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pultneytooner
07-Aug-06, 12:05
For anyone that hasnt read it, Alton Towers are doing a muslims only day in september. Non muslims are being refused tickets, and are not allowed in!

Abid Hussain of Islamic Leisure insisted the day was open to all faiths, although Islamic laws would apply
WHAT???

How racist is that?

Wonder when they going to do a christian only day where any other religeous symbols/clothing isnt allowed? I bet my house that they never do!...why? because these same minority people would be in uproar and screaming racism!

People want equality...fine, But saying u can only come into a public theme park if you are of a certain religion is hardly equal. its about as racist as you can get[mad] !

j4bberw0ck
07-Aug-06, 12:45
Reading between the lines, I suspect that Islamic Leisure has block-booked the entire park that day, rather than Alton Towers marketing an "Islam only" day. The same option is open to Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Communists, Capitalists, politicians, Merchant Bankers, golfers, fishermen, bulletin board correspondents and any other group of people with something in common.

One difference between the Islamic booking and a Christian booking of the same sort is perhaps that the Christians couldn't fill Alton Towers these days. The fact that Islamists can is perhaps cause for concern; but that's a different topic and one that might see some suspensions being handed out! [lol] http://www.teddies.be/Forum/images/smiles/undwech.gif

Lolabelle
07-Aug-06, 13:10
I find it a bit irritating that some (alot) of the people of muslim faith criticise the rest of the world for discriminating against them, but the don't have any problem with discriminating against the rest of us that are not of the muslim faith. A bit like kids learning to share, it only goes one way, everyone else has to be tolerant of them, but they don't have to return the courtesy.
I don't know what it is like in the UK, but in oz it is shocking. The muslim boys rape australian girls and then say that it is their own fault because of our society and the way they dress. They start fights and call the Australian girls awful names and say that it doesn't matter if the gang rape them because basically they are sub human if they are not muslim. And then they say that we pick on them. Obviously that segregation is a common theme.

Elenna
07-Aug-06, 13:14
Yes, it was Islamic Leisure that had organised the event, renting the Alton Towers park for the day, and was promoting it to the Islamic community. They had hoped to find a "niche" market for those more orthodox members who felt uncomfortable with mainstream entertainment, and were going to provide a day where halal meals would be available, and rides segregated, etc. I don't find anything wrong with that. If Alton Towers hires itself out, then any group can pay to rent the park for the day to use in a variety of ways.

However, there was an article on Yahoo UK and Ireland News last Wednesday that said the day had been cancelled due to "insufficient ticket sales"...lack of interest, basically. (I won't put the link here, as I can't vet what it might link to, but it is easily found in the Yahoo UK and Ireland News search).

j4bberw0ck
07-Aug-06, 13:25
I was flabbergasted (indeed, my flabber has rarely been so gasted :lol: ) to hear on the radio news this morning that the most senior Muslim policeman in the UK - an Assistant Commissioner in either Thames Valley Police or the Met - can't remember which - gave a speech yesterday in which he said that the UK police were institutionally racist because in the hunt for terrorists they stopped / searched / interviewed more "Asian or Arab looking" and Muslim people than persons of other groups within the population.

Is it me? Or has everyone else failed to notice the apparent connexion between "Asian / Arab looking people", particularly Muslims, and terrorist acts in the UK and elsewhere?

Edit: (Sorry, failed to make it sufficiently clear that this was intended to relate to Lolabelle's post rather than be a rant about Muslims or terrorists)

MadPict
07-Aug-06, 14:11
Tonight on Ch 4

What Muslims Want

Channel 4 Monday 7 August, 8pm

Jon SnowChannel 4 News presenter Jon Snow tackles one of the most difficult and controversial questions facing our country today: to what extent do Muslims in Britain pose a threat to this country and its values? There is a growing fear that the 1.6 million Muslims in Britain are rejecting the majority liberal, tolerant beliefs in this country for a radicalised version of Islam in which violence can be justified. Dispatches has conducted the most comprehensive and rigorous survey to date of Muslim opinion in Britain, with startling results.


I will be watching to see what the "with startling results" are......

pultneytooner
07-Aug-06, 14:19
Tonight on Ch 4


I will be watching to see what the "with startling results" are...... How about sharia law enforced in areas of britain populated by muslims, it's happened in parts of canada.
Maybe they want a muslim state within britain.

j4bberw0ck
07-Aug-06, 15:08
Pultneytooner, an ICM poll early this year found:

40% of British Muslims in favour of sharia law for predominantly Muslim areas;
20% have empathy with the thoughts and feelings of the London suicide bombers.

BUT 99% thought they were wrong to go through with it, which is slightly encouraging. However, the Muslim population here is 1.6 million, so 1% of those who thought it was right equates to 16,000 people if my mental arithmetic still works......... I think a non-refusable invitation to go live in Afghanistan or Pakistan might legitimately be issued to those 16,000.

Found this while Googling for a BBC report about a week ago which suggested 24% of British Muslims thought suicide bombing of civilian targets could be morally justified "in some circumstances".

Edit: Found an interesting Grauniad report from June this year: >>>here<<< (http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,1804078,00.html)

MadPict
07-Aug-06, 15:08
...or maybe they are happy to have a moderate Muslim society living with our laws?......

Only way to find out is to watch....


Sharia Law in the UK?

What does sharia decree?

Sharia offers a code for living governing all elements of life, from prayers to fasting to donations to the poor. It decrees that men and women should dress modestly, which in some countries is interpreted as women taking the veil and the sexes being segregated.

"Sharia governs the lives of people in ways which are not governed by the law," says Lynn Welchman, director of the Centre for Islamic and Middle Eastern Law. "Over 50 countries are members of the Organisation of Islamic Conference, and you can expect there will be some form of compliance with sharia - either in people's personal lives or enforced through the courts by the state. A lot of states in the Middle East are taking more elements of sharia into their state laws."

