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gleeber
14-Aug-04, 11:55
Councillor Michael Foxley, Highland Council vice-convenor has complained that highland culture is not being taught to our children in a fashion that would enable them to be good little heelanders with lack of knowledge of the Gaelic language, Norse links and our ancestors commitment to the church at the core of his complaint.
In an article in the Press and Journal he accuses modern kids in Scotland of being reared on Japanese and American rubbish.
Maybe hes right about that but his insight and commitment about what should be done about it is I believe at best naive and at worst dangerous. :D
If he was writing a message on Caithness.org I fear he would need to be banned for a week for introducing fantasy to our serious and important discussions. ;)
He seems to think that by injecting massive doses of Scottish culture into our children they will become more aware wee heelanders.
Aware of what I wonder?
Aware of their places in society or how to be a nice little boy or girl? That would be a nice wee Gaelic boy or girl in Caithness or, in other parts of the world a nice wee Muslim boy or a nice wee Palestinian girl or a nice wee Jew. Culture isolates people and in extreme cases kills. It is not real and is manufactured in the minds of people. An example of how culture is nothing but fantasy would be a young Afghan girl being brought up in America with no links to her former cultural ties. She would become a nice little American girl with no inherent need to be anything but rich.
Tension between different cultures is still as evident in modern societies as it was in all other times gone by. Black faces white faces, round eyes slant eyes, Arab Jew, Thurso Wick Glebe Shore street. Its all there just for the picking.
Mr Foxley and his romantic notion of cultural happiness is for me just another attempt by an elected official to jump on some strange bandwagon which will enable him and his unexamined cultural fantasies to keep our chains of freedom nicely oiled and able to be presented as democracy a la carte when he needs the numbers for re-election at the next election.
Hes right of course, we fall for it every time. :roll:

trinkie
14-Aug-04, 13:22
Hallo Gleeber, I agree with some of what you said. Our children have to go forward and become Children of their Time. But it is important too, that they know their Roots -
the history, the land it's music and customs .....and the traditions of other races.
Perhaps I'm talking here as a grannie who finds it so hard when the children around me cannot join in with the songs we all used to sing. I have tried to learn their songs without success..
I join in with their school concerts etc, in an effort to keep up.
None of us go to church so we cannot even sing the hymns together. I find this all very sad.
However earlier this year we had a family party with a Country Dance Band, and after the young folk sat for a little while and glowered at us oldies dancing, they then asked if they could join in. At midnight we could not get them off the floor and they said it was the best party they had ever been to. We had offered them some Disco dancing, but they said No Thank you. So there was a Meeting Point after all and we were all very happy. It is important for the different generations to be in touch with one another.
Some of the happiest times of my life were listening to my grannie's stories though I knew I was moving on.....

simian sally
16-Aug-04, 01:23
Was Gaelic ever spoken in Caithness?

kenimac1
16-Aug-04, 07:57
In the Caithness of my youth (40 years ago) I knew no one who spoke Gaelic and we did not strongly regard ourselves as Scottish. At celebrations such as weddings any highland dress wearers instantly identified themselves as being from over e' ord. The preferred dress of the local man was suit, shirt and tie.
The upsurge in 'Scottishness' and in our area the duplication of street signs in Gaelic (originally a spoken language with no written records) can only be viewed as a ploy to entrance gullible tourists.

rich
19-Aug-04, 14:59
People complain about lack of historical awareness, especially lack of local history background in our kids.
But what is history?
James Joyce famously defined it as "a shout in the street."
Is history the record of the glorious and progressive unfolding of Western Civilization?
Is it the chronicle of human beings' violence and bloodlust?
Is it religion?
Is it history?
Is it compiling your family tree?
Is it just a series of sad stories ending badly?
Does it matter?
In my opinion if we are going to take an interest in our kids' education let them be taught useful things like plumbing or electrical wiring and how to fix their parents' computers.

JAWS
19-Aug-04, 18:12
A nation which does not remember it's history is condemned to repeat it's history!

