Are we heading back to a class system??

[fingalmacool]

:confusedWith regards to the new direction of what the government plan to do with Council house allocation/conditions to stay in one, will it be a success or not, a politician has said this morning when asked does he or any one else in the government have any experience of living in a council estate, he of course couldn't/wouldn't say, but said these magic words, "you don't have to have experience in something to make good decisions about it":confused
GOOD GOD WE ARE ALL SCREWED:confused

[Corrie 3]

We cant head back to a class system because its always been there and never gone away.
The only difference these days is that another catagory has been added.
It used to be....

Gentry
Upper class
Middle class
Working class


These days you can add the Feral Scum class to fit in underneath working class....
Dont ever think the class system has gone away, it never has and never will!!!

C3...;)

[emb123]

Yep.

And in answer to the question in the thread title, yep.

Won't be too much longer methinks before we see modern day workhouses for the poor.

If I cherry-pick from the lyrics of the folk song 'where are they now ?'....

Asking wonders of our children
Blind faith in all the rules
But the blind lead the blind from the cradle
Through the faith of fools

The high ideas of a thousand years
All lost on the breeze
Where are they now?

We live in 'interesting times'. :(

[rob murray]

We cant head back to a class system because its always been there and never gone away.
The only difference these days is that another catagory has been added.
It used to be....

Gentry
Upper class
Middle class
Working class


These days you can add the Feral Scum class to fit in underneath working class....
Dont ever think the class system has gone away, it never has and never will!!!


C3...;)

Feral Scum...Known these past 150 years as theLumpenproletariat !

[northener]

I hope we are.

It's only right that people like me should have priveleges over you scruffy oiks.

Now, you, stand aside there, Sirrah.

[Commore]

We cant head back to a class system because its always been there and never gone away.
The only difference these days is that another catagory has been added.
It used to be....

Gentry
Upper class
Middle class
Working class


These days you can add the Feral Scum class to fit in underneath working class....
Dont ever think the class system has gone away, it never has and never will!!!

C3...;)
:lol: HAHAHA, you made me smile and you are so right too, but you forgot to add "tenants" of the "private landlords, who do not see their tenants as human at all, but rather as objects"
toys to be tossed away at the end of the day,,,,,,,,,,,,,,you can guess I hold no respect for my ex-landlord, can't you?

[Gronnuck]

There is always going to be a 'class' system if people want there to be, :roll:. People fall into various socio-economic groups and these days it is possible for people to move up and down according to their capabilites as well as their immediate circumstances.
Unfortunately the ‘class’ system is usually perpetuated by those with a particular axe to grind and/or envy. IMO if you’re feeling undervalued you should stop whinging since you have more opportunities these days of doing something about it

[emb123]

I guess that the class system exists in just about every society that has ever existed and always will.

I think the point that the OP was making was to highlight the fact that the gap between classes, the gap between the arrogant and disdainful 'haves' and largely irrelevant 'have-nots', is widening.

Seriously Gronuck, to claim, as would any politcian belonging to a party that is currently 'in power' that there are more opportunities than ever before, or some such platitude is the kind of political double-talk that recently got Lord Young into trouble with his inappropriate "you've never had it so good". It's a claim which is easier to make than to prove. (I appreciate that that is not 'exactly' what you said, but I'm going somewhere with this, please bear with me.)

Furthermore, if nobody ever whinged about something that caused them and others distress, then there would be no reason for governments to do anything to improve life for the 'have-nots'. They could just please themselves.

Everything is NOT cushdie in everybody's bed of roses, and it is NOT always possible to make significant improvements to ones situation. Not everybody is a lazy, whingeing good-for-nothing. That doesn't mean that just curling up and dying is the only decent thing to do so that those who have perfectly nice rose gardens are not being disturbed. Sometimes banging a drum is about all you can do.

I think it's a fair point worthy of discussion so 'you dunno what you're talking about, so shut up and stop whingeing' (or words to that effect) - please correct me if I misunderstood - is rather limiting the discussion do you not maybe think ? ;)


I observe that the gulf between the haves and the have-nots appears to be widening at a rapidly accelerating pace once again.

