View Full Version : Israel
lorraine_2406
30-Jul-06, 09:49
With the atrocity of 40 civilians being killed in a air strike in Qana is it right for the world to stand back and let this happen. America is not making any friends in the region by supporting these acts especially by the fact of give Israel bombs and Lebanon blankets. It is understandable there will be deaths in war but for the fact of 21 children out of 40 being killed.Isreal has a huge standing army if they want to clear these areas they should use there ground troops if they continue to try and achieve this by air power there will be plenty more mornings you will wake up to see this on the news.The more of these acts just give the extremists around the world to rant about and then it causes more grief for us all.
brokencross
30-Jul-06, 10:27
This phrase "substainable peace" keeps rearing its head. Of course there needs to be peace and a substainable peace is an admirable and desireable goal. However while all these learned politicians are dreaming up plans and road maps for peace, there are totally innocent civilians being killed needlessly. Usually the US and the UK are the first to call for immediate ceasefires in any conflict.
Unfortunately, in this case there is self interest involved. George Bush and the US administration appear to have an agenda where Israel is doing their "dirty" work in quashing Hezbolah and will not vocally condemn Israel, they call for restraint....big deal. Our illustrious Prime Minister is simply playing "follow my leader" because he seems gutless when it comes to standing up to George Bush.
Israel would not even allow a 72 hour cease fire to let humanitarian aid through, because it would alledgedly allow Hezbollah to regroup. Killing civilians under the pretence, whether true or not, that the Hezbollah are using them as a human shield for their rocket launchers is not acceptable.
As for letting weapons destined to kill Lebanese people being transported through Prestwick is shameful and has put blood on the hands of the British Government.
Bush and Blair are not fighting a war on terror, they are fuelling it. Every single day they seem to give more reasons for fundamentalists to take up arms against the West, the US and UK in particular.
I feel the biggest risk to our world at the moment is the US administration's blind determination to IMPOSE freedom, democracy and Western values on other nations. Iraq and Afghanistan are nowhere near true democracies or being peaceful nations.
Bush and Blair need a reality check.
Dreadnought
30-Jul-06, 10:55
I agree with your points. Blair is the most spineless weasel ever to hold the office of Prime Minister.
Ps.Have you seen this thread (http://<u>this thread</u>)?
With the attrocity of 40 civilians being killed in a airstrike in Qana is it right for the world to stand back and let this happen. America is not making any freinds in the region by supporting these acts especially by the fact of give Isreal bombs and Lebannon blankets. It is understandable there will be fatilitys in war but for the fact of 21 children out of 40 being killed.Isreal has a huge standing army if they want to clear these areas they should use there ground troops if they continue to try and achive this by air power there will be plenty more mornings you will wake up to see this on the news.The more of these acts just give the extremists around the world to rant about and then it causes more greif for us all.
America isn't looking to make friends they want total world domination and the two arn't compatible.
The war in Lebanon has been planned in detail for over a year now, a senior Israeli army officer went round America with a Powerpoint presentation to sell it to the American military and government.
Just before the war started an oil pipeline opened linking the Caspian oil fields to the Mediteranian. America and Israel would like to continue that pipeline to Israel and on to the Red Sea, preferably overland across Syria and Lebanon, if not an undersea pipeline round Syria and Lebanon. Either way the oil companies won't invest in Israel while they are in a Hamas Hezbollah sandwhich.
There are only two ways Israel could make the region secure, one is to give back all the land they stole and the other is to totally destroy Hezbollah and Hamas causing so much loss of civillian life and infrastructure they would never be allowed to re-emerge.
With the availability of Caspian oil to the West we arn't nearly so dependent on Gulf oil as we were and we're not nearly so worried about upsetting the Arabs.
Not another Israel thread...........
I wonder how long it will be before a number of other countries decide that enough is enough and go to war with America and Britain. The song and dance made by the USA because a few thousand Americans were killed on 9/11 and the song and dance made at the death of a few people in London indicates to me that they and us are not too happy when subjected to a piece of their own medicine. Apart from 9/11 America has never been truly attacked at home since Pearl Harbour. Perhaps the time has come when more than a few disgruntled nations decide that enough is enough and the bully gets his come- uppance.
I have been ambivalent about Israel and the Jews for a long time but my present feeling is one of absolute disgust and I must admit that I am ashamed to be considered British.
brokencross
30-Jul-06, 11:39
Mad Pict...........if you don't like threads about Israel add it to your "ignore list"; some of us happen to think it is very important and worthy of comment. The situation is in the Middle East is so fluid that the other Israel threads may not fully reflect the current situation so therefore it is easier to have new threads, so I applaude lorainne 2406 for posting it......so there.
I'm glad that America is the superpower of the day. Imagine if it was some banana republic or some totalitarian government who were pulling the strings? We very easily forget that our own freedom and destiny is tied into the freedom America defends when its own morals are brought under scrutiny.
Whether you guys want to accept it or not, there is a war on terror being waged out there and we, the British, are at the forefront of that battle to retain the freedom generations of our fathers fought for. We may not like the means being used to wage the war, but how else do you negotiate with people who wage war on innocent men and women, whether in buildings in New York or underground trains in London?
I detect anti semitism at the heart of the complaints on here. The Israelis are fighting against an enemy who would hve preferred non of them survived the Nazi execution camps.
The truth is, non of the nations either condemning or condoning the present actions, have any room for criticism if history were to be the hallmark of right and wrong.
I wonder if these so called freedom fighters killing innocent Jewish women and children would continue to give you and me the freedom we have become used to, were they the ones wielding the power now enjoyed by the Americans?
And it could not have been tagged onto this thread?...
http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?t=11983
And while I do like to read others viewpoints on the subject, because believe it or not, I do have concerns on the topic, I am fed up to the back teeth with the same people hijacking threads for their own anti American/Israeli/British agendas.
And for your info, you add people, not threads to the ignore list (unless Niall has added that vB plug in)....
...and I will offer an apology to Lorraine for my brusque reply, but these forums are not the place they once were....
I'm glad that America is the superpower of the day. Imagine if it was some banana republic or some totalitarian government who were pulling the strings? We very easily forget that our own freedom and destiny is tied into the freedom America defends when its own morals are brought under scrutiny.
Whether you guys want to accept it or not, there is a war on terror being waged out there and we, the British, are at the forefront of that battle to retain the freedom generations of our fathers fought for. We may not like the means being used to wage the war, but how else do you negotiate with people who wage war on innocent men and women, whether in buildings in New York or underground trains in London?
I detect anti semitism at the heart of the complaints on here.
what rubbish.... you are accusing everyone opposed of the Israeli armys war crimes anti-semitic? So, I take it you support Israel? that's your choice I suppose... but I for one think the crimes they are committing now and in the past are atrocious and I fear their neighbours have had quite enough and we are at breaking point in the Middle East. Our troops are so far stretched at the moment... they're struggling in Iraq... who do you think is here to protect this so called "free" country if need be? Well.. it won't be the people will it... left with zero weaponry ourselves, we are defenceless to whatever our government may bring upon our and our childrens heads. what other part of scottish history does that remind you of?
brokencross
30-Jul-06, 12:11
There is certainly no anti-semitism in my posts.
Yes, America is a super power, but that doesn't give it the right to allow what amounts to State terrorism by the Israeli forces. One firm word from the US would stop Israel's onslaught.
If you put aside the long term historical differences in the Middle East, this conflict stems from the kidnap of 2 Israeli soldiers, who may or may not be still alive. Does that warrant all the innocent deathes on both sides so far. the words "proportional reponse" are being bandied about, this is certainly over the top and very excessive.
I do not pretend to have the solution to this problem, but what is happening now will not solve anything at all. Mr Bush has his own agenda, Mr Blair tags along.
Lorainne 2406 said it all when she says the US supplies bombs to Israel and blankets to Lebanon, where is the justice and fair minded democratic society that Mr Bush wants us all to enjoy, he is a joke and so is his foreign policy.
Mr Blair wants a multi national UN peace keeping force. Where on earth is the UK going to find our troops from, we are stretched to the limit as it is at the moment.
(Madpict, the ignore list jibe was a feeble attempt at humour)
Have they started blanket bombing now?....
Your feeble humour attempt is noted - but such a hack does exist -
"This hack adds an "Ignore Thread" option to the thread tools menu and generates a list of threads you have ignored in your UserCP."
Maybe I should request Niall to add it to the Orgmin 'toolbox'.....
what rubbish.... you are accusing everyone opposed of the Israeli armys war crimes anti-semitic? So, I take it you support Israel? that's your choice I suppose... but I for one think the crimes they are committing now and in the past are atrocious and I fear their neighbours have had quite enough and we are at breaking point in the Middle East. Our troops are so far stretched at the moment... they're struggling in Iraq... who do you think is here to protect this so called "free" country if need be? Well.. it won't be the people will it... left with zero weaponry ourselves, we are defenceless to whatever our government may bring upon our and our childrens heads. what other part of scottish history does that remind you of?
You know something wahwah? You may be right.
I'm off for my holidays now. Going to use up some of the freedom America is helping to preserve in our crazy world.
brokencross
30-Jul-06, 13:42
Madpict, your effort at feeble humour also noted and actually quite witty (if it was not for seriousness of events)
The village that was bombed this morning has a bit of history attached.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5228554.stm
There will be no winners in this conflict. Any positive moves towards a lasting Middle East peace have taken about 10 steps back following this whole affair.
The freedoms that gleeber glibly talks about are despite what the Americans (Government) do and not because of what they do.
The US is very insular and gives the impression that they are beyond reproach. They had a massive wake up call on 9/11 and since then, because of some of their Government's actions, statements and policies, I fear we now live in a more unsettled, unsafe world than ever. By all their postulating and self righteous attitudes, backed up by Mr Blair, they have stirred up one helluva hornet's nest and we will all suffer for it. Be warned.
Come on all you haters of conflict - put your money where your mouths are - or not as it happens.
http://www.bigcampaign.org/
http://home.pacbell.net/halnet/Boycott%20Israeli%20Products%20Campaign.htm
Just go and have a looksee at what Israeli produce you might have in your house. Hmm enjoy a nice juicy Orange this morning? Then it might have the blood of Lebanon on it.....
if you define freedom as your allowance to travel that's fine.. but, what about your own backyard. I think the pattern of landownership in this country says alot about our freedoms. Feudal tenure which is meant to be abolished.. but, really I don't see many differences. The government may take your land or house at anytime they please... and what you can and cannot do on your land or in your house is dictated by a force outwith your control. Where is freedom in this equation? cause quite frankly it worries me.
When you are travelling... will you be free to not be treated as a criminal at customs or at border crossings... last time I travelled out of the country we were interrogated up and down accused of all sorts on two different occassions.. only for them to find out they were wrong.. my two-year old daughter was frisked by miscellaneous uniformed men at Amsterdam and Detroit both ways and they also wanted to fingerprint her & eye scan her which I refused but, told me I must comply.. (that's right give up your liberty for your freedom?!?) lucky for us she had kicked off so hard by this time.. they weren't getttin' anything!... i wasn't feelin' to free.
preserving freedom... obviously you've not read the patriot act or the constitiution of America either.
Come on all you haters of conflict - put your money where your mouths are - or not as it happens.
http://www.bigcampaign.org/
http://home.pacbell.net/halnet/Boycott%20Israeli%20Products%20Campaign.htm
Just go and have a looksee at what Israeli produce you might have in your house. Hmm enjoy a nice juicy Orange this morning? Then it might have the blood of Lebanon on it.....
I have met several Israelis.. quite nice folk. Just bought a jumper from an Israeli headshop.. it's pretty funky.. and came with a nice warning label on the box from the Israeli gov. about "suspect packages and dangerous materials". But, I don't think the guy who sold me the jumper was plotting to contaminate Lebanon with depleted uranium or white phosphorus.. by accusing everyone here who happens to find what Israel is doing quite alarming of supporting the Israeli armys actions over buying a few oranges is a ludicrous thing to say.
Maybe if we all stopped buying Israeli oranges we could strap them financially and then they'd have to resort to slingshots rather than cluster bombs and du munitions! Good plan MadPict!:roll:
sjblahblah,
They are nice folk. Just as the Lebanese are nice folk.
But if you feel strongly about something then why not do something to raise awareness about. Go on a protest march against Israeli aggression. Go strap yourself to a DU loaded Israeli tank. Don't buy Israeli products. Just give us a rest......
i do... more than you know...[lol]
brokencross
30-Jul-06, 14:45
MadPict...The massive march in London against the war in Iraq certainly stopped that war didn't it!!?
lorraine_2406
30-Jul-06, 14:56
The main cause of all the fighting is the world is about religion and when politics is added it just gets nasty
MadPict...The massive march in London against the war in Iraq certainly stopped that war didn't it!!?
No it didn't. It probably gave Bliar a few moments of discomfort....
Just as the protest outside Prestwick probably won't make much difference. But if you feel strongly about an issue the act of protesting might make you feel less complicit in the crimes of the state......
The fact that the last Atlas Air flights went to a US base in Suffolk is of little surprise - not sure why they didn't use these places to stop over in the first place. If they are carrying the huge amounts of DU that is alleged I would have thought having the security of a military base far more desirable than the likes of Prestwick....
The main cause of all the fighting is the world is about religion and when politics is added it just gets nasty
Wholeheartedly agree with you - what a wonderful peaceful world we would all share without religion or politics. Lets banish all politicians and religious leaders to Love Island and turn the churches and parliament buildings into homes for the homeless ;)
A good reason to ban the discussion of both......[lol]
I wonder what the real statistics are of people who support the war in Iraq vs. those who don't.. judging by the people I meet or read about I would say at least the majority of people in this country do not believe we should have gone there to fight a war. If that is the case.. this is bedtime for democracy. I bet the majority on this board do not agree with the war in Iraq.
Are you saying that people who go to protests are only going for some sort of self-satisfaction.. to make themselves feel better? that is if they protest they are somehow redeeming themselves?
