View Full Version : George Bush.
Waterboarding is not torture, if it's not I would like to know how you categorise it.
I just find it so difficult to comprehend how America voted in such numbers for a man who is obviously not in the same universe let alone on the same planet.
teddybear1873
09-Nov-10, 20:07
Waterboarding is not torture, if it's not I would like to know how you categorise it.
I just find it so difficult to comprehend how America voted in such numbers for a man who is obviously not in the same universe let alone on the same planet.
And then they voted Obama. Who is the better of the 2?
If it got the right result and saved a few lives and buildings then I am all for it, Al qaeda do not play by humanist rules, so therefore do not need to be treated as humans.
teddybear1873
09-Nov-10, 20:13
If it got the right result and saved a few lives and buildings then I am all for it, Al qaeda do not play by humanist rules, so therefore do not need to be treated as humans.
Agreed. We will never know how many lives it saved. Al Queda is going to be around for a long time. In my book, do whatever it takes to get rid of this 'Pure Evil" around the world.
So George Bush gave the thumbs up for waterboarding. Their still alive arn't they?
False intelligence is thrown around so easily (look at the WMD's for instance) it might turn out that an innocent civilian is mistaken for a terrorist and is then treated in this way. I think that's the worrying thing about it. I remember watching a documentary on waterboarding where journalists volunteered to be interrogated in this way. Can't remember the exact numbers but the government allowed something like maximum of 20 minutes of interrogation and no more. The journalists had a tennis ball in there hand they had to drop when they couldn't stand it. I think they lasted 3 or 4 seconds and said it terrified them. Shocking treatment!
teddybear1873
09-Nov-10, 20:16
False intelligence is thrown around so easily (look at the WMD's for instance) it might turn out that an innocent civilian is mistaken for a terrorist and is then treated in this way. I think that's the worrying thing about it. I remember watching a documentary on waterboarding where journalists volunteered to be interrogated in this way. Can't remember the exact numbers but the government allowed something like maximum of 20 minutes of interrogation and no more. The journalists had a tennis ball in there hand they had to drop when they couldn't stand it. I think they lasted 3 or 4 seconds and said it terrified them. Shocking treatment!
Shocking treatment that saves lifes..................probably.
"Are we fighting a war on terror or aren't we? Was it or was it not started by Islamic people who brought it to our shores in July 2002, and in New York Sept 112001 and have continually threatened to do so since?
Were people from all over the world, not brutally murdered that day in London, and in downtown Manhattan , and in a field in Pennsylvania ?
Did nearly three thousand men, women and children die a horrible, burning or crushing death that day, or didn't they?
And I'm supposed to care that a few Taliban were claiming to be tortured by a justice system of the nation they come from and are fighting against in a brutal insurgency.
I'll start caring when Osama bin Laden turns himself in and repents for incinerating all those innocent people on 9/11 and 7/7.
I'll care about the Koran when the fanatics in the Middle East start caring about the Holy Bible, the mere belief of which is a crime punishable by beheading in Afghanistan
I'll care when these thugs tell the world they are sorry for hacking off Nick Berg's head while Berg screamed through his gurgling slashed throat.
I'll care when the cowardly so-called 'insurgents' in Afghanistan come out and fight like men instead of disrespecting their own religion by hiding in mosques and behind women and children.
I'll care when the mindless zealots who blow themselves up in search of Nirvana care about the innocent children within range of their suicide bombs.
I'll care when the British media stops pretending that their freedom of speech on stories is more important than the lives of the soldiers on the ground or their families waiting at home to hear about them when something happens.
In the meantime, when I hear a story about a British soldier roughing up an Insurgent terrorist to obtain information.
I don't care.
When I see a wounded terrorist get shot in the head when he is told not to move because he might be booby-trapped, you can take this to the bank:
I don't care...
When I hear that a prisoner - who was issued a Koran and a prayer mat, and 'fed special food' that is paid for by my taxes - is complaining that his holy book is being 'mishandled,' you can absolutely believe in your heart of hearts:
I don't care.
