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Dadie
07-Dec-10, 22:52
Whats with all the dogs/puppies for sale at the moment?
There seems to be a lot of ads at the moment.

changilass
07-Dec-10, 22:59
Its coming up to Christmas, it alus happens [disgust]

KCI
07-Dec-10, 23:33
I'd like to see a ban on rehoming and pets for sale ads over Christmas time.

I'm sure that will make me unpopular, but it is getting out of hand. The amount of pets rehomed or sold at this time is terrible. It's such a bad time of year to introduce a new pet to a new family/home.

lindsaymcc
08-Dec-10, 00:24
The sellers want money for christmas, and are feeding the "all i want for christmas is a puppy" culture that has arisen with kids nowadays.

My kids never once asked for a puppy..... my husband wanted a dog, I said I would prefer a puppy as can be trained (as we have young children) easier.

We got Jake 3 weeks ago, ok so not the best timing, and a bit sooner than I had anticipated (we were thinking more february/march time) but Jakes litter came up and having seen some pictures, we thought why not.

Fingers crossed these puppies find forever homes and not "oh you are cute.... damn you got big....... I dont want a dog anymore" situations.

Tatbabe
08-Dec-10, 10:10
People often don't do any research on the breed they get - all they see is the cute puppy.

It takes lots of effort, time and regular training even once it's an adult dog and the breed they take on might not be suitable for their lifestyle.

Having a puppy for Christmas will often mean that the rescue centres which are already over capacity have to take on unwanted animals after reality kicks in and the poor pups end up in a rescue kennel.

As long as there are people wanting to get puppies as a 'Christmas present' there will be people selling them.

Commore
08-Dec-10, 11:04
http://www.petitiononline.com/annao/petition.html

On my website I run the link above, as a matter of course and for the record may I state that our remaining 4 puppies will not be rehomed at Christmas, in fact if suitable homes cannot be found they may not be rehomed at all.

Some of those on the org who sought to be a new owner of one our dogs, were to say the least, most disappointing and suffice to say only one puppy was rehomed.

As far as I am concerned, our puppies deserve so much more than an oh well, I am doing the owners a favour by taking a puppy off their hands,
this attitude is not one which we ourselves appreciate,
neither was the attitude taken against me personally whereby I was considered by many to a prime numpty,

Regardless, the 4 remaining puppies will have a long and happy life with or without the help from the caring sharing org.

Tatbabe
08-Dec-10, 11:17
[quote=Commore;796215]http://www.petitiononline.com/annao/petition.html

On my website I run the link above, as a matter of course and for the record may I state that our remaining 4 puppies will not be rehomed at Christmas, in fact if suitable homes cannot be found they may not be rehomed at all.
[quote]

That's great!
Good to see that there are responsible and sensible breeders out there.

chaz
08-Dec-10, 11:24
Commore was responsible when looking for homes, but no one seemed to see that at the time:confused

Crackeday
08-Dec-10, 12:28
I am looking for a dog at the moment but that doesnt mean that its as a xmas present. If its blatantly for a Xmas present then I am against it,but some times people cant help when their dogs have litters.
playing devils advocate what happens if the dogs cant find homes over xmas and are abandoned? There may be loving potential pet owners that would have taken them.Which is the lesser of 2 evils?
Its a tough call but i suppose responsible breeders need to find responsible owners, its at the discretion of the breeder,and the potential owner needs to show that its for life and not just for xmas.
personally I am against a ban.

Dadie
08-Dec-10, 12:31
Commore the petition is for only staffie/staffie Xs being advertised for sale.
I would like a blanket ban on puppies being sold over the Christmas period.
From about 3 weeks before christmas to the 3rd Jan.....

Anfield
08-Dec-10, 13:20
"..but some times people cant help when their dogs have litters.."

A responsible dog/cat owner will have their dogs/cat neutered or spayed to prevent unwanted pregnancies.

Commore
08-Dec-10, 14:01
Commore the petition is for only staffie/staffie Xs being advertised for sale.
I would like a blanket ban on puppies being sold over the Christmas period.
From about 3 weeks before christmas to the 3rd Jan.....
I would agree with that,

Commore
08-Dec-10, 14:04
A responsible dog/cat owner will have their dogs/cat neutered or spayed to prevent unwanted pregnancies.

Yes Anfield, seems I was drastically outnumbered on my views regarding spaying etc, however, and through having little real choice in that matter 4 of ours will visiting the vets in the forseeable future,

Anfield
08-Dec-10, 15:42
Yes Anfield, seems I was drastically outnumbered on my views regarding spaying etc, however, and through having little real choice in that matter 4 of ours will visiting the vets in the forseeable future,

That is going to cost you a lot of money Commore. We recently had one of our dogs (small collie) spayed at the Thurso vets "McGreedors" and it cost 150! How can they justify this cost?

I would like to see some of the rich animal charities subsidise the cost of neutering/spaying in order to reduce the number of unwanted animals in the UK. In England the Dogs Trust (http://www.dogstrust.org.uk/az/s/subsidisedneutering/default.aspx) run a scheme wherebye in some areas it costs just 30 to neuter a dog, and even less if you reside in Northern Island.

But then again the vets have a vested financial interest in ensuring that there a lot of animals to treat

changilass
08-Dec-10, 15:54
I think all dog owners should be registered as either breeders or regular owners. and that all dogs should be 'done', unless you are a registered breeder.

Registered breeders shouldn't be having accidents. The breeder we got Murph from knew 2yrs in advance when she was planning to have more puppies available and we were lucky to get on her waiting list at the start.

Murph had his visit to the vets as soon as he was old enough.

If you can't afford the costs of having vet treatments you shouldn't be owning a dog in the first place, its not fair on them and its not fair on the owner struggling to find the money.

