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The Drunken Duck
14-Jan-11, 18:39
Seriously, this needs to be addressed. And I reckon we can easily come up with 101 suggestions that can make this country a better place.

Why cant we just tell it like it is anymore ??, I am tired of being told that I cant say this, cant do that, cant think that way .. blah blah blah. Today there seems to be an excuse for everything, no one is to blame and if you dare to stray off the politically-correct-non-offensive- mantra that the oxygen stealers in Westminster in Hollyrood spew out suddenly YOU become the problem. And I for one am sick of it, I want to see the return of common sense, of best person for the job regardless of gender, sexuality or skin tone. I want to see our cash spent here and not being given to people who havent paid into our system. Lets bring back common sense. I have a couple of ideas.

1 .. Foreign Aid gone. Skint people cant afford to go handing out the cash they have left, skint countries are the same. If India can afford a Nuclear program, Space program, and Aircraft Carriers then they cant be in that much poverty. If you spent that money on your poor we wouldnt need to prop you up.

2 ..

John Little
14-Jan-11, 18:43
Death penalty for murderers. A society which cannot protect its citizens from violence of that magnitude by imposing a deterrent is weak.

Corrie 3
14-Jan-11, 19:06
3).
Find and employ bankers that are happy to work for 50,000 a year and NO bonus!!!

C3...;)

teddybear1873
14-Jan-11, 19:11
4 - National Service is a must to get respect back from the youngsters.

theone
14-Jan-11, 20:24
5 - Ban party politics and force MP's to represent the wishes of their constituents instead of towing a party line.

golach
14-Jan-11, 20:39
6:- Bring back Corporal Punishment, and the Lochgelly Tawes at school

John Little
14-Jan-11, 20:39
A navy that actually blows pirates out of the water.

teddybear1873
14-Jan-11, 20:43
8- Get all illegal immigrants to re-build Hadrians Wall. Just make sure their on the other side building it.

Walter Ego
15-Jan-11, 00:40
Seriously, this needs to be addressed. And I reckon we can easily come up with 101 suggestions that can make this country a better place.

Why cant we just tell it like it is anymore ??, I am tired of being told that I cant say this, cant do that, cant think that way .. blah blah blah. Today there seems to be an excuse for everything, no one is to blame and if you dare to stray off the politically-correct-non-offensive- mantra that the oxygen stealers in Westminster in Hollyrood spew out suddenly YOU become the problem. And I for one am sick of it, I want to see the return of common sense, of best person for the job regardless of gender, sexuality or skin tone. I want to see our cash spent here and not being given to people who havent paid into our system. Lets bring back common sense. I have a couple of ideas.

1 .. Foreign Aid gone. Skint people cant afford to go handing out the cash they have left, skint countries are the same. If India can afford a Nuclear program, Space program, and Aircraft Carriers then they cant be in that much poverty. If you spent that money on your poor we wouldnt need to prop you up.

2 ..

So just how much foreign aid do we give to India? I don't know myself.

Walter Ego
15-Jan-11, 00:42
Good God.

Reading the above replies to the OP I feel like I'm reading the Daily Mail.....

redeyedtreefrog
15-Jan-11, 01:07
Oh dear, I'm glad you lot aren't running the country.

1. http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/poverty-matters/2010/oct/22/foreign-aid-budget-uk And only 250 million goes to India, and that's being scaled back.
2. You always run the risk of executing an innocent person, everyone should have the opportunity of being set free if they are proven innocent by convincing evidence.
4. Course, cos everyone under the age of 20 has no idea how to behave and should have their freedom stripped of them to fit your concept of "respect".
8. but they'd still be in Britain...

canadagirl
15-Jan-11, 01:12
6:- Bring back Corporal Punishment, and the Lochgelly Tawes at school
I had to look in wikipedia for this (Lochgelly Tawes), and was horrified. When my son's father died the first thing we did was cut 'the belt' into little pieces and burn it. I agree that many kids are out of control and disrespectful but I don't agree that the UK or any other country should go back to the dark ages. I am now going to duck and cover, I am sure I'll get flack for that statement! :confused

changilass
15-Jan-11, 01:16
Lets go back to the days when folk actually think and care for themselves.

Dig out your own drive and path round your house, instead of complaining that the council blocked your drive when clearing YOUR road.

Go check on your elderly neighbour occasionally, instead of complaining about social services when they have been laying dead for 3 blooming week.

Accept that you are an adult, instead of blaming your upbringing on you being a prat when are past your teenage years.

canadagirl
15-Jan-11, 02:02
9- How about we all concentrate on "good breeding" , which is different from good manners. If we could change the snarkey grumpy who cares who you hurt/offend mindset of a lot of people, and all pull together to make things pleasant for all maybe the rest would follow. It's a lot to ask...

teddybear1873
15-Jan-11, 02:26
Oh dear, I'm glad you lot aren't running the country.

1. http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/poverty-matters/2010/oct/22/foreign-aid-budget-uk And only 250 million goes to India, and that's being scaled back.
2. You always run the risk of executing an innocent person, everyone should have the opportunity of being set free if they are proven innocent by convincing evidence.
4. Course, cos everyone under the age of 20 has no idea how to behave and should have their freedom stripped of them to fit your concept of "respect".
8. but they'd still be in Britain...


Who cares. Least they will be all in England lol.

Aaldtimer
15-Jan-11, 04:04
We could start with improving our spelling! It's GREAT BRITAIN.:confused

Sarah
15-Jan-11, 05:19
Licenses for breeding animals.

Gronnuck
15-Jan-11, 08:37
4 - National Service is a must to get respect back from the youngsters.

What! As was from 1939 to 1960? Are you serious? Tell me you're joking.
I believe our Armed Services have been a bit busy lately; perhaps you haven't noticed?
Our military have enough to do at the moment without getting bogged down trying to sort out the myriad of problems/issues some younger members of our society have found themselves in.
You want to sort out society - use social workers, the judicial system, the probation service but let's not foist another problem onto our people in the military.

John Little
15-Jan-11, 09:23
[QUOTE
2. You always run the risk of executing an innocent person, everyone should have the opportunity of being set free if they are proven innocent by convincing evidence.
.[/QUOTE]

Once I thought as you did.


UK - 648 homicides recorded in 2008/09.

That was 136 down on the previous year. Add in figures for assaults which did not end in death. Add in manslaughter.

The number of casualties in Afghanistan since we engaged there is just over 300 at the moment.

Yet a murder rate that runs at over twice that figure every year is acceptable to you as part of normal life?

I believe now that we should have first and second degree murder. For premeditated murder where there is no shadow of doubt - much easier to prove these days with DNA testing, then I have come to believe that we should have the death penalty. Please don't tell me that it's been 'proved' that it is not a deterrent. I don't actually believe it.

James Hanratty insisted to the gallows that he did not commit the A6 murders. As you may know they DNA tested the semen on Valerie Storey's underwear about 3 years ago - and he was guilty.

I have come to the position, after moving several times during my life, that a society which cannot protect its citizens from premeditated murder is not truly civilised. And that it needs to be clear that anyone who does murder has stepped beyond the bounds of tolerance and acceptance. That they have no further place in society or part to play.

Why?

Because such a society allows the ultimate in uncivilised acts and persists in doing so.

For too long have abolitionists claimed the moral high ground on this issue. Over 600 deaths per annum insist that the onus is on the abolitionists to demonstrate that their way is best - not the other way round.

ducati
15-Jan-11, 09:31
Then why is the murder rate so high in the USA?

squidge
15-Jan-11, 10:02
James Hanratty may have been guilty John Little but Stefan Kisko was not. Locked up for years for the murder of Lesley Molseed this poor sad slightly odd man was released on appeal finally and lasted for less than a year before he died of a heart attack. His poor mother who campaigned for years for his release died shortly after. Make no mistake John, Stefan Kisko would have hanged. At the time there was NO DOUBT that he was guilty. He was not released for 16 years. Plenty of time for him to have appealed and had it rejected and STILL have been hanged. Today DNA evidence is completely irrefutable but who is to say that will be the case in 20, 30 or 50 years. I'm inclined to believe it will but I cannot be sure. In addition not ALL murder cases are decided by DNA and there is always human error to factor in.

