View Full Version : Scgtland/Norway
piratelassie
30-Oct-10, 22:34
It is reported that Norway has an oil fund of several Billion Pounds from North Sea Oil revenue. Scotland has Nil Pounds. Well done Jocks. The good news is its not too late.
redeyedtreefrog
30-Oct-10, 22:36
How much does the whole UK have?
It is reported that Norway has an oil fund of several Billion Pounds from North Sea Oil revenue. Scotland has Nil Pounds. Well done Jocks. The good news is its not too late.
For as long as there is oil in the north sea scotland will have no say in what happens with the revenue thats just the way it is
Walter Ego
30-Oct-10, 22:45
It is reported that Norway has an oil fund of several Billion Pounds from North Sea Oil revenue. Scotland has Nil Pounds. Well done Jocks. The good news is its not too late.
No.
The good news is that not all us Scots are taken in by this 'Scottish Oil' crap.
If Norway is so wonderful, can you explain why it's about £5 for a beer and the cost of living is so high it deters many tourists?
And if we were to get a complete disassociation from England - how would you entice anyone North of the border for business and liesure with the huge difference in cost of living? (using Norway as a model...which is exactly what you are doing.).
Our Westminster grubbiement has spent it all! [disgust]
piratelassie
30-Oct-10, 23:06
For as long as there is oil in the north sea scotland will have no say in what happens with the revenue thats just the way it is
Home Rule is the answer
Metalattakk
30-Oct-10, 23:06
If Norway is so wonderful, can you explain why it's about £5 for a beer and the cost of living is so high it deters many tourists?
Norway also has one of the lowest unemployment rates, and one of the highest average hourly wages in the world.
They're quite happy to pay £5 for a pint (if that's even a true figure). They can afford it fine.
piratelassie
30-Oct-10, 23:08
no.
The good news is that not all us scots are taken in by this 'scottish oil' crap.
If norway is so wonderful, can you explain why it's about £5 for a beer and the cost of living is so high it deters many tourists?
And if we were to get a complete disassociation from england - how would you entice anyone north of the border for business and liesure with the huge difference in cost of living? (using norway as a model...which is exactly what you are doing.).
you dont retire at 66 in norway.
Norwegians are popular (and can spell Norway) :roll:
annemarie482
30-Oct-10, 23:23
Norway also has one of the lowest unemployment rates, and one of the highest average hourly wages in the world.
They're quite happy to pay £5 for a pint (if that's even a true figure). They can afford it fine.
thats very true, my oh works for a norweigan company.
the average wages the norweigans recieve, they can easily afford those prices!!
unfortunately for the brit working for them,our mr taxman pockets a huge wedge.
There are so many questions and issues about planning and implementing an independant Scotland and I have never seen a detailed plan about how it would work. Is there one?
A big question I have, would the Crown Estate be expected to give up rights to the area around Scotland's coast and if so, who would be responsible for securing the sea border? Would the English trust the Scots to do this and thereby secure England's border?
And the same with airspace, who would guard it, the SAF?
Could you clarify 'Fund' please.
Do you mean they are sat on a huge pot of money and doing nothing with it?
I've said this before: do you expect a cheque in the post for your share of the revenue from oil if Scotland were to actually go %100 independent (not Salmonds watered down pish of a plan he think will placate voters).
IIRC the offshore oil industry employs thousands of people from Scotland who work in the North Sea. There are many oil related companies who are based in Scotland or have regional HQs in Scotland.
Should we go and annex a fjord, would that help?
Norway has:
Norwegian Army (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Norwegian_Army)
Royal Norwegian Navy (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Royal_Norwegian_Navy)
Royal Norwegian Air Force (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Royal_Norwegian_Air_Force)
Home Guard (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Home_Guard_(Norway))
It's difficult to see how Scotland could afford all that. Norway has conscription too.
Walter Ego
30-Oct-10, 23:48
So, you'd have to take Scotland out of the EU (thus losing all the handouts).
Then you'd have to work out how the farkle you are going to trade with your new foreign neighbous (England, NI and Wales) on a level playing field - quite difficult when your overheads are twice as much as anyone else.:roll:
Now, can someone remind me, just what drives the Norwegian 'economic miracle'? Uh...that will be oil then. Anthing else apart from the odd fly fisherman and tourists who can afford to go there? (Kiss the Americans goodbye straight away...this equals death for the tourist industry if you couple this to the legions of tourists who will no longer go North of the border after seeing prices hiked up to Norwegian levels).[lol] London will pish themselves laughing at the extra revenue from those who refuse to be ripped off in Scotland.