I do agree with your point about it being possible to improve one's socio-economic standing and there are certainly more opportunities now than a hundred years ago... but I feel that the OP's point is also that we seem to be moving in the wrong direction, at least in the Highlands / Far North.

I strongly believe that the opportunities you refer to Gronuck are drying up rapidly and with the closure of the RAF base/s in Morayshire, VAT increases, pay cuts and redundancies, things are going to get much worse.

[Gronnuck]

I guess that the class system exists in just about every society that has ever existed and always will.

I think the point that the OP was making was to highlight the fact that the gap between classes, the gap between the arrogant and disdainful 'haves' and largely irrelevant 'have-nots', is widening.

Seriously Gronuck, to claim, as would any politcian belonging to a party that is currently 'in power' that there are more opportunities than ever before, or some such platitude is the kind of political double-talk that recently got Lord Young into trouble with his inappropriate "you've never had it so good". It's a claim which is easier to make than to prove. (I appreciate that that is not 'exactly' what you said, but I'm going somewhere with this, please bear with me.)

Furthermore, if nobody ever whinged about something that caused them and others distress, then there would be no reason for governments to do anything to improve life for the 'have-nots'. They could just please themselves.

Everything is NOT cushdie in everybody's bed of roses, and it is NOT always possible to make significant improvements to ones situation. Not everybody is a lazy, whingeing good-for-nothing. That doesn't mean that just curling up and dying is the only decent thing to do so that those who have perfectly nice rose gardens are not being disturbed. Sometimes banging a drum is about all you can do.

I think it's a fair point worthy of discussion so 'you dunno what you're talking about, so shut up and stop whingeing' (or words to that effect) - please correct me if I misunderstood - is rather limiting the discussion do you not maybe think ? ;)


I observe that the gulf between the haves and the have-nots appears to be widening at a rapidly accelerating pace once again.

I do agree with your point about it being possible to improve one's socio-economic standing and there are certainly more opportunities now than a hundred years ago... but I feel that the OP's point is also that we seem to be moving in the wrong direction, at least in the Highlands / Far North.

I strongly believe that the opportunities you refer to Gronuck are drying up rapidly and with the closure of the RAF base/s in Morayshire, VAT increases, pay cuts and redundancies, things are going to get much worse.

I haven’t the time (or the inclination) to enter into a long debate about all the ‘whys’ and ‘wherefores’ but I have to say that not all ‘haves’ are necessarily ‘arrogant and disdainful’ but have worked hard to gain what they have. They should be applauded for the wealth they create and the tax revenue they contribute. What I do find irksome are those among the ‘have-nots’ that believe they have some right to ‘have’ without making any effort and/or earning it.
Class is nothing to do with one’s ability to become a ‘have’ but is a handy banner with which many ‘have-nots’ can use to justify whinging about the differences.
Regarding the RAF bases in Morayshire; the British military is set to close bases in Germany and needs somewhere for them to go. Paderborn/Sennelager garrisons will be enough to fill Morayshire so it might be time to start lobbying.

[emb123]

Gronuck, the subject could touch upon so many areas that it has potential to spark a broad, tedious and protracted socio-political debate I would prefer to avoid as well :)

I can take a snapshot from both sides of the have and have-not and sit somewhere in the middle just now.

I see the point that you are making about 'class' and indifference, disdainful arrogance or similar adjectives being easy and obvious accusations for have-nots to make, and a cap which many would not care to be seen to be wearing.

The hard-working rich and the hard-working poor should BOTH be applauded for their contributions benefitting society.

I agree with you that it is extremely 'irksome' to listen to the envious accusations of the indolent. Unfortunately, mankind is unlikely to ever purge itself of envy, or indolence for that matter.

Fortunately however, some accusations of class indifference cannot correctly be dismissed as mere envy, but are actually a reasonably accurate asessment of a situation.