The murder rate is shocking, however more killing is not the answer. If there is the possibility of one mistake then the price of capital punishment is too high.

Corrie 3
15-Jan-11, 10:20
(sorry, lost count of the number, I think it could be 9 or 10).!

Dont give anyone benefits until they have paid in at least 5 years worth of NI stamps. Teenage single Mothers to be kept by the Father of the child!!

C3....

John Little
15-Jan-11, 10:22
Then why is the murder rate so high in the USA?
As far as I am aware it has fallen rather dramatically in the last few years though I am going out and cannot hunt for corroboration. And the mere insistence that killing does not justify more filling is a sophistry.

It is all very well to wring hands and say that the murder rate is shocking but by implication you are prepared to accept this ongoing slaughter whilst feeling that nothing can be done about it. Yes - the occasional innocent person has been killed. Modern techniques make that less and less likely.

To me the toleration of an annual slaughter rate worthy of a small war is moral bankruptcy.

cecile
15-Jan-11, 10:40
maybe you should stop eating chips and deep fry everything that can be eaten and make the effort to cook proper healthy food ! health system being what it is , a good health start with a healthy lifestyle....solve problems at the root and dont hide them behind a nice wrapping...it might be the easy and lazy option but it never last and never improves, on the contrary

Metalattakk
15-Jan-11, 10:46
Good God.

Reading the above replies to the OP I feel like I'm reading the Daily Mail.....

Frightening, isn't it? It reads like an Idiot's Charter. :roll:

squidge
15-Jan-11, 10:48
Develop a sense of community and social responsibility. Change the curriculum to include a service element and encourage voluntary work or something similar. Start people thinking about how children are ALL our responsibility and let's take care of them all. Even the unappealing ones!

Restorative justice for young people. Let's get them facing the true effect of their actions and trying to put it right. Not hang them out to dry or give up on them or condemn them but to persuade them that they have a responsibility to society at large.

Helping parents be good parents especially single teenage mums. Helping them to instill loving discipline and love their children and become more resilient to life's knocks and build a happy home .
Massively massively improve the outcomes for those children that are in the care system. Currently they are more likely to become pregnant, be
excluded from school, to get pregnant, to leave school with no
qualifications, to end up in prison. And not by a small margin but amassive one. Barnardos did a report about this in 2006 and nothing much has changed. 79% of children in care leave school with no qualifications and 25% end up homeless. That's shocking.

Then tax bankers bonuses at 75% if they are paid more than a certain amount. Close loopholes that allow the super rich to avoid tax liability. Build more social housing, good quality and proper communities ... With gardens. Teach young people to be independent and how to cook lol.

billmoseley
15-Jan-11, 11:01
10 more respect given to the police. teachers, and any one else in authority. get those back and your well on the way to improving things

John Little
15-Jan-11, 11:46
Frightening, isn't it? It reads like an Idiot's Charter. :roll:


Which bits? The suggestions or those who want to do nothing?

Metalattakk
15-Jan-11, 12:04
Which bits? The suggestions or those who want to do nothing?

Just the idiotic bits - you know, the suggestions from people who haven't really thought through what their suggestion would mean, how it could be implemented or what the repercussions would be.

As Walter Ego says, it's like reading the Daily Mail comments section.

John Little
15-Jan-11, 12:11
Ah - then I assume that the people who are coming out against the death penalty have not read this document.
http://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons/lib/research/rp99/rp99-056.pdf

page 11 is most illuminating.

Because if they had then they might realise that we have rather a problem on our hands- that historically it has increased and that the current decrease is a blip in a very long upward trend.

Throwing money and sentiment at it does not solve it.

BTW - almost forgot- there were 646 executions in England and Wales between 1900 and 1964. If you tot up the number of murders prior to 1964 - then tot up the number of murders after 1964 that is also interesting.

We weight the scales in favour of the murderer it seems to me.

Metalattakk
15-Jan-11, 13:00
Throwing money and sentiment at it does not solve it.

Nor does killing murderers solve it.

Bazeye
15-Jan-11, 13:28
Get out of the EU.

squidge
15-Jan-11, 13:29
Sentiment? Not wanting to hang innocent people is sentimental? You make it sound like one or two people who turn outto be innocent don't matter. It would matter if it was your son who was hanged for a murder he did not commit. The right word is maybe emotive. It IS emotive.

Comparing the figures before and after 1964 is a useless measurement. The last fifty years have seen massive changes to our society and the communities within it. The break up of communities, the mobility of families, the dwindling of the extended family has changed the face of Britain. Add to that the decline in participation of organised religionand it's strict codes of behaviour and the increase in divorce and a million other things and you might start...just start to get to grips with the reasons violent crime andmurder has increased. But it is far more complicated than saying "we had less mixers and the death penalty in 1963 and no death penalty and more murders in 2010 therefore it means that the death penalty stops murderers"

Unless we start to build a society where people are valued and have
opportunity rather than deprivation then death penalty or not we will never start to tackle the murder rate.

robglysen
15-Jan-11, 13:43
We should be able to hang ian huntley, theres no doubt there.



Who cares. Least they will be all in England lol.

Okay. Am I detecting a little racism here, lol, I guess its ok if its all in humour, lol?

The Drunken Duck
15-Jan-11, 14:14
But it is cheaper to kill murderers, so why should I pay tax to keep a killer alive ??, in my view if you take a life you get dragged out to a remote hillside and given a 9mm in the back of the head. Body donated for medical research. As you can see I go for the simple, and cheap, approach. Stuff the rights of killers, they gave up their rights in my view when they took a life. And Rape becomes a mandatory life sentence, and any women caught falsely accusing a man of rape gets the same sentence. Paedophiles to be enlisted in the Army as "No 1 Mine Clearance Battalion" and shipped to Afghan where they will walk slowly through minefields being useful at last.

As for the aid to India, everyone kind of misses the point, why are we given ANYTHING to that country ??, If they were serious about reducing poverty in their own country they wouldnt be throwing cash at space programs, nuclear weapon programs and two aircraft carriers when a lot of their people dont have proper water or sewage facilities and live in the streets. The Indians will have aircraft on their carriers, we wont. Bet the 250,000,000 will help with that. In fact get rid of all foreign aid, we are skint and charity begins at home. And we aren't a refuge home for people who live in the various crapholes round the world. Want a better life ??, heres a thought .. stay where you are and improve your OWN lot.

Squidge, regarding throwing money at kids in care .. have a read of this blog, its an award winner an written by a guy who works inside the care system .. http://winstonsmith33.blogspot.com/ .. it'll open your eyes. And investment doesn't work. I am a product of the care system, I spent two stints in care and recently have had experience worked with 16-19 year olds on a Training Course to provide them with skills and qualifications because they did not get the required awards at school. For this shortcoming they were paid 55 a week. At 16, while they lived at home. Not bad for failing. And I quit after about three months because quite frankly most of them need sorted out, not treated like they are special. I was frequently abused, threatened and even physically confronted while just trying to help them. They KNOW that they can say and do whatever they like and nothing can be said to them, it was like going to work every day to be humiliated. I finally quit after squaring up to one particular lad who threatened me and then watched while he started crying and blamed me. Guess who was in the wrong though ??, What a pansy .. in a system run by pansies. What we should do is reward the kids who do well, if some want to screw around and waste opportunities let them. Welcome to the scrapheap. But dont reward them for failure. I had a crap childhood and spent time in care .. boo hoo. If anything it made me get on with it and achieve but then I didnt have someone at my back telling me everyone else was responsible for all my woes.

Education .. Three R's to be reinstated. Physical punishment in schools to be re-introduced. Teachers to have the power, not the "yoof".

