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j4bberw0ck
12-Aug-06, 14:32
I hope Dreadnought won't regard me as hijacking his thread, as it was in the Air Travel Security thread that this subject cropped up.

I object entirely to the proposed National Identity Card Scheme. Many people see it as a means of combating crime, terrorism and so on. I see no harm in being legally required to carry say a photocard driver's licence at all times (as they do in France and Germany).

Any views, anyone?

willowbankbear
12-Aug-06, 14:35
I object, as like somebody,was it you?,pointed out I like to keep my privacy. I have nothing to hide b ut I dont want somebody looking through my ins & outs.

cuddlepop
12-Aug-06, 14:51
With the introduction of the young Scot cards they're introducing the concept of carrying identity cards to the teenagers of today,so that when it does become compulsory, in a few years time this generation will accept it as there doing it already.
Me personnely ,idont like the idea but can see as with everything else we'll be railroaded into accepting it.:roll:

BIMBO
12-Aug-06, 14:54
Sorry to be stupid here but how would having ID cards stop a possible terrorist attack? :confused:

sjwahwah
12-Aug-06, 15:20
and they are already doing it to pensioners with the free travel cards!

Kingetter
12-Aug-06, 15:22
and they are already doing it to pensioners with the free travel cards!

Ah But! pensioners aren't the only ones who qualify for free travel cards - well bus passes essentially.

sjwahwah
12-Aug-06, 15:28
aye, but they ken EVERY pensioner in the country will go out and get one simply because they are free...:D

Kingetter
12-Aug-06, 15:31
Though many may not even have heard of them. also, some are too proud to use one - "I pay my way in life, not like all the leeches"!

sjwahwah
12-Aug-06, 15:36
most folk in there 70's I know couldn't wait to get out and get one![lol]

pultneytooner
12-Aug-06, 15:43
the Offences against the Persons Act 1861 is quite adequate protection without taking away any more of our freedoms.

pultneytooner
12-Aug-06, 15:46
Operator: "Thank you for calling Pizza Hut. May I have your national ID number?"

Customer: "Hi, I'd like to place an order."

Operator: "I must have your NIDN first, sir?"

Customer: "My National ID Number, yeah, hold on, it's 6102049998-45-54610."

Operator: "Thank you, Mr. Sheehan. I see you live at 17 Meadowland Drive, and the phone number's 0745 236611. Your office number over at Lincoln Insurance is 0745 230209 and your cell number's 0745 256666. Email address is sheehan@ home.net Which number are you calling from, sir?"

Customer: "Huh? I'm at home. Where d'ya get all this information?"

Operator: "We're wired into the NLHSS, sir."

Customer: "The NLHSS, what is that?"

Operator: "We're wired into theNew Labour Homeland Security System, sir. This will add only 15 seconds to your ordering time"

Customer: (Sighs) "Oh, well, I'd like to order a couple of your All-Meat Special pizzas."

Operator: "I don't think that's a good idea, sir."

Customer: "Whaddya mean?"

Operator: "Sir, your medical records and commode sensors indicate that you've got very high blood pressure and extremely high cholesterol. Your National Health Care provider won't allow such an unhealthy choice."

Customer: "What?!?! What do you recommend, then?"

Operator: "You might try our low-fat Soybean Pizza. I'm sure you'll like it."

Customer: "What makes you think I'd like something like that?"

Operator: "Well, you checked out 'Gourmet Soybean Recipes' from your local library last week, sir. That's why I made the suggestion."

Customer: "All right, all right. Give me two family-sized ones, then."

Operator: "That should be plenty for you, your wife and your four kids, and your 2 dogs can finish the crusts, sir. Your total is £21.99."

Customer: "Lemme give you my credit card number."

Operator: "I'm sorry sir, but I'm afraid you'll have to pay in cash. Your credit card balance is over its limit."

Customer: "I'll run over to the ATM and get some cash before your driver gets here."

Operator: "That won't work either, sir. Your checking account's overdrawn also."

Customer: "Never mind! Just send the pizzas. I'll have the cash ready. How long will it take?"

Operator: "We're running a little behind, sir. It'll be about 45 minutes, sir. If you're in a hurry you might want to pick 'em up while you're out getting the cash, but then, carrying pizzas on a motorcycle can be a little awkward."

Customer: "Wait! How do you know I ride a Motorcycle"?

Operator: "It says here you're in arrears on your car payments, so your car got repo'ed. But your Harley's paid for and you just filled the tank yesterday"

Customer: Well I'll be a "damned'

Operator: "I'd advise watching your language, sir. You've already got a July 4, 2006 conviction for cursing at a cop and another one I see here on September for contempt at your hearing for cursing at a judge." "Oh yes I see here that you just got out from a 90 day stay in s State Correctional Facility. Is this your first pizza since your return to society?

Customer: (Speechless)

Operator: "Will there be anything else, sir?"

Customer: "Yes, I have a coupon for a free 2 litre of Coke".

Operator: "I'm sorry sir, but our ad's exclusionary clause prevents us from offering free soda to diabetics. The New Labout British Constitution prohibits this. Thank you for calling Pizza Hut!"
Double Mmmmmmm[lol]

MadPict
12-Aug-06, 15:50
Doesn't bother me one bit - I already carry a photo driving licence. I'd be more than happy to have a biometric ID.
I don't care if my info is on a computer somewhere else - it is already on a shed load of them now - as are all of yours to some degree.

