View Full Version : The New Caithness Clearances
rob murray
01-Dec-10, 15:20
Front page of the Courier today, big article on intended closure of local tax office. Local union rep Alan Tait was quoted as seeing life outside Dounreay being hard pressed outwith the de commissioning run down, Alan suggests that the way things are going we could well see a modern clearance. I feel he has raised a very pertinent point, the past 10 years for example has seen the Girnigoe Street Government complex in Wick lose over 40 jobs ( national insurance office shut and DHSS merged with ES )
not withstanding local authority centralisation seeing LA jobs go.
Caithness has to have a mixed economy, the private sector is to small to absorb public sector lay offs, and perversly as Dounreay jobs / public sector jobs go, the private sector will become smaller.( not enough money to go round )
Nowadays, through using ICT, "knowledge based work" ( tax processing, benefits admin etc ) can be relocated anywhere and indeed the decision to centralise work in large back offices is always taken on political grounds. To quote Alan Tait lets avoid sleep walking into an economic disaster and widen the case to attract inward investment / back office work into Caithness, yes Dounreay is the major issue, but the economy is under threat outwith Dounreay. Ok the spin is that jobs will be created in newly emerging renewable energy sectors...but when, how many jobs will be created, what skill sets are required ? I think we need a major call to arms here....economic life outwith Dounreay is struggling, add Dounreayto the ocassion and what really is left ?
FYI...All Countries are going to have to tighten their 'belts'.
The Public Sector is awash and overweight with people. Something has to be done.
We had an Industrial Revolution/ perhaps the time has come for another change/ perhaps of a different kind.
People do not have to go to the 'office' to work anymore. With enhanced communication people can work from anywhere.
We have to change....if not we will all collapse!
rob murray
01-Dec-10, 16:50
FYI...All Countries are going to have to tighten their 'belts'.
The Public Sector is awash and overweight with people. Something has to be done.
We had an Industrial Revolution/ perhaps the time has come for another change/ perhaps of a different kind.
People do not have to go to the 'office' to work anymore. With enhanced communication people can work from anywhere.
We have to change....if not we will all collapse!
The post is about caithness not a country, yes people can work from home...some can go it alone, others need employers..enhanced ICT / communications means that knowledge work can be located anywhere...given the twin down ward spirals that face the county of caithness, why cant back office work be located here...for example did you know that most of Scotlands JCP payment processing is undertaken in Dundee, Vehicles in Wales ( Swansea ? ) Child benefit in Billingham etc etc....re read my post...as long as public services remain the decision re location is largley taken on political grounds.
The public sector is awash and over weight with people....local authorities maybe...but government services have always been under paid and understaffed
Lets get away from the Country then/ I live in a community/City where in the middle 2000's we were producing 1 million vehicles a year for General Motors.
Now we are down to approx 150,000. So we had to change.
Next...Our Provincial Tax Office had approx 1200 people here. We then went to a combined system with the Federal Tax and it was combine into the HST...Hormonized Tax (a fancy name for downsizing).
But guess what///we all tightened our belts and the Council was able to attract a University and other industry.
Not only is the Council responsible, we all are to ensure we make it work.....All I hear in Caithness is poor us!
I can assure you....you are not that poor....you have, a job seekers allowance, whatever that is, mobility cars ....several million of them, all sorts of child expenses and allowances and Welfare for life, and Council houses.
And pray tell me why, when Government Services are taken over by the Private Sector, they cut the jobs and provide a better service.
This is not a critizism....BUT....You do not see that too many places in the World....definitely not over here, where the benefits are so good.
We had a thread on this some time ago.. Methinks you cannot have it all!
The economy of Caithness is going to suffer witht he demise of Dounreay, no doubt about it.
And with government cuts it is likely there will be less public sector jobs too.
I agree Caithness needs a diverse economy, but I don't see where it's going to come from.
I also think we need to maintain the high levels of skilled jobs Dounreay provided for years rather than semi-skilled manufacturing or call centre jobs.
As for comparing the situation with the clearances, I think that's wide off the mark. People are not going to be forcibly ejected from Caithness, if they go it will be through need or choice.