Oil. A finite resource.
What else are you going to do to drive us forward? Sean Connery? Haggis? Uncompetetive shipyards compared to the Far East? A crap infrastructure? Lets not forget the same idiots that decided to invest millions in a toytown failed tramway in Embra as opposed to upgrading the main lifeline to the Far North are the same ones who you are pinning your hopes on for a glorious commercial future.
God help us all, Darien will look like a cheap sideshow compared to what will happen if we follow the Norwegian model.
piratelassie
30-Oct-10, 23:49
Norway has:
Norwegian Army (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Norwegian_Army)
Royal Norwegian Navy (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Royal_Norwegian_Navy)
Royal Norwegian Air Force (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Royal_Norwegian_Air_Force)
Home Guard (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Home_Guard_(Norway))
It's difficult to see how Scotland could afford all that. Norway has conscription too.
sCOTLAND ALREADY HAS ARMED FORCES.
And the same with airspace, who would guard it, the SAF?
Scotland could actually become a world leading Air Force, we've a couple of bases all ready to go (and Go). And we could pick up a fleet of leading edge aircraft for pennies right now. Get all the tonkas they are gonna mothball ( and grab that other boat thing for the water jocks).
Hey presto we could have a bigger Air force and Navy overnight.
sCOTLAND ALREADY HAS ARMED FORCES.
NO, the UK has. And I am correct in thinking your position is for an independent Scotland and an end to the Union?
sCOTLAND ALREADY HAS ARMED FORCES.
Go on.......
How many Scottish soldiers? Who pays for them now, and who will pay for them after independence (always assuming they want to fight for Scotland as apposed to the UK which is what they signed up for) Norway has up to 500,000 armed personel.
What about a Navy and Airforce?
Walter Ego
30-Oct-10, 23:59
sCOTLAND ALREADY HAS ARMED FORCES.
Yes.
The 77th Foot, Atholl Highlanders.
Which isn't maintained by the glorious SNP - but by a private landlord. The rest of the Scots regiments are part of the British armed forces.
Get your facts straight, or just admit that your 'vision of Scotland' is nothing more than an ill-informed, dewy-eyed, load of Mel Gibson based tosh.
And passport & immigration service.
Border protection agency.
Intelligence services.
NHS funding.
Council funding.
Work & pensions dept.
out of the EU or would we spend £billions to regain entry as a new member state?
sCOTLAND ALREADY HAS ARMED FORCES.
Where, ???????? Who???? What???
Walter Ego
31-Oct-10, 00:03
Home Rule is the answer
I'm glad to hear that.
Please present your business model for a truly independant Scotland.
As in not some crap plan for begging off the EU table like some Bogistan warlord.
I await your reply............................................. ...............
Here's a good one; what about all the NI contributions made by the Scots over the years, how are you going to get that back to fund current and future pensioners?
And what about the NHS? You don't think taxes from Scotland alone fund all our hospitals do you?
I suppose the fact that threads like this garner any reaction whatsoever must give hope to illiterate inchoate halfwits everywhere.
They should be eternally grateful to us for that.
Here's a good one; what about all the NI contributions made by the Scots over the years, how are you going to get that back to fund current and future pensioners?
And what about the NHS? You don't think taxes from Scotland alone fund all our hospitals do you?
There are approxx 1 million pensioners in Scotland at the moment, Piratelassie........who is going to fund their pensions if you get your wish?
Lets have a look at likely income. How many employed people in Scotland?
I'm guessing out of a population of about 5 million lets be generous and say 4 million. most of them are on minimum wage so about £1800 a year each payed in income tax, so £720 million a year in direct income tax
There are other sources of income but that would be the main one. Well, after we pay our share of the £85 billion deficit we're bankrupt-sorry
And passport & immigration service.
Border protection agency.
Intelligence services.
NHS funding.
Council funding.
Work & pensions dept.
out of the EU or would we spend £billions to regain entry as a new member state?
Blimey, at least we would have full employment :eek:
Blimey, at least we would have full employment
Aye, dunno where the money t'pay wages is gonna come from though?
:eek:
It is reported that Norway has an oil fund of several Billion Pounds from North Sea Oil revenue. Scotland has Nil Pounds. Well done Jocks. The good news is its not too late.
How do you define not too late?
The fact is that oil production is declining and will continue to do do. I don't think it's a good idea to base the future of our nation on a resource that will decline to nothing over the next 30 to 50 years.