Are you saying that people who go to protests are only going for some sort of self-satisfaction.. to make themselves feel better? that is if they protest they are somehow redeeming themselves?
Support of Iraq War? Start a poll......
No - they are going on them because they have a conscience. Maybe having their little say does make them feel better in themselves or as a collective group and perhaps come Judgement Day they feel they can stand up and say "Not in my name".......
To hell with it I am back, I am fed lurking in the background,and seeing you condem the Israelis and the US and UK, but not a mention of the Hezbollah and their BM-13 Katyusha (Russian made I wonder who funded them) rockets that are being targetted at civilians. Now Hezbollah has got hold of long range rockets the Khaibar-1 who funded them I wonder? Syria and Iran are as guilty as the US for funding the Hezbollah and Hamas in Palestine also.
There are over a 100 rocket attacks a day on Haifa, but do you condem Hezbullah? No you dont, they started this conflict, Israel is only responding to Terrorist attacks because thats what Hezbollah are Terrorists, the Lebonese government does not want them there either.
As for a cease fire Israel cannot do that, because the Islamic fanatics would see that as a victory of Islam.
All I say to Israel is please pick your targets a bit better, but its war and Hezbollah are hiding amongst the Lebanonese civilians as they have always done. I have no sympathy for any of the so called Party of God Hezbollah members that get killed they are terrorists, getting killed comes with fighting
lorraine_2406
30-Jul-06, 15:41
Israel needs to be careful that it does not engulf the whole region in a war. I agree with you about Hezbollah and should be condemned for there part in the bloodshed but with the Israeli actions of the last few weeks it is just turning nations against them and just gives more ammo to the terrorists of Islam.
I detect anti semitism at the heart of the complaints on here.
So when the IRA crossed the border to kill British troops then retreated back to Eire do you think the RAF should have bombed Dublin to rubble, flattened all the power stations, water works and sewerage works in the country, bombed the roads and railways and killed hundreds of innocent Irish women and children?
If your answer to that is no then maybe you should be thinking about why it is any different because it is Arabs being killed.
So when the IRA crossed the border to kill British troops then retreated back to Eire do you think the RAF should have bombed Dublin to rubble, flattened all the power stations, water works and sewerage works in the country, bombed the roads and railways and killed hundreds of innocent Irish women and children?
If your answer to that is no then maybe you should be thinking about why it is any different because it is Arabs being killed.
Because the IRA was not firing over a 100 BM-13 Katyusha rockets a day into Belfast, Hezbollah are into Israel
lorraine_2406
30-Jul-06, 20:46
(Not Lorraine here) While in Iraq we got rocket attacks on regular occasions it would have been wrong for us to do the same back to them and the so called freedom fighters, insurgents what ever there calling them self’s now some times missed and would land in civilian areas full of there own people, but being British we did the right thing and the rockets were got rid of or defused. Even though they were not all friendly every one of them expected the British to clear it.
celtic 302
30-Jul-06, 20:53
Wholeheartedly agree with you - what a wonderful peaceful world we would all share without religion or politics. Lets banish all politicians and religious leaders to Love Island and turn the churches and parliament buildings into homes for the homeless ;)
A good reason to ban the discussion of both......[lol]
"Religion isnt the problem, its the people who use it too gain power", think about that one.
celtic 302
30-Jul-06, 20:56
So when the IRA crossed the border to kill British troops then retreated back to Eire do you think the RAF should have bombed Dublin to rubble, flattened all the power stations, water works and sewerage works in the country, bombed the roads and railways and killed hundreds of innocent Irish women and children?
If your answer to that is no then maybe you should be thinking about why it is any different because it is Arabs being killed.
I agree with you on that one fred.... theres a first time for everythin... :lol:
Because the IRA was not firing over a 100 BM-13 Katyusha rockets a day into Belfast, Hezbollah are into Israel
Now some people seem to be saying that the Israeli bombardment of civillian targets in Lebanon started because Hezbollah kidnapped two Israeli soldiers and now you are saying it is because Hezbollah was firing 100 missiles a day into Israel.
Are you sure the 100 missile a day Hezbollah bombardment didn't start after the Israeli bombardment?
celtic 302
30-Jul-06, 21:02
The country off Israel began as a country formed by terrorists, using terrorist actions. They stole the land with brute force. The problem with Israel is that it was formed by these terrorists, and it cant get out off its terroristic habbits.
Dreadnought
30-Jul-06, 22:29
TWO soldiers kidnapped and SEVEN_HUNDRED AND FIFTY civilians killed in retaliation (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5228224.stm).
In another war, sixty-five years ago, that would have been called punishment reprisal. Whether civilians are lined up by the military and shot in a town square or bombed from a distance, the action is the same. Today's Israel behaves no better than the Nazis did in occupied Europe (http://www.oradour.info/) and their actions will be remembered by future generations in the same light.
Now some people seem to be saying that the Israeli bombardment of civillian targets in Lebanon started because Hezbollah kidnapped two Israeli soldiers and now you are saying it is because Hezbollah was firing 100 missiles a day into Israel.
Are you sure the 100 missile a day Hezbollah bombardment didn't start after the Israeli bombardment?
Hezbollah started it, Israel is only trying to eradicate a Terrorist group from their borders
Dreadnought
30-Jul-06, 23:26
Hezbollah started it, Israel is only trying to eradicate a Terrorist group from their borders
So perhaps Britain would have been justified in levelling Dublin and most of Eire in retaliation for IRA atrocities?*
*I know this was said elsewhere but it bears repeating.
brokencross
30-Jul-06, 23:56
These are worth a read if only to get a feel for the history of the groups/countries involved in the conflict. And before I get accused of anything, I posted them in this order simply because "H" comes before "I" in the alpahabet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon
"Religion isnt the problem, its the people who use it too gain power", think about that one.
I totally agree with you.
And if this thread wasn't about Israel I would also challenge more fully the bit in the quote, which you are referring to, about turning churches into homes for the homeless. Many, many, many of the homeless of my country and I suspect the UK are cared for by the churches.
The country off Israel began as a country formed by terrorists, using terrorist actions. They stole the land with brute force. The problem with Israel is that it was formed by these terrorists, and it cant get out off its terroristic habbits.The partition of Palestine and the creation of Israel was done by the United Nations in November 1947. .
UNITED NATIONS - General Assembly - A/RES/181(II)(A+B)29 November 1947
Resolution 181 (II). Future government of Palestine
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/62c13fb98d54fe240525672700581383/7f0af2bd897689b785256c330061d253!OpenDocument
As usual, the myth is far more convenient for certain purposes than the truth.
If you want to look at things that way celtic 302, exactly the same thing can be said about the New South Africa, China, Pakistan and Bangladesh, Mexico, Russia, almost every Country in Africa, Most Countries in South America, in fact, the list could include most of the Countries in the World at one time or another including England, Scotland and Wales. (Yes, I know I missed Ireland and that was deliberate). And that is without going into the number of Countries in Europe which have been ruled by sheer terror from time to time. Some more recently than others.
Dreadnought
31-Jul-06, 07:46
The 1917 Balfour Declaration did little to help matters for the Palestinians even though it contains the line "it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done that may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine".
November 2nd, 1917
Dear Lord Rothschild,
I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.
"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."
I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.
Yours sincerely, Arthur James Balfour.
Ps. IMO to support the actions of Israel is to support this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5229058.stm). Watch the video link on that page and then say those people deserve what they are getting.
Nothing can defend Israel's latest war crime against women and children in Qana; proud of their ability to bomb with pinpoint accuracy they have made a grave error.
First they bomb the roads to make them impassable, then they tell the people to leave, then they massacre them.
To hell with it I am back, I am fed lurking in the background,and seeing you condem the Israelis and the US and UK, but not a mention of the Hezbollah and their BM-13 Katyusha (Russian made I wonder who funded them) rockets that are being targetted at civilians. Now Hezbollah has got hold of long range rockets the Khaibar-1 who funded them I wonder? Syria and Iran are as guilty as the US for funding the Hezbollah and Hamas in Palestine also.
There are over a 100 rocket attacks a day on Haifa, but do you condem Hezbullah? No you dont, they started this conflict, Israel is only responding to Terrorist attacks because thats what Hezbollah are Terrorists, the Lebonese government does not want them there either.
As for a cease fire Israel cannot do that, because the Islamic fanatics would see that as a victory of Islam.
All I say to Israel is please pick your targets a bit better, but its war and Hezbollah are hiding amongst the Lebanonese civilians as they have always done. I have no sympathy for any of the so called Party of God Hezbollah members that get killed they are terrorists, getting killed comes with fighting
Welcome back, Golach.
As you infer, it is a country's right to defend itself against attack. Hezbollah has declared war on the Israelis; wouldn't we do the same if it were us? It is an unfortunate fact that 'brave' terrorists who hide in mountain caves and make videos declaring that they will fight a jihad on the world for the cause of their people (but I don't recall 'their people' saying "please, fight a jihad for us") will then go and hide amongst civilians in the belief that the Israelis won't attack there. It is extremely unfortunate that civilians get killed - they don't want war and destruction, but the combatants will bring it to them because they don't actually possess the courage to find a battle ground on which to meet their opponents. Well, actually, the Afghans mostly did; but not the Iraqis nor the Hezbollah.
I saw a filmed report this morning that clearly shows Katyusha rockets being fired from within a civilian area. This naturally provoked the bombing raid that the world is now condemning. Do we know whether the civilians were prevented from leaving by Hezbollah (as happened in Iraq)?
Many Arabic countries have waged war against the Israelis. I remember the Yom Kippur war in the 60's - even wrote to the Israeli consulate and volunteered my support.
I agree with Golach about the funding as well. How do a small band of terrorists manage to pay for all this weaponry? We are not talking about a few hundred or even thousands of pounds. The 'bill' must be running into millions now - so who is footing the bill? Behind all of these conflicts lies money - financial gain. Countries that make munitions need to sell them - they don't care who buys them or for what purpose. Neither will they care how they are used. Those who supply the Israelis are just as guilty here as those supplying the terrorists.
Dreadnought
31-Jul-06, 09:57
Welcome back, Golach.
As you infer, it is a country's right to defend itself against attack. Hezbollah has declared war on the Israelis; wouldn't we do the same if it were us?
Obviously not, as Dublin was not reduced to rubble by the RAF.
SNIP
Those who supply the Israelis are just as guilty here as those supplying
the terrorists.[/COLOR]
A perfectly made point; the protaginists here are nothing but puppets for other interests.
Meanwhile the civilians are being murdered on both sides..................
Obviously not, as Dublin was not reduced to rubble by the RAF.
Yeah.. but a different scale?
Lolabelle
31-Jul-06, 10:10
I wonder how long it will be before a number of other countries decide that enough is enough and go to war with America and Britain. The song and dance made by the USA because a few thousand Americans were killed on 9/11 and the song and dance made at the death of a few people in London indicates to me that they and us are not too happy when subjected to a piece of their own medicine. Apart from 9/11 America has never been truly attacked at home since Pearl Harbour. Perhaps the time has come when more than a few disgruntled nations decide that enough is enough and the bully gets his come- uppance.
I have been ambivalent about Israel and the Jews for a long time but my present feeling is one of absolute disgust and I must admit that I am ashamed to be considered British.
In Australia the majority of people feel the same as most of you guys do. But what I have noticed here is that some of you are concerned about the UK being involved in what I could only describe as Bush's Crusade, (well the US anyway). But Australian people feel that we will be tainted by the US dirt dripping everywhere also, because our PM is also a bit of a Bush Bum Kisser, in my opinion. I often feel like Aust, is a bit of a joke in the worlds eyes, but I don't think most even realise that we are also backing Bush and his cronies too. I don't know if it is good or not????
Are we little wimps following along with the US & UK? Or are we not even acknowledged as being an ally, makes you feel like being involved is worth it. Our PM is only snivelling around the heels of Bush, because we are so close to a very over populated Indonesia. We need the US for a big brother.
Makes me ashamed to have voted in such a dud. (But the other one was worse!)
The partition of Palestine and the creation of Israel was done by the United Nations in November 1947. .
UNITED NATIONS - General Assembly - A/RES/181(II)(A+B)29 November 1947
Resolution 181 (II). Future government of Palestine
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/62c13fb98d54fe240525672700581383/7f0af2bd897689b785256c330061d253!OpenDocument
As usual, the myth is far more convenient for certain purposes than the truth.
How big was Israel then? How much more land do they occupy now?
If Israel were to withdraw to their 1948 boundaries the fighting would stop overnight.
Your myth that the UN gave the Zionists the West Bank and Gaza is much more convenient than the truth though isn't it?
lorraine_2406
31-Jul-06, 10:30
Anybody watch panorama last night into how of some of the funding comes from the UK through charities. Israel will never beat the terrorists as how they have acted has just given the Arabs more fuel for there fire although they have to do something airpower and artillery is not the answer.
As you infer, it is a country's right to defend itself against attack.
Then you would agree that Palestine and Lebanon have every right to defend themselves against Israel?
In Australia the majority of people feel the same as most of you guys do. But what I have noticed here is that some of you are concerned about the UK being involved in what I could only describe as Bush's Crusade, (well the US anyway). But Australian people feel that we will be tainted by the US dirt dripping everywhere also, because our PM is also a bit of a Bush Bum Kisser, in my opinion. I often feel like Aust, is a bit of a joke in the worlds eyes, but I don't think most even realise that we are also backing Bush and his cronies too. I don't know if it is good or not????
Are we little wimps following along with the US & UK? Or are we not even acknowledged as being an ally, makes you feel like being involved is worth it. Our PM is only snivelling around the heels of Bush, because we are so close to a very over populated Indonesia. We need the US for a big brother.
Makes me ashamed to have voted in such a dud. (But the other one was worse!)