The Caithness economy grew because of the arrival of Dounreay. It will shrink again due to it's loss. That's inevitable.
I agree with you T.
Dounreay and the UK skills teaching program are among the most sought after in the World.
I know someone who came here in the Nuke Industry and another in the general oil industry, and they are doing extremely well.
People with UK skills are very welcomed in this part of the World....I was one of them.
But we all have to buckle down/ change our ways......as a great man once said.....perhaps we should look at it as 'what can we do to help rather than looking at society and thinking....what can it do for us'!
I was just reading about how Ireland was able to become the silicone valley of Europe.....they have the lowest taxes of most Countries...Yes, they like many have overdone their spending, but they attracted companies from around the World. And did Caithness get Dounreay because no one else wanted it??? Read that also/ perhaps someone could clarify.
rob murray
01-Dec-10, 17:38
I agree with you T.
Dounreay and the UK skills teaching program are among the most sought after in the World.
I know someone who came here in the Nuke Industry and another in the general oil industry, and they are doing extremely well.
People with UK skills are very welcomed in this part of the World....I was one of them.
But we all have to buckle down/ change our ways......as a great man once said.....perhaps we should look at it as 'what can we do to help rather than looking at society and thinking....what can it do for us'!
I was just reading about how Ireland was able to become the silicone valley of Europe.....they have the lowest taxes of most Countries...Yes, they like many have overdone their spending, but they attracted companies from around the World. And did Caithness get Dounreay because no one else wanted it??? Read that also/ perhaps someone could clarify.
Clarification : It was a government decision
rob murray
01-Dec-10, 17:48
Lets get away from the Country then/ I live in a community/City where in the middle 2000's we were producing 1 million vehicles a year for General Motors.
Now we are down to approx 150,000. So we had to change.
Next...Our Provincial Tax Office had approx 1200 people here. We then went to a combined system with the Federal Tax and it was combine into the HST...Hormonized Tax (a fancy name for downsizing).
But guess what///we all tightened our belts and the Council was able to attract a University and other industry.
Not only is the Council responsible, we all are to ensure we make it work.....All I hear in Caithness is poor us!
I can assure you....you are not that poor....you have, a job seekers allowance, whatever that is, mobility cars ....several million of them, all sorts of child expenses and allowances and Welfare for life, and Council houses.
And pray tell me why, when Government Services are taken over by the Private Sector, they cut the jobs and provide a better service.
This is not a critizism....BUT....You do not see that too many places in the World....definitely not over here, where the benefits are so good.
We had a thread on this some time ago.. Methinks you cannot have it all!
Who is the "we" you refer to ? Did you all tighten your belts ? Im glad that you had a pro active council who actively attracted a university and other industries ( please confirm if this was a public sector "council" ) because that is what is required in Caithness, people need jobs !!! If you see a secure living wage as having it all, then come back here and see whats ( not ) happening..this was never ever the land of wine and roses...
"all you hear in Caithness is "poor us"...no you dont ,what you hear are the concerns of people for the future of their county..
rob murray
01-Dec-10, 17:52
The economy of Caithness is going to suffer witht he demise of Dounreay, no doubt about it.
And with government cuts it is likely there will be less public sector jobs too.
I agree Caithness needs a diverse economy, but I don't see where it's going to come from.
I also think we need to maintain the high levels of skilled jobs Dounreay provided for years rather than semi-skilled manufacturing or call centre jobs.
As for comparing the situation with the clearances, I think that's wide off the mark. People are not going to be forcibly ejected from Caithness, if they go it will be through need or choice.
The Caithness economy grew because of the arrival of Dounreay. It will shrink again due to it's loss. That's inevitable.
He used the clearances, I would imagine as a metaphor, actually the first clearances occurred in reay
"I also think we need to maintain the high levels of skilled jobs Dounreay provided for years rather than semi-skilled manufacturing or call centre jobs"
Yes totally agree but how many of these jobs were synonmous with Dounreay ie didnt exist within the county outwith Dounreay.
Yes totally agree but how many of these jobs were synonmous with Dounreay ie didnt exist within the county outwith Dounreay.
I think there's a bit of a mixture there.
