View Full Version : Ambulance 'chose not to respond'.
I often wonder what planet some folk are on, it's certainly not planet Earth..
Basically; 33-year-old Mandy Mathieson had a cardiac arrest in Tomintoul, Moray, so a 999 call is made, but because an ambulance technician; Owen McLauchlan, 23 - who was just 800 yards away - chose not to respond - as he was on his tea break. (Mind you, that day he had not being called out on a single job, so was not exactly rushed off his feet)
So instead, the call was answered by paramedics 15 miles away in Grantown-on-Spey. An air ambulance helicopter was also dispatched and reached the village almost 30 minutes after the call. In spite of frantic efforts by family members; Ms Mathieson was declared dead at the scene.
Ms Mathieson's brother, Charles, said his family were shocked by how the emergency was dealt with. "I just assumed, and the public at large assumed, that for a treble nine call the nearest ambulance will be despatched."
A spokesman for the Scottish Ambulance Service said the 999 call for a cardiac emergency was received at about midday on 16 October. He said: "The ambulance technician on duty in Tomintoul was on a rest break and chose not to respond. "An ambulance crew was dispatched from Grantown-on-Spey and arrived on scene within 21 minutes, followed by an air ambulance helicopter eight minutes later. "Unfortunately the patient did not survive the cardiac arrest and our thoughts are with her family at this difficult time."
The technician was suspended - but today it's been announced that, he will be permitted to keep his job, but has been ordered to "undergo training".. how very nice.
"Chose not to respond"; a woman dies in agony, and he gets to keep his job, as long as he has a bit of training, of course..
Sick.:~(
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-12110270
i can't believe this story at all! Well i've heard it all now! So when your taken ill now do you have to ask if the ambulance people are on a break or not? I honestly don't understand how the people employing this person can give him his job back! 33 years old for god sake!! I hope his flaming sandwich was worth it!! He obviously doesn't feel very passionate about his job, give the job to someone who cares!!!!
Sad story.
I do wonder if he knew it was a"cardiac emergency" or did he just refuse to a general call?
I'm not saying I approve of his actions either way, but it seems he's only played within the rules. If he shouldn't be entitled to ignore a call on a break the rules should be written so.
We force lorry drivers to have breaks for safety reasons. Maybe there should be 2 types of breaks for ambulances, one after so many hours that could be interupted and one after a longer period which cannot?
The Drunken Duck
05-Jan-11, 10:12
I find it hard to believe that a Paramedic would ignore a serious cardiac emergency and just go on having his break. I suspect he perhaps was not told it was life threatening. But then I was involved in incidents in the RCC in which we "chose not to respond" such as climbers and hill walkers who think the yellow helicopters are some sort of taxi, NHS doctors who demand helicopters when it is quicker to go by road ambulance when you take into account scramble and transit time and fishermen of a certain nation who think they have the right to be airlifted off whenever they get homesick. A report titled "RAF Helicopter refuses to airlift dying woman" would paint it one way just as "RAF refuses to airlift injured fisherman" would, and provoke the usual outrage, but it doesnt paint the whole picture. I think there is a bit of that going on here.
People should go spend a day with the Emergency Services and see the decisions they have to make EVERY day before judging them on a BBC news report, I have seen the Press Liason Officer brief the BBC, then watched the News Report and found it hard to believe they were listening to the same guy as me. I dont believe a word the BBC says anymore.
orkneycadian
05-Jan-11, 10:48
Its a no different scenario from anywhere in employment these days. This ambulance driver was taking the same rights he is entitled to as other employees in other sectors. This is just a prime example of how much rights employees have nowadays, and how few employers have. You'll find the same thing happening everywhere else.
The mention of the 'BBC' link was just general, all newspapers reported on this.
The Ambulance man was within two minutes of the location of this emergency call - not just some minor incident. I'm afraid that if a person 'works to rule' (if it existed), and decided to continue with his cup of tea, whilst 800 yards away an emergency was occurring, I do not think much of that person's integrity. The whole day there had no been a single call-out, a perfect example here of using one's instincts..
Personally I could not live with myself, as a fire-fighter for 11 years in the West Mids, I'm fully aware of the misrepresentation that media outlets can give, but at the moment cannot find an 'official' version from the Scottish Ambulance Service, that would allay any misinformation..
I think the passage of information to McLauchlan that "there was a young female not breathing" just two minutes away - cancels out any notion that he was not aware it was an emergency..
