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John Little
07-Oct-10, 14:35
Ok – I’m puzzled. I used to live in Thurso many years ago.

When I lived in Thurso just about everyone we knew worked at Dounreay. There were techie guys all over the place – dab hands at power stations, radiation, electricity, Domes, Dustbins etc and it must have been one of the generating/ nuclear savvy places on the face of the earth.

So they decide to demolish the Dounreay Dome and I think to myself – wow! Bet the locals get worked up about that….

Bet all the retired Atomicers get up in arms and get up a petition etc etc etc.

You know the sort of stuff.

All those people out there who know stuff, who know the place inside out; who know their way round the sort of science Rheghead’s talking about on the petition thread. Experts in their fields…..

And I think – ok so my Dad worked in the dome – but I didn’t and I don’t live there now. In fact if I started a petition and kicked off about it then it would be a bit of a cheek – but I know someone will do it……..

But nobody did – so I did. My sense of heritage won’t let me do owt else.


But where are all the retired Atomicers?

Do they know something I don’t?

Where are the scientists, mathematicians, statisticians, radioactivity buffs…..

Don’t they ‘do’ the Org?

Have they all left? Don’t care? Can’t be bothered?
Convinced the Dome must go?

The crackling energy that was the atomic estates- all gone?


Then sic transit Gloria mundi indeed!

rich
07-Oct-10, 15:17
Here's an idea.

Let's get in touch with the Royal Scottish Museum.
I'm sure we could sell them on an oral history of the Dounereay experiment with a lot of emphasis on Thurso and the huge success it was for one and all.

We could even get some Murcle Yanks to contribute (they used to have a fine web site)
And let's face it if the administation of the ORG favours the idea - as I suspect they do - then with their resources we could become a major force in any decisions to be made.
What we need to do is :

Get started How the decision was made to site the reractor at Dounereay, the role of Donald Carmichael (didn't he leave memoirs?) and the experience of the first Atomics.
If we are looking for a model, one place to start might be with the Old Thurso pictures which resulted in some marvellous archival material.
So come on folks, let's put the collective memory to work....

cazmanian_minx
07-Oct-10, 18:32
Of OH's dad's team, one of the ones involved in getting the thing working, all are dead of stomach and throat cancers, bar one - tells its own story really :(

John Little
07-Oct-10, 18:37
Of OH's dad's team, one of the ones involved in getting the thing working, all are dead of stomach and throat cancers, bar one - tells its own story really :(

Not really. My Dad did not die of cancer and he was in that dome 14 hours a day, in it when they started the reactor, in it when they went critical, and on call to deal with instrument problems in it.

Scunner
07-Oct-10, 18:59
Of OH's dad's team, one of the ones involved in getting the thing working, all are dead of stomach and throat cancers, bar one - tells its own story really :(

and a lot of others who never worked at Dounreay have had cancer and died. I never worked at Dounreay, but have had cancer twice, and still very much alive

Rheghead
07-Oct-10, 19:12
and a lot of others who never worked at Dounreay have had cancer and died, including myself

Indeed, you don't need to work there.


Leukaemia and non-Hodgkin's lymphoma: incidence in children and young adults resident in the Dounreay area of Caithness, Scotland in 1968-91.CONCLUSION--The observation of an excess of borderline statistical significance in 1985-91 following the substantial excess incidence which occurred in the early 1980s suggests that the incidence of leukaemia and non-Hodgkin's lymphoma in this area should continue to be a matter of concern.

http://jech.bmj.com/content/48/3/232.abstract

captain chaos
07-Oct-10, 19:17
When I worked at Sellafield there was a health survey done comparing the cancer rate of workers and previous workers at Sellafield to that of the general population.

Turns out you were healthier working at Sellafield that the population of Cumbria. And no it was not a survey by the Nuclear industry it was done by an University trying to tie cancer to sellafield.

John Little
07-Oct-10, 19:20
Hm - correlation?...................

