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golach
08-Jan-11, 23:37
I just do not understand the gun culture of the USA, this to me is shocking

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/918572--congresswoman-shot-at-least-5-killed?bn=1

bagpuss
08-Jan-11, 23:48
but remove a citizen's right to bear arms.........

sandyr1
09-Jan-11, 03:21
To us in Canada it is also disturbing.....
Casper, Wyoming........Man drives into Town with 2 rifles and a shotgun in the back window of the pickup truck.
Gets out. Wearing Jeans, and harris tweed jacket..gun belt with a 38 calibre bull barrel revolver with perhaps 40 cartridges around
the belt. Wears it over his jacket.....offence to wear it under/concealed then!
Normal behaviour. Go to the Hilton Hotel bar....gun belts are hung up outside the area they sell the liquor in. Cannot take a gun in where
booze is being sold.....Speak to the female Manager. Joking... say I guess you don't have a gun. She pulls out a 2 shot Derringer from her
boot!
Different States have different Regs. Yes it is strange to me and stranger to people from the UK ....but... Charlton Heston...Ben Hur.... was
their main spokesperson before he died. How can you argue!
Police Officers from around the World gathered there...All paraded in their Dress/Ceremonial Uniforms...Jeans, cowboy boots, plaid shirt with
their sidearm, riding a horse with a 30-30 rifle in a scabbard on the horse....for a number of US States.
It is their 'rite to bear arms'.

chordie
09-Jan-11, 10:04
What's more shocking is that the media is more focused on one woman who survived than the 5 who didn't.

sids
09-Jan-11, 11:51
Wearing Jeans, and harris tweed jacket..'.

That really is a bit of a shock!

Anfield
09-Jan-11, 13:58
You reap what you sow.
Whilst the USA has such a stupid and crass gun control system, events like this will continue to happen.
Even if they prohibited the sale of any more guns, there are so many guns in the USA to ensure that there will be many many repetitions of mass shootings such as this

sandyr1
09-Jan-11, 15:55
You reap what you sow.
Whilst the USA has such a stupid and crass gun control system, events like this will continue to happen.
Even if they prohibited the sale of any more guns, there are so many guns in the USA to ensure that there will be many many repetitions of mass shootings such as this

Perhaps you should make suggestions, rather than slag a system you know nothing about...Who is stooopid!
They have 350 M people with a porous Border to Mexico, and you know what goes on there..Yes it could be better, but the UK.... and OK.... Canada all have their problems.

billmoseley
09-Jan-11, 16:11
it seems that no matter how many controls you have on fire arms if someone wants a weapon enough they will get hold of one even here in the uk. alas this will probably won't be the last time we see such shootings

peter macdonald
09-Jan-11, 16:11
From todays Guardian ....
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/jan/09/usa-arizona
Very scary stuff....... especially the Palin references ..remember this loony was almost vice president of the USA

sandyr1
09-Jan-11, 16:16
From todays Guardian ....
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/jan/09/usa-arizona
Very scary stuff....... especially the Palin references ..remember this loony was almost vice president of the USA

Gosh P....Is she a looney??? Because she has a different view...I dunno where this all comes from.

sandyr1
09-Jan-11, 16:20
it seems that no matter how many controls you have on fire arms if someone wants a weapon enough they will get hold of one even here in the uk. alas this will probably won't be the last time we see such shootings

Yes so very true....The whole World has seen this go on...Is it there are more shootings nowadays or is it the Media who profile it more....for ratings!
Our area... 1250 sq miles/ population 700,000, had 3 Sexuals Assaults over a period of 6 months, and one newspaper said we had a serial Rapist...but 2 were not rapes!

Anfield
09-Jan-11, 17:12
Perhaps you should make suggestions, rather than slag a system you know nothing about...Who is stooopid!
They have 350 M people with a porous Border to Mexico, and you know what goes on there..Yes it could be better, but the UK.... and OK.... Canada all have their problems.

What has the border with Mexico got to do with the price of fish?
You dont need to smuggle guns in from Mexico, they are there, in the thousands of shops selling "weapoms of mass destruction" to anyone who wants one.

ducati
09-Jan-11, 17:21
Well if the UK with its tight gun controls can't avoid giving a licence to looneys.........

redeyedtreefrog
09-Jan-11, 21:41
The guy was deemed too unstable to join the army, too unstable to stay at the college which he attended, but stable enough to be able to buy a machine specifically designed to kill or maim another human.


http://images3.makefive.com/images/entertainment/other/visual-puns/bear-arms-7.jpg

orkneycadian
09-Jan-11, 23:06
Very roughly (from some quick Googling and mentally averaging the immediate results that come back....), Between 3 and 4 times the number of people who die in the USA per year as a result of firearms, die in the UK from smoking. Bearing in mind the population of the USA is something like 4 times that of the UK, deaths from firearms in the USA is a piddling statistic compared to deaths from smoking in the UK.

