View Full Version : Australia has it right!
This is only part of a report - I think Britain should adopt the same attitude.
Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday
to get out of Australia, as the government targeted radicals in a bid to
head off potential terror attacks.
A day after a group of mainstream Muslim leaders pledged loyalty to
Australia and her Queen at a special meeting with Prime Minister John
Howard, he and his Ministers made it clear that extremists would face a
crackdown. Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir apparent to Howard,
hinted that some radical clerics could be asked to leave the country if
they did not accept that Australia was a secular state, and its laws were
made by parliament. "If those are not your values, if you want a country
which has Sharia law or a theocratic state, then Australia is not for
you," he said on national television.
"IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave it. I am tired
of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or
their culture.
"This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you
every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining,
whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or
Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great
Australian freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.'"
"If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here.
You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted."
Maybe if we circulate this amongst ourselves, UK citizens will find the
backbone to start speaking and voting the same truths!
Lolabelle
15-Aug-06, 13:07
All I can say is "Praise the Lord". I never thought I would here our PM and co get real with the muslims. I think they have finally realised that the general public have had enough. They (PM) were in danger of losing their power in the next election if they don't crack down. We have been being held to ransom by the minority groups for fear of being racist or politically incorrect. :D
I'm far from being racist, but I think we have bent over backwards long enough.
Lolabelle
15-Aug-06, 13:59
I just want them to enjoy the place. It is safe and peaceful and a beautiful place to live. I am more than happy for anyone of any religion or origin to come and live here. I want them to stop with the wanting to bring what they so desperately wanted to leave.:confused
yes i fully agree its time to stand up to the minorities. political correctness has gone mad the country is going to hell in a hand basket. why should people who have enjoyed a way of life for generations have to curtail that way of life just to keep the minorities happy. I would like for my children to enjoy the freedom that my grand parents had. people laid down their lives during various conflicts so that we can enjoy our freedom today. minorities should not have the right to dictate to the majority, regardless of their race ,creed, colour or religion. we should respect the considerations of minorities but we should not have to live our lives to suit them. let me make one thing clear i do not believe that muslims are terrorists. Terrorists are Terrorists they may hide behind religion to cover what they do. I do not believe that any religious group would condone terror. As in my opinion terrorists represent the lowest form of life known to mankind..
Lolabelle
15-Aug-06, 14:07
yes i fully agree its time to stand up to the minorities. political correctness has gone mad the country is going to hell in a hand basket. why should people who have enjoyed a way of life for generations have to curtail that way of life just to keep the minorities happy. I would like for my children to enjoy the freedom that my grand parents had. people laid down their lives during various conflicts so that we can enjoy our freedom today. minorities should not have the right to dictate to the majority, regardless of their race ,creed, colour or religion. we should respect the considerations of minorities but we should not have to live our lives to suit them. let me make one thing clear i do not believe that muslims are terrorists. Terrorists are Terrorists they may hide behind religion to cover what they do. I do not believe that any religious group would condone terror. As in my opinion terrorists represent the lowest form of life known to mankind..
And I full agree with this!
Hi
During my life I have lived at various times in some 30 countries, and in each of them I tried to ensure I did not 'infringe' on that countries customs and beliefs (even as far as not pointing with my foot, in thailand!).. although a humanist I respected those folk in their own countries to carry on their own religions and beliefs, be it buddhism, Shintoism (or any other 'ism) I would never interfere, even if I disaproved, it is after all their country. Although a western european I think it is totally wrong to push my ideas, if I'm in their country I abide by their rules.
Why on earth can't others who come to the UK treat us the same? I know a great many Muslims who are horrified and ashamed by the action of a very small minority who call for their fellows to change British culture more to their own way of living.. totally wrong, all it will do is ferment hatred by the population in UK.
As the adage goes; "if you want to change the world - start with yourself" but leave the rest of us alone.
Buttercup
15-Aug-06, 14:28
WELL DONE AUSTRALIA! It's just a pity it couldn't be the same here. It's the minority that cause the trouble that the majority have to "bow down" to. Of course not all muslims are terrorists, but it's the old story that if you fly with the crows you get shot with them too. Somebody once told me that every war that has ever taken place had used religion as an excuse and when you think about it that's very true, though it's not religion it's just people hiding behind religion.
I'd also like to say that I think that Political Correctness has been taken to a ridiculous level. As another old saying goes "When in Rome, do as the Romans do".
cuddlepop
15-Aug-06, 14:45
Why cant we have a government that adopts this attitude.Well done Australia,wasn't that the place we sent our criminals in days gone by lol.I guess they took British commensense with them to.:confused
Bobinovich
15-Aug-06, 15:56
About blooming time! In Caithness we may be distant from the mainstream of minority religion, but we can still see the effects it's having on this country and it's people.
Only question is how do we get our own Government to listen and act?
Ideas on the back of a postage stamp please...
Where can I read the whole article?
Hi
seeing a lot about 'profiling' at Airports, although (wrongly?) a lot of people assume that if you're Asian you could be a threat, so they do a more intensive check. Most Indians are hindu, it's the muslims that blow themselves up - don't they? Terrorist try to keep ahead of the 'opposition' and it's no problem to shave off a beard. Don't forget that not all Muslims are Aisian; remember Cat Stevens?: Yusuf Islam. This list has a few surprises, so get rid of the idea that Asian blokes with beards are the one's to watch - they might have been, but terrorists move with the times, anyway it's just a thought...
Charles Yarborough (the current Earl of Yarborough)
Eric Shrody, aka "Everlast" (Musician)
Jonathan Birt (the son of former director of the BBC, John Birt)
Colonel Donald S. Rockwell (Poet and Author)
Lord Headley al-Farooq (British Statesman, Lt. Colonel, Ed. of Salisbury Journal)
Gen. Charles William Buchanan Hamilton (Royal Navy, nephew of former US President James Buchanan)
Marmaduke Pickthall (Bristish Muslim and Translator of Qur'an into English)
Dr. Murad Wilfred Hofmann (Former German Ambassador, Director of Information NATO)
Dr. Gary Miller (former Christian missionary, mathematician, theologian, and writer)
Nancy Ali (Former Roman Catholic Nun)
Joe Ahmed Dobson (son of British Secretary of State for Health
Knud Holmboe (Early 20th Century Danish Journalist)
Micheal Wolfe (Author, Film maker)
Viacheslav Polosin (former archpriest of the Russian Orthodox Church)
Khadijah 'Sue' Watson (Former fundamentalist Protestant pastor)
Jeffrey Lang (Speaker/Author/Mathematics Professor @ University of Kansas)
Peter Sanders (famous photographer)
Amherst Tysson (British writer and poet, lawyer)
Yvonne Ridley (British journalist, formerly held captive by Taliban)
willowbankbear
15-Aug-06, 16:20
This is only part of a report - I think Britain should adopt the same attitude.
Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday
to get out of Australia, as the government targeted radicals in a bid to
head off potential terror attacks.
A day after a group of mainstream Muslim leaders pledged loyalty to
Australia and her Queen at a special meeting with Prime Minister John
Howard, he and his Ministers made it clear that extremists would face a
crackdown. Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir apparent to Howard,
hinted that some radical clerics could be asked to leave the country if
they did not accept that Australia was a secular state, and its laws were
made by parliament. "If those are not your values, if you want a country
which has Sharia law or a theocratic state, then Australia is not for
you," he said on national television.
"IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave it. I am tired
of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or
their culture.
"This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you
every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining,
whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or
Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great
Australian freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.'"
"If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here.
You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted."
Maybe if we circulate this amongst ourselves, UK citizens will find the
backbone to start speaking and voting the same truths!
Who cares if its not p.c? Everything in this article is spot on & to the point, If yer not happy , tata. Thanks for bringing this to our attention Katarina, Im sure there s a lot more than us who think this way.
Hi
seeing a lot about 'profiling' at Airports, although (wrongly?) a lot of people assume that if you're Asian you could be a threat, so they do a more intensive check. Most Indians are hindu, it's the muslims that blow themselves up - don't they? Terrorist try to keep ahead of the 'opposition' and it's no problem to shave off a beard. Don't forget that not all Muslims are Aisian; remember Cat Stevens?: Yusuf Islam. This list has a few surprises, so get rid of the idea that Asian blokes with beards are the one's to watch - they might have been, but terrorists move with the times, anyway it's just a thought...
Muslims about to die on a martyrdom mission shave as part of their purification process - so bang (sorry) goes that theory!
One passenger the other day had been removed because he was a Muslim, had a Muslim name and was able to fly aircraft. He was very stoical about the whole thing. he could have launched into a typical tirade about being victimised, but he preferred to say it was a bit embarrassing being asked to leave the aircraft.
"This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you
every opportunity to enjoy all this."
Hmmm, might have a few objections from the Native Australians on some of that statement....
Naefearjustbeer
15-Aug-06, 17:21
yip wherever the white have gone we have taken over and mistreated the locals. Wo can blame them for ill feeling!! However in this modern age we have to accept the mistakes of the past and move forwards rather than backwards. We should not allow things to get worse, as much as I feel that throwing these folk out of the country would be a good thing. On the other hand you are putting these extremists out of the country to goodness knows where. By throwing them out you are enforcing what they think of us and giving them more freedom away from surveillance to plan more atrocities. Best to lock them up and throw away the key.
Ref Madpict: 'Muslims about to die on a martyrdom mission shave as part of their purification process - so bang (sorry) goes that theory!'
I was saying that below; "so get rid of the idea that Asian blokes with beards are the one's to watch "
Hi
seeing a lot about 'profiling' at Airports, although (wrongly?) a lot of people assume that if you're Asian you could be a threat, so they do a more intensive check. Most Indians are hindu, it's the muslims that blow themselves up - don't they? Terrorist try to keep ahead of the 'opposition' and it's no problem to shave off a beard. Don't forget that not all Muslims are Aisian; remember Cat Stevens?: Yusuf Islam. This list has a few surprises, so get rid of the idea that Asian blokes with beards are the one's to watch - they might have been, but terrorists move with the times, anyway it's just a thought...
Billy Boy
15-Aug-06, 18:36
This is only part of a report - I think Britain should adopt the same attitude.
Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday
to get out of Australia, as the government targeted radicals in a bid to
head off potential terror attacks.
A day after a group of mainstream Muslim leaders pledged loyalty to
Australia and her Queen at a special meeting with Prime Minister John
Howard, he and his Ministers made it clear that extremists would face a
crackdown. Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir apparent to Howard,
hinted that some radical clerics could be asked to leave the country if
they did not accept that Australia was a secular state, and its laws were
made by parliament. "If those are not your values, if you want a country
which has Sharia law or a theocratic state, then Australia is not for
you," he said on national television.
"IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave it. I am tired
of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or
their culture.
"This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you
every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining,
whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or
Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great
Australian freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.'"
"If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here.
You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted."
Maybe if we circulate this amongst ourselves, UK citizens will find the
backbone to start speaking and voting the same truths!
how very true, maybe its time our country took a stand like this
Pete,
Maybe I should have narrowed down your quote a bit more - "Terrorist try to keep ahead of the 'opposition' and it's no problem to shave off a beard" - I was just clarifying that beards are shaved off ;)
Re: Cat Stevens/Yusuf Islam - I saw a documentary on him the other week. Interesting viewing. He had given up all music when he converted because music is forbidden under Islamic law and he had not touched a guitar in all the years since, but he has now come to believe that music is an important aspect of all religions and is using his songwriting to send positive messages about Islam.
This is only part of a report - I think Britain should adopt the same attitude.
Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday
to get out of Australia, as the government targeted radicals in a bid to
head off potential terror attacks.
