What did the Germans ever do to us? [Archive]

View Full Version : What did the Germans ever do to us?

John Little

14-Feb-11, 22:35

Episode one - the First World War.

I was asked an interesting question on another thread where I said that if you had power you could invade other countries that had done nothing to us. Somebody asked me what the Germans had done to us- and I did not answer on that thread because it was not about this. But now I’ll poke a stick in this matter and see if it throws up some opinion. The question did not ask about which war....

However opinion is always worth reading and history is interpretation or it is nothing.

So what did the Germans ever do to us?

Back in the 1870s we liked the gallant Germans. They took on the bullying French, eaters of snails and frogs legs, beat them and their army spontaneously broke into ‘Now thank we all our God’ when the French army surrendered at Sedan. They had been the underdog. But our Queen’s eldest daughter was married to the Kaiser’s son Fred and they has a kid called Willi who was damaged at birth and had a bit of a chip on his shoulder- he became Kaiser in 1888.

He sacked his dear old Chancellor in 1890 and began to pursue a policy called ‘Weltpolitik’ which involved Germany expanding its interests overseas with an aggressive foreign policy. To that end they passed laws stating that if any german government failed to increase the size of their navy then they were committing an illegal act. The new Fleet was short range – and was designed to take on and defeat the Royal navy in home waters. Willi wanted a place in the sun and knew that he would have to beat the RN- it was a deliberate challenge to his grandmother’s empire – and no-one forced him to do it. He just wanted to show his English mama that he was all grownup now.

In 1898 he stuck his nose in to Britain’s affairs by selling mauser rifles and ammunition to the Boers in S Africa- they used them to slaughter thousands of our troops and he was not popular in Britain when he sent a telegram of support to our enemies at the height of the fighting. In Liverpool they named a football stand after the battle where our blokes got slaughtered - why - I do not know. Scousers are beyond me.

In 1906, seeing a new friendship blossom between Britain and France Willi decided to test its strength by horning in on the French sphere of influence in Morocco. To his surprise the friendship held and Britain stated clearly that it would support its friend if she were attacked. He was annoyed but at least he had been consulted - so he consoled himself just a little bit.

In 1911 he decided the French were getting uppity in Morocco again and he sent a gunboat to Agadir on the Moroccan coast – and visited there himself. It appeared that he was hoping to get a concession for a German naval base which would extend the range of the German fleet into the Atlantic and threaten our trade routes. Britain made it clear that she would defend her interests and he withdrew from the scene.

In 1914 a war started and we did not have to join it so although much perturbed at the thought of France being attacked, we did not go to war. We asked for guarantees that the German Fleet would not bombard northern France because that would be going a little too far. But then the German army asked King Albert of the `Belgians if they could attack France by going through Belgium. Albert said no – and told them ‘Belgium is not a public thoroughfare’ – so they invaded Belgium.

This- despite the fact that they knew that Britain had a twice signed treaty with Belgium- the only one that we had in Europe. It has been British policy for 1000 years not to tolerate a foreign army in Belgium – it is too easy to invade Britain from there. They knew what would happen. The story goes that when Bethmann Hollwegg, his prime minister warned him that the British would fight Willi replied' They will not fight over a scrap of paper signed so long ago, and even if they do we have nothing to fear from their contemptible little army'.

But that story could have been spread by British intelligence to get our guys riled up.

And when, at the last minute the British suggested a peace conference, they refused to come. Said they were busy invading Belgium....

And I have not even mentioned the N word yet- that’s a different war.

So it was the fault of the Huns you see.

bekisman

14-Feb-11, 22:42

Whoops, seems like I've started something..

I presumed (rightly or wrongly) that Mr Little was referring to Iraq or Afghanistan with his (I quote) "Like invading a country that's done nothing to us" So I thought, well, Germany had not actually attacked us directly(?) but we then proceeded (over a few years) to invade them.. just a thought :confused

John Little

14-Feb-11, 22:44

Well come to mention it - what did Iraq and Afghanistan do to us?

bekisman

14-Feb-11, 22:46

Well come to mention it - what did Iraq and Afghanistan do to us?

