View Full Version : petrol prices
again i see the petrol in wick has made a jump from 86p to 89p its ridiculous.
if it keeps rising this much i think car will have to be sold and 2 feet will have to be used just cant afford the price of petrol aswell as all the other things for the car, tax, mot insurance if they want less cars on the roads goto the manufacturer and tell them to stop building them rather than make us fork out
The Angel Of Death
26-Aug-04, 12:05
whats even more annoying is the further south you go the cheeper it gets i think that there should be one price for petrol all across the up (the cheapest at the mo will do)
Its mental that we get charged the price we do for petrol and makes me mad when they complain about a 1p rise further south who are getting it really cheap compared to what were paying
Petrol had been dearer in thurso than wick for a while now. How can Richards and Dunnets sell petrol in both towns a different prices. Doesn't seem particularly fair.
The difference in price between here and inverness is crazy. Even when you get to Brora its cheaper. Seems like it only increases on crossing the caithness county line.
Mr P Cannop
26-Aug-04, 13:01
all places in thurso are 89.1 p
Doesn't it come ashore at Scrabster or is the depot there just for show?
Doesn't it come ashore at Scrabster or is the depot there just for show?
I thought that aswell!!
Doesn't it come ashore at Scrabster or is the depot there just for show?
The oil that comes ashore at Peterhead then by pipeline to Grangemouth is far too good for road fuel and goes into the plastics industries and many other uses. But I digress the Scrabster depot gets topped up regularly by Tanker from Grangemouth or other refineries.
Golach
All is explained then, the extra price of fuel here is caused by the horrifically long and time consuming journey from Scrabster to Thurso.
The additional expense must be horrific!
It also probably explains why the cost of fuel in other parts of the Highlands is much less.
Getting to Ullapool is far easier than getting from Scrabster to either Thurso or Wick!
tides of pentland firth
03-Sep-04, 21:45
I thought the point of the war in Iraq was for cheaper petrol. It's happened in America, but not here.
Just to point out-the Scrabster depot is run by BP fuel-as far as i know, there are NO BP petrol stations north of Inverness-certainly none in Thurso or Wick (i think).
This is semi-informed conjecture, but to my knowledge BP pulled the rug from every franchise it had in the far-north. Therefore, EVERY gallon of fuel that goes into engines in Caithness (Shell/Esso/Umm, that's pretty much it) is trucked-up from Inverness or wherever. This alone is enough to give a jolt to prices-sending a truck/driver up here with a load of fuel two/three times a week costs money. It's not an ideal situation, but then again no one is forcing us to live in this remote penninsula.
Then why is the petrol on the West Coast, which is equally as difficult to get to as Caithness, as cheap as in Inverness.
And why is Petrol in Cornwall, whuch is just as remote as Caithness and has simmilar delivery distances, cheaper even than Inverness.
If Petrol coming from Inverness to Caithness costs a fortune to deliver then why is it cheaper for BP to deliver from Caithness to Inverness? BP is the same price in Inverness as other brands.
The fact that BP brings fuel ashore at Scrabster yet gave up it's local franchise smells of a back-door deal between the Oil Companies.
Unless the distance between Inverness and Caithness being the same both ways is semi-informed conjecture I cannot see any other reason than a 'Take it or leave it!' attitude being adopted by the suppliers.
Just to point out-the Scrabster depot is run by BP fuel-as far as i know, there are NO BP petrol stations north of Inverness-certainly none in Thurso or Wick (i think).
This is semi-informed conjecture, but to my knowledge BP pulled the rug from every franchise it had in the far-north. Therefore, EVERY gallon of fuel that goes into engines in Caithness (Shell/Esso/Umm, that's pretty much it) is trucked-up from Inverness or wherever. This alone is enough to give a jolt to prices-sending a truck/driver up here with a load of fuel two/three times a week costs money. It's not an ideal situation, but then again no one is forcing us to live in this remote penninsula.
Bp stations that had sales under X amount became National which is a subsidry of BP
I think its mostly heating fuel at scrabster
If BP bring heating oil ashore at Scrabster then it should cost far less in Caithness than it does on Inverness because of the distance and huge transport costs involved.
Im view of the distance and transport cost for evey gallon of Gas brought north from Inverness why is it that costs are still the same in both places?
Perhaps Calor have a franchise which enables their vehicles to run on fresh air and their drivers work for free out of kind consideration for the people of Caithness.
Of couse, all the semi-informed conjecture could be stopped immediately if those people who know the facts actually spoke up.
All I have heard both now and in the past is excuse after excuse without even one hard fact being muttered.
Of course, sometimes 'No Answer' is an answer in itself!
tides of pentland firth
04-Sep-04, 23:44
How can Richards and Dunnets sell petrol in both towns a different prices. Doesn't seem particularly fair.
Richards and Dunnets sell more petrol in Wick than Thurso. Therefore the prices in Wick are lower.
Perhaps they would sell more in Thurso if they charged less.
George Brims
05-Sep-04, 23:45
The Iraq war was "supposed"' to be about The War on Terror and WMDs and the evil of Saddam Hussein. Those of us of a cynical bent were convinced it also had quite a lot to do with oil. But let me assure you it has NOT made petrol/gasoline cheaper in the US. This summer it is as expensive here as it has ever been. Still a whole lot cheaper than in the UK all the same. It really needs to go up a whole lot more to persuade people to stop driving 10mpg seven-seater SUVs solo to work. Like that's going to happen...
The only reason fuel is so expensive in Britain is that our greedy Governments for decades have been taking three times as much in tax as everybody else involved takes for themselves and that includes the oils companies and the Arab suppliers.
That still does not explain the excessive prices in Caithness.
Ahhh, the whiff of petrol again - could this really be the fouth year of my nomme de plume?
I recall first logging into CCWS back in the summer of 2000 as the topic of fuel prices hit the headlines with the setting up of the Boycott The Pumps website - I was mad then and I guess I'm still mad today!
Nothing has changed - the government are still syphoning off 75p out of every 100p you spend on the stuff and they may or may not suspend the next increase - so you could be paying even more.
And still the mystery of why the hell do folk in Caithness pay more than ayone else for their fuel. We've been here before and no doubt will be again.
http://hometown.aol.co.uk/MadPict/images/flaminblob.gifMadPict
http://hometown.aol.co.uk/MadPict/images/gruff_ext.gif
You are correct in every respect MadPict, including the fact that nothing will change and the facts will be kept well hidden.