Danger of radon gas

Caithness has some of the highest levels of radon gas in the UK and Dounreay supporter and councillor Falconer Waters recently told Caithness District Council that it was the biggest health risk in the area - much more than any health threat from Dounreay. Councillors were discussing financial aid to a local householder wanting to spent GBP6,000 to remove the radioactive gas from their property. However the council cannot legally assist the resident - although some government funding is available. Mr Waters said in the Lybster area of the county there was an increased leukaemia rate yet a number of people in the area had failed to take part in a radon survey.


http://www.n-base.org.uk/public/briefing/90_99/brief80.htm

QED perhaps?

captain chaos
07-Oct-10, 19:25
Quote:
Leukaemia and non-Hodgkin's lymphoma: incidence in children and young adults resident in the Dounreay area of Caithness, Scotland in 1968-91.CONCLUSION--The observation of an excess of borderline statistical significance in 1985-91 following the substantial excess incidence which occurred in the early 1980s suggests that the incidence of leukaemia and non-Hodgkin's lymphoma in this area should continue to be a matter of concern.


Yep that was the thought way back then when the same was disproved at Sellafield and the modern hypothesis is that it is to do with influx of people to an area as there were similar clusters not only around nuclear plants, but were found around most large industrial complexes where an influx of workers had come to the area.

rich
07-Oct-10, 19:25
Rates of cancer may have increased in the population of Caithness when the dome was being constructed.

That was to be expected, according to a wide-ranging article in the British Medical Journal back in the '70s.

Cancer is what happens when a settled population, people who can trace their genotype within the family, enounter an invading army of hitherto unknown infections. The long time occupants of Caithness - MacKays, Sinclairs, Mowats et. were uniquely vulnerable because their immune systems were less experienced defensively. Some groups in Caithness hadn'd moved very far since the days of Sweyn the Viking!

Suddenly there was a population boom, made up of employees of the Atomic Energy Commission who tended to be very far-ranging in their jobs and occupations and were therefore well shielded from auto immune diseases like cancer.
The health profile of Caithness was altered irreveocably.

How do we know this is true? The same team that studied the epidemiology of nuclear power stations aso studied cancer rates in rural villages in the Cotswolds. The introducion of agricultural industry at places like Banbury (general foods?) showed a cancer spike similar to that in Caithness and Sellafield in the north west of England.

So the rule is, the natives have a higher incidence of disease. St. Kilda's is the classic example!

I do hope we wont hear any more about nuclear power and cancer...at least in a Caithness context.

Rheghead
07-Oct-10, 19:43
So the detective takes two posts of the 'quick to defend Dounreay persuasion' and sees that their stories don't tally up, one blames it on the radon and the other says it is the offcomers.

Hmmm...:roll:

Serenity
07-Oct-10, 19:54
Of OH's dad's team, one of the ones involved in getting the thing working, all are dead of stomach and throat cancers, bar one - tells its own story really :(

All I am saying is correlation does not imply causation.

captain chaos
07-Oct-10, 19:57
Obviously your maths is slightly out as its 2 for incomers and one for Radon Total 3 and the "its all Dounreays fault" try to rubish it count eh let me see its 1

Rheghead
07-Oct-10, 20:01
All I am saying is correlation does not imply causation.

I quite agree that correlation doesn't always imply causation but if you are going to take that stance then your task to imply that there is no connection is more difficult.

You have to prove some other agent is at work that causes these incidents and secondly why it can't be the radiation to which they were exposed that caused the cancers.

bekisman
07-Oct-10, 20:12
My younger brother died at 6 months from Leukaemia and my elder brother died at 65 also from Leukaemia, my father at 80 died of lung and stomach cancer all in Cornwall; no nuclear research there, but radon?

'Possible explanations for the recently reported increased incidence of childhood leukaemia around Dounreay were examined in the light of changes in the national incidence of leukaemia that occurred during the period of exposure to fallout from international testing of nuclear weapons in the atmosphere. It was concluded that the increase could not be accounted for by an underestimate of the risk of leukaemia per unit dose of radiation at low doses and low dose rates, nor by an underestimate of the relative biological efficiency of high as compared with low linear energy transfer radiation. One possible explanation was underestimation of doses to the red bone marrow due to the discharges at Dounreay relative to the dose from fallout, though investigation of ways in which this might have occurred did not suggest anything definite. Other possible explanations included a misconception of the site of origin of childhood leukaemia, outbreaks of an infectious disease, and exposure to some other, unidentified environmental agent. These findings weigh heavily against the hypothesis that the recent increase in childhood leukaemia near Dounreay might be accounted for by radioactive discharges from nuclear plants, unless the doses to the stem cells from which childhood leukaemia originates have been grossly underestimated.'

http://ukpmc.ac.uk/articles/PMC1245645;jsessionid=5B4DE7C51E179CC3EAEE4A65D359 BD6B.jvm1 (http://ukpmc.ac.uk/articles/PMC1245645;jsessionid=5B4DE7C51E179CC3EAEE4A65D359 BD6B.jvm1)

rich
07-Oct-10, 20:12
The suggestion is that there may be an infectious component to some cancers.
One can't rule that out.
But the real take-home message is that Caithness is nothing out of the ordinary when it comes to cancers.
Now can we get back to the dome?