Trained their suicide bombers in one of 'em?

John Little

14-Feb-11, 22:47

Yes - and then they flew planes into the twin towers - in New York......

bekisman

14-Feb-11, 22:53

Yes - and then they flew planes into the twin towers - in New York......

Really! (Ahh where's Fred when you need him?)

John Little

14-Feb-11, 22:56

You need to ping Anfield.

So if they attacked New York and they were from Saudi Arabia and trained in Afghanistan - why did we attack Iraq?

Then went into Afghanistan - who had not bombed us?

We are in NATO. The North Atlantic Treaty Organisation.

Not the world police force. That notion was rejected by the Tories at Geneva in 1923 - thank goodness.

bekisman

14-Feb-11, 23:05

Never mind John, forget all that- just think; yet another two countries tasting the delights of Democracy - didn't we do well!!

John Little

14-Feb-11, 23:10

LOLOL! Your tongue must be so far in your cheek you'll need pliers to get it out!!

golach

14-Feb-11, 23:22

Then went into Afghanistan - who had not bombed us?

We are in NATO. The North Atlantic Treaty Organisation.

Not the world police force. That notion was rejected by the Tories at Geneva in 1923 - thank goodness.

I may be wrong, but I think the elected Afghan Government at the time asked Nato and the USA for help to combat the Taliban, and the UK being a member of Nato joined in along with other Nato members.
Nato was formed in 1949, a long time since 1923. different times.

gleeber

14-Feb-11, 23:35

We are in NATO. Not the world police force. That notion was rejected by the Tories at Geneva in 1923 - thank goodness.

We're not the world police force although future history will I'm sure be indebted to Britains input in the civilisation stakes. We did what everybody else did except Britain did it better for a while. Now Britain shows the way how a modern society can live in comparitive safety.
All the killing still going on may stop some day. History has shown we are becoming more interested in finding other ways of resolving issues. It's a process. Human nature is very complex
If there's one thing I'm proud of it's of being British. Thats what the Germans did for me.

gleeber

15-Feb-11, 00:20

I may be wrong, but I think the elected Afghan Government at the time asked Nato and the USA for help to combat the Taliban, and the UK being a member of Nato joined in along with other Nato members.
Nato was formed in 1949, a long time since 1923. different times.
It's funny how the mists of time change things when memories dim. The invasion of Afghanistan was as a direct result of the Twin Topwers atrocity and that single event has shaped world history since then. The jerries were in it too.

The Music Monster

15-Feb-11, 00:24

The Germans gave us some amazing, beautiful and inspirational music!

*I'm sticking to what I know a lot about here, it's safer than taking the slippery slope down into the murky waters that are politics!*

golach

15-Feb-11, 00:26

gleeber

15-Feb-11, 00:26

Theyre a hard team to beat in the football. Shows a hidden strengh amonst it's young men. They nearly took over Europe.

golach

15-Feb-11, 00:32

I was in Germany during the 1990 World Cup, Yes Gleeber I would agree with you, Germany could teach us a few things about football. [lol]

fingalmacool

15-Feb-11, 00:42

Aspirin, which is what you need after reading some of the sound bites on this forum:confused

Yes Yes mine included:confused

oldmarine

15-Feb-11, 01:08

We're not the world police force although future history will I'm sure be indebted to Britains input in the civilisation stakes. We did what everybody else did except Britain did it better for a while. Now Britain shows the way how a modern society can live in comparitive safety.
All the killing still going on may stop some day. History has shown we are becoming more interested in finding other ways of resolving issues. It's a process. Human nature is very complex
If there's one thing I'm proud of it's of being British. Thats what the Germans did for me.

I agree with Gleeber about trying to be the world police force. I served in the Pacific during WW2 and was a part of the force that defeated the Axis powers. However, since that time, my country the USofA has tried to become the world police force with too many troops in too many countries trying to keep order. That's not what I had in mind when we fought during WW2. I would rather the USA bring the troops home and guard our own borders.