A day after a group of mainstream Muslim leaders pledged loyalty to
Australia and her Queen at a special meeting with Prime Minister John
Howard, he and his Ministers made it clear that extremists would face a
crackdown. Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir apparent to Howard,
hinted that some radical clerics could be asked to leave the country if
they did not accept that Australia was a secular state, and its laws were
made by parliament. "If those are not your values, if you want a country
which has Sharia law or a theocratic state, then Australia is not for
you," he said on national television.
"IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave it. I am tired
of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or
their culture.
"This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you
every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining,
whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or
Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great
Australian freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.'"
"If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here.
You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted."
Maybe if we circulate this amongst ourselves, UK citizens will find the
backbone to start speaking and voting the same truths!
Well done Oz, we are too PC in this country, I voted not to join the EC, we should have stayed out, and we would have been a better place too many Liberals running us now
engiebenjy
15-Aug-06, 20:22
I'm far from being racist, but I think we have bent over backwards long enough.
Well said Katarina!!!
Where can I read the whole article?On various news websites from about a year ago. Or here (http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/australia.asp).
pultneytooner
15-Aug-06, 21:53
Sharia law is the instrument by which Political Islam seeks to control the Muslim world. Whilst the Sharia may have been inspired by the Holy Quran, it has developed and evolved through time and through the efforts of men. The Sharia should be open to analysis, research and criticism like any other system of law, practice and belief. Its divine inspiration should no more shield it from criticism than Christianity should have been spared criticism for burning heretics or massacring unbelievers. The more pernicious interpretations of the Sharia today fall far short of the minimum standards of justice widely demanded by the international community and by Muslims and non-Muslims alike.
The Sharia should be opposed for its imposition of theocracy over democracy, its abuse of human rights, its institutionalized discrimination, its denial of human dignity and individual autonomy, its punishment of alternative lifestyle choices, and for the severity of its punishments.
In the west, in countries that have a sizable Muslim population, there have been calls for the Sharia to be adopted for the Muslim community. These calls should be vigorously opposed; the Sharia conflicts with many basic human values, such as equality before the law, that punishments should be commensurate with the crime, and that the law must be based on the will of the people. The Sharia as it developed in the first few centuries of Islam incorporated many pre-Islamic Middle-Eastern misogynist and tribal customs and traditions. The Sharia was developed not only from the Holy Quran but incorporates legal principles from other sects. We may ask how a law whose elements were first laid down over 1,000 years ago can possibly be relevant in the 21st century. The Sharia reflects the social and economic conditions at the time of the Abbasids and has become further and further out of touch with later social, economic, technological, cultural and moral developments. The principles of the Sharia are inimical to moral progress, humanity and civilized values.
The problem for all of us is how to oppose the violations of human rights inherent in the Sharia without being accused of blasphemy or apostasy. We would suggest that the answer lies in a return to the Five Pillars of Islam.
For non-Muslims who want to help, the problem is how to avoid charges of cultural imperialism, neocolonialism and racism, or of failing to respect “the other”. But cultural relativism is not the answer. In India, each religion has its own social laws. Muslim women do not enjoy the same rights as Hindu women. Why not? Justice cries out for secularism. One law for all – equality before the law – for Muslims and non-Muslims, for men and women alike, must be the answer.
Many of the arguments for permitting each religion or culture to determine its own laws are based on a misunderstanding of the nature of human rights. Human rights as defined in the UDHR are vested in the individual, not the group. As soon as rights are accorded to a group rather than to individuals, conflict becomes possible not only between one group and another, but between the group and its own members. Any group that denies the right of its members to leave is in contravention of one of the most fundamental principles of human rights. Yet clearly, one of the reasons for the growth of Islam over the past century has been that becoming a Muslim is a one-way street. Whether by birth or conversion (historically likely to have been a forced conversion) once you are a Muslim the only way out, under the Sharia, is death.
When Political Islam really does advocate jihad to achieve world domination, then anyone deeply concerned with humanity and human rights will be critical. Of all the existing ideologies, Political Islam remains the greatest danger to humanity. Political Islam has been neither tamed nor moderated by progressive forces. It has the power to inspire the terrorist mind, and, through its ties to oil-rich states, the funds to pursue its plans.
Islamic apologists often claim that many so-called violations of human rights are based on a misreading of the Holy Quran and will quote this or that sura in its defense. But the arguments against Political Islam are not against the holy texts but against the Sharia as it is practiced today in Islamic states. We are told that Islam is a religion of peace and that the struggle, jihad, to impose Islam by conquest is not to be taken literally. But for Political Islam it is. Ask the suicide bombers. The only possible response to the charge of misunderstanding or misreading Islam is to look at the reality of what is happening in those countries such as Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and northern Nigeria where the Sharia now holds sway.
The world is a battleground of social movements and ideas. It took people in the west over 400 years of often-bloody struggle to gain the right to criticize Christianity. Even now, that right is still not fully recognized. In Britain, for example, there is still a law against blasphemy, and many Islamic clerics have argued that it should be extended to cover Islam as well. It should be scrapped. Once we are prevented from expressing our point of view in the market place of ideas we will be heading back to the Dark Ages.
We must recognize that we now live in a global community. Society is far larger, more diverse and far more complex than the primitive tribal society of 7th century Arabia that gave birth to Islam. It is time to renounce the idea that anyone should be ruled exclusively by the Sharia. More than ever before, people need a secular state that respects freedom of religion, and freedom from religion for those that have none, and human rights founded on the principle that power belongs to the people. This means that we must reject the claims of the Islamists that sovereignty belongs exclusively to Allah – by which they mean His representatives, that is, themselves. Indeed it demands that the very concept of an Islamic state be challenged. The imposition of Sharia law for political ends must be opposed.
What is needed is nothing less than the secularization of Islamic society, and the establishment of the idea that individual conscience must be our guide and the judge of personal, private conduct. But secularization cannot be imposed from outside by force. Attempts by America and its allies to impose democracy and human rights on the Islamic world will rightly be resisted as neocolonialism and will simply drive more and more Muslims into the arms of the extremists. The onus is on us to promote the ideals of personal freedom, progress and change from within Muslim society, with help from those in the rest of the world who share our ideals and hopes for the future.
Some thoughts here...
Taken from http://www.ntpi.org/html/whyoppose.html
oldmarine
15-Aug-06, 22:26
I read some very interesting comments with which I mostly agree. I like seeing the majority of Scots (and hopefully Englishmen) taking a stand with Australia in this matter. I wish the majority of my fellow countrymen in the USA would take the same stand. This grandfather from WWII days has a concern that his later generation does not have an inkling nor intestinal fortitude to stand up against this potential enemy. We all came together during WWII; however, I wonder whether all would come together in what could become Armagedon. Too many are more concerned about politics than the fate of their country.
pultneytooner
15-Aug-06, 22:26
Taken from http://www.ntpi.org/html/whyoppose.html
The whole article is quoted so Why would I give a link to the page when people can read it here?:roll:
The whole article is quoted so Why would I give a link to the page when people can read it here?:roll:
Well, the whole site is of interest don't you agree? So as you didn't link to the source I thought I would.
Also, giving credit to others work is the proper thing to do ;)
I read some very interesting comments with which I mostly agree. I like seeing the majority of Scots (and hopefully Englishmen) taking a stand with Australia in this matter. I wish the majority of my fellow countrymen in the USA would take the same stand. This grandfather from WWII days has a concern that his later generation does not have an inkling nor intestinal fortitude to stand up against this potential enemy. We all came together during WWII; however, I wonder whether all would come together in what could become Armagedon. Too many are more concerned about politics than the fate of their country.
One hundred percent with you in this,Oldmarine. It has not been so long ago that myself and a few others got mauled in this Forum because of our stated belief that the rising numbers of fanatical Muslims in the UK could easily lead to a direct confrontation between our way of life and the rule of Sharia. The pampered youth of our country would have little chance against the fanatics fighting with the believed promise of paradise.
Armageddon, in my opinion, is closer than most people would like to admit. Pray to any deity that will listen that no Messiah's or Mahdi's appear to lead the armies.
pultneytooner
15-Aug-06, 22:41
Well, the whole site is of interest don't you agree? So as you didn't link to the source I thought I would.
Also, giving credit to others work is the proper thing to do ;)
Thank god I have you to keep me right.;)
Kingetter
15-Aug-06, 22:41
I read some very interesting comments with which I mostly agree. I like seeing the majority of Scots (and hopefully Englishmen) taking a stand with Australia in this matter. I wish the majority of my fellow countrymen in the USA would take the same stand. This grandfather from WWII days has a concern that his later generation does not have an inkling nor intestinal fortitude to stand up against this potential enemy. We all came together during WWII; however, I wonder whether all would come together in what could become Armagedon. Too many are more concerned about politics than the fate of their country.
I'm 100% with you feller, and I'm from that hunk of real estate north of you but I can't see the CDN Gov doing this.
You beat me to it MadPict.
That website makes interesting reading; it's worth spending a few minutes reading some of the articles, eg Exorcising Terror — American Style (http://www.ntpi.org/html/exorcisingterror.html) by Pervez Hoodbhoy. Gosh, it's a small world - I've just realised that I was reading a letter of reference from that guy just a couple of weeks ago! What am amazing coincidence. Anyway, I digress...
Here's an excerpt from it:
Learning the Wrong Lessons From 911
Homo sapiens are slow learners, perhaps fatally so.
An impenetrable narcissism prevents most Americans from learning that the world does not share their self-image of a generous, libertarian, humane people whose innocence was injured by a savage attack on its cities. In spite of having fought 28 wars after 1945, maintaining 12 aircraft carrier groups that constantly prowl the oceans, stationing a million soldiers over five continents, and keeping thousands of nuclear weapons, a majority of Americans believes that the US seeks no more than self-defence. The peremptory dismissal of world opinion, contempt for international laws and treaties, and deliberate destruction of the United Nations, characterizes the American mood today.
Shortly after the collapse of the twin towers, George W. Bush rhetorically asked: “Why do they hate us?”. After the Iraq war, that question is still more readily answerable. The daily televised bombardment of Baghdad with cruise missiles and bombs hailing down from the skies, smashed bodies and decapitated children, bombed out hospitals, women and children shot dead at checkpoints manned by the Marines, and the burning of Iraq’s priceless architectural and literary heritage, have added to all older reasons. And each old reason gains new ferocity each time when, with American approval, Ariel Sharon’s bulldozers plow into Palestinian homes and reduce towns like Jenin to rubble.
For its victims, America means invasion, occupation, and humiliation. Inevitably the US has become both a victim of terrorism and its godfather.
But the slowest learners are undoubtedly the world’s Islamists.
Each blow inflicted by America has led Islamists to predict that the pain and humiliation will make all Muslims to close ranks, forget old grudges, purge traitors and renegades from the ranks, and generate a collective rage great enough to take on the power of today's governing civilization. Each time they have been dead wrong.
The fact is that power does not lie in numbers. Nor do large armies and arsenals really matter. What Islamists fail to realize is that the awesome strength of Western civilization springs from accepting the paradigm of science and logic, respecting democratic institutions, allowing value systems to evolve, and boldly challenging dogma without being condemned as blasphemers. They cannot see why the West’s success has anything to do with personal freedom and liberty, artistic and scientific creativity, the compulsive urge to innovate and experiment, or the nursery where such ideas are cultivated – the modern university.
This inability to learn can but lead to the one path – self-defeating and self-harming terrorism. Islamic militant organizations have done far greater harm to Muslims, whose causes they claim to promote, than to those who they battle against. Killing tourists and bombing churches is the work of moral cretins and is not just cowardly and inhumane, but also a strategic disaster. Indeed, fanatical acts can sting and provoke the American colossus but never seriously hurt it.
With so bleak a picture, ours may someday be called the Century of Terror.
It's worth reading the rest of the article - he is a little more optimistic in parts.
Thank god I have you to keep me right.;)
No need to be like that - I found the "No To Political Islam" site a week ago, and quoted the same page as you, in the "Alton Towers Muslim Only Day" thread.