Rheghead
07-Oct-10, 20:29
How do we know this is true? The same team that studied the epidemiology of nuclear power stations aso studied cancer rates in rural villages in the Cotswolds. The introducion of agricultural industry at places like Banbury (general foods?) showed a cancer spike similar to that in Caithness and Sellafield in the north west of England.

Just a thought, is that the same Cotswolds that is near the Oldbury nuclear power station where no doubt the workers would commute from?

John Little
07-Oct-10, 20:33
LOL- come on guys - this is thread drift. If you want an argument about Radon and nuclear radiation then do so by all means - but since nobody has ever proved a link it seems rather superfluous to my question.

If they are not all dead, which I doubt, where are all the old cream of the nuclear industry who I thought would be marching in serried ranks down Traill Street at the mere thought of Dome demolition?

bagpuss
07-Oct-10, 21:32
Dundee University have a team who are making a film about the decomissioning of Dounreay- and the team come up to film another segment every other month.

Lots of former Dounreay personnel have moved out of Caithness- soon it will be as if it never happened......................

John Little
07-Oct-10, 21:51
Thankyou. I shall try to find them and contact them....

bagpuss
07-Oct-10, 21:55
http://imaging.dundee.ac.uk/research/profiles/research-profiles/view/gair-dunlop/

this is the leader of the project

Bazeye
07-Oct-10, 22:22
and a lot of others who never worked at Dounreay have had cancer and died, including myself

Sorry to hear of your untimely death.

Rheghead
07-Oct-10, 22:37
Obviously your maths is slightly out as its 2 for incomers and one for Radon Total 3 and the "its all Dounreays fault" try to rubish it count eh let me see its 1

I'm interested in seeking the truth about splitting the atom rather than protecting the truth and splitting hairs.

Scunner
07-Oct-10, 23:07
Sorry to hear of your untimely death.


I'm very much alive, and thanks for your snide remarks

sids
07-Oct-10, 23:15
As a mass killer, it's overrated.

theone
07-Oct-10, 23:40
As a mass killer, it's overrated.

It'll get a third of us and kills a quarter of us. Quite effective I would say.

That said "Cancer" is not a single disease, so to credit "it" with all the deaths probably does mean it's overrated.

_Ju_
08-Oct-10, 07:11
I'm very much alive, and thanks for your snide remarks

The remak, I believe, was a humorous reply to your statement of fact. Read what you wrote again.

cullpacket
08-Oct-10, 14:55
Quote of the week?

John Little
08-Oct-10, 16:34
http://imaging.dundee.ac.uk/research/profiles/research-profiles/view/gair-dunlop/

this is the leader of the project


Thanks Bagpuss - I don't think I will contact him- on reflection he is probably interested in recording the site. It would not be fair to ask his thoughts on it.

rich
08-Oct-10, 18:00
It would be marvellous if someone filmed the Dundee film crew as they filmed....it would be like that clever Japanese film Rashomon.
Another question - should someone climb the dome? In fact didn't that once happen? Anyone remember - was it a group from Manchester University? With a banner. (non-political)

cherokee
08-Oct-10, 18:33
As a mass killer, it's overrated.

I lost a very close family member of mine to leukemia.........her husband worked at Dounreay........!!!!

Please do not call cancer as an "overrated" killer - unless you have lost a beloved family member to same, then I basically suggest YOU KEEP QUIET !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [evil][evil]

rich
08-Oct-10, 19:36
I would point out, with the greatest respect, that post-bereavment attitudes to cancer show a considerable range of emotion.

Dr. Bob Gallo, co-discoverer of the AIDs virus had a younger sister who died of cancer. Her experience led him to become a research scientist.