Pregnant teenage girls .. no special consideration for anything. And the lads who get them pregnant foot the bill. Not us. The CSA is reformed from the man hating cash cow it is to a workable system. Maintenace to be tied to access rights, mothers who break access court orders get the same punishments as men currently do for not paying maintenance. There you go, equality in action.

Keep community punishments, but call them a chain gang. Use these criminals to then do work in the community from 9-5 like clearing up litter, restoring parks and local beauty spots. They wear black and white striped suits and have a patch with their crime on the back, with the writing in dayglo pink. And they wear these suits ONLY for the term of their sentence, allowed to go home at night. Failure to turn up for one day will result in starting from day one of their sentence. This will teach them to sort their own lives out or spend the rest of their life dressed as a cliche.

Prisons to be remodelled on Colchester Military Prison. All those made redundant from the Armed Forces to be re-employed as Warders. Young Offenders Institutions to be modelled on military recruit training. Bye Bye duvets, PS3's and the easy life. Your there to be punished and rebuilt as a responsible person. It will happen.

No National Service .. The British Armed Forces are the best in the world, for that to continue we will need to recruit the best volunteers. Not be inflicted with the dregs of society because its convienent for everyone else.

The Police "Service" will be renamed the Police "Force". Its there to catch criminals, not be warm and fluffy and hit targets.

Law to be changed so that Travellers can be dragged into court and convicted of Tresspass. None of this crap about your "lifestyle" choice. You dont sponge off us anymore. If you want to live outside the system do so, but that measn you support yourselves. All Gypsy Liason Officers in councils to have their posts removed, I mean .. seriously ??

Government reformed. No one becomes a Minister without experience in that Department. The Chancellor must have experience in buisness, the Defence Sec is an ex serviceman etc etc. Politicians to sign a charter on entering office. Failure to live up to this will result in a week in the stocks. We will not tolerate "accidentally" claiming thousands of pounds and then apologising .. YOU work for US .. never forget it. And you WILL do as your told.

Pull out of the EU. Restore our Fishing Grounds, save a packet and ensure that we make our own laws in our own country. I didn't ask to be a citizen of the EU, the people of Britian will be given the referundum they were promised and this will swiftly ensure our exit. Should be fun when the Germans get militant and the French surrender. Again.

Our armed forces will be properly funded. We pull out of Afghanistan, if they want to live in the thirteenth century go right ahead. We will maintain a strong enough force to defend our interests around the world. And thats it. Argentina to be told very bluntly to poke off, the Islands are ours and if you REALLY wanted them you would have fought harder. And then remind them that they are actually settlers in Argentina themselves and that as long as the Islanders want to be British they will be. Remember what happend last time. Then arrange a UN administrated vote of self determination to end the issue once and for all.

End the "Special Relationship" with America, its a crock. They used World War 2 to economically cripple us and the fact we are now in a "War on Terror" alongised a country that allowed the IRA to fundraise there. Those arms were then used to kill our guys. I like Americans but lets be honest, we are only their mate when it suits them. Terrorism was apparently not to be bothered about until it hit home in NY.

Enviromentalists .. Please. Shut. Up. You sail around the world in diesel powered boats complaining about the very drilling that gives you the fuel to do so. Make your mind up, you dont like Oil, you dont like Nuclear and now you dont like those efficient, clean wind farms because they dont look nice. Tell you what, how about you lot come up with an idea instead of just moaning about anything that others suggested. Or just clear off, that might be nice.

Political Correctness .. Banned. Any organisation that does not cater for EVERYONE is banned. The reason we have so much divison in this country is because everyone looks out for just their own gender, colour, sexual preference etc etc. We are missing the bigger picture. To be replaced with common sense with immediate effect.

Now I bet a few left wingers have read that and gone "Oh .. My .. God .. " but stop for a minute. The state of Britian today is down to you and your namby pamby everyone-is-to-blame-but-me culture and the fact that common sense, self reliance, responsibility and a sense of duty have been replaced with something most people despise. I certainly look around and think what on earth happened.

Corrie 3
15-Jan-11, 14:44
Well Drunken Duck,
Thats Britain sorted out, now how do we implement your suggestions?? I will back you all the way if you want to start a campaign..
C3....

ducati
15-Jan-11, 14:57
But it is cheaper to kill murderers, so why should I pay tax to keep a killer alive ??, in my view if you take a life you get dragged out to a remote hillside and given a 9mm in the back of the head. Body donated for medical research. As you can see I go for the simple, and cheap, approach. Stuff the rights of killers, they gave up their rights in my view when they took a life. And Rape becomes a mandatory life sentence, and any women caught falsely accusing a man of rape gets the same sentence. Paedophiles to be enlisted in the Army as "No 1 Mine Clearance Battalion" and shipped to Afghan where they will walk slowly through minefields being useful at last.............



Blimey, I can't help thinking if you have that much of a problem with the way we do things in the UK........

Who's problem is it?

Shabbychic
15-Jan-11, 15:01
Wow, Drunken Duck.:eek:

I don't think you just read the Daily Mail....I think you have shares in it.

crayola
15-Jan-11, 15:09
Frightening, isn't it? It reads like an Idiot's Charter. :roll:It sure does.

And what is most disappointing is that John Little is leading part of it. Never before have I seen such paucity of argument in his posts. He has no case to put forward and he calls upon us to justify our position. That's sick.

And I would start and lead a broomers' army to fight against DD's ideal society.

billmoseley
15-Jan-11, 15:53
at least we are discussing the problems whether we all agree with each other is a different matter. there is a problem but no easy answer dd has made some very good points and has given it some thought. i have just read the whole thread and am none the wiser as to what the answer is

Corrie 3
15-Jan-11, 15:55
11).
Anyone caught drink driving or driving while on the phone to be banned for life....That should save a few innocent lives !!!!

C3,....

crayola
15-Jan-11, 15:57
at least we are discussing the problems whether we all agree with each other is a different matter. there is a problem but no easy answer dd has made some very good points and has given it some thought. i have just read the whole thread and am none the wiser as to what the answer isOh dear....

You have not absorbed MA's point. They have not thought it through at all.

The irony is that given DD's previous posts about violence he has committed in the past, he would not have survived long enough in his own idyllic society to make that post. So we are all safe. :lol:

billmoseley
15-Jan-11, 16:27
maybe we should have a poll for a week on here to see what percentage of orgers would bring back hanging i would set it up but not sure how

squidge
15-Jan-11, 17:20
For goodness sake....how does no one get this. How is it so hard to understand. Drunken Duck all the things you say in your lengthy email are about dealing with the effects not the causes. Contrary to what you seem to think I am not some woolly minded soft touch. I have brought boys up to be lovely young men with jobs and manners. I know fine well how to instill discipline, I believe in smacking and I take no nonsense with drink drugs or nasty unpleasant little mates. I do not think people should get away with crime but I wouldn't hang someone for murder or for shoplifting. I believe everyone should get a fair crack at life
without being disadvantaged by the very system that is supposed to look after them.
Your post deals with the effects of the mess we are in not NOT the causes. As long as no one tackles the causes then the whole thing will continue.
I'm not talking about throwing money at the care system but even you can see it's not working. The blog you put me onto talks about a system that instills no discipline or sense of self worth in young people. How is that acceptable? How is it that 75% of kids in care don't get any qualifications? Are you suggesting these kids are beyond help? Or 75% of
them are too thick to get qualifications? What about the homeless stats 25% end up homeless and the spiral of drugs,alcohol abuse, unemployment, violence and so on continues.

Tackle the causes that lead to this and you may stop this spiral for some kids. Wait till they batter someone and end up in prison and you don't prevent the same thing happening to Another kid.

None of these kids talked about on that blog were born bad. At some time they learned to behave like that. Either because they are just bullying nasty individuals or because their father kept them in a shed. Don't smile... That was a real case of a real boy who's dad made him live in the shed because his gf didn't want to be bothered with him. He
was 11.