The actions of Mr McLauchlan were also condemned by Shirley Keith, who is the part-time ambulance auxiliary in the village. Mrs Keith was at home when she became aware of the emergency at Ms Mathieson's home. She said: "There was ambulance from Grantown outside Mandy's house and an air ambulance hovering overhead. I phoned Owen at the depot to find out what was going on. "He said to me it was a young female not breathing. He said 'You are not going to believe what I'm about to say, but I'm on my break and I refuse to go out'. "I was completely numb.(1)
(1) http://www.scotsman.com/scotland/Teabreak-ambulance-man-is-suspended.6610409.jp (http://www.scotsman.com/scotland/Teabreak-ambulance-man-is-suspended.6610409.jp)
“It’s just disbelief that this could happen. It’s a small village. The ambulance was based in the village. “The timescale meant that instead of two minutes, they had to wait for 21 minutes for an ambulance. The family feel as though there are two issues to this – the technician was called and he refused, which is one of the issues. (2)
(2) http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/1992392?UserKey (http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/1992392?UserKey)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1325891/Woman-died-ambulance-driver-refused-999-tea-break.html?ITO=1490
http://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/Article.aspx/1996429?UserKey
The people in that area will have no faith in the ambulance service and who can blame them?
speedo215
05-Jan-11, 11:15
i remember reading about this before christmas and it was all over the news as well, it is nothing short of shocking
orkneycadian
05-Jan-11, 11:25
Whats nothing short of shocking? The state of employment law these days? ;)
Was there not a row before about single ambulance crews?
I get the fact that workers are allowed breaks!
I can't believe for one minute that a fire fighter who has a shout would turn around and say, hang on for half an hour whilst i finish my break! Or a policeman gets a call to a stabbing and says, bit inconvenient sorry i'm in greggs getting my dinner!!
They are called the emergency services for a reason!! someone is in need of help!!!
Yes there are circumstances with rescue helicopters or ambulance crews when they are faced with horrendous weather conditions which prevents a rescue! But i can't believe for one minute a rescue helicopter crew would refuse to help just to have a brew!!!!
Where has common sense gone???
orkneycadian
05-Jan-11, 13:41
'Fraid thats the way it is going! We have had stories of Firefighters not allowed to rescue people because Elf and Safety considerations have to be taken into account. Not necessarily because the situation is gravely dangerous, but because the paperwork and risk assessments are not in order!
Employees asserting their rights to their conditions apply all across the board, emergency services no different.
As most people suspect, there is always more to a case than what is reported in the media. My brother is an ambulance driver based in Aviemore so earlier I called him to find out more and the following is what he told me.
The ambulance was double crewed however the female driver took advantage of their break to pop home, she lives locally, leaving McLauchlan at the ambulance station. During their break an emergency call had gone out to the crew, and not being in the ambulance the control telephoned the ambulance station four times before the young man answered it. The reason he didn't answer the phone is because the Scottish Ambulance Service, in a drive to save money, changed every ambulance personnels contract in that they would no longer get paid breaks, and before taking a break they must inform control to say that they are unavailable, which they had done. The emergency control room should have called an alternative crew, not called the personnel on a break.
The young man finally answered it because he thought it may be a personal call to him or the woman, only to discover it was the control room. All they told him was it was an emergency, but not the nature or where to attend to. He said he was on his break and not going out, so control then used alternative means, during which time Ms Mathieson sadly died.
The real villains in this are the Scottish Ambulance Service, and to a lesser extent the female colleague. The S.A.S. are ones who changed the contracts and expect everyone to follow the rules, they broke their own rule by telephoning a crew that were on a break. The female colleague broke the rule amongst workmates by informing the media, where she has been quoted as saying "we just get on with it", that from a woman who has been off work with 'stress' since then. So much for "just getting on with it"!!
My brother knows the young man very well, and having spoken to him about it, the young man said had he been given more info then he would have run along to the home of the deceased.
Also, some of the family of the deceased work for the S.A.S and know the rules, so for them to criticise the ambulance technician is wrong, they should really be attacking their bosses. The S.A.S. needs to change it's working conditions, all crews do 7 days on/7 days off, being logged on for work from 8am-8pm, during which they are allowed a break, and on call the rest of the time. That's the reason the technician is keeping his job, he was following his working conditions.
That's all I've been told, make of it what you will.
I get the fact that workers are allowed breaks!
I can't believe for one minute that a fire fighter who has a shout would turn around and say, hang on for half an hour whilst i finish my break! Or a policeman gets a call to a stabbing and says, bit inconvenient sorry i'm in greggs getting my dinner!!
They are called the emergency services for a reason!! someone is in need of help!!!
Yes there are circumstances with rescue helicopters or ambulance crews when they are faced with horrendous weather conditions which prevents a rescue! But i can't believe for one minute a rescue helicopter crew would refuse to help just to have a brew!!!!
Where has common sense gone???
The police and fire service get paid breaks which is why they must respond, ambulance crews don't.
northener
05-Jan-11, 13:52
As most people suspect, there is always more to a case than what is reported in the media. My brother is an ambulance driver based in Aviemore so earlier I called him to find out more and the following is what he told me.
The ambulance was double crewed however the female driver took advantage of their break to pop home, she lives locally, leaving McLauchlan at the ambulance station. During their break an emergency call had gone out to the crew, and not being in the ambulance the control telephoned the ambulance station four times before the young man answered it. The reason he didn't answer the phone is because the Scottish Ambulance Service, in a drive to save money, changed every ambulance personnels contract in that they would no longer get paid breaks, and before taking a break they must inform control to say that they are unavailable, which they had done. The emergency control room should have called an alternative crew, not called the personnel on a break.
