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Moonboots
10-Aug-06, 09:32
Looks like another try and its coming from Young British Asian Men!!!

This is a disgrace coming from the UK of all places.

6 planes were going to be involved from UK to America and were going to be blown up in midflight to make alot of destruction.

The bombs would have been of liquid form.

You would have been talking alot of deaths and injuries.

Thank goodness for our police force and Scotland Yard.
They arrested around 20 people so far but still looking for 2 more.

All flights have been cancelled to and from UK Airports.

Check out the latest on the TV.

Kingetter
10-Aug-06, 09:38
It was certainly for real -

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14278216/

golach
10-Aug-06, 09:49
Looks like another try and its coming from British Muslins!!!
Moonboots, as far as I can see there is no mention of British Muslins in the reports I have watched or read, so maybe you are jumping the gun a bit early, you are probably correct, but no need to start blaming Muslims just yet.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4778575.stm

Moonboots
10-Aug-06, 09:54
Sorry but I am going by what ITV News said earlier. Maybe it isnt and maybe it is but Im only repeating to what i heard...

Moonboots
10-Aug-06, 09:59
Just now Sky has said it to have been of Young British Muslims.

They also said this is just the beginning. Police also knew about this for some time and only acted last night after something came up.

golach
10-Aug-06, 10:04
Just now Sky has said it to have been of Young British Muslims.

They also said this is just the beginning. Police also knew about this for some time and only acted last night after something came up.
I cannot find the word Muslim in this report, but maybe I am being pedantic
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1230417,00.html

Moonboots
10-Aug-06, 10:06
I am sorry but its maybe not updated yet. have you not got TV. Check Sky News and you will see

I have noticed on the report from skynews.com they are now saying its Young Asian Men.

We wont honestly know until the next few hours or maybe tomorrow

golach
10-Aug-06, 10:14
I am sorry but its maybe not updated yet. have you not got TV. Check Sky News and you will see

I have noticed on the report from skynews.com they are now saying its Young Asian Men.

We wont honestly know until the next few hours or maybe tomorrow
No offence its just me being me, I do apologise :confused

Moonboots
10-Aug-06, 10:17
No offence its just me being me, I do apologise :confused

No need to apologise.... I am just informing people on here which I have heard on TV. I wouldnt make it up or make any speculation on who the terrorists are but as i said in the previous post we wont know everything until later.

Ive updated the first posting to reflect this

What I do know is that they arrested them in London, Thames Valley and Birmingham. Most were arrested in London though.

mr do dar
10-Aug-06, 10:42
i watched gmtv this morning and the screem reports was saying it was the british muslim that the mi5 and the police have arrested in the early hours of this morning . [evil]

j4bberw0ck
10-Aug-06, 11:51
I have noticed on the report from skynews.com they are now saying its Young Asian Men.

It's OK - by the time fred gets here they'll be agents of the American government.

pultneytooner
10-Aug-06, 11:54
Why is it always planes they go for?

Saveman
10-Aug-06, 12:00
Why is it always planes they go for?


For maximum news coverage and disruption?

Blazing Sporrans
10-Aug-06, 12:32
It's OK - by the time fred gets here they'll be agents of the American government.

http://www.teddies.be/Forum/images/smiles/icon_rofl.gif

Max
10-Aug-06, 12:57
I am disgusted by this. Can you imagine the amount of people that would've been effected if 10 flights from the UK to the US had been blown out of the sky?! To think the terrorists were born in this Country!! I don't know what the answer but I can think of a few things....................................

Ricco
10-Aug-06, 13:42
Whatever the final report we mustn't lose sight that these are extremists. What is really sad is that those involved at the front end are idiots who have been influenced by people who are still free. There are extremists in all social groups - we have our own who join organisations like BNP.

I feel most sorry for those Muslims and others who will be affected by this - there may even be a severe lash-back by our own extremists. However, I do think that the British public is too complacent about extremism in this country, turning a bliind eye within each community until the issue becomes a major problem. Much better if all cultures openly report their suspicions to the authorities. If nothing is found there is no harm done, and the message is out that society will no longer stand for any nonsense.

unicorn
10-Aug-06, 13:45
Excellent post ricco I totally agree, thats pretty much what I wanted to say.

Kingetter
10-Aug-06, 14:21
How its been reported overseas:-
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,20082570-38200,00.html
http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/000200608101501.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-08-10-britain-terror_x.htm?POE=NEWISVA
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/4107573.html
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-Britain-Terror-Plot.html?hp&ex=1155268800&en=20af0d18d2f5587e&ei=5094&partner=homepage

MadPict
10-Aug-06, 14:43
Whatever the final report we mustn't lose sight that these are extremists. What is really sad is that those involved at the front end are idiots who have been influenced by people who are still free. There are extremists in all social groups - we have our own who join organisations like BNP.


The lack of any stout action by the leaders of the Islamic faith decrying these people as not being true Muslims is worrying. They must drive the extremists from Islam just as we must drive the white power thugs from our society.

Only difference is the BNP do not try to bomb planes....:roll:

Ricco
10-Aug-06, 14:53
The lack of any stout action by the leaders of the Islamic faith decrying these people as not being true Muslims is worrying. They must drive the extremists from Islam just as we must drive the white power thugs from our society.

Only difference is the BNP do not try to bomb planes....:roll:

So true, thank goodness.

sjwahwah
10-Aug-06, 14:57
I recall them shooting a young lad a few months ago.. who was a terrorist... he wasn't ... he had done nothing. I remember another fella... shot dead on the tube cause he was a terrorist... he wasn't. Looks like a load of fear mongering to me!

Kingetter
10-Aug-06, 14:59
The lack of any stout action by the leaders of the Islamic faith decrying these people as not being true Muslims is worrying. They must drive the extremists from Islam just as we must drive the white power thugs from our society.

Only difference is the BNP do not try to bomb planes....:roll:

But do we really know 100% about 100% of their allegiances, moral/spiritual or otherwise?

j4bberw0ck
10-Aug-06, 15:02
Interesting. I thought about posting a poll earlier today, asking how many thought this was for real, and how many thought it was just a stunt to keep us in a state of fear and "legitimise" the "War on Terror".

Decided it would be in bad taste....... and then realised I couldn't find the "poll" button. I presume I haven't served a sufficient apprenticeship, or something. :lol:

(This in relation to sjwahwah's post)

Kingetter
10-Aug-06, 15:05
Certainly bad taste, inappropriate and I think its just as well you didn't, IMHO that is.

Ricco
10-Aug-06, 15:06
I recall them shooting a young lad a few months ago.. who was a terrorist... he wasn't ... he had done nothing. I remember another fella... shot dead on the tube cause he was a terrorist... he wasn't. Looks like a load of fear mongering to me!

Now hang on, SJ. The recent 'lad' shot in the arm had done something - not terrorism, granted but do remember he is being investigated for child porn at the moment. And surely he and those arrested today have been up to something to raise suspicions? Think of the Damailola case - the two now charged with his murder were 'wrongly arrested' at one point but have now been found to be guilty. Seems that they have been bad boys for a long time.

Granted, the Menezes case was an error - poor communication and too much haste - understandable in the circumstances. I think the security services have taken recent shortcomings on board and are making sure that their case in quite solid on this one.

sjwahwah
10-Aug-06, 15:15
sorry... but, I want to see EVIDENCE before they start taking our freedoms away!

sjwahwah
10-Aug-06, 15:20
Now hang on, SJ. The recent 'lad' shot in the arm had done something - not terrorism, granted but do remember he is being investigated for child porn at the moment. And surely he and those arrested today have been up to something to raise suspicions? Think of the Damailola case - the two now charged with his murder were 'wrongly arrested' at one point but have now been found to be guilty. Seems that they have been bad boys for a long time.

Granted, the Menezes case was an error - poor communication and too much haste - understandable in the circumstances. I think the security services have taken recent shortcomings on board and are making sure that their case in quite solid on this one.

hold on understandable!?!?! what kinda crack are you smokin? there is NO excuse for shooting somebody as many times as they did... especially for doing nothing and then lie about it on the evening news!

and we are speaking about terrorism.. not kiddy murders here... aye they're investigating him for child porn now.. gotta get him on something don't they? They also accused him of being a KKK sympathiser for a CD he had in his house! Duh! how can they be so ridiculous.

Alright... he's muslim.. let's shoot him based on zero evidence... ok.. he didnae have that so.. he had a CD that mentions KKK.... we'll get him for that.. wait.. this guys a muslim!... ok.. on to child pornography... either he has it or doesn't... hardly much of an investigation!

Kingetter
10-Aug-06, 15:25
Is there a hint here of scapegoat?

sjwahwah
10-Aug-06, 15:28
Certainly bad taste, inappropriate and I think its just as well you didn't, IMHO that is.

at this time... I would vote for YES.. this is more fear mongering... they've got Reid on the BBC website... giving some talk about how they are going to strip your freedoms away but, he has not provided ONE SHRED of evidence!

Where's tony? in the barbados.

Don't let them coerce you into believing something without any evidence.. hard evidence!!

Blazing Sporrans
10-Aug-06, 15:38
I recall them shooting a young lad a few months ago.. who was a terrorist... he wasn't ... he had done nothing. I remember another fella... shot dead on the tube cause he was a terrorist... he wasn't. Looks like a load of fear mongering to me!

That's the unfortunate nature of the security business though sj... Yes the Jean Charles de Menezez situation should never have happened - there are no excuses for blatant errors in surveillance operations which culminate in the death of innocent citizens, not to mention the attempted cover-up afterwards. As regards the Forest Gate shooting (I suppose it is that one that you're referring to as well) did the IPCC not rule that accidental as a result of contact between the Police officer concerned and Mohammed Abdul Kahar, who were both in a narrow stairwell? There was no apparent intent to discharge the weapon and not even any evidence of carelessness to open disciplinary proceedings against the officer concerned. I know a little about the use of these weapons (in this case the H&K MP5) and the target area is the central body mass, not the subject's shoulder. To miss the target area from 3' (as described by Mr Kahar - the IPCC said it was a lot less!) would be unforgivable as a marksman and indicative that for whatever reason (one that may come out in the fullness of time) the gun was indeed accidentally discharged. For very practical reasons, carbines are not designed for use in close-quarter confrontations, the Police carry Glock 17 handguns for that - which again tends to support the report that the gun was accidentally discharged. You possibly don't have faith in the IPCC's report, however you have to have faith in something, sometime.

The fact of the matter is that the Police and security services aren't given appropriate credit for the disruption of any planned militant or terrorist action because the possible outcomes are so difficult to quantify in the first place and tend to exist as abstract thought in the majority. What your post implies to me is that this is nothing more than an over-reaction by those responsible for our safety and welfare and I think it is irresponsible for an obviously well educated person like yourself to respond in such a way while the facts are still emerging. Don't get me wrong, if time proves you right, then I'll be man enough to apologise, however if you are wrong, will you give the Police and security services the credit for their intervention today?

Blazing Sporrans
10-Aug-06, 15:42
Alright... he's muslim.. let's shoot him based on zero evidence... ok.. he didnae have that so.. he had a CD that mentions KKK.... we'll get him for that.. wait.. this guys a muslim!... ok.. on to child pornography... either he has it or doesn't... hardly much of an investigation!

I think I've already covered the 'shoot him based on zero evidence' scenario, however are you now saying that because evidence of another crime may have been uncovered in an ancillary investigation that it should be ignored? Why? Because he got shot? 'Scuse me sj but in your own parlance, what kinda crack are YOU smokin'?

MadPict
10-Aug-06, 15:48
hold on understandable!?!?! what kinda crack are you smokin? there is NO excuse for shooting somebody as many times as they did...

The officers involved have been cleared of any wrongdoing - they had to make a split second judgement and acted in accordance with the guidelines for dealing with a suspected terrorist suicide bomber - multiple shots to the head to stop any motor nerve reaction and possible detonation of a device by handheld trigger. The information fed to firearms officers was at fault - not the officers.


Alright... he's muslim.. let's shoot him based on zero evidence... ok..

The IPCC found that he was shot by accident at close range -

As B6 was on the half-landing (which is approx. 4'6" by 2'9") he states he was aware of two figures approaching from his right at speed. B6 states that he and the two figures came into contact and this caused him to lose his balance and come into contact with the wall. B6 says he was aware of person(s) pulling at his right arm. He states that he feared that the person(s) were trying to take his weapon, and that he feared for his life. During the confrontation the torch on B6's weapon had been turned off.

B6 states that he heard a 'pop' but did not register that it was a shot (he was wearing ear defenders, a helmet and a hooded suit [also respirator])...Clicking link will download PDF document. - http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/report.pdf

You seem to think that the Police are just out for a potshot at anyone with dark skin...

What are you smoking?........

changilass
10-Aug-06, 15:49
How much evidence do some folk need.

The actions taken today were as a direct result of an ongoing investigation.

Would you rather they wait till the planes have been blown out of the sky, rather than have the inconvinience of delayed flight.

Before you say I am niave to believe authorities, I would rather be niave and alive than pig headed and dead[disgust]

squidge
10-Aug-06, 15:54
I think we should all hold our horses until the full details of the situation emerge - that might not be for a few days. We also need to remember that not all muslims are terrorists or extremists. In addition We need to give the leaders who have been criticised for not responding to decry the actions of those planning today's attacks someone to decry in the first place.