Aside from the care system...things are going wrong at a fundamental level and society has to have the will to fix them. Stamping our feet and shooting all those who get it wrong just creates a space for another
wasted life. It does nothing to change the things that caused the problem In the first place. Your methods won't solve anything because all they do is punish. Woolly fluffy stuff won't solve anything either but
a combination of both and a recognition that unless we create a society that cares we are lost and wemmight just start to change things.

teddybear1873
15-Jan-11, 18:23
We should be able to hang ian huntley, theres no doubt there.



Okay. Am I detecting a little racism here, lol, I guess its ok if its all in humour, lol?

No racism, just in humour, something that lacks in here sometimes :D

oldmarine
15-Jan-11, 19:29
Seriously, this needs to be addressed. And I reckon we can easily come up with 101 suggestions that can make this country a better place.

Why cant we just tell it like it is anymore ??, I am tired of being told that I cant say this, cant do that, cant think that way .. blah blah blah. Today there seems to be an excuse for everything, no one is to blame and if you dare to stray off the politically-correct-non-offensive- mantra that the oxygen stealers in Westminster in Hollyrood spew out suddenly YOU become the problem. And I for one am sick of it, I want to see the return of common sense, of best person for the job regardless of gender, sexuality or skin tone. I want to see our cash spent here and not being given to people who havent paid into our system. Lets bring back common sense. I have a couple of ideas.

1 .. Foreign Aid gone. Skint people cant afford to go handing out the cash they have left, skint countries are the same. If India can afford a Nuclear program, Space program, and Aircraft Carriers then they cant be in that much poverty. If you spent that money on your poor we wouldnt need to prop you up.

2 ..

This could apply to countries all around the world and just not to Britain....

Bazeye
15-Jan-11, 19:44
Serious question here. Some countries that give foreign aid to other countries receive it from others. Are we getting any?
Dont know if I read this on this forum or another but it rings true with me. "Foreign aid is given by poor people in rich countries to rich people in poor countries".

"Ever had the feeling youve been had".? Seems John Lydon was right all along.

squidge
15-Jan-11, 22:43
Are you a poor person then bazeye? Have you lost your home in a flood? Have you no running water? Do you go several days without food? Do your children starve in front of your eyes? Might you catch typhoid or cholera because you have no clean water?

A few years ago my marriage ended and I had no money. I was struggling so much and my wee boy then about 7 asked me "mum are we poor" and I replied "no but we are skint just now" We could ask the same about the country, "Is Britain poor?" the answer will be "no but we are skint just now"

Being skint passes.... Being poor doesn't without help. We should help where we can but I do agree that if countries can afford nuclear weapons and the like. Unless there is a disaster they should be working to support their own society.

gleeber
15-Jan-11, 23:40
I would make gratitude compulsory.

marwill
16-Jan-11, 00:19
Can we have more Respect.
If we cannot respect ourselves, how can we respect other people?:(

John Little
16-Jan-11, 01:14
It sure does.

And what is most disappointing is that John Little is leading part of it. Never before have I seen such paucity of argument in his posts. He has no case to put forward and he calls upon us to justify our position. That's sick.

And I would start and lead a broomers' army to fight against DD's ideal society.


Paucity of argument.

No case.

Sick.

Us.

I take it that you are anti death penalty then.


I was once.

You want argument. Very well I shall give you argument. It's not an ideological argument- it's my own for it is neither of the right nor the left, but it answers for me and for what I know.

All my adult life I have been hearing the stuff about how it's not their fault. If only we could bring up our children differently. If we could provide better care. If If If.

But that's not what keeps me awake at night.

Orgers- I am a teacher and have been one all my working life. It's all I ever wanted to be. I did not drift into it but chose it.

And I believe in the death penalty. I have four reasons.

The first is Gary. He was in my tutor group. He was 12 years old.

One morning I rode my bike to work, and as I approached the school I saw Gary cross the road in front of me - he smiled and said good morning. So did I - and then I went and registered my group.

He was not in school next day. They found his body behind a hoarding in Deptford High Street - he had been raped and murdered on his way back from pigeon club. They never caught who did it. He was 12.
When I think about him I still get upset and lie awake. I remember, bright as day, him crossing the road in front of me the morning of the day he died and it plays over and over in my head as I try to sleep. It will tonight.

The second is Clive.

He wanted to be a milkman. It was his dream. Lovely kid; blond hair, blue eyes - every girl's dream of a boyfriend I should think. Gentle, considerate- just coming up to GCSE and age 15. He was with his girlfriend in a club in New Cross and some guy wanted to dance with his girlfriend and got obnoxious. The girl did not want to dance with him so Clive said no. He was stabbed through the heart.


The third is Lee.

You remember those big stereo ghetto blasters that people used to carry round on their shoulders before they invented Walkmans? Lee was walking with a mate through New Cross and he had one of those on his shoulder.
The mate said that a car stopped and two men tried to snatch the ghetto blaster.
Lee resisted - so they shot him dead through the head.

The fourth is Stephen. He was not very bright and supported Millwall. He made the mistake of shouting 'Millwall' at a group of West Ham Fans on an underground platform. He died under the wheels of the train they threw him under.

There would have been a fifth but Mickey was yards from Guy's hospital when his throat was cut open with a bowie knife and they saved him. He was back in lessons after a few weeks with a step in his adam's apple.

I have known 2 murderers and a violent rapist as well just to even it up.

You want to know what is sick?

It's a society which allows people that you seem to have no conception of to slaughter people, send them to prison and let them out after a few years. My students lie in their graves, their lives, loves, careers and aspirations cut down, their families grieving and all decency outraged.

You wonder that I can find sick a society which tolerates such a thing as a normal part of life? You wonder that I can find it uncivilised? You wonder that I can think that society has abdicated its duty of care?

That you can give me no alternatives to the same woolly nonsense I have been hearing these last 40 odd years argues not that I am sick but that you have no answers save to jump down the throats of those who want laws to make our streets safe.

Walk in my shoes, see my memories and see the faces of my dead pupils then feel that you may judge me.

scorrie
16-Jan-11, 02:22
Good God.

Reading the above replies to the OP I feel like I'm reading the Daily Mail.....

I lost money tonight when Baltimore were eliminated from the NFL playoffs. Luckily, I just won it all back in a bet on how long it would take someone to mention the Daily Mail on this thread. Many thanks Amigo!!

sandyr1
16-Jan-11, 02:32
As far as I am aware it has fallen rather dramatically in the last few years though I am going out and cannot hunt for corroboration. And the mere insistence that killing does not justify more filling is a sophistry.


It is all very well to wring hands and say that the murder rate is shocking but by implication you are prepared to accept this ongoing slaughter whilst feeling that nothing can be done about it. Yes - the occasional innocent person has been killed. Modern techniques make that less and less likely.

To me the toleration of an annual slaughter rate worthy of a small war is moral bankruptcy.

There is a saying....'Tis better that 100 Guilty men go free than one innocent man be hanged'. How can we/you pass such a Judgement on those who could be innocent?
All Countries have a system which is 'The Law of the Land'. We, the Western World', have the most civilized and likely the best system. I have seen as much as you, likely more, and yes there are areas of improvement, but I would hate to live in a World where innocent people are 'done away with'/ Vigilante Justice Style.

And Squidge...I like your common sense approach.

squidge
16-Jan-11, 05:37
A powerful post John little and painful truths indeed. Whilst i cannot accept the death penalty is the answer I thank you for sharing your reasoning with us.

theone
16-Jan-11, 06:34
I'm not particularly pro-death penalty but I can understand how people experiencing or being affected by crimes (such as John Little) can feel strongly for it.




We, the Western World', have the most civilized and likely the best system.

Thats a big comment to make. Who are "WE?"

The justice systems in the USA and Britain for example are VERY different. You don't often hear of people getting sentenced to 99 years in prison in Britain, and the USA obviously has the death penalty in some states.

