Enola Gay

[pultneytooner]

On the 6th of august 1945, a boeing b29 superfortress took off from the tinian island in the pacific carrying an awesome new weapon weighing almost 10,000lbs and containing 140lbs of deadly uranium 235.
The bomb was code-named little boy, the target for the mission, hiroshima.
The bomb load was released over it's target at 0915 hrs at an altitude of 31,000 feet.
Little boy exploded 800 feet above the target with the equivalent force of 20,000 tons of t.n.t.
Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds......

Always puts a shiver down my spine listening to that.

[Rheghead]

What do you find most distressing about the bomb? The fact that many people died? Or the method by which they died?

Can you imagine a japan if the US hadn't dropped the bomb? It could have been a lot worse.

[Kaishowing]

....Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds......


A chilling line from an old Hindu religeous text translated as 'Song Of The Blessed One', also famously quoted by J.Robert Oppenheimer, one of the 'fathers' of the atomic bomb upon witnessing the first test detonation.
Gives me the twitching awfuls too!

[pultneytooner]

What do you find most distressing about the bomb? The fact that many people died? Or the method by which they died?

Can you imagine a japan if the US hadn't dropped the bomb? It could have been a lot worse.
I would say both the method they died and how many died.

[Kaishowing]

Considering the horror the survivors were put through, I would think that the ones who died outright were the lucky ones.

[riggerboy]

what was the other bomb called

[Kaishowing]

The 2nd bomb dropped on Nagasaki 3 days later was called 'Fat man'

[Gleber2]

The bomb dropped on an uninhabited island near Japan would have ended the war I believe. There was no need for the USA to drop this bomb on Hiroshima or even less Nagasaki except to show that they could. Must be considered one of the biggest War Crimes ever.

[pultneytooner]

The bomb dropped on an uninhabited island near Japan would have ended the war I believe. There was no need for the USA to drop this bomb on Hiroshima or even less Nagasaki except to show that they could. Must be considered one of the biggest War Crimes ever.
They say that truman was left this expensive nuclear development program and had to justify it's existance using the threat of another okinawa if they invaded japan.

[Rheghead]

I would say both the method they died and how many died.

I can see what you mean, the bomb is a horrible way to go but only imho outwith of the inner blast zone. I actually wouldn't mind a death in it, it would be quick at least and hopefully without much warning.

Outside the blast zone there would be fires and stuff, but it maybe of the same nature of the conventional attack which was seen in Tokyo where more people died than Hiroshima and Nagasaki put together. So in that regard it would make more sense to me to be more distressed over the conventional firestorming of Tokyo which nobody makes a song and dance about these days. A touch of perspective might be needed perhaps.

War is horrible but inevitable. So long as there are people, there are people wanting to kill other people. To my mind, the modus operandi employed is of no consequence. To illustrate my point, use a mind experiment, if the US had the ability to drop a waterbomb of such magnitude that Hiroshima was destroyed and everyone drowned. And instead of fried bodies there were drowned ones lying about, would the event have been remembered or despised any different? To the people killed it doesn't. To me it doesn't. But the events of August 1945 brought an abrupt end to a long war. For that we can be thankful and in a way the events should be celebrated incuding the ingenuity of those involved in the project.

I am an aggressive pacifist. I am against all war including the most recent in the middle east. But if someone kicks our country then we should kick back harder to show example so in that sense I defend what the US did as they didn't start the war. They just created the circumstances which led to it.

I do concede that the US had revenge in their minds, but didn't we all? It is easy to lament with hindsight...

[JAWS]

On the 6th of august 1945, a boeing b29 superfortress took off from the tinian island in the pacific carrying an awesome new weapon weighing almost 10,000lbs and containing 140lbs of deadly uranium 235.
The bomb was code-named little boy, the target for the mission, hiroshima.
The bomb load was released over it's target at 0915 hrs at an altitude of 31,000 feet.
Little boy exploded 800 feet above the target with the equivalent force of 20,000 tons of t.n.t.
Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds......

Always puts a shiver down my spine listening to that.
What brought that suddenly to mind? Is there some relevance to today’s date?

Here is something else for you to give consideration to.

On the night of the 5/6 November 1940 HMS Jervis Bay a converted Merchant ship armed only with four old six inch guns attacked the Pocket Battleship "Admiral Scheer" in order to save the convoy she was escorting.
The "Admiral Scheer" was the sister ship to the "Graf Spee". She was six years old and of the latest design and armament. She had six 11 inch Guns, eight 5,9 inch guns and eight 21 inch torpedo tubes.

The sailors on HMS Jervis knew full well that they would never get close enough to even put a scratch on the Scheer's paintwork but they still attacked to allow the convoy to scatter into the darkness.

Look at the list of names below and let your shivering spine think of them.


Killed 5th Nov 1940.
James Anderson Smn. RNR. Old Schoolhouse, Thrumster. Married.
James Bain Smn. RNR. 18 Wellington St, Wick. Married. Age 27 yrs.
John M Bain Smn. RNR. 24 Kinnaird St, Wick. Age 27 yrs.
David R Bremner Smn. RNR. 31 Smith Ter, Wick. Married. Age 29 yrs.(in-law, W Miller).
William Bremner Smn. RNR. 5 Macarther St, Wick. Age 32 yrs.
John Innes Smn. RNR. Burnside, Oldwick, Wick. Married. Age 33 yrs.
William B Miller Smn. RNR. 31 Smith Ter, Wick. Age 27 yrs. (in-law, D Bremner)
John C Munro Smn. RNR New House, Keiss. Age 28 yrs.
Alex Webster Smn/Gnr. RNR. 41 Argyle Sq, Wick. Married. Age 32 yrs.

Survived

Donald Bain Awarded the D.S.M. "He was wounded and burned at his gun post on the "Jervis Bay", but he and another gunner continued in action, even after seven of the gun crew had been killed". He was the first Caithnessian to be awarded for bravery during the 2nd World War.

Smn. RNR. 136 Willowbank, Wick. Married.(Wounded 5th Nov 1940).
George Doull Smn. RNR. 23 a Girnigoe St, Wick.
David Dunbar Smn. RNR. Kyleburn Cottage, Lybster.
Jack Durrand. Smn. RNR 86 Willowbank, Wick. (Brother of Robert).
Robert Durrand Smn. RNR. 10 Bridge St, Wick. (Brother of Jack).
Robert Gunn Smn. RNR. Ackergill Crescent, Wick.
Alex Moonie Smn. RNR. 9 Macarthur St, Wick.
William Oag Smn. RNR. New Houses, Thrumster.
James Reid Smn. RNR. 17 Vansittart St, Wick.

http://www.iprom.co.uk/archives/caithness/jervisbaydetail.htm

Next Bonfire night, I hope a shiver again goes down your spine and you have the decency to remember the fate of those brave men from Caithness who willingly gave or risked their lives for your benefit.

They had the spine to put their lives on the line so we can have the freedom to sit and pass moral judgement on their generation without having the fear of the knock on the door because somebody had denounced us for thinking the wrong thing.

"Greater love hath no man than he lays down his life for a friend"
How much more so when he does it for people he does not even know?

[Lolabelle]

War is such a delicate subject. No one likes what has to be done at times, and I don't really have an opinion about the Japanese bombings, (I think all killing is dreadful) but my grandfather fought in New Guinea and he hated the Japanese, I think it is all about perspective. We live very near to Indonesia, and were they to decide that the needed more room, and invade Australia, then I would fight to keep my home safe from an invasion. Unfortunately, as it always was and always will be, the ones who make the decisions are not the ones on the front line.
It is always the innocent majority that pay for the ignorant minority.:~(

[JAWS]

War is such a delicate subject. No one likes what has to be done at times, and I don't really have an opinion about the Japanese bombings, (I think all killing is dreadful) but my grandfather fought in New Guinea and he hated the Japanese, I think it is all about perspective. We live very near to Indonesia, and were they to decide that the needed more room, and invade Australia, then I would fight to keep my home safe from an invasion. Unfortunately, as it always was and always will be, the ones who make the decisions are not the ones on the front line.
It is always the innocent majority that pay for the ignorant minority.:~( Many of the men I grew around felt exactly the same way. They wre the lucky ones who survived the Japanese POW Camps.

[JAWS]

The Rape of Nanking

“Between December 1937 and March 1938 one of the worst massacres in modern times took place. Japanese troops captured the Chinese city of Nanjing and embarked on a campaign of murder, rape and looting.
Based on estimates made by historians and charity organisations in the city at the time, between 250,000 and 300,000 people were killed, many of them women and children.
The number of women raped was said by Westerners who were there to be 20,000, and there were widespread accounts of civilians being hacked to death.
Yet many Japanese officials and historians deny there was a massacre on such a scale.
They admit that deaths and rapes did occur, but say they were on a much smaller scale than reported. And in any case, they argue, these things happen in times of war.
Tillman Durdin of the New York Times reported the early stages of the massacre before being forced to leave.
He later wrote: "I was 29 and it was my first big story for the New York Times. So I drove down to the waterfront in my car. And to get to the gate I had to just climb over masses of bodies accumulated there."
"The car just had to drive over these dead bodies. And the scene on the river front, as I waited for the launch... was of a group of smoking, chattering Japanese officers overseeing the massacring of a battalion of Chinese captured troops."
"They were marching about in groups of about 15, machine-gunning them."
As he departed, he saw 200 men being executed in 10 minutes to the apparent enjoyment of Japanese military spectators.
Also horrified at what he saw was John Rabe, a German who was head of the local Nazi party.
He became leader of the international safety zone and recorded what he saw, some of it on film, but this was banned by the Nazis when he returned to Germany.
He wrote about rape and other brutalities which occurred even in the middle of the supposedly protected area.“

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/223038.stm

There are other sites on the same issue but some of the information is far too graphic for me to wish to identify them on an open board.

The Japanese, despite all the eyewitnesses of various nationalities, stil deny the extent of the atrocities or that they ever happened at all. The nearest people have generally got to an acceptance that anything at all happened is, "These things happen in war!"

I heard one report of two Officers who had civilians rounded up and engaged in a contest to see who could behead the most in 60 minutes. They could not have been very good at it because the winner only managed, I think it was. 115. That’s not quite two a minute, but perhaps their arms got tired towards the end. Still, when you are bored how else do you entertain yourself for the odd hour?