What are Hadd offences?

Within sharia law, there is a specific set of offences known as the Hadd offences. These are crimes punished by specific penalties, such as stoning, lashes or the severing of a hand. The penalties for Hadd offences are not universally adopted as law in Islamic countries.

Some countries, such as Saudi Arabia, claim to live under pure sharia law and enforce the penalties for Hadd offences. In others, such as Pakistan, the penalties have not been enforced. The majority of Middle Eastern countries, including Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and Syria, have not adopted Hadd offences as part of their state laws.

Hadd offences carry specific penalties, set by the Koran and by the prophet Mohammed. These include unlawful sexual intercourse (outside marriage); false accusation of unlawful intercourse; the drinking of alcohol; theft; and highway robbery. Sexual offences carry a penalty of stoning to death or flogging while theft is punished with cutting off a hand.

"This is a system of criminal law which has become a potent symbol of Islamisicing the law," says Dr Welchman. "But there is the question of whether it's actually applied in the countries which have adopted it. There is supposed to be a very high burden of proof, but that clearly often doesn't happen in practice."

Many Islamic countries will have adultery and the drinking of alcohol defined as criminal offences in law, but they are not defined as Hadd offences because they do not carry the Hadd penalty. They are often punishable by a prison term instead.

I wonder how the Human Rights Act would come into play if a Muslim in the UK wishes to exercise their rights under the HRA in defiance of a religious law imposed on them by their community/religious leaders?

We already have cases of so called "honour killings" involving Muslims murdering their family members because they have not followed the family wishes and entered into a forced marriage with a cousin or complete stranger.

Why Sharia Law must be Opposed (http://www.ntpi.org/html/whyoppose.html)

pultneytooner
07-Aug-06, 15:17
Pultneytooner, an ICM poll early this year found:

40% of British Muslims in favour of sharia law for predominantly Muslim areas;
20% have empathy with the thoughts and feelings of the London suicide bombers.

BUT 99% thought they were wrong to go through with it, which is slightly encouraging. However, the Muslim population here is 1.6 million, so 1% of those who thought it was right equates to 16,000 people if my mental arithmetic still works......... I think a non-refusable invitation to go live in Afghanistan or Pakistan might legitimately be issued to those 16,000.

Found this while Googling for a BBC report about a week ago which suggested 24% of British Muslims thought suicide bombing of civilian targets could be morally justified "in some circumstances".
Why would those 16,000 want to live in this country if they want sharia law introduced, they should as you say get re-located to afghanistan?
Having their cake and eating it springs to mind.
Madpict, I will watch with interest and hope for some sense to prevail but wont hold my breath.

Homa Arjomand knows what it's like to live under sharia law. In Iran, she endured it until someone tipped her off that she was about to be arrested and imprisoned. Many of her activist friends had already been tried and executed. She, her husband and two small children (the youngest was barely one) escaped on a gruelling trip by horseback through the mountains. That was in 1989.

Today, she lives in a suburb northeast of Toronto. Her job is helping immigrant Muslim women in distress. And now she is battling the arrival of sharia law in Canada.

"We must separate religion from the state," she says emotionally. "We're living in Canada. We want Canadian secular law."

Sharia law in Canada? Yes. The province of Ontario has authorized the use of sharia law in civil arbitrations, if both parties consent. The arbitrations will deal with such matters as property, marriage, divorce, custody and inheritance. The arbitrators can be imams, Muslim elders or lawyers. In theory, their decisions aren't supposed to conflict with Canadian civil law. But because there is no third-party oversight, and no duty to report decisions, no outsider will ever know if they do. These decisions can be appealed to the regular courts. But for Muslim women, the pressures to abide by the precepts of sharia are overwhelming. To reject sharia is, quite simply, to be a bad Muslim.

Ms. Arjomand's cellphone is constantly ringing — with calls of support, or calls for help, or updates on various crises. A client of hers has just that day died of cancer, leaving behind a nine-year-old daughter. The husband was brutally abusive, and now the dead woman's family is terrified that he's going to take the daughter, who was born in Canada, and go back to Iran. Ms. Arjomand has been trying to get Children's Aid to intervene.

In the burgeoning Muslim communities around Toronto, it's customary to settle family disputes internally, by appealing to an imam or an older person in the family. "I have a client from Pakistan who works for a bank," Ms. Arjomand tells me. "She's educated. She used to give all her money to her husband. She had to beg him for money to buy a cup of coffee. Then she decided to keep $50 a month for herself, but he said no."

They took the matter to an uncle, who decreed that because the wife had not been obedient, her husband could stop sleeping with her. (This is a traditional penalty for disobedient wives.) He could also acquire a temporary wife to take care of his sexual needs, which he proceeded to do. Now the woman wants a separation. She's fighting for custody of the children, which, according to sharia, belong to the father.

The law permitting a sharia court was passed in 1991, when Ontario sought to streamline the overloaded court system (and save money) by diverting certain civil cases to arbitration, including arbitration conducted on religious principles. Jewish courts have operated in the province this way for many years. "People can agree to resolve disputes in any way acceptable," said Brendan Crawley, a spokesman for the Ontario attorney-general. "If they decide to resolve disputes using principles of sharia and using an imam as an arbitrator, that is perfectly acceptable under the arbitration act."

Promoters of Islamic law in Canada have been working toward this goal for years. Last fall, they created the Islamic Institute of Civil Justice, which has already chosen arbitrators who have undergone training in sharia and Canadian civil law. The driving force behind the court is a lawyer and scholar named Syed Mumtaz Ali, who was quoted last week saying "to be a good Muslim," all Muslims must use these sharia courts.

Many Muslims, including many women, are enthusiastic about giving Islamic law an official place in Canada, and they emphatically deny that it will harm women's interests. On the contrary. They insist that under Islam, a woman's rights are protected. "We follow the Islamic law, secure with a perfect sense of equality between the sexes," wrote Khansa Muhaseen and Nabila Haque in a letter to the Toronto Star, where the sharia debate has been raging fiercely.