The young man finally answered it because he thought it may be a personal call to him or the woman, only to discover it was the control room. All they told him was it was an emergency, but not the nature or where to attend to. He said he was on his break and not going out, so control then used alternative means, during which time Ms Mathieson sadly died.
The real villains in this are the Scottish Ambulance Service, and to a lesser extent the female colleague. The S.A.S. are ones who changed the contracts and expect everyone to follow the rules, they broke their own rule by telephoning a crew that were on a break. The female colleague broke the rule amongst workmates by informing the media, where she has been quoted as saying "we just get on with it", that from a woman who has been off work with 'stress' since then. So much for "just getting on with it"!!
My brother knows the young man very well, and having spoken to him about it, the young man said had he been given more info then he would have run along to the home of the deceased.
Also, some of the family of the deceased work for the S.A.S and know the rules, so for them to criticise the ambulance technician is wrong, they should really be attacking their bosses. The S.A.S. needs to change it's working conditions, all crews do 7 days on/7 days off, being logged on for work from 8am-8pm, during which they are allowed a break, and on call the rest of the time. That's the reason the technician is keeping his job, he was following his working conditions.
That's all I've been told, make of it what you will.
Thanks for that, Joxy. As always, the situation is not as straightforward as the Media would have us believe.
As most people suspect, there is always more to a case than what is reported in the media. My brother is an ambulance driver based in Aviemore so earlier I called him to find out more and the following is what he told me.
The ambulance was double crewed however the female driver took advantage of their break to pop home, she lives locally, leaving McLauchlan at the ambulance station. During their break an emergency call had gone out to the crew, and not being in the ambulance the control telephoned the ambulance station four times before the young man answered it. The reason he didn't answer the phone is because the Scottish Ambulance Service, in a drive to save money, changed every ambulance personnels contract in that they would no longer get paid breaks, and before taking a break they must inform control to say that they are unavailable, which they had done. The emergency control room should have called an alternative crew, not called the personnel on a break.
The young man finally answered it because he thought it may be a personal call to him or the woman, only to discover it was the control room. All they told him was it was an emergency, but not the nature or where to attend to. He said he was on his break and not going out, so control then used alternative means, during which time Ms Mathieson sadly died.
The real villains in this are the Scottish Ambulance Service, and to a lesser extent the female colleague. The S.A.S. are ones who changed the contracts and expect everyone to follow the rules, they broke their own rule by telephoning a crew that were on a break. The female colleague broke the rule amongst workmates by informing the media, where she has been quoted as saying "we just get on with it", that from a woman who has been off work with 'stress' since then. So much for "just getting on with it"!!
My brother knows the young man very well, and having spoken to him about it, the young man said had he been given more info then he would have run along to the home of the deceased.
Also, some of the family of the deceased work for the S.A.S and know the rules, so for them to criticise the ambulance technician is wrong, they should really be attacking their bosses. The S.A.S. needs to change it's working conditions, all crews do 7 days on/7 days off, being logged on for work from 8am-8pm, during which they are allowed a break, and on call the rest of the time. That's the reason the technician is keeping his job, he was following his working conditions.
That's all I've been told, make of it what you will.
As with many of these types of stories there are two, possibly more, sides. It's interesting that the Scottish Ambulance Service managed to keep its culpability hidden from the media. Perhaps it’s time to look at the control room staff and their work practices.
Thank you Jox
Knew there were some rule changes that when an ambulance person called in for their break they were NEVER to be called as they are not covered by any of the Scottish Ambulance Service insurances but could not remember exactly.
As you say it is time Scottish Ambulance Service covered all the contingencies of their service, not expecting their staff to go back to the old way of their staff never getting an uninterrupted break or frequently no break.
What I cannot understand is the comments from the part-time colleague Shirley Keith - she knows the rules, would she break the rules and risk getting into trouble due to not being covered by SAS insurances?
Everything these days is - cover your back, ensure you are covered to do what you are doing, health and safety covers everyone and every situation and specially with emergency services.
The Drunken Duck
05-Jan-11, 15:26
I get the fact that workers are allowed breaks!
I can't believe for one minute that a fire fighter who has a shout would turn around and say, hang on for half an hour whilst i finish my break! Or a policeman gets a call to a stabbing and says, bit inconvenient sorry i'm in greggs getting my dinner!!
They are called the emergency services for a reason!! someone is in need of help!!!
Yes there are circumstances with rescue helicopters or ambulance crews when they are faced with horrendous weather conditions which prevents a rescue! But i can't believe for one minute a rescue helicopter crew would refuse to help just to have a brew!!!!
Where has common sense gone???
A military rescue helicopter can refuse to attend at any time. They dont even have to use having a brew as an excuse. They are there for the rescue of military aircrew, its what they are established and funded for. But any request that detracts from cover CAN be refused. The reason they go whenever possible is a) humanitarian and b) its the best training available. Say a climber was freezing to death on a hilltop and a fast jet pilot who had ejected was in the same predicament .. they would go to the pilot first, he cost a lot to train. Just like many a request for a yellow chopper by the NHS for patient transfers and such often get refused. They think they are just a faster sexier ambulance, they're not. Its a popular misconception that they are like the Fire, Ambulance and Police services. They help whenever they can but dont confuse that with they have to.