Apparantly, the majority of the firearm deaths in the USA are suicides (reportedly about 2/3 of the total). It could be suggested that smoking is a similar form of "self euthanasia...."

So if USA deaths from firearms are shocking, and the death rate in the UK from smoking is something like 12-16 times per capita then surely there must be a case for an outright ban on smoking in the UK as from midnight tonight?

Perspective.

Mystical Potato Head
10-Jan-11, 00:20
Very roughly (from some quick Googling and mentally averaging the immediate results that come back....), Between 3 and 4 times the number of people who die in the USA per year as a result of firearms, die in the UK from smoking. Bearing in mind the population of the USA is something like 4 times that of the UK, deaths from firearms in the USA is a piddling statistic compared to deaths from smoking in the UK.

Apparantly, the majority of the firearm deaths in the USA are suicides (reportedly about 2/3 of the total). It could be suggested that smoking is a similar form of "self euthanasia...."

So if USA deaths from firearms are shocking, and the death rate in the UK from smoking is something like 12-16 times per capita then surely there must be a case for an outright ban on smoking in the UK as from midnight tonight?

Perspective.

I'm surprised the news channels haven't picked up on this,its a marvelous example of reasoning.

brandy
10-Jan-11, 00:31
it was only a few months ago in england that a man went on a killing spree.. with a gun.. that led to a chase and eventually his death.. what was the total number of deaths there again?
gun laws often do not matter.. the good guys very rarely have guns.. and its the baddies that have the weapons.
even people that do have guns thru proper channels.. which in the states is a large number.. how many of them per capita do you see committing violent crimes?
the most often you hear about is heat of passion crimes.. which lest face it.. here in wick.. there have been prg. women having an axe taken to them by boyfriend.. stabbings... swords... and even women taking a razon from a disposable razor and slashing another woman in front of both their respective children.. on a street that had loads of other children about playing. now all this is in a town of just over 7000 people. also in the past months.. so moral of the story is.. people should look to their own doors first before they get all uppity about whats going on in other places and stop looking down their noses at everything.

theone
10-Jan-11, 01:04
Very roughly (from some quick Googling and mentally averaging the immediate results that come back....), Between 3 and 4 times the number of people who die in the USA per year as a result of firearms, die in the UK from smoking. Bearing in mind the population of the USA is something like 4 times that of the UK, deaths from firearms in the USA is a piddling statistic compared to deaths from smoking in the UK.

Apparantly, the majority of the firearm deaths in the USA are suicides (reportedly about 2/3 of the total). It could be suggested that smoking is a similar form of "self euthanasia...."

So if USA deaths from firearms are shocking, and the death rate in the UK from smoking is something like 12-16 times per capita then surely there must be a case for an outright ban on smoking in the UK as from midnight tonight?

Perspective.

Excellent post.

The only problem with perspective is that it continues to be outdone by hype, hysteria and scaremongering.

Sensible statistics don't sell newspapers or increase viewer ratings.

Bazeye
10-Jan-11, 03:17
Very roughly (from some quick Googling and mentally averaging the immediate results that come back....), Between 3 and 4 times the number of people who die in the USA per year as a result of firearms, die in the UK from smoking. Bearing in mind the population of the USA is something like 4 times that of the UK, deaths from firearms in the USA is a piddling statistic compared to deaths from smoking in the UK.

Apparantly, the majority of the firearm deaths in the USA are suicides (reportedly about 2/3 of the total). It could be suggested that smoking is a similar form of "self euthanasia...."

So if USA deaths from firearms are shocking, and the death rate in the UK from smoking is something like 12-16 times per capita then surely there must be a case for an outright ban on smoking in the UK as from midnight tonight?

Perspective.

Too much revenue lost for that though.

sandyr1
10-Jan-11, 03:42
What has the border with Mexico got to do with the price of fish?
You dont need to smuggle guns in from Mexico, they are there, in the thousands of shops selling "weapoms of mass destruction" to anyone who wants one.

I am trying to lead you by the hand and explain life to you.
Unfortunately you are not open minded enough to understand. And the price of fish...A wee bitty smelly to me!
Weapons of Mass destruction.....Oh Gawd! You have been watching too much George W Bush magic.
What else can I say...other than Michael Stone was convicted....read all about it.....

Aaldtimer
10-Jan-11, 04:06
What has the border with Mexico got to do with the price of fish?
You dont need to smuggle guns in from Mexico, they are there, in the thousands of shops selling "weapoms of mass destruction" to anyone who wants one.