Opponents of the new tribunals argue that the government's imprimatur will give sharia law even greater legitimacy. Sharia law is based on the Koran, which, according to Muslim belief, provides the divine rules for behaviour. What is called sharia varies widely (in Nigeria, for example, it has been invoked to justify death by stoning). The one common denominator is that it is strongly patriarchal.

Alia Hogben is president of the Canadian Council of Muslim Women, a pro-faith group with members from every Muslim culture. But the council was never consulted about the new sharia courts, and it strongly opposes them.

"This is a very difficult position for us to be in because we are believing women," says Ms. Hogben. "But to apply Muslim family law in Canada is not appropriate." In Britain, she adds, the government has flatly rejected councils for sharia law.

Both Ms. Hogben and Ms. Arjomand — the former an observant Muslim, the latter not — are lobbying hard for Ontario to change the arbitration law.

(Ms. Arjomand has launched a petition, which you can find through a web search for "International Campaign Against Sharia Courts in Canada.")

When Ms. Hogben's family came to Canada 50 years ago, the Muslim population was tiny. In the 1970s, she and her husband started a tiny mosque in Toronto that they shared with Albanians and Bosnians. Today, Canada's Muslim population numbers more than 600,000, and many Muslims live in self-contained enclaves where there is little interaction with the outside world. Ms. Hogben welcomes the stronger sense of identity among Muslims now. But she warns that many of the new arrivals have brought with them a far more rigid version of Islam. "A lot of money is being poured into North America from very traditional groups from Saudi Arabia and Libya," she points out. These groups are not known for their tolerance of other versions of Islam, or for their progressive attitudes toward women.

Immigrant women are among the most vulnerable people in Canada. Many don't speak English, are poorly educated, and are isolated from the broader culture. They may live here for decades without learning the language, and stay utterly dependent on their families. They have no idea of their rights under Canadian law.

Both Ms. Hogben and Ms. Arjomand say that we are sacrificing these women on the altar of multiculturalism.

"This is an abuse of multiculturalism, says Ms. Hogben. "There is a lack of courage [on the part of governments], and also a fear of offending Muslim sensitivities."

"I chose to come to Canada because of multiculturalism," says Ms. Arjomand, who gave up a career in medical science to work with women who are victims of abuse. "But when I came here, I realized how much damage multiculturalism is doing to women. I'm against it strongly now. It has become a barrier to women's rights.

Rheghead
07-Aug-06, 17:09
How about sharia law enforced in areas of britain populated by muslims, it's happened in parts of canada.
Maybe they want a muslim state within britain.

I think christians want a Christian state as well.:roll: Is that racist as well?

pultneytooner
07-Aug-06, 17:34
I think christians want a Christian state as well.:roll: Is that racist as well? Racist, sorry rheghead but i am not going to take the bait.;)
Is this not a predominately christian country.
Do christians want their own specific laws enforced or are they quite happy to abide by the laws of this country?
Would you be quite happy for the muslims of this country to have their own state within a state so to speak?
Would you be quite happy for them to have sharia law and all that involves, introduced in this country?
If someone broke the law whilst in a muslim area then should they be subject to their laws?

scotsboy
07-Aug-06, 17:44
So a block booking has been made at Alton Towers by a Muslim group – so what? Do you really think that Muslims are so much different than the rest of “us”, believe me there are far more things to worry about than a day out at Alton Towers. You would think that no other group of religious/social or political ever booked a place for a do – you never been on a Salvation Army Picnic, were you never at a Viewfirth Christmas Party?

pultneytooner
07-Aug-06, 17:54
So a block booking has been made at Alton Towers by a Muslim group – so what? Do you really think that Muslims are so much different than the rest of “us”, believe me there are far more things to worry about than a day out at Alton Towers. You would think that no other group of religious/social or political ever booked a place for a do – you never been on a Salvation Army Picnic, were you never at a Viewfirth Christmas Party? Fair enough, others block book functions or whatever but what would happen if the salvation army stopped someone going on that picnic because they were muslim, jewish, whatever?
Are you allowed to have christmas parties, wasn't that banned as it may offend minority groups or is that only in certain parts of england?

unicorn
07-Aug-06, 17:59
well said scotsboy :) When will people stop lumping people together as one big group? My best friend is a muslim, he doesn't hold many different views from me, He doesn't have 2 heads, He doesn't want to change the world or blow things up, I actually think his way of life is a good one, he is the eldest son in his family and he stands up and takes the responsibility of all problems without complaint since his father died, he is keeping his fathers business going by sheer hard work because it was his fathers and it is his memory, how many of our kids would have the respect to do that. They are not all religious nuts!! Very few are. I am hoping he will come to visit and stay for a few weeks as my family do with his but I just hope he doesn't encounter any issues here due to his race.

pultneytooner
07-Aug-06, 18:04
well said scotsboy :) When will people stop lumping people together as one big group? My best friend is a muslim, he doesn't hold many different views from me, He doesn't have 2 heads, He doesn't want to change the world or blow things up, I actually think his way of life is a good one, he is the eldest son in his family and he stands up and takes the responsibility of all problems without complaint since his father died, he is keeping his fathers business going by sheer hard work because it was his fathers and it is his memory, how many of our kids would have the respect to do that. They are not all religious nuts!! Very few are. I am hoping he will come to visit and stay for a few weeks as my family do with his but I just hope he doesn't encounter any issues here due to his race.
Lumping people together, two heads, terrorists, religious nuts when was this all said?
Well said scotsboy for going against something that wasn't said or implied.

unicorn
07-Aug-06, 18:13
ok fine this wasn't said YET, I agree with that but I am just trying to make a point that there is no them and us essentially we are all the same. You say that other faiths are being refused tickets but it also says in your quote that the day is open other faiths.

pultneytooner
07-Aug-06, 18:17
ok fine this wasn't said YET, I agree with that but I am just trying to make a point that there is no them and us essentially we are all the same. You say that other faiths are being refused tickets but it also says in your quote that the day is open other faiths.
It wasn't said or ever will be said by me.
The point is if the park was indeed open to other faiths then why were so many refused entry, can you imagine the outcry if this was the other way around?
There certainly is no them and us but bad situations are created which there is absolutely no need for, that is what I disagree with the most.