As Jox's solid information shows it wasn't the guys fault, it was the conditions he was working under. Even if you work in the Emergency Services sector you still get tired and need a break like everyone else. I worked many 12 hour shifts during which I couldn't leave to get a hot meal as I was the only one qualified to work the Satellite Distress Beacon Monitoring system, I would often let the phone ring while I took ten or fifteen minutes had a brew and a snacky cake. It would be the only break I got on most shifts.
Well done Jox, I suspected there would be more to the story than what was in the press.
It seems rather bizarre that when eventually the phone was answered 'All they told him was it was an emergency, but not the nature or where to attend'. I would have thought that the SAS would have giving more info than this, scenario: ring, ring; "Hello, Ambulance Station" - Hello its Ambulance Control here, got an emergency for you".. "Sorry" says the bloke, "I'm on me break, told you earlier" Oh sorry about that" and put the phone down?
Considering that his part-time colleague Shirley Keith - who, being with the Scottish Ambulance Service knows the rules, states; "I phoned Owen at the depot to find out what was going on. He said to me it was a young female not breathing. He said 'You are not going to believe what I'm about to say, but I'm on my break and I refuse to go out'. "I was completely numb.. Still sounds very wrong that he was made totally aware of the situation, but still refused to attend to an incident in close proximity..
If this is a right 'muck-up' by SAS, and he followed the 'rules' to the letter, why has Owen McLauchlan been ordered to 'undergo training' - can anyone explain what 'training' would that be?
I could maybe understand if this station was working non-stop undertaking arduous emergencies, but not a single shout that day?.. But then rules is rules..
When I was a student nurse I had the chance to follow a crew for a 12hr shift. Albeit 10yrs ago and in the central belt! The crew were entitled to two 'uninterupted' meal breaks during the 12hr shift. This was vital as the crews were busy throughout their shift. Dont forget these people are often having to concentrate on driving under 'blues and two's' conditions and having to concentrate on the patients illness and injuries in which they are called to deal with. HOWEVER i cant understand how in this day and age this awful situation was allowed to happen! SAS bosses have no idea how geographically the highlands are disadvantaged. Being in the health profession i was shocked to learn that SAS bosses had even suggested that the caithness region could be covered by one ambulance during the night! even more astounding that despite the last two winters NHS bosses seem to think that closing Dunbar is a good idea. Would you like to be suffering chest pain in the middle of the night when the snow's knee deep to be told that there is only one both ambulances are busy and you have to drive to wick! Theyre just asking for trouble!
Oh look another trial by media and the indignant thread - He didn’t break any rules, every other emergency service has had rest breaks, the ambulance service have only recently acquired this. Maybe they need more ambulances rather than thinking that 12 hour shifts with no break is okay, in life critical situations. Perhaps if the area wasn't so understaffed that would help.
Still I can't expect more but for him to be tarred and feathered and his bosses let off or ignored.
Yes it's regrettable but the driver isn't omniscient.
spaceddaisy
05-Jan-11, 17:06
It scares me that there are so few ambulances in remote areas. I was taken in an ambulance from Aviemore to Raigmore and became very upset when I realised that the ambulance I was in was the only one for that area. Had someone else had something wrong with them the nearest ambulance station was in Pitlochry and one would be sent from there. That's almost 30 miles.
The police and fire service get paid breaks which is why they must respond, ambulance crews don't.
I got "paid breaks" when I was in the cops. Did I ever get to take them? Not a chance. [evil] Then we got the public complaining that we were "wasting our time" in takeaways. :roll:
Ian.
I got "paid breaks" when I was in the cops. Did I ever get to take them? Not a chance. [evil] Then we got the public complaining that we were "wasting our time" in takeaways. :roll:
Ian.
Know what you mean, maybe did have 'paid breaks' in fire service - don't remember many of them.. quite often on a good shout would be working 15 hours straight (normal overnight stint) with maybe a cup of tea, provided by the residents.. this 15 hours was often extended by an hour or so before relief crews arrived..
I think some folk have no idea...
Oh look another trial by media and the indignant thread - He didn’t break any rules, every other emergency service has had rest breaks, the ambulance service have only recently acquired this. Maybe they need more ambulances rather than thinking that 12 hour shifts with no break is okay, in life critical situations. Perhaps if the area wasn't so understaffed that would help.
Still I can't expect more but for him to be tarred and feathered and his bosses let off or ignored.
Yes it's regrettable but the driver isn't omniscient.
Yes recQuery, you are perfectly correct; it is "regrettable"
It seems rather bizarre that when eventually the phone was answered 'All they told him was it was an emergency, but not the nature or where to attend'. I would have thought that the SAS would have giving more info than this, scenario: ring, ring; "Hello, Ambulance Station" - Hello its Ambulance Control here, got an emergency for you".. "Sorry" says the bloke, "I'm on me break, told you earlier" Oh sorry about that" and put the phone down?