Aaldtimer

15-Feb-11, 05:20

I agree with Gleeber about trying to be the world police force. I served in the Pacific during WW2 and was a part of the force that defeated the Axis powers. However, since that time, my country the USofA has tried to become the world police force with too many troops in too many countries trying to keep order. That's not what I had in mind when we fought during WW2. I would rather the USA bring the troops home and guard our own borders.

Well, they didn't do a great job there on 9/11 did they? Which brings us back to...:confused

John Little

15-Feb-11, 07:36

I may be wrong, but I think the elected Afghan Government at the time asked Nato and the USA for help to combat the Taliban, and the UK being a member of Nato joined in along with other Nato members.
Nato was formed in 1949, a long time since 1923. different times.

Nope. The Taliban government of Afghanistan were asked to root out out Al Quaeda by the US. They called a Loya Jirga, discussed it and rejected the US demands so the US decided to hit them. Quite right too.

But why we should do so is beyond me. Afghanistan is a long way from the North Atlantic.

The Drunken Duck

15-Feb-11, 09:15

Ah .. the Germans. God bless 'em .. every one.

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/2262/bwstehlen.jpg

Corrie 3

15-Feb-11, 09:56

They introduced me to Beck's Beer, and very nice it is to !!!

And I suppose you could say they were responsible for me being on this Earth.....They kept my Father away from my Mother for 6 years and on his return...well, .....lets just say I was born in 1946 !!!!

C3...:eek::roll:;)

northener

15-Feb-11, 10:15

gleeber

15-Feb-11, 10:42

I look around me at the state of the world and I for one am glad I was born in a country like Britain and especially glad that America is our friend. That doesnt mean I agree with everything they do but I understand the madness of the human condition and whatever will be will be. There's always someone or in fact millions who could do it better. That's a niave notion and based on little more than personal prejudices.
The Romans had their day. They built a civilisation at a time when cruelty was a way of life. Dont confuse civilisation with civilised behaviour.
We are just as capable of being cruel but the underlying process is one of being good.
You can moan about the Americans as much as you like but I believe that at their core they have good intentions.

bekisman

15-Feb-11, 11:00

The Drunken Duck

15-Feb-11, 13:37

Sorry but I think we need to distance ourselves from America. I like America and Americans and honestly believe that we have a close bond as people. But the American Government doesnt feel the same, we are just seen as someone that will tow their line. The very fact that we were dragged into a "War on Terror" by a country that allowed the IRA to fundraise there should be a warning. Terrorism was apparently OK then. That Obama sent Hilary Clinton to Argentina to discuss "Falklands Sovereignty" is another one, he just overruled our line of "Not an issue .. jog on" and stuck his nose in. Lets face it folks the US was willing to bargain with our Nuclear Deterrent details to broker a deal with Russia. Wake up and smell the coffee people, the American Government just see us as their lapdog. Witness the fangs out reaction to the BP spill and counter that with the "cover our backsides" attitude they have when it suits. They are mates with us when its convienent .. and when it isnt we get shoved to the back of the line.

But going back to the Germans .. a lot I talked to while based in Germany saw us the same way. I always felt that, out of all the countries in Europe, they are the ones we are most like. And I have had Germans say the same about us. I went out with a German girl for a bit and I found they had a very similiar outlook on life, I was asked more than once why we see a country across the atlantic as our biggest ally. Hard to answer that one really, I dont know. I personally feel closer to the Germans than I do the Yanks. I think that for all the history between us if it came to a push they would be there for us in a heartbeat. I think Brits and Germans tend to look at each other and see the same qualities, mainly because we butted heads that often we came to respect one another. I remember attending a German Remembrance Parade and meeting a Wehrmacht veteran of WW2, I was slightly on edge that my unform might cause offence. He just said that we basically saved Germany in the long run and he was grateful, you could have knocked me down with a feather. And they make the best beer, and fast food (Mmmm Schnell .. Imbis) all served by buxom ladies dressed in low cut tops .. cant get more "Brit" than that.

theone

15-Feb-11, 14:33

The very fact that we were dragged into a "War on Terror" by a country that allowed the IRA to fundraise there should be a warning. Terrorism was apparently OK then.