It’s just one of those little incidents that got dusted into one of the corners of history which are hardly worth mentioning, who cares about a few hundred thousand Chinese raped, tortured, butchered (literally) or just simply killed just to pass the time when you get bored? This was not done in the frenzy of the aftermath of battle but coldly and dispassionately over a four month period. And that is just what occurred in one Chinese City.

But everybody has heard about Hiroshima and Nagasaki. But that was terrible, because we did that, didn’t we!

[pultneytooner]

What brought that suddenly to mind? Is there some relevance to today’s date?

Here is something else for you to give consideration to.

On the night of the 5/6 November 1940 HMS Jervis Bay a converted Merchant ship armed only with four old six inch guns attacked the Pocket Battleship "Admiral Scheer" in order to save the convoy she was escorting.
The "Admiral Scheer" was the sister ship to the "Graf Spee". She was six years old and of the latest design and armament. She had six 11 inch Guns, eight 5,9 inch guns and eight 21 inch torpedo tubes.

The sailors on HMS Jervis knew full well that they would never get close enough to even put a scratch on the Scheer's paintwork but they still attacked to allow the convoy to scatter into the darkness.

Look at the list of names below and let your shivering spine think of them.


Killed 5th Nov 1940.
James Anderson Smn. RNR. Old Schoolhouse, Thrumster. Married.
James Bain Smn. RNR. 18 Wellington St, Wick. Married. Age 27 yrs.
John M Bain Smn. RNR. 24 Kinnaird St, Wick. Age 27 yrs.
David R Bremner Smn. RNR. 31 Smith Ter, Wick. Married. Age 29 yrs.(in-law, W Miller).
William Bremner Smn. RNR. 5 Macarther St, Wick. Age 32 yrs.
John Innes Smn. RNR. Burnside, Oldwick, Wick. Married. Age 33 yrs.
William B Miller Smn. RNR. 31 Smith Ter, Wick. Age 27 yrs. (in-law, D Bremner)
John C Munro Smn. RNR New House, Keiss. Age 28 yrs.
Alex Webster Smn/Gnr. RNR. 41 Argyle Sq, Wick. Married. Age 32 yrs.

Survived

Donald Bain Awarded the D.S.M. "He was wounded and burned at his gun post on the "Jervis Bay", but he and another gunner continued in action, even after seven of the gun crew had been killed". He was the first Caithnessian to be awarded for bravery during the 2nd World War.

Smn. RNR. 136 Willowbank, Wick. Married.(Wounded 5th Nov 1940).
George Doull Smn. RNR. 23 a Girnigoe St, Wick.
David Dunbar Smn. RNR. Kyleburn Cottage, Lybster.
Jack Durrand. Smn. RNR 86 Willowbank, Wick. (Brother of Robert).
Robert Durrand Smn. RNR. 10 Bridge St, Wick. (Brother of Jack).
Robert Gunn Smn. RNR. Ackergill Crescent, Wick.
Alex Moonie Smn. RNR. 9 Macarthur St, Wick.
William Oag Smn. RNR. New Houses, Thrumster.
James Reid Smn. RNR. 17 Vansittart St, Wick.

http://www.iprom.co.uk/archives/caithness/jervisbaydetail.htm

Next Bonfire night, I hope a shiver again goes down your spine and you have the decency to remember the fate of those brave men from Caithness who willingly gave or risked their lives for your benefit.

They had the spine to put their lives on the line so we can have the freedom to sit and pass moral judgement on their generation without having the fear of the knock on the door because somebody had denounced us for thinking the wrong thing.

"Greater love hath no man than he lays down his life for a friend"
How much more so when he does it for people he does not even know?

Thanks for the heads up, jaws, having lived in caithness all my life with family stretching back generations, how did I miss hearing about the Jervis Bay?
My family must have forgoten to tell me about the relatives who died in ww1 and the ones who died in ww2.
Next time I need reminding about the losses caithness families suffered in various theatres of war, I will contact you on here for a history lesson.

[Lolabelle]

The Rape of Nanking

“Between December 1937 and March 1938 one of the worst massacres in modern times took place. Japanese troops captured the Chinese city of Nanjing and embarked on a campaign of murder, rape and looting.
Based on estimates made by historians and charity organisations in the city at the time, between 250,000 and 300,000 people were killed, many of them women and children.
The number of women raped was said by Westerners who were there to be 20,000, and there were widespread accounts of civilians being hacked to death.
Yet many Japanese officials and historians deny there was a massacre on such a scale.
They admit that deaths and rapes did occur, but say they were on a much smaller scale than reported. And in any case, they argue, these things happen in times of war.
Tillman Durdin of the New York Times reported the early stages of the massacre before being forced to leave.
He later wrote: "I was 29 and it was my first big story for the New York Times. So I drove down to the waterfront in my car. And to get to the gate I had to just climb over masses of bodies accumulated there."
"The car just had to drive over these dead bodies. And the scene on the river front, as I waited for the launch... was of a group of smoking, chattering Japanese officers overseeing the massacring of a battalion of Chinese captured troops."
"They were marching about in groups of about 15, machine-gunning them."
As he departed, he saw 200 men being executed in 10 minutes to the apparent enjoyment of Japanese military spectators.
Also horrified at what he saw was John Rabe, a German who was head of the local Nazi party.
He became leader of the international safety zone and recorded what he saw, some of it on film, but this was banned by the Nazis when he returned to Germany.
He wrote about rape and other brutalities which occurred even in the middle of the supposedly protected area.“

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/223038.stm

There are other sites on the same issue but some of the information is far too graphic for me to wish to identify them on an open board.

The Japanese, despite all the eyewitnesses of various nationalities, stil deny the extent of the atrocities or that they ever happened at all. The nearest people have generally got to an acceptance that anything at all happened is, "These things happen in war!"

I heard one report of two Officers who had civilians rounded up and engaged in a contest to see who could behead the most in 60 minutes. They could not have been very good at it because the winner only managed, I think it was. 115. That’s not quite two a minute, but perhaps their arms got tired towards the end. Still, when you are bored how else do you entertain yourself for the odd hour?

It’s just one of those little incidents that got dusted into one of the corners of history which are hardly worth mentioning, who cares about a few hundred thousand Chinese raped, tortured, butchered (literally) or just simply killed just to pass the time when you get bored? This was not done in the frenzy of the aftermath of battle but coldly and dispassionately over a four month period. And that is just what occurred in one Chinese City.

But everybody has heard about Hiroshima and Nagasaki. But that was terrible, because we did that, didn’t we!

Somewhere, somehow, I am sure that people will be answerable for these atrocities. I have watched many documentaries on this kind of thing, and unfortunately war seems to give these inhuman people the cover to get away with these acts. But it is not just the japanese, what about the slaves in the american south, the civil wars in the African countries, let alone what goes on and has gone on in the middle east, on both sides. It may not be to the same scale, but is the behaviour of some, and I do stress, some of the US soldiers with the POW's now any better? It is all sick making to any normal compassionate person. It is really sad, that we can torture and maim and kill each other for fun, and then to top it off, make movies about people killing and torturing each other for entertainment. And that's not even war movies.:~(

[JAWS]

Somewhere, somehow, I am sure that people will be answerable for these atrocities. I have watched many documentaries on this kind of thing, and unfortunately war seems to give these inhuman people the cover to get away with these acts. But it is not just the japanese, what about the slaves in the american south, the civil wars in the African countries, let alone what goes on and has gone on in the middle east, on both sides. It may not be to the same scale, but is the behaviour of some, and I do stress, some of the US soldiers with the POW's now any better? It is all sick making to any normal compassionate person. It is really sad, that we can torture and maim and kill each other for fun, and then to top it off, make movies about people killing and torturing each other for entertainment. And that's not even war movies.:~(
I would suggest you do a little more research into Nanking, what happened there bears no resemblence to anything carried out recently in Afghanistan or Iraq and I include both sides in both countries.

[JAWS]

Thanks for the heads up, jaws, having lived in caithness all my life with family stretching back generations, how did I miss hearing about the Jervis Bay?
My family must have forgoten to tell me about the relatives who died in ww1 and the ones who died in ww2.
Next time I need reminding about the losses caithness families suffered in various theatres of war, I will contact you on here for a history lesson.The don't lecture me on Hiroshima unless there is some reason why you suddenly docided it needed mentioning.
Was there any particular reason you found the subject of some urgency?

Perhaps there was only one country killing people in WW2.

If you expect me to have any moral qualms over the Enola Gay then forget it.
Japan wasn't a signatory to the Geneva Convention with respect to POWs.
Those who didn't return were never mentioned in my home town, what had happened to those who did return was bad enough.

Was there some point to suddenly bringing up something which occurred on the sixth of August in the middle of July?

[Lolabelle]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to sound as if I thought that any of these were comparable. I was just making the comment that people do awful things to each other in the name of war. Again, sorry, that my post came across with the wrong attitude. I wasn't comparing atrocities. And with out sounding like a complete ignoramus, I don't want to know too many details, because these kind of things play on my mind and I cannot deal very well with them. It may sound like a cop out, but I know myself and I don't handle that kind of thing very well at all. I know it happens, but I don't want to study it. :(

[pultneytooner]

The don't lecture me on Hiroshima unless there is some reason why you suddenly docided it needed mentioning.
Was there any particular reason you found the subject of some urgency?

Perhaps there was only one country killing people in WW2.

If you expect me to have any moral qualms over the Enola Gay then forget it.
Japan wasn't a signatory to the Geneva Convention with respect to POWs.
Those who didn't return were never mentioned in my home town, what had happened to those who did return was bad enough.


You make a lot of assumptions don't you jaws?
I didn't realise I wrote this post to lecture you or anybody else.
Firstly, the post is about my own personal feeling of horror about the use of tactical nuclear weapons and was looking for other peoples opinions on the rights or wrongs of hiroshima and in the current climate this is something I think alot of people will be worried about.


Perhaps there was only one country killing people in WW2 Was that your perception of my post, that's wildly innacurate even for you and frankly quite a sad tactic?