I still maintain that the current political and economic climate is likely to broaden the gap to a gulf of difference between the haves and have-nots, it's going to get considerably worse for the foreseeable future and whilst everyone is going to feel the pinch, those on a low wage or who are unwaged despite their efforts and wishes and going to suffer the most extremely. I don't have any problem with people rightly exercising their entitlement to express their discontent about the situation, even if it does come across as whingeing to some.

I suspect that you will agree with me that those who are vociferous as well as quite contentedly unwaged are also incidentally in for a rough time and it may be a good time to get their backsides into gear if they know what's good for them.

[oldmarine]

There always have been and always will be a class system.

[ducati]

Gronuck, the subject could touch upon so many areas that it has potential to spark a broad, tedious and protracted socio-political debate I would prefer to avoid as well :)

I can take a snapshot from both sides of the have and have-not and sit somewhere in the middle just now.

I see the point that you are making about 'class' and indifference, disdainful arrogance or similar adjectives being easy and obvious accusations for have-nots to make, and a cap which many would not care to be seen to be wearing.

The hard-working rich and the hard-working poor should BOTH be applauded for their contributions benefitting society.

I agree with you that it is extremely 'irksome' to listen to the envious accusations of the indolent. Unfortunately, mankind is unlikely to ever purge itself of envy, or indolence for that matter.

Fortunately however, some accusations of class indifference cannot correctly be dismissed as mere envy, but are actually a reasonably accurate asessment of a situation.

I still maintain that the current political and economic climate is likely to broaden the gap to a gulf of difference between the haves and have-nots, it's going to get considerably worse for the foreseeable future and whilst everyone is going to feel the pinch, those on a low wage or who are unwaged despite their efforts and wishes and going to suffer the most extremely. I don't have any problem with people rightly exercising their entitlement to express their discontent about the situation, even if it does come across as whingeing to some.

I suspect that you will agree with me that those who are vociferous as well as quite contentedly unwaged are also incidentally in for a rough time and it may be a good time to get their backsides into gear if they know what's good for them.

Well one good bit of news, it will be a lot easier (less expensive) for poor people to go to university. Unlike my day, when I was too thick, and no amount of money will change that. :lol:

[Mrs Bucket]

We are all born and we all die =

[Blarney]

We are all born and we all die =
....aye but in the interim we fall into different classes, like it or not. The edges may be smudged nowadays and it may be easier to flit between the classes but it is most definitely still thriving.

[theone]

The class system has always been here and always will be. It's only the boundaries that move.

Many working class people I know like to think of themselves as middle class. I think it's because they don't want to associate themselves with those lower down the ladder! I think, if you need to work for the money, you're working class. Simple.

The welfare state has brought a "new" class into play I think, certainly compared to Victorian times when perhaps the class system was most pronounced.

But it's human nature to compare and be envious or proud.

[ducati]

Many working class people I know like to think of themselves as middle class.

Isn't it you then, that is assigning your class structure to people?

[Mrs Bucket]

I feel sad for those who imagine they are superior. they may be richer more intelligent etc but it still does no make them better it is all in their mind

[theone]

Isn't it you then, that is assigning your class structure to people?

Maybe.

But I'm working class and I know it. For me, the middle class are those with enough family money not to need to work, but to work for the passion of it.

My point was that many people I know, who need to work, don't see themselves as working class.

[theone]

I feel sad for those who imagine they are superior. they may be richer more intelligent etc but it still does no make them better it is all in their mind

I don't think the class system is about feeling superior though. In every level of life there is a natural hierarchy. Some of us just can't accept that we're not at the top of it.

I agree with your sentiment however, That hapiness, or success, can only be judged by the individual.

[Walter Ego]

:confused

..........., "you don't have to have experience in something to make good decisions about it":confused

...........

True.

Class system?

There has always been one, but there is a misconception that 'Upper' is all bad and 'Working' is all good.

We'll never get away from the fact that people like to identify with other people who they see as being similar.

No big deal.