Lolabelle, never fear. We all know that the Aussies are the most respected authorities on barbies and throwing a good party; oh, and sailing as well. Don't forget, Bush himself is just a puppet... put up front so that we don't see the military hawks who would be out of a job if all were peace and quiet.
Personally, I think that many Amercians dive into these conflicts with good intentions. Help out the nice guy, beat up the bad guy - very much part of their socio-historical ethos of being seen as the heros. Then, later, they find that it wasn't such a good idea after all. ;)
If Israel were to withdraw to their 1948 boundaries the fighting would stop overnight.
I don't think so. In the 1960's Israel was (on the surface anyway) sitting peaceably within those 1948 boundaries. Then they were invaded. I am sure that if all was returned to the way it were in the 1960s that somekind of invasion (or connived defence) would happen sooner or later.
Then you would agree that Palestine and Lebanon have every right to defend themselves against Israel?
Quite, they are on a wrong footing the longer they stay in those areas and the longer they continue the bombardment. I do support the comment that Israel is over-reacting / being somewhat severe in its response.
It appears that there is speculation that the building collapsed many hours after it was struck. If so then it is funny that it took so long to get the bodies out. There is also suspicions that the Hezbollah blew up the building, wtc7 comes to mind???? Conspiracy theory? Probably, too soon to say for sure.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3283816,00.html
Dreadnought
31-Jul-06, 18:40
In Australia the majority of people feel the same as most of you guys do. But what I have noticed here is that some of you are concerned about the UK being involved in what I could only describe as Bush's Crusade, (well the US anyway). But Australian people feel that we will be tainted by the US dirt dripping everywhere also, because our PM is also a bit of a Bush Bum Kisser, in my opinion. I often feel like Aust, is a bit of a joke in the worlds eyes, but I don't think most even realise that we are also backing Bush and his cronies too. I don't know if it is good or not????
Are we little wimps following along with the US & UK? Or are we not even acknowledged as being an ally, makes you feel like being involved is worth it. Our PM is only snivelling around the heels of Bush, because we are so close to a very over populated Indonesia. We need the US for a big brother.
Makes me ashamed to have voted in such a dud. (But the other one was worse!)
Just like Britain and Canada's troops, your guys are there for the US Air FARCE to drop bombs on by 'mistake'. But it's ok because it's 'friendly' fire.
I don't think so. In the 1960's Israel was (on the surface anyway) sitting peaceably within those 1948 boundaries. Then they were invaded. I am sure that if all was returned to the way it were in the 1960s that somekind of invasion (or connived defence) would happen sooner or later.
The 1967 Arab-Israeli war started with a pre-emptive strike against Egypt by Israel. Israel was not invaded, Israel did all the invading.
'In June 1967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.'
Menahem Begin
"I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to The Sinai would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive war. He knew it and we knew it."
Yitzhak Rabin, Israel's Chief of Staff in 1967
oldmarine
31-Jul-06, 19:38
Looks like some serious problems on this thread. I certainly don't have any good answers.
Looks like some serious problems on this thread. I certainly don't have any good answers.
None of us have. There are none.
pultneytooner
31-Jul-06, 23:07
I think what Israel is trying to do is enrage the muslims in the middle east, and thus bring Syria and Iran into war against it, which might happen as the people of both Syria and Iran support the Hezbollah ( wether they supply Hezbollah with weapons in still not for sure). As soon as Iran enters the war then USA can declare war against Iran which is what both US and Israel secretly wants. They want to destroy Iran before Iran develops a nuclear missile. If Iran manages to develop a missile then Iran will have a major say in the Middle Eastern politics. And that what US and Isreal does not want.
I think what Israel is trying to do is enrage the muslims in the middle east, and thus bring Syria and Iran into war against it, which might happen as the people of both Syria and Iran support the Hezbollah ( wether they supply Hezbollah with weapons in still not for sure). As soon as Iran enters the war then USA can declare war against Iran which is what both US and Israel secretly wants. They want to destroy Iran before Iran develops a nuclear missile. If Iran manages to develop a missile then Iran will have a major say in the Middle Eastern politics. And that what US and Isreal does not want.
They want to destroy Iran alright but it has nothing to do with nuclear missiles and a lot to do with oil.
Dreadnought
31-Jul-06, 23:43
They want to destroy Iran alright but it has nothing to do with nuclear missiles and a lot to do with oil.
Just like Operation Iraqi Liberation.
pultneytooner
31-Jul-06, 23:47
They want to destroy Iran alright but it has nothing to do with nuclear missiles and a lot to do with oil.
This is possibly quite true but do you not think that Iran having nuclear weapons would lead to them having to have a bigger say in middle east politics?
Dreadnought
01-Aug-06, 00:01
This is possibly quite true but do you not think that Iran having nuclear weapons would lead to them having to have a bigger say in middle east politics?
And why shouldn't they have a bigger say? Who the hell are we to tell other countries what they can and cannot do within their own borders?
pultneytooner
01-Aug-06, 00:03
And why shouldn't they have a bigger say? Who the hell are we to tell other countries what they can and cannot do within their own borders? Eh, no argument from me there......:D
This is possibly quite true but do you not think that Iran having nuclear weapons would lead to them having to have a bigger say in middle east politics which america and israel do not want them to have?
The 1967 Arab-Israeli war started with a pre-emptive strike against Egypt by Israel. Israel was not invaded, Israel did all the invading.Fred, you missed out the small details of Nasser having made threats to attack Israel along with several other Arab States for some considerably period prior to the Six Day War. He had also made little secret of the fact that in addition he was hoping to position himself as Leader of a Pan Arab Nation.
He had , for some time been increasing and updating his armed forces. He morally blackmailed King Hussein of Jordan into signing a Mutual Defence Pact.
Finally, Nasser ordered the UN to remove it’s Emergency Forces who were situated on the Israeli Egyptian Border and who had been placed there to ensure that neither of the two Countries attacked the other.
Egypt also escalated the situation by blockading the Gulf of Aqaba to Israeli shipping in effect cutting Israel’s only access to the Red Sea and thereby to the whole Southern Hemisphere.
Having done all that he then started t move troops to the Israeli Border.
Israel was left with the choice of doing nothing and risk a concerted attack by several Arab Nations acting together, or taking some sort of action.
The Israeli’s first move was to remove the threat from the Egyptian Air Force by destroying some 400 Military aircraft.
The BBC contains the following description of the causes and actions of the Six Day War.
“The path for war was cleared on 16 May when President Nasser ordered the withdrawal of the United Nations Emergency Forces from the Egyptian-Israeli border
The .(Israeli) attack follows a build-up of Arab military forces along the Israeli border.
The Arab states had been preparing to go to war against Israel with Egypt, Jordan and Syria being aided by Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Sudan and Algeria.
On 27 May the President of Egypt, Abdel Nasser, declared: "Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight."
Egypt signed a pact with Jordan at the end of May declaring an attack on one was an attack on both. This was seen by Israel as a clear sign of preparation for all-out war.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/5/newsid_2654000/2654251.stm
The Israelis requested Jordan not to involve itself in the War but Jordan refused and also attacked Israel.
Fred, you are fzctually correct in the minute part you have stated, you did, however, conveniently allow some rather important matters to excape mention.
Nasser's insistance that the UN remove the one thing which was in the way of an invasion leaves very little doubt about his reasoning.
Unless, of course, the sight of those pale blue helmets hurt his eyes, perhaps a duller colour might have been less of a problem. .
This is possibly quite true but do you not think that Iran having nuclear weapons would lead to them having to have a bigger say in middle east politics?
Only in that America would think twice about using nuclear weapons on them. Nuclear weapons arn't much use except as a deterrent, a last ditch suicide rather than defeat of a nation.
What it's all about is ensuring China always has to buy oil on the world market and pay for it in dollars. Money is just pieces of paper, the only thing that gives a ten pound note value is that you can always take it to the Bank of England and exchange it for gold or another currency. The only thing that gives a dollar note any value is that you can always take it along to a bourse and buy oil with it, America has no other way to back their currency, hasn't had since 1972.
That is why we went to war in Afghanistan, that is why we went to war in Iraq and that is why we will go to war with Iran. That is why all those innocent women and children died in agony.
Fred, you missed out the small details of Nasser having made threats to attack Israel along with several other Arab States for some considerably period prior to the Six Day War.
The only detail that counts is thet Israel attacked Egypt, Egypt didn't attack Israel.
All the rest is just hot air and wishful thinking like everything else to do with Israel.
The only detail that counts is thet Israel attacked Egypt, Egypt didn't attack Israel.
All the rest is just hot air and wishful thinking like everything else to do with Israel.
Excuse me Fred, what about this attack by the arabs or does that not count, because Israel whupped them?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War
[QUOTE=golach]Excuse me Fred, what about this attack by the arabs or does that not count, because Israel whupped them?
Egypt and Syria didn't invade Israel, they invaded Sinai and the Golan Heights, Israeli occupied territories not Israel.
Like I said, hot air and wishfull thinking.
[quote=golach]Excuse me Fred, what about this attack by the arabs or does that not count, because Israel whupped them?
Egypt and Syria didn't invade Israel, they invaded Sinai and the Golan Heights, Israeli occupied territories not Israel.
Like I said, hot air and wishfull thinking.
Israel still gave the combined Arab nations a very bloody nose though did they not?
pultneytooner
01-Aug-06, 09:47
Only in that America would think twice about using nuclear weapons on them. Nuclear weapons arn't much use except as a deterrent, a last ditch suicide rather than defeat of a nation.
What it's all about is ensuring China always has to buy oil on the world market and pay for it in dollars. Money is just pieces of paper, the only thing that gives a ten pound note value is that you can always take it to the Bank of England and exchange it for gold or another currency. The only thing that gives a dollar note any value is that you can always take it along to a bourse and buy oil with it, America has no other way to back their currency, hasn't had since 1972.
That is why we went to war in Afghanistan, that is why we went to war in Iraq and that is why we will go to war with Iran. That is why all those innocent women and children died in agony. Wasn't it the case that iraq was considering selling it's oil in euros rather than the dollar and this threatened the american economy as will putin's decision to set up an oil and gas stock exchange in Russia, that would trade only in Roubles?
Regarding afghanistan, aren't the opium fields back in full production now?
Money is just pieces of paper, the only thing that gives a ten pound note value is that you can always take it to the Bank of England and exchange it for gold or another currency..
English bank notes no longer promise to pay the bearer gold or sterling on demand. Scottish notes still promise to pay in sterling(silver). Check your notes.
When the Taleban were in control in Afghanistan, they stopped the production of opium. As soon as the USA and UK came in the natives started to grow again.
did not know that about the English notes... *cogs turning*:D
did not know that about the English notes... *cogs turning*:D
I don't indulge in the war of the web sites so I can't quote chapter and verse. I am told that Arab money men are buying up the gold reserves and will be going onto a gold based currency which will render the virtual money of our society worthless. The economic collapse of the West will then be almost inevitable.
The economic collapse of the West will then be almost inevitable.
Would it be justified if we use our military might to crush them in that case?
Would it be justified if we use our military might to crush them in that case?
What if our military might isn't enough to crush them? As far as justifiable is concerned, this could lead to great debate on a moral level without any obvious historical precedent. The war at this level would probably destroy enough of the East and West to render money obsolete anyway.
pultneytooner
01-Aug-06, 15:26
Would it be justified if we use our military might to crush them in that case? And how far would we go to protect those interests?
Iran are also pushing for a change to selling their oil in euros .
I don't indulge in the war of the web sites so I can't quote chapter and verse. I am told that Arab money men are buying up the gold reserves and will be going onto a gold based currency which will render the virtual money of our society worthless. The economic collapse of the West will then be almost inevitable.
I heard that also and I also know alot of people who have invested all their savings into buying gold... eventhough you have to pay to keep it... it is still the wisest investment currently I'm told.
This is possibly quite true but do you not think that Iran having nuclear weapons would lead to them having to have a bigger say in middle east politics?
again... I need to mention that America is using depleted uranium in Iraq.... alot of it. 500 tonnes of depleted uranium was used in the first TWO months of the Iraq war. They are radioactive and are nuclear weapons in their own right... now it is strongly suspected if not confirmed that Israel are using du weapons in Lebanon. America and Britain also used du weapons in Afghanistan. NATO used depleted uranium ammunition in Bosnia and Kosovo. Why are they so concerned that Iran is playing around with pieces of enriched uranium? I think it is a "do as I say, not do as I do policy."
I think it is a "do as I say, not do as I do policy."
Hasn't it always been so?
always.......and forever more.
Only in that America would think twice about using nuclear weapons on them. Nuclear weapons arn't much use except as a deterrent, a last ditch suicide rather than defeat of a nation.
What it's all about is ensuring China always has to buy oil on the world market and pay for it in dollars. Money is just pieces of paper, the only thing that gives a ten pound note value is that you can always take it to the Bank of England and exchange it for gold or another currency. The only thing that gives a dollar note any value is that you can always take it along to a bourse and buy oil with it, America has no other way to back their currency, hasn't had since 1972.
That is why we went to war in Afghanistan, that is why we went to war in Iraq and that is why we will go to war with Iran. That is why all those innocent women and children died in agony.
i too believe the wars are about oil... from Big Oils viewpoint I think what they really want to do is cap the production while sidelining their "peak oil" claim to keep prices high and prosperous. Tis true Saddam had a nasty habit of yanking the oil market up and down... this pleased noone. From the neo-cons view I think they thought.. cheap war.. we'll bomb the place and they'll pay for reconstruction with their oil sales.
but.... when you look at what was attached to the invasion plan for Iraq you find it is much bigger than oil.
101 page document drafted by the neo-cons attached to the invasion plan was the "economy plan" entitled "Moving the Iraqi Economy from Recovery to Sustainable Growth"...
a "todo" list if you will... planned for preelection in Iraq.
Basically a corporate takeover...
Pages 8 & 21: A big income tax cut for Iraq's wealthiest and complete elimination of taxes on business revenues.