Was there some point to suddenly bringing up something which occurred on the sixth of August in the middle of July? If ever I wish to post on a subject within the rules and regardless of the relevance to the time of year, I will do so unless I have to run it by you first.;)

Do you feel it was right to snuff out the lives of thousands of "innocent" japanese because of savage war crimes in nanjing and other japanese occupied lands or do you agree because it brought about a swift end to the war?

[Kaishowing]

I don't know if it was wrong or right to use the bomb on Hiroshima...but I believe that the Nagasaki bombing wasn't needed at all.
I can understand that given the almost fanatical resistance that the Japanese military were showing, despite being regarded as being a beaten force, bringing the Pacific war to a swift end by dropping 'Little Boy' was perhaps a wise move.
There was no real way of knowing how many more lives could have been lost through conventional warfare by delaying the use of the bomb, and after bombing about another 60 japanese cities to dust with conventional bombs, there was obviously no moral problem for the Americans.

More than anything else though, the decision to use 'The Bomb' was based on justifying the huge cost spent on the Manhatten project....but more importantly it was to send a message to the Soviets who were already looking to the future after the war.
That's probably why the 2nd bomb was dropped...to show Stalin that the 1st wasn't a fluke.
As usual lives were lost to play the political game.

[fred]

You make a lot of assumptions don't you jaws?


Ah, someone else is starting to notice.

BTW The political faction which has taken control of the American Government were nicknamed "The Crazies" back in the 70s and 80s because they were campaigning for nuclear war with the USSR. They have managed to get the rules of engagement changed to allow pre-emtive nuclear strikes.

If Israel threatens Syria then Syria will respond and so will Iran, they have a mutual defence treaty. If America backs Israel then Russia and China will back Iran and that will be WWIII and it would almost certainly go nuclear with Neocons at the helm.

There are a lot of threads about 9/11, Iraq, Lebanon, the price of petrol, but they are all about the same thing. Afghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon arn't three different wars they are all part of the same war and wars are easy to start, easily escalate and get out of hand, are very hard things to stop and attrocities are always committed by both sides.

My uncle was a Japanese prisoner of war, all my parents generation were in WWII, my grandfather was in the trenches in WWI. We didn't know about 9/11 or 7/7 then but we knew about 11/11/11 we were never allowed to forget because it was so important not to forget, by remembering the horrors of war we could make certain it never happened again and that was the one thing my parents generation and their parents generation deemed more important than anything else. They would be appalled at how eager some people are to see the start of WWIII today, they would think we'd gone mad.

We must never forget the horrors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, never pretend it wasn't an attrocity, never try to excuse it and never ever let it happen again.

[pultneytooner]

I don't know if it was wrong or right to use the bomb on Hiroshima...but I believe that the Nagasaki bombing wasn't needed at all.
I can understand that given the almost fanatical resistance that the Japanese military were showing, despite being regarded as being a beaten force, bringing the Pacific war to a swift end by dropping 'Little Boy' was perhaps a wise move.
There was no real way of knowing how many more lives could have been lost through conventional warfare by delaying the use of the bomb, and after bombing about another 60 japanese cities to dust with conventional bombs, there was obviously no moral problem for the Americans.

More than anything else though, the decision to use 'The Bomb' was based on justifying the huge cost spent on the Manhatten project....but more importantly it was to send a message to the Soviets who were already looking to the future after the war.
That's probably why the 2nd bomb was dropped...to show Stalin that the 1st wasn't a fluke.
As usual lives were lost to play the political game.

Ah, someone else is starting to notice.

BTW The political faction which has taken control of the American Government were nicknamed "The Crazies" back in the 70s and 80s because they were campaigning for nuclear war with the USSR. They have managed to get the rules of engagement changed to allow pre-emtive nuclear strikes.

If Israel threatens Syria then Syria will respond and so will Iran, they have a mutual defence treaty. If America backs Israel then Russia and China will back Iran and that will be WWIII and it would almost certainly go nuclear with Neocons at the helm.

There are a lot of threads about 9/11, Iraq, Lebanon, the price of petrol, but they are all about the same thing. Afghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon arn't three different wars they are all part of the same war and wars are easy to start, easily escalate and get out of hand, are very hard things to stop and attrocities are always committed by both sides.

My uncle was a Japanese prisoner of war, all my parents generation were in WWII, my grandfather was in the trenches in WWI. We didn't know about 9/11 or 7/7 then but we knew about 11/11/11 we were never allowed to forget because it was so important not to forget, by remembering the horrors of war we could make certain it never happened again and that was the one thing my parents generation and their parents generation deemed more important than anything else. They would be appalled at how eager some people are to see the start of WWIII today, they would think we'd gone mad.

We must never forget the horrors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, never pretend it wasn't an attrocity, never try to excuse it and never ever let it happen again. Thank you both for your sensible thoughts on this thread that was all I asked for.

[JAWS]

The Crazies, also known as Code Name Trixie, is a 1973 American horror film about the effects of an accidental release of a military biological weapon on the inhabitants of an American town. It was written & directed by George A Romero. It starred Lane Carroll, Richard Liberty & Lynn Lowry. The film has two basic storylines. One follows the efforts of a group of civilians to stay alive during the disaster; the other follows the efforts of political & military leaders to contain the epidemic of violent insanity induced by the weapon. As often in Romeros work, the military are subjected to withering satire. Ordered to find the first expert they can lay hands on & convey him to the stricken town, the soldiers do precisely that, thus isolating the one man who might be able to find a cure in the middle of a disaster area with primitive facilities. The scientists protests that he will be more useful in a proper laboratory are overridden with the threat of brute force.

That aside, The Crazies gives us a glimpse into the breakdown of society. After a chemical agent is mistakenly let loose on a small Pennsylvania city, the film shows us the effects through the eyes of three groups of people; The Military Scientists & Normal citizens Whilst the film is not itself terrifying, you will be disturbed at the fact that it could happen.

http://www.dvdark.co.uk/c/prod/p5VY9W/

That's the only reference to "The Crazies" and the Military in America during the 1970s/80s.

The only other "Crazies" seem to be the description applied to those who took part in the real "Cannonball Runs". To give those who have no idea what thet were they made a comedy film about them of the same name.

Has anybody else heard the term "The Crazies" in relation to trying to start World War Three with the USSR?
I really shouldn't ask that question because I can feel a "Reagan Rage" coming on!

[JAWS]

Thank you both for your sensible thoughts on this thread that was all I asked for.Well that was obvious from the start. You knew that you would automatically get what you were seeking. “All I wanted was to have “sensible” people who would see everything my way!”
Or to put it another way, “Anybody who does not agree with me must be absolutely senseless!”
We all know who would agree with you so the all thing was nothing more that to provide a platform for a particular point of view.

You can think what you wish about Hiroshima because, by now, it serves no more purpose than fretting over John Balliol and Robert Bruce and which one should have been the rightful King of Scotland.
Doing something to ansure it doesn't happen again is a worthwhile effort but simply complaining, "What terrible things were done!" in an attempt to make people feel some kind of distaste for previous generations serves no purpose at all.

“I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds” was the comment Robert Oppenheimer made when the first bomb was tested at Los Alamos and not about Hiroshima.

His comment to Paul Tibbets, the Commander of the “Enola Gay” prior to the mission was, “Your biggest problem may be after the bomb has left your aircraft. The shock waves from the detonation could crush your plane. I am afraid that I can give you no guarantee that you will survive. “

The first bomb was dropped on the 6th of August, the second on the 9th. Japan surrendered on the following day the 10th.of August.

All the comments about what would have happened had the bombs not been used is nothing more than pure speculation.

To take the Island of Okinawa took over 80 days. The Japanese suffered 90,000 dead, when defeat became inevitable many jumped from cliffs to their deaths rather than be taken prisoner. Many Japanese women on the Island took exactly the same action, some with their babies in their arms.. The facts are well documented and are also on film. And no, the film isn’t “manufactured propaganda”, even the Japanese accept it as factual.
It says a lot about the Japanese mind set that only 4,000 soldiers were able to be taken prisoner. That’s was from a force of almost 100,000 Japanese defending one Island which was over 300 miles from the Japanese mainland. That battle ended only some six weeks before the bomb at Hiroshima.

Nobody knew what the Japanese reaction would be if it came to a land invasion of the Japanese Mainland.

Of course, once the War ended the probability of what might have happened could be more easily assessed.
But anybody can predict the winners of yesterday’s horse races, but could the same people tell you every winner of tomorrows races?

[MadPict]

Without the Atomic strikes against Japan we could be talking about the 1939-1949 Second World War. The Japanese were not going to give up their soil willingly.
While the raids on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were terrible, resulting in huge casualties and severe damage it would have been nothing compared to the casualties and probable flattening of the whole of Japan by conventional weapons.
So it did shorten the war by years.

And now we can all drive around in Japanese cars, watch Japanese televisions, use Japanese mobile phones and eat sushi....

Who won?.....

[JAWS]

Without the Atomic strikes against Japan we could be talking about the 1939-1949 Second World War. The Japanese were not going to give up their soil willingly.
While the raids on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were terrible, resulting in huge casualties and severe damage it would have been nothing compared to the casualties and probable flattening of the whole of Japan by conventional weapons.
So it did shorten the war by years.

And now we can all drive around in Japanese cars, watch Japanese televisions, use Japanese mobile phones and eat sushi....

Who won?.....What I find absolutely amazing is that, after some of the bile poured out by certain posters about America and Britain and their actions, is the difference when I compare it to the dignity of those who had suffered as POWs at the hands of the Japanese.

Most, if they knew you well enough would admit that they personally had an intense hatred of the Japanese which I could and still can understand. But nevr once did I hear one of them try to indoctrinate either me or their own children that we should feel the same way. They had the sense and dignity to know that spreading venom to us about the Japanese would serve no useful purpose at all.
When Japanese Motorbikes started to be imported there were no howls of disgust, nobody demonstrated outside the Motor Bike dealers selling them. Nobody thought of going and smashing the windows or demanding boycotts.

When, as youths, we bought Japanese Bikes, whatever their feelings were they kept to themselves and never even muttered a complaint. They knew how to behave with dignity and with pride.