I found the rest of the site an interesting read and linked to it then.
:roll:
pultneytooner
15-Aug-06, 22:54
No need to be like that - I found the "No To Political Islam" site a week ago, and quoted the same page as you, in the "Alton Towers Muslim Only Day" thread.
I found the rest of the site an interesting read and linked to it then.
:roll:
I apologise.:)
I have at least this much in common with my fellow Caithness orgers - I have never been to Australia.
Clearly a change in government there is long overdue.
Prime Minister Howard appears to be a nasty piece of work.
Lets look back for a moment for some of the great racist scares of the last century: the yellow peril from China was the number one threat in the early 90s giving rise to a remarkably bad series of novels by Sax Rohmer, introducing Dr. Fu Manchu.
Here in Canada the Orange Order in Ontario and Manitoba made it clear that in a white man's Canada there was no room for French Canadians. Or aboriginal peoples.
Then there was almost universal hatred of the Irish.- see any 19th century copy of Punch. Or indeed of Catholics - try reading Barnaby Rudge by Charles Dickens.
And lets not forget the eternal scapegoat, the Jews.
I am forced to conclude that human beings are hard wired for racial and ethnic prejudice. THis is particularly true when we haven't even encountered the objects of our hatred. How many Muslims or Hindus are there in Caithness? Not many. No reality to impede the poison flowing through the veins of otherwise respectable people.
Why should Muslims not be allowed to pracice their laws - derived as they are from religion? Would anyone nowadays discriminate against Catholics? In what ways do these laws differ from the religious laws that Jewish people practice?
But this anti-Muslim feeling is built on fear. Fear of the unknown and too much reading of the News of the World.
Grow up, Caithness, get off your knuckles, be true to your traditions of kindliness and hospitality. You can do a lot better than this!
Kingetter
16-Aug-06, 20:51
Rich, a very big, yet fundamental point you seem to have overlooked is that the 'immigrants' leave their own countries often through some persecution, accept the hand of friendship from their new and adopted country, then proceed to try to change their new country to suit themselves, and ghettoise (doubt if its a real word but it will suffice) the place.
Now, if we (Brits/Canucks/etc) go to some of their (ex) countries, are we given the same opportunities and freedoms? Certainly not and I do know that from bitter personal experience. Incidentally, while I'm not from Caithness, but Canada, I have been to Australia.
Last but one point - Fear. In the Christian Bible will be found Fear the Lord thy God (don't ask where!).
Finally (everyone who got this far, well done!), allow folk to do their own thing? OK - IF it does not destroy the society that grants the freedom.
Amen.
I have at least this much in common with my fellow Caithness orgers - I have never been to Australia.
Clearly a change in government there is long overdue.
Prime Minister Howard appears to be a nasty piece of work.
Lets look back for a moment for some of the great racist scares of the last century: the yellow peril from China was the number one threat in the early 90s giving rise to a remarkably bad series of novels by Sax Rohmer, introducing Dr. Fu Manchu.
Here in Canada the Orange Order in Ontario and Manitoba made it clear that in a white man's Canada there was no room for French Canadians. Or aboriginal peoples.
Then there was almost universal hatred of the Irish.- see any 19th century copy of Punch. Or indeed of Catholics - try reading Barnaby Rudge by Charles Dickens.
And lets not forget the eternal scapegoat, the Jews.
I am forced to conclude that human beings are hard wired for racial and ethnic prejudice. THis is particularly true when we haven't even encountered the objects of our hatred. How many Muslims or Hindus are there in Caithness? Not many. No reality to impede the poison flowing through the veins of otherwise respectable people.
Why should Muslims not be allowed to pracice their laws - derived as they are from religion? Would anyone nowadays discriminate against Catholics? In what ways do these laws differ from the religious laws that Jewish people practice?
But this anti-Muslim feeling is built on fear. Fear of the unknown and too much reading of the News of the World.
Grow up, Caithness, get off your knuckles, be true to your traditions of kindliness and hospitality. You can do a lot better than this!
Sorry Rich, I have been to both Canada and Austrailia and see both good and bad sides of both countries, all be it a long time ago, I have experienced the French Canadian insults because I did not speak French, and spent a night in custody of the Montreal Police because of it, and through no fault of mine was branded "Persona Non Grata" from Canada, it has lapsed now thank goodness, so I managed to sneak back in a few years ago.
But I think that "IMMIGRANTS, Not Britains, Must adapt. Take It Or Leave it. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture.
"This is Our Country, Our Land, and Our Lifestyle, and we will allow you
every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining,
whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Constitution, or
Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great
British freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.'"
I do not object to each person practising his or her ethnic customs, just DONT interfere with mine
Why should Muslims not be allowed to pracice their laws - derived as they are from religion?
No-one is preventing them from practicing their religion - but when that religion is followed in it's most extreme forms it (hanging children, stoning to death women, amputations) it is in breach of Human Rights laws. And when they try to impose such laws over and above the laws of a state and a population which does not follow their religion it must be resisted. Non Muslims have less rights under Sharia Law than Muslims.... Can you honestly say that allowing such activity is acceptable?
Would anyone nowadays discriminate against Catholics? In what ways do these laws differ from the religious laws that Jewish people practice?
If they followed such medieval ways I think the world would...
But this anti-Muslim feeling is built on fear. Fear of the unknown and too much reading of the News of the World.
Grow up, Caithness, get off your knuckles, be true to your traditions of kindliness and hospitality. You can do a lot better than this!
You assume that everyone here is a rabid racist (if you check out the "No To Political Islam" you will see it is an Islamic site). A poor assumption, and to add insult to injury you imply we read the NOTW!!!![lol]
Last but one point - Fear. In the Christian Bible will be found Fear the Lord thy God
What's that got to do with anything?
I do not object to each person practising his or her ethnic customs, just DONT interfere with mine
Have you ever considered that your rigid position may also be contributing to the problem?
Have you ever considered that your rigid position may also be contributing to the problem?
No!!!, its my country, when I am in theirs I try to abide by their rules, I expect the same here
No!!!, its my country, when I am in theirs I try to abide by their rules, I expect the same here
Its my ball, It's my sweeties, its my sky, it's mine mine mine. lol
pultneytooner
16-Aug-06, 22:02
Its my ball, It's my sweeties, its my sky, it's mine mine mine. lol
There is a place for all religions in britain but their followers must abide by our laws, simple as that.
Its my ball, It's my sweeties, its my sky, it's mine mine mine. lol
No gleeber, I meant if you came to my house, I would expect you to respect my rights, likewise if I came to your I would do the same, nothing to do with yours or my sweeties
There is a place for all religions in britain but their followers must abide by our laws, simple as that.
I felt uncomfortable as I read some of the contents of this thread. Now, I dont know if that's because I agree with some of the more extreme points or whether I know that the only way forward for the human race is to understand eachothers cultures and not be afraid of them.
The answer probably lies somewhere in the middle otherwise we may as well take wur ball and wur sweeties home and close the door and draw the curtains.
No gleeber, I meant if you came to my house, I would expect you to respect my rights, likewise if I came to your I would do the same, nothing to do with yours or my sweeties
Ive never met you Golach. I know from the org that we have different ideas about the same things. If youcame to my house you would be free to tell me about your ideas and maybe if I had an open mind and your ideas made sense, we may end up closer as a result of my movement. I think I am fluid when it comes to ideas. You seem rigid.
Ive never met you Golach. I know from the org that we have different ideas about the same things. If youcame to my house you would be free to tell me about your ideas and maybe if I had an open mind and your ideas made sense, we may end up closer as a result of my movement. I think I am fluid when it comes to ideas. You seem rigid.
Gleeber you are missing the point. Talking is all very great, and might bring you and I to a better understanding, but I mean as an example, I as a non smoker would not like a smoker to come into my house and just light up, without asking my permission likewise if I went to a smokers house I would not expect them to stubb out their cigarettes because I was there, it is their house not mine, I respect that. Likewise with the Immigrants that want to stay in the UK, abide by our laws, nothing to do with changing beliefs, just accept that its our country .....and you want to live here
brokencross
16-Aug-06, 22:32
Last week on Channel 4 there was a series of programmes called "Sharia TV" which was a debating forum for those of the Muslim faith, where they had experts from the religious side and Sharia law "lawyers" for the want of a better word and a leader from a Muslim community council.
It was very interesting to hear all the views, especially in todays climate. I listened with an open mind. However, I came away with the impression that you are a Muslim, before you are a human being. There was continual talk about their Muslim brothers and sisters and how a Muslim could or would not condemn another Muslim's actions (including bombings) if it was seen to be protecting Islam. The preachings of their Imams and their reading of the Koran seems to be unquestionable and individuals were not allowed to think for themselves, i.e. they follow their religion blindly. The other thing which disturbed me was a sense that many of them felt they were better than the rest of us and in fact there was no room for infidels in their world.
Gleeber you are missing the point. Talking is all very great, and might bring you and I to a better understanding, but I mean as an example, I as a non smoker would not like a smoker to come into my house and just light up, without asking my permission likewise if I went to a smokers house I would not expect them to stubb out their cigarettes because I was there, it is their house not mine, I respect that. Likewise with the Immigrants that want to stay in the UK, abide by our laws, nothing to do with changing beliefs, just accept that its our country .....and you want to live here
I understand your point and I am not disagreeing. I am questioning it.
What about the million or so born and bred British Muslims? Will they have any hope of their country listening to their opinions when it comes to making laws?
From some of the thing I have gathered from your posts regarding discipline, I think their are parts of Sharia law you would be attracted to. How does that thought grab you?
The other thing which disturbed me was a sense that many of them felt they were better than the rest of us and in fact there was no room for infidels in their world.
Christianity is littered with the same attitude.
brokencross
16-Aug-06, 22:39
yes Gleeber but they don't go bombing and killing those who they don't like (not these days anyway)
yes Gleeber but they don't go bombing and killing those who they don't like (not these days anyway)
All the more reason to find out why Muslims do.
I understand your point and I am not disagreeing. I am questioning it.
What about the million or so born and bred British Muslims? Will they have any hope of their country listening to their opinions when it comes to making laws?
From some of the thing I have gathered from your posts regarding discipline, I think their are parts of Sharia law you would be attracted to. How does that thought grab you?
Sorry Gleeber, to me religion as you well know, means nothing, not even Muslim or Islam, I have not time for religion, as far as I am concerned it the word "Religion" is the cause of all the troubles in the world past and present
Sorry Gleeber, to me religion as you well know, means nothing, not even Muslim or Islam, I have not time for religion, as far as I am concerned it the word "Religion" is the cause of all the troubles in the world past and present
Something we can both agree on then.:lol:
brokencross
16-Aug-06, 22:45
Me too............if I may
Chobbersjnr
16-Aug-06, 22:48
Me too............if I mayAnd me!!!!!
And me!!!!!
Couldn't agree more
Me too - all this agreeing - we'll have to all sit down in a minute....
George Brims
16-Aug-06, 23:05
yes Gleeber but they don't go bombing and killing those who they don't like (not these days anyway)
Is the news from Iraq not reaching your corner of the world then? Quite a few bombs dropped and people killed there I hear.
pultneytooner
16-Aug-06, 23:12
I understand your point and I am not disagreeing. I am questioning it.
What about the million or so born and bred British Muslims? Will they have any hope of their country listening to their opinions when it comes to making laws?
From some of the thing I have gathered from your posts regarding discipline, I think their are parts of Sharia law you would be attracted to. How does that thought grab you?
I for one would not say that muslims should have no say in the lawmaking process of this country but they should have no right to have their own, seperate laws, within this country.
j4bberw0ck
17-Aug-06, 00:17
Happy to agree with pultneytooner http://www.fadbeens.co.uk/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_thud.gif :lol:
This "it's our country" trope goes on and on.
It is discouraging, really.
Because of its more or less total irrelevance.