Considering that his part-time colleague Shirley Keith - who, being with the Scottish Ambulance Service knows the rules, states; "I phoned Owen at the depot to find out what was going on. He said to me it was a young female not breathing. He said 'You are not going to believe what I'm about to say, but I'm on my break and I refuse to go out'. "I was completely numb.. Still sounds very wrong that he was made totally aware of the situation, but still refused to attend to an incident in close proximity..
If this is a right 'muck-up' by SAS, and he followed the 'rules' to the letter, why has Owen McLauchlan been ordered to 'undergo training' - can anyone explain what 'training' would that be?
I could maybe understand if this station was working non-stop undertaking arduous emergencies, but not a single shout that day?.. But then rules is rules..
I've been informed there is a recording of the call, he wasn't told. The female colleague, in talking to the media, is trying to cover her own backside by blackening McLauchlan, saying he knew. Also, he was in the job only 5 months, does he risk upsetting his colleagues by insisting they answer the emergency, and would he be covered by insurance were something to happen or go wrong in attending to the emergency?
Lets look at a scenario: An emergency call goes out to a crew on a break, they respond because it's the moral thing to do. Meanwhile, you are driving along and reach over to adjust the radio volume as you take a bend in the road, a road you've driven hundreds of times. At the crown of the bend you meet said ambulance answering an emergency, it's going well above the speed limit, the vehicles collide. You are, at best, survive with scratches and maybe a broken bone; at worst, your dead. It turns out the crew shouldn't have answered the call because they were on a break, therefore they aren't covered by insurance. How would you or your family feel given those circumstances?
The are only two facts in this thread that we all know for sure:
1. A woman died that perhaps could have been saved.
2. None of us were there or are privy to all the info so how can we criticise?
Tubthumper
05-Jan-11, 18:33
I think that although the SAS PR department seem to have questions to answer, yet again it's our highly-paid but underworked national media (which should be providing clear, accurate and unbiased information) that have been found wanting.
Never mind sticking the poor wee ambulance tech on a training course, how about some training for all the reporters concerned, along with their subbies and editors? [evil]
Oh, and some org training in not prematurely jumping to conclusions perhaps?
Last night a Scottish Ambulance Service spokesman said: "The technician on duty on Tomintoul was on a rest break and chose not to respond. Unfortunately, the patient did not survive."
"We have asked the Health Professions Council to consider the ambulance technician's decision-making."
'Health Professions Council'? IF the SAS are covering their arse, suppose they would say that..
So the Ambulance technician was having a break during an easy day, SAS called him twice, he decides not to respond, a colleague (if she's telling the truth) says she also asked him to go, he refused.. because the technician was technically off duty on his break, he was not covered by insurance (?), and although the incident was within sight of the emergency, i.e. two short minutes away no action was taken by him. A woman 'unfortunately' died.
OK, we all have our standards of ideals, some would allow 'rules' to stand in the way, but I know for a fact that at least one other of the posters here could not give a toss about rules.. Personally if I was called upon in that situation I would have responded differently, and on occasions I have broken the rules aka 'health and safety' - that's my opinion, so be it.. as to jumping to conclusions, I see it differently..
OK, we have different takes on this, seems I'm near enough on my own here, but being a St Johns Ambulance First Aid Instructor, am a member of the UK Ambulance site.. just curious what the take was on this by actual ambulance technicians/staff:
In my mind there is a moral obligation on all of us to respond to another human who is in life threatening distress and I would not sleep at night if I knew that I had finished my sandwich and drank my tea whilst someone died down the road and I could have helped.
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It depends, I work in a busy urban station with many resources I always book an uninterrupted break, because if I don't, I don't get a break. If worked on a quite rural station its a different story, I would respond during my break. I do think it is unfair that there is an expectation amongst many people that we should be on call during our meal break. Having said that if they put out an open channel call, while on my uninterrupted break, saying they had no resources to send to an arrest, I would always go.
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The policy is clear: If you can be disturbed then you HAVE to respond to a 999 during a meal break. If you refuse then it is the same as refusing to respond to a 999 during your normal working hours. Once you have returned from a job during a disturbed meal break then you complete your break and during that time you cannot be disturbed for the remainder of your break. If you have chosen to be not disturbed then you are not under any obligation to respond to a 999 (or to even answer the phone or to stay on station) during your meal break.From what I have read , I *think* the Tech had chosen not to be disturbed and so would have been 'legally' in the right to ignore the call from control, but morally.......?
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IMO, morally thats wrong but legally he might be ok. I couldn't have sat there though knowing that there is a person 800m away dying and I'm sitting there eating.
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Out in these very rural areas, when you are on duty (typically seven days on and then seven days off), you are it! One ambulance, you. If you do not respond to a life threatening incident then (as was shown in this story) the chances are that the p/t will not survive. I've worked at one station where is there is one ambulance covering 600 square miles! It can take 60 minutes to drive under emergency conditions from one side of the area you are covering to the other (there are excellent CFRs though). Plus, communities in these areas know and respect that there is very limited ambulance resources available and so will (generally) only call 999 for a true emergency.
Personally, I could not sit eating my sandwiches whilst someone might be dying outside my door with the next nearest ambulance 20-30+ minutes away.