What a different attitude nowadays, if you don’t like a countries outlets in certain products, let’s smash the place up. If you don’t agree with a Country then try and indoctrinate everybody into following your beliefs.

I certainly know who’s methods I find more appealing. Nobody ever tried to convince me that everything Japan was doing was to be detested, nobody tried to convince me that any Country linked to Japan was to be equally detested.

Neither, despite the Football rivalry and the taunts, many of which I find absolutely disgraceful, was I taught to feel any dislike of the Germans or any of their allies.

What a difference between then and now. It certainly says a lot about the way attitudes have changed over the years and now we wonder why many of the youngsters of today in certain places seem to be so intolerant of others.
I seems to me that they are being well trained by people who should know better.

[celtic 302]

We must never forget the horrors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, never pretend it wasn't an attrocity, never try to excuse it and never ever let it happen again.

did a man not once say: "the man who forgets history repeats it". it may have been said about the persecution of jews by hitler, but i think it syas alot.

also, the bombing stopped the war with japan, and a lot of people, proably more than wat was killed by the bombs, would have died at the hands off both US and Japanesse soldiers. The way the people at Hiroshima and Nagaski is died is as horrible a way to die as any, but there deaths were justified and could be seen as a necessary sacrifice.

It is hard to just death, but in the cases of H and N, i think it is justified. In war some live some die, or to coin a popular phrase, "u win some and u lose some", a win i think...

[fred]

Without the Atomic strikes against Japan we could be talking about the 1939-1949 Second World War. The Japanese were not going to give up their soil willingly.


Rubbish, the Japanese had been trying to surrender all summer, it's just that America demanded unconditional surrender.

The war would have been over in weeks even without killing all those innocent people at Hiroshima and Nagasaki but it would have been Russia doing the invading not America. Japan was dead in the water, didn't even have enough fuel to send fighters up to defend their cities from American bombers. America had done all the hard work and Russia was going to march in and take the spoils.

[MadPict]

Rubbish? Bit rich coming from the king of rubbish on these forums.
You believe your anti American version of history if you want to.
I can't be bothered arguing the toss with you or you supporters.
I have some paint I want to watch dry.

I didnt have anyone on my ignore list until today.
Hope you don't get too lonely in there. I have left some good history books written by Americans for you to read.......

[fred]

Has anybody else heard the term "The Crazies" in relation to trying to start World War Three with the USSR?
I really shouldn't ask that question because I can feel a "Reagan Rage" coming on!

Try a google search on "crazies in the basement" and see how many hits you come up with.

[JAWS]

Try a google search on "crazies in the basement" and see how many hits you come up with.I found loads of sites. I checked through five pages. There were plenty of sites about Music and DVDs.
In the five pages of sites there were the usual “War Without End”, and an Independent Media Centre site which gave me Page Unavailable but he Home Page says everything you need to know about the site, it was a long list of the usual anti-American articles.

I gave up after five pages having found only one article from the type of location I could have predicted. The Site is War Without End, the author of the article is one Scott Ritter. When you check some of his other articles you get the distinct sound of Axes Being Ground,

The only reference to “Crazies in the Basement” would appear to have been a comment by George Bush Senior.
I can’t quite remember which part of the 1970s Bush Senior was President.
It would appear that the comment was a one-off made under unknown circumstanced.
.

[Dreadnought]

Without the Atomic strikes against Japan we could be talking about the 1939-1949 Second World War

On another forum I have many friends in FSU (Former Soviet Union) countries. They and many of their countrymen are firmly of the opinion that WW2 did not end until the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1990.
They believe they were left to their fate under Stalin and his successors by Roosevelt and (to a lesser extent because he wanted the Russians to be forced to withdraw to their pre-war borders) Churchill when they drew up their post war plan for Europe at the Yalta conference in February 1945.

[fred]

Rubbish? Bit rich coming from the king of rubbish on these forums.
You believe your anti American version of history if you want to.
I can't be bothered arguing the toss with you or you supporters.
I have some paint I want to watch dry.


Cognitive Dissonance, that's what it's called what you and others are doing.

Cognitive Dissonance Theory says that when faced with a conflict between how someone percieves themself and how they behave it will cause anxiety and they will resolve the axiety by altering reality.

Basically if someone sees themselves as a kind generous person and one day find themselves walking past a begger asking for money for food they will resolve the conflict by telling themselves that the begger only wanted the money to buy drink or drugs with and they will believe that above all else even though there is no evidence to support it. They will never even consider the possibility that they arn't as kind and generous as they think they are.

So when faced with the fact we murdered thousands of innocent women and children at Hiroshima and Nagasaki for political ends they believe we saved the lives of millions of Japanese and American servicemen who would have been killed in the invasion. When faced with the fact we invaded Iraq, a sovereign nation, not because they were a threat but for political reasons then they tell themselves we did them a favour bringing them freedom and democracy. When faced with the fact we are supporting Israel, a ruthless aggressor, they say things like "what can they do, the Arabs are trying to drive them into the sea" or "it's in Lebanons interests that any ceasfire is permanent".

They will never even consider the possibility that how we percieve ourselves and how we behave are two different things.

[fred]

I found loads of sites. I checked through five pages. There were plenty of sites about Music and DVDs.
In the five pages of sites there were the usual “War Without End”, and an Independent Media Centre site which gave me Page Unavailable but he Home Page says everything you need to know about the site, it was a long list of the usual anti-American articles.


So you found the evidence which you wanted to believe didn't exist but don't want to believe it anyway.

Colin Powell called the Neocons "crazies" too, can't tell you what the first word was.

[celtic 302]

Cognitive Dissonance, that's what it's called what you and others are doing.

Cognitive Dissonance Theory says that when faced with a conflict between how someone percieves themself and how they behave it will cause anxiety and they will resolve the axiety by altering reality.

Basically if someone sees themselves as a kind generous person and one day find themselves walking past a begger asking for money for food they will resolve the conflict by telling themselves that the begger only wanted the money to buy drink or drugs with and they will believe that above all else even though there is no evidence to support it. They will never even consider the possibility that they arn't as kind and generous as they think they are.

So when faced with the fact we murdered thousands of innocent women and children at Hiroshima and Nagasaki for political ends they believe we saved the lives of millions of Japanese and American servicemen who would have been killed in the invasion. When faced with the fact we invaded Iraq, a sovereign nation, not because they were a threat but for political reasons then they tell themselves we did them a favour bringing them freedom and democracy. When faced with the fact we are supporting Israel, a ruthless aggressor, they say things like "what can they do, the Arabs are trying to drive them into the sea" or "it's in Lebanons interests that any ceasfire is permanent".

They will never even consider the possibility that how we percieve ourselves and how we behave are two different things.

a couple fo things. firstly, the whole post is a lot of rubbish, and secondly, when you say that we are supporting israel, thats not the complete truth. the truth is that our government is supporting israel(well mr blair anyway) not nessesarily the people of GB. wat ur saying is that everyone supporst israel because our gov does, and, simply, thats wrong.

[fred]

a couple fo things. firstly, the whole post is a lot of rubbish, and secondly, when you say that we are supporting israel, thats not the complete truth. the truth is that our government is supporting israel(well mr blair anyway) not nessesarily the people of GB. wat ur saying is that everyone supporst israel because our gov does, and, simply, thats wrong.

We elect a government and that government makes decisions on our behalf. If our government supports Israel then the people of Britain as a whole support Israel regardless of what each individual does.

[celtic 302]

do you support israel fred?

[sjwahwah]

a couple fo things. firstly, the whole post is a lot of rubbish, and secondly, when you say that we are supporting israel, thats not the complete truth. the truth is that our government is supporting israel(well mr blair anyway) not nessesarily the people of GB. wat ur saying is that everyone supporst israel because our gov does, and, simply, thats wrong.
when we stand by while our government whom we have supposedly elected lets the Americans fly in and out of Scotland weapons of mass destruction to help the Israeli army kill Lebanese & Palestinian folk and nobody does one thing about it we are supporting Israel. full stop.

[celtic 302]

1. there not weapons of mass destrucion. WoMD are Nucs, where as the weapons that were at prestwick for a while were laser guided missiles. 2. im a youth, who isnt old enought to vote, so wat can i do, and who would really listen????

[pultneytooner]

Well that was obvious from the start. You knew that you would automatically get what you were seeking. “All I wanted was to have “sensible” people who would see everything my way!” Or to put it another way, “Anybody who does not agree with me must be absolutely senseless!” Yes jaws, I got the response I wanted which is other peoples views on the subject matter I posted on, whether people see things my way or not doesn't come into the equation, everyone including yourself is entitled to their own train of thought and I would never try to force my opinions on anyone else and for you to think so is quite insulting. I used the term, 'sensible' posts as I thought your first two were unnecessarily vitriolic.
You can think what you wish about Hiroshima because, by now, it serves no more purpose than fretting over John Balliol and Robert Bruce and which one should have been the rightful King of Scotland. Doing something to ansure it doesn't happen again is a worthwhile effort but simply complaining, "What terrible things were done!" in an attempt to make people feel some kind of distaste for previous generations serves no purpose at all. You are quite right, I can think what I wan't about hiroshima and so can you but I would disagree on your point that talking about it serves no purpose. How do we learn then if not from previous generations mistakes or successes. Pretty strange analogy you are making about hiroshima and whether john balliol or robert bruce should have been king but nevermind, that's your prerogative.
“I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds” was the comment Robert Oppenheimer made when the first bomb was tested at Los Alamos and not about Hiroshima. I never implied that he said that about hiroshima.

All the comments about what would have happened had the bombs not been used is nothing more than pure speculation. Of course it is speculation and won't change what happened but by remembering and discussing things we can perhaps learn from past mistakes.


Doing something to ensure it doesn't happen again is a worthwhile effort
Exactly.....

[sjwahwah]

1. there not weapons of mass destrucion. WoMD are Nucs, where as the weapons that were at prestwick for a while were laser guided missiles. 2. im a youth, who isnt old enought to vote, so wat can i do, and who would really listen????
I consider a weapon of mass destruction to be any item of weaponry rich people make too much money off peddling and can kill more than one person at one time... anything less is called a gun.

what you can do about it... no matter what you feel strongly about and in your mind and research it is fact.. tell people.. if they ridicule you or tell you you're crazy despite the facts presented... don't despair.. they've heard you.. and can't unhear you.. (fred's cognitive dissonance post comes into this) and the next time something dodgy comes up on the topic... these people will have their cogs turning...

next thing.. stop buying into the system.. that is probably the number one thing you can do... the less dependence on them the less control they have on you.