Actually, I think there was a recent complaint from the Mexican government that there were too many imports of arms from the US!:eek:

sandyr1
10-Jan-11, 04:15
Actually, I think there was a recent complaint from the Mexican government that there were too many imports of arms from the US!:eek:

Methinks you understand......in addition, it is not really the Firearm...it is the person who controls the firearm.
Yes it is an awful problem, but which came first the Chicken or the Egg.
Firearms into Mexico/ Drugs out of Mexico.....
If there was no demand for Drugs would there be a need for weapons...It is a total mess.

In Canada nowadays there is a fairly strict prohibition on guns...Apply for a permit to possess, carry etc etc.
But you can go and buy a 'Saturday night special' on the street corner if you have the cash.....
A sawed off 22 rifle, a starters pistol which has been converted or a stolen gun......Not too difficult...So the good guys don't have any and the bad guys can get a gun when required.....I said it is a mess.....Yes it is!

Anfield
10-Jan-11, 12:32
Very roughly (from some quick Googling and mentally averaging the immediate results that come back....), Between 3 and 4 times the number of people who die in the USA per year as a result of firearms, die in the UK from smoking. Bearing in mind the population of the USA is something like 4 times that of the UK, deaths from firearms in the USA is a piddling statistic compared to deaths from smoking in the UK.

Why are you comparing deaths by smoking in UK with deaths by shooting in the USA? Am I missing something here.
As you are using statistics let us try this one:
The deaths per per 100,000 (excluding suicide) for gun crime in USA (http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF01.htm) is 3.98, the rate in the UK is 0.15. Therefore you are 27 times more likely to be killed in USA by a gunman than in the UK which, given your figures of UK/USA population is quite shocking to say the least



I am trying to lead you by the hand and explain life to you.
Weapons of Mass destruction.....Oh Gawd! You have been watching too much George W Bush magic.

I will pass on your offer to take me by the hand and talk about WMD, look what happened the last time someone from your continent did that to a UK citizen, tens of thousands of people dead including both UK soldiers and innocent civillians.

bekisman
10-Jan-11, 13:30
There's a lot of chatter about the 'terrible US' and their murders with guns; it's the most violent country on the planet.. Bit of an eye opener, makes interesting reading: http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html

"Gun death" statistics are frequently cited, in the manner above, to strongly suggest that guns are the cause behind the high violent death rate in the U.S. As in the case of the Los Angeles Times article, no mention is made that over half of those violent deaths are suicides. The CNN article mentions gun homicides and gun suicides, but fails to show us the total violent death rate of other countries, not just gun deaths. For example, in Japan, where gun ownership is rare, its total suicide rate is higher than the US total suicide rate.


Combining gun suicide and homicide deaths creates a sensational comparison with other countries, but only clouds and distorts the many factors actually behind violent death rates. Looking at only gun deaths, it is easy to get the false impression that, because of guns, the United States is the most violent country on earth. Rather than being the "league leader" in violent death rates, as the sensational and misleading media reports suggest when focusing exclusively on guns, though the U.S. is still high, its violent death rate is not orders of magnitude higher than other countries.

sandyr1
10-Jan-11, 15:20
I will pass on your offer to take me by the hand and talk about WMD, look what happened the last time someone from your continent did that to a UK citizen, tens of thousands of people dead including both UK soldiers and innocent civillians.[/QUOTE]

Poor old Donald Trump gets the blame again.....Oh dear~!

sandyr1
10-Jan-11, 15:22
There's a lot of chatter about the 'terrible US' and their murders with guns; it's the most violent country on the planet.. Bit of an eye opener, makes interesting reading: http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html

"Gun death" statistics are frequently cited, in the manner above, to strongly suggest that guns are the cause behind the high violent death rate in the U.S. As in the case of the Los Angeles Times article, no mention is made that over half of those violent deaths are suicides. The CNN article mentions gun homicides and gun suicides, but fails to show us the total violent death rate of other countries, not just gun deaths. For example, in Japan, where gun ownership is rare, its total suicide rate is higher than the US total suicide rate.


Combining gun suicide and homicide deaths creates a sensational comparison with other countries, but only clouds and distorts the many factors actually behind violent death rates. Looking at only gun deaths, it is easy to get the false impression that, because of guns, the United States is the most violent country on earth. Rather than being the "league leader" in violent death rates, as the sensational and misleading media reports suggest when focusing exclusively on guns, though the U.S. is still high, its violent death rate is not orders of magnitude higher than other countries.


Well Said!

orkneycadian
10-Jan-11, 15:35
I was at a comedy show the other night, and the Glaswegian comic on stage used a good analagy. Of course, it all may be (comedy) artistic licence, but it highlights a point....

He was talking about the glass ban in the middle of Glasgow, to cut down on, as he described them "glassings" and "bottlings". Now, I was not aware that this had been introduced yet, but maybe I am a bit behind the times. For the purposes of laughing along with comedian, and reporting it on here, we'll assume that a glass ban is indeed in place....