Go into a shop and they ask for your postcode? Think they just like collecting postcodes?
Get any junk mail? See the line of numbers after your name/address? Thats you that is....
Go to your doctors?
Go to the employment offices?
Got a bank account?
Got a credit card?
Got a car?


All the libertarians bleating about how they want to retain their civil liberties may need to do a double check of exactly where their details are held....

...unless of course they have never ever registered for absolutely anything since the day they popped their head out the womb...

(in fact come to think of it - even before then they were on record somewhere...)

pultneytooner
12-Aug-06, 15:57
I suppose Identity cards will enable amnesiacs to identify themselves.

golach
12-Aug-06, 16:12
I hope Dreadnought won't regard me as hijacking his thread, as it was in the Air Travel Security thread that this subject cropped up.
I object entirely to the proposed National Identity Card Scheme. Many people see it as a means of combating crime, terrorism and so on. I see no harm in being legally required to carry say a photocard driver's licence at all times (as they do in France and Germany).
Any views, anyone?
I on the other hand see nothing wrong with a National Identity scheme, maybe not the one the Government is proposing now, but a scheme similar to as you say France and Germany have, even in Holland they have a scheme where your passport is reduced to card size, I see something along those lines.
Madpict your right, our personal data is a matter of record somewhere already so why not carry some identfication, our parents all did during and after WW2, did they complain? I think not.
This country of ours has gone too far with liberal ideas, thats why the UK is in the state it is now, too many pinko LIBERALS!!!!!!!

sjwahwah
12-Aug-06, 16:13
mad pict... might as well.. get the microchip implant to save yourself carrying around all this documentation and photo ids? go fer it... I here it's the trendiest thing now![lol]

pultneytooner
12-Aug-06, 16:16
Too many right whingers.[lol]

changilass
12-Aug-06, 16:26
Quite like the idea of the ID chip, it would save me having to root through my hadbag to pay for something, they could just scan me and it paid yippee:lol:

sjwahwah
12-Aug-06, 16:27
right..... left..... slanting to the left... slanting to the right.. all the same tosh.

Kingetter
12-Aug-06, 16:28
If chip inserted into skull - would give new meaning to "BRAIN SCAN" right?
"Head this way please"

pultneytooner
12-Aug-06, 16:32
If chip inserted into skull - would give new meaning to "BRAIN SCAN" right?
"Head this way please"
It may be a chip on your shoulder.:)

phoenix
12-Aug-06, 16:36
I remember reading a while back in a David Icke magazine a story about a lady who worked in a lab for BT. When she found out just what the work was about she gave up her £1000 a week job. They {BT} were working with the government to create a microchip which they were hoping to have implanted in everyone in Britain by the year 2005! Obviously things havent gone according to plan! Theyre still working on it it would seem! [lol]

Dreadnought
12-Aug-06, 16:41
It is only a short step from compulsory ID to numbers tattooed on forearms.

Oddquine
12-Aug-06, 16:44
Can't say I'm terribly bothered about having one..I never go anywhere to need one............but I sure do object to paying for it!

If they want us to have them.then we should be given them!

Dreadnought
12-Aug-06, 16:47
I remember reading a while back in a David Icke magazine a story about a lady who worked in a lab for BT. When she found out just what the work was about she gave up her £1000 a week job. They {BT} were working with the government to create a microchip which they were hoping to have implanted in everyone in Britain by the year 2005! Obviously things havent gone according to plan! Theyre still working on it it would seem! [lol]

You don't have your chip and PIN card yet then? Or your satnav box in your car tracking your every move, or the roadside camera every half mile watching where you go?

sjwahwah
12-Aug-06, 16:49
I remember reading a while back in a David Icke magazine a story about a lady who worked in a lab for BT. When she found out just what the work was about she gave up her £1000 a week job. They {BT} were working with the government to create a microchip which they were hoping to have implanted in everyone in Britain by the year 2005! Obviously things havent gone according to plan! Theyre still working on it it would seem! [lol]

well... actually... most of the chips are done with injection... how do you know what's in the injections you're getting from the doc? vaccines and all the rest of it.

sjwahwah
12-Aug-06, 16:51
I remember reading a while back in a David Icke magazine a story about a lady who worked in a lab for BT. When she found out just what the work was about she gave up her £1000 a week job. They {BT} were working with the government to create a microchip which they were hoping to have implanted in everyone in Britain by the year 2005! Obviously things havent gone according to plan! Theyre still working on it it would seem! [lol]
david icke has a magazine??

Dreadnought
12-Aug-06, 16:53
Implanted ID chips are already a reality, they just aren't compulsory yet:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3697940.stm.

MadPict
12-Aug-06, 16:54
I think if they shoved this in your arm you would know about it....[lol] [lol]

sjwahwah
12-Aug-06, 17:02
I think if they shoved this in your arm you would know about it....[lol] [lol]

would you? and that is not the only injections they use, they do use what look like normal syringes. I don't think lots of folk would know jack from adam. I wouldn't!

MadPict
12-Aug-06, 17:17
would you? and that is not the only injections they use, they do use what look like normal syringes. I don't think lots of folk would know jack from adam. I wouldn't!

They do, do they? And you know because -
a) you have a friend who has had it done
b) you have a relative who does it
c) you read it in Tree Huggers Monthly
d) Jack told you Adam had

For someone who stays well away from vaccinations etc you have probably forgotton what a syringe even looks like....


...unless you Google it....

phoenix
12-Aug-06, 17:18
You don't have your chip and PIN card yet then? Or your satnav box in your car tracking your every move, or the roadside camera every half mile watching where you go?