[ducati]

True.

Class system?

There has always been one, but there is a misconception that 'Upper' is all bad and 'Working' is all good.

We'll never get away from the fact that people like to identify with other people who they see as being similar.

No big deal.

You are assuming you are only speaking to one "class".

[tonkatojo]

Isn't it you then, that is assigning your class structure to people?

Nah, its always been the tory toffs and now you have tory wannabes, of course there will always be the "working class".

[Walter Ego]

You are assuming you are only speaking to one "class".

Not really, its just that invariably the criticism is 'upwards' on forums like this.

[Walter Ego]

Nah, its always been the tory toffs and now you have tory wannabes, of course there will always be the "working class".


See what I mean?;)

[tonkatojo]

See what I mean?;)

No, I don't see what you mean ?. What I stated is a fact of life.

[emb123]

Not really, its just that invariably the criticism is 'upwards' on forums like this.
to play Devil's advocate, what would an example of 'downwards' criticism be ?

'you whingeing fools are a bunch of lazy, uneducated, beligerent good-for-nothings who've already got more than you deserve' maybe ? :evil

It's easy to stereotype people and thereby dismiss anything they have to say.

[tonkatojo]

to play Devil's advocate, what would an example of 'downwards' criticism be ?

'you whingeing fools are a bunch of lazy, uneducated, beligerent good-for-nothings who've already got more than you deserve' maybe ? :evil

At a guess, the wannabes

[emb123]

I think that the variety of views expressed in this thread effectively proves that there are at least two distinct poles of opinion when it comes to social and political comment and neither is especially tolerant of the other. No great change there.

There is a lot of role-playing and borrowing opinions going on. To get to the underlying truth it is necessary to think outside the box of our own circumstances, to take a long walk in the other persons shoes. Can't see this happening though.

Going back to the OP's suggestion that 'class difference' looks to be increasing with the implication that 'upper/wealthy class indifference and lack of comprehension' is also increasing, it does look to me like the two diameterically opposed views are becoming more firmly entrenched once again.

Those in the wealthy camp are fiercely grasping and defending what they have, whether they were born with it or have worked hard to get it - I'm not criticising here, just stating for the record what I see; those in the other camp are bemoaning the fact (whingeing, if you like :evil ) that life is already tough enough as it is and they really would like some comprehension, consideration and concern from the politicos in the wealthy camp who are about to make their lot much worse with little distress to themselves. Don't see this happening any time soon either.

[tonkatojo]

I think that the variety of views expressed in this thread effectively proves that there are at least two distinct poles of opinion when it comes to social and political comment and neither is especially tolerant of the other. No great change there.

There is a lot of role-playing and borrowing opinions going on. To get to the underlying truth it is necessary to think outside the box of our own circumstances, to take a long walk in the other persons shoes. Can't see this happening though.

Going back to the OP's suggestion that 'class difference' looks to be increasing with the implication that 'upper/wealthy class indifference and lack of comprehension' is also increasing, it does look to me like the two diameterically opposed views are becoming more firmly entrenched once again.

Those in the wealthy camp are fiercely grasping and defending what they have, whether they were born with it or have worked hard to get it - I'm not criticising here, just stating for the record what I see; those in the other camp are bemoaning the fact (whingeing, if you like :evil ) that life is already tough enough as it is and they really would like some comprehension, consideration and concern from the politicos in the wealthy camp who are about to make their lot much worse with little distress to themselves. Don't see this happening any time soon either.

What ?, then again, Aye your right, I think.;)

[ducati]

Nah, its always been the tory toffs and now you have tory wannabes, of course there will always be the "working class".

I've had the jury out on you for a while, but now I have reluctantly, had to come to the conclusion you are Socialist :eek:

[tonkatojo]

I've had the jury out on you for a while, but now I have reluctantly, had to come to the conclusion you are Socialist :eek:

Mind you for the last 10 year I think the labour hierarchy did a good impersonation of cons.