I remember reading a book (catch me if you can - worth a look, far better than the film) that included a section about French prisons that made them sound medieval! 23 hours in darkness with a blanket on a stone floor. The American Embassy were powerless to help their citizen as he was being treated as badly as the French.

I'm pretty sure hardliners in the arabic world, who advocate cutting the hands of thieves, or people in Asia who conduct public floggings would think their system is best.

How do you define what system is "best"? Would it be the system that punishes the offender hardest, the one that reforms them most, the one that provides satisfaction of justice to the victims families or the one that acts as the biggest deterrent to crime in the first place?

I'd be interested to know how crime rates, and how reoffender rates, compare across the "civilized" world and beyond.....

Metalattakk
16-Jan-11, 11:25
The first is Gary. He was in my tutor group. He was 12 years old.

One morning I rode my bike to work, and as I approached the school I saw Gary cross the road in front of me - he smiled and said good morning. So did I - and then I went and registered my group.

He was not in school next day. They found his body behind a hoarding in Deptford High Street - he had been raped and murdered on his way back from pigeon club. They never caught who did it. He was 12.
When I think about him I still get upset and lie awake. I remember, bright as day, him crossing the road in front of me the morning of the day he died and it plays over and over in my head as I try to sleep. It will tonight.

Having read this, I had a wee google about and found this (http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/apr/29/convictions-justice-prison). A man was convicted of that crime, under what lwould ater appear to be fairly flimsy evidence (including a dubious confession).

By your reasoning this convicted man would already be dead. Would you think about that over and over in your head as you try to sleep?

Killing innocent people is wrong. No matter who they are or what they've supposedly done.

John Little
16-Jan-11, 12:02
1979.

Pre DNA.

"Killing innocent people is wrong. No matter who they are or what they've supposedly done."

My point of view entirely. Monsters murder innocents for their own gratification. If you want and insist on my thoughts on monsters and social morality then you can have them but I must ask Duck's forgiveness for drifting this thread.

If digging up the details is supposed to alter my view that Gary might be alive if a deterrent death penalty had been in place then it does not serve. It merely brings it back in more clarity; I had difficulty enough in sleeping last night as it was.

You're pretty good at this.

Try John, knifed to death in Southwark Bridge road outside the Sultan.

But I'm glad that you can see that I am not speaking from an ideological stand, or that I have paucity of argument.

I would be disappointed in the hasty judgement of anyone who thought that of me.

Metalattakk
16-Jan-11, 12:23
My point of view entirely.

Then that should be the end of it. Unless you can propose a system where every single murderer would genuinely be guilty, with no come-back, with no chance of mistakes. Otherwise, you'll be killing innocents. And as you admit, that is wrong.


If digging up the details is supposed to alter my view that Gary might be alive if a deterrent death penalty had been in place then it does not serve.

The DP is not a workable deterrent. The only people who would be deterred by it are those of rational thought, and let's face it, people who want to kill others are not part of that group.

John Little
16-Jan-11, 12:53
I do not agree. The tally of innocent deaths on one side of the equation is far too high.

Police procedures may be bad or corrupt and the justice system may be flawed. However science has moved on and we are advanced enough in forensic science to establish guilt beyond question.

Which means that the notions of first and second degree murder become realistic options.

I do not propose the ultimate state sanction on the innocent but upon the guilty.

I do not regard them as 'wayward citizens' either which is a pale euphemism for those who have stepped outside the bounds of civilised morality. And I cannot forsee some ideal future where social work and psychological care and good parenting has done away with monsters.

Until then I believe that the Garys, Clives, Stephens, and Lees of this world should have the protection of a deterrent death penalty. You say it is not a deterrent.

I say that the current situation is only sustainable by those who have become calloused to the inevitability of an annual slaughter of the innocents.

gleeber
16-Jan-11, 12:58
The important thing to remember here is that we all have our own opinions. What might seem like namby pamby ideas to some will appear like outrageous huminisms to others. Its about getting a balance. I'm grateful that Britains been at the forefront of that battle for balance and fairness, closely followed by the USA, for centuries.
Extreme views are perfectly valid but we seem to be evolving into a species that requires balance in our lives to function properly. Its not going to be easy for the two extremes to co-exist but its the way to go.
The murderer Peter Tobin changed my mind about capital punishment but I would need to be convinced that an innocent person would never be executed by mistake.

billmoseley
16-Jan-11, 13:12
how many innocent people can you find that have been hanged?

John Little
16-Jan-11, 13:14
And how many innocent people have been murdered?

billmoseley
16-Jan-11, 13:17
very good point john. i have spent the last hour trying to find the names of innocent hung peoples people and they a few and far between

John Little
16-Jan-11, 13:30
I'm given to understand that I have not thought this through. That I am some sort of right wing ideologue who wants to set up a police state. That I'm a Fascist.

What sort of morality sets up to assume that it has the high ground and forms this judgement on me?

Society is a moral concept and it functions because we have a social morality. That is to say that there is a set of acceptable codes by which we live. They are the basis of our civilisation and without them our civilisation breaks down.

In HG Well's book the Time Machine a society is envisaged in the future where a set of beautiful and privileged people live on the surface and enjoy all that is good in life. Under the ground are the Morlocks- a fearsome breed evolved from the working class - they appear to eat the surface dwellers. The surface dwellers accept it as inevitable - it is an unavoidable part of life. Like the plague, or cancer.

But murder is committed by individuals overstepping social morality.

Murder is choice.

Individuals have morality too - but morality is made up of components and in some these components are undeveloped. Our society is too large and complex to attend to developing the moral component of every single individual in it, so to address anti-social behaviour we evolve laws.

Fear of the law's penalties to supposed to deter. Certainly in some cases it does not deter.

But to the rational mind the presence of a death penalty might stop that knife being picked up and carried in the pocket. And without the knife there can be no spur of the moment stabbing.

Tell me I am wrong to think advocating absence of the ultimate penalty no justification of a high moral position.

It's mere nihilism.

There is no moral high ground here - there is only outrage.

And- as you may gather - I have thought it through. But you may have your point of view. I base mine on what I know.

There is no monopoly on truth.

Not even yours.

ducati
16-Jan-11, 13:37
While we're on the subject of outrage, why not go the whole hog and recruit outraged citizens to stone murderers to death?:mad:

squidge
16-Jan-11, 13:39
Guilt beyond question.

Once confessions were thought to do that
Lie detectors
Fingerprints

And yet questions can be raised about all of the above.

Those people in favour of the death penalty might feel that the occasional miscarriage of justice is a small price to pay for the reduction of murder of our children. In the cold light of day that's ok unless it is you or yours that is facing the death penalty for something you did not do.

I don't know what turns people into murderers... Few people do. But I do Think that the breakdown in society has meant we no longer care about other people or value them. If our life is worth nothing to anyone then howdo we value others?

John Little
16-Jan-11, 13:40
While we're on the subject of outrage, why not go the whole hog and recruit outraged citizens to stone murderers to death?:mad:

Why don't you make a serious suggestion?

That answers nothing I have said and seeks to reduce to the absurd.

John Little
16-Jan-11, 13:42
Guilt beyond question.

Once confessions were thought to do that
Lie detectors
Fingerprints

And yet questions can be raised about all of the above.


I don't know what turns people into murderers... Few people do. But I do Think that the breakdown in society has meant we no longer care about other people or value them. If our life is worth nothing to anyone then howdo we value others?


I agree. Which is why our only recourse is to law.