Dadie
08-Dec-10, 16:45
I know that most if not all rehoming centres used to, but not sure if they still do, have a rehoming ban over the festive period!
They would still take in strays and abandoned animals... but the rehoming was left until the new year.
When it is easier to settle a pet in as the daily routine is back to routine:lol:

As for the cost of neutering...thats to be taken into consideration when getting an animal...150 is not bad!
Poppy was 210 in 2003.
If you are complaining about the cost...see what some of the vets down south charge!
I think our vets are reasonable in their costs.

Commore
08-Dec-10, 17:09
Well, I have been quoted nearly three thousand pounds for all that I would need done with my dogs,
not an option in the current climate, therefore, it will be bitches only at the moment,
mind you, I did not expect to be left with four puppies either and they pose their own problems,

every animal owner, regardless of animal type has need of a vet at some time or other in the lifetime of the animals, vets are a necessity of modern life, but their fees for this or that could be reduced to cope with the overbreeding etc, of a variety of animals.

I nearly fainted when charged nearly twenty pounds for a small amount of panacur for the worming of our puppies and yet for just a few pounds more and for the same wormer I can worm a whole herd of sheep,
and as far as I can see someone has the sums wrong when dealing with a pet as opposed to a domestic herd regardless of type of animal.

I am being quoted anywhere between 180 pounds and 220 pounds per bitch depending on the weight of the dog,

yet in Glasgow the pdsa will charge only 30 pounds per dog,

Cardonald cat and dog home charges a very small amount if you have your dog done there,
albeit, it is students doing the work.
Vets, in my opinion hold pet owners to ransom and even more so in the north,

Anfield
08-Dec-10, 17:42
Vets, in my opinion hold pet owners to ransom and even more so in the north,

Using the word Vets implies plural, and that we have a choice.
Up here it is McGreedors, or a long drive south

Commore
08-Dec-10, 17:52
Using the word Vets implies plural, and that we have a choice.
Up here it is McGreedors, or a long drive south
Precisely
my sentiments exactly

munron
08-Dec-10, 19:03
I hummed and I haaad and then thought oh why not.

Why do people get an animal without doing any research as to how much it may potentially cost them in the future? A simple phone call before procuring your pet or allowing you pet to breed would have solved a simple problem about how much to spay / neuter. This could then have entered into your accounts to whether you could have afforded said pet. A simple geographical search and some logic applied would have confirmed that PDSA would not have been available to spay / neuter but another simple phone call would have assured you that should your finances deserve it there is PDSA available up here for all other unforeseen ailments.

The PDSA spay /neuter scheme runs at a loss, not really financially viable for a business with good people to pay. A discount scheme is offered to local charities to alleviate some of the burden they endure for other peoples inconsiderate breeding.

Any other vets are most welcome to come up and set up practice, it is not an exclusive market.

If you wish your pet "done" in a tin shed with very little overheads and no sterile environment, clean kennel, food, nurses, staff and qualified surgeons then I am sure there are a few potential butchers that can oblige.

I just googled the private price of a hysterectomy on a woman and it is about 5k, I didnt google male castration but I can see there should be a market for it.

Now I may be a bit flippant but sometimes people just annoy me, the fact that they have to pay for something outrages them, without a thought for even the most simple aspect of the people behind that business, the care, the equipment, the skill, the overheads and that goes for every business out there trying to make a few pence to keep their heads above water.

But if you are ever in the unfortunate position to phone the vet in the middle of the night to ask for advice on your beloved animal - make sure you ask the price so you can moan the greedy brute charged you a whooping nothing!!!!

Commore
08-Dec-10, 19:10
I hummed and I haaad and then thought oh why not.

Why do people get an animal without doing any research as to how much it may potentially cost them in the future? A simple phone call before procuring your pet or allowing you pet to breed would have solved a simple problem about how much to spay / neuter. This could then have entered into your accounts to whether you could have afforded said pet. A simple geographical search and some logic applied would have confirmed that PDSA would not have been available to spay / neuter but another simple phone call would have assured you that should your finances deserve it there is PDSA available up here for all other unforeseen ailments.

The PDSA spay /neuter scheme runs at a loss, not really financially viable for a business with good people to pay. A discount scheme is offered to local charities to alleviate some of the burden they endure for other peoples inconsiderate breeding.

Any other vets are most welcome to come up and set up practice, it is not an exclusive market.

If you wish your pet "done" in a tin shed with very little overheads and no sterile environment, clean kennel, food, nurses, staff and qualified surgeons then I am sure there are a few potential butchers that can oblige.

I just googled the private price of a hysterectomy on a woman and it is about 5k, I didnt google male castration but I can see there should be a market for it.

Now I may be a bit flippant but sometimes people just annoy me, the fact that they have to pay for something outrages them, without a thought for even the most simple aspect of the people behind that business, the care, the equipment, the skill, the overheads and that goes for every business out there trying to make a few pence to keep their heads above water.

But if you are ever in the unfortunate position to phone the vet in the middle of the night to ask for advice on your beloved animal - make sure you ask the price so you can moan the greedy brute charged you a whooping nothing!!!!

I like your post, are you a vet per chance:D

Liz
08-Dec-10, 19:15
Very well said Munron.

I would love to have a lot more pets than I do but the reason I don't is because I know I can't afford to! I would rather have a smaller number and be able to care for them properly.
Too many people rush into getting a pet without finding out the cost involved;amount of exercise needed etc hence the large number of abandoned and 'unwanted' pets.

I have nothing but praise for our local Veterinary Practice who have always looked after my pets so well and I don't mind paying for this service at all.
As you rightly say Munron,they are always on the end of a phone to offer free advice.
You may find that a long drive South would actually cost a lot more.