And oh, by the way, I've noticed that sometimes it's spelled 'Koran' and other times 'Quran.' Well, believe me!!
I don't care!!
C3......Think that says it all really, I just hope we in the West wake up from our slumber before its too late....:(
"Are we fighting a war on terror or aren't we? Was it or was it not started by Islamic people who brought it to our shores in July 2002, and in New York Sept 112001 and have continually threatened to do so since?
Were people from all over the world, not brutally murdered that day in London, and in downtown Manhattan , and in a field in Pennsylvania ?
Did nearly three thousand men, women and children die a horrible, burning or crushing death that day, or didn't they?
And I'm supposed to care that a few Taliban were claiming to be tortured by a justice system of the nation they come from and are fighting against in a brutal insurgency.
I'll start caring when Osama bin Laden turns himself in and repents for incinerating all those innocent people on 9/11 and 7/7.
I'll care about the Koran when the fanatics in the Middle East start caring about the Holy Bible, the mere belief of which is a crime punishable by beheading in Afghanistan
I'll care when these thugs tell the world they are sorry for hacking off Nick Berg's head while Berg screamed through his gurgling slashed throat.
I'll care when the cowardly so-called 'insurgents' in Afghanistan come out and fight like men instead of disrespecting their own religion by hiding in mosques and behind women and children.
I'll care when the mindless zealots who blow themselves up in search of Nirvana care about the innocent children within range of their suicide bombs.
I'll care when the British media stops pretending that their freedom of speech on stories is more important than the lives of the soldiers on the ground or their families waiting at home to hear about them when something happens.
In the meantime, when I hear a story about a British soldier roughing up an Insurgent terrorist to obtain information.
I don't care.
When I see a wounded terrorist get shot in the head when he is told not to move because he might be booby-trapped, you can take this to the bank:
I don't care...
When I hear that a prisoner - who was issued a Koran and a prayer mat, and 'fed special food' that is paid for by my taxes - is complaining that his holy book is being 'mishandled,' you can absolutely believe in your heart of hearts:
I don't care.
And oh, by the way, I've noticed that sometimes it's spelled 'Koran' and other times 'Quran.' Well, believe me!!
I don't care!!
C3......Think that says it all really, I just hope we in the West wake up from our slumber before its too late....:(
Well thought out,
My nephew is in the army, he seldom if ever will be drawn on his experiences whilst abroad, but his biggest fear and the biggest fear among many of our young men is being caught by the Taliban,
death and dying are not as feared as the Taliban, that in itself must say something.
IMHO George W., despite being the butt of many hilarious 'jokers' was the right leader at the right time.
I distinctly remember Colin Powel showing presentation after presentation of aerial and satellite photos of chemical weapons labs being used, both mobile and fixed and activity associated with weaponising nerve agents etc.
My only explanation for this is that the west were hoaxed by the Bathist regime. For what reason I don’t know, but it sure as hell backfired.
And for me, you can rip all their fingernails off and electrocute their wotsits if it will stop more terror attacks or protect our troops and allies.
All I wanted to know was, is it torture or not?
I was not looking for a debate on the wrongs or rights of it.
teddybear1873
09-Nov-10, 23:36
All I wanted to know was, is it torture or not?
I was not looking for a debate on the wrongs or rights of it.
To 'Pure Evil' NO.
To anyone else YES.
"Are we fighting a war on terror or aren't we? Was it or was it not started by Islamic people who brought it to our shores in July 2002, and in New York Sept 112001 and have continually threatened to do so since?
Were people from all over the world, not brutally murdered that day in London, and in downtown Manhattan , and in a field in Pennsylvania ?
Did nearly three thousand men, women and children die a horrible, burning or crushing death that day, or didn't they?
And I'm supposed to care that a few Taliban were claiming to be tortured by a justice system of the nation they come from and are fighting against in a brutal insurgency.