Yep I have one of these cards, no store cards though, dont have a satnov {whatever that is}, what roadside camera every half hour watching you? Unplugged Sky a while back, {that reminds of another story I read.....theres supposed to be a fish eye camera installed in every digibox so "they" can watch you } got rid of BT and Microsoft, was given a mobile at xmas its lying deid in a corner somewhere, I have no unnesescarry gadgets, dont like electronic things ie cars with windows that go up and down at the press of a button or that thingy that you press to open the doors, given the choice Id have an old 2CV! I avoid shops if I can, everything I have is what I NEED, if I dont NEED it then I dont buy it. Im the old school.........not into technology, I prefer using my brain {whats left of it} rather than allowing the powers that be to tell me how to do things........I AM in control of me! :cool:

sjwahwah
12-Aug-06, 17:22
you go phoenix!:D I respect that view! I always get accused of being a Luddite but, I'm not... just like simplicity and necessity and enjoy well thought out technology! (there ain't much of it either!)

btw.. SATNAV (Satellite Navigation) is for people that can't read good old fashioned paper maps.[lol]

phoenix
12-Aug-06, 17:31
well... actually... most of the chips are done with injection... how do you know what's in the injections you're getting from the doc? vaccines and all the rest of it.


Didnt know that! I haven't had that many injections from the Doc, only the vacinations when I was little. They do have a habit of wanting blood of me though! :(

Dont know if David Icke still does the magazine. He used to do one called Bridge of Love, If I remember correctly someone else took over from him, they could still be doing it not too sure though! :)

j4bberw0ck
12-Aug-06, 17:34
btw.. SATNAV (Satellite Navigation) is for people that can't read good old fashioned paper maps.[lol]

This is getting tedious........ another thing to add the encyclopaedia-sized list of things that sjwahwah doesn't by her own admission understand, use or know anything about! Wow.....

sj, there are so many things you say you know nothing of (like technology) and yet you have all this expertise in tiny microchips capable of being injected by a GP, selection of brainwashed thugs for Special Forces duty, RF emissions from power lines, wind turbines, cognitive dysfunction, use of TV for suborning the nation's young..........

Extraordinary. Are you perhaps multiple personalities? :lol:

phoenix
12-Aug-06, 17:40
you go phoenix! I respect that view! I always get accused of being a Luddite but, I'm not... just like simplicity and necessity and enjoy well thought out technology! (there ain't much of it either!)

btw.. SATNAV (Satellite Navigation) is for people that can't read good old fashioned paper maps.
Whats a Luddite? :confused I know where youre coming from sj, BTDTGTTS.........heres to Back to Basics and simplicity!

So thats what Satnav is......another excuse not to use your brain........I refuse to become a robot! Or maybe I am one and Im rebelling! [lol]

Kingetter
12-Aug-06, 17:42
It may be a chip on your shoulder.:)
Not a chip off the old block then?

Dreadnought
12-Aug-06, 17:44
This is getting tedious........ another thing to add the encyclopaedia-sized list of things that sjwahwah doesn't by her own admission understand, use or know anything about! Wow.....

sj, there are so many things you say you know nothing of (like technology) and yet you have all this expertise in tiny microchips capable of being injected by a GP, selection of brainwashed thugs for Special Forces duty, RF emissions from power lines, wind turbines, cognitive dysfunction, use of TV for suborning the nation's young..........

Extraordinary. Are you perhaps multiple personalities? :lol:

So you don't think lowest common denominator TV, interspersed with soundbite news, combined with newspapers that only report from their owners political viewpoint, you don't think that's suborning the nation's young? When more people vote in Big Brother, Pop Idol, and X Factor than voted in the general election, then there is something very, very wrong with ths country.

sjwahwah
12-Aug-06, 17:48
a Luddite is a "nice" label humans tag other humans with when that human dislikes electric tin openers and Xboxes.

-my definition

or from wiki...

A luddite is someone who opposes technical or technological change.

Any of a group of British workers who between 1811 and 1816 rioted and destroyed laboursaving textile machinery in the belief that such machinery would diminish employment.

[lol]

sjwahwah
12-Aug-06, 17:50
So you don't think lowest common denominator TV, interspersed with soundbite news, combined with newspapers that only report from their owners political viewpoint, you don't think that's suborning the nation's young? When more people vote in Big Brother, Pop Idol, and X Factor than voted in the general election, then there is something very, very wrong with ths country.
bang on the money honey!

phoenix
12-Aug-06, 17:58
a Luddite is a "nice" label humans tag other humans with when that human dislikes electric tin openers and Xboxes.

-my definition

or from wiki...

A luddite is someone who opposes technical or technological change.

Any of a group of British workers who between 1811 and 1816 rioted and destroyed laboursaving textile machinery in the belief that such machinery would diminish employment.