I have said this before and i will say it again at the risk of being called sanctimonious or wishy washy but if this is shown to be young british muslims we HAVE to look at our society and try to understand what it is that leads young british men into this sort of activity. We have to try to understand in order to minimise the breeding ground for this sort of attitude. UNless we do this we will continue to suffer this sort of disruption and these sorts of worries.

sjwahwah
10-Aug-06, 16:11
well tell me madpict.. who are they shootin then?

but, blazing sporran the security forces are NEVER wrong.. have you ever noticed that? You wouldn't be sayin that if either of these men were your family or friends. and one shot... if you know what your doing is quite enough. So what's the score if it's all to blame on surveillence... the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing? And anyways... they are quick to get on the telly to tell us what we'll be allowed or disallowed to do but, give us ZERO evidence and more fear...disorientation...suggestion and now let me guess.. "they" are gonna swoop down and save us. Classic... elementary.. but, classic all the same!

changilass... after this... trust me... they will erode more freedoms and before you know it if you wanna get on a plane... you'll have to be naked, shackled and handcuffed... and a probe on departure and arrival.


At this stage.. what I've read it looks like the classic fear mongering sorry.. but, that's my opinion.. like it or not.

MadPict
10-Aug-06, 16:11
In addition We need to give the leaders who have been criticised for not responding to decry the actions of those planning today's attacks someone to decry in the first place.

My post about this was not related to todays incidents but all incidents in the past where Muslims have carried out atrocities in the name of Islam....
The Imams and other leaders are pretty timid in their condemnation of such acts....


at the risk of being called sanctimonious or wishy washy

You are - both.
They all (or seem to be all) pretty disgusted with the UK actions and that is fair enough. Just as I am disgusted by the actions of this government but if I was a Muslim I would not strap several pounds of explosives and climb onto a train and kill innocent members of the public. Members of the public, that the young Muslims responsible claim, are DIRECTLY involved in the killing of other Muslims in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Many young British Muslims detest living in the UK and our way of life - if this is how they feel then they can go back to the land of their fathers and practice their religion there.

MadPict
10-Aug-06, 16:21
well tell me madpict.. who are they shootin then?


Well in the past 10 years they have shot dead....


Police have shot dead more than 14 men in the past 10 years. The vast majority of killings have been found to be legally justified

June 2003 Keith Larkins, 33, a mental patient, was shot by police at Heathrow. He had fired blanks from a replica gun. An inquest found he had been lawfully killed.

July 2001 Derek Bennett, 29, was shot four times in the back by police in Brixton, south London. He held a gun-shaped lighter to the head of a passer-by, then ran off when confronted by police. In June his family won the right to challenge the inquest verdict of lawful killing.

July 2001 Andrew Kernan, 37, a schizophrenic, was shot twice in the chest by police in Liverpool. Kernan had been brandishing a samurai sword and ignored police warnings to drop it. An inquest found he had been lawfully killed.

October 2000 Patrick O’Donnell, 19, was killed by police after he took his mother and girlfriend hostage in Islington, north London.

September 2000 Kirk Davies, 30, was shot dead by West Yorkshire police in Wakefield. The former soldier had threatened a police officer and had an air rifle. An inquest ruled he had been lawfully killed.

September 1999 Harry Stanley, 46, of Hackney, east London was shot dead as he walked home carrying a table leg in a plastic bag, which officers mistook for a gun. Two officers are on bail over the killing.

June 1999 Derek Bateman, 47, was shot in the heart by police in North Holmwood, Surrey. Officers had received a call from his girlfriend saying he was armed and threatening to shoot her, or himself. Bateman was unarmed, and police faced disciplinary action.

April 1999 Antony Kitts, 20, was shot dead in Falmouth, Cornwall, after threatening police with an air rifle that they believed to be a shotgun. An inquest found he had been lawfully killed.

February 1998 Michael Fitzgerald, 32, was shot dead by police in Bedford after his girlfriend mistook him for a burglar. He was in his own home, but carrying a fake gun that he refused to drop. He was lawfully killed, an inquest found.

January 1998 James Ashley, 39, was shot dead in front of his girlfriend while he was naked and unarmed. Sussex police admitted negligence after the killing at St Leonards, East Sussex, and Paul Whitehouse, the chief constable, resigned.

November 1996 David Howell, 40, a psychiatric patient, was shot after arming himself with a knife and taking a shop manager hostage in Birmingham. An inquest jury returned a verdict of lawful killing.

September 1996 Diarmuid O’Neill, 27, an IRA suspect, died in a hail of 10 bullets when police raided his home in Hammersmith, west London. Although he had been unarmed, an inquest decided he had been lawfully killed.

April 1995 David Ewin, 38, an unarmed day release prisoner, died three weeks after he was shot. He had nearly crushed a policeman while trying to escape in a stolen sports car in Barnes, west London. The officer was later cleared of murder and manslaughter.

April 1995 James Brady, 21, was shot dead in a police ambush at Westerhope village near Newcastle upon Tyne after officers mistook a torch he was carrying for a gun. Inquest jurors returned an open verdict. The Crown Prosecution Service decided against prosecution in 1999.Source - Timesonline

How many Muslims can you spot in that list?

You sure yu haven't been sleeping with your head near a source of EMFs....[lol]

Blazing Sporrans
10-Aug-06, 16:25
Sorry sj - did I not just say that they were wrong in the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezez? I must check but I'm sure I did....

With the type of game you're playing, you'd be the first on here to condemn them if these planes had been blown out of the sky. Not doing enough I suppose, too busy running around shooting innocent people. Tell me please, if you're so unhappy with the way this country is being run and with our freedoms being eroded, why not live in a more liberal and tolerant one? You're condemning them for giving us zero evidence - I'd say give them a chance first. You wouldn't have known about this latest terrorist alert before having your Rice Crispies this morning, so it's a bit early to be demanding evidence from them. I think they have greater concerns to answer than worrying about what sjwahwah on Caithness.org wants.... unless she stamps her feet and screams too!

Ricco
10-Aug-06, 16:25
Do you know, I never cease to be amazed and astounded at the responses and the tone that some use. Instantly shouting about people being 'on crack' and police 'shooting anyone with a dark skin'. It just amazes me that someone cannot discuss an issue calmly.

I seem to remember that not many months ago there was an enquiry into police shooting of a man who had a table leg in a plastic bag - and no, he didn't have a dark skin.

No, I think I would rather support our police in their actions to protect us. Better that than wait for the explosions and deaths. I certainly do not support the current conspiracy theory about their motives.

As has been said:

1) The police cannot give much away during an investigation - to do so would only help those being investigated.

2) All will be revealed after the investigations are complete.

3) There is no conspiracy - all cases have been reported on, not covered up.

So, let's wait..

sjwahwah
10-Aug-06, 16:35
Well in the past 10 years they have shot dead....



How many Muslims can you spot in that list?

You sure yu haven't been sleeping with your head near a source of EMFs....[lol]

where did I say they only shot Muslim folk? Jean de Menezes was not Muslim?!?

sjwahwah
10-Aug-06, 16:38
Do you know, I never cease to be amazed and astounded at the responses and the tone that some use. Instantly shouting about people being 'on crack' and police 'shooting anyone with a dark skin'. It just amazes me that someone cannot discuss an issue calmly.

I seem to remember that not many months ago there was an enquiry into police shooting of a man who had a table leg in a plastic bag - and no, he didn't have a dark skin.

No, I think I would rather support our police in their actions to protect us. Better that than wait for the explosions and deaths. I certainly do not support the current conspiracy theory about their motives.

As has been said:

1) The police cannot give much away during an investigation - to do so would only help those being investigated.

2) All will be revealed after the investigations are complete.

3) There is no conspiracy - all cases have been reported on, not covered up.

So, let's wait..

people that find it "understandable" that Jean de Menezes was shot for no good reason and then were lied to about it on telly? that's just a ridiculous thing to say.

squidge
10-Aug-06, 16:38
You are - both.. ooh mad pict you are sooooo sweet



They all (or seem to be all) pretty disgusted with the UK actions and that is fair enough. Just as I am disgusted by the actions of this government but if I was a Muslim I would not strap several pounds of explosives and climb onto a train and kill innocent members of the public. Members of the public, that the young Muslims responsible claim, are DIRECTLY involved in the killing of other Muslims in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Many young British Muslims detest living in the UK and our way of life - if this is how they feel then they can go back to the land of their fathers and practice their religion there. Firstly its not ALL. And thenext bit you say is exactly my point - i wouldnt do it and you wouldnt do it so what is it that makes these people do it. I think that if we dont try to figure it out we cant stop it happening and no one seems to be trying to do that.

sjwahwah
10-Aug-06, 16:40
Sorry sj - did I not just say that they were wrong in the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezez? I must check but I'm sure I did....

With the type of game you're playing, you'd be the first on here to condemn them if these planes had been blown out of the sky. Not doing enough I suppose, too busy running around shooting innocent people. Tell me please, if you're so unhappy with the way this country is being run and with our freedoms being eroded, why not live in a more liberal and tolerant one? You're condemning them for giving us zero evidence - I'd say give them a chance first. You wouldn't have known about this latest terrorist alert before having your Rice Crispies this morning, so it's a bit early to be demanding evidence from them. I think they have greater concerns to answer than worrying about what sjwahwah on Caithness.org wants.... unless she stamps her feet and screams too!

try Operation Bojinka.

MadPict
10-Aug-06, 16:40
where did I say they only shot Muslim folk? Jean de Menezes was not Muslim?!?

I was referring back to some of your earlier rubbish....



Alright... he's muslim.. let's shoot him based on zero evidence... ok

Ricco
10-Aug-06, 16:43
people that find it "understandable" that Jean de Menezes was shot for no good reason and then were lied to about it on telly? that's just a ridiculous thing to say.

Nope. Sorry, SJ... can't see the word 'understandable' in my last posting. It was that you quoted. My earlier reference to 'understandable' was not in relation to the public, so don't twist things. It was in relation to the high stress levels of the officers who had just been told to take out a suspected terrorist who might detonate a body-bomb at any second. They do not stop the man and ask "I say, are you a terrorist?"

Blazing Sporrans
10-Aug-06, 16:46
people that find it "understandable" that Jean de Menezes was shot for no good reason and then were lied to about it on telly? that's just a ridiculous thing to say.

I think you're either deliberately spinning Ricco's comments or choosing to interpret them in your own way sj. While I cannot speak for Ricco, the way I interpreted the comments about 'understanding' why Jean Charles de Menezez was shot was due to the armed officers beliefs that they were acting in the best interests of a packed commuter train on the information made available. Albeit and granted that that information was well at fault, nevertheless, it must have been their earnest belief that many lives were at stake, otherwise they would not have taken such an extreme course of action.

sjwahwah
10-Aug-06, 16:52
did you see the pictures of Jean de Menezes lying dead in the tube? he was wearing a denim jacket... kinda the cropped and tight fitting kind.... where were the bombs? You ONLY shoot when you are being threatened yourself or they are threatening others... he also had no bag.

Blazing Sporrans
10-Aug-06, 16:55
try Operation Bojinka.
Apologies for being obtuse, however I fail to see the point that you are trying to make. Is it because it's another operation to simultaneously bomb many aircraft or should I be reading something else into it? Were some of my civil liberties eroded as a result? :~(

Ricco
10-Aug-06, 16:57
did you see the pictures of Jean de Menezes lying dead in the tube? he was wearing a denim jacket... kinda the cropped and tight fitting kind.... where were the bombs? You ONLY shoot when you are being threatened yourself or they are threatening others... he also had no bag.

Calm down, SJ. We are not disagreeing with you on this one. It was a dreadful mistake, and one that has been soundly and publically apologised for. We had just London bombed and the specialists were on high alert and probably under a great deal of stress, as I said.

Perhaps it may have been this fatal mistake that stopped anyone from being shot during last night's raids? But in these dangerous times we do have to rely on the forces that are there for our protection. Or do you propose that we do our own investigations and deal with the terrorists ourselves?

MadPict
10-Aug-06, 16:58
did you see the pictures of Jean de Menezes lying dead in the tube? he was wearing a denim jacket... kinda the cropped and tight fitting kind.... where were the bombs? You ONLY shoot when you are being threatened yourself or they are threatening others... he also had no bag.

Terrorists have moved on from the days of walking around with a mask on and carrying a big black ball with a fuse sticking out of the top!

They are able to mould plastic explosives around their torso which would be able to be worn under normal everyday clothing. Even a few ounces of semtex in a confined space will kill many. They don't need shrapnel or bolts in such cases - the debris from the carriage will do the job just as well.

Go back to building your tyre horse shed.......

Ricco
10-Aug-06, 17:01
Terrorists have moved on from the days of walking around with a mask on and carrying a big black ball with a fuse sticking out of the top!

They are able to mould plastic explosives around their torso which would be able to be worn under normal everyday clothing. Even a few ounces of semtex in a confined space will kill many. They don't need shrapnel or bolts in such cases - the debris from the carriage will do the job just as well.

Go back to building your tyre horse shed.......

You're right there, MadPict. Just remember wasshisname, the shoe bomber. A couple of ounces in his shoe would have brought down that plane.

Blazing Sporrans
10-Aug-06, 17:04
You're right there, MadPict. Just remember wasshisname, the shoe bomber. A couple of ounces in his shoe would have brought down that plane.
Richard Reid

MadPict
10-Aug-06, 17:08
I have actually seen, and heard and felt, just how LITTLE explosive you actually need to use to cause severe damage - grams in weight.

Richard Reid would have brought that flight down - of that there is no doubt.

Just as a terrorist walking onto the Tube does not need to be carrying a bag....

Blazing Sporrans
10-Aug-06, 17:10
Terrorists have moved on from the days of walking around with a mask on and carrying a big black ball with a fuse sticking out of the top!
It seems that there is the expectation that he at least should have been wearing the old dynamite waistcoat....