For those on low incomes and certain benefits the PDSA will help as do Cats Protection.

munron
08-Dec-10, 19:16
Alas no I am not, couldnt get the "o" grades :)

Commore
08-Dec-10, 19:42
Very well said Munron.

I would love to have a lot more pets than I do but the reason I don't is because I know I can't afford to! I would rather have a smaller number and be able to care for them properly.
Too many people rush into getting a pet without finding out the cost involved;amount of exercise needed etc hence the large number of abandoned and 'unwanted' pets.

I have nothing but praise for our local Veterinary Practice who have always looked after my pets so well and I don't mind paying for this service at all.
As you rightly say Munron,they are always on the end of a phone to offer free advice.
You may find that a long drive South would actually cost a lot more.

For those on low incomes and certain benefits the PDSA will help as do Cats Protection and KWK9 Rescue.

Yes, for uno (one) pet only,
does it ever dawn on any of you goody 2 shoes people of the north, that there are people around / all around you, probably that are on benefits/ or have needs for such a service as the pdsa, or other animal welfare organizations,
does it never dawn on you that not everyone can afford to pay extortionate fees of the vets and others whose only goal in life is to outdo or ridicule their neighbour,
I like the org but occasionally, I wish I had never laid eyes on it, there are so many narrowminded biggots on here that it is sickening in some posts.
this post for instance has gone way off topic and has reduced itself yet again to those who choose not see the problems faced by many, but who are nevertheless
animal lovers/pet owners/ etc,
instead of bleating on about the haves and the havenots / or shouldnotbeallowed brigade, I suggest get of your high horse and campaign to bring about change to those who would benefit from having such as a pdsa in the north,
and its great that you can afford to pay for all your vet needs because you have the good sense to cut down on the amount of pets you care to keep,
long may your good fortune last,
bearing in mind that fortunes as circumstances change, and sometimes without warning and almost always outwith control,
who then, should qualify for help in paying the extortionate vet fees, you , who kept your pets to a minimum or your neighbour who keeps a lot of animals albeit on a low income,

Liz
08-Dec-10, 19:47
[/b]

Yes, for uno (one) pet only,

I didn't know that.:confused This doesn't apply to Cats Protection.

munron
08-Dec-10, 19:52
[/B]

Yes, for uno (one) pet only,

Here I go again when I really should be poop picking.

I would believe, and I am not an expert on PDSA, that the scheme was set up to help both willing owners and rescues. Wherein a suitable, loving, home who could cover the pets basic needs would relieve the rescues of one place, which in turn stops one more PTS.

Some people need pets, there are a lot of people who benefit from having some form of company and if they are fit enough or the pet fits them, then it is happiness allround.

There would have to be a limit as I am sure there isnt a rescue in the country that has unlimited resources.

I am willing to stand corrected on this as I am not to sure to be honest, but my correction will have to wait till all the poop is done :)

Liz
08-Dec-10, 20:00
Hee hee I fear there will be a lot of poop to pick once the snow thaws and reveals all!!!:lol:

Dadie
08-Dec-10, 20:24
Hmmn its gone off topic!
Pets as Christmas pressies?
:eek:
Not the balls n bits off discussion!:lol:

Liz
08-Dec-10, 20:30
Oops sorry Dadie!:lol:

Whilst I agree that, on the whole, it isn't a good idea to rehome a pet at Christmas I really think it can depend on the circumstances.
Not everyone has young children, lots of visitors, parties etc and so it can be a good time to get a pet as they are off work for a few days and so can spend time settling it in.
I would much rather an animal was in a loving home than stuck in a rehoming centre just because it's Christmas!
I think it's the idea, quite rightly, of giving a pet as a 'present' but this applies all year round.

caz
08-Dec-10, 20:41
Well said Munron on your first post

munron
08-Dec-10, 20:48
At the end of the day you can only respond to the posts before you, pets for crimble presents well I can see the for and the against, if it is for life then I dont really mind when it is as long as they are treated right throughout their life. BUT I agree it is not right to advertise one as a potential christmas present.

Commore I see you have edited your post to add more, I dont really know how to respond to be honest, sometimes people just take on too much for all good intentions and find themselves in deeper than they ever imagined. I wish you well but somehow I feel that there might be a chip needing a wee shove, we are not all goody whotsits, just people who care and have opinions, even if they are not in allegience with others.

Sarah
08-Dec-10, 20:57
I too think its so people can buy pets for Christmas, I have seen a few ads, especially on Gumtree saying Christmas Puppies! Saying what great presents they will make. This is just not right. I think bringing in dog registration would help, but then, only responsible owners would pay it! :(

Oh the balls n bits discussion, I think if you have pets, especially a large number through your own choice (or even worse through breeding), you should be responsible for neutering/spaying. Why should charities be paying for you not being able to control the number of pets you get?

I'm grateful I've never had to pay for neutering or spaying, they were always done before adoption :)

KWK9 Rescue
08-Dec-10, 21:22
I know that KWK9 Rescue will help with neutering costs for those on low incomes.:D

Sorry Liz, we can only help out with these costs if it is a dog that has been rehomed through us (and if we have enough funds to do so) unfortunately we are not in a position to help the general public with neutering costs....

chaz
08-Dec-10, 22:34
Oops sorry Dadie!:lol:

Whilst I agree that, on the whole, it isn't a good idea to rehome a pet at Christmas I really think it can depend on the circumstances.
Not everyone has young children, lots of visitors, parties etc and so it can be a good time to get a pet as they are off work for a few days and so can spend time settling it in.
I would much rather an animal was in a loving home than stuck in a rehoming centre just because it's Christmas!
I think it's the idea, quite rightly, of giving a pet as a 'present' but this applies all year round.
It definatly depends on the circumstances, we dont have a lot of parties,visitors ect and i know of many familys like us,and also everyone is home together to let the puppy settle in and give lots of attention, rather than as some do put in a cage for hours. I have on several occasions given a pet to one of my children as a gift and all are well cared for.
And just for the record my two bitches are not neuterd, so does that make me a bad owner?
All our pets animals have the best of care and vets visits as required.