[lol]

I like that ..........so Im a Luddite we could start up a New Religion called Ludditism! [lol]

sjwahwah
12-Aug-06, 18:17
I like that ..........so Im a Luddite we could start up a New Religion called Ludditism! [lol]

no....please no... no more religions... ssshhh... no more religions.. another religion another war..[para]

Dreadnought
12-Aug-06, 18:18
No problem, the Amish already have that covered.

sjwahwah
12-Aug-06, 18:19
actually I think the Amish like new technology.. as long as it's hand cranked!:lol:

phoenix
12-Aug-06, 18:25
no....please no... no more religions... ssshhh... no more religions.. another religion another war..[para]

No worries sj, I cant stand labels and isms anyway! :Razz

Naefearjustbeer
12-Aug-06, 18:43
SAt Nav does not track you. It only receives signals it does not send any info out to anyone. You can buy a tracker that sends out info to trace things such as stolen cars but that is not sat nav. Even though it uses the satellites in the sky to pinpoint locations.

j4bberw0ck
12-Aug-06, 18:52
So you don't think lowest common denominator TV, interspersed with soundbite news, combined with newspapers that only report from their owners political viewpoint, you don't think that's suborning the nation's young? When more people vote in Big Brother, Pop Idol, and X Factor than voted in the general election, then there is something very, very wrong with ths country.
Dreadnought, I agree with you on those points. The state of TV is a national disgrace. I would add to that the state of national education, the state of national governance and the politicians who govern us, the state of national newspapers and a list of several other things. Stupidity is cool, consideration for others is sad, and people with a few more smarts than the average are despised as geeks and freaks. We worship "celebrities" who have less intelligence very often than god gave a cockroach. People seeming to queue up to be publicly humiliated on TV programmes. Big Brother and Little Britain say it all, really. We are plumbing the depths, big time. Opium for the masses...... it's the new religion, after all. (Add to the list the Daily Record, the Sun and the Mirror, too).

What I was thinking in responding as above is the idea that TV seems to have been selected by government for the delivery of subliminal messages and the like, which is what I understood sjwahwah to be talking about. Frankly, I don't think the government is clever enough to run a single strategy to influence people to produce mind-numbing garbage for broadcast, in the confident expectation that they understand exactly how it will affect the population longer term.

And do you know something? Despite being British, and disagreeing vehemently with much of what's going on around me in my country, I feel absolutely no urge whatever to go bomb something.

phoenix
12-Aug-06, 19:01
SAt Nav does not track you. It only receives signals it does not send any info out to anyone. You can buy a tracker that sends out info to trace things such as stolen cars but that is not sat nav. Even though it uses the satellites in the sky to pinpoint locations.

And what about all the Satellites up there beaming allsorts down on the planet........imagine if the skies were clear with nothing there except pure clear clean energy........Bliss! :Razz

Gleber2
12-Aug-06, 19:29
Ah for the good old days. No computers and telly and when things weren't right you could have a pogrom or burn a witch or something. Ah it must have been good in those days.:eek:

sjwahwah
12-Aug-06, 19:31
This is getting tedious........ another thing to add the encyclopaedia-sized list of things that sjwahwah doesn't by her own admission understand, use or know anything about! Wow.....

sj, there are so many things you say you know nothing of (like technology) and yet you have all this expertise in tiny microchips capable of being injected by a GP, selection of brainwashed thugs for Special Forces duty, RF emissions from power lines, wind turbines, cognitive dysfunction, use of TV for suborning the nation's young..........

Extraordinary. Are you perhaps multiple personalities? :lol:
I only know what I've been told.... as do you. Some people are just told different things... just happens that way sometimes. I didn't call anybody a thug... I said that certain groups of people are more malleable than others. what are RF emissions? and where did I say cognitive disfunction? and where did I say use of TV for suborning the nation's young......?

sjwahwah
12-Aug-06, 19:34
Dreadnought, I agree with you on those points. The state of TV is a national disgrace. I would add to that the state of national education, the state of national governance and the politicians who govern us, the state of national newspapers and a list of several other things. Stupidity is cool, consideration for others is sad, and people with a few more smarts than the average are despised as geeks and freaks. We worship "celebrities" who have less intelligence very often than god gave a cockroach. People seeming to queue up to be publicly humiliated on TV programmes. Big Brother and Little Britain say it all, really. We are plumbing the depths, big time. Opium for the masses...... it's the new religion, after all. (Add to the list the Daily Record, the Sun and the Mirror, too).

What I was thinking in responding as above is the idea that TV seems to have been selected by government for the delivery of subliminal messages and the like, which is what I understood sjwahwah to be talking about. Frankly, I don't think the government is clever enough to run a single strategy to influence people to produce mind-numbing garbage for broadcast, in the confident expectation that they understand exactly how it will affect the population longer term.

And do you know something? Despite being British, and disagreeing vehemently with much of what's going on around me in my country, I feel absolutely no urge whatever to go bomb something.

You understand me correctly... but, it MUST be easy if that many millions actually find Big Brother interesting? how much easier could it get I wonder?

phoenix
12-Aug-06, 19:36
Ah for the good old days. No computers and telly and when things weren't right you could have a pogrom or burn a witch or something. Ah it must have been good in those days.:eek:
Whats a pogrom Gleber2?

Ive googled it......I now know! :}

sjwahwah
12-Aug-06, 19:38
And what about all the Satellites up there beaming allsorts down on the planet........imagine if the skies were clear with nothing there except pure clear clean energy........Bliss! :Razz

pure... clean..... can't have that![lol]

Blazing Sporrans
12-Aug-06, 19:49
I only know what I've been told.... as do you. Some people are just told different things... just happens that way sometimes. I didn't call anybody a thug... I said that certain groups of people are more malleable than others. what are RF emissions? and where did I say cognitive disfunction? and where did I say use of TV for suborning the nation's young......?
Therein lies the old conundrum though - you say you only know what you've been told sj, however excuse my pedantry by differentiating that into you believing what you've been told by certain sources and knowing that which can be proven (or from learned experience - which even then is open to interpretation). I know that 2+2=4 and also that I am a human being. I believe that much of what you say comes from dubious sources or the flawed way in which an individual chooses to interpret information... :roll:

sjwahwah
12-Aug-06, 19:52
I'm glad you do know everything about everything so you can keep the peons like me in line. Thanks again.