Rheghead
07-Aug-06, 18:20
Racist, sorry rheghead but i am not going to take the bait.;)


I didn't incinuate that you had racist views, but may I remind you that it was you that introduced the race card into this discussion. When christians are a healthy mix of black, yellow and white and Islam is also a mix of white, yellow and black/brown, I struggled to understand why you thought it was racist to have a muslim day at Alton towers when they said the day was open to all faiths but with a muslim theme.

If you had said only muslims of middle eastern descent need to apply for tickets then I would see your point.

unicorn
07-Aug-06, 18:20
well personally if I had booked any place for any reason I would hope I was entitled to say who could or couldn't enter.

scotsboy
07-Aug-06, 18:47
As far as I know Alton Towers is a private enterprise and not a public park – so it can choose what customers it has in its establishment. The fact that a Muslim Organization booked it for one day (17th September) is neither here nor there – there is another scheduled private event on 30th September where the general public will be denied access – maybe you can find out which minority group is denying your human rights to go on a helter skelter that day.
Anyway it is my understanding that the event was cancelled due to lack of interest, so sleep easy.

And let me tell you there was no chance of getting into a Veiwfirth Christmas party if yer faither didna work at Dounreay;)

MadPict
07-Aug-06, 19:34
When you read the aims of the "Fun Day" it is less 'threatening'...

Islamic leisure Ltd is an up and coming leisure provider in the UK focusing on the needs of the Muslim community. Many of the leisure facilities in the UK are unsuitable for Muslim use due to the presence of alcohol, music & gambling onsite to name just a few of the Muslims concerns. We at Islamic leisure aim to liaise with existing leisure providers and arrange environments that are conducive to Islamic regulations whilst retaining the 'fun factor'. The ultimate aim is to fill the void in the arena of Halal leisure for Muslims.

Our biggest project to date is the upcoming ‘National Muslim fun day at Alton towers 2006’. This event has been booked exclusively for our guests and will be held on Sunday 17th September. We have arranged with Alton towers to ensure no music, gambling or alcohol is allowed on the day as well as segregated adult ride areas, halal food stalls & prayer areas. We hope this day will live up to all your expectations and be a part of your happy memories for years to come.

Islamic Leisure – Bringing Islam & Leisure together.


They wish to have 'fun' while not breaking any religious laws...


But as stated earlier the event has been cancelled...

A theme park that was embroiled in a row after booking a white wedding during a Muslim "fun day" has been saved from further embarrassment by poor ticket sales for the Islamic event.

Alton Towers had been criticised by Scott Lee, 30, and his fiancée Amanda Morris, 31, after it told the couple that they and their guests would have to cover up in line with Islamic dress codes and would be unable to go on the rides together.

The couple, from Leeds, who spent £5,000 on the ceremony, said the restrictions would ruin their big day on Sept 17. But yesterday it emerged that the Muslim fun day had been cancelled because of poor ticket sales despite an extensive advertising campaign by the organisers, Islamic Leisure.
Click Here

Miss Morris, a recruitment sales adviser, said she was delighted with the news although she felt sorry for those who had bought tickets for the rival event.

She said: "We are so pleased with the decision. It won't affect our day any more and we can get excited about the wedding again now. Alton Towers has even given all the guests free tickets on the Sunday, I think as a way of apologising for the stress."
www.telegraph.co.uk



How the Telegraph broke the news in July...

A couple's plans for a £5,000 wedding at Alton Towers were thrown into confusion yesterday after it emerged that the theme park had double booked them with a fun day for 20,000 Muslims.

Amanda Morris, 30, and her fiance, Scott Lee, 31, have been told that if they go ahead with the ceremony they will not be allowed to go on celebratory rides together.

Furthermore, Miss Morris and her female guests will have to cover up to be in line with guests of Islamic Leisure wearing hijabs. "I've been looking forward to this day for 18 months, and suddenly it's in ruins," she said yesterday.

"Everything was booked - the photographer, the hotel rooms, everything. Then some of our guests started getting letters saying they would have to cover up because it was a Muslim event.

connieb19
07-Aug-06, 20:00
Has everyone remembered to tune in to Channel 4?

Lolabelle
07-Aug-06, 20:40
I think christians want a Christian state as well.:roll: Is that racist as well?

Here here, Rheghead.
I find it very distressing that these people move to other countries to supposedly have a better life, only to bring all the tyrany of their countries with them and then inflict it on us. Their ways are barbaric in some instances and I wish they would fit in or move out. They are forever sneaking into australia illegally and then whinging because the are put into detention camps until they are sorted out or shipped back out. But we cant even go into their countries without obeying their dress code ect, bu they can just lob here illegaly and expect us (the aussie taxpayers) to foot the bill to keep them and furnish them with accomodation and medical and money.
And then they complain that they are discriminated against.
We can't give up and be complacent or they will take over. We should not change laws to accomodate them. Laws that could end up with our countries in as bad a state as the ones that they have fled from.