However, in general terms, the more confined the space, the greater the effect of the explosion, the less explosive required.

sjwahwah
10-Aug-06, 17:11
I have actually seen, and heard and felt, just how LITTLE explosive you actually need to use to cause severe damage - grams in weight.

Richard Reid would have brought that flight down - of that there is no doubt.

Just as a terrorist walking onto the Tube does not need to be carrying a bag....

admit it... we were lied to profusely by the police... he didn't hop a barrier.. he wasn't sprinting from the cops... he wasn't wearing a big puffy winter coat either.

Blazing Sporrans
10-Aug-06, 17:13
admit it... we were lied to profusely by the police... he didn't hop a barrier.. he wasn't sprinting from the cops... he wasn't wearing a big puffy winter coat either.

Now where did ANYONE here say he was wearing a big puffy winter coat? However we have NOT condoned the attempted cover-up in the aftermath of the de Menezez shooting....

Ricco
10-Aug-06, 17:13
admit it... we were lied to profusely by the police... he didn't hop a barrier.. he wasn't sprinting from the cops... he wasn't wearing a big puffy winter coat either.

Oh give it a rest, SJ. That's done. It been through the courts of the land. I am far more concerned about NOW - what is going on with this latest stuff. Or do you hold this as a conspiracy as well?

sjwahwah
10-Aug-06, 17:15
It seems that there is the expectation that he at least should have been wearing the old dynamite waistcoat....

However, in general terms, the more confined the space, the greater the effect of the explosion, the less explosive required.
somebody shoulda told the boys on 7/7 that then.... c'mon.........

why was he shot in the head then? (de menezes) they could see he wasn't wearing any bombs on his waist... why the head? according to Madpict he maybe could've had a semtex tooth bomb![lol]

MadPict
10-Aug-06, 17:17
admit it... we were lied to profusely by the police... he didn't hop a barrier.. he wasn't sprinting from the cops... he wasn't wearing a big puffy winter coat either.

He wasn't a terrorist either. He was as much a victim of 7/7 as the others. The police have put their hands up to this.

Which is more than would have happened back home in Brasil.... (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7358148/)

sjwahwah
10-Aug-06, 17:19
Now where did ANYONE here say he was wearing a big puffy winter coat? However we have NOT condoned the attempted cover-up in the aftermath of the de Menezez shooting.... police did originally


Oh give it a rest, SJ. That's done. It been through the courts of the land. I am far more concerned about NOW - what is going on with this latest stuff. Or do you hold this as a conspiracy as well?

well.. let's just wait and see how it all pans out will we? so, give it a rest with your presumptions.

Blazing Sporrans
10-Aug-06, 17:25
why was he shot in the head then? (de menezes) they could see he wasn't wearing any bombs on his waist... why the head? according to Madpict he maybe could've had a semtex tooth bomb![lol]
I think MadPict covered the answer to that in post #32. And the police may originally have said that de Menezez was wearing a puffy winter coat, however they said much that wasn't true in the aftermath of that shooting. A point I've laboured several times or more. My question was where did ANYONE HERE say he was wearing a big puffy winter coat?

sapphire
10-Aug-06, 17:29
Conspiracy theory or not...as someone who is due to fly in the next couple of days ..albeit not to the USA my stress levels have gone up by at least a factor of 10.Who says holidays are supposed to be relaxing? :cry:

j4bberw0ck
10-Aug-06, 17:32
SJwahwah, they shoot to the head for the maximum chance of an instant kill, to avoid as much as possible the risk of the bomber being able to detonate a bomb. And as you saw with Menenez, they don't just shoot once. And I for one don't have a problem with that.

sjwahwah
10-Aug-06, 17:32
I think MadPict covered the answer to that in post #32. And the police may originally have said that de Menezez was wearing a puffy winter coat, however they said much that wasn't true in the aftermath of that shooting. A point I've laboured several times or more. My question was where did ANYONE HERE say he was wearing a big puffy winter coat?

it does not matter if ANYONE HERE said he was... I said we were lied to and this is one of the things they said... NOBODY HERE mentioned he hopped over a barrier either... does that matter????:confused

Blazing Sporrans
10-Aug-06, 17:40
it does not matter if ANYONE HERE said he was... I said we were lied to and this is one of the things they said... NOBODY HERE mentioned he hopped over a barrier either... does that matter????:confused
Then why bring it up as if we all need to be informed by you? I also said we were lied to, yet there's no apparent acknowledgement of that by you anywhere. Do you think you're the only person capable of ascertaining facts for themselves? You'll have to accept my word that I'm prostrate on the ground in gratitude for your being here to enlighten us... ;)

sjwahwah
10-Aug-06, 17:43
SJwahwah, they shoot to the head for the maximum chance of an instant kill, to avoid as much as possible the risk of the bomber being able to detonate a bomb. And as you saw with Menenez, they don't just shoot once. And I for one don't have a problem with that.

technology is lovely thing some tell me... I mean think about what your saying here... tiny bombs and ounces of semtex.. and you don't think any of these bombs can be timed or remotely controlled anyways? I really don't see the sense in their shoot to kill policy or the shot in the head policy. If they would have shot Jean in the shoulder or the knee cap over a "genuine" or "understandable" error.. he'd be living to tell us about what screw ups they are.

MadPict
10-Aug-06, 17:47
why was he shot in the head then? (de menezes) they could see he wasn't wearing any bombs on his waist... why the head? according to Madpict he maybe could've had a semtex tooth bomb![lol]

Oh highly amusing - where did I say he may have had a semtex tooth?

Small point I know - but you shoot someone wearing explosives around their torso (the main target when you shoot someone NOT wearing explosives) you risk detonating the explosives.

Shooting to the head stops the bomber (or suspected bomber) dead in their tracks. It stops everything - and here is where the conspiracy theorists wet themselves - it was developed as a result of years of having to deal with suicide bombers. By the Israelis and Sri Lankans.....

Sits back and waits for the CT's to warm up their fingers.....

percy toboggan
10-Aug-06, 17:48
[quote=Ricco]Whatever the final report we mustn't lose sight that these are extremists. What is really sad is that those involved at the front end are idiots who have been influenced by people who are still free. There are extremists in all social groups - we have our own who join organisations like BNP.

quote]

There are 'extremists' and there are 'extremists'. I am no apologist for the British National Party's more lunatic fringe' yet to my knowledge they have never killed anyone, or conspired to cause explosions over the mid Atlantic or any where else.
Of course, if you know differently I will stand corrected.

Your statement, and your comparison staggered me, to be quite honest.

Blazing Sporrans
10-Aug-06, 17:52
I really don't see the sense in their shoot to kill policy or the shot in the head policy. If they would have shot Jean in the shoulder or the knee cap over a "genuine" or "understandable" error.. he'd be living to tell us about what screw ups they are.
Do you not understand the fear that if a suspected terrorist is not incapacitated then many lives may be lost if he/she is left with the ability to detonate an IED? If they had shot Jean in the shoulder or the knee cap and he HAD been a terrorist, neither they nor the other commuters in the same carriage would be here today to worry about it. The failure to identify him as innocent through surveillance and the people responsible for THAT error are those most at fault. It's brutal and it's sad but it's the scenario that we're living in.

kas
10-Aug-06, 18:01
Conspiracy theory or not...as someone who is due to fly in the next couple of days ..albeit not to the USA my stress levels have gone up by at least a factor of 10.Who says holidays are supposed to be relaxing? :cry:

Try not to worry Saphire. The next few weeks will probably be one of the safest times to travel, with the high security measures in place.

unicorn
10-Aug-06, 18:24
I go with the theory that when your times up it's up and you cant change it!!
Try not to worry Saphire. The next few weeks will probably be one of the safest times to travel, with the high security measures in place.

sjwahwah
10-Aug-06, 18:31
Do you not understand the fear that if a suspected terrorist is not incapacitated then many lives may be lost if he/she is left with the ability to detonate an IED? If they had shot Jean in the shoulder or the knee cap and he HAD been a terrorist, neither they nor the other commuters in the same carriage would be here today to worry about it. The failure to identify him as innocent through surveillance and the people responsible for THAT error are those most at fault. It's brutal and it's sad but it's the scenario that we're living in.

yes.. I totally agree.. a finely tuned "scenario".

sjwahwah
10-Aug-06, 18:33
Try not to worry Saphire. The next few weeks will probably be one of the safest times to travel, with the high security measures in place.
Security level is at the Highest... danger is imminent.. about to occur... impending...

fred
10-Aug-06, 18:34
I recall them shooting a young lad a few months ago.. who was a terrorist... he wasn't ... he had done nothing. I remember another fella... shot dead on the tube cause he was a terrorist... he wasn't. Looks like a load of fear mongering to me!

Just what I thought when I saw it on the news, how convenient. A junior minister just resigned over the arms to Israel affair, a back bench revolt is demanding Parliament be recalled to deal with the Lebanon affair and there's talk of trying Blair for war crimes in Scotland, couldn't have come at a better time.

And there hasn't been a dead Lebanese baby on TV all day.

Blazing Sporrans
10-Aug-06, 18:35
yes.. I totally agree.. a finely tuned "scenario".
I'm sure if it was that finely tuned they would have been able to find a Muslim target to better fit the scenario you would seem to prefer...

Blazing Sporrans
10-Aug-06, 18:37
Security level is at the Highest... danger is imminent.. about to occur... impending...
No more records to play sj? <yawn>

Wish
10-Aug-06, 18:38
I am just very thankful to the security services and police for stopping this potential mass murder in time. I dread to think how many people would have been killed had this gone undetected. I for one applaud them for what they have stooped today!

percy toboggan
10-Aug-06, 19:02
I am just very thankful to the security services and police for stopping this potential mass murder in time. I dread to think how many people would have been killed had this gone undetected. I for one applaud them for what they have stooped today!

HERE , HERE ! We should rally behind the forces of law and order in times like these. Forest Gate turned out to be a mistake but I'd rather have ten mistakes if, ocassionally we have a day like today - a success story.

Of course, the courts will decide if charges follow. We need convictions here, if the cases against these alleged conspirators fall flat then then senior Police and Military intelligence heads must roll.

This will not happen. There has to be substantive intelligence for what happened today.

fred
10-Aug-06, 19:05
It's OK - by the time fred gets here they'll be agents of the American government.

Like they did with the Miami Seven (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-_sfWzApXw&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Einformationclearinghouse%2 Einfo%2Farticle13782%2Ehtm) you mean?

More likely MI5.

Blazing Sporrans
10-Aug-06, 19:15
It's difficult to comprehend at this early stage how 21 people might have been arrested incorrectly in what has to have been a huge logistical operation. Hopefully this time the police and security services will emerge with well deserved credit.

golach
10-Aug-06, 19:38
why was he shot in the head then? (de menezes) they could see he wasn't wearing any bombs on his waist... why the head? according to Madpict he maybe could've had a semtex tooth bomb![lol]

There were 52 reasons why this illeagal immigrant was shot, that was the number of innocent victims on the 7/7, or do they not count and the over 700 injured victims, This is a WAR against terrorism!!!!!, innocent people get killed and hurt too.

scorrie
10-Aug-06, 19:52
Perhaps nobody here said he was wearing a big coat, but I remember clearly that people used that as part of their argument that what the officers did was justifiable under the circumstances. They also quoted that he had jumped the barriers etc, all things that turned out to be fabricated.

I actually watched the Sky News live feed from the station and heard the account given by an eye-witness. From what he said, and looking at the logic of the way the incident occured, I formed the opinion that this was an unlawful killing. There is no great science to my methodology, I simply asked myself whether I would rather believe a guy who saw it happen before his eyes and who had no reason to lie, or take the word of Police Officers who had just made an enormous error. The British public often seem to naively believe the first account coming from anyone remotely official and it is a simple fact that because Mr Menenez was a "foreigner" people care less about the truth. If it had been a white, regular, Joe Public geezer then matters would have been very different.

As has been said elsewhere, the Police have a near impossible job in trying to prevent terrorist attacks. The logistics of terrorism and the nature of modern life means that there will always be a way to breach the tightest of security. The one saving grace we do have is that the large majority of people do not wish to kill innocent human beings and that is a fact we should not lose sight of. The gut-reaction seems to be to close ranks against anyone who looks remotely like they might be of a certain "race". This is what happened to Mr Menenez and the Police would do well to concentrate their efforts on good intelligence and surveillance, whilst remaining professional under pressure. Someone else said that it would be acceptable for 10 errors to be made in exchange for one case where they are successful. Whilst I am delighted with the efforts the Police have made in uncovering this latest plot, I would have to question whether the families of 10 innocent victims would see things in the same way.

scorrie
10-Aug-06, 20:01
There were 52 reasons why this illeagal immigrant was shot, that was the number of innocent victims on the 7/7, or do they not count and the over 700 injured victims, This is a WAR against terrorism!!!!!, innocent people get killed and hurt too.

I don't think that the Death Penalty is being issued for illegal immigration Golach. Why not go the whole hog and kill another 51 illegal immigrants to even up the score?

You need to look beyond the siege mentality, otherwise we will be butchering one another until there is only one person left.

Can you honestly say that you would be happy for the Police to kill one of your family in error, simply because there is a war on?

Oh, I forgot, Mr Menenez was illegal, foreign scum and was, therefore, sub-human.