Liz
08-Dec-10, 23:55
Sorry Liz, we can only help out with these costs if it is a dog that has been rehomed through us (and if we have enough funds to do so) unfortunately we are not in a position to help the general public with neutering costs....

Oh I am sooooooo sorry for giving misinformation. I misunderstood. :(

Liz
09-Dec-10, 00:05
Yes, for uno (one) pet only,
does it ever dawn on any of you goody 2 shoes people of the north, that there are people around / all around you, probably that are on benefits/ or have needs for such a service as the pdsa, or other animal welfare organizations,
does it never dawn on you that not everyone can afford to pay extortionate fees of the vets and others whose only goal in life is to outdo or ridicule their neighbour,
I like the org but occasionally, I wish I had never laid eyes on it, there are so many narrowminded biggots on here that it is sickening in some posts.
this post for instance has gone way off topic and has reduced itself yet again to those who choose not see the problems faced by many, but who are nevertheless
animal lovers/pet owners/ etc,
instead of bleating on about the haves and the havenots / or shouldnotbeallowed brigade, I suggest get of your high horse and campaign to bring about change to those who would benefit from having such as a pdsa in the north,
and its great that you can afford to pay for all your vet needs because you have the good sense to cut down on the amount of pets you care to keep,
long may your good fortune last,
bearing in mind that fortunes as circumstances change, and sometimes without warning and almost always outwith control,
who then, should qualify for help in paying the extortionate vet fees, you , who kept your pets to a minimum or your neighbour who keeps a lot of animals albeit on a low income,

Good grief where did that come from?!

FYI I am neither a 'goody 2 shoes','a narrow minded biggot' or own a 'high horse'!!!

I fully understand that people's circumstances can change and need help with veterinary bills etc in order to be able to keep their beloved pets.

I merely pointed out the reason why I chose to have less pets but I in no way look down on others who share their lives with lots of animals. It is entirely up to individuals how many pets they can keep.

As for 'good fortune' I cannot work due to illness and am in receipt of benefits much of which goes on my animals (including stray cats and wild birds). Life would not be worth living without my dog and cats and I would not want to deny anyone this just because they are on a low income.

I suggest you take a deep breathe and think twice before you post such a tirade!

Commore
09-Dec-10, 12:16
]Good grief where did that come from?[/B]!

FYI I am neither a 'goody 2 shoes','a narrow minded biggot' or own a 'high horse'!!!

I fully understand that people's circumstances can change and need help with veterinary bills etc in order to be able to keep their beloved pets.

I merely pointed out the reason why I chose to have less pets but I in no way look down on others who share their lives with lots of animals. It is entirely up to individuals how many pets they can keep.

As for 'good fortune' I cannot work due to illness and am in receipt of benefits much of which goes on my animals (including stray cats and wild birds). Life would not be worth living without my dog and cats and I would not want to deny anyone this just because they are on a low income.

I suggest you take a deep breathe and think twice before you post such a tirade!

it came from general observation and way deep down and there is more to come!

Liz
09-Dec-10, 13:39
it came from general observation and way deep down and there is more to come!

Ah well let it out then!:lol:

Anfield
09-Dec-10, 16:02
I hummed and I haaad and then thought oh why not.

Why do people get an animal without doing any research as to how much it may potentially cost them in the future? A simple phone call before procuring your pet or allowing you pet to breed would have solved a simple problem about how much to spay / neuter. This could then have entered into your accounts to whether you could have afforded said pet. A simple geographical search and some logic applied would have confirmed that PDSA would not have been available to spay / neuter but another simple phone call would have assured you that should your finances deserve it there is PDSA available up here for all other unforeseen ailments.

The PDSA spay /neuter scheme runs at a loss, not really financially viable for a business with good people to pay. A discount scheme is offered to local charities to alleviate some of the burden they endure for other peoples inconsiderate breeding.

Any other vets are most welcome to come up and set up practice, it is not an exclusive market.

If you wish your pet "done" in a tin shed with very little overheads and no sterile environment, clean kennel, food, nurses, staff and qualified surgeons then I am sure there are a few potential butchers that can oblige.

I just googled the private price of a hysterectomy on a woman and it is about 5k, I didnt google male castration but I can see there should be a market for it.

Now I may be a bit flippant but sometimes people just annoy me, the fact that they have to pay for something outrages them, without a thought for even the most simple aspect of the people behind that business, the care, the equipment, the skill, the overheads and that goes for every business out there trying to make a few pence to keep their heads above water.

But if you are ever in the unfortunate position to phone the vet in the middle of the night to ask for advice on your beloved animal - make sure you ask the price so you can moan the greedy brute charged you a whooping nothing!!!!
You assume a lot of things in your post, some of them quite offensive to the many millions of people who care for pets.
Peoples circumstances can change overnight (just ask one of the 500,000 workers about to lose their jobs due to budget cuts) so someone who sets out with the best intentions in the world in caring for an animal can come unstuck, and unfortunately in these times of austerity it is often their animals that suffer.

Can you provide evidence that the PDSA neutering/spaying programme runs at a loss, together with details of the discount scheme which it offers local charities as the post here from KWK9 shows that there would be a demand for that service up here.