Lolabelle
07-Aug-06, 20:51
well said scotsboy :) When will people stop lumping people together as one big group? My best friend is a muslim, he doesn't hold many different views from me, He doesn't have 2 heads, He doesn't want to change the world or blow things up, I actually think his way of life is a good one, he is the eldest son in his family and he stands up and takes the responsibility of all problems without complaint since his father died, he is keeping his fathers business going by sheer hard work because it was his fathers and it is his memory, how many of our kids would have the respect to do that. They are not all religious nuts!! Very few are. I am hoping he will come to visit and stay for a few weeks as my family do with his but I just hope he doesn't encounter any issues here due to his race.
I agree with you unicorn, not all muslims are racist and fanatics, but unfortunately they are also not the ones who make all the noise. So the attention is not focused on them, but in the cases of gang wars, and gang rapes and persucution in Australia, the people who are not carrying on with the above also do not speak out or chastise the trouble makers. So are they condoning it with thier silence?

percy toboggan
07-Aug-06, 20:55
I just watched a programme called 'What Muslims Want ?' on the television and not one of them mentioned a day out at Alton Towers. This could just be a storm in a teacup.

MadPict
07-Aug-06, 21:11
Isolation not integration seemed to be the main finding of this programme. Where the parents of todays British Muslims were happy to integrate into British society it seems that their offspring with their better education are not so willing to be integrated.

unicorn
07-Aug-06, 21:16
So every time there is a rape in the UK by a white citizen we should all shout about how bad it is??? Rape is a horrendous crime but it is forced upon women and men of all races and colours and commited by women and men of all races and cultures. No society is perfect. I wish it could be so but it never will be.

crayola
08-Aug-06, 01:05
Nice to see our Muslim brothers exercising their right not to behave as sheep.

squidge
08-Aug-06, 07:52
Why on earth would someone want to get married at Alton Towers???:confused

Sharia Law has a place in muslim communities - just like jewish people get advice and guidance from their rabbi and observe laws and customs within the jewish faith. The Christian church has the right to discipline ministers and to refuse to marry those who have been divorced. The Catholic church tells people that abortion is not acceptable even though it is lawful. These religious "laws" have a place within our societies however they cannot and must not override the laws of the state. It is not acceptable for people to be stoned to death nor is it acceptable for religious laws to override the laws of equality or discrimination.

An example of what i am talking about is arranged marriages - where the woman is agreeable to an arranged marriage then it is perfectly acceptable to follow that route but the law of the land should not be used to force a woman into an arranged marriage. If a man takes a "second wife" to see to his sexual needs if the sharia law allows it then he should take one but he must not be surprised if the state law allows his wife to divorce him for adultery. If during that divorce the state law and the religious law come into confict it must ALWAYS be the state law that prevails. If a man and a woman agree to live a stricly islamic life whatever we think about it it is their prerogative to do so - there is no issue of equality unless one party doesnt want to live like this and is forced to do so.

The law of the state MUST take precedence over ANY religious "court". There must never be a time where a girl can get killed over her choice of husband and those responsible can walk free saying "well it was within our religious law" whatever religion they are.

pultneytooner
08-Aug-06, 08:30
Why on earth would someone want to get married at Alton Towers???:confused

Sharia Law has a place in muslim communities - just like jewish people get advice and guidance from their rabbi and observe laws and customs within the jewish faith. The Christian church has the right to discipline ministers and to refuse to marry those who have been divorced. The Catholic church tells people that abortion is not acceptable even though it is lawful. These religious "laws" have a place within our societies however they cannot and must not override the laws of the state. It is not acceptable for people to be stoned to death nor is it acceptable for religious laws to override the laws of equality or discrimination.

An example of what i am talking about is arranged marriages - where the woman is agreeable to an arranged marriage then it is perfectly acceptable to follow that route but the law of the land should not be used to force a woman into an arranged marriage. If a man takes a "second wife" to see to his sexual needs if the sharia law allows it then he should take one but he must not be surprised if the state law allows his wife to divorce him for adultery. If during that divorce the state law and the religious law come into confict it must ALWAYS be the state law that prevails. If a man and a woman agree to live a stricly islamic life whatever we think about it it is their prerogative to do so - there is no issue of equality unless one party doesnt want to live like this and is forced to do so.

The law of the state MUST take precedence over ANY religious "court". There must never be a time where a girl can get killed over her choice of husband and those responsible can walk free saying "well it was within our religious law" whatever religion they are.
Very well said squidge.

j4bberw0ck
08-Aug-06, 08:54
I agree with squidge.

I watched the C4 programme last night rather cautiously - expecting to start feeling angry about half way through, and then going of on one of my rants (Mrs J4bberw0ck usually rolls her eyes and retreats behind a book [lol] ). Actually, I found it difficult to become irritated at all - the people interviewed were reasonable, articulate about what they want in terms of their culture, and why. The youth worker who interrupted the interview with the young "graphic designer" and made him look like a complete fool was a real star.

Having said that, I do think the Government and other political parties should provide a lead here and make a definitive statement to the Muslim community to make clear the limitations and adjust their expectations. Something along the lines of:

1. We will not now or ever allow Sharia Law any official status within the UK. It conflicts with UK law in a number of important ways and UK law will always take precedence over any ruling by an imam.

2. Church and State are quite separate in this secular State and will remain so.

3. We will not now or ever pass laws making it an offence to offend against Islam or its prophets. Action against people who are thought to have offended will be prosecuted in accordance with UK law.

Then if Muslims (or Christians!) want to change things they'll need to start a political party and win enough seats to vote change through.

It's a shame the programme didn't look at the politicisation of Islam. Reference was made to the cartoons of the prophet, for instance, but no mention was made of the, ah, "spontaneous" outcry which actually happened several weeks after the publication and clearly took a great deal of planning and coordination to get people on the streets all over the world at the same time, and all conveniently having a natty little flag to wave and burn. I mean , how many Danish flags do you have in your house?

I think it's also interesting (not to mention amusing) to look at some similarities between immigrant communities and other groups - for instance, Britons living in France or Spain. Britons leaving to live elsewhere often say that besides the weather, they're leaving because "the country's gone to the dogs", or because of "immigration".

** All these groups leave their country of origin and arrive in their destination country with usually only a sketchy knowledge of the laws and customs and cultures.