Poor stuff Golach!!

bigpete
10-Aug-06, 20:01
Been reading the huge amount of posts by sjwahwah, could not put up with it any longer.. he makes it absolutely plain he knows nothing whatsoever about dealing with terrorism. Take for example the sentence: "You ONLY shoot when you are being threatened yourself or they are threatening others" what?! you wouldn't last long mate - what armchair does he use, guaranteed the most face to face danger he's come across is when he's got a sharp edge on the tin of beans he's just opened (of course I might be wrong, so sjwahwah, PLEASE do tell us of your security/military experiences - by your spouting you MUST be an expert? - we're waiting..) or is it all from the newspapers? Of course if you DO have experience I beg to be forgiven..
Obviously we all are entitled to our opinions, but come on mate you're well off here!

Blazing Sporrans
10-Aug-06, 20:14
I have taken pains scorrie to be necessarily critical of the police and/or security services whose ineptitude led to Jean Charles de Menezez death and I've done it several times on this thread. I'm not an apologist for the police and I don't excuse them from their actions or inactions. The officers responsible will however have to live with it on their consciences (if nothing else) until the end of their days and if they are decent human beings, I suspect that they will be thinking about this poor chap every day for the rest of their lives.

I agree with much else that you do say, however if someone launches into this thread by beginning with your post then they will not understand the point I was trying to make to sjwahwah... Apologies if this offends.

Dreadnought
10-Aug-06, 20:23
You want to stop fundamentalist terrorism? Then take away their power base, their support. Stop invading their countries with armies and invade them with aid workers, stop bombing them with explosives and start bombing them with seed crops, food, medical supplies.
Help those countries instead of bombing them into the stone age and the terrorists' grass roots support will disappear.
Half the reason we get attacked is our own foreign policy. If Blair was not so desperate to be in the spotlight he would not have dragged this country into the mire on the coattails of the US. We would not now be entangled in Viet Nam part 2 in Iraq, and we would not now be reaping the backlash from misguided, brainwashed, indoctrinated young British muslims

scorrie
10-Aug-06, 20:45
I have also taken pains scorrie to be necessarily critical of the police and/or security services whose ineptitude led to Jean Charles de Menezez death and I've done it several times on this thread. Please don't use my quote as some kind of introduction for an explanation that's already been covered (the cover-up in the aftermath of the shooting), as you're taking what I said completely out of context. I don't mean that to sound severe, I'd just rather that people read these postings in their entirity to properly assimilate what has been said and by whom. I'm not an apologist for the police and I don't excuse them from their actions or inactions. The officers responsible will however have to live with it on their consciences (if nothing else) until the end of their days and if they are decent human beings, I suspect that they will be thinking about this poor chap every day for the rest of their lives.

I agree with much else that you do say, however if someone launches into this thread by beginning with your post then they will not understand the point I was trying to make to sjwahwah... Apologies if this offends.

Have removed your quote from earlier post.

sjwahwah
10-Aug-06, 20:50
big pete.. I am a she. and no I have zero, zip, zilch, expertise of security services... nor have I ever served in the armed forces. But, you don't need to be to see what's going on.

what has happened today is fearmongering! We put on the telly.. they tell you they've arrested 21 people who are terrorists that were planning to blow up 10 airliners (very similiar to Operation Bojinca) They tell you flights have been cancelled and delayed and the security risk is set to it's highest.. which means danger or an attack is IMMINENT.. meaning its about to occur.. impending... (America will be under Red Alert... read about it.. it is MARTIAL LAW)

"A state of war only serves as an excuse for domestic tyranny" - AS (The War on Terror)

one gets alarmed, afraid and disorientated at the information presented. Then they tell us that it is probable it is Al-Qaeda.... they tell us we cannot carry any carry on luggage on the planes.. and what we do has to be in a clear plastic baggie? and mothers must test their babies milk to ensure its not liquid explosives. They also tell us Tony Blair KNEW about the plot before he went to the Barbados. We will wait to see what our heroes will do to save us... give them a wee while and general public will be soo scared out of their wits they will be behind them to go get the bad guy. Same MO..everytime.

It's called coercion and I think from the information I've researched we can probably expect "real" terror attacks in the next two months.. a psyop not conducted by terrorists but by our own governments. It would hardly be the first time and won't be the last? So, buckle up the roads gettin' bumpy.

fred
10-Aug-06, 20:51
You want to stop fundamentalist terrorism? Then take away their power base, their support. Stop invading their countries with armies and invade them with aid workers, stop bombing them with explosives and start bombing them with seed crops, food, medical supplies.
Help those countries instead of bombing them into the stone age and the terrorists' grass roots support will disappear.
Half the reason we get attacked is our own foreign policy. If Blair was not so desperate to be in the spotlight he would not have dragged this country into the mire on the coattails of the US. We would not now be entangled in Viet Nam part 2 in Iraq, and we would not now be reaping the backlash from misguided, brainwashed, indoctrinated young British muslims

I agree, the terrorists methods may be wrong, it is never right to kill innocent civilians, not them not us not Israelis or Americans it's always wrong but at least their cause is a just cause.

It's a sad day when people not being killed in Britain fills the media while pulling crushed children out of the rubble in Lebanon, Iraq and Afghanistan is forgotten.

Blazing Sporrans
10-Aug-06, 21:00
ty scorrie.... :D

I have reciprocated :D

Dreadnought
10-Aug-06, 21:00
It's a sad day when people not being killed in Britain fills the media while pulling crushed children out of the rubble in Lebanon, Iraq and Afghanistan is forgotten.

Last month we had the two minute silence to remember the victims of the 7/7 London bombings. Very commendable. But where are the silences for the thousands of innocent Iraqis killed by suicide bombers?

The Iraq body count (http://www.iraqbodycount.org/).

Blazing Sporrans
10-Aug-06, 21:05
big pete.. I am a she. and no I have zero, zip, zilch, expertise of security services... nor have I ever served in the armed forces. But, you don't need to be to see what's going on.

what has happened today is fearmongering! We put on the telly.. they tell you they've arrested 21 people who are terrorists that were planning to blow up 10 airliners (very similiar to Operation Bojinca) They tell you flights have been cancelled and delayed and the security risk is set to it's highest.. which means danger or an attack is IMMINENT.. meaning its about to occur.. impending... (America will be under Red Alert... read about it.. it is MARTIAL LAW)

"A state of war only serves as an excuse for domestic tyranny" - AS (The War on Terror)

one gets alarmed, afraid and disorientated at the information presented. Then they tell us that it is probable it is Al-Qaeda.... they tell us we cannot carry any carry on luggage on the planes.. and what we do has to be in a clear plastic baggie? and mothers must test their babies milk to ensure its not liquid explosives. They also tell us Tony Blair KNEW about the plot before he went to the Barbados. We will wait to see what our heroes will do to save us... give them a wee while and general public will be soo scared out of their wits they will be behind them to go get the bad guy. Same MO..everytime.

It's called coercion and I think from the information I've researched we can probably expect "real" terror attacks in the next two months.. a psyop not conducted by terrorists but by our own governments. It would hardly be the first time and won't be the last? So, buckle up the roads gettin' bumpy.

sj, you have your finger on the pulse of the nation - shame you left your gloves on!!

Dreadnought
10-Aug-06, 21:08
With Tony Blair and New Labour taking a real beating at the moment over their waste of our troops' lives in Iraq and Afghanistan, Blair personally getting a pasting over his refusal to condemn the Israeli invasion and annihilation of Lebanon, and with his incompetent snout-in-the-trough deputy leader, two-jags Prescott currently at the helm of government, how very, very convenient that we suddenly have a 'terror' alert to take the attention away from them..
If this was the first time such a coincidence had happened I would think, 'Oh well' but this isn't the first time. It happens almost every time Blair and New Labour are in bother.

sjwahwah
10-Aug-06, 21:09
sj, you have your finger on the pulse of the nation - shame you left your gloves on!!

mmuuuuhahahaha[lol]

MadPict
10-Aug-06, 21:16
I formed the opinion that this was an unlawful killing.


You formed an opinion based on eye witness accounts from witnesses who were probably traumatised at the sight of someone being shot in front of them. This is enough to distort their perception of what happened.

Do you honestly believe that British police officers enjoy the prospect of shooting someone? They are not soldiers. When they join up their remit is not to train to kill - it is to protect life and property with nothing more than a baton and a pair of handcuffs and their ability to diffuse a situation by talking.
They may specialise into firearms - but all along they are well aware that in the event of them actually shooting someone they could be faced with serious charges.
They train in all aspects of firearms incidents but as with many occupations training can only prepare you for so much. The remainder has to come from the individual.
These officers were under pressure after 7/7. They had the possible threat of yet another bombing. They were out of touch as the incident unfolded and went underground. They were basically left with the decision to act as they did and take someones life or not act and watch as a train could have been blown apart.
I don't think you could even begin to understand what was rushing through their minds as they entered that carriage.....



and no I have zero, zip, zilch, expertise of security services... nor have I ever served in the armed forces. But, you don't need to be to see what's going on.


Glad we have cleared that up - I guess reading Bravo Two Zero is all you need to know to have an intimate working knowledge of how the police and security services work.....

pultneytooner
10-Aug-06, 21:17
Maybe better if we try to solve the problem than go all john wayne like.
Let's address the issues of why certain mulsims feel the need to kill innocents to get some percieved message across.

MadPict
10-Aug-06, 21:20
Last month we had the two minute silence to remember the victims of the 7/7 London bombings. Very commendable. But where are the silences for the thousands of innocent Iraqis killed by suicide bombers?


Hmm, that quote sounds familiar. Oh yeah I heard it from a Muslim on TV the other night.....

Was that your 15 minutes of fame?.........

sjwahwah
10-Aug-06, 21:23
who cares who said it... dreadnoughts right!

Cedric Farthsbottom III
10-Aug-06, 21:25
It could have been 9 Lockerbies in one day.Thankfully it didnae happen.I honestly dinnae understand the minds of folk.PURE EVIL thats wit it is!!!

MadPict
10-Aug-06, 21:26
I personaly wouldn't need to know how the s.a.s work, (although Ido), to know that they are just political puppets the same as all our armed forces.

Ooooo, "(although Ido)" - leave that hanging in the forum air...

...or did you work for Scandanavian Air?.....

j4bberw0ck
10-Aug-06, 21:30
Ooooo, "(although Ido)" - leave that hanging in the forum air...

Ooooh 'eck, careful, MadPict - he might have a droopy 1970's moustache and some tattoos [lol]

MadPict
10-Aug-06, 21:33
Pretty derogatory post but hey, I can handle that.
I have studied their methods, or at least what is available to study.
If you find fault with that then that is your prerogative.

Not meant to be derogatory. Sorry. Kind of humour along the lines of "If I told you I'd have to kill you...."
I am guilty of failing to spot 'humour' today so I guess that evens things up...

You've studied their methods ? Fair enough. Then you've read what you are allowed to read ;)

Dreadnought
10-Aug-06, 21:35
Isn't this thread wrongly named? there have been NO terror attacks today. Just an alledged foiling of an alledged terror plot.

Maybe this thread should have been called the 'hysterical tabloid knee-jerk reaction thread'. :roll:

sjwahwah
10-Aug-06, 21:37
apparently one is "imminent" though.:roll:

pultneytooner
10-Aug-06, 21:40
apparently one is "imminent" though.:roll:
Apparently the good DR Reid thinks you should lose more of your civil liberties.

Dreadnought
10-Aug-06, 21:40
apparently one is "imminent" though.:roll:

There's always an 'imminent' threat, whenever Blair's danglies are in the frying pan.

sjwahwah
10-Aug-06, 21:42
LMAO:lol::lol:.....

MadPict
10-Aug-06, 21:46
Well, pardon me if I meant my post to sound like I had any other knowledge of their methods bar what I have studied but they are still political puppets no mater how good they are.

Well to be honest the armed services are 'puppets' of any government unless they have taken over in a Military coup. They are answerable to their leaders who in turn are answerable to the leaders.

But as 'puppets' they have defended this nation and the free world for many years and I certainly would not wish to belittle their sacrifices by tagging them as such.



So if you don't wish to be a puppet don't sign up...;)

Dreadnought
10-Aug-06, 21:52
Lions led by donkeys.

pultneytooner
10-Aug-06, 21:55
Lions led by donkeys.
Indeed.........

j4bberw0ck
10-Aug-06, 22:01
Another eedgit, well what can I say?
The guy with the droopy moustache IF i FIGURE RIGHTLY WHO YOU ARE TYPING ABOUT WAS AN INTEGRAL PART OF THE OPERATION IN THE IRANIAN EMBASSY.
Very good. 100% for observation. And I wasn't even talking about Margaret Thatcher! Add the photos of McNab in Bravo Two Zero, and various other photos allegedly of SAS troopers, too. My, you've sharp eyes, grandma.


oR WAS THAT SOME SEVENTIES ADULT FILM YOU WATCHED?
NOT SURE WHY YOU'RE SHOUTING, Pultneytooner. Agitated? Perhaps......... oh, I see now! Sorry if I blew the cover you've been cultivating for years. It was completely inadvertent. You'll have time to reflect and plot revenge, though, as you do your 20 mile yomp with a 190lb pack over Ben Bhraggie, sharp at 0400 tomorrow :lol:

unicorn
10-Aug-06, 22:06
Just as another point of thought if Tony Blair knew about this threat why did he still go on holiday when he should be here as the leader of our country?

sjwahwah
10-Aug-06, 22:10
that's what I wanna know sister... apparently he and Bush spoke about it as early as Sunday.

pultneytooner
10-Aug-06, 22:10
Very good. 100% for observation. And I wasn't even talking about Margaret Thatcher! Add the photos of McNab in Bravo Two Zero, and various other photos allegedly of SAS troopers, too. My, you've sharp eyes, grandma.