So anyway, comedian says that since the glass ban, glassings and bottlings are all but unheard of nowadays. But there has been a 90% increase in attacks with stools and tables! He then goes with (In an accent like the NED's on Still Game) "Dae ye really think that if were no gonna get leave tae glass somebody, wur gonna let it lie at that?"

As Brandy said above, if they don't use guns in Wick, it'll be axes, or kitchen knives, or bits of 4 x 2 or whatever is handiest.

orkneycadian
10-Jan-11, 15:53
it was only a few months ago in england that a man went on a killing spree.. with a gun.. that led to a chase and eventually his death.. what was the total number of deaths there again?

Less than the death toll on the roads of Scotland over an average weekend, and about 1/4 of the number of people who will die on UK roads today (based on the 2007 total of 2946, divided by 365). I find it even more shocking that the deaths from legally held firearms is a miniscule proportion of deaths from "acceptable causes" such as smoking or road accidents. Yet, we implement knee jerk reactions on the legal ownership of guns for legitimate purposes, but do nothing of significance about smoking and car ownership. I expect that the majority of firearm incidents in the UK involve illegally held firearms, yet, any incident involving legally held guns is blown out of (no pun intended) all proportion.

sandyr1
10-Jan-11, 17:15
I am so glad there is some objectivity being presented.....

The Drunken Duck
10-Jan-11, 17:28
Sorry to state the obvious but guns dont kill people. People kill people.

The method is just gravy.

Anfield
10-Jan-11, 17:56
"..Less than the death toll on the roads over Scotland over an average weekend, and about 1/4 of the number of people who will die on UK roads today (based on the 2007 total of 2946, divided by 365).."

Why are you trying to distance gun ownership away from violent deaths? First of all it was deaths caused by smoking, now it is traffic accidents. What next, people killed by BSE infected cows?


Sorry to state the obvious but guns dont kill people. People kill people. The method is just gravy.

A very good point, but surely if you are raised in a country where people have unlimited access to guns then it is easier to pull a gun to settle a dispute than to resort to other ways of settling differences/grievances etc

sandyr1
10-Jan-11, 18:17
A very good point, but surely if you are raised in a country where people have unlimited access to guns then it is easier to pull a gun to settle a dispute than to resort to other ways of settling differences/grievances etc[/QUOTE]

Yes you have a very good point.....but....people who are raised with guns don't always think that way....from what I have experienced.
You see if one does not 'live the life', one does not understand it.
Same as another thread I have had the privelege of addressing...that of large engined, large bodied autos.
For some unknown reason people think that a large V6/V8 is very hard on fuel. Not really so.. The power just has a different way of being used/adapted.
OK I shall agree that guns are a problem in the Unites States, but not as bad as what the media make out....remember the addage....'If it bleeds it leads'...referring to the media, particularly Television...or a 'Picture is worth a thousand words'.
And if one of those shot was not a High Politician then the story would get 2 lines.
Sarah Palin put out a 'paper' on areas to target politically.....she put a set of gun sights on those places....That is the way they think, one does not take everything literally. One must walk in another's shoes to understand.
I went from Caithness to London, then to Canada and did some work and traveled in the United States and South....there are vast differences in the way people talk and in their work and mannerisms.......I think if we all remember that then we won't say how stoooopid other places are.

Just take the Police in Canada....armed with a 40 cal Glock...... on hand.. 45 shells.....with a sawed off pump action shotgun. Regular Officer on the Street. ....special teams have AK47, Uzis etc etc..People are hardly ever shot.....because guns are available, doth not make the person a Gunman/woman.

George Brims
10-Jan-11, 18:24
Gosh P....Is she a looney??? Because she has a different view...I dunno where this all comes from.
She is not a loony. She is a dangerous buffoon. There is a difference.

sandyr1
10-Jan-11, 18:27
She is not a loony. She is a dangerous buffoon. There is a difference.

Why M. George??
Just another small thought...Why would a seemingly intelligent soul, slag another Country, when they have enough on their own 'patch', to more than amply fill that role!

orkneycadian
10-Jan-11, 18:30
Why are you trying to distance gun ownership away from violent deaths? First of all it was deaths caused by smoking, now it is traffic accidents. What next, people killed by BSE infected cows?

Yeah, if I had the time or inclination I would compile a list of all the things that folk get killed by in this country (maybe such a list is out there already, waiting to be Googled....), and violent deaths involving firearms will find its place in that list. I imagine it will be pretty low down.

The point is, why do some folk get in such a fankle about the shocking deaths of a small number of people when someone runs amok with a gun, yet appear oblivious to the far higher number of deaths that happen on the roads, in smokers houses or, as you suggest, in a burger joint serving mad cow burgers?