That is so true, and so under reported.

Prior to 9/11, biggest funding sources of the IRA were Boston and, ironically, New York.

Supporting the "cause back home" by people of Irish descent (although neither they, their parents or grandparents ever lived there) was seen as acceptable.

Terrorism was cool. A freedom fight. Something that happened elsewhere.

All that changed when a couple of planes flew into the twin towers.

There doesn't seem to be so much support for the IRA in New York anymore, and although the politicians would like to tell you otherwise, I think it has more to do with the changed American attitude on, and financial support for, terrorism than any peace negotiations.

oldmarine

15-Feb-11, 19:54

Well, they didn't do a great job there on 9/11 did they? Which brings us back to...:confused

You are correct Aaldtimer, they didn't do very good on 9/11. The troops were too busy fighting and guarding in other countries. That adds into my comment: bring our troops home so we can take care of our own problems.

John Little

15-Feb-11, 20:58

Episode 2.

So they invaded Belgium and about a million of them headed southwards. The froggies retreated but forgot to tell the British. When a reporter called out to the commander of the British army 'Where are you going Sir John?' as he passed by on a white horse, the reply was 'Why - Berlin of course!'

So 100,000 Brits bumped into 1.2 million Germans outside Mons and stopped them dead. This was because we had a secret weapon - a big angel dude in the skies firing arrows at the Germans and St George leading battalions of ghostly archers doing the same. They never stood a chance.

But the Brits had to retreat because the sneaks started surrounding us with their superior numbers - and they went back for 50 miles, joined with les Francais and counter attacked. Outside Ypres the Brits threw every cook and bottlewasher they had into the fight and both sides clawed each other to a stand still - and that was it. Exhausted they sat in trenches for the winter, intending to renew the fight in spring. But of course it did not happen - trench warfare for 4 years!!

Imagine digging a hole in your garden and living in it all winter - that's what it was like.

So they sank the Lusitania and killed over 100 people including scads of yanks. The yanks were really cross about it but the Germans paid compensation and promised never to do it against so the US stayed out of the war.

They kept trying strange new tactics to kill us - flamethrowers, minethrowers, poison gas and committed atrocities against the civilians in Belgium. They shot nurse Cavell and Mata Hari. Von Falkenhayn even dreamed up the notion of a war of attrition, though it's Douglas Haig who usually gets the blame for it.

Their Zeppelins flew over London and bombed the civilian population, killing people who had done nothing to them. The first to die were Mr and Mrs Good of Balls Pond road who burned to death while praying - Mr Good's arm was still round his wife when they found the bodies.

Their fleet sailed across the North sea and up the East coast bombarding the coastal towns killing lots of men, women - and children.

In 1917 they restarted their submarine campaign, which brought the US into the war - but children were starving to death in the north of England.

In 1918 they were outfought and asked for surrender terms. When they got a treaty which replicated the treaty they had forced on the French in 1871 and on the Russians in March 1918 they grumbled that they had been treated too harshly.

Then when they were supposed to hand their fleet over to us as part reparations for the war which they were mostly to blame for starting, they sank it in Scapa Flow.

What did the German do to us?

Plenty.

bekisman

15-Feb-11, 21:24

Well? who started it all; us or them?

John Little

15-Feb-11, 21:26

Mostly them on balance.

bekisman

15-Feb-11, 21:31

So it was ok to invade them then?

John Little

15-Feb-11, 21:33

Ah - the problem is that we actually did not. If we had done so in 1918 then there is a good chance there would not have been a second war. As it was, on Nov 11 1918 not one foreign invader stood on German soil.

bekisman

15-Feb-11, 21:44

The island of Mafia, part of German East Africa, was occupied by the British navy in 1914 ?.