I have no objection to paying, the not inconsiderable, vet fees which we have pay each month for our chronically ill dog, as we are fortunate and can afford it but spare a thought for those who are not in this position. You never know, you might just find yourself in this position one day.

Commore
09-Dec-10, 16:32
You assume a lot of things in your post, some of them quite offensive to the many millions of people who care for pets.
Peoples circumstances can change overnight (just ask one of the 500,000 workers about to lose their jobs due to budget cuts) so someone who sets out with the best intentions in the world in caring for an animal can come unstuck, and unfortunately in these times of austerity it is often their animals that suffer.

Can you provide evidence that the PDSA neutering/spaying programme runs at a loss, together with details of the discount scheme which it offers local charities as the post here from KWK9 shows that there would be a demand for that service up here.

I have no objection to paying, the not inconsiderable, vet fees which we have pay each month for our chronically ill dog, as we are fortunate and can afford it but spare a thought for those who are not in this position. You never know, you might just find yourself in this position one day.

I would agree with that,
and that was all I was trying to say,in my tirade.
Circumstances change, people change but it js always the animals who suffer and I know of no one who does not do their utmost for their animals.

teenybash
09-Dec-10, 16:47
Using the word Vets implies plural, and that we have a choice.
Up here it is McGreedors, or a long drive south

Exactly.................

Dadie
09-Dec-10, 17:11
If you insist on bleating on about the vet prices up here, pick up the yellow pages and look up vets.
There are lots to chose from on the way down to Inverness and further afield and if you dont fancy a long drive you could always go over to Orkney on the boat!
But in an emergency I know where I would go for fast efficient service.
But if you want to shop around for cheaper routine surgery lash at it!
What the eck you could always combine it with getting your christmas shopping!

All boxed up
09-Dec-10, 17:35
I like your post, are you a vet per chance:grin:


Hubby is one of mentioned vets is he not.....

munron
09-Dec-10, 17:39
Oh thank goodness for sense, cheers Dadie.

Did it ever occur to you that if you suddenly found yourself in dire straits that if you possibly spoke to people they may come to a financial arrangement where you could pay what you could, when you could?

It is the whiff of poor me that comes across and yes I have been in the position of having very little money, I got tesco insurance for my dog which was cheap and might not have covered a lot of bills but enough to buy me some time to sort out whatever I would need to do - my pet, my responsability.

As for proving the PDSA charging 30 is a loss, well why dont you phone them and while you are on the phone ask them when they are coming north as there is a few people wanting to welcome them, for a minimum donation.

munron
09-Dec-10, 17:41
I doubt it.....Hubby is one of said Vets :roll:

Ha ha meiow :) Believe it or not I wasnt always one, I am who I am and not to whom I choose to marry.

chaz
09-Dec-10, 17:47
Hubby is one of mentioned vets is he not.....

thank you for editing i was trying to work out whos hubby lol xx

Commore
09-Dec-10, 17:54
the whole thread is a mystery having been hijacked at an early stage:)

chaz
09-Dec-10, 18:02
the whole thread is a mystery having been hijacked at an early stage:)

very true:)
Back to the christmas pressie issue, i know i would rather buy my children a pet than an expensive toy that may be played with for a week, but then i know my children are dedicated to all the animals.
I am also well aware this is not the case with a lot of people and see the concern, but that is between breeder and buyer.

Dadie
09-Dec-10, 20:32
I didnt hijack my own thread ..but as it has degenerated into neutering debate I hought what the eck might as well join in, as its never going to go back to topic!

missemma2
09-Dec-10, 20:34
Well, I have been quoted nearly three thousand pounds for all that I would need done with my dogs,
not an option in the current climate, therefore, it will be bitches only at the moment,
mind you, I did not expect to be left with four puppies either and they pose their own problems,

every animal owner, regardless of animal type has need of a vet at some time or other in the lifetime of the animals, vets are a necessity of modern life, but their fees for this or that could be reduced to cope with the overbreeding etc, of a variety of animals.

I nearly fainted when charged nearly twenty pounds for a small amount of panacur for the worming of our puppies and yet for just a few pounds more and for the same wormer I can worm a whole herd of sheep,
and as far as I can see someone has the sums wrong when dealing with a pet as opposed to a domestic herd regardless of type of animal.

I am being quoted anywhere between 180 pounds and 220 pounds per bitch depending on the weight of the dog,

yet in Glasgow the pdsa will charge only 30 pounds per dog,

Cardonald cat and dog home charges a very small amount if you have your dog done there,
albeit, it is students doing the work.
Vets, in my opinion hold pet owners to ransom and even more so in the north,

Being a pet owner, as well as a vet nurse myself (and no I don't work at the practice up here!) I do understand that the fees that the vets charge do seem expensive. Having been on the other side of things as a nurse I know how expensive everything is for vet practices to buy. Drugs at cost price are extortionate (my last practice had a monthly drugs bill in excess of 17000 per month), when you factor in all of the equipment (thousands of pounds) required to properly equip a practice and the staff wages - remember it is not only the vet that is required to run a practice smoothly and care for your pet. There are the nurses, receptionists, cleaners to name but a few. In addition to that, practices have a number of external organisations that they have to pay for services (waste disposal is very expensive, insurance, marketing, phone calls, external lab services, electricity and heating)

I used to think that what vets charged was unreasonable, and yes, at times it can be but they are businesses at the end of the day and because of their high setup and running costs they have no option but to charge reasonably.

With regard to being charged much less for large animal products - Large animal products are cheaper to buy at cost price.

Having come from Inverness, the practice here seems incredably cheap for its services - 35 for a recent visit with my cat which would have cost me 60 easily elsewhere.