NOT SURE WHY YOU'RE SHOUTING, Pultneytooner. Agitated? Perhaps......... oh, I see now! Sorry if I blew the cover you've been cultivating for years. It was completely inadvertent. You'll have time to reflect and plot revenge, though, as you do your 20 mile yomp with a 190lb pack over Ben Bhraggie, sharp at 0400 tomorrow :lol:
Mcnab by all accounts is an idiot, the guy with the 70's moustache is a hero, you go figure.
I have sharper eyes than you seem to have.

j4bberw0ck
10-Aug-06, 22:13
Because the threat has been around for years, and because good managers delegate responsibility. Who cares if he's in Barbados? Or Timbuctoo? He's got 21st century communications even to the bunch of, er, politicians, who comprise his Cabinet. He doesn't take the decisions anyway; the Civil Service and the security services are doing that.

pultneytooner
10-Aug-06, 22:13
Just as another point of thought if Tony Blair knew about this threat why did he still go on holiday when he should be here as the leader of our country? That's because he is an idiot, the biggest crisis for years and he goes on holiday, what an imbecile.

j4bberw0ck
10-Aug-06, 22:20
I have sharper eyes than you seem to have.
Maybe. But a fraction of the sense of humour. Never mind.........

sjwahwah / unicorn, you don't really think that any security threat such as dictated the events of today would come into existence within the span of a couple of days, do you? Why would it be unreasonable for intelligence services who were actually doing their jobs for once to have known about the planning of such a large and complex operation many weeks ago? And if there was at that time no specific timing data, why would Blair NOT go off on holiday (believe me, I'm no fan of his). And even if there was, there's an important element of "business as usual" to be considered. If you freeze everything every time some ayatollah says "boo!", we'd get nowhere..........

unicorn
10-Aug-06, 22:25
I just think he should be here in person when such a large amount of people have been concerned by todays press reports, maybe it's unrealistic to think this way but people like to see their leader at work when the chips are down.

j4bberw0ck
10-Aug-06, 22:32
Sorry, j4bberwock, but on a serious matter my sense of humour goes, awol, sorry once again.

OK, it's serious, but let's for heaven's sake keep a sense of proportion. Wasn't it supposed to have been a sense of humour that kept the country alive through the early years of WW2? Oh, and please don't apologise.

Unicorn, you're right of course, and maybe himself'll come floating back from warmer climes. Or maybe he's just happy that dear old Gordon Brown is really the man - and all without an election, too :eek:

pultneytooner
10-Aug-06, 22:35
OK, it's serious, but let's for heaven's sake keep a sense of proportion. Wasn't it supposed to have been a sense of humour that kept the country alive through the early years of WW2? Oh, and please don't apologise.

Unicorn, you're right of course, and maybe himself'll come floating back from warmer climes. Or maybe he's just happy that dear old Gordon Brown is really the man - and all without an election, too :eek:
By the sound of it you are every bit a s ticked of that our so-called leader is a way sunning himself.

j4bberw0ck
10-Aug-06, 22:56
By the sound of it you are every bit a s ticked of that our so-called leader is a way sunning himself.

Personally, I despise him and all he stands for. But it still doesn't mean that he has to be here. Nice to have, maybe, but that fixed rictus grin and glittery eyes make him look as though as he's just been disinterred and given a quick blast of make-up.

Delegation is the art of management.

pultneytooner
10-Aug-06, 22:59
Personally, I despise him and all he stands for. But it still doesn't mean that he has to be here. Nice to have, maybe, but that fixed rictus grin and glittery eyes make him look as though as he's just been disinterred and given a quick blast of make-up.

Delegation is the art of management. Delegation is the art of management but not when you are the 'leader' of one of the most advanced nations on earth.

sjwahwah
10-Aug-06, 23:07
Maybe. But a fraction of the sense of humour. Never mind.........

sjwahwah / unicorn, you don't really think that any security threat such as dictated the events of today would come into existence within the span of a couple of days, do you? Why would it be unreasonable for intelligence services who were actually doing their jobs for once to have known about the planning of such a large and complex operation many weeks ago? And if there was at that time no specific timing data, why would Blair NOT go off on holiday (believe me, I'm no fan of his). And even if there was, there's an important element of "business as usual" to be considered. If you freeze everything every time some ayatollah says "boo!", we'd get nowhere..........

Not when one of the junior ministers has stepped down in protest to the aiding and abetting of Israel... and other sections of the gov. are up in arms about foreign policy and he knew there was a major bust about to happen?? And when he should be trying to sort something out with the massacre going down in the Middle East.

I think I'll just duck out and hit the beach kids! :confused:confused

pultneytooner
10-Aug-06, 23:10
Not when one of the junior ministers has stepped down in protest to the aiding and abetting of Israel... and other sections of the gov. are up in arms about foreign policy and he knew there was a major bust about to happen?? And when he should be trying to sort something out with the massacre going down in the Middle East.

I think I'll just duck out and hit the beach kids! :confused:confused Even if he can't do anything he should be at least trying!! !!!

sjwahwah
10-Aug-06, 23:14
agreed........

willowbankbear
10-Aug-06, 23:18
If those lot in the middle east would ever stop fighting & let the poor guy hav a holiday,

bigpete
11-Aug-06, 07:45
Kept reading in the forum "how do we know they areBritish Muslims?
Well here 'tiz:

'Air plot' suspects: Names released

The assets of 19 people held on suspicion of plotting to blow up passenger planes have been frozen. Their details appeared on the Bank of England's website as:
ALI, Abdula, Ahmed
Date of birth (DOB): 10/10/1980
Address: Walthamstow, London, E17
ALI, Cossor
DOB: 04/12/1982
Address: Walthamstow, London, E17
ALI, Shazad, Khuram
DOB: 11/06/1979
Address: High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire
HUSSAIN, Nabeel
DOB: 10/03/1984
Address: London, E4
HUSSAIN, Tanvir
DOB: 21/02/1981
Address: Leyton, London, E10
HUSSAIN, Umair
DOB: 09/10/1981
Address: London, E14
ISLAM, Umar
DOB: 23/04/1978
Address: High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire
KAYANI, Waseem
DOB: 28/04/1977
Address: High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire
KHAN, Assan, Abdullah
DOB: 24/10/1984
Address: London, E17
KHAN, Waheed, Arafat
DOB: 18/05/1981
Address: London, E17
KHATIB, Osman, Adam
DOB: 07/12/1986
Address: London, E17
PATEL, Abdul, Muneem
DOB: 17/04/1989
Address: London, E5
RAUF, Tayib
DOB: 26/04/1984
Address: Birmingham
SADDIQUE, Muhammed, Usman
DOB: 23/04/1982
Address: Walthamstow, London, E17
SARWAR, Assad
DOB: 24/05/1980
Address: High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire
SAVANT, Ibrahim
DOB: 19/12/1980
Address: London, E17
TARIQ, Amin, Asmin
DOB: 07/06/1983
Address: Walthamstow, London, E17
UDDIN, Shamin, Mohammed
DOB: 22/11/1970
Address: Stoke Newington, London ZAMAN, Waheed
DOB: 27/05/1984
Address: London, E17

j4bberw0ck
11-Aug-06, 08:19
Delegation is the art of management but not when you are the 'leader' of one of the most advanced nations on earth.

Hehehehehehe....... now we're expert in running countries as well as Special Forces, huh?

katarina
11-Aug-06, 08:52
I just think he should be here in person when such a large amount of people have been concerned by todays press reports, maybe it's unrealistic to think this way but people like to see their leader at work when the chips are down.

I don't suppose he knew exactly when the dirt would hit the fan so to speak. Maybe it just happened sooner than expected.

golach
11-Aug-06, 09:33
Just as another point of thought if Tony Blair knew about this threat why did he still go on holiday when he should be here as the leader of our country?

I see no need for Tony Blair to be sitting in 10 Downing St at this moment, with todays communication systems he will be in touch, and any way what could he do about it or the Middle East crisis....he is not Superman, he is just a politician that we elected into parliament.

pultneytooner
11-Aug-06, 09:45
Hehehehehehe....... now we're expert in running countries as well as Special Forces, huh? Everyone is entitled to be stupid but you're abusing the privilegehttp://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/voltarol/lame.gif

unicorn
11-Aug-06, 09:51
Maybe so but I think a show of face would have been nice !!

Blazing Sporrans
11-Aug-06, 15:15
This is what happens when a few hours pass and debate has been flying around this thread about Tony's hols.... I think I've read somewhere that the security services have been aware about this cell or this plot since last December, however the raids were triggered by something said in a phonecall received by one of this group within the 24 hour window preceding said raids. In a modern world and with modern and secure communications, why on earth should Tony be here in the UK? I'm personally happier for him to remain in the Caribbean. Let's face it, he isn't going to fly home to instruct everyone given his counter-terrorist expertise. He is after all an average lawyer and an average politician (now more than ever I mourn the passing of John Smith)! He is going to let those experts who have presumably developed a plan covering this scenario implement that plan and all that takes is a phone call saying "It's a go". Does it matter whether that phone call comes from No.10 or the Caribbean? Not to me it doesn't. And the government has to be prepared to operate without him anyway, so why the fuss?

Going back to post #95 by MadPict, I have to say that you couldn't have hit the nail more squarely on the head.

scotsboy
11-Aug-06, 17:24
Of course if the airports had up to the date screening equipment none of these delays would have to have taken place…….maybe the fact that the available equipment (and it has been available for probably 5 years or more) costs four times more than current screening equipments has something to do with it.

So it ain't the terrorists fault at all - its the governments.

MadPict
11-Aug-06, 17:38
Of course if the airports had up to the date screening equipment none of these delays would have to have taken place…….maybe the fact that the available equipment (and it has been available for probably 5 years or more) costs four times more than current screening equipments has something to do with it.

So it ain't the terrorists fault at all - its the governments.

Surely the responsibility for the equipment used in the airports is down to the BAA not the Govt.
And if they have to buy up-to-date screening equipment then the costs of tickets will rise to cover the cost?

scotsboy
11-Aug-06, 17:58
I am not sure - I would have thought the overriding responsibility was that of the Government....revenue at airports can be taken from many sources, I doubt very much if a scanner which costs only four times the cost of those currently in use would increase air fares.

canuck
11-Aug-06, 18:02
Kept reading in the forum "how do we know they areBritish Muslims?
Well here 'tiz:

'Air plot' suspects: Names released



A person's name does not make her/him a Muslim, a Christian or an atheist.



Of course if the airports had up to the date screening equipment none of these delays would have to have taken place…….maybe the fact that the available equipment (and it has been available for probably 5 years or more) costs four times more than current screening equipments has something to do with it.

So it ain't the terrorists fault at all - its the governments.

Are we missing one of those tongue-in-cheek smiley faces here?

Are you suggesting that criminal activity is allowable if the government doesn't have the appropriate screening devices in place? Cuz that's how I am reading your statement.

Gleber2
11-Aug-06, 18:10
Are you suggesting that criminal activity is allowable if the government doesn't have the appropriate screening devices in place? Cuz that's how I am reading your statement.

Can ye no see he's chist chokin( I hope)

scotsboy
11-Aug-06, 18:13
I don't know ho til, do eh smileys!!

But actually I think the fact these people have to wait is criminal - and avoidable!!

JAWS
11-Aug-06, 23:44
The whole story couldn’t have come at a better time. At least we are being spared the details of the unseemly back-stabbing and blood-letting amongst the comradely crowd at the SSP. At least they will be relegated to where they really belongs, the bottom of the fifth column of page19 in Militant.
Or does it hide behind another name these days? The constant changes of alias gets so confusing.

Who cares who is on holiday and who isn’t. Politicos spend enough time trying to grab the headlines. Sometimes I think it would be better if they all took eleven and half months holiday a year.
A fortnight would give them enough time to deal with important things without giving them time to invent things to do so as to appear indispensable.
The truth is that they are like comedians except in their case they are only as good as the last set of votes they got.

Once all the hard work had been done by others, the Politicians are now on the front row trying to make people believe it was all their doing and they have prevented a disaster.
But then again, it’s about the only thing they are good at!
.

percy toboggan
12-Aug-06, 00:24
I need to learn more about muslims and did a google search 'befriend a muslim' Interesting.

I think those arrested were all followers of Islam, however this is not yet a crime, nor should it be. However, the majority of these men must be convicted or the Police & M.I 5 will be totally discredited this time.They cannot keep fouling up.

Meanwhile, did you see John Prescott's broadcast tonight?He looked totally false and insincere. He bordered on the flippant. This man is either close to the edge of a personal crisis OR he really believes himself as the chosen one. The country has sunk to new lows recently. in terms of the calibre of its politicians: we have plumbed a new nadir.

changilass
12-Aug-06, 00:49
Once all the hard work had been done by others, the Politicians are now on the front row trying to make people believe it was all their doing and they have prevented a disaster.
But then again, it’s about the only thing they are good at!
.


Ain't that true of all bosses thought:lol:

badger
12-Aug-06, 10:34
Yet again this morning on radio we had a Government minister responding to the point many people are making that it is Government policy which is alienating so many Muslims and increasing the danger we are in. He said nothing, absolutely nothing, justifies these terrorist attacks. Agreed. However - pressed again about the effect of the Iraq war, which we subsequently learned was not justified (at least not on the grounds we were told) he repeated the usual response that it was nevertheless justified because Iraq was a danger to our security. The invasion of Iraq was one of the greatest terrorist outrages of modern times killing hundreds of civilians at the time (Shock and Awe) and countless thousands since. Do I detect some double standards here? Nothing justifies terrorist bombers but we were justified in mass bombing.