Every country has played host to immigrants. Have you checked out the EC recently?
I dont give a damn if my next door neighbour climbs on the roof with his prayer mat and prays to Mecca. I don't even mind the polygamous Mormon family down the street. I dont get on with the scientologists but live and let live I say. And I enjoy the smell of curry from my other next door neighbour's kitchen, and, having inserted ear plugs I can even live alongside the Scottish piper at the bottom of the road.
I can't imagine that orgers here assembled are too much different.
But we're not talking about that kind of multiculturism are we? At leat I hope we're not.
No.
We are talking about exploding buildings, about exploding subways, about biological warfare and about dozens of ferocious plotters setting out to destroy western civilization via internet bomb assembly sites.
This is pathetic.
My fellow air travellers - you are more likely to be blown up in mid-air by an exploding battery in your laptop. Not every Muslim is a terrorist demanding the return of Spain. There are millions of Muslims worldwide and they behave no more badly than we do.
We after all are the quiet. Christian folk who pulverized Hiroshima and Nagasaki. We invented Napalm and used it too. Our torturers are evey bit as ingenious as theirss.
The mood emanating from the caithness org is one of paranoia.
Listen, guys we survived the IRA, what the heck can Al Kaida have on offer?
But it's not enough to survive if that means creeping like sleechit wee beasties because of fears that are largely imaginary.
I beseech you, enjoy this wonderful world, do not succumb to media hysteria and to the fould blandishments of Tony Blair of that Ilk.
In a couple of years time you will feel ashamed of yourselves and ashamed of these archived messages. Now go away to Church and read the Sermon on the Mount (the Middle East again!)
Kingetter
17-Aug-06, 02:22
There will always be contrasting views about this topic, but, what I think might be more interesting, is to figure out just how it will be written up in history books for kids say in 20 or 30 years time. I figure I won't be around then and certainly wouldn't be reading such books then but there will be some amongst you all who might.
Christianity is littered with the same attitude.
It is more than just littered, it is chock-o-block full of supremacist attitudes that shun the infidel. And if that was my only exposure to religion then I would probably add my name to the "me too" list up above. I abhor all forms of executing the attitude of supremacy, whether they be warfare and killing or imprisonment in a cycle of poverty. Even so, I am not yet ready to give up on religion. (I hope that doesn’t mean that my name will now be removed from the guest list at the birthday concert? :) )
Within the Canadian context, the practise of Sharia Law is pretty much under provincial jurisdiction. In Ontario the limits to its use are incorporated in a 1991 law (called the Arbitration Act) which gives religious leaders the authority to mediate civil matters. ( I probably have some powers under that law, but I don’t know what they are and have never been in a position to use them.) In some provinces similar laws have allowed for some pretty remarkable native American dispute settlements. Recently, in Ontario, the government has begun a review of the law. Concern has been expressed that an increased use of sharia could lead to human rights violations that go beyond the boundaries of Canadian law and standards.
rich always great to see your posts.
Are you sure that article came from here Katarina? This country (Australia) is drowning in political correctness. And in not making a statement and pussyfooting around issues. An NOBODY i've asked voted for John Howard so who knows how he got in last time. His latest bill to process asylum seekers offshore has just been withdrawn because HIS own party members (Liberal here or Consevitives in UK)would not vote for it. Every one here is a migrant even the Aborigines albeit 60,000 years ago It's a wonderful place but we have our problems too. so i'll just sit in my little corner and be nice to everone lol robyn
This "it's our country" trope goes on and on.
It is discouraging, really.
Because of its more or less total irrelevance.
Every country has played host to immigrants. Have you checked out the EC recently?
I dont give a damn if my next door neighbour climbs on the roof with his prayer mat and prays to Mecca. I don't even mind the polygamous Mormon family down the street. I dont get on with the scientologists but live and let live I say. And I enjoy the smell of curry from my other next door neighbour's kitchen, and, having inserted ear plugs I can even live alongside the Scottish piper at the bottom of the road.
I can't imagine that orgers here assembled are too much different.
But we're not talking about that kind of multiculturism are we? At leat I hope we're not.
The "This country..." line was a bit rich bearing in mind the history of Australian treatment of the Aborigines.....
I think everyone here is more than happy to live in peace and harmony with good neighbours of every race or religion.
We are talking about exploding buildings, about exploding subways, about biological warfare and about dozens of ferocious plotters setting out to destroy western civilization via internet bomb assembly sites.
This is pathetic.
My fellow air travellers - you are more likely to be blown up in mid-air by an exploding battery in your laptop. Not every Muslim is a terrorist demanding the return of Spain. There are millions of Muslims worldwide and they behave no more badly than we do.
We after all are the quiet. Christian folk who pulverized Hiroshima and Nagasaki. We invented Napalm and used it too. Our torturers are evey bit as ingenious as theirss.
No, you may be a quiet Chrisitan who bombed Hiroshima - not me...
The mood emanating from the caithness org is one of paranoia.
Listen, guys we survived the IRA, what the heck can Al Kaida have on offer?
But it's not enough to survive if that means creeping like sleechit wee beasties because of fears that are largely imaginary.
I beseech you, enjoy this wonderful world, do not succumb to media hysteria and to the fould blandishments of Tony Blair of that Ilk.
In a couple of years time you will feel ashamed of yourselves and ashamed of these archived messages. Now go away to Church and read the Sermon on the Mount (the Middle East again!)
Slight difference between the IRA ad Al-Queada - the Irish did try and restrict their bombings to faintly military targets, did give warnings (sometimes), did not strike at anything with faintly US connections (a big source of support & $$$) did not practice suicide bombings etc.
If yu think they are the same think again - the only commonality between the two s the word "terrorist".
I will turn down the request to go and read a book which is a work of fiction and one which has caused endless misery through the ages...
We after all are the quiet. Christian folk who pulverized Hiroshima and Nagasaki. We invented Napalm and used it too. Our torturers are evey bit as ingenious as theirss.
The mood emanating from the caithness org is one of paranoia.
Listen, guys we survived the IRA, what the heck can Al Kaida have on offer?
But it's not enough to survive if that means creeping like sleechit wee beasties because of fears that are largely imaginary.
I beseech you, enjoy this wonderful world, do not succumb to media hysteria and to the fould blandishments of Tony Blair of that Ilk.
In a couple of years time you will feel ashamed of yourselves and ashamed of these archived messages. Now go away to Church and read the Sermon on the Mount (the Middle East again!)
Rich, I am not a Christian or a Muslim or any of that ilk, my choice and I am not ramming it down anybodys throat, so blaming me for the Atom Bomb and Napalm being invented does not equate
I welcome immigrants to the UK, we have an influx of Eastern Europeans
into the Uk at the moment, here in Edinburgh its is mostly Polish young folk in their twenties. they in a very short time have intigrated into our Scottish way of life by opening their own shops and resturants selling Polish goods, providing a new taste to some of my menus. I work with a few of them already, and they are a hard working bunch. And they respect our way of life and obey our laws, with that I have no problem. What I have a problem with is Immigrants that come here and demand because they are of a different persuasion that I and my country must change our laws and our ways to suit them.
We have had a Muslim community in Scotland for years, even in Stornaway where the young Muslims speak Gaelic as well as Urdu or what ever, I even remember a Bookie in Thurso called Walli Mohammed, so we can intigrate.
So if you want to come to the UK do as we do, not as you want.
And I agree with Madpict on your suggested reading
j4bberw0ck
17-Aug-06, 09:56
figure out just how it will be written up in history books for kids say in 20 or 30 years time.
I can't find it now, but I read the other day that based on current trends, in 20 - 30 years time Muslims will be the majority of people in the UK aged under 25 :eek: . Who knows what the history books will say by then, since they're written by the victors, as Winston Churchill observed.
Kingetter
17-Aug-06, 10:03
I can't find it now, but I read the other day that based on current trends, in 20 - 30 years time Muslims will be the majority of people in the UK aged under 25 :eek: . Who knows what the history books will say by then, since they're written by the victors, as Winston Churchill observed.
I know that History today is taught very differently than 'when I was at school' whenever that was.
Whitewater
17-Aug-06, 11:39
I have read this thread with interest, many views and opinions, all valid and coming from each individuals personal experience.
I have had Muslim friends for more than 40 years, been to family weddings and funerals. These were people who arrived here many years ago looking for a new and better life, done their best to integrate into the community and respected our way of life and laws, while at the same time keeping their own traditions alive. Nothing different from the immigrants to the USA, Canada, Australia or New Zealand,(to name but a few) of the many countries where Scottish, Irish, English and Welch immigrants settled to make a better life, adapted to the new life and laws, while at the same time holding onto their own traditions and cultures.
Unfortunately there now appears to be a new breed Muslim emigrating around the world, they do not want to accept what we have, they want to take a backward step and take over our countries, change our way of life, control us using Sharia Law. There are too many extremists teaching in the Mosques, poisoning the minds of impressionable youngsters, and turning them into terrorists. But they lie to the suicide bombers. When they behead criminals in public (Saudi Arabia), they always ensure that they are facing Christians (infidels) so that they are the last thing they see, that according to their teaching ensures that they will not go to paridise. The last thing a suicide bomber has in his/her sight is an infidel, therefore according to their own teaching and laws there is no way the terrorist can be a martyr and gain entry to paradise.
There are many good and law abiding muslims in this country, they have to become more involved with their local community, and assist the authorities in weeding out the extremists.
I read somewhere recently "All Muslims are not terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims". It is a sad statement, but unfortunately it appears to be true at the present time.
Why do they hate us so much?, is it our way of life, our freedom of speech that offends them, our method of government where we can all vote and choose, our freedom and way of life that our ancestors fought and died for, I don't know. It seems to me that they are jealous of us, and don't want their own peoples to see how good life can be in places where tolerance and freedom exist.
pultneytooner
17-Aug-06, 13:26
I have read this thread with interest, many views and opinions, all valid and coming from each individuals personal experience.
I have had Muslim friends for more than 40 years, been to family weddings and funerals. These were people who arrived here many years ago looking for a new and better life, done their best to integrate into the community and respected our way of life and laws, while at the same time keeping their own traditions alive. Nothing different from the immigrants to the USA, Canada, Australia or New Zealand,(to name but a few) of the many countries where Scottish, Irish, English and Welch immigrants settled to make a better life, adapted to the new life and laws, while at the same time holding onto their own traditions and cultures.
Unfortunately there now appears to be a new breed Muslim emigrating around the world, they do not want to accept what we have, they want to take a backward step and take over our countries, change our way of life, control us using Sharia Law. There are too many extremists teaching in the Mosques, poisoning the minds of impressionable youngsters, and turning them into terrorists. But they lie to the suicide bombers. When they behead criminals in public (Saudi Arabia), they always ensure that they are facing Christians (infidels) so that they are the last thing they see, that according to their teaching ensures that they will not go to paridise. The last thing a suicide bomber has in his/her sight is an infidel, therefore according to their own teaching and laws there is no way the terrorist can be a martyr and gain entry to paradise.
There are many good and law abiding muslims in this country, they have to become more involved with their local community, and assist the authorities in weeding out the extremists.
I read somewhere recently "All Muslims are not terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims". It is a sad statement, but unfortunately it appears to be true at the present time.
Why do they hate us so much?, is it our way of life, our freedom of speech that offends them, our method of government where we can all vote and choose, our freedom and way of life that our ancestors fought and died for, I don't know. It seems to me that they are jealous of us, and don't want their own peoples to see how good life can be in places where tolerance and freedom exist. The question you have to ask is why do they want to come to britain in the first place?
Is it so as they can have a better life away from an oppressive regime and enjoy as you say, the freedoms and tolerance that some countries have or do they wish to impose their lifestyle and beliefs on others, spreading the word so to speak?
Whitewater
17-Aug-06, 14:23
I think there are two aswers.