To me, our current law tolerates the intolerable.

mike.mckenzie
16-Jan-11, 13:54
Can't say I agree with the death penalty in the slightest. From a punsihment perspective, for extremely serious / heinous crimes, the death penalty seems to be an easy way out for the people perpetrating them. They've had a release form the moral prison, the guilt and the reponsibility of paying their due for the crimes they have committed. How frustrating was it for the families of Fred West to see that he managed to release himself from the moral obligation to his victims and their families' need for closure in the form of punishment and justice? I know he took the decision to end his life himself, but if we were a nation that used the death penalty, he would have been sentenced to death for his crimes, given the release of death he craved, with a relatively short period of paying for the crimes he committed. To draw a comparison, look at Ian Brady - a disgusting, unrepentant criminal craving death. He hasn't eaten for years in an attempt to end his life. He is fed via tube, against his will - all he wants is to die as an escape form the miserable existence he has created for himself. He is being made to pay for the crimes he committed.

ducati
16-Jan-11, 14:18
Why don't you make a serious suggestion?

That answers nothing I have said and seeks to reduce to the absurd.

My serious suggestion is to leave things be. No modern society that retains the death penalty can shake it's medieavil routes.

A state that kills it's crimminals is moraly bankrupt and so are it's people-In my opinion.

Metalattakk
16-Jan-11, 14:47
I agree. Which is why our only recourse is to law.

To me, our current law tolerates the intolerable.

So you'd rather go the whole hog and kill convicted murderers (note, not guilty murderers) rather than change the current law to one whereby they would spend the rest of their lives, with no chance of parole, behind bars?

On the one hand you say that killing innocents is wrong, and on the other you want to kill people who could possibly be innocent? Hypocrisy abounds.

I agree the law is lax at the moment. But life in prison meaning the rest of their life in prison would work just as well as your perceived death penalty deterrent. Or can you prove me wrong?

sandyr1
16-Jan-11, 15:18
Thats a big comment to make. Who are "WE?"

The justice systems in the USA and Britain for example are VERY different. You don't often hear of people getting sentenced to 99 years in prison in Britain, and the USA obviously has the death penalty in some states.

I remember reading a book (catch me if you can - worth a look, far better than the film) that included a section about French prisons that made them sound medieval! 23 hours in darkness with a blanket on a stone floor. The American Embassy were powerless to help their citizen as he was being treated as badly as the French.

I'm pretty sure hardliners in the arabic world, who advocate cutting the hands of thieves, or people in Asia who conduct public floggings would think their system is best.

How do you define what system is "best"? Would it be the system that punishes the offender hardest, the one that reforms them most, the one that provides satisfaction of justice to the victims families or the one that acts as the biggest deterrent to crime in the first place?

I'd be interested to know how crime rates, and how reoffender rates, compare across the "civilized" world and beyond.....[/QUOTE]

We in the 'Western World' do not flog, cut of hands and kill people without chance of Appeal etc.
Yes, in the US some States do have the Death Penalty, but that only comes into effect perhaps 10-20 years after conviction, thus the chance of Appeal is pretty well run out. And they do have 99 year and more lengthy sentences. Not everything is lead by the almighty United States. Here in Canada our Laws are pretty well the same as the UK.
And the 'best system' is one that incorporates the 'best' of the matters you stated.
I think one has to be careful reading 'statistics'. They can be made to lie!

Corrie 3
16-Jan-11, 15:45
Well, we are supposed to be coming up with 101 ways to make Britain better but we are stuck on the Hanging debate.........:eek:

I propose we move on...No.11 (I think)....;)

Build more social housing so as to give youngsters a fighting chance when they start a Family.

C3.......:)

sandyr1
16-Jan-11, 15:50
Why would Social Housing help.... Isn`t that part of the problem.
If people cannot afford what they have, why put evertone else in debt......Someone has to pay for the `Social System`.

Corrie 3
16-Jan-11, 15:53
Why would Social Housing help.... Isn`t that part of the problem.
If people cannot afford what they have, why put evertone else in debt......Someone has to pay for the `Social System`.
Because Sandy, good hard working people who are stuck on the minimum wage in Britain have no chance of ever buying their own place. They need a house of their own if they are going to succeed in marriage and bringing up the next generation.

C3....

mike.mckenzie
16-Jan-11, 15:58
Government student loan style loans to help first time buyers get on the property ladder. Deposits of 10% nowadays, with property values the way they are, are just about unobtainable for most people trying to buy a home. A low interest made for purpose government supplied loan would go a long way to ensuring everyone's right to a house. Also, we as citizens of the UK have a vested interest in certain banks following the bail outs. This would go a long way to restoring confidence in the banking system.

sandyr1
16-Jan-11, 16:03
Because Sandy, good hard working people who are stuck on the minimum wage in Britain have no chance of ever buying their own place. They need a house of their own if they are going to succeed in marriage and bringing up the next generation.

C3....

I guess they would have to do what I did....Wait until they could afford it....I did.
Social housing-assistance is not free. All Social programs have to be paid for by someone.

sandyr1
16-Jan-11, 16:07
Government student loan style loans to help first time buyers get on the property ladder. Deposits of 10% nowadays, with property values the way they are, are just about unobtainable for most people trying to buy a home. A low interest made for purpose government supplied loan would go a long way to ensuring everyone's right to a house. Also, we as citizens of the UK have a vested interest in certain banks following the bail outs. This would go a long way to restoring confidence in the banking system.

Then housing prices have to come down and they will. I even see it on this site.
All Countries are in for an adjustment.
Housing prices in the Uk shot up....what doubled-tripled in 10 years or so. We must come back to reality
North America is the same.....We have all been living beyond our means!

billmoseley
16-Jan-11, 16:10
do you know what's good about Britain is that we have the freedom to debate things. maybe we should look at what we have and be thankful. yes Britain has it's short falls but by and large we are not so bad off compared to other countries.

mike.mckenzie
16-Jan-11, 16:12
Then housing prices have to come down and they will. I even see it on this site.
All Countries are in for an adjustment.
Housing prices in the Uk shot up....what doubled-tripled in 10 years or so. We must come back to reality
North America is the same.....We have all been living beyond our means!

They're coming down...we've lost 40k off the value of our house since we bought it, admittedly it was hugely overpriced when we got it and the deposit was paid as part of the deal (new build). We're desperate to get out of it but there's no market even at the vastly reduced price. Whne I come to re-mortgage, we're going to go interest only until I sell it and let it out, renting a bigger house in the meantime.

sandyr1
16-Jan-11, 16:15
do you know what's good about Britain is that we have the freedom to debate things. maybe we should look at what we have and be thankful. yes Britain has it's short falls but by and large we are not so bad off compared to other countries.

Yes so true....Many of the people around the World want to be like us and live like us.

billmoseley
16-Jan-11, 16:32
and to add a lighter note to this thread. how about free fish and chips for everyone on a Friday night?

mike.mckenzie
16-Jan-11, 16:38
Jamie Oliver would hunt you down for that suggestion.

billmoseley
16-Jan-11, 16:42
Jamie Oliver would hunt you down for that suggestion.
let him try. a little bit of what you fancy does you good

bekisman
16-Jan-11, 17:17
I can fully understand John Little and his feelings on Capital Punishment. One of my best mates in the Army, (who left and via the Australian Army went onto Surrey Police); PC John Schofield, was murdered on 6th July 1974 by Egon Von Bulow. He was caught and given life imprisonment.. As far as I know he has spent 35 years in prison. This punishment is no equal for the death of my friend. But on balance, it could have been just a few years in prison, followed by a short drop to oblivion, put to sleep, gone.. i.e. he would know nothing of it..at peace.

It could be argued that not carrying out capital punishment is more humane; we don't descend to their level, it's barbaric..
In 1966 Ian Brady and Myra Hindley were sentenced to life imprisonment - Hindley has gone, but as a poster on here has mentioned Brady is trying to kill himself, he is being force-fed.. he has spent 45 years in prison, do we call this humane?
I personally am against the ultimate sanction, as long as 'life imprisonment' does in fact mean Whole Life Orders, and not some piffling 11 years, whilst 30 years was awarded to Ronnie Biggs, Gordon Goody, Jim Hussey, Roy James, Charlie Wilson and Thomas Wisbey for stealing..