Do these people even listen to what they are saying? What is the difference, except that so far no terrorist has managed to kill as many people as Bush/Blair – yet?

MadPict
12-Aug-06, 11:09
and countless thousands since.

And the 1000's a month are being killed by who?

Other Muslims.....

pultneytooner
12-Aug-06, 11:14
Yet again this morning on radio we had a Government minister responding to the point many people are making that it is Government policy which is alienating so many Muslims and increasing the danger we are in. He said nothing, absolutely nothing, justifies these terrorist attacks. Agreed. However - pressed again about the effect of the Iraq war, which we subsequently learned was not justified (at least not on the grounds we were told) he repeated the usual response that it was nevertheless justified because Iraq was a danger to our security. The invasion of Iraq was one of the greatest terrorist outrages of modern times killing hundreds of civilians at the time (Shock and Awe) and countless thousands since. Do I detect some double standards here? Nothing justifies terrorist bombers but we were justified in mass bombing.


Do these people even listen to what they are saying? What is the difference, except that so far no terrorist has managed to kill as many people as Bush/Blair – yet?
You have an idiot like blair following a warmongerer suffering from wet-brain, what do you expect?

bigpete
12-Aug-06, 11:22
re canuck; "A person's name does not make her/him a Muslim, a Christian or an atheist. " - never said a person's name does not make them muslim, what I pasted was just part of it - obviously(?) you've now seen the interviews with the friends and family of these people - not heard one of 'em to say "he was a jolly nice chap, went to the Chapel every Sunday".. are you saying these are not muslims or was it just being pedantic?
Myself I'm a humanist and me name's Peter ('Christian' name) so stop nit-picking canuck.

MadPict
12-Aug-06, 12:04
While the guilt or innocence of those arrested is still to be determined I have to wonder what will occur if they turn out to be guilty - neighbours of many when interviewed have stated they are nice people, saying hello as they pass in the street or chatting when using local shops etc.
Well of course they are - they don't wish to draw attention to themselves by being horrible or wearing T-shirts with "Suicide Bomber" on the front or sit in the park reading "What Explosive & Detonator".
Terrorist cells blend in to the community and certainly do their utmost to not be detected.



Alternatives to "Christian Name" -
Given Name
First Name
Forename

squidge
12-Aug-06, 12:33
I know i know sanctimonious :) but what takes a "nice lad, friendly" etcm and makes them a potential terrorist????

Most muslim families arent much different that mine or yours - they pray a bit more maybe and wear different clothes but they send their children to school, they try to teach them right from wrong and they work hard to give them a good life. These men probably had black white and asian friends, they probably had jobs and lives,what is it that makes them want to do this. Fanatacism is scary but what makes a person open to their teaching. For most of us we would start to listen but then we would realise they were talking utter tosh and walk. We would be horrified and appalled at the suggestion of taking this sort of action. These guys clearly were susceptible to it - why?

MadPict
12-Aug-06, 12:57
Brainwashing?

You subject a person to enough of it and they will kill their own mother.

I feel that religion is just a form of brainwashing. You are made to follow the word of one man and all else is irrelevant. Whip up enough anger about how disenfranchised you are or downtrodden or how you should be fighting Infidels because they have invaded another country and you start to create the angry young men.

You try and argue with fundamentalist christians and their views can be as extreme as radical Islamists.

What makes a 'christian' pro-lifer go and murder doctors involved in abortion clinics?

Take for example the crecent attempt in the US to give the loonies who believe in "intelligent design" the right to use science classes to teach that intelligent design is an alternative to evolution. Some claim that the world did not exist before 4000 years ago!

I think that the communities where these angry young men live need to look at themselves for part of the answer - it is not all the fault of modern Britain....

Blazing Sporrans
12-Aug-06, 13:03
The notion that certain elements of young Muslim society are susceptible to being indoctrinated into terrorist activity is probably no harder to understand than young Irish men from either side of the sectarian divide being indoctrinated into terrorist activity and killing one another. The only difference I can see is that these particular Muslims have their faith twisted to the belief that self-sacrifice is a holy end which sees them instantly transported to paradise.

bingo1
12-Aug-06, 13:11
I think that there is a difference, the irish are fighting for freedom although i dont agree with the violence. The muslums or who ever they are british or not have no loyalties to britain!!! Why are they being allowed to live in this country? When not all but most of them hate us and think that killing us will make them go to paridise!! Ha. My brother inlaw was provoked by a pakistani man and for calling him a paki got 3 month in the jail!!! In my eyes things are terribly wrong in this country!!!!:confused

Blazing Sporrans
12-Aug-06, 13:22
I think that there is a difference, the irish are fighting for freedom although i dont agree with the violence. The muslums or who ever they are british or not have no loyalties to britain!!! Why are they being allowed to live in this country? When not all but most of them hate us and think that killing us will make them go to paridise!! Ha. My brother inlaw was provoked by a pakistani man and for calling him a paki got 3 month in the jail!!! In my eyes things are terribly wrong in this country!!!!:confused
There are several things wrong with this post IMHO...
1) Loyalist Irishmen were not fighting for freedom from UK rule
2) I certainly don't believe that most of them hate us. It's that type of pathetic comment that only serves to engender more people of different ethnicities to be less tolerant towards the average white British christian (if there is such a creature)
3) I think your brother-in-law must have done something more than simply call someone a paki to get 3 months in jail. Either there were other factors accompanying this comment, such as violence or threats of violence, or he must have a previous record of criminality to result in the sentence you say was given. However I feel we're unlikely to get the whole truth from you [disgust]

squidge
12-Aug-06, 13:29
There are several things wrong with this post IMHO...
1) Loyalist Irishmen were not fighting for freedom from UK rule
2) I certainly don't believe that most of them hate us. It's that type of pathetic comment that only serves to engender more people of different ethnicities to be less tolerant towards the average white British christian (if there is such a creature)
3) I think your brother-in-law must have done something more than simply call someone a paki to get 3 months in jail. Either there were other factors accompanying this comment, such as violence or threats of violence, or he must have a previous record of criminality to result in the sentence you say was given. However I feel we're unlikely to get the whole truth from you [disgust]

I agree with you Blazing Sporrans- most muslims dont hate us at all and thats borne out time and time again by surveys and the like despite what some newspapers and tabloid telly programmes want us to beleive.

squidge
12-Aug-06, 13:34
I think that the communities where these angry young men live need to look at themselves for part of the answer - it is not all the fault of modern Britain....

I think you are absolutely right but within that i would add the wider communities not simply the islamic community. Opportunitities for all and minimising alienation for any excluded group is important. Working with the islamic community WITHIN a wider community plan which includes housing and education and employment and tons of other things is important rather than simply dealing with this as an islamic issue

Dreadnought
12-Aug-06, 13:35
Aw who cares! It's France, Italy, Sri Lanka, Koreea we need to worry about...

...according to the man in the street anyway (http://www.boreme.com//boreme/funny-2005/usa-invade-p1.php).;)

Blazing Sporrans
12-Aug-06, 13:41
Aw who cares! It's France, Italy, Sri Lanka, Koreea we need to worry about...
That's so scary it's almost not funny - but it is in a twisted way! How can something so mad be so amusing? I'm morally confused beyond belief!!! :eek:

sjwahwah
12-Aug-06, 15:16
Brainwashing?

You subject a person to enough of it and they will kill their own mother.

I feel that religion is just a form of brainwashing. You are made to follow the word of one man and all else is irrelevant. Whip up enough anger about how disenfranchised you are or downtrodden or how you should be fighting Infidels because they have invaded another country and you start to create the angry young men.

You try and argue with fundamentalist christians and their views can be as extreme as radical Islamists.

What makes a 'christian' pro-lifer go and murder doctors involved in abortion clinics?

Take for example the crecent attempt in the US to give the loonies who believe in "intelligent design" the right to use science classes to teach that intelligent design is an alternative to evolution. Some claim that the world did not exist before 4000 years ago!

I think that the communities where these angry young men live need to look at themselves for part of the answer - it is not all the fault of modern Britain....
well, how strange madpict for us to agree. multi-generational religious indoctrination is a cracker of a technique and it works a treat and has done so for thousands of years. same as how they selectively choose multi-generational abused, alienated, downtrodden young people to serve in the special forces and covert intelligence operations... heads malleable at the snap of the fingers with trauma based mind control (dissociative identity disorder previously multiple personality disorder)... perfected through spin offs of Project Paperclip and MK Ultra. Note dates of full criminalisation in the US of cannabis (UK followed suit 10 years later) and it's "coincidence" of timings with MK Ultra drug experiments... it's not an accident. Nor is the fact that there are around 30 million prescriptions written for anti-depressants in this country... so, much so.. it is in the drinking water?? And don't forget about our nations most vulnerable minds...our children. Between 2000 and 2002 there was a 68% rise in prescriptions for drugs either to stimulate or tranquilise the minds of our children. I'd be scared to see the more recent figures!

And TV.. my word... subliminal advertising ("hidden persuaders") and messaging and the use of cognitive dissonance, fearmongering, suggestion and coercion techniques for mind control of the masses.

I don't know whos fault it is madpict but, whoevers it is is doing a fine job of it.

People here can blame the British Muslims for being "angry" and non-muslim haters but, the fact of the matter is RACISM is RIFE in this country. Some of the things I've seen in the past years in Edinburgh.... one of my best mates is Nigerian/Scottish, I've lost count of the times we've been spat upon in the street by people in passing cars, teenage and early 20's males and wait for it... men in business suits sitting in outside drinking areas... one guy even tried to hit him with a car! My mate says it's alot worse NOW than it was growing up in 1960's & 70's Dundee as a young black male. Last time we were in Dundee a wee 5-6 year old boy told my husband who was with our daughter at the play park that his dog was called Ralph and "dinna worry Mr. he only bites darkies & pakis?!?!" Who teaches these kids this filth??? Their parents of course. And I won't even go into the filth coming out of peoples mouth in the pub I used to work... who all were quickly ejected by myself with the slight dismay of my boss who quite fancied herself as a bit of a racist herself.[disgust]

And will we dare mention football fanaticism and sectarianism?

As far as I'm concerned it's NOT just the communities these young Muslim men live in it's this ENTIRE so called "civilised" country that needs to look at themselves and wise up a bit.

bigpete
12-Aug-06, 15:45
What on earth are you on about sjwahwah?; "same as how they selectively choose multi-generational abused, alienated, downtrodden young people to serve in the special forces and covert intelligence operations"

As you admitted earlieryou know nothing of military matters..

sjwahwah
12-Aug-06, 16:04
I said I've never been in the military... doesn't mean I don't know anything about it. My mother was an Air Force Brat... my father was in the Army.. my uncle did 3 tours in Vietnam and I know currently 9 lifelong friends fighting in Iraq does that count?:roll:

Do you think everybody in the military knows everything about the military?????

MadPict
12-Aug-06, 16:09
well, how strange madpict for us to agree.

For one second you had me.....

Then you went off into some EMF induced bout of verbal diarrhoea. You stated some where else you have no knowledge of military matters, so for you to spout "selectively choose multi-generational abused, alienated, downtrodden young people to serve in the special forces and covert intelligence operations... heads malleable at the snap of the fingers with trauma based mind control (dissociative identity disorder previously multiple personality disorder)" just goes to prove you know absolutely NOTHING about the miltary.
Maybe you need to go and read some books as opposed to sitting in front of your computer all day wasting electricity.
How does the eco warrior in you justify such a wasteful luxury?


And I won't even go into the filth coming out of peoples mouth in the pub I used to work... - but you were quite happy to sell them the substances needed to get them into that state....

And will we dare mention football fanaticism and sectarianism?

Not unless you want the thread closed....

As far as I'm concerned it's NOT just the communities these young Muslim men live in it's this ENTIRE so called "civilised" country that needs to look at themselves and wise up a bit.

Once again, on the news, a Muslim spokesman tries to justify suicide bombing as the only way these lowlifes can be heard. It's the UK's foreign policy that is to blame. It is the lack of any condemnation from Bliar against the issues in the Lebanon. It is the poverty and unemployment the young, poor, disenfranchised Muslims are suffering here in the UK to blame.

pultneytooner
12-Aug-06, 16:13
19 suspects have had their assets frozen by the Bank of England.
I thought having a bank account and earning interest was against islamic law, they can't be that fanatical then.

sjwahwah
12-Aug-06, 16:15
19 suspects have had their assets frozen by the Bank of England.
I thought having a bank account and earning interest was against islamic law, they can't be that fanatical then.
somebody ought to remind the saudis of this too!:lol:

sjwahwah
12-Aug-06, 16:23
This eco warrior embraces the right technology and one of our best weapons is communications and information... does an eco warrior constitute a cave dwelling tattooed naked man? in that case I know more about the military than you do about eco warriors as you call it! I'm reading a good book right now... called "The lost language of plants" what are you reading?

yes.. blame someone else .. tis the answer!

golach
12-Aug-06, 16:27
Once again, on the news, a Muslim spokesman tries to justify suicide bombing as the only way these lowlifes can be heard. It's the UK's foreign policy that is to blame. It is the lack of any condemnation from Bliar against the issues in the Lebanon. It is the poverty and unemployment the young, poor, disenfranchised Muslims are suffering here in the UK to blame.

