View Full Version : Poppies
When I was young I used to wear a poppy with pride to show support for those who served our country in the Second World War, which seemed like a very long time ago to a young girl in the 60s and 70s. This may sound silly but at that time I hoped that by the time I became old there would be no need for Remembrance because we'd learned our lessons and there would be be no more wars that British or Scottish citizens would take part in.
How wrong I was. First the Falklands war came as a total shock to my naive beliefs. There followed the wars in the former Yugoslavia and then Afghanistan and Iraq. I see advertisements on TV featuring brave young lads who've been injured fighting in faraway lands in wars I couldn't have envisaged as a youngster and it makes me so sad.
I haven't yet bought a poppy this year but I shall do so and I encourage everyone to do the same. Our injured military personnel deserve our help irrespective of whether you supported any of these wars. Please be generous.
I agree entirely.
The poppy appeal is not about whether people agree with the politics of war, it is support for people who have served their country when required.
annemarie482
07-Nov-10, 01:52
i have already bought 4 poppys this year as i always give when i see them collecting x
i shall certainly wear mine with pride.
Aaldtimer
07-Nov-10, 04:14
I haven't yet bought a poppy this year but I shall do so and I encourage everyone to do the same. Our injured military personnel deserve our help irrespective of whether you supported any of these wars. Please be generous.
Sorry Crayo, I can't agree!
The Earl Haig Fund, which is the Poppy Appeal is a disgrace.
Why should our afflicted, wounded soldiers have to rely on charity?
The Government sent them to war, the Government should be responsible for any support they require as a consequence.
There should be no need for charity in one of the richest Nations in the world![disgust]
Sorry Crayo, I can't agree!
The Earl Haig Fund, which is the Poppy Appeal is a disgrace.
I can't agree with that.
How can a fund, set up to help veterans and employ the wounded be a disgrace?
Perhaps the NEED for such a charity is worthy of questioning, but that should be aimed at the politicians, not the charity.
I for one believe the Earl Haig Fund is one of the most worthy charities there is.
Aaldtimer
07-Nov-10, 05:13
I for one believe the Earl Haig Fund is one of the most worthy charities there is.
Then you perpetuate the non-responsibility of the Governments actions.
The Government put them in danger, they hold the responsibility of their action![disgust]
Then you perpetuate the non-responsibility of the Governments actions.
The Government put them in danger, they hold the responsibility of their action![disgust]
I would rather perpetuate the non-responsibility if the government, and show my thanks and financial support to people who have made sacrifices for me, than see them worse off to suit my own political agenda.
Don't get me wrong, I would prefer the government to give our veterans more, but refusing to support such charities is not going to do any good.
Sorry Crayo, I can't agree!
The Earl Haig Fund, which is the Poppy Appeal is a disgrace.
Why should our afflicted, wounded soldiers have to rely on charity?
The Government sent them to war, the Government should be responsible for any support they require as a consequence.
There should be no need for charity in one of the richest Nations in the world![disgust]
I can understand your argument but I can't agree with you Aaldtimer. We all know that 'Government' is not the best way to lead or administer any country but for better or worse it's the best we've got. Our government is democratically elected by the people for the people and so it is YOU and I who send our servicemen and women to war. It follows then that YOU and I are responsible for any support they require as a consequence.
The British military have been involved in wars almost every year since 1945 because the Government we elected chose to send in the troops. If we are to wish it otherwise we must use our vote at every election to push for change. Meanwhile the least we can do is remember those servicemen and women who for whatever reason gave their today for all our tomorrows.
John Little
07-Nov-10, 09:31
I buy a poppy and wear it because better men than me are more than armchair theorists. They are prepared to make a career where they may have to put their lives on the line to keep me and mine safe.
What we have in our daily lives has been bought dearly, and the world being what it is, a new dark age is not unthinkable. All that is necessary for the triumph of absolutism, totalitarianism or militarism is that they are not resisted.
Whether the fund should be charity or not is another issue. The Haig fund was born in the hungry 20s when money was direly scant and there was a general strike. The government did not have the money to do anything of much and was cutting back in all directions. That's why it was set up.