Some jobs were of course Dounreay specific, but many were transferrable to other industries. Maintenance electricians are a good example. There's many people trained at Dounreay who now work offshore for example.
Dounreay has provided well paid, skilled jobs. It is these jobs I think we need to maintain and replace, not substitute for less skilled ones.
Who is the "we" you refer to ? Did you all tighten your belts ? Im glad that you had a pro active council who actively attracted a university and other industries ( please confirm if this was a public sector "council" ) because that is what is required in Caithness, people need jobs !!! If you see a secure living wage as having it all, then come back here and see whats ( not ) happening..this was never ever the land of wine and roses...
"all you hear in Caithness is "poor us"...no you dont ,what you hear are the concerns of people for the future of their county..
I really don't want to get into it as people tend to take some comments personally. Suffice to say, you have elected Officials who are supposed to do your bidding/ ensure they do that.
Yes, even in Canada belts are being tightened. We have so far fared well compared with other Countries....e.g. The United States...BUT again...A recent program on CNN(US) interviewed small business owners and invariably the problem was that the locals( people born and bred in the US) would not take specific jobs. That was left for immigrants/ thus the unemployment/ welfare applications were huge. And I am sure that if the Gov't is willing to give handouts then people will take them
One specific set of comments were interesting from a recent thread...Comment was....'well I can't move cause I can't get a Council House'....I moved and got a flat in London....yes 'twas tough!
Another comment was...'the pension is insufficient to live on'....Guess what...I paid into a private pension and now I am comfortable in retirement.
Perhaps people are too complacent....too well off. If you have Gov't/ Council Reps., they should be working for you ....exploring all the Avenues to get more jobs....And if one cannot get them, perhaps it is time to move.
Just a thought...How many 'non' North of Scotlanders are working there?
Same problem here.......We import Mexicans to do our menial work (picking vegetables/ apples etc), but we have 8% unemployment!! Something wrong I would say!
He used the clearances, I would imagine as a metaphor, actually the first clearances occurred in reay
"I also think we need to maintain the high levels of skilled jobs Dounreay provided for years rather than semi-skilled manufacturing or call centre jobs"
Yes totally agree but how many of these jobs were synonmous with Dounreay ie didnt exist within the county outwith Dounreay.
Over 2 U....Can you explain the highlighted part?
I notice that Norscot (http://www.Norscot.co.uk) are really busy even in this weather so still loads of new builds happening. This would appear to buck the trend in the rest of the UK, so Caithness must be doing something right.
Clearances is a bit emotive.
The area grew when there was in influx of people. Its shrinking now because there is an exodus. That's before the big wave of job losses begin at Dounreay.
All these regeneration committees full of bureaucrats and civil service people and the like won't create a single job, except to keep themselves busy for a while. It's businesses growing that will provide real jobs. That takes enterprise and innovation, and that's what we should be teaching the kids in school. But so many of them choose to leave the area it'll always be an uphill struggle.
It needs something dynamic, rather than relying on government largesse to turn the area around. Something that will stimulate new business growth. But I guess every area in the country is looking for the same thing right now.
I really don't want to get into it as people tend to take some comments personally. Suffice to say, you have elected Officials who are supposed to do your bidding/ ensure they do that.
Yes, even in Canada belts are being tightened. We have so far fared well compared with other Countries....e.g. The United States...BUT again...A recent program on CNN(US) interviewed small business owners and invariably the problem was that the locals( people born and bred in the US) would not take specific jobs. That was left for immigrants/ thus the unemployment/ welfare applications were huge. And I am sure that if the Gov't is willing to give handouts then people will take them
One specific set of comments were interesting from a recent thread...Comment was....'well I can't move cause I can't get a Council House'....I moved and got a flat in London....yes 'twas tough!
Another comment was...'the pension is insufficient to live on'....Guess what...I paid into a private pension and now I am comfortable in retirement.
Perhaps people are too complacent....too well off. If you have Gov't/ Council Reps., they should be working for you ....exploring all the Avenues to get more jobs....And if one cannot get them, perhaps it is time to move.
Just a thought...How many 'non' North of Scotlanders are working there?