Blazing Sporrans
12-Aug-06, 19:58
Nope - never proclaimed to know everything - even I'M not that conceited. :cool: Though I'm pretty fair at pub quizzes it has to be said!
However every day is a schoolday and a day when something knew isn't learned is a day wasted IMHO...

sjwahwah
12-Aug-06, 20:02
my.... people take things far too seriously around here.

phoenix
12-Aug-06, 20:08
pure... clean..... can't have that![lol]

Why not? :Razz

Blazing Sporrans
12-Aug-06, 21:19
my.... people take things far too seriously around here.
Too right.... better being laid back and not getting hot under the collar about things :eek:

katarina
13-Aug-06, 11:05
well I think an identity card is a good idea. I for one have nothing to hide. Storing DNA of EVERYONE especially criminals, would also be a good idea to combat crime. Or should that be another thread?:confused

Dreadnought
13-Aug-06, 11:13
SAt Nav does not track you. It only receives signals it does not send any info out to anyone. You can buy a tracker that sends out info to trace things such as stolen cars but that is not sat nav. Even though it uses the satellites in the sky to pinpoint locations.

Read this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4610755.stm).

Dreadnought
13-Aug-06, 11:16
well I think an identity card is a good idea. I for one have nothing to hide. Storing DNA of EVERYONE especially criminals, would also be a good idea to combat crime. Or should that be another thread?:confused
Why not save money on all that expensive technology and just tattoo numbers or barcodes on everyone's forearms?

golach
13-Aug-06, 11:22
Therein lies the old conundrum though - you say you only know what you've been told sj, however excuse my pedantry by differentiating that into you believing what you've been told by certain sources and knowing that which can be proven (or from learned experience - which even then is open to interpretation). I know that 2+2=4 and also that I am a human being. I believe that much of what you say comes from dubious sources or the flawed way in which an individual chooses to interpret information... :roll:
I am with you all the way Sporrans

JAWS
13-Aug-06, 13:46
my.... people take things far too seriously around here.Oh dear, dear, dear. I daren't say anything on that one.
I must bear that comment in mind for future reference, that was the best one yet!

DrSzin
13-Aug-06, 14:18
Read this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4610755.stm).Naefearjustbeer is correct. The system linked to would work in much the same way as Sat Nav or a standard car-tracking system. The article says:

Every vehicle would have a black box to allow a satellite system to track their journey, with prices starting from as little as 2p per mile in rural areas.

The satellite system wouldn't track the journey per se. The black box would use standard timing-signal transmissions from the satellite system to track the journey, and it would store the info itself. No signals would be sent to the satellites (that would be prohibitively expensive and there's no need anyway), and the satellites wouldn't take photos of the car's journey! The info stored in the black box could be read in a variety of ways, eg direct (wired) or wireless connection to a charging system's computer, or by transmitting it over (say) a G3 "phone" network.

Having said all that, the end result is the same - the detailed workings of the tracking system are surely irrelevant.

Kingetter
13-Aug-06, 14:21
well I think an identity card is a good idea. I for one have nothing to hide. Storing DNA of EVERYONE especially criminals, would also be a good idea to combat crime. Or should that be another thread?:confused

Actually, you're right in certainly 2 senses. Good for Medical Reasons and also Genealogists might find it handy.

Dreadnought
13-Aug-06, 14:21
Naefearjustbeer is correct. The system linked to would work in much the same way as Sat Nav or a standard car-tracking system. The article says:

Every vehicle would have a black box to allow a satellite system to track their journey, with prices starting from as little as 2p per mile in rural areas.

The satellite system wouldn't track the journey per se. The black box would use standard timing-signal transmissions from the satellite system to track the journey, and it would store the info itself. No signals would be sent to the satellites (that would be prohibitively expensive and there's no need anyway). The info stored in the black box could be read in a variety of ways, eg direct (wired) or wireless connection to a charging system's computer, or by transmitting it over (say) a G3 "phone" network.

Having said all that, the end result is the same - the detailed workings of the tracking system are surely irrelevant.


The fact remains that the government will be tracking your every move in your car.

DrSzin
13-Aug-06, 14:30
The fact remains that the government will be tracking your every move in your car.As I said, the end result is the same. Well, the information would likely be available to "government" resources on request, but I'm not interested in splitting semantic hairs.

Dreadnought
13-Aug-06, 14:32
As I said, the end result is the same. Well, the information would likely be available to "government" resources on request, but I'm not interested in splitting semantic hairs.

The sole purpose of implementing the system is to charge people for their road usage, on top of road tax. The government WILL be tracking your every move.

brandy
13-Aug-06, 14:32
whew have tried to read all the posts but i lost the battle! *G*
but honestly. id cards dont bother me.. again with the common sence card.. its just makes sence to carry id on you.. that and clean underware! *laughs*
seriously though.. say you were in an accident.. it is the best way to id you.. if you have some form of picture id on you.
and at least your loved ones would be notified sooner rather than later.
also there are cases of mistaken identity.. what if they thouht you were someone else.. someone you did not want to be!
all you had to do was prove that you are who you are..
you go into a pub want to buy a drink.. and you dont look old enough.. well enough heres my id.. no problem
im not saying that people need to know your life histories or everydetail of everything
just the basics..
name age and address would do for everything..
oh also would be handy if you have an illness.. ie diabetic.. heart condition..
so if you need help.. they know what to look for and what not to give you..
simple things nothing that is a state secret..
but thats just my opinion.. *grins*