There does not seem to have been a logical point to winding it up and replacing it with government funding. Where would that point have been?
The fund does good work. Buying the poppy, for me, is little enough.
northener
07-Nov-10, 09:39
Then you perpetuate the non-responsibility of the Governments actions.
The Government put them in danger, they hold the responsibility of their action![disgust]
In an ideal world, Aaldtimer, in an ideal world.
I agree with your sentiment wholeheartedly, it's the same as saying we shouldn't need the RNLI or any charity whatsoever that supplies funding and support for UK causes.
But this is reality.
I take it you don't buy poppies or supply funds for, say, cancer charities or the SSPCA?
billmoseley
07-Nov-10, 10:44
i buy a poppy each year and some times allot more than one but every time i do so i remember those who have died or been injured. i believe that if you remember those who have died a little piece of them lives on. so go out and buy one and remember. never mind who should be funding what it's about those brave souls.
tonkatojo
07-Nov-10, 11:01
i buy a poppy each year and some times allot more than one but every time i do so i remember those who have died or been injured. i believe that if you remember those who have died a little piece of them lives on. so go out and buy one and remember. never mind who should be funding what it's about those brave souls.
I'll back this sentiment.
I seldom make comment on this page, but I feel very strong about this subject. It is sad that our service people have to rely on charity, but surely until the government does this, then we should help if we can, if you don't want to that's up to you. Please don't try to encourage others not to help. When I was younger and worked near Erskine house we used to give a gift of money at christmas time so that sweets and tobaccoo could be bought. I had relations injured in the 1st and 2nd war, and feel sad young men are being injured or will live with the horror of what they witness.
I agree with a lot of what's been said above, like the government not providing for our troops but they've had plenty time since WW2 to rectify that situation, why is it such a surprise that they don't...after all all they don't even look after them properly when they're at the 'front' ie, no body armour, sh..rubbish vehicles as you'll remember from the news...which seems to have gone all quiet now!!!! However these people are our protection and until we get a government to do something we should help, as previously mentioned the Erskine Home/s looks after our wounded since 1920 or there abouts..see TV advert so please buy a Poppy, wear with pride and know you have helped a little or better still look at Erskine's site and try and give a donation if you can, you'll feel better for it, honestly. Like Little John says better they than us. :)
John Little
07-Nov-10, 16:03
"Like Little John says better they than us. "
If that is me you are speaking of, I do not think I said that.
Sorry L J thought it was you, memory blip or 'junior moment' :( G
I, like Crayola, always naively assumed that there would come a day when the WW2 veterans, like the WW1 veterans before them, would be in no further need of funding and that the poppy collection would be obsolete. Subsequent wars and conflicts and the resultant casualties mean that our donations are needed as much today as ever.
Without the generosity of the people of this nation, Erskine Hospital could not take care of the many severely wounded servicemen who have served their country. Forget the politics and who's right or wrong, these lads need help now.
I give generously to a few charities close to my heart and maybe you give to ones that you feel strongly about for whatever reason but the Poppy Appeal should be one that EVERYONE gives to. If they were willing to lay down their lives for us then the least we can do is to make a small donation to help them rebuild a life.
It could be argued that many charities should be government funded but until they are I will be giving what I can afford as thanks for what they have sacrificed protecting me and you.
Seems I'll give the unpopular dissenting opinion then:
It's all become a bit too American, it's kind of akin to those who wear flag pins on their lapels.
If you're essentially required to wear them or be white-feathered by some people, then you're not remembering anything and what did people fight and die for then.
To further explain the point Aaldtimer made about Field Marshall Earl Haig, I think it's because of all the needless deaths his planning caused etc, the blatant hypocrisy.
neilsermk1
08-Nov-10, 13:35
Seems I'll give the unpopular dissenting opinion then:
It's all become a bit too American, it's kind of akin to those who wear flag pins on their lapels.
If you're essentially required to wear them or be white-feathered by some people, then you're not remembering anything and what did people fight and die for then.