I remember thinking the same kind of thing when I was in the USA in the months following the 11th of September carry on. Nearly 3,000 folk died as a result of that. Shocking indeed. And little wonder that in the USA for months and months after that set of events you couldnt turn on the TV or radio and not hear them still going on about it. But in the same year, more than 500,000 US citizens died of cancer. Thats a September the 11th every 2 and a bit days, from cancer alone. But yet, these people, who's lives are just as important than those that perished in the attacks, never get a mention. Their names dont get read out on international TV every anniverary of their deaths.

Its easy to focus on the (I am wary of using the term....) spectacular events that affect a relatively few number of people, and forget about the (again wary....) mundane and routine events that have an impact on a far greater number of people.

bekisman
10-Jan-11, 19:38
Don't know if any of you have experience of staying with the Swiss in their homes, but Mrs Beks and I have a number of friends in Zurich and Basle with whom we stay, it was interesting to see one our friends, who was the quartermaster for Oerlikon, Zurich, to show his semi-automatic pistol and live rounds to us - he is an architect..

With a population of 7,797,500 (London 7,556,900) Switzerland is quite a small country, it is reassuring to bear in mind that with firearms in private homes estimated minimally at 1.2 million to 3 million, that firearm homicide is just 0.58 per 100,000 of the population.. Weapons are there, freely available; gun ownership does not go hand in hand with violent death..

'Gun politics in Switzerland are unique in Europe. The personal weapon of militia is kept at home as part of the military obligations. Switzerland has one of the highest militia gun ownership rates in the world. Each such individual is required to keep his army-issued personal weapon (the 5.56x45mm Sig 550 rifle for enlisted personnel and/or the 9mm SIG-Sauer P220 semi-automatic pistol for officers, medical and postal personnel) at home with a specified personal retention quantity of government-issued personal ammunition (50 rounds 5.56 mm / 48 rounds 9mm), which is sealed and inspected regularly to ensure that no unauthorized use takes place. The ammunition are intended for use while travelling to the army barracks in case of invasion.

When their period of service has ended, militiamen have the choice of keeping their personal weapon and other selected items of their equipment. In this case of retention, the rifle is sent to the weapons factory where the fully automatic function is removed; the rifle is then returned to the discharged owner. The rifle is then a semi-automatic or self-loading rifle.
there are about 420,000 assault rifles stored at private homes, Additionally, there are some 320,000 assault rifles and military pistols exempted from military service in private possession, In addition, there are several hundred thousand other semi-automatic small arms classified as carbines. The total number of firearms in private homes is estimated minimally at 1.2 million to 3 million'

ducati
10-Jan-11, 19:45
Don't know if any of you have experience of staying with the Swiss in their homes, but Mrs Beks and I have a number of friends in Zurich and Basle with whom we stay, it was interesting to see one our friends, who was the quartermaster for Oerlikon, Zurich, to show his semi-automatic pistol and live rounds to us - he is an architect..

With a population of 7,797,500 (London 7,556,900) Switzerland is quite a small country, it is reassuring to bear in mind that with firearms in private homes estimated minimally at 1.2 million to 3 million, that firearm homicide is just 0.58 per 100,000 of the population.. Weapons are there, freely available; gun ownership does not go hand in hand with violent death..

'Gun politics in Switzerland are unique in Europe. The personal weapon of militia is kept at home as part of the military obligations. Switzerland has one of the highest militia gun ownership rates in the world. Each such individual is required to keep his army-issued personal weapon (the 5.56x45mm Sig 550 rifle for enlisted personnel and/or the 9mm SIG-Sauer P220 semi-automatic pistol for officers, medical and postal personnel) at home with a specified personal retention quantity of government-issued personal ammunition (50 rounds 5.56 mm / 48 rounds 9mm), which is sealed and inspected regularly to ensure that no unauthorized use takes place. The ammunition are intended for use while travelling to the army barracks in case of invasion.

When their period of service has ended, militiamen have the choice of keeping their personal weapon and other selected items of their equipment. In this case of retention, the rifle is sent to the weapons factory where the fully automatic function is removed; the rifle is then returned to the discharged owner. The rifle is then a semi-automatic or self-loading rifle.
there are about 420,000 assault rifles stored at private homes, Additionally, there are some 320,000 assault rifles and military pistols exempted from military service in private possession, In addition, there are several hundred thousand other semi-automatic small arms classified as carbines. The total number of firearms in private homes is estimated minimally at 1.2 million to 3 million'

Fascinating facts but begs the question why? Do Swiss people feel unsafe?

bekisman
10-Jan-11, 19:55
Fascinating facts but begs the question why? Do Swiss people feel unsafe?

Wot! don't you know the value of Cuckoo Clocks - got to be protected!!!

sandyr1
10-Jan-11, 19:57
Na....na....na....Safety may be an issue, but it is a way of life....The United States..Cowboys and Indians.
The Rite to Bear Arms....had it since day 1.
Go to the pub. Take your sidearm off and hang it on the peg at the door....just like a coat. It's like having your wallet with you......

ducati
10-Jan-11, 20:00
Wot! don't you know the value of Cuckoo Clocks - got to be protected!!!