Ahh the poor wee things, they are so hard done by, the answer to it all is blow yourself to bits in the name of Islam, Our Christian and Hindu and what ever religion they might be, youngsters, dont go around blowing up tube trains, because they are poor, umemployed or disenfranchised, I was brought up poor, unemployed, but never felt disenfranchised, my pals religions meant nothing to me and mine to them. In my day as a young man I helped myself by being a political activist, and I have never felt the need to take anti depressants and blow anything or anybody up, its the world of Sj and her co-horts that would make me depressed

bigpete
12-Aug-06, 16:28
Sjwahwah;

I said I've never been in the military... doesn't mean I don't know anything about it.
My mother was an Air Force Brat...
my father was in the Army..
my uncle did 3 tours in Vietnam
and I know currently 9 lifelong friends fighting in Iraq does that count?

Nope! unless you have experience of/in Special Forces I do not see how having Mum, dad, uncle and 'friends' in the forces (how come you weren't?) gives you the right to categorically state with authority: "same as how they selectively choose multi-generational abused, alienated, downtrodden young people to serve in the special forces and covert intelligence operations" Obviously you have never had any personal contact with such people - ask your 'friends' in Iraq what they think, at least they are putting their life on the line and not just spouting such naive and insulting nonsence.
Please, please elucidate why 'special forces' and those in 'covert operations' are people such as you describe, you must have experience or evidence of this?

sjwahwah
12-Aug-06, 16:32
Ahh the poor wee things, they are so hard done by, the answer to it all is blow yourself to bits in the name of Islam, Our Christian and Hindu and what ever religion they might be, youngsters, dont go around blowing up tube trains, because they are poor, umemployed or disenfranchised, I was brought up poor, unemployed, but never felt disenfranchised, my pals religions meant nothing to me and mine to them. In my day as a young man I helped myself by being a political activist, and I have never felt the need to take anti depressants and blow anything or anybody up, its the world of Sj and her co-horts that would make me depressed

is that why you choose to walk around this life with your eyes wide shut? a political activist? (is their no smiley that represents someone laughing with their mouth shut and through their nose?)[lol]

MadPict
12-Aug-06, 16:34
Please, please elucidate why 'special forces' and those in 'covert operations' are people such as you describe, you must have experience or evidence of this?

She is reading a book "The lost language of plants" - it's mentioned in Chapter 5.
[lol] [lol]

MadPict
12-Aug-06, 16:36
(is their no smiley that represents someone laughing with their mouth shut and through their nose?)


No - but the snot you're posting will do as a substitute......

sjwahwah
12-Aug-06, 16:42
Sjwahwah;

I said I've never been in the military... doesn't mean I don't know anything about it.
My mother was an Air Force Brat...
my father was in the Army..
my uncle did 3 tours in Vietnam
and I know currently 9 lifelong friends fighting in Iraq does that count?

Nope! unless you have experience of/in Special Forces I do not see how having Mum, dad, uncle and 'friends' in the forces (how come you weren't?) gives you the right to categorically state with authority: "same as how they selectively choose multi-generational abused, alienated, downtrodden young people to serve in the special forces and covert intelligence operations" Obviously you have never had any personal contact with such people - ask your 'friends' in Iraq what they think, at least they are putting their life on the line and not just spouting such naive and insulting nonsence.
Please, please elucidate why 'special forces' and those in 'covert operations' are people such as you describe, you must have experience or evidence of this?
my mum was a BRAT not in the service. And most of my friends in Iraq want to come home AND understand the farcity of the situation but, are being held against their will under the Stop Loss Program.... although there are one or two that think it's quite great "fun" and enjoy killing people. They've been made into exactly what the military want... robotic monkeys with guns and brain massages. Be all that you can be, right! one of them finally did get out though.. only after he had part of his leg ripped off and lost a huge percentage of his hearing .... you can support the troops without supporting the war bigpetey... and so can they.

and again... do you think everyone in the military knows everything about the military big pete???

sjwahwah
12-Aug-06, 16:44
No - but the snot you're posting will do as a substitute......
muuuuwaahhhhhhahahahahha[lol] keep it above the belt now![lol]

j4bberw0ck
12-Aug-06, 16:56
19 suspects have had their assets frozen by the Bank of England.
I thought having a bank account and earning interest was against islamic law, they can't be that fanatical then.
Islamic Banks operating in the UK are regulated in the UK by the BoE. Assets go wider than cash......

The real problem is that many Asians and Muslims (since, as we've tirelessly established, they're not necessarily one and the same) operate a system of money transmission where money intended for a recipient elsewhere is given to a person say here in the UK; at the other end of the transaction (say in the Far East) a relation of the person receiving the money in the UK gives the same amount to the person to whom the original sender wanted the money to go. If you see what I mean.

And there's no prohibition on Muslims investing money in property or the Stock Market.

Interest on mortgages and loans from Islamic Banks is paid in the form of a service fee or commission. Likewise interest received on cash deposits.

Even under Sharia Law, there are ways and means for avarice :lol::lol:

j4bberw0ck
12-Aug-06, 17:11
As for all the surveys of British Muslims finding that it's "British foreign policy" that's to blame, I'd like to know please why that gives them the right to blow up Tube trains and allegedly attempt to bring down airliners. In a democracy you have the right of peaceful protest and voting out the government next time round. You do not have the right to bomb people. The lesson needs to be hammered home.

And before anyone starts about Israel / UK / USA bombings, sorry peeps, that's different and not governed by the laws of any one country. It's covered by legislation approved by that well known useless talking shop, the UN. Individual countries may have laws that operate within their own boundaries but all governments have to right to decide how to commit their militaries, for good or for ill. Not liking that changes nothing.

bigpete
12-Aug-06, 17:25
SJWAHWAH:
"although there are one or two that think it's quite great "fun" and enjoy killing people. They've been made into exactly what the military want... robotic monkeys with guns and brain massages."

Do your 'friends mind being called 'robotic monkeys' - presumably this applies to your military Dad as well? I've not been long on these forums, but I can see that most of these posters are fed up with your purile postings. How can you state such drivel as above when you have no personal experience of what is faced by our armed forces? You obviously have no idea but feel you must type some total rubbish either to apease your anti-military feelings with your own family connections with the military? - gosh, girl it must be pretty frustrating, trying to dream up some burble without experience, only taking it from some rag or other.. stick to your knitting girl, maybe you'll do better at that.
I find it amusing really, there are very serious issues on this forum and your best shot is calling our special forces and military 'robotic monkeys'.. hmmm

"and again... do you think everyone in the military knows everything about the military big pete???"

Nope, but I'm sure they know one heck of a lot more than you do my girl..

Wonder if I'll get kicked off tis forum? don't mind really as fed up reading such unadultrerated nonsence of yours, when there are many others on this forum taking pains to point out factual and realistic points.. stick to it; perl one, plain one

sjwahwah
12-Aug-06, 17:38
i'm gettin' the fiddle out big pete.. call me what you will.. insult me all you will... i know what I know and learnin' new things everyday. I know you're new to the forum... but, everyone can plainly see what i wrote.. so, when you twist it around to your desires everyone can see that too.

I'm not offended nor afraid by keyboard kung fu... no matter what you fling... and I would hope you could learn to accept others views in this weird little diverse and perverse world we dwell in as well.

bigpete
12-Aug-06, 17:54
(If I ignore sjwahwah will she go away? I understand she's got a yank pasport which now explains a lot)

anyway.. anyone seen the full page ad where Muslim MP's & Lords and community leaders blaim Britain's Foreign Policy for these moronic robots blowing themselvs up?..

Right. Now have a look at a few extremist websites and you will find that already they are saying; "look we are right, British muslim leaders understand us" it was a VERY dangerous and short-sighted thing to do; publishing their newspaper ad; it won't help.

Dreadnought
12-Aug-06, 17:59
A foreign policy which includes invading sovereign nations, on a lie is wrong. Tony Blair became a war criminal the moment he agreed to tag along on Operation Iraqi Liberation.

sjwahwah
12-Aug-06, 18:13
(If I ignore sjwahwah will she go away? I understand she's got a yank pasport which now explains a lot)

anyway.. anyone seen the full page ad where Muslim MP's & Lords and community leaders blaim Britain's Foreign Policy for these moronic robots blowing themselvs up?..

Right. Now have a look at a few extremist websites and you will find that already they are saying; "look we are right, British muslim leaders understand us" it was a VERY dangerous and short-sighted thing to do; publishing their newspaper ad; it won't help.

did you only figure that out at that point? how many Brits uncles went to Vietnam....

thank you for your some kind of ism.

sjwahwah
12-Aug-06, 18:15
A foreign policy which includes invading sovereign nations, on a lie is wrong. Tony Blair became a war criminal the moment he agreed to tag along on Operation Iraqi Liberation.
good on ya for pointing that out dreadnought...

bigpete
12-Aug-06, 18:33
sjwahwahhhh:

"did you only figure that [being a yank] out at that point? how many Brits uncles went to Vietnam...."

Well actually quite a few gal, Australian and New Zealand forces and there were UK special forces there too.. how do I know?, nope did not read about it, I was in Singapore in the 60's and knew quite a few 'Brits' whose folks were in Vietnam.. Most of whom refused to work with 'your lot' as they were too blinking dangerous; aka 'friendly fire'.
As the old adage ref WWII: When the British fired, the Germans kept theirr heads down, when the Germans fired the British kept their heads down, and when the yanks fired they ALL kept their heads down'..
Fancy you not knowing Aussie and Kiwi + Brits were in Vietnam? Hmm.. reference my last..

scotsboy
12-Aug-06, 18:34
I have a Saudi bank account, and I have to go to the bank every 6 months or so with my ID and verification of who I am, where I work, where I live etc - otherwise the account is frozen.

sjwahwah
12-Aug-06, 19:41
really scotsboy? why do they do that?

golach
12-Aug-06, 20:42
This eco warrior embraces the right technology and one of our best weapons is communications and information... does an eco warrior constitute a cave dwelling tattooed naked man? in that case I know more about the military than you do about eco warriors as you call it! I'm reading a good book right now... called "The lost language of plants" what are you reading?yes.. blame someone else .. tis the answer!
An Eco warrior????? your about as green as a rangers football shirt

sjwahwah
13-Aug-06, 16:58
I didn't call myself an eco-warrior mad pict did.. I merely entertained it. I'm not an environmentalist... nor what I would call an "eco-warrior"... but, nice football analogies.. creative Golach.:D

sjwahwah
13-Aug-06, 18:13
big pete... just when everyone in the military thought they knew everything about the military... or for those who weren't in the military want to delve for information the best place to start is "declassified documents"... these can be found on the internet.. some through the Library of Congress and all from the Freedom of Information Act... The first one, I first read quite a few years back and I think you will find any major "terrorist" event, plot, foiled plot, false flag operations that have happened .. the mind will always be reminded to refer back to this declassified document as it is obvious what the mindset of the military manipulators are... this document was written in March of 1962.

OPERATION NORTHWOODS
Subject: Justification for the US Military Intervention in
Cuba.

13 March 1962
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/northwoods.pdf (http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/news/20010430/northwoods.pdf)

I say how many Brits uncles served in Vietnam? I would have been quite unique to have a British uncle serve anywhere in Vietnam as there were at best 2-3000 most of whom were from the Special Forces getting training in "the real thing" for a very brief period of time.. and no casualties as far as I'm aware... a bit different from over half a million deployed... 58,500 KIA or MIA and 153,000 injured over a 10 year period I would think.

Speaking of the Vietnam War... we could also look at this document and see how The Gulf of Tonkin incident was pulled out of the same hat. and the list goes on...

sjwahwah
13-Aug-06, 18:17
and an excerpt....

OPERATION NORTHWOODS

1. Since it would seem desirable to use legitimate
provocation as the basis for US military intervention in Cuba
a cover and deception plan. to include requisite preliminary
actions such as has been developed in response to Task 33 c,
could be executed as an initial effort to provode Cuban
reactions. Harassment plus deceptive actions to convince the
Cubans of imminent invasion would be emphasized. Our military
posture throughout execution of the plan will allow a rapid
change from exercise to intervention if Cuban responses justifies.

2. A series of well coordinated incidents will be planned
to take place in and around Guantanamo to give genuine
appearance of being done by hostile Cuban forces.

a. Incidents to establish a credible attack (not in
chronilogical order):

(1) Start rumors (many). Use clandestine radio.
(2) Land friendly Cubans in uniform "over-the-fence"
to stage attack on the base.
(3) Capture Cuban (friendly) sabateurs inside the
base.
(4) Start riots near the entrance to the base (friendly
Cubans).
(5) Blow up ammunition inside the base; start fires.
(6) Burn aircraft on airbase (sabatage).
(7) Lob morter shells from outside of base into base.
Some damage to installations.
(8) Capture assault teams approaching from the sea
of vicinity of Guantanamo City.
(9) Capture militia group which storms the base.
(10) Sabotage ship in harbor; large fires -- napthalene.
(11) Sink ship near harbor entrance. Conduct funerals
for mock-victims (may be lieu of (10)).

b. United States would respond by executing offensive
operations to secure water and power supplies, destroying
artillery and mortar emplacements which threaten the base.

c. Commence large scale United States military operations.

3. A "Remember the Maine" incident could be arranged in
several forms:

a. We could blow up a US ship in Guantanamo Bay and
blame Cuba.

b. We could blow up a drone (unmannded) vessel anywhere
in the Cuban waters. We could arrange to cause such incident
in the vicinity of Havana or Santiago as a spectacular result
of Cuban attack from the air or sea, or both. The presense
of Cuban planes or ships merely investigating the intent of
the vessel could be fairly compelling evidence that the ship
was taken under attack. The nearness to Havana or Santiago
would add credibility especially to those people that might
have heard the blast or have seen the fire. The US could
follow with an air/sea rescue operation covered by US
fighters to "evacuate" remaining members of the non-existant
crew. Casualty lists in US newspapers would cause a helpful
wave of national indignation.