Using Oil as a reason for independence might have been valid in the 70's, but not now. We could not possibly amass a fund in the way that Norway has.
There were figures from the Scottish Government website on a smilar thread on here showing that Scotland (Oil, income tax etc) bring about £9 Billion a year into the UK. Government Spending in Scotland was about £12 Billion a year. Although we may have provided the UK with more in the past, the fact is that Scotland spends more than it makes.
If Scotland were to go independent tomorrow, the figures above would mean a defecit of £3Bn a year. It might even be more once the jobs from the UK armed forces etc were lost.
Also, leaving the UK would be a bit like a messy divorce where the assets and debts are divided. As the UK is currently deeply in debt, we'd have to take some of that on.
So we'd be starting in debt, and spending more than we make.
If you think the government cuts being made now are bad, the cuts made in an independent Scotland would be much, much worse.
My view is that if you love something, you do what is best for it. Financially, the UK is good for Scotland.
piratelassie
31-Oct-10, 02:25
How do you define not too late?
The fact is that oil production is declining and will continue to do do. I don't think it's a good idea to base the future of our nation on a resource that will decline to nothing over the next 30 to 50 years.
Using Oil as a reason for independence might have been valid in the 70's, but not now. We could not possibly amass a fund in the way that Norway has.
There were figures from the Scottish Government website on a smilar thread on here showing that Scotland (Oil, income tax etc) bring about £9 Billion a year into the UK. Government Spending in Scotland was about £12 Billion a year. Although we may have provided the UK with more in the past, the fact is that Scotland spends more than it makes.
If Scotland were to go independent tomorrow, the figures above would mean a defecit of £3Bn a year. It might even be more once the jobs from the UK armed forces etc were lost.
Also, leaving the UK would be a bit like a messy divorce where the assets and debts are divided. As the UK is currently deeply in debt, we'd have to take some of that on.
So we'd be starting in debt, and spending more than we make.
If you think the government cuts being made now are bad, the cuts made in an independent Scotland would be much, much worse.
My view is that if you love something, you do what is best for it. Financially, the UK is good for Scotland.
Oil is not Scotlands only asset by any means.
orkneycadian
31-Oct-10, 02:44
It is reported that Norway has an oil fund of several Billion Pounds from North Sea Oil revenue. Scotland has Nil Pounds.
Where did you pull this gem from? Orkney has over £100 million in the oil reserve fund, Shetland considerably more (sorry, cant put my finger on the exact amounts)
Can't vouch for what has been salted away elsewhere in the country, but between Orkney and Shetland, I would not be surprised if its going on for half a billion. That not good enough?
Oil is not Scotlands only asset by any means.
You can't just come back with this statement without elaborating on it! So far, all you have spouted is a load of romanticised, ill-informed twaddle and unless you can back it up with reasoned argument I think it would be wise to stop digging an even deeper hole, unless of course you want to hit more oil......
Oil is not Scotlands only asset by any means.
No its not you're right.
But it was you that started talking about an oil fund.
Financially, Scotland gives less to the UK than it takes.
As oil runs out, the gap will widen.
Financially, Scotland is better of in the UK. I think its as simple as that.
Maybe your hatred for the english/UK is more important to you than your love for Scotland?
Where did you pull this gem from? Orkney has over £100 million in the oil reserve fund, Shetland considerably more (sorry, cant put my finger on the exact amounts)
Can't vouch for what has been salted away elsewhere in the country, but between Orkney and Shetland, I would not be surprised if its going on for half a billion. That not good enough?
And well done to Shetland and Orkney for achieving that.
Communities all over the country have managed to get similar funds set up. I believe the people of Teeside got a lot from the chemical industries there.
I'm not from the islands, but if Scotland went independent I would suggest the northern isles should vote for independence from Scotland. With a large quantity of the current oil above 59 degrees north and the major new finds being west of Shetland, you'd quickly become one of the richest "nations" in the world.
OK I've looked at the assets and finances and I think I can make it work.
Job 1 Close the borders to stop the exodus.
We have lots and lots of land. Take over the land, burn out the land owners if necessary (they're all foreign anyway).
Nationalise every industry
Turn out the prisons into work camps (the future sentence for all crimes will be work (or death if you're useless).
Issue every citizen with a ration book for as much Venison and Salmon as you can eat. (If you want anything else it will cost you, plenty).
We have coal reserves, coal fired power stations, three viable nuclear power stations, hydro power stations, and these should provide enough power for the factories, farms and the Parliament building and leave enough to export power to England for revenue. (Everyone else will use candles and peat).