I'll start caring when Osama bin Laden turns himself in and repents for incinerating all those innocent people on 9/11 and 7/7.
I'll care about the Koran when the fanatics in the Middle East start caring about the Holy Bible, the mere belief of which is a crime punishable by beheading in Afghanistan
I'll care when these thugs tell the world they are sorry for hacking off Nick Berg's head while Berg screamed through his gurgling slashed throat.
I'll care when the cowardly so-called 'insurgents' in Afghanistan come out and fight like men instead of disrespecting their own religion by hiding in mosques and behind women and children.
I'll care when the mindless zealots who blow themselves up in search of Nirvana care about the innocent children within range of their suicide bombs.
I'll care when the British media stops pretending that their freedom of speech on stories is more important than the lives of the soldiers on the ground or their families waiting at home to hear about them when something happens.
In the meantime, when I hear a story about a British soldier roughing up an Insurgent terrorist to obtain information.
I don't care.
When I see a wounded terrorist get shot in the head when he is told not to move because he might be booby-trapped, you can take this to the bank:
I don't care...
When I hear that a prisoner - who was issued a Koran and a prayer mat, and 'fed special food' that is paid for by my taxes - is complaining that his holy book is being 'mishandled,' you can absolutely believe in your heart of hearts:
I don't care.
And oh, by the way, I've noticed that sometimes it's spelled 'Koran' and other times 'Quran.' Well, believe me!!
I don't care!!
C3......Think that says it all really, I just hope we in the West wake up from our slumber before its too late....:(
Agree with every word. The last sentence concerns me though, because the majority of people havent woke up .
Although the people who threaten us do not play by the rules, doesn't the very fact that we stay within bounds of decency and international law make our position stronger?
My view has always been that they win twice over if we adapt our morality to accommodate their onslaught, ultimately we end up with less worth fighting for.....
Although the people who threaten us do not play by the rules, doesn't the very fact that we stay within bounds of decency and international law make our position stronger?
My view has always been that they win twice over if we adapt our morality to accommodate their onslaught, ultimately we end up with less worth fighting for.....
That argument is great at making you feel bad, but practically, you have to fight fire with fire.
All I wanted to know was, is it torture or not?
I was not looking for a debate on the wrongs or rights of it.
LIZZ, by the tone of your first post you did make your position very clear, so you must have expected a debate :D
There is no point to having a system of rules, morality and international law to defend if you tear up the rules as soon as it is threatened.
George Brims
10-Nov-10, 00:50
All I wanted to know was, is it torture or not?
I was not looking for a debate on the wrongs or rights of it.
Well if it's not torture, then why did the United States hang at least one Japanese officer as a war criminal for doing it to American POWs?
No-one who has ever experienced it says it's not torture.
sassylass
10-Nov-10, 07:53
Absolutely, just read the definition of the word 'torture' in the dictionary.
FACT: Torture gives you the answers that you want to hear, not intelligence. This has been proven again and again from the inquisition (and prior to it) and in every war fought. It is especially well demonstrated by the second world war.
FACT: G. W. Bush is an idiot (by his own admition) who can bearly tie his shoe laces, nevermind think about what defines torture.
FACT: the current economic situation developed mostly during G.W's term in office. The harsh reality of it hit during Obamas' administration. I think he is doing a pretty good job under pretty bad circumstances, considering he does not have a magic wand to wave to fix everything for the mal contents.
FACT: When Obama says he is against torture, I actually believe him (I don't usually believe politicians, especially when their lips are moving). So intelligence recieved will reflect the real ongoing situations and not the crazed pain and fear induced imaginings of someone trying to stop the torture.
Walter Ego
10-Nov-10, 10:57
FACT: Torture gives you the answers that you want to hear, not intelligence. This has been proven again and again from the inquisition (and prior to it) and in every war fought. It is especially well demonstrated by the second world war.
FACT: G. W. Bush is an idiot (by his own admition) who can bearly tie his shoe laces, nevermind think about what defines torture.