brandy
13-Aug-06, 15:54
ok heres one for you .. just talking to my mum.. my dad was in his own front yard yesterday.. and a cop drove by turned around and stopped him asking him for id..
she said the she was just making sure.. to be safe in case of break ins or something.
now this is in broad daylight in their front garden!!
luckily he had his wallet with his id in his pocket
cause they will take you to jail until they find ou who you are

obiron
13-Aug-06, 16:14
ok heres one for you .. just talking to my mum.. my dad was in his own front yard yesterday.. and a cop drove by turned around and stopped him asking him for id..
she said the she was just making sure.. to be safe in case of break ins or something.
now this is in broad daylight in their front garden!!
luckily he had his wallet with his id in his pocket
cause they will take you to jail until they find ou who you are

good job your dad had his wallet on him.

sjwahwah
13-Aug-06, 16:51
This is getting tedious........ another thing to add the encyclopaedia-sized list of things that sjwahwah doesn't by her own admission understand, use or know anything about! Wow.....

sj, there are so many things you say you know nothing of (like technology) and yet you have all this expertise in tiny microchips capable of being injected by a GP, selection of brainwashed thugs for Special Forces duty, RF emissions from power lines, wind turbines, cognitive dysfunction, use of TV for suborning the nation's young..........

Extraordinary. Are you perhaps multiple personalities? :lol:

I'd like to hear from yourself what SAT NAV is for then?

wiki says...

Satellite navigation systems allow small electronic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronics) devices to determine their location (Longitude (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longitude), Latitude (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latitude), and Altitude (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altitude)) in within a few metres (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metre) using time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signal) signals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_%28telecommunication%29) transmitted along a line of sight (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_of_sight) by radio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio) from satellites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite). Receivers on the ground with a fixed position can also be used to calculate the precise time as a reference for scientific experiments. The Global Positioning System (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System) is the only fully functional satellite navigation system as of 2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As_of_2006).

gleeber
13-Aug-06, 17:49
I dont get het up about id cards. If it happens it happens.
Whatever it is that irks sjwahwah and the others, seems genuine enough. I'm not convinced that their argument stands close scrutiny though.
I understand the freedom stuff and all that, but what about the baddies? Is it only America who has to change, or, if America decides to be the nice guy from now on, do you think the world will be any safer from a few maniacs who want the world to be their way? It doesnt take many nutters to destabalise the world as recent events have shown.
It really is very serious out there, and although I understand your concerns about our foreign policy, my fears are for the nutters.
Its them I blame for all this crap.
Terrorists/freedom fighters, cause destruction amongst societies, only to get their own way. The only way is through debate and America is into debate.
Because of inbuilt hatreds things wont change overnight. The truth is they are both as bad as one another, but, at the end of the day I know where my loyalties lie.

sjwahwah
13-Aug-06, 18:29
I understand the freedom stuff and all that
freedom stuff and all that? theres where the problem lies.... everyday freedoms you have that you take completely for granted.

those that do take these freedoms for granted and are willing to trade security for freedom ARE the baddies in my book.

Blazing Sporrans
13-Aug-06, 18:59
ok heres one for you .. just talking to my mum.. my dad was in his own front yard yesterday.. and a cop drove by turned around and stopped him asking him for id..
she said the she was just making sure.. to be safe in case of break ins or something.
now this is in broad daylight in their front garden!!
luckily he had his wallet with his id in his pocket
cause they will take you to jail until they find ou who you are
Sounds like a young and terribly overenthusiastic cop to me, who was overstepping any powers which she possessed. What on earth do you or anyone else imagine was going to happen if your dad didn't produce ID? This isn't a police state (despite what some on here might want you to think) and anyone wanting to "take you to jail" has to have a legal premise for arrest or even the detention of a suspect under the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995. Anyone who tells you or wishes you to think any different is either lying to you, scaremongering or downright ignorant.

golach
13-Aug-06, 19:14
I dont get het up about id cards. If it happens it happens.
Whatever it is that irks sjwahwah and the others, seems genuine enough. I'm not convinced that their argument stands close scrutiny though.
I understand the freedom stuff and all that, but what about the baddies? Is it only America who has to change, or, if America decides to be the nice guy from now on, do you think the world will be any safer from a few maniacs who want the world to be their way? It doesnt take many nutters to destabalise the world as recent events have shown.
It really is very serious out there, and although I understand your concerns about our foreign policy, my fears are for the nutters.
Its them I blame for all this crap.
Terrorists/freedom fighters, cause destruction amongst societies, only to get their own way. The only way is through debate and America is into debate.
Because of inbuilt hatreds things wont change overnight. The truth is they are both as bad as one another, but, at the end of the day I know where my loyalties lie.
Again you are the one that can put into words what uneducated nerds of my ilk cannot. Its the Terrorists that are the baddies here, not our respective governments, the terrorists have taken our freedom away, not Tony Blair, he is a politician not a magician who can at the wave of a wand right all wrongs.
If we let the nutters rule, as some in here would like, the lovers of Hezbullah and the anti Israeli gang, to name a few. We will not be able to leave our houses never mind leave our shores.

Dreadnought
13-Aug-06, 19:23
Again you are the one that can put into words what uneducated nerds of my ilk cannot. Its the Terrorists that are the baddies here, not our respective governments, the terrorists have taken our freedom away, not Tony Blair, he is a politician not a magician who can at the wave of a wand right all wrongs.
If we let the nutters rule, as some in here would like, the lovers of Hezbullah and the anti Israeli gang, to name a few. We will not be able to leave our houses never mind leave our shores.

