View Full Version : Air Travel Anti-Terror Measures A Waste Of Time And Money.
Dreadnought
12-Aug-06, 11:57
When it was found that the 9/11 hijackers used tiny modelling knives to hijack those planes, all small metal objects were banned from aircraft cabins: keys, razors, nail files etc.
Then a man tried to set off explosives hidden in his shoe, so passengers now have to remove their shoes before boarding.
Now it is alleged terrorists were planning to carry on liquid explosives, so all liquids, and all hand luggage are banned from being taken on aircraft.
What a complete waste of time and money. People can take their wallets: a credit card with a sharpened edge is as good as a modelling knife. For years drug smugglers have used people willing to swallow multiple packets stuffed with cocaine etc. What is to stop terrorists doing the same with chemicals, which when combined, will explode? It would be easy, a volunteer swallows several packets of volatile chemicals, waits for their stomach acid to disolve the packets until boom!
What then? Ban people from all flights?
With these latest restrictions the security services have done exactly what the terrorists wanted, and placed yet more restrictions on our freedoms. I realise there is no easy answer, but restricting people more and more will solve nothing.
I think it was an IRA terrorist who said, of their success at planting bombs, something along the lines of: 'It was easy, to be successful we only had to be lucky once, to prevent us you had to be lucky every time.'
pultneytooner
12-Aug-06, 12:03
What's the answer then?
i dissagree with u dreadnought, i say the more checks you do the more the terrorists will be wary to try to hijack or blow up planes.
As for the chemicals in your stomach i dont think that it is possible, i could be wrong, but if you can do that then why hasnt it been done already, there is no defense to that full stop.
Dreadnought
12-Aug-06, 12:30
i dissagree with u dreadnought, i say the more checks you do the more the terrorists will be wary to try to hijack or blow up planes.
As for the chemicals in your stomach i dont think that it is possible, i could be wrong, but if you can do that then why hasnt it been done already, there is no defense to that full stop.
More checks? So you would be happy to give up ALL your freedoms to prevent nothing more than a perceived threat? Because at the moment that is all the terrorist have to do. They don't even have to explode a bomb. All they have to do is suggest a threat and our own government and security forces then do the job for them by clamping down even harder on us. How long until you have to notify the police if you are going to travel more than fifty miles? How long until carrying an ID card is compulsory and not carrying it is an imprisonable offence? How long until you have to be fingerprinted for government anti-terror records so they know you are not on their wanted list?
The chemicals nin the stomach is entirely possible, it hasn't been done yet because the terror cells responsible are not that sophisticated, but give them time and it will happen. As I said, if drug smugglers can do it, so can terrorists.
They are responding to a threat.
Just as knives being banned from flights was a response to an actual attack.
Who is to say that the terrorists have not infiltrated the ground staff at major airports - look at the number of workers in the recent BA in-flight catering dispute - a vast majority of them were Asian and you even had whole families working there (I'm not implying that any of the workers involved in that dispute have terrorist links, merely pointing out the high level of ethnic employees at such places).
If the aircraft doors are firmly shut in the faces of terrorists by whatever means (more stringent checks/profiling/restricted cabin baggage) they will find another way in.
They have already tried the surface to air missile method. They'll just get better missiles. Plenty of people are willing to supply them.
I'm not sure about the stomach bomb - different people have different levels of digestive 'juices' so it could be a bit innaccurate for a 'showpiece' attack. A bomber 'going off' in the taxi on the way to the airport or sitting in the concourse because his flight has been delayed would still produce casualties but not to the degree they intended. Also actually testing such devices could exhaust their supply of bombers....
Dreadnought
12-Aug-06, 12:51
They are responding to a threat.
Just as knives being banned from flights was a response to an actual attack.
Who is to say that the terrorists have not infiltrated the ground staff at major airports - look at the number of workers in the recent BA in-flight catering dispute - a vast majority of them were Asian and you even had whole families working there (I'm not implying that any of the workers involved in that dispute have terrorist links, merely pointing out the high level of ethnic employees at such places).
So should we have kept tabs on every Irishman in Britain during the IRA terror attacks? 'Ethnic' does not mean colour.
I'm not sure about the stomach bomb - different people have different levels of digestive 'juices' so it could be a bit innaccurate for a 'showpiece' attack. A bomber 'going off' in the taxi on the way to the airport or sitting in the concourse because his flight has been delayed would still produce casualties but not to the degree they intended. Also actually testing such devices could exhaust their supply of bombers....
It only has to work once to yet again paralyse our travel industry, cost us hundreds of millions in lost tourism and to cost us a few more of our freedoms. In fact now it doesn't even have to work, it just has to be discovered that is what they plan to do, and thats it, everyone wishing to fly has to board in paper underpants and nothing else after being subjected to and X-ray and body cavity search.
Blazing Sporrans
12-Aug-06, 13:11
Right then - let's not bother having any security whatsoever and we'll watch the sky lit up like it's the 5th of November [disgust]
So should we have kept tabs on every Irishman in Britain during the IRA terror attacks?
Many were. Especially those with strong links to certain elements in NI....
'Ethnic' does not mean colour.