We will end unemployment (if you don't work you don't eat). If you have skills we will use them, if not, well, anyone can dig tatties.
If you are old and or infirm, and your family cannot support you, Euthanasia
Drug addict, Euthanasia
Essentially, we won't be able to afford anyone who doesn't contribute.
I could go on, but you get the picture :eek:
northener
31-Oct-10, 09:21
And well done to Shetland and Orkney for achieving that.
Communities all over the country have managed to get similar funds set up. I believe the people of Teeside got a lot from the chemical industries there.
I'm not from the islands, but if Scotland went independent I would suggest the northern isles should vote for independence from Scotland. With a large quantity of the current oil above 59 degrees north and the major new finds being west of Shetland, you'd quickly become one of the richest "nations" in the world.
Well put.
If Scotland becane truly independant, then Shetland would have an even more valid claim for autonomy than Scotland. So you could kiss the revenue stream from there goodbye.
The notion of a truly independant Scotland is fine by me, but I would want one that can prove that it can support itself without constantly squawking on about 'Scottish Oil'. I've said this before - no-one talks about 'English gas' coming from the Morcambe Bay and Norfolk offshore fields, do they?
The vision of an 'independant' Scotland where everyone is skint and has to rely on handouts whilst shouting "Freedom!" would be a laughable scene.*
Piratelassie, if you want to be taken seriously, let me know what your vision of a New Scotland is made up of. If, on the other hand, all you can do is come up with brief statements that you refuse to back up with credible evidence, then unfortunately you'll just attract ridicule and contempt to what could be potentially a noble cause..
*Mel Gibson should be shot.
Scottish independence is a subject guaranteed to polarise people but I think it is unfair to suggest that it is a hatred of the English or the union that drives people's desire for that independence.
History shows us that the scots have often fought strongly for their right to self govern - even when the odds are against them. That is part of the history of who we are. It has made Scotland in many ways and should not be sneered at or underestimated. We should be proud of that, those who are born Scottish and those who are Scottish by choice or who just enjoy living here. That desire for independence should not be seen as destructive but as a desire that can be used to make Scotland the best place it can be, regardless of what the rest of the union is doing. The focus on making Scotland stronger, financially healthier, socially fairer, and a better place to belong to is a practical application of nationalism.
Real independance is probably far far away, a romantic idea which the economic issues make unlikely. However, you can't blame scots for wanting that independence, we are governed by a conservative government when nowhere in Scotland has a Tory mp. And yes... You can remind me it's an alliance if you like but to me the lib dems have simply morphed into Tories. Those in the cabinet are largely indistinguishable from the conservatives.
So romantic, absolutely. Economically viable, probably not. Desirable, definitely. We need tax raising powers and we need to push the independance agenda as far as we can to strive to make Scotland the best country it can be within the confines of the union.... For now.
northener
31-Oct-10, 10:08
Scottish independence is a subject guaranteed to polarise people but I think it is unfair to suggest that it is a hatred of the English or the union that drives people's desire for that independence.
History shows us that the scots have often fought strongly for their right to self govern - even when the odds are against them. That is part of the history of who we are. It has made Scotland in many ways and should not be sneered at or underestimated. We should be proud of that, those who are born Scottish and those who are Scottish by choice or who just enjoy living here. That desire for independence should not be seen as destructive but as a desire that can be used to make Scotland the best place it can be, regardless of what the rest of the union is doing. The focus on making Scotland stronger, financially healthier, socially fairer, and a better place to belong to is a practical application of nationalism.
Real independance is probably far far away, a romantic idea which the economic issues make unlikely. However, you can't blame scots for wanting that independence, we are governed by a conservative government when nowhere in Scotland has a Tory mp. And yes... You can remind me it's an alliance if you like but to me the lib dems have simply morphed into Tories. Those in the cabinet are largely indistinguishable from the conservatives.
So romantic, absolutely. Economically viable, probably not. Desirable, definitely. We need tax raising powers and we need to push the independance agenda as far as we can to strive to make Scotland the best country it can be within the confines of the union.... For now.
I'd agree with every sentiment there, bar one.
It's rather clumsy to try and somehow blame the current UK government. There were plenty of Labour supporters and political movers and shakers from Scotland in the last Government - and it didn't make one scrap of difference. Scotland was suffering just as much as the rest of the UK.
If you go down the rather tedious and predictable route of Lab versus/blames Con versus SNP versus Libs - it will get Scotland nowhere
tonkatojo
31-Oct-10, 10:24
OK I've looked at the assets and finances and I think I can make it work.