Pages 35 & 73: The quick sale of Iraq's banks, bridges and water companies to foreign operators.
Page 45: The application for Iraq to join the WTO, ghostwritten by US gov. contractors..
Page 28: A "market friendly" customs law-a kind of super NAFTA-aiming for a complete wipeout of tariffs that had previously protected Iraq's industry from cheap imports.
Page 44: New copyright laws protecting foreign software, music and drug companies.
strange stuff to be attached to an invasion plan me thinks........:roll:
And why shouldn't they have a bigger say? Who the hell are we to tell other countries what they can and cannot do within their own borders?
Have to agree with you there Dreadnought! :confused
Yep, we've absolutely no right to collectively poke our noses into another country's affairs and tell them what to do [evil]
[quote=fred]
Israel still gave the combined Arab nations a very bloody nose though did they not?
There are no winners in any war just dead people and we were very nearly all losers in that one, it came within a hairs bredth of turning into WWIII with America and the USSR throwing ICBMs at each other.
I remember being issued with a ration book as a result of that war.
Wasn't it the case that iraq was considering selling it's oil in euros rather than the dollar and this threatened the american economy as will putin's decision to set up an oil and gas stock exchange in Russia, that would trade only in Roubles?
Regarding afghanistan, aren't the opium fields back in full production now?
There has been a lot of talk about challenging dollar hegemony from Russia to Venezuela.
Before the War on Terror there was the War on Drugs as an excuse for regime change in Afghanistan. Under Taliban rule opium production was stamped out completely, since we overthrew the Taliban there has been more opium grown than ever, 2003 was a record year. It's a vast industry, finances Islamic groups on one side of the world and who knows how many Congressmen via organised crime on the other.
There has been a lot of talk about challenging dollar hegemony from Russia to Venezuela.
Before the War on Terror there was the War on Drugs as an excuse for regime change in Afghanistan. Under Taliban rule opium production was stamped out completely, since we overthrew the Taliban there has been more opium grown than ever, 2003 was a record year. It's a vast industry, finances Islamic groups on one side of the world and who knows how many Congressmen via organised crime on the other.
The Taliban stopped production of opium because it had/has a ten year supply in storage.
English bank notes no longer promise to pay the bearer gold or sterling on demand. Scottish notes still promise to pay in sterling(silver). Check your notes.
The pound has been a fiat currency since 1931. Britain does have gold reserves, I don't know how much I think a large portion of it went to Brussels but we still own it. We have the ability to pay foreign banks in gold if they want it in gold but can't guarantee to do so. We have gold but not enough.
I think you will find that the "sterling" referred to on a Scottish note is pounds sterling not sterling silver.
America tied the dollar to gold in 1949 at $35 an ounce, with inflation the price of gold rose and America continued to give an ounce for $35, by 1971 most of their gold reserves had gone and what was left wasn't exactly theirs, it was being held as security. That's when they ditched the gold standard, did a deal with the Saudi royal family and tied the dollar to oil instead.
I don't indulge in the war of the web sites so I can't quote chapter and verse. I am told that Arab money men are buying up the gold reserves and will be going onto a gold based currency which will render the virtual money of our society worthless. The economic collapse of the West will then be almost inevitable.
Military muscle is the most powerful currency in the world. TNT>Au
The Taliban stopped production of opium because it had/has a ten year supply in storage.
Don't believe everything the American State Department tells you.
It appears that there is speculation that the building collapsed many hours after it was struck. If so then it is funny that it took so long to get the bodies out. There is also suspicions that the Hezbollah blew up the building, wtc7 comes to mind???? Conspiracy theory? Probably, too soon to say for sure.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3283816,00.html
Eyewitnes reports say that the building collapsed 10 minutes after it was hit, rescue services didn't respond till morning because it was too dangerous trying to get there or do anything in the dark.
They also say that Hezbollah was not there, no rockets were fired from the village. They say that if Hezbollah had been there the civilians wouldn't have been, when Hezbollah moves in the civillians run for it because they know that airstrikes will be coming.
peter macdonald
01-Aug-06, 23:59
one of the most distressing things about the conflict in the middle east is the lack of calls for moderation from the moderate community of Islam This is a religion based on peace love and mercy and yet the silence is deafening from the moderate Imams
Im beginning to wonder if the downfall of Israel is just the first stage of an endeavour to in the end manufacture the destruction of the Western world by the extreme forces in Islamic society ie Bin ladin etc and it pains me to say Im not hearing too much protest in the Muslim world
Hammas and Hizbollah suggest they are nothing more than defenders of the Palestinian community so why have they invited Israeli forces on to them by acts of provocation therefore putting the lives of lebanese /palestinian civilians at risk??? I think we have to look at a broader picture now and see where the biggest threat to western society is coming from and ask the question "why is moderate Islam so quiet"??
Ps Sri cant get the images of the rejoicing Palestinians on TV at 9/11 out of my mind ....
Don't believe everything the American State Department tells you.
I don't. My information does not come from websites but from those who are involved.
I don't. My information does not come from websites but from those who are involved.
I find that very hard to believe.
one of the most distressing things about the conflict in the middle east is the lack of calls for moderation from the moderate community of Islam This is a religion based on peace love and mercy and yet the silence is deafening from the moderate Imams
Im beginning to wonder if the downfall of Israel is just the first stage of an endeavour to in the end manufacture the destruction of the Western world by the extreme forces in Islamic society ie Bin ladin etc and it pains me to say Im not hearing too much protest in the Muslim world
Hammas and Hizbollah suggest they are nothing more than defenders of the Palestinian community so why have they invited Israeli forces on to them by acts of provocation therefore putting the lives of lebanese /palestinian civilians at risk??? I think we have to look at a broader picture now and see where the biggest threat to western society is coming from and ask the question "why is moderate Islam so quiet"??
Ps Sri cant get the images of the rejoicing Palestinians on TV at 9/11 out of my mind ....
If anyone was ever wondering why the Arab world hates us look no further this says it all.
I find that very hard to believe.
Are you insinuating that I am a liar sir. I am not.
Are you insinuating that I am a liar sir. I am not.
I still don't believe it.
I still don't believe it.
Even though you don't believe it, the truth remains the truth. What don't you believe? The fact of the opium store or the source I got it from. Not all of us rely on the internet for our information. My source is a man who deals in Afghan carpets who has spent considerable time in Afghanistan and a lot of time in the HIndu Kush on the Chitral side of the border. His information I trust. You believe what you want to suit your conspiracy theory but I prefer facts irregardless of my beliefs.
j4bberw0ck
02-Aug-06, 12:49
The pound has been a fiat currency since 1931. Britain does have gold reserves, I don't know how much I think a large portion of it went to Brussels but we still own it.
Sort of, fred, sort of. Gordon Brown sold $4 billions worth of gold reserves. He preannounced the sale and the price of course fell, so he ditched the reserves at the bottom of the market. Only a politician could do such a stupid thing. That leaves 300 tons of bullion in reserve. The price of gold has gone up from $280 an ounce to $700 since. The money he got from the sale he "invested" (ahem) in euro, US $ and Japanese Yen.
I think you will find that the "sterling" referred to on a Scottish note is pounds sterling not sterling silver.
Correct.
That's when they ditched the gold standard, did a deal with the Saudi royal family and tied the dollar to oil instead.
Then you'd surely expect to see a strong dollar just now instead of a weak one...... or do I smell another juicy conspiracy in the offing? :confused: Do tell......
Correct.
......
What is, thefore, a pound sterling as opposed to the pound on the English notes.?What does the "sterling" signify?
j4bberw0ck
02-Aug-06, 13:09
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_currency has information. And I apologise. The involvement of sterling silver is historical and the reason why the pound is referred to as a pound sterling. I didn't know that, but I suppose knowledge is one of the joys of life :lol:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_currency has information. And I apologise. The involvement of sterling silver is historical and the reason why the pound is referred to as a pound sterling. I didn't know that, but I suppose knowledge is one of the joys of life :lol:
Good grief, some-one admitting a mistake. How unusual.:D
j4bberw0ck
02-Aug-06, 13:39
I always considered admitting mistakes the flip side of the opinionated git psyche....... but life's usually disappointing on that score. Thought I'd do my bit to redress the balance :lol::lol:
I always considered admitting mistakes the flip side of the opinionated git psyche.......
The balance between is rarely achieved.
The carnage continues and the world bleats. When Iraq invaded Kuwait, 99% of the world united against Saddam. How many nations are rushing to step in bertween the protagonists in the Middle East. Is it because Israel has got weapons of mass destruction beyond dispute that the the armies of the free world aren't marching against Israel because of their invasion of Lebanon? Or is it the fact that the Lebanese Merchant Banks don't own as much of the rest of the world as the Kuwati Banks. How quickly we rushed into Serbia but no-one said boo about Chechnya.
Looking at twentyfirst century Earth, what can a thinking man do but despair?
Gleber2 - sorry to interrupt, but I think you might need to clear some space in your Inbox ASAP! An error message is telling me that you have exceeded your capacity and cannot receive any more messages until you make some space!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[lol]
BTW, since writing that last post, I have just noticed that I am now classed as a ".Orger" Whooopppeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!! :lol:
Time to install my avatar soon!!!! *Excited*
Israel seem to be quite happy to take things into their own hands, they don't need a coalition to stamp out Hizbollah, at least they don't think they do other than the supply of arms. Personally speaking, and I know this is shallow of me but the whole region needs a good clear out. They are all swimming around in a cesspit of their own making anyway. Let them get on with it. I feel sorry for civillians being killed, but take a gun off of a dead Hizbollah fighter then, Bingo!, you have an innocent civillian for a western photo shoot. The whole thing is far too complicated to morally resolve on a message forum, histories run deep, it has come to the point with me where I am not interested in it anymore. And I suspect neither are 90% of the world's population if they are genuinely honest with themselves. Maybe that is the reason for the latency in international aid/attention/diplomatic resolution?
Althought it pains me to say it:) , I have to agree with most of your last post Rheghead. I would like to see the rest of the world unite to stop the OTT agressor ie Israel. If this cancerous sore is not cured soon the spread to the rest of our poor benighted planet is inevitable.
If this cancerous sore is not cured soon the spread to the rest of our poor benighted planet is inevitable.
The real cancerous sore was seen by many as the daily rocket attacks by Hizbollah onto Israeli towns since Israel pulled out the last time. Many people see Israel as having implementing great restraint over this nuisance. How many of us would exercise restraint if a gang of youths kept on throwing stones at our windows for the last 5 or 6 years?
What Israeli is doing now can be seen as an attempted cure, not by all of course but by many.
The real cancerous sore was seen by many as the daily rocket attacks by Hizbollah onto Israeli towns since Israel pulled out the last time. Many people see Israel as having implementing great restraint over this nuisance. How many of us would exercise restraint if a gang of youths kept on throwing stones at our windows for the last 5 or 6 years?
What Israeli is doing now can be seen as an attempted cure, not by all of course but by many.
I was referring to the cancerous sore that is Israel, Lebanon and Palestine. What Hezbollah and others have been doing is picking at the sore so that no healing is possible. The root caues of the infection needs to be adressed and that means not taking sides but viewing the whole sorry mess from the point of all of us on this planet. Soon we will all be infected and it will be brother against brother as the thirst for blood and violence breaks out of the confines of civilisation and condmns us all.
it has come to the point with me where I am not interested in it anymore. And I suspect neither are 90% of the world's population if they are genuinely honest with themselves.
I would say that you are correct. Once a conflict like that goes on for a while the figures of 40, 60, 100 dead etc, wash over without registering and you reach for the remote control to see how Pete is getting on in Big Brother.
In any case, with things like Tesco and ASDA to worry about, you cannot expect people to carry the weight of the World on their shoulders as well.
A lottery ticket, a drammie and a spot of Emmerdale and Eastenders lets you forget that it's a mad World we live in.
Then you'd surely expect to see a strong dollar just now instead of a weak one...... or do I smell another juicy conspiracy in the offing? :confused: Do tell......
I'm seeing a strong dollar, considering they have to borrow over $2billion a day just to finance their trade deficit, China, Saudi and Korea have been selling off dollars and more oil producers are accepting payment in euros.
Oil prices today are lower than they were in 1980 yet America is running a 7% of GDP deficit.
I'd been wondering if America was purchasing its own debt to keep the dollar as high as it is.
Even though you don't believe it, the truth remains the truth. What don't you believe? The fact of the opium store or the source I got it from. Not all of us rely on the internet for our information. My source is a man who deals in Afghan carpets who has spent considerable time in Afghanistan and a lot of time in the HIndu Kush on the Chitral side of the border. His information I trust. You believe what you want to suit your conspiracy theory but I prefer facts irregardless of my beliefs.
Facts?
Hearsay.
Facts?
Hearsay.
Then how do you describe the "facts" you continually trawl the net for and repeat ad nauseum to support your ideas..
Will someone please close this thread. It is clearly about Caithnessian egos and not the subject in hand.
Will someone please close this thread. It is clearly about Caithnessian egos and not the subject in hand.
I am merely looking for definitions to support a point of view I don't agree with. If this is a display of Caithnessian ego then Mea Culpa. If,however, one is going to be called a liar then one is entitled to more than a sarcastic single word.
Then how do you describe the "facts" you continually trawl the net for and repeat ad nauseum to support your ideas..
Verifiable.
Verifiable.
By the words of other men on the net. Do you believe everything you read? How do you verify the news reported by a media that you obviously believe to be involved in some kind of conspiracy to mislead us all. The source I quoted was involved on the ground , so to speak, at the relevant time and was involved with the Mujehadeen(sp?). I have no need to verify his statements. He is an honest man with no axe to grind.
Your laconic replies in this part of the thread makes a pleasant change from your usual loquacity, in some ways.