FACT: the current economic situation developed mostly during G.W's term in office. The harsh reality of it hit during Obamas' administration. I think he is doing a pretty good job under pretty bad circumstances, considering he does not have a magic wand to wave to fix everything for the mal contents.
FACT: When Obama says he is against torture, I actually believe him (I don't usually believe politicians, especially when their lips are moving). So intelligence recieved will reflect the real ongoing situations and not the crazed pain and fear induced imaginings of someone trying to stop the torture.
Your comments on GWB and O'bama are not fact - they are your opinion. In ill informed,, it would appear.
Walter Ego
10-Nov-10, 10:58
So if British troops were subjected to waterboarding by a foreign aggressor - would we find that acceptable?
So if British troops were subjected to waterboarding by a foreign aggressor - would we find that acceptable?
If British troops are captured by Al Qeda/Taliban then waterboarding would be the least of their worries.
Duncansby
10-Nov-10, 16:30
Although the people who threaten us do not play by the rules, doesn't the very fact that we stay within bounds of decency and international law make our position stronger?
My view has always been that they win twice over if we adapt our morality to accommodate their onslaught, ultimately we end up with less worth fighting for.....
My thoughts exactly - it surely becomes difficult to condemn barbarous actions if we employ other types of cruelty. And as Ju pointed out torture won't necessarily give you accurate information.
Your comments on GWB and O'bama are not fact - they are your opinion. In ill informed,, it would appear.
"ill informed" - your opinion. Pot, kettle, black, etc, etc.
That argument is great at making you feel bad, but practically, you have to fight fire with fire.
Shocking treatment that saves lifes..................probably.
If it got the right result and saved a few lives and buildings then I am all for it, Al qaeda do not play by humanist rules, so therefore do not need to be treated as humans.
Agreed. We will never know how many lives it saved. Al Queda is going to be around for a long time. In my book, do whatever it takes to get rid of this 'Pure Evil" around the world.
To you all I give you these two quotations:
"The one thing we know about torture is that it was never designed in the first place to get at the actual truth of anything; it was designed in the darkest days of human history to produce false confessions in order to annihilate political and religious dissidents. And that is how it always works: it gets confessions regardless of their accuracy." - Andrew Sullivan
"The strong will resist and the weak will say anything to end the pain." - Ulpian
So George Bush gave the thumbs up for waterboarding. Their still alive arn't they?
What rubbish. Jews from the holocaust in WW2 survived, so what happened to them was all right then? Since when did people only consider a level of human decency when it was there own people being harmed? You want to do what the Taliban would do to our troops? Fine, well then you, my friend, are simply no better than them.
Walter Ego
10-Nov-10, 17:19
"ill informed" - your opinion. Pot, kettle, black, etc, etc.
.
Alan16 - tedious arse.
Fact.;)
Run along, now.
Alan16 - tedious arse.
Fact.;)
Run along, now.
As you seem to be implying that I am some sort of child in comparison, I thank you for your adult post that certainly progressed the debate going on here.
northener
10-Nov-10, 17:25
As you seem to be implying that I am some sort of child in comparison, I thank you for your adult post that certainly progressed the debate going on here.
I think Walters' hit a nerve:Razz
Chill out, Alan16. I believe Mr Ego was pointing out the fact that opinions are different from fact........
"ill informed" - your opinion. Pot, kettle, black, etc, etc.
To you all I give you these two quotations:
"The one thing we know about torture is that it was never designed in the first place to get at the actual truth of anything; it was designed in the darkest days of human history to produce false confessions in order to annihilate political and religious dissidents. And that is how it always works: it gets confessions regardless of their accuracy." - Andrew Sullivan
"The strong will resist and the weak will say anything to end the pain." - Ulpian
What rubbish. Jews from the holocaust in WW2 survived, so what happened to them was all right then? Since when did people only consider a level of human decency when it was there own people being harmed? You want to do what the Taliban would do to our troops? Fine, well then you, my friend, are simply no better than them.