Kenn
19-Aug-04, 22:43
I have always understood gaelic to be the language of The Western Isle,Wester Ross and parts of Sutherland. i would imagine that during The Clearances some of it's speakers migrated to Caithness but it would never have been an indigenous language.
With regards to dress, surely the current Highland Dress was imposed by a romantic Victorian society and bears little resemblance to the plaid that was worn in previous centuries.
It is important that we all learn something of our history be it where our society eminates from or what local events make where we live what is is.To foist this on an unwilling populous how ever would not be either welcome or helpful. For those who choose to learn they will do so with pleasure.

George Brims
20-Aug-04, 12:30
If you want to know where Gaelic was historically spoken in Caithness, look at a map. To the South and West the names are Gaelic and towards the NE they are Norse. Watten is a Norse name but the village was also known as Achingale from Gaelic, so it was probably on the borderline between the two cultures.

Also if you read "The Silver Darlings" by Neil Gunn you will read how the young hero, a native Gael, has to go to Wick and worries about his English. On getting there he is relieved to find people there speaking it no better than him! A wee hit at the Weekers from Dunbeath native Gunn.

htwood
20-Aug-04, 19:12
gleeber says: "An example of how culture is nothing but fantasy would be a young Afghan girl being brought up in America with no links to her former cultural ties. She would become a nice little American girl with no inherent need to be anything but rich."

Pure prejudice, gleeber. I had hoped for better from you.

gleeber
20-Aug-04, 21:15
Htwood, your probably right and i wisna aware of it. :eek:
But I am now :D

marion
23-Aug-04, 03:02
gleeber and htwood have made some interesting comments. Culture along with history has always been of interest to me. When I was in Scotland, Thurso to be exact, I studied a lot of the local culture and history. A local friend shared with me about history of the Highlands dating back to the late 1700s - early 1800s. He loaned me a book to read "The Highland Clearances." It was about the English when they cleared much of the Northern Highlands, with the help of clan chiefs. The English then populated those areas with their sheep. The manner in which the English cleared the local Scottish people from their land was horrendous and most savage of anything I had ever read. It was definitely a black period for the English in the manner in which they treated the Scottish people. That is how Australia, Canada and the USA received so many of their Scottish immigrants.

During my time at the Thurso Naval Base I found the local people very friendly and I had much respect and interest in them and their culture. Nine years after my time at the Naval Station I returned with my wife and children on a tour of the Highlands and stayed with a local family for seven days at their bed & breakfast in Thurso. That time I spent in the Highlands is utmost in my memory.

I wonder how many of you know about this part of your history?

JAWS
23-Aug-04, 20:20
If you read the book I think you did, if you can, try and get hold of it again. If you read it carefully I think you will find that the English involved was the Duke of Sutherland. He was married to a local lady and I think he got the title via that marriage and she was the main instigator who persuaded him to clear the Glens.
He seemed to have little interest in his Sutherland Estates having far more interest in his more lucrative Estates south of the Border.

The Clearances themselves were carried out by his Factors, two low-land Fly-boys on the make, who didn’t care what they did to get the job done.
Where possible they would force a rushed sale of good land for a fraction of it’s value and then but it themselves before anybody else had the chance.
In forcing the people out they were ably assisted by thugs from Inverness and threats of Eternal Damnation from many of the Ministers of the local Kirks if the local people didn’t comply.
The picture of hoards of English rampaging through the Glens is as realistic as Hollywood’s portrayal of the Wild West.
The whole thing was carried out by Scots and legitimised by Scottish Courts.

Apart from Sutherland, the rest of the Highlands were cleared by the Clan Chiefs in order to sell lands of the Clans they had abandoned in order to pay off the debts they had run up living the high life in Edinburgh and London! They demanded cash rents from people living in a cashless society knowing full well they couldn’t pay up and then evicted them from their homes.

sassylass
28-Aug-04, 06:25
Gleeber, what do you mean by "Culture isolates people and in extreme cases kills."? Are you saying that all people in all cultures are narrowminded and unaccepting of folks who are different, hence wars are begun? That would be a gross generalization.

You say "It is not real and is manufactured in the minds of people.". Do you believe that everyone, in every culture, is putting on airs and faking their lives? That would be insulting to those of us who try to live our lives honestly and thoughtfully.