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Based on only what is currently known - I can understand the financial aspects of the problem of being disturbed and also the policy aspect of it. However, morally I couldn't deal with knowing that someone in my community died because I didn't provide the care that I could have. He knew (at the very least) that it was an urgent call and he will have to live with that, I couldn't.
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Don't get me wrong, if you've spent all morning sitting on your backside watching daytime telly then expect to be left alone when the only job of your day happens to come in at lunch time, you'll get no support from me, as others have suggested, its a different story in the most rural areas compared to the towns & cities, however for all we know, the crew in this case might have only just got back from a 4 hour round trip from one side of their area to the other & back again,[no he did not] those facts are conveniently absent from the story reported, but if that was the case, then it is the service who have failed, both in their duty of care to their service users as well as their obligations to their staff.
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I don't want my break to be disturbed, but if I heard an open channel request for an arrest/ ill child were there were know resources I would be more than happy to go out during my break.
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Sack him and let someone who actually cares do his job! Don't care if he was on a meal break. If you see 33 yr old cardiac arrest on your screen your not just gonna pass it on!
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I agree, if control phoned on my undisturbed break and told me they had an arrest (which is happening quite a bit at the moment cos they're naughty...) I would go - they put you in an impossible position. But they shouldn't be phoning me in the first place, because it makes a mockery of the idea of an undisturbed break.
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I agree its wrong to disturb you whilst on a meal break but I'm sorry you do get reimbursed and this is someone's life we are talking about here and a 33 yr for that. Not someone in their 90's. This person probably stood a chance. I know its an unusual view to take but at the end of the day if you aren't willing to help someone who is as ill as this women was then you have to question whether your in the right job. Would you walk past someone in the street who is unconscious, no. So how is this any different. I know this is probably going to rile a people and for that I'm sorry but no doubt we will some stimulating debate!
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where do you draw the line. But this still leaves the matter that this Tech was able to potentially save someone's life and point blank refused.
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I know one tech who works way up north. She went 18 weeks between 999 calls: when one does finally come in, are you really going to say 'nope, I'm on my break'?
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Tubthumper
05-Jan-11, 21:25
If he was told what the emergency was, maybe he should have responded off his own back. I would have. But if, as Jox has said, he wasn't told of the nature of the call and the controller didn't push it, why is he being vilified? And why isn't the dame that went home for her break being apportioned an equal share of the blame, after all she wasn't at her post when she should have been.
It seems that he turned down a call as he was entitled to do, that doesn't mean he point-blank refused to do his job and/ or save someone's life.
If he was told what the emergency was, maybe he should have responded off his own back. I would have. But if, as Jox has said, he wasn't told of the nature of the call and the controller didn't push it, why is he being vilified? And why isn't the dame that went home for her break being apportioned an equal share of the blame, after all she wasn't at her post when she should have been.
It seems that he turned down a call as he was entitled to do, that doesn't mean he point-blank refused to do his job and/ or save someone's life.
So basically it boils down to was he actually informed it was an emergency? Jox: "All they told him was it was an emergency, but not the nature or where to attend to"
Or
"The control phoned him, it was obviously an emergency, and he was only two minutes away. They then phoned him again letting him know there was someone in respiratory distress. Then his colleague, Shirley Keith, called him. 'I phoned Owen at the depot to find out what was going on. He said to me it was a young female not breathing. He said 'You are not going to believe what I'm about to say, but I'm on my break and I refuse to go out'.
The chairman and chief executive [SAS] will meet with the community in Tomintoul on January 28.” we might then discover the actual truth...
Sorry I'm not into paid/unpaid interrupted or uninterrupted breaks, it's weird thing of mine..
I do agree with you bekisman, morally, he should have gone, and had I been in his position I would have gone. What I haven't ascertained from my brother is, if they respond to an emergency while taking a 'legal' break, are they insured? And I also agree that having been a quiet morning then they should have gone. Maybe he has economised with the truth, perhaps his colleague has too, hopefully we will find out.
Ultimately, the S.A.S. has to rethink it's policy.
The are only two facts in this thread that we all know for sure:
1. A woman died that perhaps could have been saved.
2. None of us were there or are privy to all the info so how can we criticise?
Well said!
I want to give you repuation for your post but don't have a clue how to anymore.
Understand when an ambulance person is on break they must not be interrupted under any circumstances without permission from SAS HQ in Edinburgh, not even the local area office can over rule!
Perhaps when he answered the call he may have thought this was area office testing their procedures and knowledge of the rules, he was so new to the job.
Definitely time SAS looked to the manning, coverage and their own rules and regulations.
I personally would have found it very hard not to respond to an emergency call.
Well said!
I want to give you repuation for your post but don't have a clue how to anymore.
The star at the bottom left.
oldmarine
06-Jan-11, 00:29
I often wonder what planet some folk are on, it's certainly not planet Earth..
Basically; 33-year-old Mandy Mathieson had a cardiac arrest in Tomintoul, Moray, so a 999 call is made, but because an ambulance technician; Owen McLauchlan, 23 - who was just 800 yards away - chose not to respond - as he was on his tea break. (Mind you, that day he had not being called out on a single job, so was not exactly rushed off his feet)
So instead, the call was answered by paramedics 15 miles away in Grantown-on-Spey. An air ambulance helicopter was also dispatched and reached the village almost 30 minutes after the call. In spite of frantic efforts by family members; Ms Mathieson was declared dead at the scene.