One of the Filling Stations in Caithness applied to extemd it's opening hours. I don't know what excuse was used but permission was refused thus forcing it to keep the same limited hours as every other Filling Station.
My semi-informed conjecture leads me to the conclusion that it was decided that allowing them to open for more hours would give them an unfair advantage of those who did not bother or wish change.
I would call that competition and a refusal to allow it to occur a restrictive practice creating an anti-competitive situation to the detriment of the public!
Mr P Cannop
08-Sep-04, 08:08
in thurso the petrol is 90.9p
concerned resident
08-Sep-04, 10:13
The politicians are the people to blame for the price of petrol in Caithness, Before every election they promise us, that they will fight, and get our petrol prices down, because its so unfair. Once elected, you hear the odd mention, but nothing gets done. I expect as they are down south so much, they would fill up with petrol, before coming north, so it wouldn’t affect them.( Being so few people and so far away, nobody else is interested )
Its time the People of Caithness stood up for them selves.
The Angel Of Death
08-Sep-04, 10:33
We should have a none of the above option on the poll card that way everyone will get the option to vote but also voice there displeasure of the "politicians" at the same time
ok all very well telling us to stand up for ourselves over the prices but how do we go about it, nobody in caithness stands up for anything all we do is gurn about changes but just end up going along with them and never fight over it.
It's the "It's because it's Caithness, it can't be helped" attitude that some adopt which annoys me! They seem to be willing, for whatever persomnal reasons, to accept every excuse they are given.
I am still waiting for somebody with that attitude to explain why it is more expensive to carry goods north to Caithness than it is to take them south to Inverness or why the same distances to the west of Inverness are less expensive to make.
Their silence is deafening and makes me very suspicious.
2little2late
08-Sep-04, 21:22
ok all very well telling us to stand up for ourselves over the prices but how do we go about it, nobody in caithness stands up for anything all we do is gurn about changes but just end up going along with them and never fight over it.
Okay, everyone who uses this message board has some affiliation with Caithness one way or another and you obviously care. If you feel so strongly about this issue then why not send your local MSP an email protesting about it.
Then maybe if he is unindated with emails he may TRY to do something about it in the Scottish parliament. Click on this link and then send Jamie Stone an email and let him know what your feelings are.
Are we allowed to do this though. Before I get a possible ban?http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/msp/membersPages/jamie_stone/contact.htm
Wot about just boycoting every fuel station on the county, bar 1 in each town. Rotate it about every fortnight, say for the next 2 weeks everyone only uses richards garage (wick and thursa) then after 2 weeks pick another one in each town. if we manage to shut down their little cartel we might get cheaper fuel as whoever was left would be sellin loadsapetrol. In fact make them an offer, we'll use their fuel station exclusively if they are the first to drop the price by 10p a litre regardless of what the others do. We could call ourselves something like the "Caithness.Org Forums Fuel Economics Executive" (C.O.F.F.E.E), not as a natty as NAG I no but worth a try. This is not my idea about boycotting tbh, read it on here somewhere i think but i'm sure its a winnah!
I have heard it said that people in Caithness are less likely to complain than anywhere else. Wherever there are issues to be faced or things that need to be said it appears that there are few people willing to open their mouths and confront issues. I have seen this many times in my work and when dealing with a wide variety of organisations. In fact, it appears that often people here prefer not to speak out. I have seen again and again that some people here, as soon as their position is queried they take steps to shut those people up. This is a ridiculous way for those with responsibilty to behave. It stifles development and initiative and means that the same voices are heard again and again and its only those who are gobby enough or foolhardy enough to speak their minds. This is hard work for those who cannot let an issue die but feel that they have to say something rather than let something they are unhappy or appalled by pass by.
We have seen this happen again and again, hospitals, dentist, petrol prices and other issues and other places. Folk HAVE to stand up to be counted they have to open their mouths and people HAVE to listen otherwise Caithness and its population will continue to fall as people look for a better deal elsewhere.
Well said squidge, every word you said is correct in every aspect.
People, especially the young geneneration, now vote with their feet. The days of "It was good enough for me so it should be good enough for you child!" is past and it's time it was realised.
Stifle people for to long and they up-sticks and go elsewhere. The long sung refrain of "They used us then took their riches and ran." does not wash. The truth is that they were forced out by self-nterested parties. What they cannot control they force out.
The population of Caithness is declining because of the realisation by many that the only people they owe anything to is themselves and their dependants. They see a less stifled way of life elsewhere and use their talents there with them rather than waste them here.
The question of "Why did they leave?" is not the real question that just passes the buck!
The real question Caithness should be asking is "What can we do to make them want to stay. What are we doing wrong?"
The question of petrol and supermarkets etc is just a good example of what is being done that is wrong. Self interest take the place of what is in the general good!
ZenMaster
11-Sep-04, 15:48
They see a less stifled way of life elsewhere and use their talents there with them rather than waste them here.
I couldn't wait to leave Thurso for uni. Now I have kids I can see the benefits of a remote community and we're thinking of moving back for various reasons, all to improve our quality of life. When I left in the late 80s it seemed depressed but on a recent visit coupled with positive reports from a friend, it appears the town is on the up (almost full employment?). I hope Wick sees some investment as the problems caused by unemployment affects the whole of Caithness.
I totally agree that Caithness is a wonderful place to bring up children, I can think of few places in Britain which are better.
Unfortunately most people who leave Caithness are unable to return because the choice they have is to have a good job and stay away from Caithness or return to Caithness and give up their well paid job.
You only need to read this message board to see how many people live elsewhere but are still interested and in love with Caithness.
tides of pentland firth
11-Sep-04, 22:09
if we manage to shut down their little cartel we might get cheaper fuel as whoever was left would be sellin loadsapetrol. In fact make them an offer, we'll use their fuel station exclusively if they are the first to drop the price by 10p a litre regardless of what the others do. Its not the pertol stations fault. I know they make a very small profit margin on the petrol they sell. I think is about 3p a litre. This might be incorrct as I have a bad memory but its not a few pence more (please correct me if im wrong). So you see a drop of 10p would be impossibe for the garages to create themselves. This is all the big fuel corporations' fault. An idea like Zael's i'm sure would push small independant filling stations like elmtree and CYMA in Wick and the one infront of Lidl's in Thurso (sorry the name escapes me) to the wall, when it's not their fault the price is so high. If the profit margin were to rise for these garages but the fuel prices stayed the same the mabey the idea would be justified.