Nah not me, I just don't like being conned "pun meant", I know where my roots are and I worked hard for my crusts much to my bosses delight.;)

[ducati]

Hating people because of their income is wrong. And it doesn't matter which income does the hating. It's just plain wrong.
Vicky Butler Henderson

[tonkatojo]

Hating people because of their income is wrong. And it doesn't matter which income does the hating. It's just plain wrong.
Vicky Butler Henderson

Your taking things too literally I don't hate the high income earners but I don't like the ideology of the cons and now their sidekicks the lib-dems. also your taking your wannabe to new hights pretending to be V-B-H are you not.

[squidge]

I find the constant targetting and sniping at those on low incomes which generally means benefits, whilst continuing to allow very high earners to exploit tax loopholes irritating. I have no problem with people having plenty of money... Indeed I would hope to join them eventually...( lottery win? ) however I find the I'm alright jack attitude depressing. It seems to be about punishing people and not supporting people.... Those people on job seekers allowance for more than a year will lose some housing benefit for example.

I accept that there have to be changes and savings but I see a lack of compassion, understanding and social conscience and I can't stand that

[northener]

I find the constant targetting and sniping at those on low incomes which generally means benefits, whilst continuing to allow very high earners to exploit tax loopholes irritating. I have no problem with people having plenty of money... Indeed I would hope to join them eventually...( lottery win? ) however I find the I'm alright jack attitude depressing. It seems to be about punishing people and not supporting people.... Those people on job seekers allowance for more than a year will lose some housing benefit for example.

I accept that there have to be changes and savings but I see a lack of compassion, understanding and social conscience and I can't stand that


I'd say the 'I'm alright Jack' attitude sweeps across the whole social spectrum in equal measure, regardless of perceived status.

[squidge]

You are right northerner, however it appears to be endemic within our political parties. When government sets out measures which impact on The most vulnerable and don't seem to care we should be concerned. It's the lord young attitude. You have never had it so good, aye unless you are a civilian police employee or a council worker, or a police officer, or on benefits, or sick, or needing support from womens aid type organisations, or needing to be housed in an expensive area, or out of work for 12 months, or in poor housing or wanting to go to university and on and on and on. Where are the measures which affect the highest earners and tax huge bonuses or close loopholes that folk like Philip green use to avoid paying millions in tax?

[ducati]

You are right northerner, however it appears to be endemic within our political parties. When government sets out measures which impact on The most vulnerable and don't seem to care we should be concerned. It's the lord young attitude. You have never had it so good, aye unless you are a civilian police employee or a council worker, or a police officer, or on benefits, or sick, or needing support from womens aid type organisations, or needing to be housed in an expensive area, or out of work for 12 months, or in poor housing or wanting to go to university and on and on and on. Where are the measures which affect the highest earners and tax huge bonuses or close loopholes that folk like Philip green use to avoid paying millions in tax?

As I think I have said before, if the gov. needs to save money, it can only save it on what it spends. The people who, primarily, have the money spent on them are the less well off and the most vulnerable.

Two examples of taking support away from people who shouldn't need it are the Child Benefit from better off families and heating allowance for ex- pat pensioners.

Defence has been cut and Policing have been cut. Two areas you expect people to approve of, but no :confused

[squidge]

Savings are only one part of the equation though. The government must also maximise its income too. To say we have to save money by cutting front line services and driving people off benefits and further into poverty whilst allowing tax avoidance by the super rich and bonus and severance packages that take people into 6 figures(BBC deputy mannie) is not on. In addition there is the manner in which these savings are made. That is the reason why we have 15 000 appeals against the all work test for people in receipt of I'll health benefits. The whole attitude is "how many people can we stop their money" rather that "how can we help these people back into work". I have seen it all before.... People with MS who happen to have a medical on a good day and no account is taken of the bad days they have... Off to work you go. A couple who's mentally and physically disabled daughter learnt to walk a little... They removed her mobility allowance despite the fact that she couldn't walk anywhere by herself and could manage about 50 yards at the most.