Ms Mathieson's brother, Charles, said his family were shocked by how the emergency was dealt with. "I just assumed, and the public at large assumed, that for a treble nine call the nearest ambulance will be despatched."
A spokesman for the Scottish Ambulance Service said the 999 call for a cardiac emergency was received at about midday on 16 October. He said: "The ambulance technician on duty in Tomintoul was on a rest break and chose not to respond. "An ambulance crew was dispatched from Grantown-on-Spey and arrived on scene within 21 minutes, followed by an air ambulance helicopter eight minutes later. "Unfortunately the patient did not survive the cardiac arrest and our thoughts are with her family at this difficult time."
The technician was suspended - but today it's been announced that, he will be permitted to keep his job, but has been ordered to "undergo training".. how very nice.
"Chose not to respond"; a woman dies in agony, and he gets to keep his job, as long as he has a bit of training, of course..
Sick.:~(
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-12110270
This ambulance technician, knowing his action allowed for a death, will have to live with himself the rest of his life. I would hate to be in his shoes with so many people knowing he allowed for this death.
The star at the bottom left.
Cheers.
Don't know why i didn't see that before lol.
I do agree with you bekisman, morally, he should have gone, and had I been in his position I would have gone. What I haven't ascertained from my brother is, if they respond to an emergency while taking a 'legal' break, are they insured? And I also agree that having been a quiet morning then they should have gone. Maybe he has economised with the truth, perhaps his colleague has too, hopefully we will find out. Ultimately, the S.A.S. has to rethink it's policy.
You are right, the Scottish Ambulance Service, according to what I've seen, is a mess.. This 'undisturbed' meal time is part of Agenda for Change, which is a UK wide ruling, crews are not to be disturbed during their breaks, but they have the option to 'opt out' and be disturbed. They receive £250-a-year to allow them to be disturbed and then receive £5 each time they are disturbed, but that is the crew's choice. They are given that choice every year since it came in, April 2006.
Three years ago, a similar thing occurred to an old boy of 82, who was choking, but the nearest ambulance staff were involved in a meal break, and could not be disturbed, so a response was initiated from much further away. The old chap died.
It does seem so incredible that this rule applies to remote areas, I can see that at a busy station, there will always be an attending crew available within a couple of miles. But to actually have a station/crew, at a rural location, disappear from the radar; 'cos they are on a break, but are within minutes of a serious incident whilst an 'available' crew is summoned from a considerable distance away, is untenable, let alone scandalous. Being part of the emergency services, how on earth can't the SAS system be the same as the Police or Fire Service system?
Contrary, to some accusations on this thread, there was no jumping to conclusions. May I say that I've found no support within the Ambulance fraternity for the non-action taking by the person concerned in Tomintoul - this may well be a case of 'keeping the head down'..there are a lot of questions to be asked, and presumably these questions will be answered fully when the Scottish Ambulance Service Chairman; David Garbutt, and Chief Executive Pauline Howie meet with the community in Tomintoul on January 28.
Where it should be discovered who actually was economical with the truth..
I used to live in Tomintoul, Iut that is knew Mandy well, her family who have a long history in the S.A.S. It was Mandy's great uncle, i think, who got a permanent station in Tomintoul. The whole village is devastated, with a pop. of around 150 everyone knew everyone else.
He did know it was a heart attack. No other Tomintoul S.A.S. member would of done what he did. My brother who lives there had a heart attack early one morning. His next door neighbor saved his life and he was a paramedic, off duty.
The odds are, even if he had attended Mandy she would of still died but that is not the point.
[QUOTE=bekisman;805840]You are right, the Scottish Ambulance Service, according to what I've seen, is a mess.. This 'undisturbed' meal time is part of Agenda for Change, which is a UK wide ruling, crews are not to be disturbed during their breaks, but they have the option to 'opt out' and be disturbed. They receive £250-a-year to allow them to be disturbed and then receive £5 each time they are disturbed, but that is the crew's choice. They are given that choice every year since it came in, April 2006.
Three years ago, a similar thing occurred to an old boy of 82, who was choking, but the nearest ambulance staff were involved in a meal break, and could not be disturbed, so a response was initiated from much further away. The old chap died.
I am in utter amazement that an "Emergency Service' is allowed the above.....I have never even heard of it, and I have been around emergency Services for years!
What does the people on here think about it? And what about helping their fellow Human Being!
canadagirl
06-Jan-11, 22:56
Where I live we have "first responders", which are trained volunteers linked with the local volunteer fire dept. All use pagers and are told what the emergency is, so that anyone close can go, only the fire dept. has to go to the station first. When one of our 2 ambulances is delivering a patient to town one from a neighbouring district comes to the edge of our district to cover. Are there no general emergency response in scotland? or police capable of cpr? If you stub your toe here you get volunteers, fire dept, ambulance/police in that order. There must be some kind of auxiliary to the ambulance if they're so stretched?