So why don't filling stations outwith the area who are in similarly remote areas go out of business.
Perhaps the people who manage the big fuel corporations have all sat down and said, "What shall we do today, chaps? I know, let's all pick on Caithness!"
Who has the contract to deliver the petrol? Does anybody know?
tides of pentland firth
12-Sep-04, 13:11
Scottish fuels delivers fuel for the National stations. Its scottish fuels at the BP depo in Scrabster.
Why delivers to the others?
tides of pentland firth
12-Sep-04, 19:32
Perhaps the people who manage the big fuel corporations have all sat down and said, "What shall we do today, chaps? I know, let's all pick on Caithness!"
I totaly agree with you. Can't think of a better reason why.
2little2late
12-Sep-04, 22:47
What Caithness needs is a politician who will fight for the good of Caithness. Looks like the local M.P. and M.S.P. aren't at all interested. If they were they would tell the people of Caithness "We are with you all the way".
You voted to put them there, it is up to you to give them a push and tell them what you want.
Better still, why doesn't somebody stand as an Independant at the next elections?
Someone who is a people person. After all if nothing is done about the falling population and the rising prices the politicians will walk all over you.
You have got to fight back. Let them know how angry you feel.
After all it is their lively hoods in your hands as well as your lively hoods in their hands.
It's about time the people of Caithness made a stand and put up a decent fight.
It's easy to moan about things on this message board, but what are you actually going to do about it?
Maybe Zael wants to try
I think that would be right up his street ;)
na, i reckon the politicians locally have as much power to change things as we do, not much. I've heard that you (perhaps only businesses) can buy your fuel in bulk from the suppliers in scrabster at about 20p a litre less than you buy it at the pumps. Think you have to be buying about 5000 litres though, but if this is the case then the filling stations must be making at least that in profit from their sales. Sure once you factor in their miserable car sales businesses they only make 3p a litre but this is due to inefficency and low sales, so close a few down and the ones that are left will make better profit and still be able to drop the price by 10p a litre.
Its all going to be down to which of the cartel is willing to break ranks and drop their price, we'd all use a filling station that was 10p a litre cheaper and if the others could not maintain themselves then fine. Close em down.
Zael must be an idiot, If you only have a 3p per litre profit how could you ever sell for 10p less? If a business could buy fuel 20p a litre cheaper wouldnt people start doing that, then again there is the issue of having a petroleum licence! You cannot store more than a few litres of petrol without one.
If every drop of petrol in caithness came from one company on one site it still would be a tiny drop of what is sold nationally(or even compared to Inverness)
If its so easy why doesnt zael store his own petrol and sell it for his 10p less, he would make a fortune if its so easy!!!!!!
I think that Zael make perfect sense, they only make 3p profit because they are so badly run. If you can't understand that then I guess that you aren't in a position to call anyone an idiot.
I'm sure he would start a new business if he had half a chance but if tesco can't get planning permission then I'm pretty sure that zael wouldn’t have much chance.
AR, you really must try harder! Didn't Teacher Write that in your exercise books.
If a Company the size of Tesco were banned from Caithness because they were going to upset the apple cart(el) then what chance would any individual have.
The only thing you would get any permissions for would be a trip over the Ord.
Fuel distributers usually base their costs on turnover and the throughput of fuel via the larger outlets in Caithness will not be much different than that of all but the most massive ones in Inverness , i.e. Tesco, Safeway, and perhaps two others at the most.
The reason, and the only reason, for the price differential is called Competition, repeat that AD, C o m p e t i t i o n. If your product is too dear the punters go elsewhere.
Businesses like nothing more than a captive audience with nowhere else to go.
Can somebody please tell me who has the "Back-scratcher" please, I've got a terrible problem with an itch, promise I'll do your's later!
tides of pentland firth
15-Sep-04, 21:23
You can't say they're run badly when really you have absolutely no clue what so ever about how these businesses are run. The council stoped Tesco because they knew it would put the smaller garages out of business. I'm not saying they were right or wrong but The Council decided. You make it sound like the mangers of the garages got together in a smokey tavern and decide over a game of poker that they were going to bribe the council or something. This cartel you speak of is total nonsense and don't say that the garages are badly run until you are in a positon to do so. [mad]
...but The Council decided.
Hmmm
i reckon the politicians locally have as much power to change things as we do, not much
Seems like they have the power to decide that the people of Caithness should continue to pay extortionate and exorbitant rates for their petrol rather than offering them a chance to buy cheaper petrol.
Competition is healthy and necessary. If Tesco had put a store selling petrol in Wick then some of the petrol stations would maybe have had to .......oh whats that word.... diversify thats it. Maybe they might have reduced in number, They may have decided that they can maintain their price and still get customers. They operate accounts which the account holders would still need to have so they could pay at the end of the month.
I am sure there wasnt a "cartel" indulging in games of poker and sipping on their Jack Daniels taking pics of some of our elected representatives in compromising positions with unsuitable ladies of ill repute to ensure that the Tesco store didnt get its planning permission. :eek:
I am however puzzled that the greater good for the population of Caithness did not override any objections.
I wonder what a poll would show - who would be in favour of a retailer like Tesco or Safeways opening a petrol station and offering petrol at the price we can get it in Inverness?
Zael - maybe now it has been demonstrated that the politicians locally HAVE got some power perhaps you'll reconsider...............
VOTE ZAEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh dear tides of pentland firth, you do have an active imagination.
Perhaps my ego is getting the better of me and it is not my post that you are refering to.
If it is, then I don't remember making any of the accusations you accuse me of.
The one thing you are correct on is that the Council decided on what can only be described as a Restrictive Practice in order to manipulate the market in petrol sales. At least that is what you have just described. If a business was found to be doing that then the Office of Fair Trade would rapidly resolve the situation, that is what it is there to prevent.
What you have in fact said is that the Council was acting for the benefit of a few people who run certain businesses. That is not what Councils are there for and I am sure that they will be at great pains to refute that suggestion if asked. That being the case then I must assume that they refused Tescos for a different reason!
Oh yes, and are you sure that I haven't been involved in the Garage Trade?
Mr ben, only having 3p per litre has nothing to do with being badly run or not, it appears to be a very low profit, with a low turnover it makes for a poor living.
At 3 p profit you have to sell 150 litres of fuel per hour to pay the wages of the attendent, then there is electric, rates, water and sewrage, and maintence charges on top before you make a profit.