The end result of making you safe and secure is to confine you to your home 'for your own safety'. If you are happy with a compulsory ID Card, and compulsory DNA sampling, then a 6.00pm to 6.00am curfew should be ok too, that'll guarantee you are safe because terrorists won't be able to move about the country.

The 'nutters' will carry on as they always have, with fake ID, only you will be ristricted now as well as them.

Who was it said "he who trades freedom for security deserves neither"?

canuck
13-Aug-06, 19:26
Sounds like a young and terribly overenthusiastic cop to me, who was overstepping any powers which she possessed. What on earth do you or anyone else imagine was going to happen if your dad didn't produce ID? This isn't a police state (despite what some on here might want you to think) and anyone wanting to "take you to jail" has to have a legal premise for arrest or even the detention of a suspect under the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995. Anyone who tells you or wishes you to think any different is either lying to you, scaremongering or downright ignorant.


The greatest need in such a system is a huge dollop of common sense. I am not commenting on Scottish law particularly, just 21st century western society in general.

Years ago I was on an expedition with my two young children to the museum in Toronto. A woman approached me and accused me of stealing her kids. I sent them off running, another woman saw the whole thing and alerted a security guard. Once I had the children with me again I started rummaging for ID. I was getting a little panicky about how I would prove who I was. Finally the guard said, "I could just ask the children who their mother is." Well that made sense. So, in this day and age of needing to prove who we are, there are ways other than the photo ID we all carry everywhere.

golach
13-Aug-06, 19:29
[quote=Dreadnought] then a 6.00pm to 6.00am curfew should be ok too, that'll guarantee you are safe because terrorists won't be able to move about the country.quote]
What are you on about? Who mentioned curfews?

Dreadnought
13-Aug-06, 19:42
[quote=Dreadnought] then a 6.00pm to 6.00am curfew should be ok too, that'll guarantee you are safe because terrorists won't be able to move about the country.quote]
What are you on about? Who mentioned curfews?

Well you're happyto be categorised, numbered, have your every move tracked by satellite. As terrorists move around at night it only follows that a night-time curfew on everyone 'in the interests of your safety' is the next move. You should be very happy with that. It guarantees the 'nutters' cannot set their bombs at night.

golach
13-Aug-06, 19:45
[quote=golach]

As terrorists move around at night it only follows that a night-time curfew on everyone 'in the interests of your safety' is the next move. .

The terrorists move at night??????? Where and what gave you that idea, the 7th of July Bombers struck at approx 9am

Dreadnought
13-Aug-06, 19:49
[quote=Dreadnought]

The terrorists move at night??????? Where and what gave you that idea, the 7th of July Bombers struck at approx 9am

Ah, but they started out very early in the AM to get there. If there had been a curfew the would not have got there.
On the underground, so by your logic we should stop anyone using the underground. Or maybe ban rucksacks.

changilass
13-Aug-06, 20:26
And if the moon was made of cheese we just have to ensure only the terrorists are about, guide the sun towards the moon and the resulting melt would catch all the baddies.

And before anyone accuses me of taking things too far......... read some of the previous posts, makes mine sound positively sensible lol

Moira
13-Aug-06, 23:30
Sounds like a young and terribly overenthusiastic cop to me, who was overstepping any powers which she possessed. What on earth do you or anyone else imagine was going to happen if your dad didn't produce ID? This isn't a police state (despite what some on here might want you to think) and anyone wanting to "take you to jail" has to have a legal premise for arrest or even the detention of a suspect under the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995. Anyone who tells you or wishes you to think any different is either lying to you, scaremongering or downright ignorant.

Blazing Sporrans - Brandy is from the States, living here in Caithness. Her telephone conversation with her Mum (presumably in the States) about what happened to her Dad, is scary.

I would hate to think that this could happen here (in Scotland). I don't have a problem with a national ID card system, unless, of course, I could be made to feel an intruder in my own back (or front) yard. Maybe this is where we are heading - I hope not.

j4bberw0ck
14-Aug-06, 08:47
[quote=golach]

Well you're happyto be categorised, numbered, have your every move tracked by satellite. As terrorists move around at night it only follows that a night-time curfew on everyone 'in the interests of your safety' is the next move. You should be very happy with that. It guarantees the 'nutters' cannot set their bombs at night.
Look, I don't want to nitpick here, but I'm going to anyway. Dreadnought, you're doing what journalists do to catch people's attention - you're slightly mis-stating the truth to make it sound more exciting. You movements are not tracked by satellite. Your movements may be tracked by a small black box in your car. I understand that the result is the same, but let's get it right.

It's important because whenever governments put in a system to track / monitor / charge, the whole of human ingenuity is diverted into getting round it. Examples:

1. Governments charge tax on income. As tax rates go higher people resort to more and more elaborate ways of disguising their income or avoiding tax. "Is it cash?" is just the start.

2. Government sets limits on "duty free" goods or goods bought in an area of lower tax rates. Before you know it you have a sub-industry of people bring in alcohol and tobacco for resale.

3. Government introduces speed cameras. Result: an immediate market in camera detectors (legal or otherwise), laser jammers, RF* jammers and simple Bowden cable devices which allow a motorcyclist to "flip" his rear numberplate up so it can't be photographed. Also sprays which allegedly mask your numberplate from the camera, fresnel lens numberplates - there is no limit to human ingenuity.