[celtic 302]

nice idea sjwahwah (last sentence), but its the government. how can i stop buying into it. lets just think about it. there s the nhs. stop buying in to it? i prefer it to paying much more for private treatment. Schools. i go to one, and i want an education, i cant stop "buying into" one. the list goes on, and im sure u dont want me to bore you.

middle paragraph. maybe in ur day u could say wat you thought, but nowadays, ifi went around my school, or my friends, and started saying about israel and war etc, id get called a geek, a lozer, a freak, and thats before and after the bullies in the school flush my head down the toilet.

first line. wat i sayed is not wati consider, just a definition

[sjwahwah]

nice idea sjwahwah (last sentence), but its the government. how can i stop buying into it. lets just think about it. there s the nhs. stop buying in to it? i prefer it to paying much more for private treatment. Schools. i go to one, and i want an education, i cant stop "buying into" one. the list goes on, and im sure u dont want me to bore you.

middle paragraph. maybe in ur day u could say wat you thought, but nowadays, ifi went around my school, or my friends, and started saying about israel and war etc, id get called a geek, a lozer, a freak, and thats before and after the bullies in the school flush my head down the toilet.

first line. wat i sayed is not wati consider, just a definition
i don't use anything off the nhs anymore... i use strictly herbal & chiropractic medicine and I don't eat rubbish. at least you know what your gettin. great your in school... well when you get out.. see the world.. travel... ALOT.. meet people.. learn things.. they can't teach you this in school or out of a book. and find out for yourself what you need to do for yourself and others... (editing.. forgot one other important thing.. learn how to survive.. they don't teach you THAT in school.. learn how to do basic survival skills.. grow your own food, medicine, energy.. basics.. just basics... what I mean is in school they teach that you need to do well so that you can become a worker bee in something most likely very or slightly unethical so you can earn "money" to buy what you need... self-sufficiency on any scale is a step in the right direction.. keep that in mind)

och.. people call me worse things everyday dear... but, I've seen paragraph two work in their own favour. and remember good ol' Mark Twain..

"In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot"

[celtic 302]

first para - point taken
2nd & 3rd para - unlucky about the name calling. also, whats mark twain got to do with anything?

[sjwahwah]

first para - point taken
2nd & 3rd para - unlucky about the name calling. also, whats mark twain got to do with anything?

read the quote one more time!;)

[celtic 302]

i get it. ive got a Mark Twain quote of my own, that says alot about me.

"its better to let them think your a fool, that to open your mouth and remove all doubt"

[JAWS]

So you found the evidence which you wanted to believe didn't exist but don't want to believe it anyway.

Colin Powell called the Neocons "crazies" too, can't tell you what the first word was.I didn't realise Colin Powell was that important that anybody would remember what he said in the 1970s and 1980s when you said the term was being used.

[JAWS]

“I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds” was the comment Robert Oppenheimer made when the first bomb was tested at Los Alamos and not about Hiroshima.



I never implied that he said that about hiroshima.




On the 6th of august 1945, a boeing b29 superfortress took off from the tinian island in the pacific carrying an awesome new weapon weighing almost 10,000lbs and containing 140lbs of deadly uranium 235.
The bomb was code-named little boy, the target for the mission, hiroshima.
The bomb load was released over it's target at 0915 hrs at an altitude of 31,000 feet.
Little boy exploded 800 feet above the target with the equivalent force of 20,000 tons of t.n.t.
Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds…..

Sorry pultneytooner, silly me. I must take a crash refresher course on English Comprehension.
I didn’t realise that the last line was nothing to do with the rest of that particular post which was all about what happened at Hiroshima.

[Dreadnought]

"maybe in ur day u could say wat you thought, but nowadays, ifi went around my school, or my friends, and started saying about israel and war etc, id get called a geek, a lozer, a freak, and thats before and after the bullies in the school flush my head down the toilet."



Reading your post saddens me. A lot. What chance has Britain got if people will not voice an opinion for fear of ridicule by the herd? Be proud that you have an opinion, look at those bullies for what they are: destined to get old and fat with fifteen kids screaming around them as they rot on the sofa watching Big Brother.
In my schooldays, those who did not voice opinions were the odd ones out. I grew up with punk rock, Brixton and Toxteth riots, CND marches, Greenpeace protests... I was on the Poll Tax march to Trafalgar Square, I saw the police charge their horses straight into the crowd who were doing nothing but standing and I was baton charged by Maggie Thatchers blue suited stormtroopers, I marched with the miners and watched steam rising from Arthur Scargill's rain soaked shoulders as he spoke in Hyde Park. If these things make me a loser, a geek a freak, than I am PROUD to be a loser, a geak and a freak. How terribly sad that we are now raising a generation for whom the most important issues are whether they can get on Pop Idol or what make of trainers to buy.

I don't know how old you are, but if you are in secondary school maybe you could speak to a teacher, ask them if they can do a history lesson about the Middle East. At least that would start a discussion. From that perhaps you could organise a petition to send to Tony Blair protesting the use of Britain as a staging post for weapons which will be used to kill innocent civilians. There are many ways to make your voice heard.

As for your Mark Twain quote, that does not apply to you.

[fred]

do you support israel fred?

My country does.

[Dreadnought]

My country does.

No, your Government does. The Government is not the country.

New Labour were elected to a third term by 37% of a national voter turnout of 61.3% of the population (see here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/constituencies/default.stm)). So doing the calcs shows that New Labour were elected to power by 22.681% of the population of Britain. Hardly representative of the 'country' is it?

[fred]

middle paragraph. maybe in ur day u could say wat you thought, but nowadays, ifi went around my school, or my friends, and started saying about israel and war etc, id get called a geek, a lozer, a freak, and thats before and after the bullies in the school flush my head down the toilet.


Then just tell them about an Emperor and some new clothes and maybe when they grow up they will remember and they will understand the world better.


"All truth goes through three stages. First it is ridiculed. Then it is violently opposed. Finally, it is accepted as self-evident."

Arthur Schopenhauer

[JAWS]

I consider a weapon of mass destruction to be any item of weaponry rich people make too much money off peddling and can kill more than one person at one time... anything less is called a gun.


China is fast emerging as one of the world's biggest, most secretive and irresponsible arms exporters,

The report shows how Chinese weapons have helped sustain brutal conflicts, criminal violence and other grave human rights violations in countries such as Sudan, Nepal, Burma and South Africa.

'China's arms exports policy is reckless and dangerous, paying no heed to human rights. It is the only major arms exporter that has not signed up to agreements preventing arms exports to human rights abusers.'
China's arms exports, estimated to be in excess of US$1 billion a year, often involve the exchange of weapons for raw materials to fuel the country's rapid economic growth. But it is a trade shrouded in secrecy: Beijing does not publish any information about arms transfers abroad and hasn't submitted any data to the UN Register on Conventional Arms in the last eight years.

The report's main findings include:
More than 200 Chinese military trucks -- normally fitted with US Cummins diesel engines -- shipped to Sudan in August 2005, despite a US arms embargo on both countries and the involvement of similar vehicles in the killing and abduction of civilians in Darfur;
Regular Chinese military shipments to Burma (Myanmar), including the supply in August 2005 of 400 military trucks to the Burmese army despite its involvement in the torture, killing and forced eviction of hundreds of thousands of civilians;
Chinese military exports to Nepal in 2005 and early 2006, including a deal to supply nearly 25 thousand Chinese-made rifles and 18,000 grenades to Nepalese security forces, at the time involved in the brutal repression of thousands of civilian demonstrators;
An increasingly illicit trade in Chinese-made Norinco pistols in Australia, Malaysia, Thailand and particularly South Africa, where they are commonly used for robbery, rape and other crimes.
A report by the nasty media? No, a report produced by Amnesty International 09 June 2006
http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=16985



Analyses from private and some western government experts estimate Hizbollah has stockpiled at least 10,000 of the Katushya. According to sources at the United Nations, Hizbollah claimed a year ago that it had 12,000. John Pike, a defence expert at GlobalSecurity.org, said the organisation had used only about 3 per cent of its arsenal since it began its recent campaign.
The analyses also concur with Israeli assessments that the group has longer-range missiles including the Iranian-made Fajr, with a 45km range, and even possibly the larger 200km-range Zelzal, with the theoretical capacity to reach Tel Aviv.
Hizbollah also displayed signs of increasing sophistication with the firing of a C-802 Silkworm cruise missile, with an anti-jamming capacity, at an Israeli ship last week. The radar-guided missile, which can be fired from land or sea, could have been in China's arsenal in the 1980s and have reached Hizbollah after modification by a third party, possibly Iran, analysts said.
They agreed that the Hizbollah campaign could not have been spontaneous and had been planned, at least as a contingency, for some time.
Hizbollah is said to have received much of its weaponry from Iran and from Syria. Officials at the UN, who asked not to be identified, said missiles had transited through Syria.

Last October, a report by Kofi Annan, UN secretary-general, cited evidence of "an increasing influx of weaponry and personnel from Syria" to militia in Lebanon. In February, the UN issued warnings about a large transfer of arms from Syria to Lebanon on January 31, and collusion by the Lebanese army. In March, the Lebanese government maintained that the flow had stopped, a UN official said, but it was unclear whether that was the case.
UN officials have said that at a September 9 meeting last year, Syrian leader Bashar al-Assad told militia leaders that there were no red lines limiting their destabilising activity in Lebanon.
http://www.iiss.org/whats-new/iiss-in-the-press/july-2006/hizbollah-capable-of-sustained-campaign

Fancy Amnesty International spreading such nasty lies about China. Everybody knows that it's only greedy Western Arms Manufacturers who behave in that manner.

And to add to that, the UN spreading malicious stories that Iran is involved in supplying Hezbollah with weapons of mass destruction such as the Silkworm Missile.
Then Kofi Annan joining in saying that there is an increasing influx of weaponry and personnel from Syria to militia (read Hezbollah) in Lebanon and the Lebanese Army are colluding with this.