Firstly the people who settled here 40 of 50 years ago did come for a better life, and have enjoyed the freedoms of the west. They were a very hard working people and established many small business's which provided for themselves and their families, they were no burden on anybody. Also many proffesional people arrived, doctors, dentists, lawers etc. all worked hard, done well for themselves and settled into western society.
I now think that there is another reason for coming to this country, (more recent imigrants) and it is, perhaps as you say, to impose their beliefs and culture on the west. All the clerics and religous leaders that are arriving here now do not have the same pride or self will as their predecessors, they are quite happy to scrounge of the state, while at the same time condemn the style of life and system that is keeping them alive. They are simply a bunch of hypocrites, lyers and bullies, who use the human rights act to their own ends while in this country, but want to impose rule and law where there are no human rights and never will be.
Most posters on this thread seem to think that immigrants are just fine so long as they dont cause any trouble.
I have news for you.
We live in troubled times.
There is a war in the middle east that has been going on for 60 years. There is an undeclared war between India and Pakistan that has been going on ever since Partition. The Far East Muslim world is in turmoil.
At the same time distances are shrinking like never before thanks to high speed passenger aircraft.
ALso please note that we in the West - USA and UK - are vigorous participants in all of this conflict. We have evangelical Christians who have the capacity to be every bit as murderous as Jihad participants. OUr troops, our administrators, our accountants have waded in blood up their armpits to secure economic gain for the more exploitative areas of our economies.
SO there is nothing uniquely dreadful about Muslim terrorists. The IRA certainly had contingency plans to blow up passenger jets - or were they just joking each time they snarled up traffic at at Heathrow with claims that bombs were aboard?
None of us can evade our complicity in the current mess. So do I have a solution. No - bit would help a lot if we remembered the basic values of being good neighbors.
And for erstwhile upholders of the Christian way of life who believe that the Sermon on the Mount is a fiction then may I refer you to the famous statment that those without sin should cast the first stone.
There's too many stones and too many greenhouses in this debate.
No, you may be a quiet Chrisitan who bombed Hiroshima - not me...
Is rich not using the word "Christian" to apply to a cultural environment rather than a personal belief system? Most of us were too young or not yet born in the 1940s so we couldn't have had any direct responsibility for anything that happened in WWII. I think he is using the word "Christian" in contrast to "Muslim" which has been slung around this thread pretty loosely.
I have read this thread with interest, many views and opinions, all valid and coming from each individuals personal experience.
I have had Muslim friends for more than 40 years, been to family weddings and funerals. These were people who arrived here many years ago looking for a new and better life, done their best to integrate into the community and respected our way of life and laws, while at the same time keeping their own traditions alive. Nothing different from the immigrants to the USA, Canada, Australia or New Zealand,(to name but a few) of the many countries where Scottish, Irish, English and Welch immigrants settled to make a better life, adapted to the new life and laws, while at the same time holding onto their own traditions and cultures.
Immigration today is very different than the state of immigration when my ancestors came to Canada. It was the Scottish and English and French who were the dominant settlers in the earliest years. In Quebec it was Francophone laws which were brought to the new land. In Upper Canada, the laws, traditions, culture and church (yes church, Christian church) of England and Scotland became the primary basis of life in the new country. (Except of course for the Native American societies, but that is a separate issue.) English law became the established law. Immigrants (English immigrants) brought their "stuff" and it became the way of life in the new land. So, in Quebec, French settlers brought their laws and they two were the law of the land. Even to this day Quebec has a different legal structure than the rest of the country. (Another separate issue.) British and French immigrants had to adapt to the weather in the new land, but they had very little law adapting to do. Even today, there is not much adapting to the law and culture that needs to happen when immigrants come from France or the UK. And goodness knows the church is declining in North America at as rapid a rate as it is in the UK and France, so no adaptation in that aspect of their lives either.
Where I am going with this is to say that modern immigration from other cultures is very different from the immigration experiences of the British and French in Canada. British immigrants come to, have always come to a way of life very similar to what they had at home.
j4bberw0ck
17-Aug-06, 15:20
None of us can evade our complicity in the current mess. So do I have a solution. No - bit would help a lot if we remembered the basic values of being good neighbors.
All that you write, rich, is just window-dressing and side issues. The question is, are Muslims (or any other religious or political grouping) to be allowed special rights or special laws just because they don't like some aspects of our national laws?
The answer - regardless of what's happening in Iraq, Lebanon, Afghanistan, India, Pakistan or anywhere else - needs to be "no" until a democratic political process has been gone through to give a mandate for the change. That means that Muslims (or any other etc etc) who want to live under certain laws or rules need to field political candidates who are elected on the strength of their manifesto.
If they find it unacceptable to use political process because of ideology, then they should ask themselves whether this is the right place for them to be, not head off on a bombing spree.
At the moment, Muslims are in the minority and could not vote such changes through. So, if they don't like what's here they should again consider moving on or living with it; they have no more right to blow upbuildings or tube trains or aircraft than I do. If in 20-30 years they are in the majority and vote changes through, then I'm afraid it falls to the rest of us to decide whether we should move on or live with it.
The moral of the story is to use your vote, to deal ruthlessly with people who want to bomb their way to change, and communicate with politicians to get the message across to groups who want a theocracy (whether Islamic or Christian - they're both the same) that this country is not up for that change until a majority vote for it.
Hopefully, that'll be never.
I read somewhere recently "All Muslims are not terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims". It is a sad statement, but unfortunately it appears to be true at the present time.
This very point was put to a spokesman for the UK Muslims on BBC News 24 only the other day, by ne of the BBC's top news frontmen. I was surprised he had the backbone to say such a thing but the Muslim spokesman didn't really have an answer.
Canuck,
We after all are the quiet Christian folk who pulverized Hiroshima and Nagasaki. We invented Napalm and used it too. Our torturers are evey bit as ingenious as theirss.
If Rich feels guilty as a Christian for the US developing the Atomic bomb and Napalm then let him carry the cross of guilt.
I am most certainly not a quiet christian - I am a quiet Atheist!!!
Enough has been said about the use of Atomic weapons in other threads but now he introduces napalm? Is he going to hit us with every other weapon of war as well? What about the longbow? The crossbow? That allowed more arrows to be fired that the previous weapon!
Or how about the very first 'human' who picked up a stone or branch in anger....or without sin? [lol]
I am most certainly not a quiet christian - I am a quiet Atheist!!!
[lol]
The point is not your individual faith, it is the general cultural environment of the society at the time of WWII.
Of course you need not feel guilty. I don't, I wasn't born then. I think that the point is that all societies do some pretty horrendous things in the name of religion or cultural protection or self defense.
pultneytooner
17-Aug-06, 18:04
Most posters on this thread seem to think that immigrants are just fine so long as they dont cause any trouble. That would be the most sensible attitude to take.
I have news for you.
We live in troubled times.
There is a war in the middle east that has been going on for 60 years. There is an undeclared war between India and Pakistan that has been going on ever since Partition. The Far East Muslim world is in turmoil. How should this affect mulsims living in britain, does it justify extremists plotting to blow up passenger aircraft or bombing tube stations?
We have evangelical Christians who have the capacity to be every bit as murderous as Jihad participants.
Agreed.
OUr troops, our administrators, our accountants have waded in blood up their armpits to secure economic gain for the more exploitative areas of our economies.
SO there is nothing uniquely dreadful about Muslim terrorists. The IRA certainly had contingency plans to blow up passenger jets - or were they just joking each time they snarled up traffic at at Heathrow with claims that bombs were aboard? Nothing unique but every bit as vile and detestable as any other terrorist.
None of us can evade our complicity in the current mess. I and millions of others can evade complicity, we are not responsible for the murderous attitudes of others.
So do I have a solution. No - bit would help a lot if we remembered the basic values of being good neighbors.
I think most people understand the concept of basic human kindness
I think more people than you give credit to remember those basic values.
And for erstwhile upholders of the Christian way of life who believe that the Sermon on the Mount is a fiction then may I refer you to the famous statment that those without sin should cast the first stone.
There's too many stones and too many greenhouses in this debate.
Everybody sins but I have never tried to bomb an aeroplane so I think I am within my rights to cast a few stones in that direction.;)
Hopefully, that'll be never.
Chings, I'm agreeing with the Orc.(Friendly family name for those who live in Orkney)[evil]
Let's deal first with J4bberwock who proclaims:
All that you write, rich, is just window-dressing and side issues. The question is, are Muslims (or any other religious or political grouping) to be allowed special rights or special laws just because they don't like some aspects of our national laws?
The answer - regardless of what's happening in Iraq, Lebanon, Afghanistan, India, Pakistan or anywhere else - needs to be "no" until a democratic political process has been gone through to give a mandate for the change. That means that Muslims (or any other etc etc) who want to live under certain laws or rules need to field political candidates who are elected on the strength of their manifesto.
************************************************** **
Your argument would be bit sturdier if it had more data behind it. To what special, national rights and laws are you referring? Could you give me some examples- even one would do. Your idea of the motivation of Muslims leaves me perplexed. What aspects of our national laws is causing them to agitate?
I note with a certain sadness that you paid no attention whatsoever to the examples I gave you of racial hysteria in British history from Yellow Peril to Roman Catholiscism although these are very apt parallels to much of today's anti-Muslim rhetoric.
Your comments about Muslims being listened to when they have a mandate decided by a general election is truly an echo from the past. This was the criticism levelled at the Irish by the English. When the Irish took the hint and established a political party that became the official opposition in the House of Commons, the fury of the press knew no bounds. Subversive terrorists indeed! I suspect folk like yourself would be more steamed up than ever. Of course if you are looking for examples of democratically elected "terrorists" (to use your phrase) we need look no further than Hezbolla. DO you approve of those guys? Thought not....
As for this mandate for change nonsense why shouldn't Muslims be allowed to pracice their religion any damn way they please? Like the Catholics, the Methodists, the Baptists, the Seventh Day Adventists, the Mormons, the Church of Scientology, the Unitarians and, God help us all - the Church of Scotland.
Because Muslims are violent you argue? And Pat Robinson or Ian Paisley? What are they???? Indeed if you want violence tip toe across the floor of the local library when no-one is looking and pull down this big black book. WHoops, what can it be?
The Holy Bible!
Holy Jabbers!
This whole thing is a bloodbath. Amalikites slaughtered, Sodom and Gomorrha razed to the ground, and on and on. Do you seriously suggest that no Presbyterian minister has ever used this as the basis of a sermon?
If so should we close him down until he can form a political party devoted to denouncing Sodomites in British society.
But of course he would be shielded by the pervasive double standard that is so prevalent in "our" country
Your argument would be bit sturdier if it had more data behind it. To what special, national rights and laws are you referring? Could you give me some examples- even one would do.
Sharia Law is the main one - within Sharia Law there are Hadd Offences.
Hadd offences carry specific penalties, set by the Koran and by the prophet Mohammed. These include unlawful sexual intercourse (outside marriage); false accusation of unlawful intercourse; the drinking of alcohol; theft; and highway robbery. Sexual offences carry a penalty of stoning to death or flogging while theft is punished with cutting off a hand. http://www.guardian.co.uk/theissues/article/0,6512,777972,00.html
Now, tell us that you would approve of Muslims in the UK being subject to such a harsh law. And a law, that if forced upon the citizens of the UK would mean any non-Muslim would be treated less favourably than a Muslim. So where a Muslim might get 100 lashes, you might get something chopped off....