Now it's clear there are people playing the system but 15 000 of them? Give over! What we have here and make no mistake is a drive to get people off and let's not care what happens next.

[ducati]

OK. do you not see that by creating the conditions the peeps that contribute the most Tax i.e the big businesses and higher paid, can create more income, then contribute more tax is what will pull us out the mire?

Thereby creating more money for the Gov. to spend on the less well off.

[Phill]

Curious.......

What is class?


Financial wealth or ones background?

[squidge]

Of course I see that. I'm certainly not advocating that we return to taxing high earners at something stupid like 90% but if there are rules for paying tax they should be applying the rules and not allowing people to transfer money or businesses to their spouses with the SOLE purpose of avoiding payment of tax that is rightly and legally due. This is worth plenty money to the country and in a spirit of fairness would be looked at as well.

[ducati]

Of course I see that. I'm certainly not advocating that we return to taxing high earners at something stupid like 90% but if there are rules for paying tax they should be applying the rules and not allowing people to transfer money or businesses to their spouses with the SOLE purpose of avoiding payment of tax that is rightly and legally due. This is worth plenty money to the country and in a spirit of fairness would be looked at as well.

Agreed :D

My experience of the tax system is that any attempt at evading tax is met by a singular lack of sense of humour.

There is however, a whole industry dedicated to avoiding tax. :lol:

Anyone who contributes to an ISA or Pension for instance.

[tonkatojo]

Curious.......

What is class?


Financial wealth or ones background?

Neither in my opinion, class is the quality shown by the individual, the way they live their life.

[squidge]

Lol ducati, an ISA would be nice... Having something to put in it even nicer. But pensions and ISAs are not really what I am talking about. As far back as 2006 the money programme looked into the lucrative business of helping the super rich to avoid tax. This included things like being able to "buy" losses to offset against income. Avoiding national insurance by paying bonuses in gold. And so on. Philip green is the most recent person to come under scrutiny... Estimates are that he 'avoided' paying £300 million pounds through various tax avoidance methods. Instead of castigating him the government gave him a job! He certainly is not the only one either. It seems that it is easier for those rich people to avoid tax than for those of us with more modest incomes...even with ISAs and pensions lol.

What I am really saying is that if there were not an "I'm alright jack but yous guys down there dont matter" attitude going on here wouldn't the government be looking at those people who are fiddling things in the same way politicians fiddled expenses? By closing loopholes, and shutting down ways to manufacture a loss they would maximise the income the country can get.

Whether it's a class issue in the traditional sense of the word I don't know. What I believe is that it is s moral issue and an issue of social responsibility which is lacking in our governments these days.

[northener]

Lol ducati, an ISA would be nice... Having something to put in it even nicer. But pensions and ISAs are not really what I am talking about. As far back as 2006 the money programme looked into the lucrative business of helping the super rich to avoid tax. This included things like being able to "buy" losses to offset against income. Avoiding national insurance by paying bonuses in gold. And so on. Philip green is the most recent person to come under scrutiny... Estimates are that he 'avoided' paying £300 million pounds through various tax avoidance methods. Instead of castigating him the government gave him a job! He certainly is not the only one either. It seems that it is easier for those rich people to avoid tax than for those of us with more modest incomes...even with ISAs and pensions lol.

What I am really saying is that if there were not an "I'm alright jack but yous guys down there dont matter" attitude going on here wouldn't the government be looking at those people who are fiddling things in the same way politicians fiddled expenses? By closing loopholes, and shutting down ways to manufacture a loss they would maximise the income the country can get.

Whether it's a class issue in the traditional sense of the word I don't know. What I believe is that it is s moral issue and an issue of social responsibility which is lacking in our governments these days.

That's not Tax Avoidance, Squidge. that's having a good team of accountants who know the taxatioin legislation like the back of their hand. My accountant tells me how to minimise my tax bill, I take his advice. The figures involved are a side issue.

You cannot bertae someone for playing by the rules. The only answer is to change the rules. I know there's always 'grey' areas in any legislation - but that's the way it goes......