Other people have different but equaly powerful reactions.

This is not something to sweep under the counter. We will all die someday and the main causes will be cardiovascular or oncological.

The more we know about cancer the better for everyone. I know there is a lot of ignorant verbiage out there from the usual clods one encounters on life's journey.

Ignore them.

Their time will come.

lab
08-Oct-10, 23:28
Dont really have huge words or statistics to back up my theory or view but do have an opinion:) My dad was one of the original aprents he never died of cancer although i do have vivid childhood memories of him coming home in a paper boiler suit and being red raw from scrubbing. He died on an oil rig. Ive always thought might be ignorance may even be common sence, probably the result of too many glasses of wine though. Well there is another explanation for the cancer clusters and hot spots on beaches, like the neuclear naval base which hides behind a rolce royce sign.

bekisman
09-Oct-10, 09:55
Dont really have huge words or statistics to back up my theory or view but do have an opinion:) My dad was one of the original aprents he never died of cancer although i do have vivid childhood memories of him coming home in a paper boiler suit and being red raw from scrubbing. He died on an oil rig. Ive always thought might be ignorance may even be common sence, probably the result of too many glasses of wine though. Well there is another explanation for the cancer clusters and hot spots on beaches, like the neuclear naval base which hides behind a rolce royce sign.

How's the health of those that work here I wonder?

'The Vulcan Naval Reactor Test Establishment (NRTE) [at Dounreay] is a Ministry of Defence (MoD) establishment which houses prototype nuclear propulsion plants of the type operated by the Royal Navy in its submarine fleet. The establishment is responsible for testing the prototype nuclear reactors to be used in Royal Navy submarines, and the original prototype reactor developed for use in Trident submarines remains there. The facility also dismantles and examines the burnt out reactor cores, checking them against predicted operating parameters and providing feedback to the engineers and designers working on the next generation of reactors'
http://www.secretscotland.org.uk/index.php/Secrets/DounreayAirfield?from=Secrets.HMSVulcan#toc5 (http://www.secretscotland.org.uk/index.php/Secrets/DounreayAirfield?from=Secrets.HMSVulcan#toc5)

Rheghead
10-Oct-10, 06:45
http://www.secretscotland.org.uk/index.php/Secrets/DounreayAirfield?from=Secrets.HMSVulcan#toc5 (http://www.secretscotland.org.uk/index.php/Secrets/DounreayAirfield?from=Secrets.HMSVulcan#toc5)
[/SIZE]

Just looked at the Google map of the sea,just north of Dounreay and there is a very visible brown stained plume eminating from the Dounreay shoreline.

What have we done?:eek:

bekisman
10-Oct-10, 07:29
Just looked at the Google map of the sea,just north of Dounreay and there is a very visible brown stained plume eminating from the Dounreay shoreline.

What have we done?:eek:
Oh you mean the brown stain off most of the North coast? Peat suppose; why not ask someone who works there? ;)

Rheghead
10-Oct-10, 07:36
Oh you mean the brown stain off most of the North coast? Peat suppose; why not ask someone who works there? ;)

So the peat stain only comes from Dounreay?

John Little
10-Oct-10, 08:46
So the peat stain only comes from Dounreay?


LOL. Persiflage and intimation.

I wonder what is being intimated? Nay implied? [lol][lol]

bekisman
10-Oct-10, 09:01
So the peat stain only comes from Dounreay?

Reggy, passed you some months ago coming out of that area - surely you would know?

theone
10-Oct-10, 09:26
like the neuclear naval base which hides behind a rolce royce sign.

If you look at the sign it says "Naval Reactor Test Establishment" underneath the "Rolls Royce".

I'd hardly call that hiding...............

ducati
10-Oct-10, 11:54
Ha Ha This way to the secret nuclear base

bekisman
10-Oct-10, 13:09
Ha Ha This way to the secret nuclear base

Bit off track for a bit, don't know if anyone on here remembers the military liaison missions in BAOR? the ruskies would come over and drive around - they were SOXMIS - and were permitted to drive in the west.. it seems they were totally amazed to discover that every British military base in Germany, had a huge sign outside saying something like: "36 Engineer Regiment, 42 Sqn, 30 Sqn. 28 Sqn" all fully designated - totally unlike the secretive bases in the East.

Ok now back to Thread!