And if as zael was saying the fuel can bought in 5000litre quantitys for20p less, why havent petrol stations noticed? Im sure if the profits are so small any garage would be delighted if you came along to buy their fuel stations! The amount of people in the whole of caithness, is still a 1/3rd of inverness city alone.
But of coarse 80 odd% of the fuel costs is TAXES!!
ok AR, looks like you dont understand what profit is.
Profit is the money you have left AFTER you have paid your expenses, i.e. the wages bill, the leccy bill, vat bill etc etc.
So what I'm saying is that they are spending at least 17p per litre on these expenses, thats if they have to pay as much for thier fuel, which they probably dont, the Taxi firm was getting this once a year or so and I'd imagine the filling stations use 5000 litres in less than a week so with big volume sales comes big volume discounts.
btw, 150 litres and hour equates to about 3 or 4 people filling up their car an hour, you only need about 100 customers doing this a week to cover your 5000 litres, easy one.
Also, its very easy to juggle the figures when you have more than one arm in your business, how much of the takings from fuel sales are used to prop up the highly expensive and poor car sales business and even more expensive and pretty useless repairs business.
I'd be more interested to hear the level of profit made by say, Elm Tree as most of its sales will be fuel only.
Then of course we get the "it costs more to get it to caithness" argument. Well thats a lot of rubbish, yes there are additional costs, but not to the extent that we are led to believe. Look at the same argument from Morrisons just now, what a lot of fluff, the corner shops in this town are now cheaper for most items than Morrisons, where is the extra cost for them?
Why AR are you so keen to have us all cut our own throats and continue bleeding ourselves dry at the pumps so a few members of our community can swan about in big cars and live in fancy houses, does the AR stand for Alistair Richards?
Zael, I'm starting to agree with squidge, you seem to have your finger on the pulse, far more than almost all out elected representatives, and you are certainly eloquent.
I think you would stand a good chance of getting elected and making a difference.
The present representatives are frightened to death of a 'breath of fresh air' let alone the 'wind of change' you could supply!
You might even frighten them from the general state of torpor that they have descended into whilst their heads were buried in the sand.
tides of pentland firth
16-Sep-04, 20:21
I found out this today, just about every business in Wick fought the plans of Morrison's petrol station, not just the garages. The store would be selling newspapers, milk etc, and this before the coop or safeway sold papers. They have since started selling them. The council stopped this development to stop the heart getting ripped out of our fair town. Is the breath of fresh air the closing of DRs because everyone is just nipping out to the pumps to get the paper, or binends for a bottle of wine, or the grocery shop at the end of Willowbank? The list is endless. Is that what people want just for a few pence of their petrol? We have to support the local businesses rather that big multinationals, where a filling station in Wick is just a drop in the ocean. If you were elected Zeal, who would you support? Morrison's or the local businesses?
Also, who do you know that swans around in fancy cars from selling petrol?
tides of pentland firth
16-Sep-04, 20:34
If AR is A Richard, which he/she isn't. Don't you think he would know a hell of a lot more that any of us about the whole business?
Oh yes, and are you sure that I haven't been involved in the Garage Trade?
The same to you.
Is the breath of fresh air the closing of DRs because everyone is just nipping out to the pumps to get the paper, or binends for a bottle of wine, or the grocery shop at the end of Willowbank?
Hang on DRs sells a million other things apart from the papers - and the newspapers and magazines are far far more than you would see in any filling station, all the local papers and all the specialist magazines. The tesco filling station in Inverness for example sells chocolate crisps sandwiches and drinks, emergency toiletries - toothbrushes, soap, etc, the main daily papers and a very few magazines. It also sells maps and "car bits" . Simply introducing a filling station in Wick isnt going to wipe out the custom for DRs for papers, or bin ends for a nice bottle of wine or the grocery store on willowbank for butter! It might change things but to grow you have to change.
We pay over the odds for petrol in Caithness, for reasons that have not been properly explained. We need investment and jobs, Tesco could very well have provided those exact things. Tesco would have been a worthy competitor for Morrisons and would have certainly been here sooner and been well established by now forcing prices down throughout all the supermarkets and the petrol stations and how welcome would that be.
You talk about a few pennies well the extra cost of petrol mounts up from a few pennies to hundreds of pounds over a year and thats whats so unfair.
The same to me? Tides, you forgot the "with nuts on" part. Please explain, I'm a little to dull to work that one out.
If the profit on petrol is only 3p, does that mean that the rest of the Filling Stations in Britain have all gone bankrupt? Perhaps they get massive subsidies that haven't spread as far as Caithness yet. Or perhaps they sell fuel at a loss out of the goodness of their hearts.
The resounding silence from those who do "know a lot more than any of us about the whole business" speaks volumes. The total silence tells it's own story.
Contrary to the belief of some, the fact is that retail outlets are there for the benefit of the customers and not the customers for the benefit of the retail outlets. Pure self interest is the only reason they do not like the idea of competition. Town Centres should not expect to exist purely because they are there. If they cannot compete in the modern world then they must go the way of the gas light.
And still nobody has come forward with a good explanation as to why petrol is so much more expensive in Caithness.
tides of pentland firth
17-Sep-04, 08:13
Garages in Caithness sell a lot less petrol than anywhere else in the country. Also, the ratio of filling stations to customers is unique and that can't be good for business i.e. The number of customers for each garage is very low. I thought that was obvious. You cant say, "The resounding silence from those who do "know a lot more than any of us about the whole business" speaks volumes. The total silence tells it's own story.", because probably none of them use this forum. There's only the five of us arguing here just now and only about a thousand people have looked at this forum. A thousand out of about 27000 in the county. You can't say that's fair.
Also, the ratio of filling stations to customers is unique and that can't be good for business
Bang! on the head, thats why we as customers should be looking to put one or more of them out of business. Like I said, give the businesses the choice which one, let them have a chance to play ball and drop their prices, weather the losses until one of them goes bust.
I dont see what the big problem with this is. Businesses go bust up here all the time, I dont see many folk shouting about that, desperately trying to keep them open. How many of the local shops in the town have changed hands over the years, most of them. Look at the harbour chippy, the corner shop in girnigoe street, and many more. We can only hope that the new owners can strike a better balance of fair prices and profit (or quality chips). Putting local businesses down is in our favour. They have to realise that in todays world of online ordering, we're not going to get ripped off as often as we used to. At the end of the day, the consumer rules, do we really care who we buy our goods from (to a degree) as long as its good product and good price. What we pay for and should be happy to pay for is convenence, like the corner shop or the chippy, the shop os open late at night and the chippy saves us cooking.