John Little

15-Feb-11, 21:50

Well they could not grumble too hard - they had invaded Belgium, Luxembourg and France by then - also parts of Poland and Galicia. Ca C'est la guerre! And anyway they won the bit of the war in East Africa- von Lettow Vorbeck was an extraordinary commander.

bekisman

15-Feb-11, 23:23

Sorry John - just been on the 'phone to my German granddaughter for an hour (thank goodness for Onetel).. yes sounds like they were quite bad..

golach

15-Feb-11, 23:48

This part of my historical knowledge may be a little shakey John Little, but did the Angles not invade and over run your dear England in the 5th century? So you have much to thank the Germans for [lol]

Aaldtimer

16-Feb-11, 04:51

From Ballads of a Bohemian (http://books.google.com/books?id=HNAEAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA198) by Robert W. Service (New York: Barse & Hopkins, 1921), page 198:

MICHAEL
Robert Service

"There's something in your face, Michael, I've seen it all the day;
There's something quare that wasn't there when first ye wint away...."

"It's just the Army life, mother, the drill, the left and right,
That puts the stiffinin' in yer spine and locks yer jaw up tight...."

"There's something in your eyes, Michael, an' how they stare and stare—
You're lookin' at me now, me boy, as if I wasn't there...."

"It's just the things I've seen, mother, the sights that come and come,
A bit o' broken, bloody pulp that used to be a chum...."

"There's something on your heart, Michael, that makes ye wake at night,
And often when I hear ye moan, I tremble in me fright...."

"It's just a man I killed, mother, a mother's son like me;
It seems he's always hauntin' me, he'll never let me be...."

"But maybe he was bad, Michael, maybe it was right
To kill the inimy you hate in fair and honest fight...."

"I did not hate at all, mother; he never did me harm;
I think he was a lad like me, who worked upon a farm...."

"And what's it all about, Michael; why did you have to go,
A quiet, peaceful lad like you, and we were happy so?..."

"It's thim that's up above, mother, it's thim that sits an' rules;
We've got to fight the wars they make; it's us as are the fools...."

"And what will be the end, Michael, and what's the use, I say,
Of fightin' if whoever wins it's us that's got to pay?..."

"Oh, it will be the end, mother, when lads like him and me,
That sweat to feed the ones above, decide that we'll be free...."

"And when will that day come, Michael, and when will fightin' cease,
And simple folks may till their soil and live and love in peace?..."

"It's coming soon and soon, mother, it's nearer every day,
When only men who work and sweat will have a word to say;
When all who earn their honest bread in every land and soil
Will claim the Brotherhood of Man, the Comradeship of Toil;
When we, the Workers, all demand: 'What are we fighting for?'...
Then, then we'll end that stupid crime, that devil's madness—War."

John Little

16-Feb-11, 07:36

Aye - that's right. The Aenglish over-ran Britain as far as the Tweed in the east and turned much of it into Aengle-land. But the Kings of Aengle-land never succeeded in establishing their rule over the Kingdom of Strathclyde, which included Cumbria. That was conquered by the Kingdom of Alba to the north. The Albans were imperialists and intent on expanding to the south. Strathclyde kept a certain regional identity even after it became part of the new Kingdom of Scotland in the 12th century. They did lose Cumbria though.

I'm Cumbrian. We proud Strathclydians think you Albans and the damned English should go home.

Independence for Strathclyde.

Death to the Imperialists!

The Drunken Duck

16-Feb-11, 09:45

Hands up those who thinks this all started because a BMW cut JL up ??

If it makes you feel any better John we used to make our German exchange Pilot organise the annual Battle of Britian Cocktail party .. purely because his lot lost. Although he got his own back a few weeks later when he used the bombing range at Tain and once again we had the Luftwaffe bombing us.