[squidge]

That's not Tax Avoidance, Squidge.

You cannot bertae someone for playing by the rules. The only answer is to change the rules. I know there's always 'grey' areas in any legislation - but that's the way it goes......

Yes it is tax avoidance. And it's the legality of it that should be being examined. If it were illegal it would be tax evasion northerner and it's not that. When it is on a massive scale it is surely immoral. In the same way as flipping properties was not illegal, nor against the rules for MPs but it was designed to avoid their obligations. We sure as anything berated mps for playing by the rules.

Again the issue here is not that loopholes exist but it is the fact that the government are targeting the low paid, the vulnerable and the weak whilst doing nothing, nothing to close these loopholes which favour the rich, strong and powerful. Despite pre election rhetoric by the lib dems.

[ducati]

Lets look at bonuses in the private sector. Very unpopular with people that don't get them.

In fact if the private sector companies (and it is not all bankers) didn't pay them, the money would remain in the vast pot of profit taxed at a very low rate. (or possibly a loss and no tax at all)

However if this money is payed to individuals, Tax is payed at a much higher personal rate and we all benefit.

Voila, big bonuses are good for everyone. :cool:

[northener]

Yes it is tax avoidance. And it's the legality of it that should be being examined. If it were illegal it would be tax evasion northerner and it's not that. When it is on a massive scale it is surely immoral. In the same way as flipping properties was not illegal, nor against the rules for MPs but it was designed to avoid their obligations. We sure as anything berated mps for playing by the rules.

Again the issue here is not that loopholes exist but it is the fact that the government are targeting the low paid, the vulnerable and the weak whilst doing nothing, nothing to close these loopholes which favour the rich, strong and powerful. Despite pre election rhetoric by the lib dems.

I take your point regarding Avoidance/Evasion, Squidge. Fair comment.

But the fact remains that you are judging a legality issue using your own personal moral beliefs and not law. The answer is change the laws. Not berate those who are in a position to legally benefit from these situations.

BTW - regarding the 'Expenses' hyper-whinge - I was always of the opinion that if the MP's were playing by the rules when they declared certain expenses, then we have no right to criticise them. And I didn't. The result was that the rules were tightened up. But, again, no criticism should be levelled at those who were playing by the rules at the time.

But those who chose to attempt to defraud should have got both barrels.

We cannot have a situation where populist 'moral opinion' is allowed to override legislation. That is not how a State should work. The answer is to push for changes to legislation - not berate those who are operating legally.

[Better Out Than In]

I don't understand what people have against us Superior Classes anyway.

[ducati]

I don't understand what people have against us Superior Classes anyway.

Quite so! One has one's standards to maintain, afterall :lol:

[Corrie 3]

This article proves that the class system is alive and well..!!!!!!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11837538


All I need to do now is find someone to breed with !!!

C3.......;):roll::)

[squidge]

The answer is change the laws. Not berate those who are in a position to legally benefit from these situations.

We cannot have a situation where populist 'moral opinion' is allowed to override legislation.

That's exactly what I'm saying. The government should be looking at minimising, reducing or closing the loopholes that allow this situation to take place. They are not doing so. That is the shame. They not only are not looking at these issues, they don't care that this behaviour is allowed legally. This is evident when they gave Mr Green a job. We are alright jack thank you

Populist opinion ... Maybe not, social responsibility however should underpin legislation to ensure the weak, vulnerable and the disaffected are treated fairly and helped to overcome the problems that lead to social disadvantage. The reason for this is not cos I think it is the 'right' thing to do, but because if the government helps people to overcome disadvantage we are likely to find stronger and more productive members of society and thathas to be better for us all.

[rob murray]

OK. do you not see that by creating the conditions the peeps that contribute the most Tax i.e the big businesses and higher paid, can create more income, then contribute more tax is what will pull us out the mire?

Thereby creating more money for the Gov. to spend on the less well off.

To a certain point yes, however what do you mean by conditions ?