I should imagine, with every household armed to the teeth with semi-automatic assault rifles, that burglary is a 'dying' crime :lol:

oldmarine
10-Jan-11, 21:23
I just do not understand the gun culture of the USA, this to me is shocking

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/918572--congresswoman-shot-at-least-5-killed?bn=1

golach: I just posted on another thread about this shooting and my wife being close to the shooting. Usually, people like this who have records with the police don't get weapons, but unfortunately this one slipped through.

orkneycadian
11-Jan-11, 16:52
Why are you comparing deaths by smoking in UK with deaths by shooting in the USA? Am I missing something here.
As you are using statistics let us try this one:
The deaths per per 100,000 (excluding suicide) for gun crime in USA (http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF01.htm) is 3.98, the rate in the UK is 0.15. Therefore you are 27 times more likely to be killed in USA by a gunman than in the UK which, given your figures of UK/USA population is quite shocking to say the least

Thats a fair point. Will give you that. But the example later given about Switzerland distorts the asumption that a higher level of gun ownership leads to a higher level of gun homicides. Sure, Switzerland has a higher level of gun crime than the UK, but nowhere near the proportion that the USA has.

The graph on the link you posted shows that in general (USA excepted) there is a best fit line that conforms to the headline above the graph, viz, higher level of gun ownership = higher level of gun deaths. No surprise there. The same as saying the more folk that smoke, the more folk will die of smoking. 2 things are important though....

1. The USA does not fit into the same relationship on that graph. Its plain that they are away out on their own. So its more than just percentage ownership in the states. Its culture.

2. If we use the USA as the "bad" yardstick to compare to smoking or road deaths, for example, then we really are using the worst case scenario. So comparing US gun deaths with UK smoking deaths really is the most pessimistic view possible. Accordingly, saying that 12-16 times more folk die from smoking in the UK than do from gun crime in the USA rally puts the perspective on it. If 12-16 times more folk (per capita) die in this country than do from guns in the bad ole USA, then there must really be a smoking problem in this country.

ducati
11-Jan-11, 17:44
Bandying statistics around is all well and good, but everyone should ask themselves this, (if you are arguing for or against personal gun ownership). How many of the people you actually know, would you be happy having a gun?

orkneycadian
11-Jan-11, 18:10
Most folk round about here do have one. Its a farming area, and most places I ken have a gun of some sort for vermin control. Hardly any of them shoot for sport that I know of. They just shoot when they need to.

The debate seems to have arisen from some posters putting forward the case that gun crime is too high, therefore guns should be banned. But I suspect the real agenda is to ban the hunting/control of certian species (words chosen carefully!) by asserting that guns kill too many humans therefore should be banned.

But back to your question, I think I would struggle to think of many folk I ken that I would not be happy having a gun. I would actually find it easier to compile a list of folk that shouldnt have a car!

ducati
11-Jan-11, 18:21
Most folk round about here do have one. Its a farming area, and most places I ken have a gun of some sort for vermin control. Hardly any of them shoot for sport that I know of. They just shoot when they need to.

The debate seems to have arisen from some posters putting forward the case that gun crime is too high, therefore guns should be banned. But I suspect the real agenda is to ban the hunting/control of certian species (words chosen carefully!) by asserting that guns kill too many humans therefore should be banned.

But back to your question, I think I would struggle to think of many folk I ken that I would not be happy having a gun. I would actually find it easier to compile a list of folk that shouldnt have a car!

You are lucky. I know several people with guns that I'm sure it is just a matter of time:eek:

I'd better clarifiy they are not local to here thank god. One is always drunk and angry, one is a highly unstable character (and a Gordie) and the other is just plain off his trolly.

bekisman
11-Jan-11, 19:49
You are lucky. I know several people with guns that I'm sure it is just a matter of time:eek:

I'd better clarifiy they are not local to here thank god. One is always drunk and angry, one is a highly unstable character (and a Gordie) and the other is just plain off his trolly.

What's wrong with Geordies!!? :roll:

ducati
11-Jan-11, 20:02
What's wrong with Geordies!!? :roll:

Not Geordies, Geordie!!!

bekisman
11-Jan-11, 21:11
Not Geordies, Geordie!!!

Ah! I see (Silly me)..

sandyr1
11-Jan-11, 21:48
Bandying statistics around is all well and good, but everyone should ask themselves this, (if you are arguing for or against personal gun ownership). How many of the people you actually know, would you be happy having a gun?

Depends where you live....In the UK I never thought about it even tho' my Grandfather was a gamekeeper all his life, and we always had ample guns in the house.
In Canada it does not seem abnormal to have a hunting gun around, and in some of the States it is a way of life......
The younger people nowadays go around with a phone in their hand. In the US there are guns.....