Job 1 Close the borders to stop the exodus.
We have lots and lots of land. Take over the land, burn out the land owners if necessary (they're all foreign anyway).
Nationalise every industry
Turn out the prisons into work camps (the future sentence for all crimes will be work (or death if you're useless).
Issue every citizen with a ration book for as much Venison and Salmon as you can eat. (If you want anything else it will cost you, plenty).
We have coal reserves, coal fired power stations, three viable nuclear power stations, hydro power stations, and these should provide enough power for the factories, farms and the Parliament building and leave enough to export power to England for revenue. (Everyone else will use candles and peat).
We will end unemployment (if you don't work you don't eat). If you have skills we will use them, if not, well, anyone can dig tatties.
If you are old and or infirm, and your family cannot support you, Euthanasia
Drug addict, Euthanasia
Essentially, we won't be able to afford anyone who doesn't contribute.
I could go on, but you get the picture :eek:
Sounds about right for Dave/Nick/Georges Future agenda.
orkneycadian
31-Oct-10, 11:25
Orkney has over £100 million in the oil reserve fund, Shetland considerably more (sorry, cant put my finger on the exact amounts)
According to The Orcadian dated 21st October, Orkney's oil reserve funds hold £195 million whilst Shetlands are "nearly £500 million". Thats nearly £0.7 billion between lil ole Orkney and Shetland alone! Hopefully, places like Aberdeen, Peterhead and the likes which have done far better out of oil have stashed away a suitably proportionate amount!
Some seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that the Oil belongs to the state (whichever one it is). It doesn't, it belongs to the oil companies that pay to find it. Otherwise how could they sell it?:roll:
The state charge for a licence to prospect for oil and claims a tax on the revenue (profit) generated by the extraction and processing and sale of the oil. This is over simplified but that seems appropriate.
If these companies don't make a profit then there is no tax.
According to The Orcadian dated 21st October, Orkney's oil reserve funds hold £195 million whilst Shetlands are "nearly £500 million". Thats nearly £0.7 billion between lil ole Orkney and Shetland alone! Hopefully, places like Aberdeen, Peterhead and the likes which have done far better out of oil have stashed away a suitably proportionate amount!
How much will it cost to get it?
It is reported that Norway has an oil fund of several Billion Pounds from North Sea Oil revenue. Scotland has Nil Pounds. Well done Jocks. The good news is its not too late.
Shetland and Orkney negotiated deals with the oil companies when they built the terminals at Sullom Voe and Flotta. Shetland stuck out for a very good deal and have loads of excellent community centres around the Islands with swimming pools etc.
orkneycadian
31-Oct-10, 12:18
How much will it cost to get it?
If we ever get them! Orkney Islands Council are so paranoid about being seen to deplete the reserves, that I don't think they will ever dip into them. They have told us for decades that they are for "a rainy day", but no matter how much rain falls, its never wet enough for them!
They tell us that they must be preserved so we can live off the interest. With base rate still being 0.5%, that should be enough to buy everyone in Orkney a packet of Spangles each year.... :roll:
Sounds about right for Dave/Nick/Georges Future agenda.
Hardly :eek: They're not very keen on nationalisation or land reform!
John Little
31-Oct-10, 13:27
If we ever get them! Orkney Islands Council are so paranoid about being seen to deplete the reserves, that I don't think they will ever dip into them. They have told us for decades that they are for "a rainy day", but no matter how much rain falls, its never wet enough for them!
They tell us that they must be preserved so we can live off the interest. With base rate still being 0.5%, that should be enough to buy everyone in Orkney a packet of Spangles each year.... :roll:
Could it be that they are putting it away in case the UK ever breaks up and Orkney might want to go it alone in a way similar to the Isle of Man or the Channel Isles?
northener
31-Oct-10, 15:56
Could it be that they are putting it away in case the UK ever breaks up and Orkney might want to go it alone in a way similar to the Isle of Man or the Channel Isles?
An interesting thought, John.
Dunno if its' right or not, but it would be a very astute move on their part if that was the plan.
Shabbychic
31-Oct-10, 17:32
I suppose the fact that threads like this garner any reaction whatsoever must give hope to illiterate inchoate halfwits everywhere.
They should be eternally grateful to us for that.
Wow, is that the best you can come up with?:eek: I may agree or disagree with responses on this thread, but at least they are participating and presenting their views.