There are "first responders" in Caithness, dont know about other areas.
Oh look another trial by media and the indignant thread - He didn’t break any rules, every other emergency service has had rest breaks, the ambulance service have only recently acquired this. Maybe they need more ambulances rather than thinking that 12 hour shifts with no break is okay, in life critical situations. Perhaps if the area wasn't so understaffed that would help.
Still I can't expect more but for him to be tarred and feathered and his bosses let off or ignored.
Yes it's regrettable but the driver isn't omniscient.
Very well put, but yes....something has to happen......and not only the bosses...The Health System itself surely!
Oh look another trial by media and the indignant thread - He didn’t break any rules, every other emergency service has had rest breaks, the ambulance service have only recently acquired this. Maybe they need more ambulances rather than thinking that 12 hour shifts with no break is okay, in life critical situations. Perhaps if the area wasn't so understaffed that would help. Still I can't expect more but for him to be tarred and feathered and his bosses let off or ignored. Yes it's regrettable but the driver isn't omniscient.
ReQuery, it is not an 'indignant thread' - that was very immature of you. You have certainly missed the actual point, that this is a rural station, there had not been one call that day - it would appear that following 'rules' are paramount, whilst morality plays second fiddle in your philosophy ..
I expect you are not involved with the emergency services, above are instances mentioned that both the Police and Fire Service, often find their 'breaks' are non-existent. Another poster with links to Tomitoul has given their opinion, and comments like your own, are flippant and unnecessary. Although, if anything has been uncovered, is that the SAS requires a full investigation into it's duties.
canadagirl
07-Jan-11, 01:00
I still don't understand, if the dispatcher knew the next ambulance was so far away would they not dispatch the fire department or police?
I still don't understand, if the dispatcher knew the next ambulance was so far away would they not dispatch the fire department or police?
Our Police and Fire department are not trained as Paramedics, thats why we have Ambulance personell and vehicles
thats why we have Ambulance men and vehicles
Ambulance men AND WOMEN and vehicles Golach.
Shame on you!
Golach.....It is my understanding that Fire and Police are trained in First Aid and CPR. I know I was in the UK and Canada, and that includes the United States....
Yes they cannot do a tracheotomy, but they can do the basics which most of the time is all that is required to 'Hold the Fort!
Doth thow agreest?
Ambulance men AND WOMEN and vehicles Golach.
Shame on you!
Suitably chastised....its been amended
Golach.....It is my understanding that Fire and Police are trained in First Aid and CPR. I know I was in the UK and Canada, and that includes the United States....
Yes they cannot do a tracheotomy, but they can do the basics which most of the time is all that is required to 'Hold the Fort!
Doth thow agreest?
Sorry Sandy, you well know being an ex bobbie, that amateur first aid can be more dangerous, so I dis-agreeest
Sorry Sandy, you well know being an ex bobbie, that amateur first aid can be more dangerous, so I dis-agreeest
You have a point, but when all else fails one has to do with that which is available!
I did my best and am sure that all who practice these professions are the same way inclined, even the Excise Men!! Gotcha......
ReQuery, it is not an 'indignant thread' - that was very immature of you. You have certainly missed the actual point, that this is a rural station, there had not been one call that day - it would appear that following 'rules' are paramount, whilst morality plays second fiddle in your philosophy ..
I expect you are not involved with the emergency services, above are instances mentioned that both the Police and Fire Service, often find their 'breaks' are non-existent. Another poster with links to Tomitoul has given their opinion, and comments like your own, are flippant and unnecessary. Although, if anything has been uncovered, is that the SAS requires a full investigation into it's duties.
As i said I have very close links with Tomintoul. My son-in-law is a retained fireman there. I know for a fact that no other SAS person in Tomintoul would of ignored the call. There were 2 or 3 others off duty in the village a matter of yards away from Mandy but none were informed.
The village had been short staffed for a number of months and had complained about this. Their one hope from this tragedy is that the village is not left short staffed again or any other SAS station.
I would rather die knowing someone was trying to help me than to die affraid and left alone and in pain!!
I was in asda as a customer one day and a young man had an epileptic fit. I didn't didn't think about it and started helping another of the workers help him,
by now he was purple!!
I had done first aid quite a few years before,we weren't paramedics or doctors just ordinary people doing everyday things, but we helped!
luckily the young man recovered!!
I wasn't insured or being paid to help, but, I could go home and sleep at night knowing i had tried!!!!!!
I would rather die knowing someone was trying to help me than to die affraid and left alone and in pain!!
I was in asda as a customer one day and a young man had an epileptic fit. I didn't didn't think about it and started helping another of the workers help him,
by now he was purple!!
I had done first aid quite a few years before,we weren't paramedics or doctors just ordinary people doing everyday things, but we helped!
luckily the young man recovered!!
I wasn't insured or being paid to help, but, I could go home and sleep at night knowing i had tried!!!!!!
Very well said!
Although I've had a number of PM's giving full support, I seem to have thoroughly agitated one particular person, so to calm things down, I'm closing the thread..
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