To further explain the point Aaldtimer made about Field Marshall Earl Haig, I think it's because of all the needless deaths his planning caused etc, the blatant hypocrisy.
Possibly because you are able to give an unpopular dissenting opinion you should be supporting, and remembering the servicemen who died that you have that luxury. And you are not having to write your unpopular opinions in another language.
Possibly because you are able to give an unpopular dissenting opinion you should be supporting, and remembering the servicemen who died that you have that luxury. And you are not having to write your unpopular opinions in another language.
Thank you for - seemingly devoid of irony - proving a point. That's precisely my problem with it, it's a very American attitude. There's a certain masturbatory fawning feel when people discuss the armed forces.
northener
08-Nov-10, 14:27
Seems I'll give the unpopular dissenting opinion then:
It's all become a bit too American, it's kind of akin to those who wear flag pins on their lapels.
If you're essentially required to wear them or be white-feathered by some people, then you're not remembering anything and what did people fight and die for then.
To further explain the point Aaldtimer made about Field Marshall Earl Haig, I think it's because of all the needless deaths his planning caused etc, the blatant hypocrisy.
Thank you for - seemingly devoid of irony - proving a point. That's precisely my problem with it, it's a very American attitude. There's a certain masturbatory fawning feel when people discuss the armed forces.
Hmmm.....
The 'American' comments are way off the mark.
There is no pledge of allegiance to the poppy, it is a mark of rememberance - not national pride. There is no nationalist sentiment attached to it, nor does it represent one nations ideology. It is a mark of solidarity from a grateful people to those who bore the brunt of the nations woes - nothing more.
The comments about Haighs leadership qualities are also way off beam. He was respected by the majority of the troops who served under him. The carnage was the result of modern warfare technology stagnating all possible means of advance, all commanders on both sides were sending thousands of their men to their deaths on a regular basis - that wasn't something that was unique to Haigh.
You should direct your disgust at generals such as Pershing (US) who insisted his troops launch all out assaults on impenetrable positions on the morning of Armistice Day - even though he knew full well that it would all be over by 11:00 hours.
It became 'trendy' in post WW2 left-wing circles to sneer at Haigh and his staff as if they were wholly responsible for the conflict they were fighting in. This has more to do with being anti-establishment than military reality.
Over the years I’ve heard all the debates and listened to all the arguments and now I’ve followed the contributions to this thread. Some people seem to have a need to score political points out of the wearing of the poppy. At the end of the day it’s a symbol of the act of remembrance, nothing more, nothing less.
Whether a person chooses to wear a poppy or not is their prerogative. That freedom to choose was one of many freedoms secured for us by those who fought on our behalf.
I rarely wear a poppy, even after having had a full career in the military. The reason, I can never get it to stay pinned to my jacket long enough. But I do what I can to support the Royal British Legion Scotland.
In Flanders Fields
In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.
We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.
Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
John McCrae, May 1915
changilass
08-Nov-10, 15:12
I hardly ever wear a poppy, as has been said they wont stay put.
I do however normally have about 20 of the things by the time it comes round to Rememberence Sunday.
Giving to charity, as far as I am concerned, is about supporting them financially, not about wearing a badge saying 'look at me aint I a goody two shoes'.
So whilst I will try to wear my poppy on the actual day, I don't feel the need to wear one for 2 weeks before hand.
Having said that, if they were only sold on the day, or even just for a couple of days afore, then there would be less sales.
So sell them but don't knock anyone who is not wearing one, they may have given in a different way, or have a drawfull at home.
northener
08-Nov-10, 15:26
I very rarely wear a poppy either.
I remember many years ago working in a foundry. When it came to 11:00 on Rememberance Day, everyone disappeared outside for the 'silence' - I carried on working. Much scowling and tutting from those outwith the building.
I'm all for Rememberance Day, but the whole idea is that many fought to preserve this counties' freedom. Part of that freedom is the individual right to decide wether or not to take part in a Rememberance day ritual.