If you disagree with what's being said, that's your right, but to resort to playground name calling is a bit below the belt. Your pontification also doesn't make it very clear who these illiterate, inchoate, halfwits are. The shoe could fit either foot.:confused
An interesting thought, John.
Dunno if its' right or not, but it would be a very astute move on their part if that was the plan.
Like getting stuck in the mud?
northener
31-Oct-10, 20:38
Like getting stuck in the mud?
[lol]
Boom tish!
John Little
31-Oct-10, 20:56
[lol]
Boom tish!
Like getting stuck in the mud?
More or less what I was thinking. Scots nationalists may take it that 'Scotland' might get its independence one day but there are parts of what constitutes 'Scotland' that might have another take on it. Orkney and Shetland were not always Scotland- nor indeed were the Western Isles. If the UK breaks up then it might not be a 'taken for granted' that things turn out as people might wish.
DeHaviLand
31-Oct-10, 21:05
What else are you going to do to drive us forward? Sean Connery? Haggis? Uncompetetive shipyards compared to the Far East? A crap infrastructure? Lets not forget the same idiots that decided to invest millions in a toytown failed tramway in Embra as opposed to upgrading the main lifeline to the Far North are the same ones who you are pinning your hopes on for a glorious commercial future.
Much wrongness here Walter. If you do your homework you will find that the SNP are the only party who voted against the Edinburgh tram system. :roll:
Much wrongness here Walter. If you do your homework you will find that the SNP are the only party who voted against the Edinburgh tram system. :roll:
I voted against them too, and I am not a Scot Nat [lol]
Some seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that the Oil belongs to the state (whichever one it is). It doesn't, it belongs to the oil companies that pay to find it. Otherwise how could they sell it?:roll:
The state charge for a licence to prospect for oil and claims a tax on the revenue (profit) generated by the extraction and processing and sale of the oil. This is over simplified but that seems appropriate.
If these companies don't make a profit then there is no tax.
'Course the point of this post is that the Oil companies have already paid for the licences and won't be best pleased if Scotland asks them to pay again. :eek:
Scottish independence is a subject guaranteed to polarise people but I think it is unfair to suggest that it is a hatred of the English or the union that drives people's desire for that independence.
History shows us that the scots have often fought strongly for their right to self govern - even when the odds are against them. That is part of the history of who we are. It has made Scotland in many ways and should not be sneered at or underestimated. We should be proud of that, those who are born Scottish and those who are Scottish by choice or who just enjoy living here. That desire for independence should not be seen as destructive but as a desire that can be used to make Scotland the best place it can be, regardless of what the rest of the union is doing. The focus on making Scotland stronger, financially healthier, socially fairer, and a better place to belong to is a practical application of nationalism.
Real independance is probably far far away, a romantic idea which the economic issues make unlikely. However, you can't blame scots for wanting that independence, we are governed by a conservative government when nowhere in Scotland has a Tory mp. And yes... You can remind me it's an alliance if you like but to me the lib dems have simply morphed into Tories. Those in the cabinet are largely indistinguishable from the conservatives.
So romantic, absolutely. Economically viable, probably not. Desirable, definitely. We need tax raising powers and we need to push the independance agenda as far as we can to strive to make Scotland the best country it can be within the confines of the union.... For now.
A very well written post. I agree with your point on polarity, certainly on this subject we are a different ends of the spectrum.
I don't believe that everyone who wishes for independence does so due to a hatred of the English. Many people can offer valid reasons, it sounds like yourself being one of them, but I do believe that many who shout for independence do so without such valid reasons. "It's our oil, where's our money?" is one of the most popular statements from such people.
The SNP themselves admitted a huge surge of support following the release of Braveheart.
Such people, who set their political beliefs based on a hollywood movie scare me. They have the same power to vote as the rest of us and could influence any future referendum based on such loose foundations.
As Northener states, once a "plan" is made for a prosperous Scotland WITHOUT oil revenue I will take it seriously. Until then, it frightens me that we'd base our future on a 30 year resource.
As for your argument about the tories being in power, sorry I don't agree. How many of those wishing for independence weren't doing so under the labour government?
You acknowledge that it is probably not economically viable to have independence. How can you support it then? Do you really believe making us poorer as a nation is a step forward?
As for tax raising powers, I disagree. I think it would be an insult to the rest of the UK that we'd take their money and subsidies with open hands, but then raise taxes, making more money that we weren't prepared to share. That smacks of hypocricy.
I will agree with you though - Romantic, absolutely.
I'd still like to know how many of the 5 million are actually Scots?