Their greatest crime though has been detailed by one Edmund Blackadder who said .. "Their Opera's can last for days, and they have no word for fluffy".

John Little

16-Feb-11, 10:11

ducati

16-Feb-11, 10:25

You might be on to something there John. If Scotland managed to divest itself of Glasgow we could be the healthiest nation in Europe. :eek:

John Little

16-Feb-11, 10:29

Scotland is the name the Albans gave to expunge the memory of their conquests. You would live in Alba. Strathclyde would become rich on the profits of Clydeside ship building, engineering and coal....

bekisman

16-Feb-11, 13:00

Blackadder had it nailed I reckon.

No BMW though - blame Bekisman for asking the question.

I have not gone beyond 1918 yet though....

Anyway - have you never noticed- when you are doing 80 in the fast lane, the beggar tailgating you cos you ain't going fast enough is always either an Audi or a VW.....?
Me, asking questions?
Having lived in Germany for 9 years, can understand these Teutons getting jarred off with you Brits dawdling down the Motorway.
Autobahns have not, as you may have thought, unrestricted speed limits, as some 55% have local or conditional limits, otherwise the 'recommended speed' is only 81 mph (My daughter-in-law was picked up speeding on outskirts of a German city and was fined and had her licence suspended for a month).
It can be intimidating. You pull out onto an Autobahn - a lot are just duel-carriageway - and start to put your clog down,, nudging 90+ you see a little speck of light in the distance behind you, pull over to the other lane, and a second later a flash of colour and vehicle hurtles by and disappears within seconds.. and yet the number of accidents seems to equal those on speed restricted sections..
So as the Audi & BMW has a genetic tendency to go faster, it's no surprise that they find they get held up by slower moving Brit cars, it's not the drivers fault, it's built into the bloody vehicle..
One good thing (which generally works) is that trucks are not allowed to overtake others unless they drive 20 km/h faster than who ever they are overtaking, How many times have you been held up by two wagons clogging it along at 45-50 side by side for miles?
Anyway WW 2 - who invaded first; us or them..?

theone

16-Feb-11, 13:22

Me, asking questions?
Having lived in Germany for 9 years, can understand these Teutons getting jarred off with you Brits dawdling down the Motorway.
Autobahns have not, as you may have thought, unrestricted speed limits, as some 55% have local or conditional limits, otherwise the 'recommended speed' is only 81 mph (My daughter-in-law was picked up speeding on outskirts of a German city and was fined and had her licence suspended for a month).
It can be intimidating. You pull out onto an Autobahn - a lot are just duel-carriageway - and start to put your clog down,, nudging 90+ you see a little speck of light in the distance behind you, pull over to the other lane, and a second later a flash of colour and vehicle hurtles by and disappears within seconds.. and yet the number of accidents seems to equal those on speed restricted sections..
So as the Audi & BMW has a genetic tendency to go faster, it's no surprise that they find they get held up by slower moving Brit cars, it's not the drivers fault, it's built into the bloody vehicle..
One good thing (which generally works) is that trucks are not allowed to overtake others unless they drive 20 km/h faster than who ever they are overtaking, How many times have you been held up by two wagons clogging it along at 45-50 side by side for miles?
Anyway WW 2 - who invaded first; us or them..?

So true. I remember driving down a section of autobahn quite delighted with myself doing 120, only for a porsche to fly past like I was standing still.

The difference with German drivers, in my experience, is that they know the rules of the road and they follow them strictly.

You won't see many people dawdling along in the fast lane, it's an offence, you won't see many speeding on restricted sections of the Autobahn, and as you've pointed out, you don't get held up for 5 miles by lorries overtaking.

And you don't see people driving around with one headlight out either!

We, the drivers, and the police could learn a lot about driving and following/enforcing the rules of the road from the Germans, it really is a pleasure driving over there. Which is quite ironic, because their public transport is so good and so fast that you hardly need to drive long distances!

Gronnuck

16-Feb-11, 14:20

And you don't see people driving around with one headlight out either!