As for morrisons, why would I support a business thats more expensive and less convenient than my corner shop?? The more people up here that realise that morrisons is far more expensive than even safeways was, the better. Let them close (please) and allow someone who's willing to give us good prices and a better choice move in.
As for tescos being put off last time they tried, that made me sick. That week when the news was in the groat (and I'm sure someone can check this). some community councillor was on the front page saying wick could not support another supermarket as there was not enough cash in the town and further in the paper the same bloke was responding to the "false" plans to renovate dominos into a nightclub/bowling alley/cinema by saying that it was just what the town needed. Although with no money how could we support an endeavour like that? Watch out for another false planning application from the owners soon, it stops them having to demolish the building or do anything about it, every five years or so it will come round again.
Bodies like the community council should have to publicise their private interests, like their business or families business as this always seems to be at the back of their objections. With big government, anyone who has a vested interest has to declare it and not take part in any decision making process due to their tainted viewpoint. This does not seem to apply at a local level, with a publican on the community council, we had to expect that they would object to something like wetherspoons. Why is this sort of thing allowed? Everyone I know was delighted to hear that tescos might come up here with a fuel station attached for all kinds of good reasons, then to have it taken away over some "planning" reason is just typical of the way we are considered by those in a position to change things. The planning department should also be there to help businesses move to the area, not just oppose them.
An interesting aside, how many people knew that the current chair of wick community council is none other than the bidey-in of the disgraced brian whitelaw, general doer of bad things to this county, might this explain the recent attacks from the community council towards the council and our councillors.
Jaws feels i have my finger on the pulse, not really, I've just lived here long enough to have several different sources of gossip and info, put them all together and you get quite an interesting picture of the goings on in this county. As for our elected officials (a group i dont want to become part of), I think we have a much more solid set of reps now that we ever had before, gone are the days of the muppets (jim henson could not touch em), andy eyebroos, jim oag etc etc, makes me shudder to think that these people were deciding the fate of our town. Thank friday those days have gone. I think we have a pretty good set of councillors now, at least this end of the county, independent thinking for a change, fresh ideas for a change, things actually getting better for a change. Sure there are still a few that need to realise that we're past 1940 now and we do need to fight to keep our county growing. Rather than sleep though meetings (if they even turn up) and just do it all for the expenses. Our new councillors seem to be taking a much more professional approach to things, they're pretty well qualified and seem to actually give a damn about more than just their own existance.
Perhaps this new lot will be more in favour of bringing companies like tesco (or asda) to the county, as along with the jobs created comes competition, which the area can stand a great deal more of. If the corner shops can compete with the supermarkets then so should the filling stations, at the very least they should compete with each other but they seem to be scared to do this in case they dont win and have to close.
2little2late
17-Sep-04, 16:56
Well said Zael.
The name of the game is competition. This is how most towns and cities prosper. The more competition there is surely the better?
Here in Perth we have one Asda, three Tesco's, one Safeway/Morrisons and one co-op.
Okay, so the poulation of Perth is bigger than the whole of Caithness. But do we really need three Tesco's?
If the people use them, then yes we do.
Stop whinging about putting other stores etc. out of business. If they don't want competition then so be it.
If Tesco want to build a supermarket with a filling station then surely this can only be good for the people. The people of Caithness complain about the price of fuel, even the local councillors and MSP's complain about it. Then, when Tesco want to build a supermarket with a filling station. The councillors refuse planning permission.
Where's the logic in that?
I suggest the people of Caithness get off their behinds, and instead of moaning about it on this message board you do something about it. Or aren't you capable of putting up a fight?
Zael,
i think the suggestion is that you stand as an independent for Westminster not for the local council . there will probably be a general election next year so why don't you take up the idea and be our representative in London, independent of all the political parties . you could be like george galloway and be the people's MP like him.
Vote Zael for MP in 2005!!!
Tides, this is by no means the only time that the subject has come up and this is not the only place. But always the silence.
I have not heard even one sensible suggestion so far for the price differences other than lack of competition, restrictive practices and a Closed Shop.
tides of pentland firth
18-Sep-04, 16:45
Zael!!! I've explained already. If you're a garage, making 5p per liter, how can you possibly drop your prices by 10p. That would mean the more customers you had, the more money you would lose. You might as well save your time by standing on the corner of the high street and handing £10 notes to everyone!
I recently found out that the problem is the oil companys (and the government). They have a banding system across the country: Grangemouth having the cheapest fuel, Caithness, unfortunately, having the dearest. John Thurso knows this as well as all the councillors in the north and there is squat they can do about it about it.
If Tesco did build a filling station they too would be running at a loss. The only difference is it would get people into their supermarkets, thus putting just about every shop in caithness out of business.
Also the prices don't look like they are ever going to come down now so it's just too bad for us living here. The only hope we have is if the government decides to either cut tax (a whopping 75%) or decide that BP's banding system is unfair and I think it is the latter that John Thurso is fighting for.
I thought Lidl were already supposed to do that if they were allowed to open, and Wetherspoons were going to close all the Licensed Premises, and on and on it goes.
Always the same threat of disaster to avoid anything new.
The arguement about Tesco selling petrol will not wash either, it is one way which would stop the oil companies and the government picking on Caithness by having a spacial 'band' which does not appear to affect anywhere else.
The only way that they can maintain that is because they have no competition!
tides of pentland firth
18-Sep-04, 18:23
The banding system affects the whole of Scotland, im not making this up, Jaws. The further north you go the more expensive it gets. Aberdeen is more expensive then Edinburgh. Inverness more expensive than Glasgow and Caithness is more expensive than anywhere else so don't say it doesnt affect anywhere else because it does. I bet this happens elsewhere in the UK, such as remote region of Wales etc.
Then why was it that the last time I travelled south the prices south of the border were roughly the same as Inverness? as were the prices at Stirling and on the M74 south of Glasgow?
Perhaps I have always been lucky in my choice of Filling Stations.
I dont think many people would support a candidate for westminster on the issue of fuel prices. Plus I knowfor a fact that I disagree with too many people on other topics to be a good representative. Nice of you to say though :)
Tides, you're going to have to provide some checkable information on this banding you speak of before I'll put much credence to it, I recently had to drive to bradford from wick and the fuel was cheaper in inverness that it was around manchester (although both places were cheaper by at least 12p than caithness prices). Plus I really dont understand why you want to argue on behalf of the cartel, are you a filling station employee?