Admirable sentiments and very fashionable.....but, George W is convinced that info was used to thwart attacks. If it works, it works.
Admirable sentiments and very fashionable.....but, George W is convinced that info was used to thwart attacks. If it works, it works.
...
This argument seems to be very circular. You say "if it works let's use it" I saw, but it probably doesn't work and lay people like you and me have no idea if it works or not!
I think Walters' hit a nerve:Razz
Chill out, Alan16. I believe Mr Ego was pointing out the fact that opinions are different from fact........
Quite. And I was merely pointing out that in one sentence he goes from calling what someone else said was a fact, an opinion, which he expressed as... a fact!
Round and round we go.
.....but, George W is convinced that info was used to thwart attacks. If it works, it works.
He was also convinced that there were WMD, information he obtained through torture. I would say: If it works? It works? No.
...
This argument seems to be very circular. You say "if it works let's use it" I saw, but it probably doesn't work and lay people like you and me have no idea if it works or not!
How can you say it "probably doesn't work", then go on to say "lay people like you and me have no idea if it works or not" ?
Contradicting yourself in a single sentence there.
I do agree that "we" probably don't know if it works, and in such circumstances I would look to the experts.
In the case of extracting information, I imagine the CIA/national security people must certainly be "up there" with the experts.
Duncansby
10-Nov-10, 19:58
Admirable sentiments and very fashionable.....but, George W is convinced that info was used to thwart attacks. If it works, it works.
He was also of the opinion that Mexico was part of the USA :roll:
As I said Jokers. The fact is that GW was President of the USA. That puts a person in a unique position with several thousand very well informed and clever advisors, to really know what is going on in the world.
If he says that Canary Wharf is still standing, and therefore several thousand people are still alive, as a result of a few terrorists being mistreated, I am more than happy with that.
If he says that Canary Warfe is still standing, and therefore several thousand people are still alive, as a result of a few terrorists being mistreated, I am more than happy with that.
Hear Hear, got to agree with you
teddybear1873
10-Nov-10, 20:32
"ill informed" - your opinion. Pot, kettle, black, etc, etc.
To you all I give you these two quotations:
"The one thing we know about torture is that it was never designed in the first place to get at the actual truth of anything; it was designed in the darkest days of human history to produce false confessions in order to annihilate political and religious dissidents. And that is how it always works: it gets confessions regardless of their accuracy." - Andrew Sullivan
"The strong will resist and the weak will say anything to end the pain." - Ulpian
What rubbish. Jews from the holocaust in WW2 survived, so what happened to them was all right then? Since when did people only consider a level of human decency when it was there own people being harmed? You want to do what the Taliban would do to our troops? Fine, well then you, my friend, are simply no better than them.
Lets get one thing out of the way. If you explain to me that Jews from WW2 are the same type of people as the Taliban (even though the Taliban arn't people in my eyes) then your rant is correct.
Well if it's not torture, then why did the United States hang at least one Japanese officer as a war criminal for doing it to American POWs?
No-one who has ever experienced it says it's not torture.
Hmm - thought that the Japs had stuck a hosepipe down into the POW's stomach, after rolling them in barbed wire (saw pics in the JEATH museum in Kanchaniburi) - bit different from putting a cloth over the face of someone and pouring water over it? one does not die from that, but think having a fully charged hosepipe shoved into your guts might...
Duncansby
10-Nov-10, 22:16
As I said Jokers. The fact is that GW was President of the USA. That puts a person in a unique position with several thousand very well informed and clever advisors, to really know what is going on in the world.
If he says that Canary Wharf is still standing, and therefore several thousand people are still alive, as a result of a few terrorists being mistreated, I am more than happy with that.
So when GW made such idiotic statements is that a deliberate rouse to lull his enemys into a false sense of security? I'm sure he had many talented and well informed advisors but I'm afraid I'll never be convinced that the man was intellegent.