I know a disproportional number of Englanders just in Caithness and similarly in Edinburgh, Glasgow, the Borders and South Lanarkshire.:eek:
I'd still like to know how many of the 5 million are actually Scots?
I know a disproportional number of Englanders just in Caithness and similarly in Edinburgh, Glasgow, the Borders and South Lanarkshire.:eek:
And? Everyone living in a country has something to say about the running of their home...
A very well written post...thank you.
I don't believe that everyone who wishes for independence does so due to a hatred of the English. Many people can offer valid reasons, it sounds like yourself being one of them, but I do believe that many who shout for independence do so without such valid reasons. "It's our oil, where's our money?" is one of the most popular statements from such people.
The SNP themselves admitted a huge surge of support following the release of Braveheart.
Such people, who set their political beliefs based on a hollywood movie scare me. They have the same power to vote as the rest of us and could influence any future referendum based on such loose foundations..
Hmmm I think you are right on one level. However there may very well be a significant number of people who, having seen the film Braveheart and been excited and moved by it, went on to look at the history and the politics and as a result of having their interest raised did some research and made a sensible decision. I know from the historical stuff we do that many people did the same with the history and realised that Braveheart was not exactly accurate and became much more knowledgeable as a result.
Of course people dont support independance due to a hatred of English lol - thats exactly what i said. Its a good job else bed time at our house wouldnt be much fun;)
As for your argument about the tories being in power, sorry I don't agree. How many of those wishing for independence weren't doing so under the labour government?..
Ach thats just a wee soapbox issue for me - forgive me - i wanted to illustrate that we may see more nationalism as a result of the current situation but it turned into my pet beef just now lol.
You acknowledge that it is probably not economically viable to have independence. How can you support it then? Do you really believe making us poorer as a nation is a step forward? ..
Absolutely not. I dont beleive that total independance can be supported in the short term. What I DO beleive is that we should be taking all that passion and drive towards independance and harness it to make sure that Scotland is the BEST it can be, economically, socially and in every way. We should be driving that forward regardless ofd what the England, n. Ireland and Wales are doing. We should stop viewing nationalism as negative and use it as a positive force for the good of the nation we live in.
As for tax raising powers, I disagree. I think it would be an insult to the rest of the UK that we'd take their money and subsidies with open hands, but then raise taxes, making more money that we weren't prepared to share. That smacks of hypocricy.. There was a report in the Times today that Scotland might get some of this sooner than expected. The "calman" report (?) suggests that the subsidy reduces by the amount that Scotland is expected to raise I think. I apologise for not having a link or quoting it correctly but i was reading it in Costa coffee today lol.
I will agree with you though - Romantic, absolutely.
What.... FREEDOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM lol
I'd still like to know how many of the 5 million are actually Scots?
I know a disproportional number of Englanders just in Caithness and similarly in Edinburgh, Glasgow, the Borders and South Lanarkshire.:eek:
I'll bet there are more Scots in England than there are English in Scotland.
John Little
01-Nov-10, 21:57
Aye - and they often run the place- or folk of Alba's descent-
Balfour
Campbell Bannerman
Bonar Law
Ramsay McDonald
MacMillan
Douglas Home
Blair,
Brown
Cameron
I'll bet there are more Scots in England than there are English in Scotland.
That's always my response if someone objects to the odd import. You're more than welcome to the 30,000 weegies from Manchester back [lol]
You're more than welcome to the 30,000 weegies from Manchester back [lol]
What is a weegie? I lived 20 miles outside Manchester and have never heard that term before...
What is a weegie? I lived 20 miles outside Manchester and have never heard that term before...
:eek::lol:.....Think about it Leanne, the clue's in the name !!!
C3...;)
.....Think about it Leanne, the clue's in the name !!!
C3...;)
Sorry no - my imagination won't stretch that far... Might have something to do with the anaesthetic effect of Baileys ;)
Sorry no - my imagination won't stretch that far... Might have something to do with the anaesthetic effect of Baileys ;)
OK Leanne......Glas.........weeegies??? There , is that any easier?
lol
C3...:lol:
OK Leanne......Glas.........weeegies??? There , is that any easier?
lol
C3...:lol:
Ahhh get you now... Still the first time I've heard it ;)
Ahhh get you now... Still the first time I've heard it ;)
LOL...You are funny.....
C3....:roll::lol:
What is a weegie? I lived 20 miles outside Manchester and have never heard that term before...
Yer must be gettin' confuddled wiv Woolybacks, thats why.