The effects of abolition on the murder rate. According to the Home Office Report (Murder 1957-1968) the murder rate in England and Wales steadily increased after the passing of the 1957 Act and further accelerated after suspension (effective abolition) of capital punishment in 1965. It continued to increase and in the 21st century has reached over 900 a year by 2004.

The Death Penalty can only be restored it if we withdraw from the Council of Europe.

Call me callous, but put murders in jail for the rest of their lives; let them know they will never bee released, that they will die in prison..

sandyr1
16-Jan-11, 17:23
I do not agree. The tally of innocent deaths on one side of the equation is far too high.

Police procedures may be bad or corrupt and the justice system may be flawed. However science has moved on and we are advanced enough in forensic science to establish guilt beyond question.

Which means that the notions of first and second degree murder become realistic options.

I do not propose the ultimate state sanction on the innocent but upon the guilty.

I do not regard them as 'wayward citizens' either which is a pale euphemism for those who have stepped outside the bounds of civilised morality. And I cannot forsee some ideal future where social work and psychological care and good parenting has done away with monsters.

Until then I believe that the Garys, Clives, Stephens, and Lees of this world should have the protection of a deterrent death penalty. You say it is not a deterrent.

I say that the current situation is only sustainable by those who have become calloused to the inevitability of an annual slaughter of the innocents.

In Canada we have First and Second Degree Murder, altho' no Death Penalty.
And I find it odd that you again refer to Police procedures as being bad or corrupt, and the Justice System Flawed. Are not the Police the Public, and the Public the Police...circa 1829., as such, being Human beings. And those who voted in the Gov't., who made the Laws perhaps should do something about it.
And there is No Guilt beyond Question...It is Guilt beyond a Reasonable Doubt! And that means 'A set of facts or circumstances, which would make a person of normal Care and Judgement have a strong belief'. It could be the Judge alone or a Judge and Jury.
We here are still a Colony, but have changed things slightly......perhaps for the better....who knows. People are still people, and wherever they are will be Humans with frailities~!
**************Squidge in my opinion, has the best answers......back to the basics.

theone
16-Jan-11, 18:44
We in the 'Western World' do not flog, cut of hands and kill people without chance of Appeal etc.
Yes, in the US some States do have the Death Penalty, but that only comes into effect perhaps 10-20 years after conviction, thus the chance of Appeal is pretty well run out. And they do have 99 year and more lengthy sentences. Not everything is lead by the almighty United States. Here in Canada our Laws are pretty well the same as the UK.
And the 'best system' is one that incorporates the 'best' of the matters you stated.
I think one has to be careful reading 'statistics'. They can be made to lie!

I don't deny our (UK) system is more lenient and compassionate, but I'm not sure our system incorporates the best of what I said earlier. I certainly don't think the families of murder victims feel justice has been done with the short sentences often handed out, and I think it's a failing that sentences for stealing money or property are often far longer than for those of murder.

As for the statistics, I couldn't agree more!

theone
16-Jan-11, 18:50
Why would Social Housing help.... Isn`t that part of the problem.
If people cannot afford what they have, why put evertone else in debt......Someone has to pay for the `Social System`.

Yes, but what I see on this forum and elsewhere is the public screaming for more while wanting to pay less. Good examples are the snow ploughs/gritters and council bin collections. People complain of poor service or cuts but then demand taxes are frozen.

The social system is a crippling expense on the country but to make wholesale cuts would be political suicide.

theone
16-Jan-11, 18:56
Then housing prices have to come down and they will. I even see it on this site.


Of course.

The house price system in Britain is currently (and was previously) like a pyramid scheme. Those who got in early made a fortune when everyone else joined in, but as time goes by the amount of new "entrants" with the cash required dwindles.

Most banks currently loan 3.5 times annual salary for a mortgage. The average wage is around 25k, therefore it makes sense that the average house price should be 3.5 times this, just under 90k. Even assuming joint incomes the average should be 180k.

I think the average house price is currently 240k. I'm no economist, but it's easy to see that the figures don't add up.

sandyr1
16-Jan-11, 18:59
I don't deny our (UK) system is more lenient and compassionate, but I'm not sure our system incorporates the best of what I said earlier. I certainly don't think the families of murder victims feel justice has been done with the short sentences often handed out, and I think it's a failing that sentences for stealing money or property are often far longer than for those of murder.

As for the statistics, I couldn't agree more!

I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately Victims never feel that 'Justice' has been done.
It seems here(Canada),the saturation point with the Court System has been reached. Property crimes and particularly Matrimonial cases are sent to Tribunals, outisde the Court System.
Someone I know is a Superior Court Judge, and many people think he is a Bleeding Heart! He sees good in all but a small number of people. BUT...when a Judge sends someone to Prison there has to be a 'hole' for them to go to...I mean somewhere they can be accomodated, so it not all Black and White.
Just take this fellow in the US who bought the Gun and then the Bullets at Walmart! We are a people who make mistakes, and get some things wrong. Even those Leaders with all their Advisors.

sandyr1
16-Jan-11, 19:08
Yes, but what I see on this forum and elsewhere is the public screaming for more while wanting to pay less. Good examples are the snow ploughs/gritters and council bin collections. People complain of poor service or cuts but then demand taxes are frozen.

The social system is a crippling expense on the country but to make wholesale cuts would be political suicide.

Yes M. T......But somewhere things have to be cut. We apparently fared well during this recesssion, but we are also 'under the knife'.
I just read that a further deficit of One Trillion Pounds has been found in the UK finances! All Countries have been 'adjusting' their Books........

BTW. I see a house on the Org that was priced at 370,000 pounds has been reduced to 240K pounds! (The Q is...was it ever worth the original amount)?
I see the problem as with previous 'recessions' there were people with money, even in bad times, who at this point would be buying up properties....This time it is different/ these people it seems, do not have the cash!

redeyedtreefrog
16-Jan-11, 21:25
Society is a moral concept and it functions because we have a social morality.

Social morality of killing people who might be innocent?




Anyway, #12: Increase science research funding. Science is pretty much the only thing Britain's good at, and we won't stay at the top without pumping money into it.

Angel
16-Jan-11, 21:40
If everyone took responsibility for thier action then problem solved... Stonger penalties and less goody goodies...

Angel...

The Drunken Duck
17-Jan-11, 11:55
For goodness sake....how does no one get this. How is it so hard to understand. Drunken Duck all the things you say in your lengthy email are about dealing with the effects not the causes. Contrary to what you seem to think I am not some woolly minded soft touch. I have brought boys up to be lovely young men with jobs and manners. I know fine well how to instill discipline, I believe in smacking and I take no nonsense with drink drugs or nasty unpleasant little mates. I do not think people should get away with crime but I wouldn't hang someone for murder or for shoplifting. I believe everyone should get a fair crack at life
without being disadvantaged by the very system that is supposed to look after them.
Your post deals with the effects of the mess we are in not NOT the causes. As long as no one tackles the causes then the whole thing will continue.
I'm not talking about throwing money at the care system but even you can see it's not working. The blog you put me onto talks about a system that instills no discipline or sense of self worth in young people. How is that acceptable? How is it that 75% of kids in care don't get any qualifications? Are you suggesting these kids are beyond help? Or 75% of
them are too thick to get qualifications? What about the homeless stats 25% end up homeless and the spiral of drugs,alcohol abuse, unemployment, violence and so on continues.

Tackle the causes that lead to this and you may stop this spiral for some kids. Wait till they batter someone and end up in prison and you don't prevent the same thing happening to Another kid.

None of these kids talked about on that blog were born bad. At some time they learned to behave like that. Either because they are just bullying nasty individuals or because their father kept them in a shed. Don't smile... That was a real case of a real boy who's dad made him live in the shed because his gf didn't want to be bothered with him. He
was 11.

Aside from the care system...things are going wrong at a fundamental level and society has to have the will to fix them. Stamping our feet and shooting all those who get it wrong just creates a space for another
wasted life. It does nothing to change the things that caused the problem In the first place. Your methods won't solve anything because all they do is punish. Woolly fluffy stuff won't solve anything either but
a combination of both and a recognition that unless we create a society that cares we are lost and wemmight just start to change things.