** Some have a command of the language, but by no means all. Those that learn the language later in life usually retain a strange accent and very dodgy grammar. Natives of the country often have trouble understanding what they're saying.

** They like to live in groups of contemporaries for the company of people they can talk to, and because the culture of their destination country is strange and unfamiliar.

** They frequent shops owned by others who've moved in to the country, because those shops sell products they used to use in their country of origin (Marmite, anyone?)

** If they have children they like to bring up their children as they would have been brought up had they stayed in their country of origin. Sooner or later, they start wanting schools to cater for their individual culture's preferences (a group of Brits in a French village recently petitioned the Maire to have their children taught in English at a French school!)

** They're very often suspicious of the attitude of the natives of the country towards the immigrant population.

It's ironic that many Brits end up as the very thing they left the country to escape [lol]

gleeber
08-Aug-06, 09:13
2. Church and State are quite separate in this secular State and will remain

Church and state are not seperate in Britain. Church bishops are granted automatic privelage to sit in the House of Lords. President Bush is heavily involved with some very dodgy right wing Christians.
Religion permeates most corners of human thought whether we want to admit it or not. Religion was and still is a place for people to lay their hats when their observable understanding of their world comes to a close. Mans (and womens) search for meaining has taken them into all corners of the imagination. Nothing has been left unturned except mans true understanding of himself.
At pain of being excommunicated I urge you all to repent your fantasies, pick up your beds, and run like mad.

Rheghead
08-Aug-06, 09:20
I agree with the comments made by Jon Snow regarding muslim women's decision to wear the veil or their men folk's insistence on them doing so. It makes them unapproachable to other people so it would not be surprising that the muslim community is feeling disenfranchised in British society.

The human brain is hardwired to communicate with other human brains via visual and audial means, ie through facial expression and speech. To have one of these mediums taken away just jars the communication process, they are going against nature and millions of years of evolution.

So to be brutally honest with myself, if I walked into the Post office and there was a veiled woman at the end counter, then I would prefer to hear "Cashier number TWO please!".

j4bberw0ck
08-Aug-06, 09:22
Church and state are not seperate in Britain. Church bishops are granted automatic privelage to sit in the House of Lords

Yes, but that doesn't mean the Church is involved in drafting legislation. The Lords has very limited powers and can be overruled by the Commons.


President Bush is heavily involved with some very dodgy right wing Christians.

True. You know, I like America. I like most Americans I've met. There was a time when I almost married an American and moved there. The thing that baffles me about America is how so many intelligent people can be so fundamentalist about their religion. It's terribly dangerous stuff.


Religion permeates most corners of human thought whether we want to admit it or not. Religion was and still is a place for people to lay their hats when their observable understanding of their world comes to a close.

It shouldn't be religion that performs that role. There's something very elegant and simple about faith (as in, in a deity for instance) which is wholly and completed corrupted when religion gets involved. Religion is a human-made political construct around a simple and elegant theme.

Dreadnought
08-Aug-06, 09:48
One day out of 365. Yeah, really racist... :roll:

Btw,there are also many thousands of white muslims in Britain, born here, of totally British descent.

squidge
08-Aug-06, 10:05
I agree with the comments made by Jon Snow regarding muslim women's decision to wear the veil or their men folk's insistence on them doing so. It makes them unapproachable to other people so it would not be surprising that the muslim community is feeling disenfranchised in British society.

The human brain is hardwired to communicate with other human brains via visual and audial means, ie through facial expression and speech. To have one of these mediums taken away just jars the communication process, they are going against nature and millions of years of evolution.

So to be brutally honest with myself, if I walked into the Post office and there was a veiled woman at the end counter, then I would prefer to hear "Cashier number TWO please!".

Women should be allowed to wear the veil if they choose. If htis is a decision made by her or as a couple then the state should be able to accommodate this.

Clearly there are areas where wearing a veil isnt appropriate - an example would be a passport photograph - the law states that a passport photo should be full face and so on and the lady in question must understand that the law will prevail and her picture will be without the veil. Working is another issue - the veil makes it harder to communicate but by no means impossible, in a similar way that a person behind a screen is harder to communicate with or someone who is deaf may be harder to communicate with for someone who is unused to meeting a deaf person.

People stare at women wearing a veil in the same way they stare at people in wheelchair but there is nothing alarming about either. rhegheads attitude about the veil says more about him than about the women choosing this dress. I imagine that a woman wearing a veil may choose not to work in a public facing role for similar reasons to choosing to wear a veil but if she does it is up to her employer to decide on her suitability for her job. Having conducted interviews with several veiled women in Manchester and also having worked in shops and served women dressed in such a way i would have no worries about the wifie in the post office. Relatively Few women actually wear the veil and so it is not likely to be responsible for the disenfranchisement of the muslim community although as a very visual difference it is likely to be picked upon as a reason by those who dont look very far

pultneytooner
08-Aug-06, 10:15
One day out of 365. Yeah, really racist... :roll:

Btw,there are also many thousands of white muslims in Britain, born here, of totally British descent.
Och, they're only discriminating once a year, no big deal.

Rheghead
08-Aug-06, 10:31
rhegheads attitude about the veil says more about him than about the women choosing this dress.

And that is what attitude? I hadn't expressed an attitude, my opinion was neutral-value, you are jumping to conclusions again like you always do in your usual sanctimonious way. I was making the point that human nature's hardwired need to communicate doesn't make allowances for cultural differences. I don't apologise for how the human race is and how it has developed, and squidge's snide comments serve only to stifle any debate on the cultural differences which face our country by bringing shame onto anyone who shares a differing view.

Muslim women have every right to wear a veil, but my point is that doing so does not help them to integrate into society. It is the difference between a call-centre response and a helpful face to face enquiry desk, pure and simple.