Same problem here.......We import Mexicans to do our menial work (picking vegetables/ apples etc), but we have 8% unemployment!! Something wrong I would say!
Agree with a lot of what you are saying there and can apply some of it to both the local issue and nationally. However, the majority of those in question are not the workshy who expect everything for nothing but a skilled workbase including those who have relocated to the area and are keen to stay here. It would make sense to retain some sort of industry in Caithness to make use of that skill base. Best case scenario would be for the Conservatives to make good their support for nuclear energy and locate a new facility in an area where it is trusted and would be welcomed.
Agree with a lot of what you are saying there and can apply some of it to both the local issue and nationally. However, the majority of those in question are not the workshy who expect everything for nothing but a skilled workbase including those who have relocated to the area and are keen to stay here. It would make sense to retain some sort of industry in Caithness to make use of that skill base. Best case scenario would be for the Conservatives to make good their support for nuclear energy and locate a new facility in an area where it is trusted and would be welcomed.
The problem with that is that any nuclear new build would require the approval of the Scottish Government.
The SNP has already made it's position clear. Because of that, Scotland is now out of the equation for any new UK nuclear plants.
That said, it wouldn't make economic sense to put a commercial station up here, something which the subsidies for renewables can overcome.
It needs something dynamic, rather than relying on government largesse to turn the area around. Something that will stimulate new business growth. But I guess every area in the country is looking for the same thing right now.
That's a problem. The global and national economic crisis will draw funds away from areas that would have otherwise been earmarked for business support grants.
I was invited to a presentation at the battery factory in Thurso shortly after they started production. The manager giving the talk made it quite clear that Caithness was chosen because of the public funding available and the fact that their product was not difficult to transport or subject to delivery time constaints.
Was just listening to the BBC World News and saw that 'The Scots' have turned down anything to do with Nuke Power!
The analyst said words to the effect...they have been left out in the cold/ the future. Also mentioned was that renewables will not be successful/ perhaps some will pay for themselves in a small way, but will not create jobs, which seems to be what is required.
I am sure there will be the footings and the erection, but that is next to nothing in man hours. Sounds pretty grim.
And 'Hunter'.....I was just reading your post. Sounds right on track.
A footnote.....I don't think we have seen the worst of the Ecomomic Crisis yet. Everyone is putting on the rose coloured glasses, or as one person said tonite...When will the lying stop!
rob murray
02-Dec-10, 10:48
Over 2 U....Can you explain the highlighted part?
yes, the first documented northern clearances ie people being moved from a specific geographical area because of economic decisions taken by the landlord, occurred in Reay Caithness. These were "humane" clearances ie houses were not burned and torn down.
rob murray
02-Dec-10, 11:17
I think there's a bit of a mixture there.
Some jobs were of course Dounreay specific, but many were transferrable to other industries. Maintenance electricians are a good example. There's many people trained at Dounreay who now work offshore for example.
Dounreay has provided well paid, skilled jobs. It is these jobs I think we need to maintain and replace, not substitute for less skilled ones.
Agreed, many ex time served Dounreay guys now work off shore, intrument mechs, electricians and many mechanical engineers work in on shore oil related jobs. Many are transient workers who work away but have families and homes in Caithness contributing to the economy. Basic point is no Dounreay...and very little people in skilled trades moving on. Also the local economy / local business infrastructure will have a fraction of the demand for these skills. The closure of Dounreay will obviously have a massive impact on the local economy everyone knows this, but unlike RAF KInloss for example, we face a phased run down, not literrally an over night closure. We have time on our side here.
Yes there are success stories in caithness, but they dont have the capacity to mop up the Dounreay effect, we cant diversify into a service / retail led economy ( ie post industrial west of scotland ) as the population is too small, likewise the small business sector hasnt the capacity, and starting a business is an option but not everyone can do this. In economic terms placing a large manufacturing base in Caithness is marginal as transport costs ( transporting lumps of metal up the A9 making "widgets" and transporting them back down the A9 is very questionable in economic terms )
I guess what I am saying is that we need a planned approach to creating a mixed diversified economy on which the local SME sector can support and survive, something that we seem to hear a lot about but dont see any action. I started this thread to highlight that out side of the Dounreay scenario, a low wage economy is struggling ( the ROK scenario made the Groat under the same terms of reference ) and losing even 20 - 30 tax jobs is yet another burden.