When I lived in Germany we took our car along to have the headlights checked for free every October/November. The testing team would often set up in a supermarket car park or such. If the car failed and it could be remedied easily, it was done there and then at minimum cost. Once passed an oval sticker was placed top centre of your windscreen. Through the winter the police would often randomly stop and check cars that didn't have a sticker. Drivers could be fined on the spot for having defective lights. I don't know if the Germans they still do this. It was very effective.

oldmarine

16-Feb-11, 14:51

Me, asking questions?
Having lived in Germany for 9 years, can understand these Teutons getting jarred off with you Brits dawdling down the Motorway.
Autobahns have not, as you may have thought, unrestricted speed limits, as some 55% have local or conditional limits, otherwise the 'recommended speed' is only 81 mph (My daughter-in-law was picked up speeding on outskirts of a German city and was fined and had her licence suspended for a month).
It can be intimidating. You pull out onto an Autobahn - a lot are just duel-carriageway - and start to put your clog down,, nudging 90+ you see a little speck of light in the distance behind you, pull over to the other lane, and a second later a flash of colour and vehicle hurtles by and disappears within seconds.. and yet the number of accidents seems to equal those on speed restricted sections..
So as the Audi & BMW has a genetic tendency to go faster, it's no surprise that they find they get held up by slower moving Brit cars, it's not the drivers fault, it's built into the bloody vehicle..
One good thing (which generally works) is that trucks are not allowed to overtake others unless they drive 20 km/h faster than who ever they are overtaking, How many times have you been held up by two wagons clogging it along at 45-50 side by side for miles?
Anyway WW 2 - who invaded first; us or them..?

Hello bekisman: I learned very quickly on the autobahn with an underpowered hire car, I did not venture out of the right lane. As for who invaded first I believed what I was told, it was the enemy which would be the other side - them.

John Little

16-Feb-11, 15:24

'Anyway WW 2 - who invaded first; us or them..? '

Sigh.

That was going to be in episode 5. You have stolen my thunder.

Never mind.
We and the froggies allied ourselves with Poland and at the end of March 1939 Neville Chamberpot, our PM told the German chancellor to lay off our buddies.

Adolf then said 'The leaders of Britain and France are little worms who would never dare risk a war against Germany.'

After the Italians had sunk one of our ships in 1937 Muggolini the Italian ruler said 'Democracy has no convictions for which men are prepared to give up their lives'.

They had already got away with killing thousands of people in Spain so in September 1939 they attacked Poland, just about everyone else and bombed London for 55 nights on the trot.

So in 1944 we invaded them.

I think they did rather ask for it.

The Drunken Duck

16-Feb-11, 15:43

Talking of historical things John have you been watching "The Promise" on CH4 on Sunday Night ??

It's a drama thats part present day and part flashback and deals with the events in Palestine post 1945-1948. I didnt know too much of it to be honest but I find myself sympathising with all sides involved. The Jews just wanted a homeland, the Palestinians were unfairly pushed off theirs to make room. And then there are the Para's, with the main character being one of those who liberated a concentration camp, having to deal with being called Nazis in a situation in which they can do no right by either side.

I think its a prime example of how history has many angles and right or wrong just depends on your perspective. In the above I think that all parties were right and wrong at some point. Cant remember who said it but I do remember this quote .. "History is not written by who is right, but who is left"

John Little

16-Feb-11, 15:47

That is true.
I have not been watching it; but to me the acid test of Palestine is very simple.

Was it ours to give?

Not according the UN Charter which hardly had the ink wet on it.

That could have ended very differently if Truman had not wanted to be re-elected. That mess was caused by the Yanks - and we were piggy in the middle.

You would not have found much sympathy for Israel in Britain in 1947.

golach

16-Feb-11, 16:22

To take another tack on this subject John Little, what has England ever done for Scotland??