...and if it was a hand or two, you'd have a hell of a job winding us all up....
j4bberw0ck
17-Aug-06, 20:25
Chings, I'm agreeing with the Orc.(Friendly family name for those who live in Orkney)
http://www.fadbeens.co.uk/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_woohoo.gifhttp://www.fadbeens.co.uk/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_thud.gif
<sings> Oh happy day, Oh happy daaaaay </sings>
Was that the Edwin Hawkins Singers of many years ago? I was (still am) a blues / Led Zeppelin man myself so memory may be a little vague........
j4bberw0ck
17-Aug-06, 20:34
Rich, forgive me but I still think you're missing the point. In contemporary Britain even the Wee Frees (or the wee Wee Frees, or even the wee Wee Wee Frees) don't start giving ultimata to government about changing things to suit them, no matter how hard-line their interpretation of the Bible. And they are some, ah, extremist folk. Neither have I noticed any of their respective flocks running off to bomb Calmac as a protest against foreign policy.
So my point is, regardless of the content of Holy Books, the utterances of prophets or even the alleged marginalisation of their adherents, there's only one group who's wanting special treatment. They want the blasphemy laws reinstated to make it an offence to contradict or mock Islamic teachings. They want Sharia law. 24% of them appear to believe suicide bombing can be morally justified.
They need to understand that in this country, we grew out of all that stuff about 400 years ago. Our society and legal framework is different. And they need to do as Romans do, when in Rome. Or move on.
Simple. Or it should be.
Still OK so far, G2? ;)
Hi, Guys, thanks for rhe news flashes from Nigeria.
I am scanning the British papers for reports of stoning and lashing let alone hand suffering.
Nothing!
Speaking as an ex-cyclist I was initially in favour of hand severing for SUV drivers - dangerous group especially when driving while taking calls on their cell phones. Then I realized they would carry on driving one handed.
So I went back to being tolerant.
JB I have to ask you: do you really think any sane group of muslims in the UK wants to introduce the medieval barbarities currently being practised in Muslim Africa?
Not a chance, not a hope.
Now I have an intersting post coming up....
Rich,
While the "news flashes" were from Nigeria, Sharia Law is relevant across all countries that follow Islam. Some countries embrace it more than others and some replace the stonings/amputations/hangings with less terminal forms of punishment or more severe prison sentences.
It is still a barbaric way to treat your followers IMHO.....
For your information: the results of the (in)famous Channel 4 Dispatches survey are here (http://www.imaginate.uk.com/MCC01_SURVEY/Site%20Download.pdf), and there's an analysis of the results by an allegedly-controversial journalist here (http://www.channel4.com/news/microsites/D/dispatches2006/muslim_survey/muslims.html).
The results of the survey reveal a diverse range of opinions amongst Britain's Muslim community. On the whole, I would say it's not too discouraging, but there are some causes for concern amongst liberals and conservatives alike. C'est la vie...
Here is the articlke I mentioned. I hope the URL takes you right through. It is from SPIKED and is by the editor, a brainy guy who cultivates the all-but-dead art of seeing politics from all points of view- a somewhat under-practiced skill on the Org these days.
If the URL doesn't work go to google and type in political science daily.
http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/1485/
Islamic terrorism is real. But the notion of an Islamic terrorist threat to society is the product of our own insecure imaginations. It is a symptom of a society that has lost its way, lost a sense of certainty about itself, and feels unusually vulnerable. In Britain, for example, the great uniting projects of the past, from the Empire through to the construction of welfare state and the Cold War, have all gone, and nothing has replaced them as yet. (The USA, too, in different ways has experienced a loss of its sense of historic mission.) Our society often appears to be made up of atomised individuals and competing ‘cultural identities’. We are unsure of what might unite us, and what we are prepared to stand for together. Thus there is much talk of the need to teach children ‘common values’, but little idea as to what those values might be.
Such an uncertain society makes a fertile breeding ground for overblown cultural anxieties, whether about bird flu, global warming or Islamic terrorism. A fatalistic sense of being powerless to deal with these problems makes us wary of taking any risks. So the authorities devote their energies to imagining ‘what if?’ worst-case scenarios and taking ‘precautionary measures’ that only do more damage. Home secretary John Reid, for example, trying to explain the need to maintain high levels of vigilance and security at the weekend, declared that, ‘There could be others out there, perhaps people we don’t know, perhaps people involved in other plots’. Basing security policy on such speculation about what ‘could…perhaps…perhaps’ happen seems like a recipe for permanent paralysis.
Islamic terrorism is real. But the notion of an Islamic terrorist threat to society is the product of our own insecure imaginations. It is a symptom of a society that has lost its way, lost a sense of certainty about itself, and feels unusually vulnerable.
I was convinced that you were actually talking about Islamic society until you mentioned the West.
But I do think that Islamic societies have really lost their way and identities more so than the West.
percy toboggan
17-Aug-06, 21:33
This country is a slightly more dangerous, more unsettled and ill at ease with itself place to live because of mass immigration which has accelerated to a crescendo in recent years.
To deny this is to deny truth. An unmanaged, unplanned system which has been exploited by economic migrants both legitimate (the EU) and from Africa, Asia, Australasia and even the U.S.A.
We need to ensure that the people who come now are truly needed. That they have a knowledge of Britain and that they speak the language. That their religious baggage is subject to the same scrutiny as their airline holdall.
No island nation can continue to absorb the numbers which have m,ade for these shores in recent years without consequences -most of them negative - for the indigenous population both black & white.
Unemployment is UP. Yet there are more people in work than ever. The main beneficiaries of immigration are the immigrants themselves. Good luck to them but THIS IS BRITAIN. Remember , and tread lightly on our customs and our tolerance.
The mildest worm turns late, but turn she will. Unless enough, is deemed enough !
Percy, surely the decision on emigration is up to the EC. Sorry if I am missing something here...
Furthemore, Percy that phrase about religious baggage just stinks to high heaven.
I will admit to being a little perplexed by the opinions of some members of the Muslim community, but what really puzzles me is why the word Moderator appears under my name in my posts on here. :confused:
Perhaps I am headed towards becoming the number one Imam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imam) of the Church of Scotland in a future Islamic Republic of Britain. :eek:
But I doubt it somehow... I have a feeling that this refers only to minor magical powers having been endowed on me in the chat, but not on the forum or in society itself. More's the pity.
I guess I should ask the admin...
You and Golach have both been elevated to this giddy station - I noted his new title this afternoon....
Look for extra drop menus at the foot of the pages or on the menu bar - "Stone Member", "Flog Member" and "Hang Member" are not usually part of the Mods new tools....
percy toboggan
17-Aug-06, 22:06
Furthemore, Percy that phrase about religious baggage just stinks to high heaven.
that's either a half-decent pun or a suggestion that you have a hyper-sensitive snout.
percy toboggan
17-Aug-06, 22:10
Percy, surely the decision on emigration is up to the EC. Sorry if I am missing something here...
THe EC no longer exists. I'm not sure what you mean here? You mean the EU should decide who can emigrate to Britain, temporarily or otherwise? Anyone from any member state can come here to live . This is not the case in France, or Germany and a few others. We agreed to let all the new accession states have entry and working rights. Good eh? Not really, not if you're at the bottom of the skills ladder. Not good at all.
(I believe people at the very bottom of the 'skills ladder' as just as valid human beings as those at the very top)
Of course you are correct, Percy. No longer a resident of the UK I am not up to speed on the latest set of letters by which Europe the ever-expanding designates its mission.
However, I would be very surprised if Germany and France have obtained anything more than a bit of breathing space before they must follow the British example.
ANd what happens when Turkey joins? That will cause the Euro/Muslim population to soar. And I think that is a thoroughly good thing!
I should tell you that last year I was rummaging through my sock drawer here in Toronto and lo and behold there was my old British passport (with an embarrasingly youthful picture of myself). SO, to cut a long story short when I was in Edinburgh I went in to the office where they issue birth certificates - just behind the Duke of Wellington (Statue not Pub)
There I received a copy of my birth certificate endorsed with a business-like stamp.
So now I am a citizen of Europe. SO I am a Canadian-British-French-Spanish-Portugese-Dutch- Polish - I could go on and on - citizen.
Now it so happens that my Grandma was Australian. Can I add Australia New Zealand - Togo - and assorted attols to my burgeoning list of countries who have a claim on my allegiance?
And my current wife is a citizen of the USA and Jamaica and assorted islands in the Caribbean. If I had any money we would set up a tax haven and reside on some sunny beach with lots of drinks with little umbrellas in them.
My point is this. Nationalism is finished, kaput, tits-up, stone cold dead
The world is becoming a khaki hued place, given the loose morals of we humans.
So why alarm yourselves about Muslims? It all seems disproportionate to me.
ANyway, Percy next time you are in Canada or the USA or Jamaica or Lithuania or Norway do give me a call and we can chat about the good old days in Caithness where the most exotic characters to fret about were the English and a scattering of Welsh.
j4bberw0ck
18-Aug-06, 16:43
Nationalism is finished, kaput, stone cold dead
The world is becoming a khaki hued place, given the loose morals of we humans.
So why alarm yourselves about Muslims? It all seems disproportionate to me.
Ah, silly me. That's where I went wrong. We weren't talking about Sharia Law and terrorism at all - I must have dreamed I read it. It was nationalism all along! And how nice to be able to make all these observations from a faraway place with a land area of 10 million km2, a population about the same as London plus Birmingham plus Manchester plus Paris, and an apparent determination not to get involved in anything.........
Germany and France, by the way, have far larger immigrant populations than the UK. The Germans are having an uneasy time because of the influx of Turkish workers and people from places ending in -stan. They require immigrants to take an oath of loyalty and to be able to speak German. The French are having fun with their Muslim population because they want their children to wear jilbabs and burq'aas to school and have segregated changing areas to "preserve modesty" when changing for gym or whatever. The French government has simply responded by stating that France and its State education system is strictly secular and symbols of religious faith are not allowed in schools. No crucifixes, no crescents, no turbans, no jilbabs etc etc. On the whole, I approve of both countries measures.
Percy, here's what I call home:
Toronto, with a population of 2.48 million people ( 5 million in the GTA - Greater Toronto Area ) is heralded as one of the most multicultural cities in the world and is ranked as the safest large metropolitan area in North America by Places Rated Almanac. Over 100 languages and dialects are spoken here, and over one third of Toronto residents speak a language other than English at home.
Between 2001 and 2005, the Toronto CMA attracted an average of 107,000 international immigrants each year, The City of Toronto welcomed two thirds (69,000).
43 per cent of Toronto's population (1,051,125 people) reported themselves as being part of a visible minority, up from 37 per cent (882,330) in 1996.
the top four visible minority groups in Toronto were:
Chinese at 259,710 or 10.6 per cent of our population
South Asian at 253,920 or 10.3 per cent
Black at 204,075 or 8.3 per cent
Filipino at 86,460 or 3.5 per cent
49 per cent of Toronto's population was born outside of Canada, up from 48 per cent in 1996
new immigrants to Toronto since 1991 number 516,635, representing 21 per cent of our population.
fully one in five Toronto residents arrived in this country during the 1990s
one in four children between 5 and 16 in the City of Toronto are new immigrants having arrived between 1991 and 2001
while the City of Toronto had 48.7 per cent of the GTA's population in 2001, we were home to:
57.8 per cent of all GTA immigrants (1,214,625)
64.4 per cent of all new immigrants that arrived in the GTA during the 1990s (516,635)
60.4 per cent of all GTA residents identified as belonging to a visible minority (1,051,125)
Toronto has 79 ethnic publications
Toronto's reported Aboriginal population is 11,370, up from the 9,895 reported in 1996.
Visible Minorities
across Canada there has been a three-fold increase since 1981 in people who identify themselves as visible minorities - up from 1.1 million in 1981 to almost 4 million in 2001. "Visible minority" is defined by Statistics Canada as "persons, other than Aboriginal peoples, who are non-Caucasian in race or non-white in colour".
in 2001 three-quarters of immigrants who came to Canada during the 1990s were members of visible minority groups.