David Banks
12-Jan-11, 00:56
Depends where you live....In the UK I never thought about it even tho' my Grandfather was a gamekeeper all his life, and we always had ample guns in the house.
In Canada it does not seem abnormal to have a hunting gun around, and in some of the States it is a way of life......
The younger people nowadays go around with a phone in their hand. In the US there are guns.....

This comment comes closest to my opinion, although I have never really been "around" guns very much.
One has to ask what the possible uses are for a handgun with clip of 30 bullets - and no, I do not want an answer.
Knowledge of the US gun culture first came to my attention with the arrival of TV in Caithness, accompanied by several U.S. shows starting with the lone ranger.
There is in my view quite a difference between a handgun and a long gun, and appreciate that they are treated differently here in Canada.
Sometimes I wonder if, instead of having the "right" to have a gun, one had to prove one's need for a gun. And the possible reasons for having a gun should be very few and far between. If you live "in the sticks" with polar bears, then that seems OK. I find the "recreational" use of guns particularly hard to justify.
Recently, I googled the Second Ammendment, and found to my surprise that the debate over the right to bear arms goes back to 17th/18th century England -- and in fact all the way back to Roman times. Interesting reading if you have a few minutes to spare.
I also appreciate the comment from Tuscon, Arizona where he said that unfortunately this one slipped through -- that's certainly how it appears.
Thanks for everyone's contributions.

David Banks
12-Jan-11, 18:56
I just do not understand the gun culture of the USA, this to me is shocking

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/918572--congresswoman-shot-at-least-5-killed?bn=1

As if to make my point from an earlier post, I have a couple of quotes from Arnold Swartzenegger, one of which was in our local paper a few days ago - prior to the recent events in Tuscon.

"I have a love interest in every one of my films: a gun."
Arnold Schwarzenegger (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/arnoldschw146564.html)

and, also via Google:

"Everything I have, my career, my success, my family, I owe to America."
Arnold Schwarzenegger (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/arnoldschw167611.html)

P.S.: Try googling his "quotes" - he has some other interesting things to say

golach
12-Jan-11, 20:38
As if to make my point from an earlier post, I have a couple of quotes from Arnold Swartzenegger, one of which was in our local paper a few days ago - prior to the recent events in Tuscon.

"I have a love interest in every one of my films: a gun."
Arnold Schwarzenegger (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/arnoldschw146564.html)
and, also via Google:

"Everything I have, my career, my success, my family, I owe to America."
Arnold Schwarzenegger (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/arnoldschw167611.html)

P.S.: Try googling his "quotes" - he has some other interesting things to say


I am sorry, I do not understand your post David Banks??????
What has a failed Californian Governor, got to do with idiot in Arizona, who caused this horrific crime. now if you had headlined Sarah Palin, then I may have tried to undestand
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfCnSVSbzLs

teddybear1873
12-Jan-11, 20:39
Someone told me this in the States, now don't quote me on this, cause I don't even know if It's true or not. Illegal weapons, firearms or whatever you wan't to call it, out number the population in the USA. So is there approx 300 million illegal weapons in the USA? Now that is alot if It's true. I can't get my head around that amount.

Here's another one that I just found out that scares me a bit. My father inlaw can go out and buy a firearm, It will take him about 2 days to get it as they will do a backround check. I, on the other hand can't, cause I ain't a US Citizen. But, he can either sell it or give it as a gift to me and It's 100% legal in South Carolina. How bloody stupid is that?

sandyr1
12-Jan-11, 20:59
I am sorry, I do not understand your post David Banks??????
What has a failed Californian Governor, got to do with idiot in Arizona, who caused this horrific crime. now if you had headlined Sarah Palin, then I may have tried to undestand
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfCnSVSbzLs

Hi hi Mr. G....I don't want to disagree BUT....all Politicians make Asses of themselves...remember the movie about the UK, I think Deputy PM.
I have made 'gaffs' at times/ we all have.
It's all about sensationalism..
Sarah Palin was a Huge Mistake by the Republicans...They were trying to get elected and took this 'unprepared' woman from nowhere.....
Today a Metro Toronto Police Sgt was killed....Huge news....but some months ago two tow truck drivers were also killed in seperate incidents whilst doing their job, and they were lucky to get 4 lines!
You know where I came from(the back of beyond), and what I did in London. Came to Canada and Gawd....The booze laws in '72 were like prohibition. You could have your car seized and sold by the Gov't for having half a bottle of beer! Guns were readily available...I personally went to Sears and bought a 303 Lee Enfield rifle and a box of shells for $22.00/ No ID.
And if the Police seized a gun...rifle or shotgun, you just put in the trunk of the Cruiser for use if needed....but no one got shot...or very few....
Two thirds of the Murders in Toronto are among a segregated bunch of Druggies...and they don't have Firearms Acquisition Certificate or permit to carry!
I dunno......It takes all kinds to make a World....all different.....Just take U & me!

sandyr1
12-Jan-11, 21:12
Someone told me this in the States, now don't quote me on this, cause I don't even know if It's true or not. Illegal weapons, firearms or whatever you wan't to call it, out number the population in the USA. So is there approx 300 million illegal weapons in the USA? Now that is alot if It's true. I can't get my head around that amount.