I'm all for supporting local business, the good ones manage to get by on a lot less profit than could be made if they wanted to, but for most they realise that we can all trip off to inverness for shopping or order online and to keep themselves in business they compete as best they can with the big guns. I'm perfectly willing to pay a little more to have goods/services on my doorstep as even ordering online can incur delivery costs that offset the good price. What makes the fuel problem unique is the fact that we cannot order our fuel online or always get it in inverness. If the filling stations were willing to compete even a little, then I, and others, would not have a problem. They're even at it in thurso now, I believe the reason for the higher price up there is because there is more money in thurso than wick at the moment with all the well paid jobs at dounreay and the battery factory. Think about it, on our 5000 litres, that may or may not come from scrabster, at 1p per litre difference, thats £50 extra profit, it all adds up to there being some pretty shady goings on in the fuel industry. Unless of course the fuel comes from the south and takes in wick before it goes to thurso, that would mean that a fuel delivery vehicle costs about £100 per hour (lol) After watching something like farenheit 911, I am convinced that everyone involved in the fuel industry is corrupt and should not be trusted. Roll on the solar powered car :)
tides of pentland firth
19-Sep-04, 16:24
Im not going to post on this subject again because I'm fed up of it. It makes no difference if people know or think they know about it because it won't change a thing. But, before I go:
My whole point all along. There is not a big enough margin for competition!!!
There is a banding system. The reason you don't see it (I didn't explain clearly before) is because different garages across the country sell at different margins. eg. A garage in Caithness might buy for 86p, sell for 90p. A garage in Inverness buys for 75p, sells for 80p. A garage in Glasgow buys for 70p, sells for 80p. Same prices in Inverness and Glasgow, but Inverness makes 5p per liter, Glasgow makes 10p. Understand? When you make 10p per liter and have 10000s of customers every week it's easy to put your prices up and down to compete but not when your barely making 5p, just keeping your head above water. All the garages in Caithness keep their prices about the same because that is the lowest price they can sell it for and still make a profit.
I'm not giving away my secret identity. Just trust me, I know.
Finally, looks like BP are going to ditch their Scrabster depo (which is not technicaly BP it is Scottish Fuels, an Irish company?!, but BP gave birth to Scottish Fuels) so even higher prices on the way.
And finally we run out of "reasons", as each one was knocked down another equally weak one appeared. At least the last one sounded a little bit reasonable, but it took a long time to be "discovered" as a reason.
But every argument put forward is simply removed by one word, Competition. That is the reason for the lower prices elsewhere.
If somebody is selling fuel cheaper than the places tied to Oil Companies then the Oil Companies are not so stupid as to see their trade disappear through their own high wholesale prices.
Their wholesale prices would soon be brought into line to keep their place in the market and local outlets would still be able to have a reasonable mark up at lower retail prices.
This has been an interesting exercise in that well known Caithness game of "Hunt the next excuse!".
The only one I haven't heard is that Bulk Carriers cannot use the Suez Canal and therefore have to travel further round the south of Africa to get here.
When i was refering to the profit on litre of petrol, the 3p was gros profit not nett!If there is such money to be made in petrol why is there no petol being sold in the east of caithness now south of thrumster? A few years ago there was lybster, latheron and dunbeath(ages ago).
Zael couldnt become a politician anyway, he/she tells the truth, well as far as they know anyway!!(joke).
ar doesnt stand for alister richards(or is it richard?)He doesnt live very far from me and i cant say ive seen a fancy car there, everyone else along there has bmws etc. I like everyone else would like cheaper fuel, but the biggest part of the cost is the rip off governments cut(said it before)
I have it on good authority AR, that the Chancellor insists that all parts of Britain pay the same amount of tax on fuel and does not impose and excess on Caithness.
As for fuel south of Thrumster, they probably went out of business because they were unable to adjust to modern conditions.
The same question could be asked of the lack of operative smithies in the area. Why have so many smithies gone out of business as is shown by the number of premises of that origin who haven't seen a horse in years.
I do understand that the tax is the same across the uk, but is still far higher than elsewhere in the world, and the more the cost of the fuel the more the VAT, equalls more money for the government to squander. But 'tides' story seams to make most sense, and scottish fuels is an irish owned company.
I think the government should subsidise road fuels in rural areas by some means or another. If you use 40 litres of petrol a week, in a year you would use 2080 per year, saving 10p(for example) would save you £208 a year, not really a huge amount, but better in your pocket,maybe everyone with a KW postcode could get free road tax as a start.Dont know if something like that would work, and of coarse would be open to abuse.
I totally agree about the excessive amount of tax extorted from transport users by our Governments. They still think of cars as the 'rich man's play-thing' of one hundred years ago. Noisy mechanical things that frighten the horses!
There is not a snowball in hell's chance of any Chancellor reducing fuel tax in rural areas. Their answer would be to tax people elsewhere more and then point out how lucky you are that they are not penalising rural areas the same way.
Am I to understand that Scottish Fuels deliver every litre of fuel used by motorists in Scotland? If that is the case then surely that would constitute a Monopoly and that would be illegal!
tides of pentland firth
27-Sep-04, 21:54
Did anyone hear the news that two petrol stations are closing everyday, especially in rural areas. Need I say more?
Yes, it's called "Voting with your feet!" or in this case with your petrol tank!
Hi, I'm new to this sort of thing, but my goodness these messages take some reading! The comments have been varied and heated but as yet no one of any significant standing has even whispered a response to what people have been saying. Yes the prices in Caithness are extortionate, yes there seems to be some sort of telepathy between all the garages as they all put their prices up within minutes of each other (and you know who you are, i've seen you changing your prices whilst I've been on my school run which takes me past most of you). When I challenged one of the garages I was told "Well you should have seen the prices here in '91". Excuse me, where do you think I've been living, Planet Zogg?? The prices are rediculous, it's got to the stage where if I'm going through to Wick, where one or two garages are cheaper, I fill up there before coming back across the county. If I'm away down the road to Inverness I do a splash and dash here and fill up properly when I get down and fill up again before I come back, at least that'll see me through the next week or so. Come on guys, have some sense and give us a break. You may think we're all daft and that 'och I'll say something later' attitude'll save you, but we're not stupid. We're fed up with the price of petrol, fed up with the attitude from the petrol companies, fed up of being dumped on. Help the community by reducing your petrol prices PLEASE. I don't mind if your a couple of pence more than Inverness/Alness but have a heart. And before any of you have a go at me why don't you have a go at your suppliers eh??? ;)
Kaz
you will get no gripes from me ref. your posting, I agree with you wholeheartedly, it was posted with passion and common sense, more than I can say about some of our regulars [disgust]
Well Done for a newbie hope we see more of your postings
Golach
I have been reading this debate with some interest and have been particulary perplexed by the attitudes of some towards local business.