I actually think that (now we are getting to the real point) muslim women who decide to wear it have the 'I wanna be the victim' streak in them, especially the young ones who do so without pressure from family or friends. Little do they know that the veil has its origins in tribal identity on the Arabian peninsular and has very little to do with Islamic beliefs. It is more or less like wearing a Rangers top for school on the understanding that you want your religious identity to be known that you are protestant. Would we allow that in our schools? There are many female muslims that do not feel the need to wear the veil and good luck to them. Muslim women who wear the veil say a lot about themselves by doing so, they don't want to communicate with society, they are happy to be the victim and a symbol of muslim men's oppression. That is what is really being said...

gleeber
08-Aug-06, 10:41
It shouldn't be religion that performs that role. There's something very elegant and simple about faith (as in, in a deity for instance) which is wholly and completed corrupted when religion gets involved. Religion is a human-made political construct around a simple and elegant theme.
Elegance is a word I would use to describe the observable universe as explained in science.
I would be more inclined to agree that faith in a deity would be comforting for the individual, but as history has shown, depending on the deity, that type of faith comes with its own baggage. Usually a holy book. I dont see any difference between faith and religion. In my holy book they are one and the same.

MadPict
08-Aug-06, 10:56
Why on earth would someone want to get married at Alton Towers???:confused



Why on earth would anyone get married.........:confused

MadPict
08-Aug-06, 11:07
The youth worker who interrupted the interview with the young "graphic designer" and made him look like a complete fool was a real star.




The Muslims need more people like that guy (youth worker, not rabid Islamisist) - he had nothing but sense to speak and was certainly the high point in the programme for me.

When Jon Snow asked Rabid Islamisist how did he justify accepting British education his reply that it was before he became a Muslim was laughable. Everything comes from God - except my education, free health care and social security.....[lol]

squidge
08-Aug-06, 11:11
And that is what attitude? I hadn't expressed an attitude, my opinion was neutral-value, you are jumping to conclusions again like you always do in your usual sanctimonious way. ...

My apologies Rheghead i was assuming that the past of your message which says

So to be brutally honest with myself, if I walked into the Post office and there was a veiled woman at the end counter, then I would prefer to hear "Cashier number TWO please!"...

was you indicating your attitude towards women wearing theveil - that you would prefer not to deal with them. You personalised that coment which indicated it was your preference and your attitude. Many people have the same attitude, i did not intend to be "snide" about it but simply to illustrate there are other different attitudes than the one you suggested with your comment.

I agree that girls in schools should not be allowed to wear the veil. I sort of swither between allowing them them to wear a headscarf or trousers or simply having to stick to a school uniform. I cant decide to be honest but the Burkha is something different. Having said that women who are adults and often well educated and articulate who make the decision to wear the veil should be allowed to do so. I think many of them would take exception to your description of them as victims. The real point is actually why they wear it not what anyone else who hasnt bothered to ask thinks they wear it for. Educating and informing people who have opinions like the one that you illustrate - which in no way am I suggesting is your own opinion - that they

say a lot about themselves by doing so, they don't want to communicate with society, they are happy to be the victim and a symbol of muslim men's oppression.
is important and worth doing in my opinion but here will always be people who make assumptions about women wearing the veil in a similar way as there are always people who make assumptions about people with disabilities without bothering to ask. Not really very different is it.

You are right to say that we are "hardwired" to communicate in a certain way and that evolution doesnt make allowances for culture. Thats why we are not simply a programme but thinking breathing compassionate and complicated individuals. There are millions of reasons why its not always easy and straightforward to communicate - language, culture, disability, location and we work to overcome those difficulties in many ways. Quite often it is very easy to get around the problems that we perceive are there. The veil just needs a little more thought but maybe in our self important world we arent prepared to make the effort. I think thats a shame

MadPict
08-Aug-06, 12:45
Why on earth would someone want to get married at Alton Towers???:confused

Sharia Law has a place in muslim communities - just like jewish people get advice and guidance from their rabbi and observe laws and customs within the jewish faith. The Christian church has the right to discipline ministers and to refuse to marry those who have been divorced. The Catholic church tells people that abortion is not acceptable even though it is lawful. These religious "laws" have a place within our societies however they cannot and must not override the laws of the state. It is not acceptable for people to be stoned to death nor is it acceptable for religious laws to override the laws of equality or discrimination.


The law of the state MUST take precedence over ANY religious "court". There must never be a time where a girl can get killed over her choice of husband and those responsible can walk free saying "well it was within our religious law" whatever religion they are.

The trouble is that those calling for the Islamisation of the world DO want Sharia Law to overide state law. These are not the older more moderate Muslims that most of us have met in the past, happy to live side by side with us Infidels, but young radicalised Muslims who want to convert the world.

Those calling for Sharia Law to be established in their community wish for it to be the only law. The Turkish Cypriot guy who was also interviewed by Jon Snow was pretty adamant that anyone irrespective of their age should be punished in accordance with Sharia Law. So a eight year old child caught stealing would suffer anything from lashes to getting a hand amputated. Under current law they would get a severe bollocking.
Chop off hand?
Words of advice?
Yes it might be a deterrent to stop people breaking the law, but we in the West have moved out of the Dark Ages and religious persecution.

But then, the Islamic calendar is still only in 1472..........

squidge
08-Aug-06, 12:54
I didnt see the programme last night mad pict cos I had unexpected visitor with designs for an axe that i am buying and its not for chopping off hands of 8 year old boys - honest!!!!

what makes these young radicals radical then? What is it that makes them so fanatical? Anyone any ideas?

j4bberw0ck
08-Aug-06, 13:06
Squidge, that was a point that the programme didn't address particularly well. It talked about isolation and different values, and there was much made of the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq. It would have been good to see a more detailed examination of why Muslims are the only sector of the population which is becoming less integrated into the UK with time.

It may be, I suppose, that there's an element of rebellion (as in teenage typre rebellion) where you tend to do and believe the opposite of your parents and so perhaps radicalism is seen as "cool". But Islam certainly seems to have learned the trick of having its followers see themselves as Muslim first and nationals of a country, second.