4. We could develop a Communist Cuba terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Flordia cities and even in Washington.

The terror campaign could be pointed at Cuban refugees seeking haven in the United States. We could sink a boatload of Cubansenroute to Florida (real or simulated). We could foster attemptson lives of Cuban refugees in the United States even to theextent of wounding in instances to be widely publicized.
Exploding a few plastic bombs in carefully chosen spots, the
arrest of Cuban agents and the release of prepared documents
substantiating Cuban involvement also would be helpful in
projecting the idea of an irresponsible government.

5. A "Cuban-based, Castro-supported" filibuster could be
simulated against a neighboring Caribbean nation (in the vein
of the 14th of June invasion of the Dominican Republic). We
know that Castro is backing subversive efforts clandestinely
against Haiti, Dominican Republic, Guatemala, and Nicaragua at
present and possible others. These efforts can be magnified and
additional ones contrived for exposure. For example, advantage
can be taken of the sensitivity of the Dominican Air Force to
intrusions within their national air space. "Cuban" B-26 or
C-46 type aircraft could make cane-burning raids at night.
Soviet Bloc incidiaries could be found. This could be coupled
with "Cuban" messages to the Communist underground in the
Dominican Republic and "Cuban" shipments of arms which would
be found, or intercepted, on the beach.

6. Use of MIG type aircraft by US pilots could provide
additional provocation. Harassment of civil air, attacks on
surface shipping and destruction of US military drone aircraft
by MIG type planes would be useful as complementary actions.
An F-86 properly painted would convince air passengers that they
saw a Cuban MIG, especially if the pilot of the transport were
to announce such fact. The primary drawback to this suggestion
appears to be the security risk inherent in obtaining or modify-
ing an aircraft. However, reasonable copies of the MIG could
be purchased from US resources in about three months.



7. Hijacking attempts against civil air and surface craft
should appear to continue as harassing measures condoned by the
government of Cuba. Concurrently, genuine defections of Cuban
civil and military air and surface craft should be encouraged.

8. It is possible to create an incident which will demonstrate
convincingly that a Cuban aircraft has attacked and shot down
a chartered civil airliner enroute from the United States to
Jamaica, Guatemala, Panama or Venezuela. The destination would
be chosen only to cause the flight plan route to cross Cuba.
The passengers could be a group of college students off on a
holiday or any grouping of persons with a common interest to
support chartering a non-scheduled flight.

a. An aircraft at Eglin AFB would be painted and
numbered as an exact duplicate for a civil registered
aircraft belonging to a CIA proprietary organization in the
Miami area. At a designated time the duplicate would be
subsituted for the actual civil aircraft and would be
loaded with the selected passengers, all boarded under
carefully prepared aliases. The actual registered
aircraft would be converted to a drone.

b. Take off times of the drone aircraft and the actual
aircraft will be scheduled to allow a rendezvous south of
Florida. From the rendezvous point the passenger-carrying
aircraft will descend to minimum altitude and go directly
into an auxiliary field at Eglin AFB where arrangements will
have been made to evacuate the passengers and return the
aircraft to its original status. The drone aircraft
meanwhile will continue to fly the filed flight plan. When
over Cuba the drone will being transmitting on the inter-
national distress frequency a "MAY DAY" message stating he
is under attack by Cuban MIG aircraft. The transmission
will be interrupted by the destruction of aircraft which will
be triggered by radio signal. This will allow IACO radio
stations in the Western Hemisphere to tell the US what
has happened to the aircraft instead of the US trying to
"sell" the incident.

9. It is possible to create an incident which will make it
appear that Communist Cuban MIGs have destroyed a USAF aircraft
over international waters in an unprovoked attack.

a. Approximately 4 of 5 F-101 aircraft will be dispatched
in trail from Homestead AFB, Florida, to the vicinity of Cuba.
Their mission will be to reverse course and simulate fakir
aircraft for an air defense exercise in southern Florida.
These aircraft would conduct variations of these flights at
frequent intervals. Crews would be briefed to remain at
least 12 miles off the Cuban coast; however, they would be
required to carry live ammunition in the event that hostile
actions were taken by the Cuban MIGs.

b. On one such flight, a pre-briefed pilot would fly
tail-end Charley at considerable interval between aircraft.
While near the Cuban Island this pilot would broadcast that
he had been jumped by MIGs and was going down. No other
calls would be made. The pilot would then fly directly
west at extremely low altitude and land at a secure base, an
Eglin auxiliary. The aircraft would be met by the proper
people, quickly stored and given a new tail number. The
pilot who had performed the mission under an alias, would
resume his proper identity and return to his normal place
of business. The pilot and aircraft would then have
disappeared.

c. At precisely the same time that the aircraft was
presumably shot down a submarine or small surface craft
would disburse F-101 parts, parachute, etc., at approximately
15 to 20 miles off the Cuban coast and depart. The pilots
retuning to Homestead would have a true story as far as
they knew. Search ships and aircraft could be dispatched
and parts of aircraft found.

bigpete
13-Aug-06, 20:22
Sjwahwahonandonandon...

I say how many Brits uncles served in Vietnam? I would have been quite unique to have a British uncle serve anywhere in Vietnam as there were at best 2-3000 most of whom were from the Special Forces getting training in "the real thing" for a very brief period of time..

Hey folks won't this woman ever shut up? doesn't she go on and on and on. Mostly it's serious items on the forums but then we get this one - digging up web-based stuff, without a hint of actual personal experience, trying to post things she knows absolutly nothing about. Noticed she was posting at 2am this morning - get a life woman, might be better if you spent more time with your kid and maybe it would not kick off off going through American customs.
So you're saying these quote: "2-3,000" Special forces did not have any nephews or nieces?, 'fraid you're wrong (again). Additionally, they were not 'getting training' for the 'real thing' gal, in actual fact they were training your lot; the Yanks. I know - from my own personel experience - that it was not 'a very brief period of time', there was in fact an exchange program between American and British special forces during Vietnam although our Government denies that special forces actuallyfought in Vietnam, but you won't find that on a website, so that's you scuppered gal.
What's next then; Cuba? another load of cut and paste, oh go away and find something original will you, stop plagiarising.. (or is that a 'z'; zee)?

Take a deep breath gal and stop rubbishing everyone elses genuine postings, without scanning the web you would not have a clue what to post..

salam alaikum (I was there too)

golach
13-Aug-06, 21:06
Sjwahwahonandonandon...

I say how many Brits uncles served in Vietnam? I would have been quite unique to have a British uncle serve anywhere in Vietnam as there were at best 2-3000 most of whom were from the Special Forces getting training in "the real thing" for a very brief period of time..

Hey folks won't this woman ever shut up? doesn't she go on and on and on. Mostly it's serious items on the forums but then we get this one - digging up web-based stuff, without a hint of actual personal experience, trying to post things she knows absolutly nothing about. Noticed she was posting at 2am this morning - get a life woman, might be better if you spent more time with your kid and maybe it would not kick off off going through American customs.
So you're saying these quote: "2-3,000" Special forces did not have any nephews or nieces?, 'fraid you're wrong (again). Additionally, they were not 'getting training' for the 'real thing' gal, in actual fact they were training your lot; the Yanks. I know - from my own personel experience - that it was not 'a very brief period of time', there was in fact an exchange program between American and British special forces during Vietnam although our Government denies that special forces actuallyfought in Vietnam, but you won't find that on a website, so that's you scuppered gal.
What's next then; Cuba? another load of cut and paste, oh go away and find something original will you, stop plagiarising.. (or is that a 'z'; zee)?

Take a deep breath gal and stop rubbishing everyone elses genuine postings, without scanning the web you would not have a clue what to post..

salam alaikum (I was there too)
Now here is a man I can understand and equate to, keep up the good work Pete, you have posted more truth in this last post that Sj and her cohorts could ever come up with

sjwahwah
13-Aug-06, 21:23
bigpete.. actually it is you going on and on and on... and 90% of what your saying is insult after insult after insult... I've tried to ask you questions about something (which pertains more to the thread than your insults do) you claim to be an expert about and you cannot answer my questions and if you cannot see relevance in one of the most famous declassified documents released from the US government about government sponsored terrorist attacks and false flag operations then you are only looking at the issue from one side which makes you many more times scuppered than anyone with an open mind... i'm simply inviting whoever cares to, to look at it from another angle.. if you don't wish to.. then simply don't... but, I hardly think it is worth your thread vandalism.

sjwahwah
13-Aug-06, 21:41
actually I did know that the special forces joined up with the US military... and it was only a brief period.. yes I did know the government does not like to acknowledge that. if I didn't learn that than how would I know the special forces were there to begin with if the government won't acknowledge they were?

I'm sure you could probably go on and on about how the UK special forces trained up the US military in Vietnam and maybe they did... but, we LOST the war remember so, will we blame it on their training? c'mon!?

sjwahwah
13-Aug-06, 22:18
White House Memo

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,,1700881,00.html

· Mr Bush told Mr Blair that the US was so worried about the failure to find hard evidence against Saddam that it thought of "flying U2 reconnaissance aircraft planes with fighter cover over Iraq, painted in UN colours". Mr Bush added: "If Saddam fired on them, he would be in breach [of UN resolutions]".
· Mr Bush even expressed the hope that a defector would be extracted from Iraq and give a "public presentation about Saddam's WMD". He is also said to have referred Mr Blair to a "small possibility" that Saddam would be "assassinated".
· Mr Blair told the US president that a second UN resolution would be an "insurance policy", providing "international cover, including with the Arabs" if anything went wrong with the military campaign, or if Saddam increased the stakes by burning oil wells, killing children, or fomenting internal divisions within Iraq.
· Mr Bush told the prime minister that he "thought it unlikely that there would be internecine warfare between the different religious and ethnic groups". Mr Blair did not demur, according to the book.
The revelation that Mr Blair had supported the US president's plans to go to war with Iraq even in the absence of a second UN resolution contrasts with the assurances the prime minister gave parliament shortly after. On February 25 2003 - three weeks after his trip to Washington - Mr Blair told the Commons that the government was giving "Saddam one further, final chance to disarm voluntarily".
He added: "Even now, today, we are offering Saddam the prospect of voluntary disarmament through the UN. I detest his regime - I hope most people do - but even now, he could save it by complying with the UN's demand. Even now, we are prepared to go the extra step to achieve disarmament peacefully."

One of our more current documents, which i think partly helps sum up the current situation and the attitude of our "leaders". In order to advance the agenda they need the people to be scared into submission and demonstrate to the people there is a " terrorist threat" and use it as an excuse to invade more and more and more nations. We are fighting the War on Terror aren't we? As far as I'm concerned we're chasing the wrong people.

We have seen the US and UK use 9/11 as a pretext for war in Afghanistan and then Iraq. And I'm sure bigpete will tell us what was attached to the "invasion plan" when we invaded Iraq and it will partly unveil why our soldiers are really over there.... cause it certainly wasn't over any WMD's. Until they get what they want there will be more fearmongering,terror attacks, freedom erosion and revocation, a widening social division, cultural friction and more war, more dead and more injured and it won't make a bloomin' bit a difference how much security is at the airport.

bigpete
13-Aug-06, 22:20
SJWAHWAH
actually I did know that the special forces joined up with the US military... and it was only a brief period..(It was much more than a 'brief' period) yes I did know the government does not like to acknowledge that. if I didn't learn that than how would I know the special forces were there to begin with if the government won't acknowledge they were? (By your usual search of the web no doubt)

I'm sure you could probably go on and on about how the UK special forces trained up the US military in Vietnam and maybe they did..(they did) . but, we LOST the war remember so, will we blame it on their training? c'mon!? (Nope, the Brits do it differently, re Malayan Emergency, not like the Yanks, who really don't have a clue on 'hearts and minds' - as I mentioned earlier gal, Kiwi and Aussie troops would not work with the yanks(which says an awful lot really?).

Anyway where is the Moderator for these forums? I came on to this platform for serious discussion, not to be berated by some silly woman who searches the web and actually - wait for it - believes everything she reads!!. I also noted light-hearted humour amongst other posters, this gal has none whatsoever, just mocks, which is a telling sign of a very insecure person - lets face it folks - she was on this forum spouting rubbish since 2am this morning; 20 hours! SJ PLEASE get out more, STOP living in this fantasy web world of yours.. Go on; force yourself off that chair, take your finger off those keys, in fact go and get a life.

Well I've seen a bit and I've done a bit, but having to read this schoolgirl bumph from someone who's sole aim on these forums is to mock and not give serious retort and 'grown up' discussion, I'm dropping out of caithness.org forums and let her totally, completely bore the rest of you..
Bye I'm away to reality (oh stop SJ - told you to relax)
PS my sincere thanks to the 28 whoops, sorry 29 posters who contacted me 'private message' who fully agreed with me on my comments (you all know who you are!).

golach
13-Aug-06, 22:54
I'm sure you could probably go on and on about how the UK special forces trained up the US military in Vietnam and maybe they did... but, we LOST the war remember so, will we blame it on their training? c'mon!?
Hmmm I think that was not the troops, but your US government that lost it, blame your government

sjwahwah
13-Aug-06, 23:09
Hmmm I think that was not the troops, but your US government that lost it, blame your government

I'm not blaming either.

changilass
13-Aug-06, 23:13
I'm not blaming either.

Thats a first[disgust]