Sorry if my use of the word conflicts with yours:-
Ethnic:
"Of or relating to a sizable group of people sharing a common and distinctive racial, national, religious, linguistic, or cultural heritage.
Being a member of a particular ethnic group, especially belonging to a national group by heritage or culture but residing outside its national boundaries: ethnic Hungarians living in northern Serbia."
I have had enough of splitting hairs with some people on these boards....
pultneytooner
12-Aug-06, 13:18
The right to be let alone is indeed the beginning of all freedom.
William O. Douglas, U.S. Supreme Court Justice, 1939-1975
Every man should know that his conversations, correspondence,
and his personal life are private.
Lyndon B.Johnson, President of the United States, 1963-69
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
...it is poor civic hygiene to install technologies that
could someday facilitate a police state.
Secrets and Lies: Digital Security in a Networked World, 2000
There ought to be limits to freedom!
George W. Bush, Texas State House, May 21, 1999
Dreadnought
12-Aug-06, 13:42
Many were. Especially those with strong links to certain elements in NI....
Sorry if my use of the word conflicts with yours:-
Ethnic:
"Of or relating to a sizable group of people sharing a common and distinctive racial, national, religious, linguistic, or cultural heritage.
Being a member of a particular ethnic group, especially belonging to a national group by heritage or culture but residing outside its national boundaries: ethnic Hungarians living in northern Serbia."
I have had enough of splitting hairs with some people on these boards....
I should have been more clear. I found your assumption that being asian automatically makes people a terror threat slightly off.
Q. What do you call a black man at the controls of an aeroplane?
A. The pilot, what are you a racist?
I should have realised that my quantifying a portion of my post to try and deflect any accusations of being racist would in turn make me out to be a racist.
Seems like I can't win - so I will retire from this discussion before my words are twisted even more. Goodbye.
''What a complete waste of time and money.''
Sorry have to completely disagree with you here would your views of this waste of time and money be the same if your friends/family ahd been the victim of either previous attacks on planes or had the recent plans gone through and they had been on there???
More checks? So you would be happy to give up ALL your freedoms to prevent nothing more than a perceived threat? Because at the moment that is all the terrorist have to do. They don't even have to explode a bomb. All they have to do is suggest a threat and our own government and security forces then do the job for them by clamping down even harder on us. How long until you have to notify the police if you are going to travel more than fifty miles? How long until carrying an ID card is compulsory and not carrying it is an imprisonable offence? How long until you have to be fingerprinted for government anti-terror records so they know you are not on their wanted list?
The chemicals nin the stomach is entirely possible, it hasn't been done yet because the terror cells responsible are not that sophisticated, but give them time and it will happen. As I said, if drug smugglers can do it, so can terrorists.
What are you on about? Loss of what freedoms? I see no reason not to carry an ID card, I have most of my working life, and I am not ashamed to lodge my fingerprints or my DNA with the authorities, I do not see that as a loss of freedom if it stops the nutters from blowing up tube trains, buses or planes. Whats your problem with the authorities? Have you got something to hide?.
As for drug smugglers (stuffers and swallowers in the trade) there are more DOA smugglers found at Heathrow than you would think, so that method as a medium of carrying explosives I would not hold much faith in.
If you are wondering how I know about the failed smugglers at Heathrow...I worked for 33 years in HM Customs and Excise.
j4bberw0ck
12-Aug-06, 14:19
<quickly dismantles the still and packs it away> http://www.teddies.be/Forum/images/smiles/pfeif.gif
j4bberw0ck
12-Aug-06, 14:27
Having mentioned the ID card scheme I wonder whether that's another thread, or something to develop on in here?
Golach, we seem to have similar views on many things, but I have to say I profoundly disagree with the introduction of ID cards as the Government currently proposes on every level from the technical difficulties, to the costs, to the utility of the system, right down to the principles involved. It would be an interesting debate.
As this thread is about air travel security I'll maybe start a thread for this one. See you in there, I hope......... :)
Dreadnought
12-Aug-06, 14:28
What are you on about? Loss of what freedoms? I see no reason not to carry an ID card, I have most of my working life, and I am not ashamed to lodge my fingerprints or my DNA with the authorities, I do not see that as a loss of freedom if it stops the nutters from blowing up tube trains, buses or planes. Whats your problem with the authorities? Have you got something to hide?.
As for drug smugglers (stuffers and swallowers in the trade) there are more DOA smugglers found at Heathrow than you would think, so that method as a medium of carrying explosives I would not hold much faith in.
If you are wondering how I know about the failed smugglers at Heathrow...I worked for 33 years in HM Customs and Excise.
ID cards will not stop anything. Neither will anyone being fingerprinted or DNA profiling.
I have nothing to hide, but at the same time what makes you think you should have the right to pry into my life?
If you want to collaborate with the terrorists in restricting my freedom tha is your choice, but I will fight you as hard as I will fight them to keep my freedom.
dreadnought... totally agree with ya!
ID cards will not stop anything. Neither will anyone being fingerprinted or DNA profiling.
I have nothing to hide, but at the same time what makes you think you should have the right to pry into my life?