In my opinion, culture is history and habits and traditions. We learn and develop our ways from our parents, who learned from their parents, and so on and so on. We keep the good and leave the bad lessons. We all have an inherent need "to belong". We all need friends, and we all need to belong to a society which we understand and where we feel comfortable. If we are comfortable with ourselves, we are more tolerant with people of different cultures.

Maybe I have got your meaning all wrong.:eek: Maybe you're just saying we're all the same under the skin and that we should be content with our lot in life.:o) Maybe you're just upset with Mr. Foxley and his attempt to drum up votes. ;)

gleeber
29-Aug-04, 19:11
Sassylass, Its interesting that you ask me what I mean and then add your own interpretations but if the cap fits.............wear it. :D
I didnt need meaning. I felt it! When I read councillor Foxleys complaint that Scottish cultural awareness was being smothered by the “Disney type culture of America and Japan” I had a spontaneous reaction. Is his perception of American culture another gross generalisation or is he getting close to the mark? I wouldnt dare comment!
My gripe is with the idea that cultural integrity and its side effects of isolation and division will heal the gaping wound in our societies and by ignoring the negative sides we can live in blissful cultural contentment. Absolute tosh!
I recognise your idea of culture, society, family and the need to belong. Its fortunate for you that you feel comfortable in your society. Do the14 million children in your culture living below the poverty line have different needs? This cultural comfort you talk about seems to be a wee bit exclusive and dare I say it, reliant on the buck in your pocket. This is not prejudice towards Americans, its a trait your society thrives on as does my own. htwood got a wee bit upset by my recognition of this fact. I wonder why? Whats wrong with making money and having more money than the family next door. Its not a crime.
As for people faking it. Your words! I would say people have difficulties with being authentic. These difficulties are probably associated with your notion of cultural belonging and what’s expected of us. I don’t see that as faking it. See how on another thread Golach jumps in to support another old foggy because his idea of cultural contentment is reliant on people doing what they are told. These old foggies should grow down and learn something from the eccentricity of youth, although I reckon its too late for some of them. ;)
Still the world rumbles towards its own extinction oblivious to the wonders and romance of your notion of cultural belonging and happiness.
And yes, I do believe we are the same under the skin and no I dont think we should lie back and accept our lot.
That seems to be your way!
And no, Mr Foxleys attempt to woo the cultural vote from my kilt wearing Gealic talking church-going cultural brothers doesn’t upset me, it amuses me.
I am just noticing it and being made aware of the dangers of culture.

golach
29-Aug-04, 20:16
GLEEBER!!!!. How dare you call me an old FOGGIE, ok I am 64 years old but man I have had a life and still am having one!!!! I have had 6 different vocations since I was 16 every thing from an apprentice Carpet Weaver, Merchant Seaman, Waiter, Cocktail Barman, Wine Butler, Postman & for the last 32 years I have held many different jobs in HM Customs & Excise.
I have never been out of work for more than a month in all that time apart from taking part in Industrial Action.
I have been young also Gleeber an item these so called hard done by bairns who constantly gripe " I have to commit anti social activities because there was nothing to do". I never had to do that!!!! I had been around the World twice by the time I was old enough to drive.
Again Gleeber I admit I am not in Thurso or Wick so I have not seen your Street Bairnies showing off, but hey I live in the BEEG City and your bairnies are still throwing their rattles out of their prams compared with down here.
I apologise for changing the thread of this posting.
But Gleeber
Quote "cultural contentment is reliant on people doing what they are told. These old foggies should grow down and learn something from the eccentricity of youth, although I reckon its too late for some of them "Unquote.
Gleeber I love when you get on your soapbox,are you after Mr Foxley's job.
Tell me what is the eccentricity of youth? I would really enjoy becoming as enlightened as yourself. As a committed Foggie I am willing to learn, and listen that is something that you cannot say about the Yobbos who go Street Racing

Golach

sassylass
01-Sep-04, 04:17
whoaaaa Gleeber. I've read your post several times and my head is spinning. What an illogical bunch of claptrap! Seems like you got your Anthropology and Economics notes mixed up in school. What makes you think that cultural comfort has anything to do with money? :roll:

Frankly, I find your comments to be twisted, negative, and slightly condescending, but certainly you are entitled to them. And congratulations on being one of the few men who can out talk me :p

sassylass
09-Sep-04, 02:49
....Gleeber?

