,000 or more
Remote
Rural
Settlements of fewer than 3,000 people that are over 30 minutes’
drive from a settlement of 10,000 or more.
The exact text I was referring to in my post. :D
well that rules wick out as it has a settlement of over 3000 to begin with.. its not rural.. just because theres not a settlement of over 10000 in a 30 min drive.
secrets in symmetry
21-Feb-11, 00:15
When you look at the definition of rural according to the Scottish Government, it could be said that even the town schools in Caithness are to be classed as rural.
How do you reach that conclusion? Wick has four primaries within a mile and a half of each other. That's urban density.
The bean counters will steamroll you if that's the best defence you have.
I only said 'it could be' when you look at the definition given according to the Scottish Governments calculations. I am not intending on using it as a defense.
Table 1.1 – Definitions of “rural”
Accessible
Rural
Settlements of fewer than 3,000 people within 30 minutes’ drive
of a settlement of 10,000 or more
Remote
Rural
Settlements of fewer than 3,000 people that are over 30 minutes’
drive from a settlement of 10,000 or more.
The exact text I was referring to in my post. :D
Never before have I seen someone present followup evidence that their original claim was wrong. I salute your honesty and integrity, and I wish you luck in your campaign.
Alice in Blunderland
21-Feb-11, 08:11
Ah honesty and integrity thanks.
I was making the remark following a conversation with someone from the Education department who mentioned this to me. It was in relation to the fact that ten thousand is the quoted population considered for bigger areas.
As for luck with the campaign I think many schools out there are in need of a large dose of luck.
I have no connections with the town schools however this piece of information however trivial may be of interest to one of their parent councils.
I accept that something has to be done regarding safeguarding their sustainable future, this said the end result will be upheaval for the children and loss of jobs for what may appear to be quite a few teachers who have brought their skills back to this area.
SunnyChick
21-Feb-11, 11:03
Very concerned!
Small rural/crofting areas have already suffered a fair amount of de-population over the years, and closing our small schools will only add to this problem. We need families to stay in these small/remote places!
Our wee school forms part of the backbone of our community. News comes home through the schools about an up and coming event, then we all go along and support it!
We know the parents of the kids our children play with (which I don't believe is as likely in a large school).
If the country schools close, property won't sell, local businesses will lose some of their trade, communities may lose their identities, and over time, large parts of Caithness will eventually become very bleak and desolate.
Option 1 for our small schools!
Duncansby
21-Feb-11, 11:20
The rural/ urban classification map which Alice in Blunderland was referring to can be viewed here (http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2010/08/2010UR/Q/Page/3). There are two, a 6-fold and 8-fold classification, which uses different definitions in each. As if describing what is rural isn't complicated enough!
I completely agree with what Sunnychick has said and a school in the country is often the centre of the community. We should be doing things to encourage economic growth in rural areas not stiffling it by closing vital services such as schools. Who is going to want to move to an area where their young kids have to travel a significant distance ever day just to get to and from school.
Alice in Blunderland
21-Feb-11, 11:47
Its all about thinking outside the box !!
Okay so there is decline in the area, what to do to address this ? add to it by withdrawing services from fragile communities? Make no doubt about it this gradual withdrawal of services and facilities will be, or will add to, the death nail on some small communities.
In previous years this should have been addressed when the finance was a little more readily available, now times are tough the decisions for these communities are unfortunately more finance motivated than anything I defy any one to prove me wrong on this. Instead of withdrawing services and making the area even less attractive these services and facilities should be maintained and indeed built upon to make them a more viable option. Half empty schools...... fill them with council staff ! no need to build fancy new buildings when you already have half empty buildings going into decline on your books.
Sustainable future is not only for the schools but for the communities surrounding these schools. Many local young families (including mine) are now sitting up and thinking what is there here for us ? In time the population shift will possibly become more severe as more and more services are withdrawn, the cost of living becomes much more and the advantages of living in this area become far more outweighed by the disadvantages.
Time for some in depth long term sustainable ideas not running around chasing tales and cut, cut cutting to make this area an even more undesirable place to live.
As far as i can see after reading the review the worst options are wick option 5. Reciepe for distaster. Same in thurso option 3. Some other options if they had to be done don't seem too bad but for the parents and children involved it would be a nightmare.
In total in wick and thurso putting all the schools into one will only ensure that our children's education is going to suffer greatly. Teachers will have no time to help the children as an individual and i fear many children will be left behind. This is what i'm very concerned about.
From a personal point of view as i want my son to go to miller i really hope miler does not close or all thurso schools go to that site as it would make a good school a bad one.
secrets in symmetry
22-Feb-11, 00:45
The rural/ urban classification map which Alice in Blunderland was referring to can be viewed here (http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2010/08/2010UR/Q/Page/3). There are two, a 6-fold and 8-fold classification, which uses different definitions in each. As if describing what is rural isn't complicated enough!
I completely agree with what Sunnychick has said and a school in the country is often the centre of the community. We should be doing things to encourage economic growth in rural areas not stiffling it by closing vital services such as schools. Who is going to want to move to an area where their young kids have to travel a significant distance ever day just to get to and from school.
Thanks for that Duncansby. According to the 8-fold way, Thurso and Wick are clearly:
Very Remote Small Towns
Settlements of between 3,000 and 10,000 people, and with a drive time of over 60 minutes to a Settlement of 10,000 or more.Did Thurso ever have a population of 10,000 during its heyday in the 1960s and '70s? If so, it could have sneaked into:
Other Urban Areas
Settlements of 10,000 to 125,000 peopleThat's enough to turn anyone into a quivering blancmange.
Duncansby
22-Feb-11, 01:16
I don't know about Thurso, but during the height of the herring industry the population of Wick increased by about two thirds during the summer. Not really relevant, but interesting none the less.
Did Thurso ever have a population of 10,000 during its heyday in the 1960s and '70s?
I'm sure it was over 10,000 at some point. Maybe somebody knows the true figures?
But surely we're not just talking about town within their traditional boundaries. The new houses at Gills are technically Scrabster. Is (and has) scrabster been included in the population for figures? Where a small community (such as Waydale / Murkle) exists, and doesn't have a school, are these populations included in the figures for the nearest town?
I have no idea, but I think it could make a difference.
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.