By the words of other men on the net. Do you believe everything you read? How do you verify the news reported by a media that you obviously believe to be involved in some kind of conspiracy to mislead us all. The source I quoted was involved on the ground , so to speak, at the relevant time and was involved with the Mujehadeen(sp?). I have no need to verify his statements. He is an honest man with no axe to grind.
Your laconic replies in this part of the thread makes a pleasant change from your usual loquacity, in some ways.
I still don't believe it.
I still don't believe it.
Your choice. Don't care.
Dreadnought
03-Aug-06, 00:43
How quickly we rushed into Serbia but no-one said boo about Chechnya.
http://www.balkanalysis.com/?p=363
pultneytooner
03-Aug-06, 07:49
I knew a ugandan family who were expelled from their country by the idi amin regime, gleber2 knowing an afghani is not exactly a mind blowing concept to understand.
Little wonder the world is in such a state if we can't even hold a discussion on a website without bickering.
j4bberw0ck
03-Aug-06, 10:18
I'm seeing a strong dollar, considering they have to borrow over $2billion a day just to finance their trade deficit, China, Saudi and Korea have been selling off dollars and more oil producers are accepting payment in euros.
These two statements are mutually exclusive. The dollar is currently weak (i.e. you can buy more of them for less money) although it has strengthened slightly in recent weeks with interest rate rises. But people don't want to hold dollars because they fear a collapse of the US housing market and the economy with it. So, weak dollar.
The ability of the country to borrow is not necessarily related to the exchange rate of its currency. Like lending to a plc, it's about expectation of future performance and only marginally about current performance.
I'd been wondering if America was purchasing its own debt to keep the dollar as high as it is.
That's an interesting concept. Care to flesh out that thought? How they'd do it? And why they want a stronger dollar when it makes their exports more expensive at a time when as you point out their balance of payments is spectacularly arse about face?
I'm afraid you've confused me again...... I'm not always so slow, so please make it simple! ;)
These two statements are mutually exclusive. The dollar is currently weak (i.e. you can buy more of them for less money) although it has strengthened slightly in recent weeks with interest rate rises. But people don't want to hold dollars because they fear a collapse of the US housing market and the economy with it. So, weak dollar.
114 yen, I don't call that weak.
You arn't confusing a weak dollar with a strong euro are you?
I knew a ugandan family who were expelled from their country by the idi amin regime, gleber2 knowing an afghani is not exactly a mind blowing concept to understand.
Little wonder the world is in such a state if we can't even hold a discussion on a website without bickering.
My friend is Scottish but speaks Pashtu and lives with the Afghanis,trading with them and working with them. He is also a well known author of books about fish and fishing. He and I share a mutual interest in the planetary drug business.
It is a pity that debates on the board become the Battle of the Websites to the exclusion of other sources of information. Some people choose to believe what they want in the blinkers of their egos to support their own hobby horses.
j4bberw0ck
03-Aug-06, 14:24
114 yen, I don't call that weak.
One day, fred, it'll occur to you that it's not important what you call it, it's what the rest of the world thinks.......... That's like saying the dollar's strong because it has 100 cents in it.
You arn't confusing a weak dollar with a strong euro are you?
No, freddy, I'm not. Your own confusion though is evident, so I think this can just drift back to being a thread about Israel.
Speaking of which, since Hezbollah are funded and armed by Iran / Syria, and talks between the EU and Iran over their nuclear research broke up, and within a couple of days Hezbollah goad Israel into retaliatory action, does anyone see a connexion?
Now the media is full of "poor Palestine / poor Lebanon / nasty Israel" while the Iranians scurry round finishing off their plutonium synthesis reactors out of the gaze of the world's media. And that complete loony that's running Iran (the one who wants "to erase Israel from the Earth by any means") will have nuclear weapons; the Israelis will inevitably bomb the crap out of Iran and maybe Syria too to prevent pre-emptive nuclear strikes or use of dirty bombs.
Sounds to me as though Iran (in deflecting attention away from its nuclear ambitions) has won round one. I think Israel sees itself as fighting for its life, right now, hence the violence; it may be the only way of avoiding a nuclear conflict.
One day, fred, it'll occur to you that it's not important what you call it, it's what the rest of the world thinks.......... That's like saying the dollar's strong because it has 100 cents in it.
Well I don't know what the rest of the world is thinking but I'm thinking the dollar isn't doing too bad at all for a country with $2billion a day trade deficit.
No, freddy, I'm not. Your own confusion though is evident, so I think this can just drift back to being a thread about Israel.
Speaking of which, since Hezbollah are funded and armed by Iran / Syria, and talks between the EU and Iran over their nuclear research broke up, and within a couple of days Hezbollah goad Israel into retaliatory action, does anyone see a connexion?
America invaded Afghanistan a sovereign nation on false a false pretext.
America invaded Iraq a sovereign nation on a false pretext.
Israel is invading Lebanon, a sovereign nation, on a false pretext.
America and Israel are treatening Syria and Iran on a false pretext.
Take out a map of the world and look at it, anyone see a connection?
j4bberw0ck
03-Aug-06, 21:21
Well I don't know what the rest of the world is thinking
Yes, thank you, we'd noticed.
The other thing I notice is that you never respond to questions........ other than by another question....... :roll:
Night night fred. Sleep well.
thought people might find this interesting if they haven't seen it already....
George Galloway on Sky News speaking about his views on the war going on between Hezbollah and Israel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=249JaIaubVw
thought people might find this interesting if they haven't seen it already....
George Galloway on Sky News speaking about his views on the war going on between Hezbollah and Israel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=249JaIaubVw
Who in their right mind would listen to a failed Celebrity BB whos claim to fame is the he was Rula Lenska's cat
everybody likes to have a little bit of fun... well, besides you Golach!
Everything said by Galloway is true, my only problem with the interview was the hostile manner in which he took on Anna Botting – I think it actually cost him some listening, as people may have just gotten angry with his very aggressive and arrogant tone.
I totally agree with Galloway’s paradigm analogy, and how we are not queuing up to give Israel a good pasting for decades of total flagrance of UN resolutions I will never know. The UN is a sham, it is SO embarrassing listening to our political leaders talking about diplomacy when innocent people are being slaughtered and we are all just standing back letting it happen.
I got emailed a series of photos today of a woman’s last seconds of life in her young sons arms – harrowing, and totally unnecessary. Fight against terrorism………..if I didn’t respect the forum rules I would tell you exactly what I think about the fight against terrorism.
and Tony's even finished talking.. he's off on holiday now!
I think George Galloway was ticked about her unrelenting pro/poor-Israel attitude.
I'm not sure I only saw the interview and not what preceded it. The fact that she was in Israel may have also been to blame. I always find her quite pleasant, and was shocked at Galloway's attitude - maybe he knows something I (we) don't. Anyway I thought it was unjustified and actually lost some of his message .
pultneytooner
09-Aug-06, 17:35
Sounds to me as though Iran (in deflecting attention away from its nuclear ambitions) has won round one. I think Israel sees itself as fighting for its life, right now, hence the violence; it may be the only way of avoiding a nuclear conflict. Iran isn't the nuclear terror in the area, israel are and willing to use it if they ever see defeat on the battlefront.
"Alan Hart, in his book "Zionism: The Real enemy of the Jews", reports on this conversation referring to nuclear weapons with Israeli PM Golda Meir in 1971:
“At a point I interrupted her to say: ‘Prime Minister, I want to be sure I understand what you’re saying…You are saying that if ever Israel was in danger of being defeated on the battlefield, it would be prepared to take the region and even the whole world down with it?’…Without the shortest of pauses of reflection…Golda replied, ‘Yes, that’s exactly what I am saying.’” "
j4bberw0ck
09-Aug-06, 17:48
Yep, but as long as Israel aren't threatened by a nutter with nukes who has publicly and frequently stated that his country's goal is the complete destruction and erasure of Israel by any means possible, it's not in their interests to use nuclear weapons. Give them what they see as no option, and I'm sure they'll do exactly what Golda Meir said.
That, after all, is why nations have nuclear weapons. Mostly tactical, these days; the strategic variety which everyone tends to see in their mind's eye when nuclear weapons are mentioned (the huge mushroom and the 20 megaton yield) are of limited use unless you like burning yourself.
Trouble is, of course, the guy in Iran is a nutter........
Yep, but as long as Israel aren't threatened by a nutter with nukes who has publicly and frequently stated that his country's goal is the complete destruction and erasure of Israel by any means possible, it's not in their interests to use nuclear weapons. Give them what they see as no option, and I'm sure they'll do exactly what Golda Meir said.
That, after all, is why nations have nuclear weapons. Mostly tactical, these days; the strategic variety which everyone tends to see in their mind's eye when nuclear weapons are mentioned (the huge mushroom and the 20 megaton yield) are of limited use unless you like burning yourself.
Trouble is, of course, the guy in Iran is a nutter........
Iran hasn't got any nuclear weapons.
Israel has.
Iran hasn't invaded anyone elses country.
Israel has been invading and occupying other peoples countries for over 50 years.
As for nutters, at least the president of Iran isn't an alcoholic cokehead (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/graphics/packageart/bush/bush_tsg.mov).
Israel has been invading and occupying other peoples countries for over 50 years.
.
50 years? Try 5000.
Yep, but as long as Israel aren't threatened by a nutter with nukes who has publicly and frequently stated that his country's goal is the complete destruction and erasure of Israel by any means possible, it's not in their interests to use nuclear weapons. Give them what they see as no option, and I'm sure they'll do exactly what Golda Meir said.
That, after all, is why nations have nuclear weapons. Mostly tactical, these days; the strategic variety which everyone tends to see in their mind's eye when nuclear weapons are mentioned (the huge mushroom and the 20 megaton yield) are of limited use unless you like burning yourself.
Trouble is, of course, the guy in Iran is a nutter........
Mad Mahmoud.. that's all we are coerced into thinking by the media. What makes you think he's more of a nutter than the warmongering western oligarchies?
Speaking of which, since Hezbollah are funded and armed by Iran / Syria, and talks between the EU and Iran over their nuclear research broke up, and within a couple of days Hezbollah goad Israel into retaliatory action, does anyone see a connexion?
Now the media is full of "poor Palestine / poor Lebanon / nasty Israel" while the Iranians scurry round finishing off their plutonium synthesis reactors out of the gaze of the world's media. And that complete loony that's running Iran (the one who wants "to erase Israel from the Earth by any means") will have nuclear weapons; the Israelis will inevitably bomb the crap out of Iran and maybe Syria too to prevent pre-emptive nuclear strikes or use of dirty bombs.
Sounds to me as though Iran (in deflecting attention away from its nuclear ambitions) has won round one. I think Israel sees itself as fighting for its life, right now, hence the violence; it may be the only way of avoiding a nuclear conflict.
where do you think Israel got their arsenal AND their nuclear weapons from????
and secondly.. has Mad Mahmoud said that he wants to build nuclear weapons? He has stated they wish to pursue nuclear energy generation. The MEDIA pump it into the minds of everyone that they want to build nuclear weapons. And, why shouldn't they have them if they want them if everybody else has them anyways? Maybe they too would like a "deterrent"?
and btw... Mad Mahmoud is not the only person nor country nor occupied territory in the Middle East that would like to see Israel either quit occupying land that is not theirs & bombing folk and be happy with what they got or pack their bags altogether.
j4bberw0ck
10-Aug-06, 08:11
Iran hasn't got any nuclear weapons.
True, so far as anyone knows. But if, say, you're Jewish, and your next door neighbour threatens to kill you and your family and burn down your house by any means possibile, and then starts producing sharpened steel blades but claims they're just for tent pegs, wouldn't a fleeting concern cross even your liberal mind? You might consider calling the police; but if the police won't respond or won't take action (as in the UN, a useless talking shop if ever there was one), you might eventually find it necessary to look after yourself.
Israel has.
Also true. We're on a roll here [lol] . Israel hasn't made frequent threats about the erasure of certain countries from the earth by any available means.
Israel has been invading and occupying other peoples countries for over 50 years.
Yep. Surprise, surprise....... they're not perfect. But they've shown willingness to remove the radical Jewish settlers and control their extremists, and occupation followed the 1967 war when the Arab world last attempted to remove Israel from the planet.
As for nutters, at least the president of Iran isn't an alcoholic cokehead (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/graphics/packageart/bush/bush_tsg.mov).
Even by your standards of Bush- and America-hating, that's a limply pathetic shot. You're suggesting, maybe, that recovery and recovering one's life isn't possible for people with certain types iof illness? Or that the President is still indulging his addiction? Do you have evidence? Would any rational person accept the evidence if you had it? Do you also believe people suffering from, say, depression should be barred from public office? Or that people people in wheelchairs shouldn't be in positions of power?
j4bberw0ck
10-Aug-06, 08:14
50 years? Try 5000.
Israel wasn't there for most of that time, Gleber2. Do try to keep up...... [lol] :roll:
j4bberw0ck
10-Aug-06, 08:25
where do you think Israel got their arsenal AND their nuclear weapons from????
Actually, they developed much of the technology themselves. Remember Mordecai Vanunu?
and secondly.. has Mad Mahmoud said that he wants to build nuclear weapons? He has stated they wish to pursue nuclear energy generation. The MEDIA pump it into the minds of everyone that they want to build nuclear weapons. And, why shouldn't they have them if they want them if everybody else has them anyways? Maybe they too would like a "deterrent"?
No, he hasn't said he wants to build nuclear weapons. In fact, he's said he doesn't want to. But if you believe that statement, why not believe the statement about removing Israel from the face of the planet?
Think about it another way. I've no doubt you (as did everyone else) fulminated about police incompetence when Thomas Hamilton - a man whose behaviour had "attracted the attention of police" was granted a gun licence, and in addition managed to acquire a couple of illegal guns as well. "Why / how was he allowed to do it?" was the cry, when he shot a classroom-full of young children in Dunblane. "How could anyone allow a nutter like that to arm himself?"
and btw... Mad Mahmoud is not the only person nor country nor occupied territory in the Middle East that would like to see Israel either quit occupying land that is not theirs & bombing folk and be happy with what they got or pack their bags altogether.