Oh I am sorry Squidge. What would I know about it being a product of the care system and then working with these kids ??, is Winston Smith wrong in his blog ??, I know who I believe as he WORKS in that environment. You have missed the point entirely, he is saying that the system does not allow the people working in it to help these kids. It is geared to make every excuse for their behaviour and allow them to act like they do. Instilling discipline is verboten in that world.

What I am trying to say is that there are people like you standing behind these kids saying all the guff you did. Because the one thing you dont address is the fact that they have been absolved of their responsibility because they are allowed to blame what they do on someone or something else. And they are laughing thier asses off at people like you. I know, I saw it for myself. You have utterly missed the point made by Winston Smith, you say that is a system that instill no discipline or sense of self in thes individuals ??, there is a reason for that. The system does not allow discipline to be imposed on them !!, and without it how can you get a person to value themselves in a system that allows them to do what they want ??, I was utterly powerless to discipline any of those kids .. and they knew it. Until you tighten the nut on them and show them their actions have consequences they will abuse the system while people like yourself blame it all on these mysterious "causes". Last time I checked we weren't robots and all have free will. Are you seriously saying that the 18 year old lad who spat in my face because I dared to suggest that knuckling down and getting some qualifications might improve his lot should be excused his actions because his dad walked out on him when he was six ?? .. seriously, get a grip. I had serious physical and mental abuse as a kid, relatives tried to adopt me and when I joined up at 16 I was told by my stepfather that if I failed not to come back. Boo Hoo. The causes are ALWAYS going to be there, you are living in a dream world if you think you can sort that out. What we can do is teach people to be better than what they were, to teach them to overcome and adapt. That breeds character and instills confidence, with that the world is your oyster. But you have to be ALLOWED to do that. Something the system does not permit these days. Read the blog and you will see that, and the frustration it causes to someone who genuinely wants to help. Sitting back and making excuses solves nothing and allows people to drown in self pity and a lot will happily do so. Failure isn't getting knocked down in life, its staying down and refusing to get up and conquer your problems. My point is we cant do that today because there is always someone to stand behind you and make excuses. As long as that goes on we are powerless.

I left because I had had enough of putting in effort to help them and getting abused and ridiculed by kids who had the same advantages that others had at school but crapped them away. Then they were rewarded for it to the tune of 55 a week that the kids who had knuckled down and worked hard at school did not get. I have since seen one of the loudmouthed little gits who would happily be abusive to me in class. He had just turned 18 and was in the pub. As he walked past he called me an obscenity, he was then asked to step outside and repeat it. He then suddenly lost his attitude and declared that I was the one hassling him. It escaped him that if he had said nothing I would not be standing in front of him. That's it in a nutshell, their attitude is that they can do what they want and if you object then you are the problem !! .. still its probably not his fault, maybe his dad was an alcoholic eh ??

And on a personal level .. not happy with your "dont smile" comment. Did you think i would find that funny ??, I spent two stints in care between a mother and stepfather so abusive emotionally and pyhsically to me that my relatives tried to adopt me. I joined the military to get away from home, and I made that decision at about 12. I thought bruises were something every kid had. Basic Training was a breeze for me compared to my homelife. So I dont find that case funny. But neither do I think its an excuse for behaving like a spoiled brat later in life. If anything it should be motivation to better yourself. I had a quote given to me by a teacher long ago, he knew my home situation and was trying to educate about me about self pity in hindsight, I still have the paper he wrote it on and it says it all really .. "I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself", its by D H Lawrence. I have lived my life by that and gone far. I will happily bend over backwards to help those who want it but those who want to live in the past and blame their woes on others can go do one in my view.

squidge
17-Jan-11, 13:22
Drunken duck You say I have missed the point but you completely misunderstand what I am saying. Nothing that I say is about allowing kids to behave the way we describe and get away with it. The fact that the care system doesn't instill discipline and self worth is it's failure Andit needs to change so that kids are disciplined and learn to take responsibility. Parents who can't set boundaries, can't discipline their kids need to be shown how to do that. Kids who get caught committing crimes need to be made to face their victims understand the results of their action and take responsibility for it. People like me???? You think that because I see dealing with the cause of the problem as the solution
then I just want to let everyone off and give them a hug? The kids that behaved so badly to you LEARNED that they could get away with it and that has to change. Children at primary school cannot be allowed to learn that they can get results from behaviour like that. The thing is drunken duck that your solutions simply deal with the results not the
causes. You have to do both to get results and change things. Unless as a society we take responsibility for all these kids and CHANGE things in 20 years we will still be having this conversation. Read your blog, that's exactly what winston says. The system fails the kids because it allows them to learn they get results from being horrible and not taking
responsibility. That has to change or we will have failed some of the
most vulnerable members of society... Kids in danger.

Oh, and on a personal note, you are to be respected and commended for your successes after a difficult start. I have never once suggested you don't know what you are talking about. I don't know you and I would never make such assumptions. I would like you to afford me
the same courtesy.

You talked about a teacher who helped to instill discipline and self worth in you and the military service that moulded you. Not everyone gets that or the same opportunities. Not all kids have your strength. As a society we should not just say "well that's too bad for them" and wash our hands of it... We should be looking to ensure as many children as possible grow up to live productive lives by making their start in life as good as it can be.

I think we are pretty much saying similar things here DD but from different angles.

neilsermk1
17-Jan-11, 13:44
Why should the forces support a national service scheme to get respect back from youngsters. Instilling respect is a parental duty, and generally ignored from what I see. Dont forget "monkey see, monkey do"

oldmarine
17-Jan-11, 20:06
I liked Britain the way it was the last time I was there. No need for change for me.

Walter Ego
17-Jan-11, 21:39
I lost money tonight when Baltimore were eliminated from the NFL playoffs. Luckily, I just won it all back in a bet on how long it would take someone to mention the Daily Mail on this thread. Many thanks Amigo!!

Always glad to be of service.;)

Penelope Pitstop
18-Jan-11, 11:59
While we're on the subject of outrage, why not go the whole hog and recruit outraged citizens to stone murderers to death?:mad:

Unfortunately, I would imagine that the cost to the tax payer for post traumatic stress disorder councilling for the "outraged citizens" would probably outweigh the cost of keeping the murders in prison!

SunnyChick
18-Jan-11, 12:14
I would make the first day of every month the "act of kindness" day!

It would be a day where everone must show a small kindness to everyone they meed (hugging optional). The day would be dedicated to doing all the little thoughtful, helpful, kind things we just don't make enough time for in our everyday lives.

scorrie
18-Jan-11, 19:14
Always glad to be of service.;)

When the guy saw your name, he paid out without reading the post ;)

orkneycadian
21-Jan-11, 17:26
Back to the original concept of the thread.....

Give folk the right to take responsibility for themselves if they want to. (aside from the matter of forcing them to!) - If someone wants to buy home made produce thats not made in accordance with this weeks daft health and hygiene regulations emanating from Brussels, then they should be able to. Bung a yellow sticker on such produce that says "May not be produced in accordance with current regulations" and let the public decide. If they get food poisioning, then its their own fault. If however, they get some locally produced food that tastes far better than the homogonised rubbish they get in the supermarkets thats been hauled 10,000 miles, so much the better.

Corrie 3
21-Jan-11, 17:37
Get rid of this "Marry a Muslim or Die" attitude as illustrated on this link. There is no place for this in Britain !!

C3.....:(

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-12248091

oldmarine
22-Jan-11, 19:04
Get rid of this "Marry a Muslim or Die" attitude as illustrated on this link. There is no place for this in Britain !!

C3.....:(
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-12248091

I agree with Corrie's comment. Not all Muslims are terrorists and those who are not terrorists should be treated with respect regardless whether in Britain or where ever.

piratelassie
25-Jan-11, 01:39
How to improve Britain? BREAK IT UP.