With particular reference to petrol. I know that petrol retailers operate on a tiny percentage. As a general rule maybe around 5%. The entire business stratergy is based around a high averge spend per customer. To fill up you car costs say 40 quid.
1000 customers a week all spending 40 quid gives takings of 40k. Five percent of 40k is 2k.
Two thousand a week profit. Sounds a lot. By the time you pay staff, rates, bills etc the left over is not a great deal.
Plus how many garages in Caithness get 1000 customers per week all spending 40 quid.
They dont so what do they do. Increase the 5% to may 8%. Hence the higher prices.
Petrol will not cost any more to transport to Caithness than to anywhere else.
Other products provided you are buying in bulk cost exactly the same as elsewhere in the highlands.
My last point is can we please stop thinking that big suprmarkets are the answer to our prays. I can assure you that if Tesco or Asda came to Caithness they would be cheap, but they would drive every small business in our towns to the wall. Once that has been done you as consumer will have no choice. Towns will have no character and you will be at their mercy.
Certainly some of our smaller shops could do better and could be cheaper. They are however in many cases the fabric which holds the community together. This maybe sentimental rubbish to some people however see how nice our town centers will be when there are no grocers butches bakers etc, just pubs, bookmakers and charity shops.
The "Supermarkets will kill everything" argument is at least 50 years old and hasn't succeeded yet.
Similar sized Petrol Stations through out the Highlands will have a similar turnover, similar overheads, similar staff costs and cheaper prices. All things being equal the only difference is cheaper prices elsewhere.
Businesses are there to provide a service for customers and not customers to provide a service for businesses. Every extra pound that things cost means a pound less in the customers pocket.
My heart bleeds for the customers, many on very low incomes, and not for the businesses!
The "Supermarkets will kill everything" argument is at least 50 years old and hasn't succeeded yet
The most notable decline has occurred in the number of outlets in the grocery sector. The number of food outlets fell from 13,940 in 1977 to 9,669 in 1993 . This drop of 31% reflects a growing concentration in the grocery sector in which a smaller number of organisations serve the market through fewer but generally larger stores (Lambkin, 1996). For example, in 1977, 2% of retail outlets in the grocery sector accounted for 25% of turnover: however, by 1993, 2% of retail outlets accounted for 50% of turnover
Grocery outlets can be subdivided into three main categories: Multiples (supermarkets), Symbol Groups (collaborative groups of independents e.g. SPAR), Independents (single proprietors). Most of the concentration in the grocery sector has been brought about by four supermarket chains which, with 137 outlets between them, have 59.5% of the grocery market (Attwood Research, 1995). This growing concentration is clearly illustrated by Table 4 which highlights the decline in the number of outlets operated by Independent retailers and the growth of Multiples between 1977 and 1993.
source A.C Neilson Retail census 1994.
Of the top of my head this was the fastest I could find to show that boring as it is Supermarkets are killing everything. Ok it is a few years old but I know the trend has incresed in speed over the last ten years with supermarkets purchasing local stores buy the thousand.
In my opinion the public in this country always get thier own way in the end.The supermarket is what everone wants and that is what we will get. Market forces mean that you will be able to buy your tin of beans fo 10p or your chicken for 2 quid.
If this makes you happy you will live in a perfect world.
All I ask is that you consider for a minute the local economy.
Once you spend in a supermarket the money is placed in a van and driven to where ever.
Supporting the local economy has a positive benefit to us all.Local pounds staying Local.
As for people on low incomes do you think Lord Sainsbury gives a toss about low income families.
Does Mr Asda spares a thought for the old wifie who can't get out in the snow and needs a dozen eggs and some tea.
There will in my opinion always be a need for supermarkets. We all need them and we all use them. What I object to is that they have a massive competive advantage over everyone else regardless of quality.
One pound of every eight pound spent in the UK last year went to Tesco.
We will all suffer once there is nowone left to take them on.
Exactly. very well put. Tesco provides what people want or they wouldn't be getting all that trade. Caithness obviously needs a "Tesco" or something very similar.
I presume, from what you say andy, that all the petrol stations in Caithness should close because the money spent there goes outwith the County to the Oil Companies.
As you say, the people get what they want, that is unless self interested groups prevent them getting it.
Of course, we could always go back to the good days before Supermarkets when chicken was a luxury food eaten only on Sundays and boiled ham was only for Sunday Tea or when special visitors came. Now that would benefit people.
arghhhhhhh!!!!
PROFIT = the money you have left AFTER you have paid all your expenses.
PROFIT = the money you put in your pocket AFTER you have paid for everything else.
£2000 profit is whats left AFTER the bills have been paid, how difficult is this to understand? Thats 2 grand to keep as your own, nothing to be paid from that 2000 just put it in your pocket and go home.
The people that keep saying the filling stations must be left with very little as profit obviously dont understand what the word means.
We are being ripped off at the pumps and not just by the government!
Zeal let me clarify somethig here.
Gross profit is the money you have after you sell what you buy.
Net profit is the money you have left after you have paid your expenses from your gross profit.
I dont want to turn this into an accountancy forum but just for the record.
ok, so where does the 5% come from, as far as I can see that can only be net profit as if taxi firms can buy fuel at 20p a litre less than the pump price then the filling stations must be buying in at a cheaper price still.
so gross profit would be about 17.8p per litre and net profit would be as you say around the 5% mark, but thats the point, a net profit per week of £2000!!! I'm in the wrong job!!
Your point about them hiking up the prices because they dont get 1000 full tank sales per week is exactly the point I've been trying to make all along. We as consumers need to close at least one filling station down at each end of the county so that they DO have the volume required to reduce the prices.