I know. But he's the only one who's made the specific threats he's made. The rest know that they'd bounce off Israel. It's why the Arab world wants Iran to go nuclear, and why Hezbollah is doing a rock on job of distracting the MEDIA from Iranian nuclear research. Hezbollah is Iran - again, even the most liberal political commentators agree that it's armed and funded and controlled by Iran.
Blazing Sporrans
10-Aug-06, 08:39
thought people might find this interesting if they haven't seen it already....
George Galloway on Sky News speaking about his views on the war going on between Hezbollah and Israel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=249JaIaubVw
I have long thought that George Galloway, despite his many faults, is an outstanding orator and to use his own words, he gave Anna Botting a "bloody good hiding" in that little verbal contretemps. He may have irritated some with his angry debating style but give the man credit, he is consistently passionate about a cause he has long supported and doesn't bend with the changing wind of public opinion. Regarding Anna Botting's performance, we are now well within the realms where journalists editorialise instead of reporting the news in a neutral manner. The BBC's political editor, Nick Robinson, is a classic example of one who tries to make news and influence public opinion instead of reporting it (should the former chairperson of the young Tories hold such a job? - that's another debate). Dear old Reggie Bosanquet won't just be turning over in his grave, he'll be revolving faster than Hurricane Katrina!
Even by your standards of Bush- and America-hating, that's a limply pathetic shot. You're suggesting, maybe, that recovery and recovering one's life isn't possible for people with certain types iof illness? Or that the President is still indulging his addiction? Do you have evidence? Would any rational person accept the evidence if you had it? Do you also believe people suffering from, say, depression should be barred from public office? Or that people people in wheelchairs shouldn't be in positions of power?
Oh yes he's still hitting the bottle.
Evidence? Now you start asking for evidence. Did you ask for evidence when Bush told us Iraq had WMD? No you believed it, a recent poll shows half the population of America still believes it and well over 100,000 Iraqi civillians died for their stupidity.
Now your spouting the same Bush propaganda about Iran and innocent Lebanese children are burning to death every day because of a population who would rather believe lies than truth.
No, he hasn't said he wants to build nuclear weapons. In fact, he's said he doesn't want to. But if you believe that statement, why not believe the statement about removing Israel from the face of the planet?
Because he has never made a statement about removing Israel off the face of the planet.
He made a statement about removing the Zionist regime from the pages of history.
Because he has never made a statement about removing Israel off the face of the planet.
He made a statement about removing the Zionist regime from the pages of history.
What is this then Fred, this is one of many similar sites on google, I chose this one at random
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9995386/site/newsweek/
j4bberw0ck
10-Aug-06, 11:02
Oh yes he's still hitting the bottle
:roll: Well, I suppose if you say so, it must be true.
The BBC's political editor, Nick Robinson, is a classic example of one who tries to make news and influence public opinion instead of reporting it (should the former chairperson of the young Tories hold such a job? - that's another debate).Agreed. But I think their economic editor, Evan Davis (http://news.bbc.co.uk/newswatch/ukfs/hi/newsid_3900000/newsid_3907200/3907249.stm), is worse. He waffles and presents pet theories as fact, and many of his interpretations and explanations are simply wrong. Like many (supposed) economists, he understands numbers and arithmetic, but he doesn't seem to understand the mathematics involved.
Israel wasn't there for most of that time, Gleber2. Do try to keep up...... [lol] :roll:
Your humour becomes condescendingly annoying. I'm sure that the straight thinking orgers knew exactly what I meant. Dating Genesis is difficult, but from the first settling of the Promised Land to the Diaspora there was an awful lot of people put to the sword by the Chosen Race when they required some-one elses territory. Now that they are back, they have continued their historical methods.
j4bberw0ck
10-Aug-06, 14:47
Your humour becomes condescendingly annoying
Then I apologise. I'll try to keep it under control.
from the first settling of the Promised Land to the Diaspora there was an awful lot of people put to the sword by the Chosen Race when they required some-one elses territory. Now that they are back, they have continued their historical methods.
And is it your position that only the Israelis have done this?
Actually, they developed much of the technology themselves. Remember Mordecai Vanunu?
No, he hasn't said he wants to build nuclear weapons. In fact, he's said he doesn't want to. But if you believe that statement, why not believe the statement about removing Israel from the face of the planet?
Think about it another way. I've no doubt you (as did everyone else) fulminated about police incompetence when Thomas Hamilton - a man whose behaviour had "attracted the attention of police" was granted a gun licence, and in addition managed to acquire a couple of illegal guns as well. "Why / how was he allowed to do it?" was the cry, when he shot a classroom-full of young children in Dunblane. "How could anyone allow a nutter like that to arm himself?"
I know. But he's the only one who's made the specific threats he's made. The rest know that they'd bounce off Israel. It's why the Arab world wants Iran to go nuclear, and why Hezbollah is doing a rock on job of distracting the MEDIA from Iranian nuclear research. Hezbollah is Iran - again, even the most liberal political commentators agree that it's armed and funded and controlled by Iran.
As I recall.. the dude from Dunblane was a mason. They weren't not going to give him a gun and even if he had more... it is very challenging to shoot two guns at one time.. no matter what you've seen on the telly. It still is incredibly easy to get a gun in this country legally and I'm sure lots of other nutters have them. I think you'll find statistically Scotland has 3 times more violent crime than America. Lot less guns here too. So, don't let them fool you into thinking guns cause more crimes.
Sorry.. I grew up in Michigan.. I think everyone has a right to form a militia. Hezbollah is a political party. There are charities in THIS country that give lots of money to extremist groups. And by your method.. if Hezbollah is Iran.. then Israel may as well be America.
.
And is it your position that only the Israelis have done this?
Certainly not, only an idiot would say so. However the mandate which the Jewish nation claims came directly from God makes them somewhat unique on the world stage. It would appear that the national ego which such a claim indicates feels that it has carte blanche to do what it wants and the deil tak the hindmost. I do not separate today's problems from the pages of history. The plight of the Canaanites and Amalekites was very similar to the plight of the Palestinians fifty years ago.
A mandate from God is a bit different from the greed and power seeking of, for example, the rampaging British Empire. Equally reprehensible however.
Blazing Sporrans
10-Aug-06, 16:06
Think about it another way. I've no doubt you (as did everyone else) fulminated about police incompetence when Thomas Hamilton - a man whose behaviour had "attracted the attention of police" was granted a gun licence, and in addition managed to acquire a couple of illegal guns as well. "Why / how was he allowed to do it?" was the cry, when he shot a classroom-full of young children in Dunblane. "How could anyone allow a nutter like that to arm himself?"
As I recall.. the dude from Dunblane was a mason. They weren't not going to give him a gun and even if he had more... it is very challenging to shoot two guns at one time.. no matter what you've seen on the telly. It still is incredibly easy to get a gun in this country legally and I'm sure lots of other nutters have them.
Guys, I'm straying off the thread here, however a couple of things have been said that need addressed. Firstly j4bberwock, four out of the eight scottish police forces investigated Thomas Hamilton for one thing or another and unfortunately none of them were in possession of sufficient evidence that the Procurator Fiscal Service or Crown Office would instigate criminal proceedings. He was a long time holder of a firearm certificate, which in those days lasted for three years and not five as they do today. However in those days, applications required a countersignatory from a professional person such as banker, doctor, lawyer, Justice of the Peace etc to declare that in their opinion that the applicant was a fit and proper person to hold a certificate. Police moves to restrict or revoke Hamilton's certificates were hampered by the LEGISLATION of the day. If the police refused his application, Hamilton was entitled to take it before the Sheriff Court, where the Chief Constable no less, would have to give EVIDENCE to establish beyond all doubt that the applicant was not a fit and proper person etc etc. If the Sheriff found against the Chief Constable, Hamilton would get his certificate - both he and the Police knew that. Now, thankfully, such a scenario could not exist due to improvements in the legislation following the tragedy of Dunblane. Being a mason had nothing to do with Thomas Hamilton getting a gun and if you believe otherwise sj, you may as well start ordering the Daily Sport to broaden your investigative journalistic experience.
The children of Dunblane were let down by the legal system, not the 'incompetence' of the local police.
Guys, I'm straying off the thread here, however a couple of things have been said that need addressed. Firstly j4bberwock, four out of the eight scottish police forces investigated Thomas Hamilton for one thing or another and unfortunately none of them were in possession of sufficient evidence that the Procurator Fiscal Service or Crown Office would instigate criminal proceedings. He was a long time holder of a firearm certificate, which in those days lasted for three years and not five as they do today. However in those days, applications required a countersignatory from a professional person such as banker, doctor, lawyer, Justice of the Peace etc to declare that in their opinion that the applicant was a fit and proper person to hold a certificate. Police moves to restrict or revoke Hamilton's certificates were hampered by the LEGISLATION of the day. If the police refused his application, Hamilton was entitled to take it before the Sheriff Court, where the Chief Constable no less, would have to give EVIDENCE to establish beyond all doubt that the applicant was not a fit and proper person etc etc. If the Sheriff found against the Chief Constable, Hamilton would get his certificate - both he and the Police knew that. Now, thankfully, such a scenario could not exist due to improvements in the legislation following the tragedy of Dunblane. Being a mason had nothing to do with Thomas Hamilton getting a gun and if you believe otherwise sj, you may as well start ordering the Daily Sport to broaden your investigative journalistic experience.
The children of Dunblane were let down by the legal system, not the 'incompetence' of the local police.
your a mason then?
Blazing Sporrans
10-Aug-06, 17:17
your a mason then?
Couldn't be further from the truth, yet why am I not surprised by the level of your retort??? [lol] [lol]
I was having a laugh silly.. sheesh!
Blazing Sporrans
10-Aug-06, 17:28
Sorry sj, if there was a joke there then it was lost in the delivery.... You don't work for the Post Office do you?
j4bberw0ck
10-Aug-06, 17:40
He was a long time holder of a firearm certificate, which in those days lasted for three years and not five as they do today. However in those days, applications required a countersignatory from a professional person such as banker, doctor, lawyer, Justice of the Peace etc to declare that in their opinion that the applicant was a fit and proper person to hold a certificate. Police moves to restrict or revoke Hamilton's certificates were hampered by the LEGISLATION of the day
Thanks, Sporrans. I recall that, indeed. I wasn't taking a pop at the police, though - just using the outburst ("how could that man get a FAC?") that followed to illustrate a point. The police were unable to revoke Hamilton's FAC, but of course the "civil rights" brigade sudenly seem to forget their high-flown principles in such emotional circumstances and demand that people be locked up or deprived of rights when often, there's due process to follow.
Blazing Sporrans
10-Aug-06, 17:45
I've got all the time in the world for anyone who can say 'sorry'. A hard word to say for most. I wasn't having a pop either, I just get annoyed when the police are continually castigated for one thing or another. I have very strong police links in my family - six members who are either serving or retired cops and they are never allowed to say much in their own defence.
Sorry sj, if there was a joke there then it was lost in the delivery.... You don't work for the Post Office do you?
actually I was gonna put your a mason and a cop then? I would have been close right?[lol] thanks for the explanation.;)
Blazing Sporrans
10-Aug-06, 17:55
actually I was gonna put your a mason and a cop then? I would have been close right?[lol] thanks for the explanation.;)
You'd be surprised how few cops are masons these days, given the reputation they've inherited.
What is this then Fred, this is one of many similar sites on google, I chose this one at random
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9995386/site/newsweek/
The words "face" and "planet" do not occur anywhere in that article.
What was said literally translates to "this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time", it's a quotation, of Ayatollah Khomeini.
The rest is just deliberate mistranslation and media hype.
Blazing Sporrans
10-Aug-06, 18:10
Does it not allude to the same end result?
j4bberw0ck
10-Aug-06, 18:25
it's a quotation, of Ayatollah Khomeini
Oh, that's all right then. I thought for a moment we might be talking about another radical nutter........ Phew! [lol]
j4bberw0ck
10-Aug-06, 21:48
Certainly not, only an idiot would say so. However the mandate which the Jewish nation claims came directly from God makes them somewhat unique on the world stage. It would appear that the national ego which such a claim indicates feels that it has carte blanche to do what it wants and the deil tak the hindmost.
All religions grant mandates of one form or another. All nations have at one time or another been involved in warfare - even the Swiss. Not many nations have been threatened publicly with extinction - at least not in contemporary terms.
I do not separate today's problems from the pages of history.
Then you should. The pages of history are just that. You cannot judge the historical actions of nations by contemporary standards, any more than you can condemn the <edit> historical</edit> actions of, say, people who have different religious views to your own and finding those actions outrageous, and judging them by your own standards. You might disapprove (and so remember and take action to help ensure things don't repeat themselves), having the luxury of being in 21st century Caithness, but you cannot judge and condemn matters which were settled for good or ill tens, hundreds or thousands of years ago. That's a little egotistical, don't you think? Or do you believe that German teenagers are as responsible as (some of their) grandfathers for the Holocaust?
Fred, I don't want to know the Holocaust is an invention of American propaganda, thanks.
A mandate from God is a bit different from the greed and power seeking of, for example, the rampaging British Empire. Equally reprehensible however.
Extraordinary statement, and I'm not sure which way you're pitching it. The British Empire was entirely logical and entirely correct given the beliefs and standards of the people of those days. Do you believe in mandates from God?
All religions grant mandates of one form or another. All nations have at one time or another been involved in warfare - even the Swiss. Not many nations have been threatened publicly with extinction - at least not in contemporary terms.
Then you should. The pages of history are just that. You cannot judge the historical actions of nations by contemporary standards, any more than you can condemn the actions of, say, people who have different religious views to your own. You might disapprove (and so remember and take action to help ensure things don't repeat themselves), having the luxury of being in 21st century Caithness, but you cannot judge and condemn matters which were settled for good or ill tens, hundreds or thousands of years ago. That's a little egotistical, don't you think? Or do you believe that German teenagers are as responsible as (some of their) grandfathers for the Holocaust?