Ethnic Origin
Regardless of where people were born, or when they came to Canada, everyone reports on their ethnic background or heritage. Respondents are permitted to report more than one ethnic origin if appropriate and this is happening more frequently. People more likely to report multiple origins include those from European backgrounds whose ancestors have lived in Canada for several generations. In general, groups with a more recent history in Canada were more likely to report single responses. Looking only at single ethnic origins, the most prevalent backgrounds in the City of Toronto other than the British Isles are:
Chinese at 242,920 - a 16 per cent increase over 1996
Italian at 138,715 - a decline of 13 per cent
East Indian at 133,670 - a 25 per cent increase
Filipino at 76,405 - a 31 per cent increase
Portuguese at 75,800 - a 5 per cent decline
pultneytooner
18-Aug-06, 18:14
You would make a fantastic politician, rich, totally evading the issues at hand.;)
What about Oman As in "Oh man, I can't believe you cut my hand off for stealing an orange!"
Thanks to that country's progress in human rights, now it's citizens can choose which hand you cut off.
Nationalism is finished, kaput, tits-up, stone cold dead
Not quite, almost, but not quite. And it is the last gasps at life's breath that is the source of so much division, fear and acting out (ie military campaigns) in our world today.
Once nationalism is fully dead we will be able to move on to a new nursery for the DNA (I know I am mixing threads, but it is all the same contributors.)
But until we get to wherever it is that the world is going there will be a strident effort to keep alive the remnants of nationalism. Some of those efforts are motivated by a sense of honour for the really good things that once were, some of it is simply loyalty, some of it is a fear of loosing power, some of it is a sense of helplessness in the face of the unknown.
percy toboggan
18-Aug-06, 19:42
In a couple of years time you will feel ashamed of yourselves and ashamed of these archived messages. (the Middle East again!)
I wouldn't put money on it chum.
I will admit to being a little perplexed by the opinions of some members of the Muslim community, but what really puzzles me is why the word Moderator appears under my name in my posts on here. :confused:
Perhaps I am headed towards becoming the number one Imam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imam) of the Church of Scotland in a future Islamic Republic of Britain.
But I doubt it somehow... I have a feeling that this refers only to minor magical powers having been endowed on me in the chat, but not on the forum or in society itself. More's the pity.
I guess I should ask the admin...
Ahh! All hail and praise to the Moderator! (deep bow towards monitor screen and tugging of forelock). Congrats, DrSzin. :D
percy toboggan
18-Aug-06, 20:47
Rich: I just spotted your replies. I'm glad you are happy in Toronto. It sounds like a fair place to live. I've only passed through - in 2000 and paid eight quid for two pints of beer at the airport bar. My car keys are held together with a Toronto key ring! par for the course for 'tourists' I s'pose. It's a good one - embossed with that high tower you have there.
The mutli-cultural mix seems to work for you. I'm glad. You're happy , make the most of it. Canada is a peripheral but unimportant amorphous lump of land whose government has the good sense to keep its nose out of most conflicts of late. Leaving you all to contemplate your good luck.
Seems you let in all and sundry yet I'd have no chance. Funny that - or maybe you see it as selectivism. I'm savvy enough to have a laugh at this. Maybe I should buy a one way ticket and claim asylum - as part of an oppressed minority here. White /taxpaying /Christian origins/ str8/able bodied (ish)...on second thoughts with beer at those prices I'll stay put!
pultneytooner
18-Aug-06, 20:51
Rich: I just spotted your replies. I'm glad you are happy in Toronto. It sounds like a fair place to live. I've only passed through - in 2000 and paid eight quid for two pints of beer at the airport bar. My car keys are held together with a Toronto key ring! par for the course for 'tourists' I s'pose. It's a good one - embossed with that high tower you have there.
The mutli-cultural mix seems to work for you. I'm glad. You're happy , make the most of it. Canada is a peripheral but unimportant amorphous lump of land whose government has the good sense to keep its nose out of most conflicts of late. Leaving you all to contemplate your good luck.
Seems you let in all and sundry yet I'd have no chance. Funny that - or maybe you see it as selectivism. I'm savvy enough to have a laugh at this. Maybe I should buy a one way ticket and claim asylum - as part of an oppressed minority here. White /taxpaying /Christian origins/ str8/able bodied (ish)...on second thoughts with beer at those prices I'll stay put!
The beer is priced for the tourists.:lol:
Nationalism is finished, kaput, tits-up, stone cold dead
.
Rich your 3rd reference is not appropriate, do you need to make lewd remarks like that? a man of your caliber ?
Rich your 3rd reference is not appropriate, do you need to make lewd remarks like that? a man of your caliber ?
It's a pity that our esteemed moderator has decided to take his new title more serious than perhaps the administrators had intended. It also serves as a warning to those of us who need to moderate our real natures when we use the messageboards of Caithness.org.
I see the above post in the same way as I see a footballer calling for the dismissal of his opponent for a cynical foul.
Wise up Golach or you will be treading the boards of Caithness.org, alone.
The question you have to ask is why do they want to come to britain in the first place?
Is it so as they can have a better life away from an oppressive regime and enjoy as you say, the freedoms and tolerance that some countries have or do they wish to impose their lifestyle and beliefs on others, spreading the word so to speak?
It seems to be the young muslims, born in britain, who have never had to suffer the oppression their parents fled from.
It's a pity that our esteemed moderator has decided to take his new title more serious than perhaps the administrators had intended. It also serves as a warning to those of us who need to moderate our real natures when we use the messageboards of Caithness.org.
I see the above post in the same way as I see a footballer calling for the dismissal of his opponent for a cynical foul.
Wise up Golach or you will be treading the boards of Caithness.org, alone.
Gleeber for your information, I am not repeat not a messageboard moderator I am a chatroom moderator.
My comments to Rich was my personal view, I rarely use words of that nature in my own speech, and I never use them in script.
It's a pity that our esteemed moderator has decided to take his new title more serious than perhaps the administrators had intended. It also serves as a warning to those of us who need to moderate our real natures when we use the messageboards of Caithness.org.
I see the above post in the same way as I see a footballer calling for the dismissal of his opponent for a cynical foul.
Wise up Golach or you will be treading the boards of Caithness.org, alone.
In another post, our brave new moderator told some-one off for making a joke, at Golach's expense, about his new position of 'bad cop'. "Don't make cheap jokes at my expence" that some-one (Scorrie) was told. Have we now got to live to Golach's moral and egotistical standards. Perhaps we will only have to watch our behaviour on weekend nights after the hostelry closes.:roll:
I had a similar response a week ago when I made a wee friendly joke at the Jokers's expense.
He who throws stones should not get annoyed when some one throws them back.
pultneytooner
19-Aug-06, 10:41
It seems to be the young muslims, born in britain, who have never had to suffer the oppression their parents fled from.
If they try to get sharia law introduced in britain they will soon find out why their parents fled their homelands.
Dreadnought
19-Aug-06, 10:42
I think the Australian response, while strongly worded, is what the majority in the West are thinking, whether they want to admit it or not. The simple fact is people have a choice. If you don't like the country you live in and it's culture, then move to a country which suits you. That doesn't just go for Muslims, it goes for everyone.
Ps. There were some Great Tits in my garden this morning, also, with the weather cooling a bit, some Blue Tits. It is lovely to sit and watch them on the feeder.
Ps. There were some Great Tits in my garden this morning, also, with the weather cooling a bit, some Blue Tits. It is lovely to sit and watch them on the feeder.
Careful, we are not to use the word Tit anymore.
Dreadnought
19-Aug-06, 12:31
Careful, we are not to use the word Tit anymore.
Then I'd best not mention the rare sighting near our local beach last year of a Shag. Oops.
Then I'd best not mention the rare sighting near our local beach last year of a Shag. Oops.
Smut alert!!!!! Call in the Orgcops!!!!
Have we now got to live to Golach's moral and egotistical standards.
Gleber2, we have had to live with your egotistical mumbo jumbo also
Kingetter
19-Aug-06, 14:15
Then I'd best not mention the rare sighting near our local beach last year of a Shag. Oops.
Fancy a visit to the Doghouse?
I am striving to keep abreast of events!
pultneytooner
19-Aug-06, 14:34
Proud to Be Canadian!!!
A VERY TRUE AND NOBLE STATEMENT
One of my sons serves in the army. He is still here in Canada .
He called me yesterday to let me know how warm and welcoming
people were to him and his fellow soldiers everywhere he goes, telling
me how people shake their hands and thank them for being willing to serve
and fight, for not only our own freedoms but so that others may have them also.
But he also told me about an incident in the grocers' shop
he stopped at yesterday, on his way home from the barracks. He said that ahead
of several people in front of him stood a woman dressed in a burkha.
He said when she got to the checkout she loudly remarked about the Canadian Flag lapel
badge the cashier wore on her blouse. The cashier reached up and
touched the badge, and said proudly," Yes, I always wear it and probably
always will." The woman in the burkha then asked the cashier when she
was going to stop bombing her countrymen, explaining that she was Iraqi. A
gentleman standing behind my son stepped forward, putting his arm around
my son's shoulders, and nodding towards my son, said in a calm and gentle
voice to the Iraqi woman: Lady, hundreds of thousands of men and women like
this young man have fought and died so that YOU could stand here, in MY
country and accuse a check-out cashier of bombing YOUR countrymen. It is my
belief that had you been this outspoken in YOUR own country, we wouldn't need
to be there today. But, hey, if you have now learned how to speak out so loudly
and clearly, I'll gladly buy you a ticket and pay your way back to Iraq
so you can straighten out the mess in YOUR country that you are obviously
here, in MY, country to avoid." Everyone within hearing distance cheered![/quote]
Couldn't agree more.
Kingetter
19-Aug-06, 14:38
Proud to Be Canadian!!!
A VERY TRUE AND NOBLE STATEMENT
One of my sons serves in the army. He is still here in Canada .
He called me yesterday to let me know how warm and welcoming
people were to him and his fellow soldiers everywhere he goes, telling
me how people shake their hands and thank them for being willing to serve
and fight, for not only our own freedoms but so that others may have them also.
But he also told me about an incident in the grocers' shop
he stopped at yesterday, on his way home from the barracks. He said that ahead
of several people in front of him stood a woman dressed in a burkha.
He said when she got to the checkout she loudly remarked about the Canadian Flag lapel
badge the cashier wore on her blouse. The cashier reached up and
touched the badge, and said proudly," Yes, I always wear it and probably
always will." The woman in the burkha then asked the cashier when she
was going to stop bombing her countrymen, explaining that she was Iraqi. A
gentleman standing behind my son stepped forward, putting his arm around
my son's shoulders, and nodding towards my son, said in a calm and gentle
voice to the Iraqi woman: Lady, hundreds of thousands of men and women like
this young man have fought and died so that YOU could stand here, in MY
country and accuse a check-out cashier of bombing YOUR countrymen. It is my
belief that had you been this outspoken in YOUR own country, we wouldn't need
to be there today. But, hey, if you have now learned how to speak out so loudly
and clearly, I'll gladly buy you a ticket and pay your way back to Iraq
so you can straighten out the mess in YOUR country that you are obviously
here, in MY, country to avoid." Everyone within hearing distance cheered!
Couldn't agree more.[/quote]
Ace! Absolutely! (And I'm proud to be a Canadian!)
Gleber2, we have had to live with your egotistical mumbo jumbo also
Na na na nana!!!!!!
Guys, I don't get it. There are no Canadian troops in Iraq. We have troops in Afghanistan. And when are we ever going to learn that we cannot impose democracy by brute force?
After WW II the allies were able to reconstruct Germany and Japan to be sure. But both these countries had a long history of free and democratic institutions. So the basic ground-structure was in place. This is not the case in the Middle East.
As for Iraq, this sudden conversion by the Republican party to creating democracy is pourely opportunistic. This is the USA that has enthusiastically endorsed police state governments all over Latin America!
I would also question how getting involved in Iraq and Afghanistan in any way defends western democracy.