Having been a student at a PDSA hospital in Edinburgh, the measly 30 they charge they make for spaying a bitch does not nearly cover the true cost -the service is run at a massive loss and it is the donations from the generous public that covers the remainder of the cost.

I really do get your point and am in no way having a go - I am much as anyone wince when I get a vet Bill!!:D

dollycat
09-Dec-10, 20:44
One of my four sons asked for a siberian husky for Christmas, he wasnt impressed when he got a bookmark with a husky on it:lol: The fish, hamsters and rabbits were all left to mother after the novelty wore off and now they are all nearly grown up I,ve a houseful of cats and a dog, all abandoned animals. Im never out of the vet surgery with one stray or another, but I think the vets and their staff here in Wick are second to none and worth every penny. You might need to watch 'Granny' at Christmastime though as my sons used to arrive home with a tiny box around this time of year saying, 'its only little':roll:

Dadie
09-Dec-10, 23:21
At 30 for a spaying they are not even covering the drugs used at cost before VAT!
No wonder people up here are complaining if thats the price being banded about for elsewhere.
The prices dont seem to have gone up much in the time since I had Poppy dog done...and yes I could of had her done at the SSPCA expense but as I could pay I did. It wasnt being rightious or on my high horse or for any other reason than the SSPCA could put the money to better use than on us as we were both fulltime workers with no kids at the time!

Sarah
10-Dec-10, 15:10
At 30 for a spaying they are not even covering the drugs used at cost before VAT!
No wonder people up here are complaining if thats the price being banded about for elsewhere.
The prices dont seem to have gone up much in the time since I had Poppy dog done...and yes I could of had her done at the SSPCA expense but as I could pay I did. It wasnt being rightious or on my high horse or for any other reason than the SSPCA could put the money to better use than on us as we were both fulltime workers with no kids at the time!

Is it 30 for a dog? If so, that's an amazing price!

I was pleased with 60 rabbit spay, which I have 2 of needing done, over here in Sutherland, thought 60 for a rabbit was very reasonable, as I know its closer to 100 for a spay on a rabbit.

missemma2
12-Dec-10, 13:24
Is it 30 for a dog? If so, that's an amazing price!

I was pleased with 60 rabbit spay, which I have 2 of needing done, over here in Sutherland, thought 60 for a rabbit was very reasonable, as I know its closer to 100 for a spay on a rabbit.

It is only 30 but it is only available to individuals on benefit, registered as PDSA clients at a PDSA hospital. When I was there they used to insist on making people take 2 forms of proof that they were on benefit each time and asked to see them in front of everybody - I used to think it must have been embarrasing for people.

Having said that, it was amazing how many of these 'poor' individuals were driving around in executive cars!:lol:

brandy
12-Dec-10, 14:44
Lady and the tramp have so much to answer for!

GruesomeTwosome
14-Dec-10, 14:23
Some really good comments everyone but i'll bring it right back to topic.

I got my wee girl at christmas (6 years ago). I had wanted a rottie since I was little so I had been planning it for a while. I did my research on that breed but had had dogs before. Getting her at that time of year was great as I had my christmas holidays so I was home for about 3 weeks solid with her, I was so lucky to spend so long with her when she was so little and thought I planned it out quite well.

Unfortunately not everyone plans it out like this and pets are bought for chrismas presents and then the gorgeous wee pup grows up and acts like (most) pups do ie chewing, mischief and general destruction and they end up out the door. It makes me so sad.

Some breeders dont help either by seeing these animals as money makers and taking advantage of this time of year.

I have already rehomed one unwanted dog so will people please think seriously before taking on a pet.

Thats my tuppensworth, merry chrismas to everyone and your pets! x

_Ju_
14-Dec-10, 14:55
That is going to cost you a lot of money Commore. We recently had one of our dogs (small collie) spayed at the Thurso vets "McGreedors" and it cost 150! How can they justify this cost?



One thing that people forget is that nowadays, when an accident or medical emergency happens, pet owners expect all the equipment and the services to be available on a comparable basis to the NHS. That costs money that you would not imagine. Then ontop of that professional insurance, etc. It is the everyday stuff like vacinations and reproductive control surgeries that pay for the a surgery able to provide the emergency service care when needed. An Xray machine that takes a couple of x-rays a day will never pay for itself.

Anfield
14-Dec-10, 17:30
One thing that people forget is that nowadays, when an accident or medical emergency happens, pet owners expect all the equipment and the services to be available on a comparable basis to the NHS. That costs money that you would not imagine. Then ontop of that professional insurance, etc. It is the everyday stuff like vacinations and reproductive control surgeries that pay for the a surgery able to provide the emergency service care when needed. An Xray machine that takes a couple of x-rays a day will never pay for itself.

Are you saying that the vets provide an emergency for free?

I disagree with your comment that people expect similar treatment to the NHS for their animals, the NHS, in most cases, is free, unlike veterinary practices
I have never disputed the fact that vets have overheads, but I would asssume that, like most businesses, they produce an annual budget into which all overheads such as clerical wages, heating, lighting etc. are incorporated.
Capital equipment, X-ray machines etc, are deemed to have a lifespan of "x" No. of years, and and any losses incurred in running can be offset against tax, as can the depreciation of the equipment over the working lifespan.

I like your term "productive control surgeries", sounds better than neutering or spaying

_Ju_
14-Dec-10, 18:45
Are you saying that the vets provide an emergency for free?

I disagree with your comment that people expect similar treatment to the NHS for their animals, the NHS, in most cases, is free, unlike veterinary practices
I have never disputed the fact that vets have overheads, but I would asssume that, like most businesses, they produce an annual budget into which all overheads such as clerical wages, heating, lighting etc. are incorporated.
Capital equipment, X-ray machines etc, are deemed to have a lifespan of "x" No. of years, and and any losses incurred in running can be offset against tax, as can the depreciation of the equipment over the working lifespan.