I hardly ever wear a poppy, as has been said they wont stay put.
I bought a Scottish Poppy pin badge exactly for the reason you stated Changi, it stays put.
And I attended the opening ceremony this morning of Edinburgh's Garden of Remembrance situated between the Sir Walter Scott Monument and the Monument to David Livingstone, and laid a wooden cross on behalf of the Edinburgh Royal Naval Association, and I also laid a cross at the Merchant Navy patch. It was wet, cold and very windy, many ex members of all the forces were there also, not glorifiying war, just remembering those who gave their lives for their country.
I felt very proud and humble.
But was shocked to see little female booties in the Royal Marine Band
oldmarine
08-Nov-10, 18:54
When I was young I used to wear a poppy with pride to show support for those who served our country in the Second World War, which seemed like a very long time ago to a young girl in the 60s and 70s. This may sound silly but at that time I hoped that by the time I became old there would be no need for Remembrance because we'd learned our lessons and there would be be no more wars that British or Scottish citizens would take part in.
How wrong I was. First the Falklands war came as a total shock to my naive beliefs. There followed the wars in the former Yugoslavia and then Afghanistan and Iraq. I see advertisements on TV featuring brave young lads who've been injured fighting in faraway lands in wars I couldn't have envisaged as a youngster and it makes me so sad.
I haven't yet bought a poppy this year but I shall do so and I encourage everyone to do the same. Our injured military personnel deserve our help irrespective of whether you supported any of these wars. Please be generous.
Being a WW2 veteran I have always supported wearing the poppy. In the USA I was quite upset during the Vietnam War when civilians spit upon anyone who wore a military uniform. Those in uniform were only following the dictates of their country.
neilsermk1
08-Nov-10, 20:08
Requery,You obviously never served
George Brims
08-Nov-10, 20:47
A collection of random points:
When I were a lad (in the 50s and 60s) WWII was still fresh in the minds of many, and there were still veterans of WWI around too. No question, you bought a poppy. As a member of the Life Boys, I traipsed around farms on my bike selling them. Everyone bought from us without hesitation. If that has changed I find it very sad.
I do see the point that things are becoming American, in that there is a certain amount of nonsense in the tabloid press that almost makes it sound like "supporting the troops" is a loyalty test.
I wish they would take the name of that butcher Haig off the name of the poppy fund.
They don't sell poppies in the US (but we do get a day off work for Veteran's Day).
I don't mind there being a fund to help veterans with luxuries and things that aren't strictly necessary, but that show them people are grateful for their service and sacrifice. I mind a lot that the government doesn't do enough so that the poppy appeal has to help provide necessities.
northener
08-Nov-10, 22:39
...........
I wish they would take the name of that butcher Haig off the name of the poppy fund.
......
Well, he was instrumental in setting up the fund. Along with residential homes for ex- services. Plus he devoted a hell of a lot of his time towards ex-services welfare.
George Brims
09-Nov-10, 00:29
Well, he was instrumental in setting up the fund. Along with residential homes for ex- services. Plus he devoted a hell of a lot of his time towards ex-services welfare.
I knew that. I just think after all this time, and with the historical perspective we now have on what he did (although there was a distinct lack of other ideas as to how to win the war other than attrition) he could maybe be dropped.
Whitewater
09-Nov-10, 01:02
I look at it this way. I'm very greatful for the freedom I have, and the freedom of all of us here to be able express an opinion on the org. It does not really matter what point of view we have, but we have the right to express it. The poppy brings to mind once a year all the brave men and women who gave their lives so that we have that right. I don't think it asks too much of us to wear a poppy in memory of these brave people.
Auldtimer is right, the Government should do more in looking after our injured heros, but it is wrong not to wear a poppy in rememberance of them.
As can be seen from the recent defacing of one of our local memorials, some of our young people know nothing about the sacrifices the young men and women of our past generations made just so that they could have the right to carryout such an act of sacrilege. Perhaps we, in wearing a poppy may make them have second thoughts about carrrying out such an act again.
I hope everyone will show up at the memorial services to show their respect.