Last point : whatever your political "brand" accept that politicians and the political process can influence directly / indirectly where jobs can go. Last August a very large UK IT company announced that they were opening up premises in Inverness, they recieved a location grant and £650,000 for creating 40 "local jobs". Point is they could have located anywhere..how about in the nice new empty buildings outside Wick ( certainly the on line support element of work ) Now how influential was Highlands and Islands Enterprise ( the Higlands economic developent agency ) in the decision making process...answer : the first they heard of the deal was when they read it in the P and J...( I heard it from the horses mouth )the entire decision was taken by an inward investment unit of Scottish Enterprise based in Glasgow !!! This is an absolute fact and why none of our so called elected officials didnt query the situation is a disgrace.
yes, the first documented northern clearances ie people being moved from a specific geographical area because of economic decisions taken by the landlord, occurred in Reay Caithness. These were "humane" clearances ie houses were not burned and torn down.
Do you mean when Dounreay came in??
rob murray
02-Dec-10, 15:20
Do you mean when Dounreay came in??
Dont know where you are comming from Sandy, what I meant was,within the context of what is known as the Highland clearances, the first documented case of a landlord "moving " people on, happened in Reay, Caithness in the 1790's
Dont know where you are comming from Sandy, what I meant was,within the context of what is known as the Highland clearances, the first documented case of a landlord "moving " people on, happened in Reay, Caithness in the 1790's
Was trying to understand what time frame you had/ didn't know you were referring to 'way back then'!
My Mother's family were some of those moved to Badbea in .....officially 1793..... but it had it's unrecorded inhabitants in 1770.....The Clearances in Caithness and Sutherland are very aptly described in.............. badbeafamilies.com.
I agree with what you are saying....I just think that people put too much hope in the Dounreay era, and that it would continue forever, and as always happens, good things change.
I feel that we are in a 'moment of change'. Perhaps Caithness and other parts of the UK more than most.
Methinks our standard of living has reached the climax, and now we have to find our way to the middle gound.
Just remember.... the pendulum swingith sometimes taking a long time to reach that middle....
Hi Sandy, I would say things are always changing, they do for me anyway, the most successful people I know, are habitulised to always look for 'the next thing'. :D
rob murray
02-Dec-10, 15:47
Was trying to understand what time frame you had/ didn't know you were referring to 'way back then'!
My Mother's family were some of those moved to Badbea in .....officially 1793..... but it had it's unrecorded inhabitants in 1770.....The Clearances in Caithness and Sutherland are very aptly described in.............. badbeafamilies.com.
I agree with what you are saying....I just think that people put too much hope in the Dounreay era, and that it would continue forever, and as always happens, good things change.
I feel that we are in a 'moment of change'. Perhaps Caithness and other parts of the UK more than most.
Methinks our standard of living has reached the climax, and now we have to find our way to the middle gound.
Just remember.... the pendulum swingith sometimes taking a long time to reach that middle....
I agree with you Sandy we are in a period of change, but we have advance notice here, time to rebuild. In the totality of time we are only looking at a period dating from the mid 50's to say 2025ish..seventy years..its not a lot of time..but within that time frame Dounreay was really the heart of the economy...what replaces it, when, who will make things happen, or do we just sleep walk into a disaster...or do people not care one way or another ! Thanks for the badbea link appreciated
As you say, you have time to change/adapt. On the other hand GM & Chrysler going bankrupt in a matter of months, threw North America into a complete turmoil. The Western World was not expecting that!. Smoke and Mirrors prior to, with huge manufacturing going on and them stashing the unsold cars in out of the way places to hide them.
You wonder sometimes how these people get away with such dishonesty, but then we have our politicians... Not all bad, in fact only a few, but look what it does for us.
I left as I had no interest, and I had other ideas on life. Many of you stayed and I congratulate those of you who are worried.