And now I am bowing out of this thread. It was fun.
pultneytooner
19-Aug-06, 15:51
Guys, I don't get it. There are no Canadian troops in Iraq. We have troops in Afghanistan. And when are we ever going to learn that we cannot impose democracy by brute force?
After WW II the allies were able to reconstruct Germany and Japan to be sure. But both these countries had a long history of free and democratic institutions. So the basic ground-structure was in place. This is not the case in the Middle East.
As for Iraq, this sudden conversion by the Republican party to creating democracy is pourely opportunistic. This is the USA that has enthusiastically endorsed police state governments all over Latin America!
I would also question how getting involved in Iraq and Afghanistan in any way defends western democracy.
And now I am bowing out of this thread. It was fun.
Thirty-one Canadians are with U.S. and British troops in the Gulf as part of a military exchange, and a British army officer told CBC News that some of the Canadians are in combat.
Thirty-one Canadians are with U.S. and British troops in the Gulf as part of a military exchange, and a British army officer told CBC News that some of the Canadians are in combat.
Rich is right. Officially Canada is not bombing anything (thus anyone) in Iraq. But there are a handfull of Canadian troops doing exchanges with British and American units. Now, I cannot remember which uniforms they wear. I think they are the uniform of the country with whom they are serving and have a little Maple Leaf somewhere to designate their country of origin. There are also Canadians serving in foreign military situations because of their dual citizenship status. But again, they are not in Canadian forces uniforms.
pultneytooner
19-Aug-06, 18:27
Rich is right. Officially Canada is not bombing anything (thus anyone) in Iraq. But there are a handfull of Canadian troops doing exchanges with British and American units. Now, I cannot remember which uniforms they wear. I think they are the uniform of the country with whom they are serving and have a little Maple Leaf somewhere to designate their country of origin. There are also Canadians serving in foreign military situations because of their dual citizenship status. But again, they are not in Canadian forces uniforms.
Well, the story doesn't actually say that the soldier in question fought in iraq or of any involvement of canadian soldiers, just thousands of men and women like the soldier in the story.
As for canada not having any 'official' involvement in iraq is besides the point that there are still canadian soldiers there and no matter what uniform they are wearing they are still canadian soldiers.
I thought it was a great story and shows the kind of freedoms which immigrants have in western countries, i.e, the right to speak out against something they percieve as being wrong whereas in iraq, freedom of speach was practically nil, if it existed there at all.
Rich is right. Officially Canada is not bombing anything (thus anyone) in Iraq. But there are a handfull of Canadian troops doing exchanges with British and American units. Now, I cannot remember which uniforms they wear. I think they are the uniform of the country with whom they are serving and have a little Maple Leaf somewhere to designate their country of origin. There are also Canadians serving in foreign military situations because of their dual citizenship status. But again, they are not in Canadian forces uniforms.
I think your idea that Canada is not bombing anyone or anything is a bit misguided. some facts....
Canada produces more uranium than any other country on the planet.
After Nagasaki the Canadian public were informed that the uranium from Great Bear Lake in the NT and Montreal scientists played a very important
role indeed in the Anglo-Canadian-American Atomic Bomb Project - the largest secret project in human history.
Look up Mackenzie King and his "knowledge" of Canadas participation in production of the Bomb.
In 1940, the British figured out how to make an atomic bomb by enriching natural uranium... guess where they got the uranium from? Following Pearl Harbour, the Americans took over. Uranium for the world's first A-Bombs was refined at Port Hope for the U.S. Army. At first, it came from Great Bear Lake; later, from the Congo. Some of the uranium was enriched for the Hiroshima bomb; the rest was irradiated in the world's first nuclear reactors to produce plutonium for the Nagasaki bomb.
The first British bomb produced was made with plutonium from Canada's NRX reactor.
For twenty some years after Hiroshima, Canada sold plutonium produced in Chalk Riveer reactors to the US military to finance their nuclear research.
Canada ALSO gave India a clone of its NRX reactor.... which India used to produce plutonium for its first A-Bomb test in 1974.
Canada is also not against anyone possessing or using nuclear weapons or plutonium... infact they even support the NATO policy of "first use" of nuclear weapons.
I think you'll also find that most of the depleted uranium used in US weaponry is mostly from waste produced during uranium enrichment in Paducah, Kentucky who buys their uranium from Canada.
It's probably high time the Canadians got off the proverbial fence... hiding behind the nuclear war machines of the US and NATO whilst supporting the Non-Proliferation Treaty.
I do not think any of the Western nations can claim to be innocent.. and it's simply silly to say Canada is not bombing anyone or anything for that matter... cause I can assure you they are whether it is indirectly or not. But, far worse than that they are profitting heartily and perpetuating the mass murder of civilians, soldiers and even their own and allied soldiers from their contribution to the war machine.
To the topic of the thread..... you are kidding right? it is all a sick, weird, little joke isn't it? *shakes head in complete disbelief*[disgust]
The information is correct, I assume. But I don't know and I have no way of quickly checking it.
At to the 1974 reference, I remember the gifting of the technology to India for the purpose of developing its atomic energy program to provide electricity. At some point we have to suspend second guessing the use of gifts and interject some trust in our international relationships. In 1974 life was about 10cc, computers that took up the floor space of a small house and no one had ever heard of Iraq. It was impossible then to anticipate the world's situation as it is now.
I know that Canada has developed an industry around processing its uranium deposits for export. Their singular intended destiny is the nuclear generating facilities of the world.
But that was not the point of my comment. It was directly in response to the facts of a story which pultneytooner had posted. I was agreeing with rich that Canada was not a participating nation in the Iraq conflict. Canada took much heat from the countries supporting the war when the government kept us out. Yet, the decision was made to leave in place those personnel who were in exchange positions so as to not interfere with the forces who were engaged in the conflict.
In our multi-connected life, none of us are free from some degree of responsibility in any atrocity that happens on the planet. Conversely, because of that connectedness, no matter how tenuous, we all have the opportunity to make a positive contribution to the peace and prosperity of humanity.
Chobbersjnr
21-Aug-06, 15:17
In our multi-connected life, none of us are free from some degree of responsibility in any atrocity that happens on the planet. Conversely, because of that connectedness, no matter how tenuous, we all have the opportunity to make a positive contribution to the peace and prosperity of humanity.
Beautifully put!!!!!!
Isjwahwah; " do not think any of the Western nations can claim to be innocent.. and it's simply silly to say Canada is not bombing anyone or anything for that matter... cause I can assure you they are whether it is indirectly or not. But, far worse than that they are profitting heartily and perpetuating the mass murder of civilians, soldiers and even their own and allied soldiers from their contribution to the war machine."
Oh dear she's back! "mass murder"? Please, please sjwahwah calm down, and PLEASE stop slinging allegations in all directions, particularly from the left..
Oh dear she's back! "mass murder"? Please, please sjwahwah calm down, and PLEASE stop slinging allegations in all directions, particularly from the left..
Even when she could be right?????
j4bberw0ck
21-Aug-06, 16:27
Even when she could be right?????
"Could be right", or "Is right", Gleber2?
"Could be right", or "Is right", Gleber2?
A lot of what this lady spouts is very sound and a lot of it is not. I consider her an orger friend and we share a lot of opinions. In the thread in question she is as likely to be right as not. I do not wish to get involved in conspiracy, religious or political threads but In this case, her statements have the ring of truth.
The information is correct, I assume. But I don't know and I have no way of quickly checking it.
At to the 1974 reference, I remember the gifting of the technology to India for the purpose of developing its atomic energy program to provide electricity. At some point we have to suspend second guessing the use of gifts and interject some trust in our international relationships. In 1974 life was about 10cc, computers that took up the floor space of a small house and no one had ever heard of Iraq. It was impossible then to anticipate the world's situation as it is now.
I know that Canada has developed an industry around processing its uranium deposits for export. Their singular intended destiny is the nuclear generating facilities of the world.
But that was not the point of my comment. It was directly in response to the facts of a story which pultneytooner had posted. I was agreeing with rich that Canada was not a participating nation in the Iraq conflict. Canada took much heat from the countries supporting the war when the government kept us out. Yet, the decision was made to leave in place those personnel who were in exchange positions so as to not interfere with the forces who were engaged in the conflict.
In our multi-connected life, none of us are free from some degree of responsibility in any atrocity that happens on the planet. Conversely, because of that connectedness, no matter how tenuous, we all have the opportunity to make a positive contribution to the peace and prosperity of humanity.
And I agree with most what Rich has said on this thread... because the topic of this thread and what it is implying is truly sad. However... as for the last paragraph you've written I completely agree.. but, it starts with admitting that Canada.. the country you live in is intimately entwined in the nightware we see today instead of blaming everywhere else. I'm no being funny like. But, this is a common theme I hear from Canadians every time the subject comes up and it could not be more false.
Going by the depleted uranium used in Iraq and where this toxic mess is dug up from.. I would say Canada is pretty involved. And I would have thought if the Canadians only intent was helping other countries generate nuclear power they wouldn't have skeletons in their closet such as the Anglo-Canadian-American Atomic Bomb Project.... which was well, well, well before 1974.
j4bberw0ck
21-Aug-06, 17:25
Doesn't the board have a "delete message" function? :roll:
.. the country you live in is intimately entwined in the nightware we see today instead of blaming everywhere else.
You misread me if you think that I have suggested "blame on everywhere else". Of course I accept that we are as up to our eyeballs in this as anyone else. Just sometimes when the great wide paint brush is swept over us it is necessary to point out the places where we are not to be tarred by the full brush. I also believe that if we are in this mess then I share part of the responsibility of getting us out. Very, very small it is, but positive communication with the "other side" is a place to begin. And maybe we will discover that the "other side" isn't so "other" after all and is running with as great a sense of fear as we are.
You misread me if you think that I have suggested "blame on everywhere else". Of course I accept that we are as up to our eyeballs in this as anyone else. Just sometimes when the great wide paint brush is swept over us it is necessary to point out the places where we are not to be tarred by the full brush. I also believe that if we are in this mess then I share part of the responsibility of getting us out. Very, very small it is, but positive communication with the "other side" is a place to begin. And maybe we will discover that the "other side" isn't so "other" after all and is running with as great a sense of fear as we are.
and may somebodys lord help us.;)
Doesn't the board have a "delete message" function? :roll:
Yes, you can delete. Click on edit at the bottom right hand side of your post. On the bottom right hand side of what pops up will be four boxes. The third one along is "delete". Click that. Then check the box that asks if you want the post to be deleted? It will work even without a reason given. Then click yourself back to the thread.
I'll check later and delete this post as well once you have yours off the thread.
You misread me if you think that I have suggested "blame on everywhere else". Of course I accept that we are as up to our eyeballs in this as anyone else. Just sometimes when the great wide paint brush is swept over us it is necessary to point out the places where we are not to be tarred by the full brush. I also believe that if we are in this mess then I share part of the responsibility of getting us out. Very, very small it is, but positive communication with the "other side" is a place to begin. And maybe we will discover that the "other side" isn't so "other" after all and is running with as great a sense of fear as we are.
Perhaps it's because we're both Leo/Virgo's but I find myself strangely moved by your posts today!!!!!!
j4bberw0ck
21-Aug-06, 18:29
Nope, no boxes, Canuck. Is the ability to delete another "earned" privilege? Sure enough, the pop-up text associated with the "Edit" button says "Edit/ Delete" but there's no delete function shown. Honest!
Nope, no boxes, Canuck. Is the ability to delete another "earned" privilege? Sure enough, the pop-up text associated with the "Edit" button says "Edit/ Delete" but there's no delete function shown. Honest!
Of course that is what it is. You aren't old enough to do this yet. Deletion is kept for experienced orgers, well at least ones with trusted status now marked with the ".orger" designation. So, if you want to, in a few months you can return to this site and delete your post. Or, you could write to the administration and ask them to do it. But in another few hours no one will care and you got rid of the part which concerned you.
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