And the Katyusha Rockets? Now who would you think manufactured them? Couldn’t possibly be Russia could it?

Makes you wonder just who is stirring things up in the Middle East and in many other trouble-spots round the World supplying Weapons of Mass Destruction. .

[fred]

No, your Government does. The Government is not the country.

New Labour were elected to a third term by 37% of a national voter turnout of 61.3% of the population (see here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/constituencies/default.stm)). So doing the calcs shows that New Labour were elected to power by 22.681% of the population of Britain. Hardly representative of the 'country' is it?

So our system of democracy is unfair, it doesn't alter anything.

If you are a part of a democratic group you agree to abide by the majority decision on matters which involve the group. Labour was elected to represent Britain under the rules for elections which were in place at the time so they make decisions on behalf of all of us even if some of us don't agree with them. As an individual I don't support Israel but in the world Britain does.

There are a lot of laws I don't agree with but that doesn't count for much if I'm caught breaking one of them.

At least Americans have the excuse that their elections were rigged, we don't even have that.

[fred]

I didn't realise Colin Powell was that important that anybody would remember what he said in the 1970s and 1980s when you said the term was being used.

There are so many things you never realised JAWS.

[MadPict]

i don't use anything off the nhs anymore...

Oh so you're paying for something you don't use? Or are you one of the spongers who takes but pays no taxes?

And then when you have an accident or you are involved in a life threatening situation (heaven forbid) you're going to treat yourself? Or are you going to refuse the NHS ambulance which turns up at your door?


Oh, I forgot, by then there will be no ambulance service in the far north as the NHS will have withdrawn it to Inverness and you're probably be served by community "First Responders" (who do a valiant job propping up the health service cuts inflicted by the government I did not vote for....)

[sjwahwah]

A report by the nasty media? No, a report produced by Amnesty International 09 June 2006
http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=16985



http://www.iiss.org/whats-new/iiss-in-the-press/july-2006/hizbollah-capable-of-sustained-campaign

Fancy Amnesty International spreading such nasty lies about China. Everybody knows that it's only greedy Western Arms Manufacturers who behave in that manner.

And to add to that, the UN spreading malicious stories that Iran is involved in supplying Hezbollah with weapons of mass destruction such as the Silkworm Missile.
Then Kofi Annan joining in saying that there is an increasing influx of weaponry and personnel from Syria to militia (read Hezbollah) in Lebanon and the Lebanese Army are colluding with this.

And the Katyusha Rockets? Now who would you think manufactured them? Couldn’t possibly be Russia could it?

Makes you wonder just who is stirring things up in the Middle East and in many other trouble-spots round the World supplying Weapons of Mass Destruction. .

where in my comment do you see me mention "western world arms dealers"??? I'm fully aware that Hugo Chavez has agreed a sale of fighter jets with Putin yesturday and is going to support him for the UN Security Council.. and so he should cause Venezuelas next on the public menu.

You don't need to convince me all the globalists are just as evil as each other.. no matter their geographical location.

And I think you have my comments on China mixed up with the Media Manipulation thread.. I know you've been gone for a whole day... but, we'll keep ya right ol buddy.

[sjwahwah]

i believe.. I pay taxes everyday. I am referring to prescription suicide... I do not use pharmaceuticals... not even aspirin... or vaccines.. my problem with the health service is that "preventive" medicine is not their priorty.. and the number of drugs they dole out everyday that suppress symptoms of one illness cause other ailments. I have nothing against the doctors or nurses.. they are doing a good job... but, big pharma predicts to them what they should do whether the doctors know better or not.

I'm a perfectly fit person and am not expecting any accidents in the near future.. if I do though, say chop off a finger or break my kneecap I'll let you know how it goes.

[MadPict]

You "believe" you pay taxes?

I pay taxes too - I don't have kids but I still seem to be paying onto the education pot. Fair? Not in my eyes. :mad:

We use the NHS - so far we have been pretty happy with our 'treatment' (including some serious health scares which thankfully proved to be false), we have an excellent GP who actually is willing to spend time with her patients and not just rush you in and out while clock watching.

So I don't begrudge paying my part, but I do begrudge the government/NHS (mis)managers threatening the closure of the very services, at our local main hospital, which we had to use recently....


No vaccines?
No kids?
(Isn't there a legal requirement on parents to have their children vaccinated against childhood diseases? I ask as I don't have any rugrats...)

No vaccines?
No travel abroad?

well when you get out.. see the world.. travel... ALOT.. meet people.. learn things.. they can't teach you this in school or out of a book.

So, say you do, you travel to countries with a vaccination requirement but you don't get vaccinated?...
You risk catching Typhoid, Hepatitis A, Diphtheria, Tuberculosis, Hepatitis B, Rabies, Meningococcal meningitis, Yellow fever, Japanese B encephalitis, Tick-borne encephalitis?......

I just wonder, if you follow your own advice ("see the world.. travel... ALOT.."), how you will approach a vaccine situation without feeling a hypocrite...



Or is that when you change your username to "sjblahblah"?......

[celtic 302]

So our system of democracy is unfair, it doesn't alter anything.

If you are a part of a democratic group you agree to abide by the majority decision on matters which involve the group.

Just because you abide by the majority decision, doesnt mean you belive what the majority believes. I asked you did you support Israel, not whether your country did. What you said is that YOU SUPPORT ISRAEL, because your country does. So YOU think that Israel BOMBING and KILLING INNOCENT CIVILLIANS is right?

[MadPict]

No, what he said was

My country does.

[celtic 302]

in saying that his country does, he said that he supports what his country supports, and his country supports Israel...

[MadPict]

I somehow think 'fred' would rather rip out his own tongue with a rusty pair of pliers than admit to supporting Israel.......

[sjwahwah]

You "believe" you pay taxes?

I pay taxes too - I don't have kids but I still seem to be paying onto the education pot. Fair? Not in my eyes. :mad:

We use the NHS - so far we have been pretty happy with our 'treatment' (including some serious health scares which thankfully proved to be false), we have an excellent GP who actually is willing to spend time with her patients and not just rush you in and out while clock watching.

So I don't begrudge paying my part, but I do begrudge the government/NHS (mis)managers threatening the closure of the very services, at our local main hospital, which we had to use recently....


No vaccines?
No kids?
(Isn't there a legal requirement on parents to have their children vaccinated against childhood diseases? I ask as I don't have any rugrats...)

No vaccines?
No travel abroad?


So, say you do, you travel to countries with a vaccination requirement but you don't get vaccinated?...
You risk catching Typhoid, Hepatitis A, Diphtheria, Tuberculosis, Hepatitis B, Rabies, Meningococcal meningitis, Yellow fever, Japanese B encephalitis, Tick-borne encephalitis?......

I just wonder, if you follow your own advice ("see the world.. travel... ALOT.."), how you will approach a vaccine situation without feeling a hypocrite...



Or is that when you change your username to "sjblahblah"?......

no.. no vaccines.. and vaccines are a not a requirement... UNLESS you are trying to put your child into American schools anyways.. tell my mate who spent a year in Somalia after being vaccinated by the US army.. but, is now suffering terribly from Malaria. You obviously no nothing about vaccines then.. but, if you wanna go into it.. I gladly will.

speaking of hypocrits... how about the hypocratic oath? maybe you should try reading it then come tell me how wonderful conventional medicine really is!

[JAWS]

where in my comment do you see me mention "western world arms dealers"??? I'm fully aware that Hugo Chavez has agreed a sale of fighter jets with Putin yesturday and is going to support him for the UN Security Council.. and so he should cause Venezuelas next on the public menu.
Venezuela next on what what "public menu"?


I consider a weapon of mass destruction to be any item of weaponry rich people make too much money off peddling (My bolds)
Rich People make too much money off pedalling? I don’t think it takes a genius to work out what conclusions people would be likely to draw from those comments.


You don't need to convince me all the globalists are just as evil as each other.. no matter their geographical location.
And exactly what particular qualities are required to become a Globalist as opposed to a Non-Globalist?

[sjwahwah]

jaws..you seem to draw out your own assumptions to everything everyone has ever said! I mentioned China on a whole nother thread.. Media Manipulation.. not on this one... that is for sure.. neither did I mention America. besides.. the arms makers & peddlers in America have multi national partners anyways.. including the Bin Ladens & ex-prime ministers of this country... so is that a moot point? doesn't take a genius to figure that out either!

[MadPict]

no.. no vaccines.. and vaccines are a not a requirement... UNLESS you are trying to put your child into American schools anyways.. tell my mate who spent a year in Somalia after being vaccinated by the US army.. but, is now suffering terribly from Malaria. You obviously no nothing about vaccines then.. but, if you wanna go into it.. I gladly will.

speaking of hypocrits... how about the hypocratic oath? maybe you should try reading it then come tell me how wonderful conventional medicine really is!

I know about vaccines - I also know about the rush by the military to pump service personnel full of all sorts of questionable substances in the run up to the Gulf War and of the consequences of blindly saying "Yeah, I'll have some of that..."

I also know about the benefits of NOT taking a course of anti malaria drugs and that of taking it.

I'm not an ignorant person living in a cave who has not, to use your phrase again, seen the world.. travelled... ALOT.. met people.. learnt things..

I have probably done more and seen more in my years than you have yet to even dream about.

You wish to follow a course of not relying on modern medicine and that is fine. But don't treat others on this forum as if they are still wet behind the ears.

[sjwahwah]

that's good you've done and seen so much more than everybody else in your life... great I bow to you. and I'm glad you know ALL about me or anybody else on this forum.

my words to celtic were for him to try these things.. not once in that sentence did I say I've done anything. that was not my phrase..

I believe on the subject of vaccines you ARE wet behind the ears... if you can speak to it then speak to it old wise one.

full of insults and slams but, cannot speak to all these things you know so much about..

[MadPict]

that's good you've done and seen so much more than everybody else in your life... great I bow to you. and I'm glad you know ALL about me or anybody else on this forum.

my words to celtic were for him to try these things.. not once in that sentence did I say I've done anything. that was not my phrase..