Yer must be gettin' confuddled wiv Woolybacks, thats why.
Oh am losing tonight... Go on - educate me...
Wigannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn lol
Aaldtimer
02-Nov-10, 04:07
That's always my response if someone objects to the odd import. You're more than welcome to the 30,000 weegies from Manchester back [lol]
By definition, "Weegies" cannot possibly come from Manchester!:confused
Confused.com.
Oh am losing tonight... Go on - educate me...
Wigannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn lol
Pie eaters are from Wigan, Woolybacks are from Warrington.
(both 20 miles ish from Mancunia though)
By definition, "Weegies" cannot possibly come from Manchester!:confused
Confused.com.
That's why ducati said your welcome to them back!
The clues are all there.
Pie eaters are from Wigan, Woolybacks are from Warrington.
(both 20 miles ish from Mancunia though)
O.K. The problem with this forum is people who don't know what they are talking about do it with confidence and authority.
Woolybacks are called that by Scousers and they are from Widnes and St Helens :Razz[lol]
O.K. The problem with this forum is people who don't know what they are talking about do it with confidence and authority.
Woolybacks are called that by Scousers and they are from Widnes and St Helens :Razz[lol]
Nah, it definitely encompasses Warrington. (tis true) (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/woolyback)
Certainly does fer the Woolybacks I know that reside in Warrington, 'cept one escaped to New Zealand but he's still a Woolyback.
Anyway, getting back to the thread, the OP has been asked to expand on her (assumption) statements.
Hello, Hello Piratelassie.......?
Shabbychic
02-Nov-10, 17:03
Anyway, getting back to the thread, the OP has been asked to expand on her (assumption) statements.
Hello, Hello Piratelassie.......?
I don't believe Piratelassie is a politician, so it's a bit unfair to keep on at her to answer all your questions. Why don't you have a wee read here (http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2009/11/26155932/0) and find out things for yourself?:D
I don't believe Piratelassie is a politician, so it's a bit unfair to keep on at her to answer all your questions. Why don't you have a wee read here (http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2009/11/26155932/0) and find out things for yourself?:D
I'm not interested in what the politicians think! [lol]
Walter Ego
04-Nov-10, 09:18
Much wrongness here Walter. If you do your homework you will find that the SNP are the only party who voted against the Edinburgh tram system. :roll:
I voted against them too, and I am not a Scot Nat [lol]
Fair comment.
A bit harsh of me to blame the national administration for Auld Reekie's self-inflicted woes.
Fair comment.
A bit harsh of me to blame the national administration for Auld Reekie's self-inflicted woes.
One of the big, big problems with this country and the Union. Why are we contracting German engineering companies to lay tram lines and build trams? We can build trams and laying track in the street is hardly rocket science :mad:
And why was the Queen Elizabeth built in Italy? If we can build Destroyers and Aircraft Carriers we can build cruise ships.
That's how we get back to full employment-BUY SCOTTISH, BUY BRITISH
tonkatojo
06-Nov-10, 09:37
One of the big, big problems with this country and the Union. Why are we contracting German engineering companies to lay tram lines and build trams? We can build trams and laying track in the street is hardly rocket science :mad:
And why was the Queen Elizabeth built in Italy? If we can build Destroyers and Aircraft Carriers we can build cruise ships.
That's how we get back to full employment-BUY SCOTTISH, BUY BRITISH
I am not an expert but is your question not answered by the fact some dimbo joined the common market/ eec and agreed to the rules that all work must go to tendering ??.
I take it by your above statement your advocating coming out of the eec. ?
That's how we get back to full employment-BUY SCOTTISH, BUY BRITISH
But that's not very European is it old boy?
Your absolutely right of course!
I am not an expert but is your question not answered by the fact some dimbo joined the common market/ eec and agreed to the rules that all work must go to tendering ??.
I take it by your above statement your advocating coming out of the eec. ?
One; Not at all, I'm advocating that our engineering firms get their act together, stop living in the ninetenth century, and win the tenders. There must be a distinct competetive advantage in not having to ship everything from abroad, so if they can't win the work with the advantage of being local they don't deserve it.
Two; There are no EU rules that say consumers can't buy British for preference.
Why do the police buy German Cars? Why do the fire service buy Swedish fire engines?
This should stop. Where goods can be made in the UK (competetively) we should buy them. I'm not talking about competing with third world sweat shops. We are buying high ticket items from economies with a higher standard of living than we have. :roll:
But that's not very European is it old boy?
Your absolutely right of course!
See above rant :eek:
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