So when GW made such idiotic statements is that a deliberate rouse to lull his enemys into a false sense of security? I'm sure he had many talented and well informed advisors but I'm afraid I'll never be convinced that the man was intellegent.
You don't get to be defacto ruler of the world by being an idiot!
Aaldtimer
11-Nov-10, 04:07
You don't get to be defacto ruler of the world by being an idiot!
You're quite wrong there Ducs, the fact is that Dubya was a complete failure in every business enterprise that his daddy put him into.
Then daddy had the brilliant idea of puting him into politics, with all the bucks behind him, to be a puppet President.
You don't think that he ever actually made a decision of any note do you?
Mouthpiece is all he ever was...usually with his foot in it!
We're still trying to recover from the consequences...but the Bushes are fine , with all their contacts in oil, Saudi royals etc.
Yeh, the Smirking Gunslinger is doing just fine![disgust]
You're quite wrong there Ducs, the fact is that Dubya was a complete failure in every business enterprise that his daddy put him into.
Then daddy had the brilliant idea of puting him into politics, with all the bucks behind him, to be a puppet President.
You don't think that he ever actually made a decision of any note do you?
Mouthpiece is all he ever was...usually with his foot in it!
We're still trying to recover from the consequences...but the Bushes are fine , with all their contacts in oil, Saudi royals etc.
Yeh, the Smirking Gunslinger is doing just fine![disgust]
Interesting that you associate business success with intelligence, there are many very clever people who have failed to make a successful business career, and likewise some billionaires who have little (if any) academic achievements.
I personally do not know the ins and outs of GWs business ventures, but know he managed a BA in History at Yale and an MBA at Harvard, I would suggest that he is far from an idiot, but that is my personal opinion.
You're quite wrong there Ducs, the fact is that Dubya was a complete failure in every business enterprise that his daddy put him into.
Then daddy had the brilliant idea of puting him into politics, with all the bucks behind him, to be a puppet President.
You don't think that he ever actually made a decision of any note do you?
Mouthpiece is all he ever was...usually with his foot in it!
We're still trying to recover from the consequences...but the Bushes are fine , with all their contacts in oil, Saudi royals etc.
Yeh, the Smirking Gunslinger is doing just fine![disgust]
Yeh, yeh, yeh, and your informed source for all this is?[lol]
Lets get one thing out of the way. If you explain to me that Jews from WW2 are the same type of people as the Taliban (even though the Taliban arn't people in my eyes) then your rant is correct.
How peculiar, was that not the very argument of the Germans in justifying the masacre of Jews: they were considered vermin. It is a slippery slope to eugenics when people are lumped together as "inferior humans".
Again:
*the second world war proved that you got better intelligence when you used your brain instead of the barbarity of torture. Once in while, due to the natture of probabilities, you will get some useful information from torture. Most of the time you get rubbish which ends up burying the truth.
* When people are accused and punished, without being able to defend themselves in a court of law, it is a short while until we loose what we consider our rights and are considered little more than vermin or animals.
Duncansby
11-Nov-10, 11:29
I personally do not know the ins and outs of GWs business ventures, but know he managed a BA in History at Yale and an MBA at Harvard, I would suggest that he is far from an idiot, but that is my personal opinion.
Probably before the drink and drugs addled his brain.
On a more serious note though. There are different types of intelligence and just because someone may have achieved a degree doesn't necessarily mean they will make the 'cleverest' decisions.
Probably before the drink and drugs addled his brain.
On a more serious note though. There are different types of intelligence and just because someone may have achieved a degree doesn't necessarily mean they will make the 'cleverest' decisions.
Totally agree, the point I was trying to make, that bad business decisions do not make you an idiot (sic).
If you love your fellow humans you cannot fail to recognize torture when you see it.
What you may think of the recipient of the torture is neither here nor there.
Certainly, it is hard to love people who blow up office buildings, stone women to death and refuse to listen to Beethoven.
But that does not make them inhuman.
On the contrary, it makes them all too human.
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.