The problem though is that I don't see why radical Muslims expect to have it both ways - the benefits of living here (such as they are) without returning loyalty in any sense. Just like the rest of us, they need to buy in or get out.

squidge
08-Aug-06, 13:39
I looked at the website that went withthe programme and did the wee survey and was interested to read the less than radical responses i have to say. Also there was much hype about 40% of muslims wanting sharia law recently reported in the telegraph but that was a survey of simply 500 muslims - not a huge amount to represent the whole of islamic Britain.

there is an interesting article http://www.channel4.com/news/microsites/D/dispatches2006/muslim_survey/muslims.html
connected to the Channel 4 programme whch makes the point that a huge amount of muslims do not know who represents their views and that they feel politically voiceless. Seems like there is some work to be done if you ask me

MadPict
08-Aug-06, 15:50
I didnt see the programme last night mad pict cos I had unexpected visitor with designs for an axe that i am buying and its not for chopping off hands of 8 year old boys - honest!!!!

Well when they want a hand lopper-offer I'll send them to you...



what makes these young radicals radical then? What is it that makes them so fanatical? Anyone any ideas?

One aspect of their fanaticism is that they believe that a Muslim killed in Iraq is a direct attack on them and on Islam.

The word "disenfranchised" seems to feature a lot in the vocabulary of young Muslims.

But ask them to choose between a comfortable life living in a country with liberal values and laws or returning to a country which strictly enforces the law of Islam and all of a sudden the hands are not so quick to be raised.
Last night I watched Shariah TV where this very question was put to the audience of Muslims. Only one person (a rather vocal music producer who seems to have had a lot of air time this week) actually said he would. Well, goodbye....

According to most Islamic scholars, British laws and way of life do not conflict with Islam, which teaches Muslims to follow the law of the land they live in.
Yet some radical Islamists believe that it is not acceptable to get involved in politics in a secular society because it means being part of a system that’s not based on Shariah. They say that Muslims can only legislate on the basis of Shariah, and should neither stand for election nor vote in the British political system.
So if a young radical Muslim feels "disenfranchised" living here he really only has his religion to blame...

The more I learn about Islam the more I wonder why anyone would want to follow such a restrictive way of life....:eyes

scotsboy
08-Aug-06, 16:34
Willowbankbear wrote:
Och, they're only discriminating once a year, no big deal.

and the quote Willowbankbear placed in his first post:


Abid Hussain of Islamic Leisure insisted the day was open to all faiths, although Islamic laws would apply

Now tell me where the discrimination is?(or would have been?)

By the way it is a nice touch that The Rangers Football Club produce their team shirt minus the sponsor (Carling) for their Muslim fans.

Rheghead
08-Aug-06, 18:22
what makes these young radicals radical then? What is it that makes them so fanatical? Anyone any ideas?

Wanting offenders to be lashed or have their hands cut off is not a sign of radicalisation because there are countries like Saudi Arabia that are routinely do this as part of their punishment process,. It is sharia law, believed in by millions across the world.

Our separation of religion from state was a painful process which resulted in lots of bloodshed through the civil war, Henry II's exploits etc etc. It has allowed to develop over time and society has evolved over time as a result. It could be impractical/foolhardy to implement such a change of ideology on a state without the pain, we have come through the otherside through modernity, many Islamic countries haven't

There would be some immigrants that can identify with our history but naturally there are lots that don't if their ancestors were not a part of it, as a result they identify themselves with a history that has been part of their ancestors lives, ie Sharia law.

What is the answer? I don't know but it may take the equivalent of what is needed for me to believe in Sharia law if I emmigrated to Saudi...

pultneytooner
08-Aug-06, 18:24
Willowbankbear wrote:

and the quote Willowbankbear placed in his first post:



Now tell me where the discrimination is?(or would have been?)

By the way it is a nice touch that The Rangers Football Club produce their team shirt minus the sponsor (Carling) for their Muslim fans. Willowbankbear never posted any of that.

pultneytooner
08-Aug-06, 18:27
Abid Hussain of Islamic Leisure insisted the day was open to all faiths, although Islamic laws would apply Where is the discrimination, how about islamic laws would apply, hows that for discrimination.?

squidge
08-Aug-06, 18:40
I dont think thats discriminating Pultenytooner, If Islamic leisure book the day then they are allowed to set their rules and i think thats ok. They pay their money they can set the rules.

scotsboy
08-Aug-06, 18:56
Apologies to Willowbankbear and to Pultneytooner – getting my Wick Rangers supporters mixed up.

As there is no such thing as Islamic Law I would suggest that Abid Hussain may have been a victim of a misquote. I simply think that persons would be expected to dress conservatively and not partake in alcohol consumptions, gambling etc.

pultneytooner
08-Aug-06, 19:10
Apologies to Willowbankbear and to Pultneytooner – getting my Wick Rangers supporters mixed up.

As there is no such thing as Islamic Law I would suggest that Abid Hussain may have been a victim of a misquote. I simply think that persons would be expected to dress conservatively and not partake in alcohol consumptions, gambling etc. No problem scotsboy, it takes a big man to apologise. Probably he was misquoted and I fell for it hook, line and sinker.

MadPict
08-Aug-06, 19:42
I simply think that persons would be expected to dress conservatively and not partake in alcohol consumptions, gambling etc.

As I pointed out earlier -


Many of the leisure facilities in the UK are unsuitable for Muslim use due to the presence of alcohol, music & gambling onsite to name just a few of the Muslims concerns. We at Islamic leisure aim to liaise with existing leisure providers and arrange environments that are conducive to Islamic regulations whilst retaining the 'fun factor'. The ultimate aim is to fill the void in the arena of Halal leisure for Muslims.

And the above is to be found on the pages of Islamic Leisure if you're prepared to look.....