I am laying a wreath at the wick memorial again. i hope it wont be too cold this year, I felt so sorry for the veterans standing for so long. I rem,ember when it was time to march off i couldnt feel my feet. I think the old boys should be given seats. It was such a cold day.
It seems to me that the sentiment of wearing a poppy as recognition of the sacrifices made by the members of our armed forces is being hijacked by people for their political beliefs.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/celtic/9168655.stm
http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/3563/celtice.jpg
Welcomefamily
09-Nov-10, 22:14
I will be wearing mine and my thoughts will be with all those families who have lost some one.
Amy-Winehouse
09-Nov-10, 22:20
It seems to me that the sentiment of wearing a poppy as recognition of the sacrifices made by the members of our armed forces is being hijacked by people for their political beliefs.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/celtic/9168655.stm
http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/3563/celtice.jpg
The Irony is lost on these cretins, if the fallen hadnt made the ultimate sacrifice then these buffoons wouldnt be able to make protests like they did on saturday.
And before anyone says it- It was a minority of between 200-400 responsible- there are decent fans of that club who are sickened by this protest.
The Irony is lost on these cretins, if the fallen hadnt made the ultimate sacrifice then these buffoons wouldnt be able to make protests like they did on saturday.
And before anyone says it- It was a minority of between 200-400 responsible- there are decent fans of that club who are sickened by this protest.
Couldn't agree more. And well done to the club for making a statement against them.
The Angel Of Death
09-Nov-10, 22:52
Took them long enough mind you however at least they made a statement now lets see them back it up and find them responsible and turf them out
BillyEspie
10-Nov-10, 00:19
British Poppy - They shall not grow old as we who are left grow old.
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning,
We will remember them.
R.I.P. all the brave fallen soldiers throughout the years
The Pepsi Challenge
16-Nov-10, 04:35
The Irony is lost on these cretins, if the fallen hadnt made the ultimate sacrifice then these buffoons wouldnt be able to make protests like they did on saturday.
And before anyone says it- It was a minority of between 200-400 responsible- there are decent fans of that club who are sickened by this protest.
OK. The spelling was embarrassing, I'll grant that. However, I don't understand all these comments about political stances being embarrassing. Granted, they might be naive, they might be at odds with your own, but I'm more embarrassed with those who have no interest in these matters, or entirely conformist viewpoints. They appear to take an interest: they don't always get it right, they aren't jaded to the correct extent; they're supposed to be!
I'd rather see the Green Brigade being unpopular, asking questions, making statements, than a bunch of conformists who hate it, but don't mind any other statement in the ground so long as some corporation pays for putting it there - and has a nice logo. See that Nike logo? It's shorthand for: 'We like to sell overpriced tack to the gullible rich, by working poor people to disability and death.' Yet, do you see anyone complaining about that? Nope. That's because they paid, and it has a nice 'swoosh'.
What the Green Brigade need to do is chuck a tenner Celtic's way and get a logo, because once you do, well, you could be clubbing seals to death with disabled orphans and the normal suspects would heartily approve of you advertising it in the stadium.
Granted, they might be naive, they might be at odds with your own, but I'm more embarrassed with those who have no interest in these matters, or entirely conformist viewpoints.
I can't think of many people who have "no interest" in these matters. Most people will know somebody who is serving, or has served in the forces.
As for "entirely conformist viewpoints" I don't think you'll find many people on this forum who you could class as conformist by any stretch of the imagination! I think the majority support for the poppy appeal and the troops is a majority viewpoint, not a conformist one.
See that Nike logo? It's shorthand for: 'We like to sell overpriced tack to the gullible rich, by working poor people to disability and death.' Yet, do you see anyone complaining about that? Nope. That's because they paid, and it has a nice 'swoosh'.
What the Green Brigade need to do is chuck a tenner Celtic's way and get a logo, because once you do, well, you could be clubbing seals to death with disabled orphans and the normal suspects would heartily approve of you advertising it in the stadium.