Errogie
16-Mar-06, 19:02
I think you have to remember where the good Councillor Dr.Foxley (vice convenor and probably the next convenor) of Highland Council is coming from. He was brought up in London with a Macdonald mother from Lochaber and has acheived his life's ambition of moving back to the misty family croft in the shadow of Ben Nevis.

As well as an enthusiasm for Gaelic he also has a healthy disrespect for the landed gentry who have blighted the highland landscape and population. Of course he sometimes over states the case but the general effect is in the right direction. He is a local G.P. and once famously remarked during a somewhat turgid (sorry!) debate on the inefficiency of a local sewage works that the locals should try eating less roughage!

abalone
16-Mar-06, 19:29
culture to me is just a way of life.I'm British/English and born in Hampshire.I now live in Nottinghamshire and the culture here is different to the culture of where I was brought up,in a village that had Mummers and Morris dancers and different sayings for things.Here they call being cold nesh and they mash the tea.When we played games if we wanted to have a break we would cross our fingers and say scribs.There is a different word for it in other parts of the country.

weefee
17-Mar-06, 12:09
ok... i understand that "our culture" is important, but surely we should make sure that the kids can do the basics first, i read recently that 1 in 4 children leave primary school and don't meet the minimum requirements for reading , writing or maths. In a recent BBC poll, 5% of 16-24 year olds thought the spanish armada defeat was materminded by Gandolf and 15% thought that the Orange March was to celebrate the victory at Helm's Deep, a battle that only took place in The Two Towers, Lord of the Rings!!!!

Surely Culture is something that starts at home, at school there may be children of several cultures (my daughter has a philipino child in her class) It is being reinforced every day that we live in a multi-cultural society, and how does said minister propose we teach this culture when on burns day several schools and nurseries were banned from serving haggis as it didn't fall into the healthy eating criteria.

Culture changes all the time, culture is different for everyone....culture is something that is learned during a lifetime not just school time....our children need to learn the basics of education first.....

knightofeth
17-Mar-06, 16:41
In a recent BBC poll, 5% of 16-24 year olds thought the spanish armada defeat was materminded by Gandolf and 15% thought that the Orange March was to celebrate the victory at Helm's Deep, a battle that only took place in The Two Towers, Lord of the Rings!!!!

I find that hard to believe!

JAWS
18-Mar-06, 03:33
I don't find it hard to believe, knightofeth. A couple of years ago Professor of History at, I believe it was Aberdeen, pointed out that the main problem he had in teaching the History of Scotland was convincing his students that the version of history he was teaching was the accurate version and that it was Braveheart which contained the inaccuracies.

If Scottish Students at a Scottish University have an almost completely erroneous understanding of one of their greatest National Heroes then don't be surprised about confusion over the Spanish Armada or the Orange Marches.

Somebody will correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to think that History is now a subject which is now not compulsory at Secondary School so I'm not surprised youngsters have so little knowledge.
They can't be expected to learn if they are not being taught.

willowbankbear
18-Mar-06, 03:42
I don't find it hard to believe, knightofeth. A couple of years ago Professor of History at, I believe it was Aberdeen, pointed out that the main problem he had in teaching the History of Scotland was convincing his students that the version of history he was teaching was the accurate version and that it was Braveheart which contained the inaccuracies.

If Scottish Students at a Scottish University have an almost completely erroneous understanding of one of their greatest National Heroes then don't be surprised about confusion over the Spanish Armada or the Orange Marches.

Somebody will correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to think that History is now a subject which is now not compulsory at Secondary School so I'm not surprised youngsters have so little knowledge.
They can't be expected to learn if they are not being taught.

Its compulsory for first & second year Jaws, After that we take Geography-Well I was good at Geography

pultneytooner
18-Mar-06, 10:33
'The Highlands of Scotland may sell, at present, perhaps from £200,000 to £300,000 worth of lean cattle per annum. The same ground will produce twice as much mutton, and there is wool into the bargain. If covered with the coarse-woolled breed of sheep, the wool might be worth about £300,000, the value of which can only be doubled by the art of the manufacturer; whereas the same ground under the Cheviot or True Mountain breed will produce at least £900,000 of fine wool.'

Sir John Sinclair of Ulbster.