I believe on the subject of vaccines you ARE wet behind the ears... if you can speak to it then speak to it old wise one.

full of insults and slams but, cannot speak to all these things you know so much about..

sjblahblah,
I said "I have probably done.." not I have done - subtle difference - I don't know you (nor at this rate do I think I wish to know you) and you have no need to bow before me. You could be as old as Methuselah or as young as someone just discovering shaving.

You do not know me either so to say I AM wet behind the ears regarding vaccines is wrong. I chose not to get any deeper into the discussion because it is my right not because I fear losing a discussion with you - whoever you are, whatever you are.

[sjwahwah]

we;ve got more kings of semantics and life turns than anywhere else I've EVER seen.. . I bow.

[celtic 302]

sorry for all the trouble ive caused sjwahwah...

[sjwahwah]

never fear my dear! I'm used to it.:)

[fred]

Just because you abide by the majority decision, doesnt mean you belive what the majority believes. I asked you did you support Israel, not whether your country did. What you said is that YOU SUPPORT ISRAEL, because your country does. So YOU think that Israel BOMBING and KILLING INNOCENT CIVILLIANS is right?

Someone else who likes to dictate both sides of an argument.

One person not supporting Israel does not mean Britain does not support Israel. Even a majority of people not supporting Israel does not mean Britain does not support Israel. The government decides what Britain supports or doesn't support not individuals.

The individual and the state are two different things. A group of individuals and the state are two different things. Even every individual and the state are two different things. Tony Blair himself could personally not support Israel yet give permission for American planes flying arms to Israel to refuel here, when he makes decissions for the state he has to think for the state not as a person. Like a lawyer has to make decissions for his client not for himself and must give a client he believes guilty the best defence he can.

Grasp this concept and you will understand what I said.

[Cedric Farthsbottom III]

Pultneytooner,knowing your love o' music.This thread grabbed me not for the politics or anything but music.

When someone mentions Enola gay I don't first think of atom bombs but of a song by Orchaestral Manoeuvres in the Dark....a wee dinky pop song.

Ma reason for postin' was cause on the other side U2 saw the exhibition on the horrors of Hiroshima called "The Unforgettable Fire".They ended up writing a song and named their new album after it(1984)

I know,not political,but thought I would post a wee musical banter!!!!:lol: :lol:

[Dreadnought]

So our system of democracy is unfair, it doesn't alter anything.

If you are a part of a democratic group you agree to abide by the majority decision on matters which involve the group. Labour was elected to represent Britain under the rules for elections which were in place at the time so they make decisions on behalf of all of us even if some of us don't agree with them. As an individual I don't support Israel but in the world Britain does.

There are a lot of laws I don't agree with but that doesn't count for much if I'm caught breaking one of them.

At least Americans have the excuse that their elections were rigged, we don't even have that.

If a law is unjust it should be broken. If a government is immoral it should be opposed. 'The individual' brought down Maggie Thatcher. To just roll over and accept your government murdering innocents, even though you disagree, is at best cowardice and at worst collaboration.

[sjwahwah]

a man (or woman) with good sense dreadnought.

[celtic 302]

Someone else who likes to dictate both sides of an argument.

One person not supporting Israel does not mean Britain does not support Israel. Even a majority of people not supporting Israel does not mean Britain does not support Israel. The government decides what Britain supports or doesn't support not individuals.

The individual and the state are two different things. A group of individuals and the state are two different things. Even every individual and the state are two different things. Tony Blair himself could personally not support Israel yet give permission for American planes flying arms to Israel to refuel here, when he makes decissions for the state he has to think for the state not as a person. Like a lawyer has to make decissions for his client not for himself and must give a client he believes guilty the best defence he can.

Grasp this concept and you will understand what I said.

(The bit in bold) The state doesnt decide what Britain supports, it decides what the State supports. The "individuals" support what the individuals support, not what the state supports.

When you said that when one person not supporting Israel doesnt mean britain doesnt support Israel, you are right. But when you said that even when the majority doesnt support Israel it doesnt mean that Britain doesnt support Israel, you are wrong. When the majoriy supports Israel, Britain supports Israel. When the majority doesnt, Britain doesnt. This is because Britain isnt the government, Britain is the publicl!!!

[sjwahwah]

(The bit in bold) The state doesnt decide what Britain supports, it decides what the State supports. The "individuals" support what the individuals support, not what the state supports.

When you said that when one person not supporting Israel doesnt mean britain doesnt support Israel, you are right. But when you said that even when the majority doesnt support Israel it doesnt mean that Britain doesnt support Israel, you are wrong. When the majoriy supports Israel, Britain supports Israel. When the majority doesnt, Britain doesnt. This is because Britain isnt the government, Britain is the publicl!!!

i wonder what it would take for people to do something about it?:roll:

[Nello]

Well thats another successful threadjack by the dynamic duo.

As for the original topic the two atomic bombs dropped on japan undoubtedly shortened the war. The Japanese culture saw surrender as the ultimate shame so it took something like an atomic weapon to force them to it. Lets not forget it was the Japanese who attacked the US first and took them into the war, Admiral Yamamoto who commanded the fleet that attacked Pearl Harbour remarked, "I fear all we have done is awaken a sleeping giant". I would say he got that pretty spot on. The treatment our prisoners received at the hands of the japanese was appalling and might I suggest that instead of feeling sorry for members of a nation who brought the atomic bomb upon themselves through their own aggresion you spare some sympathy for the ex pows and surviving servicemen who live with the brutal memories of their experience everyday as a side effect of providing the freedom we all enjoy.

For we owe them a LOT.

[celtic 302]

is dropping a nuc on someone who tortured someone not a bit OTT?

ps, who are the dynamic duo?

[sjwahwah]

there's my minnow!:Razz

[Nello]

[quote=celtic 302]is dropping a nuc on someone who tortured someone not a bit OTT?

Well as I said the Japanese attacked America and basically brought things on themselves and I put forward the point about the japanese cultural view of Surrender as the ultimate shame so it was always going to take extreme measures to force their surrender especially when the only other option was the invasion of the japanese mainland, that would have cost who knows how many untold Allied lives. To that end it was justified, this was war and it is a nasty buisness.

I dont understand all the emotional wrangling about this as it was a war for our way of life and our freedom, I dont see anyone going to Germany or Japan and complaining about the bombing of London or the treatment or our POW's but will complain about the manner in which our freedom was guarenteed.

Just one comment on the torture aspect, I served and served in conflict and saw first hand the effects of torture on aircrew in the Gulf in 91, I would happily have taken those apart with my bare hands. I also spent time with World War II veterans, including those who fought the japanese and one brave gentleman who spent time as a POW under them. He said the dropping of the bombs saved him. He was barely alive when liberated.

We fought World War II for our freedom and way of life, anything that gaurenteed that while saving Allied lives was justified in my opnion.

[Nello]

there's my minnow!:Razz

Your highly intelligent comment is noted sjwahwah, you truly are an expert.

[sjwahwah]

nope not an expert.. nor a bigot. (see thread United 93)

nello.. if you have anything else to say.. quit sending pm's.. say it where everyone else can have the pleasure of hearing your luvely comments!

[celtic 302]

the droppings off the bombs may have saved thousands of allied soldiers lives, but it killed hundreds of thousands of enemy lives. and saying that you would rather save 10000 allied troops than 100000 enemy troops is quite a sad way of looking at it... also, invading, or using nucs against, japan wasnt the only way off defeating them. if we had defeated Germany, which at the point, germany was already getting weaker, and close to defeat, japan wouldnt have lasted long. and to contradict myelf, we could just have used ordinary bombs rather than nucs. my problem with nucs in the main, is the way people die. some suffering for many years. also, i think the USA used nucs to justify the millions of dollars spent on the development of them...

[Nello]

nope not an expert.. nor a bigot. (see thread United 93)

nello.. if you have anything else to say.. quit sending pm's.. say it where everyone else can have the pleasure of hearing your luvely comments!


I would just like to point that you started referring to me as a Minnow for no apaprent reason and now seem to be a bit put off because I responded to you on the United 93 thread I started. You started insulting me first and for no apparent reason, I think it was because I started the United 93 thread which you hijacked to go on your rant against most things western. And as for you calling me a bigot perhaps I should send you copies of the letters from the 13 year old Iraqi Girl and her 8 year old brother that are sponsored by myself and some ex forces mates. I am sorry if you seem to have a problem with me for whatever reason but please feel free to post the PM I sent you (as you did with the last one) all it contains is a humourous definition of the word expert. I am not going to give you the reaction you seem to want as I dont think you are worth it, no scratch that, I KNOW you arent.

PM's are there to stop the forums getting cluttered, thats the whole point of them.

[Nello]

the droppings off the bombs may have saved thousands of allied soldiers lives, but it killed hundreds of thousands of enemy lives. and saying that you would rather save 10000 allied troops than 100000 enemy troops is quite a sad way of looking at it... also, invading, or using nucs against, japan wasnt the only way off defeating them. if we had defeated Germany, which at the point, germany was already getting weaker, and close to defeat, japan wouldnt have lasted long. and to contradict myelf, we could just have used ordinary bombs rather than nucs. my problem with nucs in the main, is the way people die. some suffering for many years. also, i think the USA used nucs to justify the millions of dollars spent on the development of them...

The whole point of War is to kill the enemy, are you saying that it would be better to not drop the bombs and not invade and just hope that japan will just give up ??, and I hate to burst your bubble but convential weapons kill in a horrific way as well, sometimes worse than nucs, the aftermath of a cluster bomb attack has to be seen to be believed, I saw that in the Gulf. The Japanese have a cultural belief that surrender is the ultimate weakness so they were never just going to give up, I dont deny that an Atomic bomb is not a pleasant way to die but then neither is drowning while trapped in the upturned hull of a battleship, and thats what happened to thousands of sailors at Pearl Harbour, do you think the Japanese give one thought to the sailors there ??