Whatever Nike's working practices, that's not what they're advertising, they're advertising their product, not an ideology. I think that's the major difference here.
The Irony is lost on these cretins, if the fallen hadnt made the ultimate sacrifice then these buffoons wouldnt be able to make protests like they did on saturday.
And before anyone says it- It was a minority of between 200-400 responsible- there are decent fans of that club who are sickened by this protest.
First of all that isn't irony, anyway I find it far more ironic, that people are complaining about what they did and saying that they shouldn't be allowed to do it.
First of all that isn't irony, anyway I find it far more ironic, that people are complaining about what they did and saying that they shouldn't be allowed to do it.
I believe that politics should be separated from sport. The rulers of the league agree.
I believe that politics should be separated from sport. The rulers of the league agree.
I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to sport, it's not really my thing, even in that respect though it seems wrong to me. I mean the league can't make someone give up their rights by going to match.
I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to sport, it's not really my thing, even in that respect though it seems wrong to me. I mean the league can't make someone give up their rights by going to match.
No, but they can punish the club for their supporters making political statements.
rob murray
16-Nov-10, 19:02
I buy a poppy and wear it because better men than me are more than armchair theorists. They are prepared to make a career where they may have to put their lives on the line to keep me and mine safe.
What we have in our daily lives has been bought dearly, and the world being what it is, a new dark age is not unthinkable. All that is necessary for the triumph of absolutism, totalitarianism or militarism is that they are not resisted.
Whether the fund should be charity or not is another issue. The Haig fund was born in the hungry 20s when money was direly scant and there was a general strike. The government did not have the money to do anything of much and was cutting back in all directions. That's why it was set up.
There does not seem to have been a logical point to winding it up and replacing it with government funding. Where would that point have been?
The fund does good work. Buying the poppy, for me, is little enough.
The Haig fund / poppy appeal is run by the British Legion, the leading charity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charitable_organization) providing financial, social and emotional support to those who have served or who are currently serving in the British Armed Forces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Armed_Forces), and their dependants. The legion was formed in 1921 from four groups representing the interests of ex service men / women, the earliest of these groups was the National Federation of Discharged and Demobilized Sailors and Soldiers ( 1917 ) who were opposed to the review of exceptions act (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Review_of_Exceptions_Act&action=edit&redlink=1), which made it possible for people invalided out of the armed forces to be re-conscripted and sent back to war ( whilst other more fitter, but excempt vital war workers sat it all out ). It adopted the slogan "Every man once before any man twice" and "Justice before charity”
The work the legion does is fantastic and includes fighting for war pensions / disability pensions, providing funding for post traumatic stress disorder etc ...all good stuff...but why the need to “fight” in the first place ...being run as a charity is fine as long as the charity is not “entirely” replacing the responsibilities of government, perhaps providing additional funding not replacement funding.....after all the original WW1 vets wanted Justice before Charity.
This topic is very emotive, I personally buy and wear a poppy out of respect for my late father, grand dads and father in law, all who served, so to me its personal, as it was to them being sent to war as teenagers / young adults, just as the much maligned youth of today and tomorrow maybe called...wars are fought by the young...
The Pepsi Challenge
17-Nov-10, 00:59
I believe that politics should be separated from sport. The rulers of the league agree.
Oh, so much ironing to do.
Walter Ego
17-Nov-10, 09:07
Oh, so much ironing to do.
Thus spake the apologist.
The Pepsi Challenge
17-Nov-10, 15:57
Thus spake the apologist.
Ha! Where ego, id goes, too.
northener
17-Nov-10, 18:30
Ha! Where ego, id goes, too.
I like the Wizard of Id.
It was a minority of between 200-400 responsible- there are decent fans of that club who are sickened by this protest.
Some more to step into their shoes in a few short years. Yes I know its the Daily Mail but that doesnt mean to say its not happening. And yes I know theyre not all like that as is proven by the lad who was bullied , who IMO is a credit to his parents, this country and his religion.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1330517/B... (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1330517/Boys-excluded-Facebook-death-threats-classmate.html)
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