I like your term "productive control surgeries", sounds better than neutering or spaying

the word was reproductive, not productive. so you like it? Be free to use it.
NHS is free? Really? Not according to the governments budget. It is a very expensive service.
Do you have any idea how many X-rays a day you would need to take for the xray machine to be profitable? Do you have any idea how many different sizes of different orthapeadic materials you need to have on hand for that couple of times a year surgery you might have to carry out? and the cost of that material? Do you haver any idea of how many sonograms actually pay for the ultrasound? And how many the average practice will carry out in a year? You have no idea of these costs.
PS: Many vets do alot more than you think for free.

Dadie
14-Dec-10, 19:50
The NHS is not free.
Its only free at point of service.
There is a big difference.
The NHS is actually like a big black hole sooking up the money we pay as TAXES!
At the vets you can actually see how much things cost to get done...imagine if you got a bill for the treatment at the docs or the hospital, then you would get a shock......afterall this is the UK and not the USA where the bills are handed out....

Anfield
15-Dec-10, 13:25
the word was reproductive, not productive. so you like it? Be free to use it.
NHS is free? Really? Not according to the governments budget. It is a very expensive service.
Do you have any idea how many X-rays a day you would need to take for the xray machine to be profitable? Do you have any idea how many different sizes of different orthapeadic materials you need to have on hand for that couple of times a year surgery you might have to carry out? and the cost of that material? Do you haver any idea of how many sonograms actually pay for the ultrasound? And how many the average practice will carry out in a year? You have no idea of these costs.
PS: Many vets do alot more than you think for free.

I apologise for typo.
I stand by my comment that the NHS (at least for the time being) is free to the majority of people who seek its services. If you do not like the service that is provided you have a choice, go private.
In Caithness, people who seek veterinary service for their animals do not have a choice, and are forced to use the services of McGregors

I don't know the answers to the questions that you are raise councerning surgical operations, but as I pointed out in my last post these machines are costed into the costs of running a surgery.
Given how long that McGregors have been running a practicein Caithness, I am sure that having the necesary equipment has not resulted in them sustaining heavy financial losses

You seem to have an understanding of veterinary procedures which maybe comes from a veterinary background. Could you provide us with examples of "..Many vets do alot more than you think for free.."

Dadie
15-Dec-10, 13:59
The NHS is not free.
It costs millions every year.
You just dont see the cost as it is not charged to the recipient if it was you would be amazed/shocked at how much things actually cost, that prescription you may get for free could be worth hundreds of pounds if you had to buy the drugs.
Mc Gregors are not the only Vet Practice within a couple of hours travel away.
Its your choice whether to use the vet practice on your doorstep (so to speak) or use one a wee bit further away!
The vets dont chain you to the practice...

_Ju_
15-Dec-10, 16:06
I stand by my comment that the NHS (at least for the time being) is free to the majority of people who seek its services. If you do not like the service that is provided you have a choice, go private.
In Caithness, people who seek veterinary service for their animals do not have a choice, and are forced to use the services of McGregors

I don't know the answers to the questions that you are raise councerning surgical operations, but as I pointed out in my last post these machines are costed into the costs of running a surgery.
Given how long that McGregors have been running a practicein Caithness, I am sure that having the necesary equipment has not resulted in them sustaining heavy financial losses


Dear Anfield, you are in a habit of making factual statements from little or no facts. The NHS is NOT free. It has never been free.It costs someone, somewhere, alot of money. And even if you want to choose to go private, that does not free you from paying your contribuitions to it's maintenance (unlike a vet where you only pay if you go there). Just like the services the SPCA provide are not free. Someone somewhere along the line pays for them.
You have just said what I have been saying all along: these machines, equipment, materials cost alot of money which is costed into the running of the surgery. The cost of treatment when your dog ( who you have chosen to have of your own free will and have taken responsibility for) is rushed into the surgery with a shattered leg is partially paid for by the evryday procedures such as reproductive surgeries ( knock your socks off) and vaccines, which maintain the surgery. If you want an analogy (not a simily): Tesco does not make money by selling truffle oil. It makes money by selling bread and butter, but once in a while someone just has to have truffle oil, which is why they stock it.
Refering back: you seem to be under the impression that the local veterinary practice has a throat hold on the local animals health care needs. You are not forced to use them, you know? Or are you under the impression that someone has to open another local practice to give you a choice? If so, where is the business model that shows that this county can support two practices? And if it is such a great business idea (as apparently you are under the impression that vet practices are a license to print money), why have you not forged ahead with opening a practice. If you do not have the degree, you could manage the practice. Or go to vet school. How difficult can it be?
I think that everyone who knows a vet, even in passing, knows that they tend to put alot of dedication into their work and that yes, they do alot of unremunerated work. If that is not your experience then I can only draw one of two possible conclusions: you are either mixing with the wrong type of people/vet or you do not know vets. If the former, I can only suggest you change your circle of aquaintances. If the latter, then again you factualize entities unknown to you.