Fred, I don't want to know the Holocaust is an invention of American propaganda, thanks.
Extraordinary statement, and I'm not sure which way you're pitching it. The British Empire was entirely logical and entirely correct given the beliefs and standards of the people of those days. Do you believe in mandates from God?
Egotism you say. Your posts reek of it. I don't believe in God, how can I believe in mandates from God. When the sins of the fathers are also the sins of their descendants then they will be judged with the same yardstick. The Ancient Jews were God's chosen people they reckon and were told who to kill and who to disposess. If an individual in this day and age were to murder another human because he was ordered to by a voice in his head, he would be locked up as insane.
The British Empire was completely wrong and I am saying that with the gift of hindsight. Fortunately we are not colonising these days although we are still helping a former colony to become the World's Police force. It is this
behaviour of races and countries today that interests me but I, like many others, study history for the lessons to be found therein.
It is very strange but communicating with you has shades of an earlier time on this Forum. Reminds me of the posts of another flippant, egotistical, boring pedant.:mad:
Does it not allude to the same end result?
It alludes to the world not recognising Israel as a state then giving the population of Palestine, all of palestine including the part now called Israel, Arab and Jew, self determination.
Seems like the sensible solution to me, Jews and Arabs got on quite well in Palestine before the Zionists got there, the Zionists are only a small portion of the worlds Jewish population, Zionism goes against Orthodox Judism, against the teachings of the Torah and most importantly against natural law. Any sensible person would agree that someone whos ancestors have worked a piece of land for hundreds of years has more claim over the land than some illegal immigrant from Russia with one grandparent Jewish waving an old book.
All religions grant mandates of one form or another. All nations have at one time or another been involved in warfare - even the Swiss. Not many nations have been threatened publicly with extinction - at least not in contemporary terms.
Israel is not a nation, it was never recognised by most Arab countries as a nation, as far as Iran is concerned it does not and never has existed.
How can they threaten with extinction something they don't believe exists?
Jews and Arabs got on quite well in Palestine before the Zionists got there, the Zionists are only a small portion of the worlds Jewish population, Zionism goes against Orthodox Judism, against the teachings of the Torah and most importantly against natural law. Any sensible person would agree that someone whos ancestors have worked a piece of land for hundreds of years has more claim over the land than some illegal immigrant from Russia with one grandparent Jewish waving an old book.
Not often we see eye to eye Fred but right on with this one.
pultneytooner
10-Aug-06, 22:42
It alludes to the world not recognising Israel as a state then giving the population of Palestine, all of palestine including the part now called Israel, Arab and Jew, self determination.
Seems like the sensible solution to me, Jews and Arabs got on quite well in Palestine before the Zionists got there, the Zionists are only a small portion of the worlds Jewish population, Zionism goes against Orthodox Judism, against the teachings of the Torah and most importantly against natural law. Any sensible person would agree that someone whos ancestors have worked a piece of land for hundreds of years has more claim over the land than some illegal immigrant from Russia with one grandparent Jewish waving an old book.
And the american government is full of them, zionists.
It alludes to the world not recognising Israel as a state then giving the population of Palestine, all of palestine including the part now called Israel, Arab and Jew, self determination.
Seems like the sensible solution to me, Jews and Arabs got on quite well in Palestine before the Zionists got there, the Zionists are only a small portion of the worlds Jewish population, Zionism goes against Orthodox Judism, against the teachings of the Torah and most importantly against natural law. Any sensible person would agree that someone whos ancestors have worked a piece of land for hundreds of years has more claim over the land than some illegal immigrant from Russia with one grandparent Jewish waving an old book.
certainly I would suppose you could say pretty much about the same thing about this country and it's land laws and inheritance rights over land that wasn't theirs anyways.. nobody seems to be that angry about it here though.
j4bberw0ck
10-Aug-06, 22:52
Egotism you say. Your posts reek of it. I don't believe in God, how can I believe in mandates from God.
Well, pardon the heck out of me, I'm sure. Amongst those gifts I do have, telepathy doesn't figure large.
The British Empire was completely wrong and I am saying that with the gift of hindsight. Fortunately we are not colonising these days although we are still helping a former colony to become the World's Police force.
Actually, I thought we kinda tucked in behind them rather nicely. They don't need us any more, but we do need them. The British Empire was wrong only by your hindsight and the featherbedding of being in the 21st century. By the standards of 19th century Britain, it was entirely, wholly and inevitably correct. I notice incidentally you failed to answer my question about whether (because of your beliefs about historcal events) you felt German teenagers are as personally responible as (some of) their grandfathers for the Holocaust.
It is very strange but communicating with you has shades of an earlier time on this Forum. Reminds me of the posts of another flippant, egotistical, boring pedant.:mad:
Why, how kind of you to say such things (again)! Shortly, I'll start to feel all embarrassed...... [lol] . Or maybe not.
pultneytooner
10-Aug-06, 22:57
Well, pardon the heck out of me, I'm sure. Amongst those gifts I do have, telepathy doesn't figure large.
Actually, I thought we kinda tucked in behind them rather nicely. They don't need us any more, but we do need them.
Why exactly do we need them?
j4bberw0ck
10-Aug-06, 23:01
You answer my question about German teenagers (with reasons) and I'll answer yours about needing the USA........... I asked mine twice with no response, and you know us pedants..............
pultneytooner
10-Aug-06, 23:05
You answer my question about German teenagers (with reasons) and I'll answer yours about needing the USA........... I asked mine twice with no response, and you know us pedants..............
German teenagers, no, I don't believe the sins of the father should be visited on the child so now answer my question.
oldmarine
10-Aug-06, 23:10
I'm glad that America is the superpower of the day. Imagine if it was some banana republic or some totalitarian government who were pulling the strings? We very easily forget that our own freedom and destiny is tied into the freedom America defends when its own morals are brought under scrutiny.
Whether you guys want to accept it or not, there is a war on terror being waged out there and we, the British, are at the forefront of that battle to retain the freedom generations of our fathers fought for. We may not like the means being used to wage the war, but how else do you negotiate with people who wage war on innocent men and women, whether in buildings in New York or underground trains in London?
I detect anti semitism at the heart of the complaints on here. The Israelis are fighting against an enemy who would hve preferred non of them survived the Nazi execution camps.
The truth is, non of the nations either condemning or condoning the present actions, have any room for criticism if history were to be the hallmark of right and wrong.
I wonder if these so called freedom fighters killing innocent Jewish women and children would continue to give you and me the freedom we have become used to, were they the ones wielding the power now enjoyed by the Americans?
Take a good look at a map of Israel. You will see that they are in a small area surrounded by a large area completely dominated by hostile Muslim countries that does not want Israel to exist. It's just a matter of time until the Muslims will control the world (as they did from 700 AD until just prior to WWI). England and the USA will not be able to stop them because they do not have the intestinal fortitude to stop the Muslim nations from advancing. We all will have to adjust to the idea of being converted to Muslims or being eliminated if we don't convert. It will be too late to do anything then.
I reminisce back to the days of WWII when we had to fight the Axis powers to prevent them from dominating the world. We now face a new enemy whether we like it or not. We no longer have the leaders or armies to stop this madness that we see going on now. Many on this forum appear to symphathize with this new threat. I am happy that most of you were not yet born or it would have been a different story back in the 1940's when we all had to come together for self-defence.
You answer my question about German teenagers (with reasons) and I'll answer yours about needing the USA........... I asked mine twice with no response, and you know us pedants..............
It would be somewhat stupid to blame German teenagers for the sins of their grandfathers and therefore I don't because German teenagers no longer commit genocide. If they were to start gassing Jews and Gypsys etc. then I might change my outlook.
As far as your last post to me is concerned, when, in the past did I call you an egotistical boring pedant. You said I called you that again. Are my suspicions right about a previous life in the Org.
pultneytooner
10-Aug-06, 23:19
Take a good look at a map of Israel. You will see that they are in a small area surrounded by a large area completely dominated by hostile Muslim countries that does not want Israel to exist. It's just a matter of time until the Muslims will control the world (as they did from 700 AD until just prior to WWI). England and the USA will not be able to stop them because they do not have the intestinal fortitude to stop the Muslim nations from advancing. We all will have to adjust to the idea of being converted to Muslims or being eliminated if we don't convert. It will be too late to do anything then.
I reminisce back to the days of WWII when we had to fight the Axis powers to prevent them from dominating the world. We now face a new enemy whether we like it or not. We no longer have the leaders or armies to stop this madness that we see going on now. Many on this forum appear to symphathize with this new threat. I am happy that most of you were not yet born or it would have been a different story back in the 1940's when we all had to come together for self-defence.
If we did happen to end up with another world war we would all come together as one, this is not a phenomenom confined to your day.
To call anyone a sympathiser is rubbish, all we want is peace and we can see the good and the bad, we are not stupid.
Fred, I don't want to know the Holocaust is an invention of American propaganda, thanks.
There is no doubt it happened, the only question is why?
At the Evian Conference (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evian_Conference) in 1938 the Jewish Agency ignored Hitlers offer to let Jews leave Germany, for a price.
In 1941 and in 1942 Hitler again offered to let Jews leave Germany, for a price, provided they went to America or British colonies and not to Palestine. Zionist leaders in Switzerland and Turkey refused the offer, they would only accept Palestine as a destination for Jewish deportees.
In 1944 the same offer was made for the Jews in Hungary, the same Zionist leaders refused again.
On December 17, 1942 the British Parliament proposed the evacuation of 500,000 Jews from Europe to British colonies, a Zionist spokesman announced that they would oppose the motion because the Jews wern't going to Palestine.
On Feb. 16, 1943 Rumania offered to let 70,000 Jewish refugees leave for $50 each.
"when they asked me, couldn't you give money out of the United Jewish Appeal funds for the rescue of Jews in Europe, I said NO! and I say again, NO!...one should resist this wave which pushes the Zionist activities to secondary importance."
Yitzhak Greebaum, Chairman of the Rescue Committee of the Jewish Agency
There is no doubt it happened, the only question is why?
I'm not an expert on the political manouvering behind the attempt to exterminate the Jewish race by the Nazis, but I know why it happened.
It happened because at a certain time in history, the racism that set the Jews apart from other races since the beginning of time was brought to a head by a bunch of monsters who preyed on something that is inherent in all human beings, given the right circumstances.
For Fred to now try and change the pages of history once again. No, that's wrong. For Fred to now try and change our perception of the pages of history is wrong, and in some countries would be against the law.
I believe Fred, sjwahwah and Gleber are showing signs of anti semitism. Now, whether they are anti semetic or not doesnt really matter. What matters is that I have now planted the idea in peoples heads and you can no longer read their posts without taking my words into consideration. That's what makes conspiracy theories so powerful. Doubt!
I agree with j4bberw0ck. A knowledge of history is no bad thing but we have to try and be aware that history has no right to dictate events in the present time. Thats where all the present day crap comes from. We will never move on if we revert to the morals of our fathers, no matter how much some of you may have been attached to them. Your fathers that is.
j4bberw0ck
11-Aug-06, 08:15
gleber2:
I asked about German teenagers because you seem determined to take responsibility for poor decisions made years ago. It's all very well for you and fred to hide behind "Iran has never recognised Israel so it doesn't exist" but the fact is that Israel DOES exist, it can't suddenly unexist and you certainly can't wind the clock back to 1947 when the legal process which created Israel was legal and proper by the laws which governed the people who took the decisions and who saw themselves as having the right to make those decisions. The attitude shown by you, Fred, sjwahwah and others, and in addition the whole of the Arab world, is the grown-up's version of a pouting child refusing to cooperate when refused a sweetie. So pout away, gleber2, and enjoy your role paying homage to King Canute.
As for your suspicion that I'm some sort of bete noire from your past, if you have concerns then please take it up with the Forum administrators who will have my details and will doubtless have the Data Protection Act and their Terms and Conditions firmly in mind when answering.
Oldmarine:
I agree with you that ultimately (the way things are going) our children, or their children, will be lining up to be issued with a Koran. I profoundly object to creeping Islamisation. We're all fighting a war; it's just happening on a slower but longer timescale than most wars.
I reminisce back to the days of WWII when we had to fight the Axis powers to prevent them from dominating the world. We now face a new enemy whether we like it or not. We no longer have the leaders or armies to stop this madness that we see going on now. Many on this forum appear to symphathize with this new threat. I am happy that most of you were not yet born or it would have been a different story back in the 1940's when we all had to come together for self-defence.
I am a "War baby" circa 1940, and oldmarine I am in full agreement with you on this, I am begining to think that we have a few anti Israeli's on these threads, our Fathers and Uncles all fought the Axis machine in those days and we are the better for it, now the threat is from the Islamic factions, we have the defenders of Islam berating Israel for defending its self. I have yet to see Fred condem Hezbulla in any of these threads with the venom he uses to condem the USA or the UK governments.
For Fred to now try and change the pages of history once again. No, that's wrong. For Fred to now try and change our perception of the pages of history is wrong, and in some countries would be against the law.
Your perception of history is wrong. The Germans killed the Jews therefore all Germans were evil and all Jews were good, that is racist thinking, that isn't how it happened.
Most Germans were good people, a small number of Germans who saw themselves as better than the rest took power, it was they who killed the Jews. All Jews were not good, there was a small group who decided they were better than the rest declared themselves leaders of the Children of Israel and they were every bit as evil as Hitler and every bit as responsible for the holocaust.
Antisematism in prewar Germany was part of the Zionist plan, they had a new country they wanted to populate.
"I did not and do not even today, for understandable reasons, wish to reveal that from October 1928 the two largest regular contributors to the Nazi Party were the general managers of two of the largest Berlin banks, both of Jewish faith, and one of them the leader of Zionism in Germany."