*sjwahwah - RF is Radio Frequency and is a grab-bag term for radiation transmitted by any device. Mods - I'm not word-masking!

4. <edit> - hehehehe.... beautiful example of ingenuity, just found >>>here<<< (http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?t=12972)

The government can't even make tagging of offenders work properly. How they'd make tracking the movements of 25 million vehicles from minute to minute work is beyond me.

Follow the logic above. Government decrees you'll pay by the mile and it's now compulsory to fit a black box to track movement. If black boxes go faulty at the rate of say 0.5%, then at any one time there'll be 125,000 faulty black boxes needing replacement. During that time they don't know whether you're using the car or not; there'd be a revolution if the box was also an immobiliser......

How long would it take, do you think, before instructions for sabotaging your black box appeared on the 'net? Before a sub-industry sprang up selling other black boxes that jam / fry / interfere with the government black box? I'd give it about 3 minutes........... the alternative would be to set up roadside cameras with a radio installed. As you drive past, the radio link interrogates the black box and if it gets no reply or a faulty checksum, it photos you. Cost? Huge. Weaknesses? Lots. Speed cameras have been bombed, burned, rammed, spraypainted.... and what's happened? Many have been removed because of the public's reaction. They turned ordinary law-abiding people into vandals. Big Brother cameras are a step too far, I think.

j4bberw0ck
14-Aug-06, 09:23
I'm opposed to them and here's why:

1. Practical reasons:

1.1 The government (whatever political hue they may be) has shown time and time again it cannot deliver IT projects, defence projects, NHS projects, Passport Office projects. They overrun wildly on cost (by factors of several hundred percent, usually), overrun wildly on timescale (by years), and when the half-baked "solution" is delivered, it doesn't do what they wanted anyway, or it's obsolete. The last guesstimate I saw for the cost of launching ID cards was £15 billion.......... it's as good as any other number and is almost certainly the right order of magnitude.

1.2 The government has no idea how many people there are in this country. Short of having RFIDs (the little radio tags which set of shoplifting alarms in shops) in the card, and a complete network of interrogation units to detect cards as you walk up and down the street, if you don't have one, no one will know. Ergo, they cannot and will not help control terrorism, criminals or anything else - except of course law-abiding folks who think that having nothing to hide is a good reason for having ID cards.

1.3 The legal system will tie the whole project up with cases of people being prosecuted, or appealing, or sueing for human rights abuses. Little old men and little old women being fined for forgetting their card...... wonderful, and grist to the media's mill.

1.4 The whole system revolves around a database and a chip in the card. The government want biometric data recorded and a bunch of other stuff. It also relies on being able to link the database to other databases - (DVLA, Immigration, maybe Police, medical and so on). Can you imagine a juicier, more tempting target for the world's hackers? With the information in that database, identity fraud would move from relatively rare to an everyday occurrence and armed with a false ID it would be undetectable!. Once that happens, the system falls down because no one can prove a thing legally about whether it was you or whether your ID had been hijacked. The government, of course, say it'll be secure. Yeah, right.......... millions spent of state of the art encryption, defeated when some hapless half-wit Civil Servant writes his/her password on a Post It, or loses his/her encrypted ID card. Or is bribed......., or has their laptop stolen from their car - it would only need to happen once. Hackers specialise in cracking computer systems and the best are highly motivated and highly intelligent. They'd crack this one too because data security is a reactive game. And the result would be pure, absolute chaos.

1.5 ID cards don't work. Photos on credit cards and debit cards don't work. RBoS carried out a trial years ago when they wanted to have every cardholder's mugshot on their plastics "for security" - "it'll stamp out fraud". Yeah, right.... a run of cards was produced with the head and shoulders photo of a baboon. They used them in shops. Not one was stopped. The minute you have an ID card then common sense will fly out the window, because the game becomes "has Mr X got an ID card?" not "is Mr X who he says he is?" Again, you see that working every time you use your Chip'n'Pin plastic card. Have you got a PIN that works? Yes - oh, that's OK then. When did you last see a shop assistant check the name on the card to see if the gender's right, for instance? (I know, some cards don't have gender info).

1.6 Our old friend the free market again. God bless capitalism! It'll be seconds before the 'net is full of forged ID cards or someone discovers a way to read the chip, or alter its data. Legal defences against court cases for not producing your card on demand. It'll all be in the public domain and chaos will reign.

2. Philosophical reasons

2.1 Governments are supposed to serve the people and they seem to have forgotten that fact.

Sorry it's a long post but it's a big subject.

squidge
14-Aug-06, 10:30
Having been a civil servant for the best part of twenty years I have seen several new "state of the art" computer systems introduced. I have yet seen one that was not a complete and utter farce. I havent seen one that actually did what it said it did, that was introduced on time, that didnt need a million updates because they fixed one bit and messed up another bit then needed to fix that and messed up another bit. The ID system will be the same.

Pesonally i feel that i should be allowed to move around the country and please myself and unless the police suspect that i have committed a crime they should leave me alone. The idea that i can be stopped on the street simply to show my ID card or check that i have one is one that i dont care for at all. I think the freedom to just be me and live a law abiding life without interference in my day to day business is important to me and thats not cos i am a drug dealing illegal immigrant who fences stolen goods on the side.

Finally I think the idea that it will prevent or help control crime or immigration is a nonsensical one for all the reasons that the others have already stated. I truly think that the ID card scheme is the government's way of making us think they are doing something to deal with issues that worry us -immigration and crime for example - when actually what they are suggesting does nothing at all to address the issues. Its a smokescreen to fool us thats all