If you want to collaborate with the terrorists in restricting my freedom tha is your choice, but I will fight you as hard as I will fight them to keep my freedom.
I mean last time I went to America in June and July... my husband & I were interrogated down one side and up the other... eventhough I am probably "on the list" on both sides of the pond (1 person in 160 are on MI5's list) sheesh... I hold an American passport too, they can't deny me coming in.. then they tried to fingerprint my bairn after they frisked her..by some weirdo wedgehead in a uniform! I refused... they said "You must comply.... " she kicked off so hard by that time.. they didn't get nothing! and if they would have attempted I would have told them to put me on the next plane back here. I won't be getting on a plane anymore unless it's an absolute emergency.
I mean last time I went to America in June and July
How can you live with yourself - polluting the planet by going to America (the cause of all the world's woes) not once but twice within weeks.
I hope you planted some trees to offset your pollution - about 7.5 tonnes of CO2 for the trips.
If you weren't on a list, you will be now - the wedgeheaded wierdo will have made sure of that.....
i went once... was there in June and July. Dont' you worry about my CO2 pollution. And i've long been "on the list".. don't care... they're time wastin'
btw.... you're becoming quite the dangleberry.
btw.... you're becoming quite the dangleberry.
Well if you mean "dangleberry" as in -
(n) huckleberry of the eastern United States with pink flowers and sweet blue fruit
then fine, as I happen to love Blueberries.
But I suspect your meaning is less linked to wild fruit and more to a state of poor hygiene. In which case I find it insulting...
http://members.aol.com/rheghead/bored.jpg
me too![lol] would you prefer hemmoroid?
I'm just kidding.. I really love you!
Blazing Sporrans
12-Aug-06, 19:55
me too![lol] would you prefer hemmoroid?
I'm just kidding.. I really love you!
Too much time in America with US spellings methinks....
actually...upon coming to spell it... it didn't look right.. I looked it up. it's a good word.. one I don't use often... but, things could change. don't worry upon meeting me.. you'd never have a clue where I was from.
I have nothing to hide, but at the same time what makes you think you should have the right to pry into my life?
Dont get above your self dreadnought, Why???? would I even want to pry into YOUR life?
Blazing Sporrans
12-Aug-06, 20:59
actually...upon coming to spell it... it didn't look right.. I looked it up. it's a good word.. one I don't use often... but, things could change. don't worry upon meeting me.. you'd never have a clue where I was from.
As long as it's not one of those mid-Atlantic drawls favoured by Lulu then I'll be fine with it - being tolerant is the name of the game on here after all :lol: :lol:
Totally agree with dr evil on this one these poeple have to be stopped and if tighting sercurity is the answer when so be it there poeple are crazy and will stop at nothing to cause loss of life and I for one do not mind the extra checks if it means saying lifes.
Blazing Sporrans
12-Aug-06, 21:41
One simple thing some people seem to be overlooking here is that we have no inherent right to travel just because we have the pounds, shillings and pence to fund it. These companies are under no obligation to fly us around the globe any more than I have the right to go into a pub and demand alcohol. We are customers and have to abide by the rules or get out. If a company wants to preserve multi-million pounds worth of flying stock then they could insist on any counter-terrorist measures considered practical and practicable. I'll even wear different coloured socks if that helps - I as a customer am prepared for that. One thing's for certain - my proposed Bulgarian holiday would be a damn sight harder to enjoy without the flight!
Dreadnought
13-Aug-06, 00:42
Dont get above your self dreadnought, Why???? would I even want to pry into YOUR life?
Because you said:
Whats your problem with the authorities? Have you got something to hide?
I have nothing to hide, why do you ask? Or are you just naturally nosey?
I just object to Tony Blair and his control freak party poking their noses into every aspect of my life. Checking on my medical records, grave robber Brown poking his face into my bank accounts, telling me what I should eat and drink, what I should drive. A falling voter turnout which the government will do nothing about because if no-one votes then nothing will change and there is no challenge to their grip on Britain. Cameras on every street corner, every motorway bridge, restrictions on travel, a proposed compulsory ID card system, proposed black boxes in every privately owned vehicle for the purposes of allowing the government to track where those vehicles go, an increasingly nationalistic and islamophobic media whipping up fear and hysteria, and our government using those to pass ever more draconian laws which do not clamp down on terrorists only on us. Stalin would have LOVED New Labour, they have more control over us than he ever had over the Soviet people.
I have no problem with the 'authorities', what I do have a problem with is this country sleepwalking into a totalitarian state.
As for drug smugglers (stuffers and swallowers in the trade) there are more DOA smugglers found at Heathrow than you would think, so that method as a medium of carrying explosives I would not hold much faith in.
A terrorist with two compounds in his stomach, which when they come into contact with each other will explode violently, is hardly going to worry about turning up DOA, is he?
Blazing Sporrans
13-Aug-06, 01:24
I think it's marginally wrong to say Uncle Joe would have loved New Labour - he would have loved British politics as a whole...
As long as it's not one of those mid-Atlantic drawls favoured by Lulu then I'll be fine with it - being tolerant is the name of the game on here after all :lol:
not quite what i meant... but, yea... ok.[lol]
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