Heinrich Brüning Chancellor of Germany
So if we use this as an analogy Fred, are you saying that there are a small group of Muslims, who have declared themselves as the voice of Islam who are every bit as evil as the powers that be, and are as responsible as them for the current state of affairs?
gleber2:
I asked about German teenagers because you seem determined to take responsibility for poor decisions made years ago. It's all very well for you and fred to hide behind "Iran has never recognised Israel so it doesn't exist" but the fact is that Israel DOES exist, it can't suddenly unexist and you certainly can't wind the clock back to 1947 when the legal process which created Israel was legal and proper by the laws which governed the people who took the decisions and who saw themselves as having the right to make those decisions. The attitude shown by you, Fred, sjwahwah and others, and in addition the whole of the Arab world, is the grown-up's version of a pouting child refusing to cooperate when refused a sweetie. So pout away, gleber2, and enjoy your role paying homage to King Canute.
As for your suspicion that I'm some sort of bete noire from your past, if you have concerns then please take it up with the Forum administrators who will have my details and will doubtless have the Data Protection Act and their Terms and Conditions firmly in mind when answering.
.
A few points to clarify. Why should I take responsibility for anything that has happened anywhere in a historical past? The fact is that I don't. Where, may I ask, have I said that Iran has never recognised Israel so it doesn't exist and when have I ever hid behind that statement. The fact is that I haven't and don't. Even a child can see that no-one can turn the clock back and undo the past but if a decision made in the past creates severe problems in the present then steps should be made to ensure that the same mistakes are not made in the future. We, as a race, do not seem to want to admit the mistakes of the past. The decisions made in the past were made by the victors in a world war and were made for their own convenience to satisfy their own agendas for whatever reason.
I find the situation in the Middle East appalling and I apply my disgust to both sides of the conflict. I am anti-violence in any form and we, as a civilised progressive society should be able to find peaceful means to settle the conflict without the scenario that is developing. As far as your "pouting child analagy" is concerned, you are spouting nonsense, in my case at least, and I find your attitude more than a bit childish. I look at the overall picture of history and present as being one unit which cannot be separated. We are supposed to learn from our mistakes, are we not, and try to avoid making the same ones in the present. On a lighter note, Canute was a Scandinavian English king, whyever would I pay him homage.
As far as the second part of your deeply philosophic post is concerned, did I mention "bete noire". That would indicate fear and concern of which I have none. The person I refer to from the past was an egotistical, intellectual bully whose posting style and attitude was very similar to yours and equally annoying. Your replies on the subject would appear to indicate that you have posted before under a different disguise. So what. I do not really care if you are he/she or not. I certainly wouldn't bother Godmin with my suspicions because whether you are or not is of no real consequence to me or any one else.
why is fred suspended????????
why is fred suspended????????
...::Conspiracy Theorists Reply Below::...
j4bberw0ck
11-Aug-06, 13:08
Where, may I ask, have I said that Iran has never recognised Israel so it doesn't exist and when have I ever hid behind that statement. The fact is that I haven't and don't.
True. Fred did. But there seemed to me to be a concensus on this point between him, you and others.
Even a child can see that no-one can turn the clock back and undo the past but if a decision made in the past creates severe problems in the present then steps should be made to ensure that the same mistakes are not made in the future.
Good. Something we can agree on. The point I was making is that the solution to the problem of Israel is not to "un-make" Israel. The solution is to get the Arab governments of the region to live up to their responsibilities and resettle the so-called "refugees" who've been effectively imprisoned for 60 years by their own governments in the name of propaganda. The job of the UN (or at least some components of it) is to package the proposition so the Arabs can buy in without loss of face.
We, as a race, do not seem to want to admit the mistakes of the past. The decisions made in the past were made by the victors in a world war and were made for their own convenience to satisfy their own agendas for whatever reason.
Of course. That's the nature of realpolitik.
I find the situation in the Middle East appalling and I apply my disgust to both sides of the conflict. I am anti-violence in any form and we, as a civilised progressive society should be able to find peaceful means to settle the conflict without the scenario that is developing
Something else we can agree on. The problem is that the other side don't seem to be interested in a peaceful resolution. Hezbollah, at the behest of Iran, started this by deliberately taking actions which Israel had said would attract strong reprisal. Syria waits in the wings - and Syria knows a thing or two about oppressing people, too - think Hama in 1982 and Lebanon in the 90's.
On a lighter note, Canute was a Scandinavian English king, whyever would I pay him homage.
Purely by imitation. He stood there trying to wish the tides back, you stand there trying to wish the advancing tides of radical Islam back.
As far as the second part of your deeply philosophic post is concerned, did I mention "bete noire". That would indicate fear and concern of which I have none. The person I refer to from the past was an egotistical, intellectual bully whose posting style and attitude was very similar to yours and equally annoying.
:lol: You mean they didn't agree with you? For the record, let me assure you I have never registered on this board under any other name than the one I bear now, and hadn't contributed to it in any way, shape or form before July 2006.
.
.
I believe Fred, sjwahwah and Gleber are showing signs of anti semitism. Now, whether they are anti semetic or not doesnt really matter. What matters is that I have now planted the idea in peoples heads and you can no longer read their posts without taking my words into consideration. That's what makes conspiracy theories so powerful. Doubt!
I agree with j4bberw0ck. A knowledge of history is no bad thing but we have to try and be aware that history has no right to dictate events in the present time. Thats where all the present day crap comes from. We will never move on if we revert to the morals of our fathers, no matter how much some of you may have been attached to them. Your fathers that is.
I dislike American politics and the role they have chosen to take in the world today. I do not dislike modern America because of the criminal way they treated the Amerinds in the past. I dislike the present attitude and actions of the State of Israel, not for what they did in the past, but because of the way they conduct themselves in the present. Germany has many skeletons in their closet but I have no real dislike for Germans because they are not doing anything today to create anti feelings towards them. If those statements mean that I am anti America and anti semitic then so be it. You, Gleeber, and unnamed others can interpret my posts in any way that suits your ideas and accuse me of all sorts of sins but that does not make your ideas right. I am an individual who has the same right to draw his own conclusions from the past and the present and I do not like what Israel is doing right now, I do not like what America and Britain are doing right now, I do not like the garbage that is being spouted by Iran's leaders, I do not like the situation in North Korea, I do not like what China has done to Tibet and their relationship with Formosa, I hate the situation created in India by the British creation of Pakistan and I have never been too happy with the IRA actions of the last 50 years or so. I, if anything, am a misanthrop not a racist. I dislike evil irrespective of the colour, race and creed of the perpetrator.
The morals of our fathers should be, by now, superceded by enlightenment and sense, not continued into the present. We continue to make the same mistakes as we pride ourselves in our cleverness today. We have more violence and death and destruction here and now than we have ever experienced in all our history. Even now we are lining up, on this forum, into two camps, one for and one against the present situation world wide. This dichotomy is what makes wars. If certain posters and I were to meet up in a bar and started to spout our views it would end up in argument and possibly violence. As individuals and on a racial level, none of us have grown up enough to see how ridiculous we all are in the face of today's reality. That includes you, my old friend Gleeber.
j4bberw0ck
11-Aug-06, 13:29
...::Conspiracy Theorists Reply Below::...
I did hear a rumour that there was a flurry of phone calls between London, Barbados and Washington a few minutes beforehand, just after a mobile phone call from the head of the World Zionist Organisation..... and that a flight of Black Helicopters was sighted streaking at unbelievable speeds over the wavetops of the Pentland Firth......
True. Fred did. But there seemed to me to be a concensus on this point between him, you and others.
Good. Something we can agree on. The point I was making is that the solution to the problem of Israel is not to "un-make" Israel. The solution is to get the Arab governments of the region to live up to their responsibilities and resettle the so-called "refugees" who've been effectively imprisoned for 60 years by their own governments in the name of propaganda. The job of the UN (or at least some components of it) is to package the proposition so the Arabs can buy in without loss of face.
Purely by imitation. He stood there trying to wish the tides back, you stand there trying to wish the advancing tides of radical Islam back.
:lol: You mean they didn't agree with you? .
Not true. No consensus.
I have no wish to unmake Israel. The jews have as much right to their own homeland as any other race but they seem to have no concern for those whom they removed to make way for their new/old country. Tis the dispossesed who have my sympathy and I am appalled at the continued maltreatment of the Palestinians whatever the reason.
If you had been a previous poster you would know that, in a few previous threads four or five months ago, I got a lot of flack for taking a realistic view of the Muslim threat. I think that the Muslim religion, per se, is the biggest single threat to the status quo of our Judeo/ Christian civilisation and should be resisted in any way possible, not for commercial or political reasons, but to defend our entire way of life.
No, not the disagreement but the manner of the disagreement and the condescending, holier than thou attitude of the poster in question. I take your word that you are not he.
j4bberw0ck
11-Aug-06, 13:39
If certain posters and I were to meet up in a bar and started to spout our views it would end up in argument and possibly violence.
Did I make your list of "certain posters"? Or do I flatter myself? :lol: Gleber2, if I met you in a bar I'd be the first to buy you a drink. It's the medium of communication that leads to, er, excitement - no body language, facial expression, tone of voice and other giveaways. And the impersonal nature of it.
Face to face, I suspect we'd all be grown up enough to live and let live. Might even have a laugh, at that :eek:
Don't know what fred did or said to get canned, but maybe it's all getting a bit too heated. I'm going to ease back a little on this and related threads, I think, but I've enjoyed the craic, and even the insults!
pultneytooner
11-Aug-06, 13:40
Peace in the middle east means no longer teaching the children to hate. That may take a while.
Blazing Sporrans
11-Aug-06, 13:41
certainly I would suppose you could say pretty much about the same thing about this country and it's land laws and inheritance rights over land that wasn't theirs anyways.. nobody seems to be that angry about it here though.
Hey sj, a view we have in common, who would have thunk it? :cool: :cool:
Did I make your list of "certain posters"? Or do I flatter myself? :lol: Gleber2, if I met you in a bar I'd be the first to buy you a drink. It's the medium of communication that leads to, er, excitement - no body language, facial expression, tone of voice and other giveaways. And the impersonal nature of it.
Face to face, I suspect we'd all be grown up enough to live and let live. Might even have a laugh, at that :eek:
Don't know what fred did or said to get canned, but maybe it's all getting a bit too heated. I'm going to ease back a little on this and related threads, I think, but I've enjoyed the craic, and even the insults!
If you would be on my list of certain posters it would be by your choice, not mine. You would not buy me a drink as I don't use dangerous drugs LOL.
Yes it is the medium of communication that leads to nastiness. Most posters would not adopt their Forum attitudes if in the flesh. Easy to be obnoxiously annonymous.
Insults, insults, I never insulted you. I just stated facts.
Love and Peace.
Peace in the middle east means no longer teaching the children to hate. That may take a while.
Your latest avatar is a dancing Shiva. Why?
pultneytooner
11-Aug-06, 13:51
Your latest avatar is a dancing Shiva. Why?
Thought it was apropriate given the state of the world.
Thought it was apropriate given the state of the world.
Never mind Vishnu will recreate it all when it's gone. The final destroyer has never yet appeared and he is one after Vishnu. Maybe this time.
Blazing Sporrans
11-Aug-06, 14:20
You would not buy me a drink as I don't use dangerous drugs LOL.
He could buy you a drink Gleber, same way as he could buy me one - mine's a diet Irn Bru j4bber.... :Razz :Razz
j4bberw0ck
11-Aug-06, 14:23
You would not buy me a drink as I don't use dangerous drugs LOL.
OK, then, the Milky Bars on on me......... :lol:
He could buy you a drink Gleber, same way as he could buy me one - mine's a diet Irn Bru j4bber.... :Razz :Razz
Ok, pedant, point taken. Is j4bbr male then, I thought otherwise.
J4bbr, I am a vegan and don't use milk either. Try again.
Blazing Sporrans
11-Aug-06, 14:48
Ok, pedant, point taken. Is j4bbr male then, I thought otherwise.
Honestly don't know - over to you j4bber... or is it a mystery? :confused
j4bberw0ck
11-Aug-06, 16:19
Is j4bbr male then, I thought otherwise.
Awwww Gleber........ harbouring fantasies, were we? :lol:
J4bbr, I am a vegan and don't use milk either. Try again.
Ah, now, let me see.......... <rummages around in shopping bag> I have here a cabbage, certified to have died a natural death before being picked. It's a bit brown and slimy in places, but I could liquidise it for you if you like? :lol:
j4bberw0ck
11-Aug-06, 16:22
Honestly don't know - over to you j4bber... or is it a mystery? :confused
Definitely male, and definitely comfortable with it :lol: . No mystery!
Awwww Gleber........ harbouring fantasies, were we? :lol:
Ah, now, let me see.......... <rummages around in shopping bag> I have here a cabbage, certified to have died a natural death before being picked. It's a bit brown and slimy in places, but I could liquidise it for you if you like?
How do you know my sexual proclivities? You're right but it's never advisable to jump to hasty conclusions Dear.
Not into cabbage juice but I'll share a coke with you.
Now that you've taken your boxing gloves of, you seem like not a bad geezer.:lol:
Ok, pedant, point taken. Is j4bbr male then, I thought otherwise.
J4bbr, I am a vegan and don't use milk either. Try again.
Gleber2 is partial to a good well aged Malt allegedly [lol]
Gleber2 is partial to a good well aged Malt allegedly [lol]
It makes org get togethers bearable.:lol:
j4bberw0ck
12-Aug-06, 01:31
Aaaaaaah. That's better........ (http://www.highlandpark.co.uk/index.html)
:lol:
I shall be there on Sunday showing some bike-based tourists round. Just a small snifter, perhaps. By bike-based, I mean of course bike-based (http://www.bmw-motorrad.co.uk/gb/en/index.html)
Excellent! Hoping for reasonable weather...........
Watch for the cats in the malting rooms ;)
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