I personally think very little, England deliberately went out to bankrupt Scotland in the 1690's. So were able for buy off the bankrupt Scottish Lords into signing the Act of Union in 1707, Scotland never recovered from the Darien Scheme so opportunist England got us on the cheap.
Scotland a few years later entered the Age of Enlightenment, by 1750 the Scots were the most literate nation in Europe.
From then on we as a Scottish Nation, founded, invented and discovered nearly every thing that makes Great Britain great even today.

John Little

16-Feb-11, 16:31

Hm - if you actually look at the event/chronology of that time I think it was more to do with a woman called Anne Stuart attempting to gain a closer and more profitable control over what she regarded as her dynastic homeland rather than the perfidious English. The English at that time were just as much put upon and oppressed as the Scots.

Ruled by the rich.
No say in what happened.
Cannon Fodder in the wars
Low standard of living.

Comrades in adversity I should say rather than cynical oppressors.

And aye - Scots have brains. There's no-one would dispute that, for the catalogue is endless.

But the Germans tried to say Shakespeare was German you know!!

bekisman

16-Feb-11, 16:58

[QUOTE=golach;820163]To take another tack on this subject John Little, what has England ever done for Scotland??
QUOTE]
Bailed out RBS & Bank of Scotland?;)

theone

16-Feb-11, 18:19

The Jews just wanted a homeland, the Palestinians were unfairly pushed off theirs to make room. And then there are the Para's, with the main character being one of those who liberated a concentration camp, having to deal with being called Nazis in a situation in which they can do no right by either side.

I think its a prime example of how history has many angles and right or wrong just depends on your perspective. In the above I think that all parties were right and wrong at some point. Cant remember who said it but I do remember this quote .. "History is not written by who is right, but who is left"

I think that's a great way of looking at things.

Although I don't always manage it, I try to take a holistic look at things and see things from all angles.

The whole Israel situation is a difficult one. Yes, the Jews were mistreated, but I still think the founding of the state of Israel was a huge mistake.

Imagine, the end of WW2, the Jews have been persecuted and want a homeland. Many countries feel empathy with them and so decide to grant them what they want, A homeland believed to be theirs because of a 3000? year old book.

That country is Scotland. Scots out, the Jews are coming. The Scots will be rehoused in a small area, Caithness

If that's not bad enough, and worthy of resentment, the Jews then decide that the land given to them is not enough and so start building in Caithness. Displaced from their homeland and now the Jews are invading them again. What do the international community do? Very little.

I can understand the problem the palestinians have with the Jews.

Corrie 3

16-Feb-11, 20:15

[QUOTE=golach;820163]To take another tack on this subject John Little, what has England ever done for Scotland??
QUOTE]
Bailed out RBS & Bank of Scotland?;)
Finished the "Cumberland Gap" so the English can emigate up here much quicker.

C3.....:roll::lol:

John Little

16-Feb-11, 22:42

Golach- you may enjoy this;

http://www.samueljohnson.com/scotland.html

But remember - he was speaking to a Scot...

golach

16-Feb-11, 23:29

John Little Dr?? S Johnson was one lone Englander, he was a jealous and bitter man, and a Tory to boot, he was jealous of these Scots, Francis Hutcheson (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Francis_Hutcheson_(philosopher)), Alexander Campbell (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Alexander_Campbell_(Restoration_movement)), David Hume (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/David_Hume), Adam Smith (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Adam_Smith), Thomas Reid (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Thomas_Reid), Robert Burns (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Robert_Burns), Adam Ferguson (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Adam_Ferguson), John Playfair (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/John_Playfair), Joseph Black (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Joseph_Black) and James Hutton (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/James_Hutton) and their acheivements in philosophy (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Philosophy), political economy (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Political_economy), engineering (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Engineering), architecture (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Architecture), medicine (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Medicine), geology (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Geology), archaeology (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Archaeology), law (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Law), agriculture (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Agriculture), chemistry (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Chemistry) and sociology (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Sociology) and many other fields.

John Little

16-Feb-11, 23:37

Lol! who needs a wooden spoon?

oldmarine

17-Feb-11, 00:14