Here's another one that I just found out that scares me a bit. My father inlaw can go out and buy a firearm, It will take him about 2 days to get it as they will do a backround check. I, on the other hand can't, cause I ain't a US Citizen. But, he can either sell it or give it as a gift to me and It's 100% legal in South Carolina. How bloody stupid is that?

Well is it really that stupid! (He is taking responsibility for you having it. And someone voted for it and not against it.
BUT you can go likely to any City in the World, and buy an Illegal gun on the Street.
Guns Laws don't prevent gun use!

teddybear1873
12-Jan-11, 22:55
Was only a few months ago, they were doing a buy one get one free and right it off in your taxes.........Yep, only in America.

sandyr1
12-Jan-11, 23:16
Was only a few months ago, they were doing a buy one get one free and right it off in your taxes.........Yep, only in America.

You know America is not all bad....I am North of there, but I have worked in the Sates on occasion and spend some time in the Winters in Fla..
And there are rednecks all over...
One truck dealership was giving an AK47 away with a new pickup.....Now is that really bad! It is quite a nice gun, as is the old 30-30 carbine.
Guns can be quite facinating. I don't own one anymore but it is a way of life...just like the Wild West.
My Casper, Wyoming time also took me to the scene of the original 'Butch Cassidy thing!. Of course there was a slight problem finding the place as all the directional and speed signs were full of bullet holes......so funny! Real Cowboys!

teddybear1873
12-Jan-11, 23:56
To some..........Trying or attempting to take a gun away to some Americans is like taking away part of the family. My father in-law is an strong believer in them. I have no idea how many firearms he owns, but It's at least 15. It's part of American history and culture, that most people are going to have to accept that It's here to stay.

sandyr1
13-Jan-11, 15:39
The residents of the United States are 'big' on their Constitutuinal Rites and the 'freedoms' it gives them.
So many cannot be wrong...I just think that we have to respect other's rites and customs.

teddybear1873
13-Jan-11, 15:52
The residents of the United States are 'big' on their Constitutuinal Rites and the 'freedoms' it gives them.
So many cannot be wrong...I just think that we have to respect other's rites and customs.

I can respect somewhat of their rites and customs. What I can't respect is some of the bloody stupid laws States have. For example, South Carolina is trying to push that it will be legal to leave a concealed weapon under their car seat. Yes, lets leave it there for a wee one in the back seat to pick it up........DUHHHHHH!!!!

How thick and stupid is that?

sandyr1
13-Jan-11, 16:08
I can respect somewhat of their rites and customs. What I can't respect is some of the bloody stupid laws States have. For example, South Carolina is trying to push that it will be legal to leave a concealed weapon under their car seat. Yes, lets leave it there for a wee one in the back seat to pick it up........DUHHHHHH!!!!

How thick and stupid is that?

There are stooooopid laws and people all over..
Do you live there permanently? I thought I would change the context of my Q as I was not referring to you as S......

teddybear1873
13-Jan-11, 16:27
There are stooooopid laws and people all over..
Do you live there permanently? I thought I would change the context of my Q as I was not referring to you as S......

I wouldn't say permanently. Been here for over 2 years. It's my desire to move back to the UK within 5 years. I see your in Ontario, what part?

sandyr1
13-Jan-11, 16:58
I am just East of Toronto, in Southern Central Ontario.
I like to refer to Canada as the 'Promised Land'. Wonderful place to live and ski and car race and sail.....OK....I shall stop.
Carolina is rather nice/ am sure the recession is hurtin' but things will get better.

teddybear1873
13-Jan-11, 17:05
I am just East of Toronto, in Southern Central Ontario.
I like to refer to Canada as the 'Promised Land'. Wonderful place to live and ski and car race and sail.....OK....I shall stop.
Carolina is rather nice/ am sure the recession is hurtin' but things will get better.

It's slowly getting there. Some outline areas are still hurting with the recession. I loved my time In Canada, I was in Kingston in 2006 and loved every minute of it. Visited Toronto on a few occasions, the 1000 Islands. Great people up there.

sandyr1
13-Jan-11, 17:06
It's slowly getting there. Some outline areas are still hurting with the recession. I loved my time In Canada, I was in Kingston in 2006 and loved every minute of it. Visited Toronto on a few occasions, the 1000 Islands. Great people up there.

Yes we are!! haha