I know couple of the people that own filling stations andthey say that 5% gross profit is slightly optimistic. Some companies with a large use of fuel(eg taxies) can get fuel cards, to get petrol approx5-8ppl cheaper(it varies as oil prices go up and down)But tesco etc dont accept these cards, andthey are for businesses only, they also receive their account showing price ex. vat, so it can look 20ppl cheaper. Both filling stations i know of are in town, and one of them told me they sell about 25000 litres per week.
Cartels? I thought that was when everything was the same price. In Wick not everything is the same price.They say the prices all change more or less at the same time because they all get price change information at the same time, as oil fluctuates in price.
And at least one of them said if they could get their cost back out of their filling stations they would be very happy to sell it to zael or tesco or Bin laden or anyone with legal tender!!
Have you seen the price of unleaded petrol now in Thurso? It's gone up 2p a litre to 91.9!!!! :eek:
SJR, I would feel more sympathetic if I saw "For Sale" signs on any of them.
They never will get anybody to remove these poverty making millstones from around their necks unless they advertise them for sale.
In the meantime I will keep a large box of tissues by the side of me so I can keep wiping away the tears I am shedding for them.
THERE SEEMS TO BE A CARTEL IN WICK AND THURSO BOTH HAVE OUTLETS OF RICHARDS AND DUNNETS AND BOTH WENT UP IN PRICE ON SATURDAY.
THE CHEAPEST FUEL IN CAITHNESS AT THE MOMENT IS AGAIN AT ELM TREE IN WICK DERV AT 91.9 U/L AT 90.0 ppl.l.
think the one at reiss is still about 1 or 2pence cheaper than in town though
I don't know about the Central Belt but it's 10p per litre more expensive here than it is south of the Border. That's about 50p a gallon.
A pound difference for every ten litres is inexcusable.
Another thing, inexcusable, but relevant is Inverness south the majority of fuel stations are owned by the fuel companies or subsiduarys of them, where as here the fuel is sold by the fuel company(bp, shell, esso etc) to the wholesaler(scottish oils,gleaner,highland fuels etc) to the retailer. There is a middle man to take his cut,gleaner and highland have to travel fom inverness, so will scottish oils soon.It still costs more to deliver the fuel in rural areas, distance etc.
Scottish oils will say tht shutting/selling scrabster will save money which they will say will be lost in the increased costs delivering back to caithness by road....
petrol prices up again in Thurso.
All is explained then, the extra price of fuel here is caused by the horrifically long and time consuming journey from Scrabster to Thurso.
The additional expense must be horrific!
It also probably explains why the cost of fuel in other parts of the Highlands is much less.
Getting to Ullapool is far easier than getting from Scrabster to either Thurso or Wick!
If a 22,500 litre HGV tanker did a 300 mile round trip from Inverness to Caithness and back at 6 miles per gallon then the cost in fuel would be about £200.
So the extra cost that the garages should pass onto to due to fuel alone should be 0.89p per litre. And that is calculated using fuel prices that we pay in Caithness!, not the price that fleet operators get it in Inverness.
Being rather drunk at the moment maybe i have read your post wrong.
But as far as i was aware it is only 100 miles to caithness and 100 back not 300 round trip . Also you have it as £200 fuel cost and have it down as 22500 gallons in the tanker .
So to me it would only be an extra 0.008889p per litre extra . not 0.89p to get it here
But maybe my very drunk mind has read this wrong
Being rather drunk at the moment maybe i have read your post wrong.
But as far as i was aware it is only 100 miles to caithness and 100 back not 300 round trip . Also you have it as £200 fuel cost and have it down as 22500 gallons in the tanker .
So to me it would only be an extra 0.008889p per litre extra . not 0.89p to get it here
But maybe my very drunk mind has read this wrong
I added on a few miles, to take into account of drivers local stops. (you know how they faff around?) :D
I think you may have your units in ££££££s rather than ppppps
anyway, the fuel cost of bringing fuel to Caithness still equates to less than 1p per litre, they are still profitting from our location!?
I spoke with a director of Shell a few years ago when I worked there and I brought up the question of why is petrol prices so high in Caithness, his reply was " the demand of petrol is less in the remote areas compared to the larger cities", it isnt the cost.
I was home a few weeks ago and the price of Petriol in Wick was 89.9 I stopped in Dornoch "Shell" petrol station and it was also 89.9 the prices are also the same in the Shell station in Brora so it isnt just Caithness, Sutherland have the same prices.
However the petrol stations in Inverness are mainly superstores, such as your Tescos and Morrisons who are currently having a price war. There prices are 79.9 per ltr.
Here in Aberdeen the prices are 81.9 and are rising and that is the BP's Shell's ESSO's etc..... And Aberdeen is suppose to be the European OIL Capital!
This debate has been going on for years now, the boycots have been tried and tested and failed, someone on this message board suggested going to the local MSP. Has anyone tried this yet?
I was always under the impression that when demand was low, the price drops to increase demand? That is somebody's economic law isn't it? The reverse is when demand is high, supply is tested thus prices increase? So the prices of fuel should be higher in more densely populated areas?
So i can't see how the director of Shell's arguement holds true!?
Dont shoot the messanger, I asked the question and that was the answer I got...... :(
One personally would think that if demand is low then prices would have to increase to keep the balance of revenue........ I dont agree with it, it is totally unfair at this rate we will be going back to horse and cart!
Dont shoot the messanger, I asked the question and that was the answer I got...... :(
One personally would think that if demand is low then prices would have to increase to keep the balance of revenue........ I dont agree with it, it is totally unfair at this rate we will be going back to horse and cart!
I am sorry, but i wasn't being critical at you, only at the explanation you got from your source. :confused
My belief is that we should be paying more for fuel, my only gripe is the amount, 2.5p per litre extra is more understandable than 7p or more sometimes.
BTW i dont understand your 'balance of revenue'? Just because the 'rate of petrol consumption' is less per 'unit area' doesn't mean the 'rate of petrol consumption' is 'less per capita'
They will still be making a profit out of us even with a realistic surcharge due to isolation rather than this ridiculous 7p-10p extra.
Thats ok things like this can always be taken the wrong way. :o)
I really dont have an indepth knowledge in all this as you do. As far as im concernd there just greedy oil giants! Its all politics, and at the end of the day those who live in the highland area have to suffer because of it.
stivagorm
05-Jan-05, 17:17
We have heard it for a long time now, "the price of crued oil has gone up in the middle East" etc, however, speaking to someone recently it has only been a matter of months since the UK has started buying crued oil in from the middle east !
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