Perhaps it is just the way that life evolves....we had the whaling, the herring, the Nuke and the DOT COM....now what?
Perhaps the whole World is regrouping....
You are fortunate to have people like Bill Fernie, who methinks is no slouch when it comes to ideas.....yes Bill, even tho' you closed a thread of mine down!! Haha.
Hi Sandy, I would say things are always changing, they do for me anyway, the most successful people I know, are habitulised to always look for 'the next thing'. :D
Yes, I know what you mean....It's the challenge/the chase!
rob murray
02-Dec-10, 18:07
[quote=ducati;793535]Hi Sandy, I would say things are always changing, they do for me anyway, the most successful people I know, are habitulised to always look for 'the next thing'. :D[/quote
Ok but not everyone is "succesful", people in Caithness are looking for the next thing...which next thing is going to deliver the jobs and prospects within the county ??
Ok but not everyone is "succesful", people in Caithness are looking for the next thing...which next thing is going to deliver the jobs and prospects within the county ??[/quote]
Success is in our own minds, and what we are happy and contented with..perhap more important than looking successful!
When I was growing up, I thought certain people were successful/important. Wow....How far was that from the truth......lots of smoke and mirrors!
Interesting....
There have been 939 Views on this subject, yet only 28 posts by just a few of us...
There is a 'thing' called Brain Storming. The more ideas that people have, the better the conclusion and also this thread!
And who knows...maybe someone in authority will get an idea!
Whose game?
Interesting....
There have been 939 Views on this subject, yet only 28 posts by just a few of us...
There is a 'thing' called Brain Storming. The more ideas that people have, the better the conclusion and also this thread!
And who knows...maybe someone in authority will get an idea!
Whose game?
Whoosh. That one went straight over my head.
The number of views and/or posts on this thread is not going to solve the problems for Caithness or The World. I think the OP had a point. What's yours?
Whoosh. That one went straight over my head.
The number of views and/or posts on this thread is not going to solve the problems for Caithness or The World. I think the OP had a point. What's yours?
I take it OP means Original Post...Yes of course I agree with what was said.
Unfortunately I have no access to the article in question.
And if you feel you can do better, then please go ahead.
rob murray
03-Dec-10, 11:49
Sandy has a point,The New Caithness Clearances thread, raised the issue that out with the ongoing Dounreay decommissioning process, there seems to an ongoing drip feed loss of local jobs, the latest case being the potential loss of jobs in the tax office in Wick.
I attempted to see what people thought about this but the thread only received 28 posts from a handful of people. So in an attempt to seek wider thoughts I have re posted the thread under a new title, Saving Caithness as perhaps the original thread title confused people or maybe people are ok with the situation or maybe apathy / cyniscm runs deep...who knows
I am adding to this thread rather than your new one....Yes, cynicism among some people is alive and well....
PEOPLE POWER can work!
One of the things Caithness people are rather good at is producing food.
Why not introduce Caithness organic lamb for the foodies down South.
Why not get financing for a new distillery? Why not start a brewery? I know there was once a Caithness cheese factory but it was severely badly managed (so I hear).
And let's have those cursed sheep start paying their way. Could we have a woollen bonnet factory?
Smoked mackrell pate from the Pentland Firth?
What about a couple of new golf courses?
We could sell all these products by mail - like the LL Bean catalog in the States, or perhaps another example would be the Whole Earth Catalogue (anyone remember that?)
If you think this is Utopian who would ever have forecast the emergence of Caithness as a major presence on the surfing scene!
One of the things Caithness people are rather good at is producing food.
Why not introduce Caithness organic lamb for the foodies down South.
Why not get financing for a new distillery? Why not start a brewery? I know there was once a Caithness cheese factory but it was severely badly managed (so I hear).
And let's have those cursed sheep start paying their way. Could we have a woollen bonnet factory?
Smoked mackrell pate from the Pentland Firth?
What about a couple of new golf courses?
We could sell all these products by mail - like the LL Bean catalog in the States, or perhaps another example would be the Whole Earth Catalogue (anyone remember that?)
If you think this is Utopian who would ever have forecast the emergence of Caithness as a major presence on the surfing scene!
Well done Marketing man!
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