Anfield
15-Dec-10, 18:32
You have just said what I have been saying all along: these machines, equipment, materials cost alot of money which is costed into the running of the surgery. The cost of treatment when your dog ( who you have chosen to have of your own free will and have taken responsibility for) is rushed into the surgery with a shattered leg is partially paid for by the evryday procedures such as reproductive surgeries ( knock your socks off) and vaccines, which maintain the surgery. If you want an analogy (not a simily): Tesco does not make money by selling truffle oil. It makes money by selling bread and butter, but once in a while someone just has to have truffle oil, which is why they stock it.
Refering back: you seem to be under the impression that the local veterinary practice has a throat hold on the local animals health care needs. You are not forced to use them, you know? Or are you under the impression that someone has to open another local practice to give you a choice? If so, where is the business model that shows that this county can support two practices? And if it is such a great business idea (as apparently you are under the impression that vet practices are a license to print money), why have you not forged ahead with opening a practice. If you do not have the degree, you could manage the practice. Or go to vet school. How difficult can it be?
I think that everyone who knows a vet, even in passing, knows that they tend to put alot of dedication into their work and that yes, they do alot of unremunerated work. If that is not your experience then I can only draw one of two possible conclusions: you are either mixing with the wrong type of people/vet or you do not know vets. If the former, I can only suggest you change your circle of aquaintances. If the latter, then again you factualize entities unknown to you.

I will not get bogged down the definition of of the NHS being free. Obviously there is a cost in running the NHS, but as their web site states"..Although treatment on the NHS is free at the point of delivery.." NHS Services (http://www.nhs.uk/nhsengland/Healthcosts/pages/Abouthealthcosts.aspx)
Hopefully this will end this sub-thread on the semantics of the word "free".

I disagree with your analogy with Tesco, previous threads on this forum have complained about Tesco withdrawing certain foodstuffs because of lack of sales.
Where I can compare Tescos to a vet is in "Loss leaders" where Tesco will sell an item at below cost price, just to get a customer in the store. Once they are in the shop they will buy more products, thus Tesco will recover their perceived loss. If a vet was to offer a "loss leader" Neutering/Spaying service then they could recuperate their loss on other veterinary services.
However this would not work in Caithness because of the lack of competition,
I agree with you that this county can not support two veterinary practices, hence McGregors have a monoply, and can charge what they like.
I have never disputed the care and professional standards which the staff of McGregors offer to both clients, and more importantly the animals in their care.
Could you explain what your phrase "factualize entities unknown to you" means? as this has completely bamboozled me!

Turning now to the original thread and the abundance of animals wanting homes
Is it not feasible for the SSPCA and local vets to introduce such a scheme whereby people who are financially disadvantaged are able to have their animals neutered/spayed at a reduced rate. As I illustrated in #14 such a scheme does exist in other areas so why not in Caithness
If a subsidised neutering/spaying scheme was introduced, then I am sure that we would see a dramatic reduction in the number of surplus animals that are looking for homes.

Dadie
15-Dec-10, 21:52
Like all subsidised services, I would imagine, the costs would have to be covered somehow.
That could mean bumping up the costs elsewhere.
Consultation fees could go up...the drug fees wont go up because people will get their prescription from elsewhere.
Emergency surgery could cost more?
Just when people are at the most vunerable....
If a pet charity helped out they would have to make extra funds to cover the extra costs that so many charities in this economic climate cannot contemplate.
Oh and before anyone thinks im affilliated with the vets in any other way than being a pet owner, Im not!

Theerah0166
18-Dec-10, 22:32
Some of the bigger Charities do help with the cost of neutering dogs. Blue Cross (0300 123 99 33) will give 75 towards neutering and Dog Aid (0131 668 3633) will give 75% of actual cost, but you have to be on benefits and to prove it, and as you know Dogs Trust will also help. It does pay to keep phoning them as they do sometimes try to fob you off. Just keep asking. You will not however quallify for help from them all at the same time, help will only be forthcoming from one per dog.

missemma2
19-Dec-10, 15:49
Can I just say that all of this 'macrgregors have a monopoly and can charge what they like mentality' is a load of crap!!! Granted, they are the only practice in caithness, however, due to the fact that they get 100% of veterinary business locally, they can afford to and do charge very competatively!! 20 for a consultation is 5 less than my old practice used to charge. 150 for a bitch spay is no more than you would be charged elsewhere. They do not charge injection or dispensing fees (usually 5 or so per drug) that practically every other practice I have worked in does! So I feel that the criticism they are getting on here is a little unfair.

If you do your research on what a comparable procedure on a human would cost - what vets charge is cheap considering that the minute a peice of equipment is labelled for veterinary use its price doubles.

There is absolutely nothing stopping another vet opening a practice. It is just that nobody has chosen to.

At the end of the day, in my experience, pet owners do have increasingly high expectations of veterinary practices - especially now that so many owners have insurance. They expect practices to treat their pets like they would be treated if they were ill. And altho as has been said on here macregors have been long established - equipment does not last forever! It needs constand updating, suffers a great deal of wear and tear and is evolving.

Lastly, if you are not happy paying for vet care for your pets, its simple - dont have them!!

KEEP_ON_TRUCKIN
20-Dec-10, 22:58
I have to agree with Emma - prices up here are for sure a lot cheaper than those I have experienced in Dingwall and Inverurie for like for like proceedures.

But Emma as previous posters have pointed out they do not have 100% of all veterinary business, I know a number of Horse owners for example who choose to use Kessock Equine Vets for example.

missemma2
22-Dec-10, 17:57
Yes, But there are no other practices based in caithness - the percentage of owners using a service such as kessock equine is negligable in the overall scheme of things. How many owners travel to Orkney for treatment? or down to Rogart / Inverness? not many I would imagine, unless you count referrals to specialists on Edinburgh / Glasgow.

I think that it can work both ways - either a practice can go mad overcharging as people have no other option or they can charge less as they are doing well and getting the main proportion of business in an area. In the case here I think it works to the benefit of the community.

Emma

Hogfather
25-Dec-10, 17:39
I just wish I could get private health care for ME as cheaply as I get it for my dogs!:) Have found MacGregors to be on the cheaper side of average. Very glad I don't live in the south of Englandshire, where it is not uncommon to be looking at upwards of 250 for a <girl dog> spay, for eg.