[sjwahwah]

I would just like to point that you started referring to me as a Minnow for no apaprent reason and now seem to be a bit put off because I responded to you on the United 93 thread I started. You started insulting me first and for no apparent reason, I think it was because I started the United 93 thread which you hijacked to go on your rant against most things western. And as for you calling me a bigot perhaps I should send you copies of the letters from the 13 year old Iraqi Girl and her 8 year old brother that are sponsored by myself and some ex forces mates. I am sorry if you seem to have a problem with me for whatever reason but please feel free to post the PM I sent you (as you did with the last one) all it contains is a humourous definition of the word expert. I am not going to give you the reaction you seem to want as I dont think you are worth it, no scratch that, I KNOW you arent.

PM's are there to stop the forums getting cluttered, thats the whole point of them. or sling abuse in your case.

[Nello]

Well thats easy to say on an open forum isnt it ??, why dont you post the PM like you did last time .. because all it contains is a humourous description of the word expert as you well know.

Why dont you post the PM ??, didnt stop you last time.

So dont insinuate that I have "insulted you" and go all wounded considering you openly called me a bigot on your last post, isnt that "slinging abuse" ??, I will not allow myself to be called that, I am doing something practical to help someone in hardship in the world but pray tell what are you doing ??, apart from offering your opinion on this forum ??. I find it hilarious that you can call me a bigot and then accuse me of slinging abuse.

You are now going on my ignore list, and I wish I had done it earlier.

[Lolabelle]

:confused Ok, I have a question. Did the Japanese or German's have any nuclear weapons at the time of Hiroshima? Please excuse my lack of knowledge in this area. Now if they didn't have nuc weapons, but were building them, do you think that they would NOT have used them.
(No shouting intended, just emphasis)

This comment could have already been made, but I don't have the time to read every post on a 5 billion gazillion page thread, Sorry!
Lola
PS, and don't be nasty about my ignorance and lack of knowledge, I am asking, so as to fill this very obvious void in my life and understanding of all things pertaining to the second world war.

[Dreadnought]

Well as I said the Japanese attacked America and basically brought things on themselves and I put forward the point about the japanese cultural view of Surrender as the ultimate shame so it was always going to take extreme measures to force their surrender especially when the only other option was the invasion of the japanese mainland, that would have cost who knows how many untold Allied lives. To that end it was justified, this was war and it is a nasty buisness.

This is the folly of war, the 'He started it!' argument. By that logic an Iraqi splinter group would be completely justified in setting off a nuke in London/New York/wherever because we attacked them.

If the nukes had been dropped on military targets there would not be so much revulsion for it today. But they weren't dropped on military targets. They were dropped on civilian targets. Not once, but twice. Tell all those children and women who were fried alive, who died slowly of their burns, who were blinded, who suffered cancer for years and then died, who watched their babies die in their arms, that they deserved it because a military installation was destroyed by their navy.



also, invading, or using nucs against, japan wasnt the only way off defeating them. if we had defeated Germany, which at the point, germany was already getting weaker, and close to defeat, japan wouldnt have lasted long.

Just a side point but Germany surrendered on 7th May 1945, the Japanese surrendered on 15th August 1945. Thats why VE Day is before VJ Day.

[fred]

When you said that when one person not supporting Israel doesnt mean britain doesnt support Israel, you are right. But when you said that even when the majority doesnt support Israel it doesnt mean that Britain doesnt support Israel, you are wrong. When the majoriy supports Israel, Britain supports Israel. When the majority doesnt, Britain doesnt. This is because Britain isnt the government, Britain is the publicl!!!

No Britain isn't the public Britain is the state.

The majority of people in Britain were opposed to sending troops to Iraq yet the newspapers still said "Britain sends troops to Iraq". The majority of people in Britain want a ceasefire in Lebanon yet the papers still say "Britain" blocked a UN call for a ceasefire. When the Thatcher government privatised all the state owned industries they took companies which belonged to the state and sold them to the people, if the people and the state were the same they would have been buying thier own property wouldn't they?

You have to understand that the state and the people are two different things and understand it fast because since this government came to power they have passed no less than 15 laws which attack the peoples rights and freedoms and give more power to the state. This country can go to war at any time, not on the say so of the people, not on the say so of our elected representatives in Parliament but on the say so of one man, Tony Blair, that is the law as it stands and you can argue all you want that it was the state which declared war not Britain but Britain will still be at war.

[Dreadnought]

When the Thatcher government privatised all the state owned industries they took companies which belonged to the state and sold them to the people, if the people and the state were the same they would have been buying thier own property wouldn't they?

Yes. That was the main argument against the privatisation of state owned utilities and industries, "Why should I buy what I already own?"

[celtic 302]

No Britain isn't the public Britain is the state.

The majority of people in Britain were opposed to sending troops to Iraq yet the newspapers still said "Britain sends troops to Iraq". The majority of people in Britain want a ceasefire in Lebanon yet the papers still say "Britain" blocked a UN call for a ceasefire. When the Thatcher government privatised all the state owned industries they took companies which belonged to the state and sold them to the people, if the people and the state were the same they would have been buying thier own property wouldn't they?

You have to understand that the state and the people are two different things and understand it fast because since this government came to power they have passed no less than 15 laws which attack the peoples rights and freedoms and give more power to the state. This country can go to war at any time, not on the say so of the people, not on the say so of our elected representatives in Parliament but on the say so of one man, Tony Blair, that is the law as it stands and you can argue all you want that it was the state which declared war not Britain but Britain will still be at war.

I understand perfectly well that the state and the people are two different things. thats what ive been trying to say. That the state may declare war doesnt mean that Britain does. The newspapers may say, "britain seind troops to iraq", but its the state that controls them, so the people, the real Britain, can't do much about it. and just so i dont repeat anybody, read dreadnoughts post.

[celtic 302]

If the nukes had been dropped on military targets there would not be so much revulsion for it today.

The bomb dropped on Nagaski was supposedly "justifiable", because Nagasaki was an army fort... make of it what you want.

[Gleber2]

:confused Ok, I have a question. Did the Japanese or German's have any nuclear weapons at the time of Hiroshima? Please excuse my lack of knowledge in this area. Now if they didn't have nuc weapons, but were building them, do you think that they would NOT have used them.
(No shouting intended, just emphasis)

This comment could have already been made, but I don't have the time to read every post on a 5 billion gazillion page thread, Sorry!
Lola
PS, and don't be nasty about my ignorance and lack of knowledge, I am asking, so as to fill this very obvious void in my life and understanding of all things pertaining to the second world war.

The German scientists were working on the bomb at the same time as Britain
and USA. We beat them to it. Mind you, the major brains behind the research were Jewish so maybe God helped us a little

[Kaishowing]

You may have seen a film called 'Heroes Of Telemark' sometime about the destruction of a heavy water plant in Rjukan in Norway?
That was based on the real operation 'Freshman' set up the Allies.
The plant at Rjukan was exclusively a heavy water facility, and the hydrogen enriched water was used in the production of plutonium intended for use in the Nazi atomic programme.
In February 1943 the facility was destroyed, but it had been targeted before for destruction without success in 1942.....so the allies were well aware of the Nazi atomic programme, and were trying anything to slow down their development.
The fact that the Nazi research into rockets were so far advanced was a terrible threat...but even more so had they the ability of send an atomic payload to London in a V2 or even small versions in the Doodlebugs.:eek:
Different ending perhaps!?!

http://www.stephen-stratford.co.uk/freshman.htm

[Lolabelle]

The German scientists were working on the bomb at the same time as Britain
and USA. We beat them to it. Mind you, the major brains behind the research were Jewish so maybe God helped us a little

Thanks Gleber2, I thought it was more than likely some kind of weapons race, it usually seems to go that way.

[pultneytooner]

The German scientists were working on the bomb at the same time as Britain
and USA. We beat them to it. Mind you, the major brains behind the research were Jewish so maybe God helped us a little
With a little help from some nazi scientists who should have been tried for warcrimes but got a free run in the states to help with their nuclear developement program.

[pultneytooner]

Pultneytooner,knowing your love o' music.This thread grabbed me not for the politics or anything but music.

When someone mentions Enola gay I don't first think of atom bombs but of a song by Orchaestral Manoeuvres in the Dark....a wee dinky pop song.

Ma reason for postin' was cause on the other side U2 saw the exhibition on the horrors of Hiroshima called "The Unforgettable Fire".They ended up writing a song and named their new album after it(1984)

I know,not political,but thought I would post a wee musical banter!!!!:lol: :lol:I used to listen to o.m.d years ago, cedric, that was on of the songs I liked but was oblivious to what the song was really about.

[crayola]

i don't use anything off the nhs anymore... i use strictly herbal & chiropractic medicine and I don't eat rubbish. at least you know what your gettin. great your in school... well when you get out.. see the world.. travel... ALOT.. meet people.. learn things.. they can't teach you this in school or out of a book. and find out for yourself what you need to do for yourself and others... (editing.. forgot one other important thing.. learn how to survive.. they don't teach you THAT in school.. learn how to do basic survival skills.. grow your own food, medicine, energy.. basics.. just basics... what I mean is in school they teach that you need to do well so that you can become a worker bee in something most likely very or slightly unethical so you can earn "money" to buy what you need... self-sufficiency on any scale is a step in the right direction.. keep that in mind)Wooooooohoooooooo another Earth Mother on the Org. You into any other naturals?

What do you do for spiritual? We used to debate the spiritual but it's gone kinda quiet lately.

Where you been travelling girl? You been to Mother Russia and her freed satellite states yet? That's where the ntural revolution's gonna come from. And Japan's backlash too. None of this Middle Eastern or Third World sideshows except maybe India and South Africa or maybe Argentina. The Third World has no pwer, no money, no influence and no ambition.

Dinna worry aboot fred and golach and gleber2 and 'at lot. Yons is like electrons, all talk and no action. The future is XX

[Gleber2]

The future is XX

In your dreams pseud. XY or nowhere.

[crayola]

In your dreams pseud. XY or nowhere.In my reality,dreamer. Girls have been doing better than boys at school for years and they're the majority in further and higher education today. The future's bright, the future's xx

[canuck]

You been to Mother Russia and her freed satellite states yet? That's where the ntural revolution's gonna come from. And Japan's backlash too.

Dinna worry aboot fred and golach and gleber2 and 'at lot. Yons is like electrons, all talk and no action. The future is XX

I disagree, at least with the source of the new order.

I think that the emerging world will come from within Western Society itself. It will happen because the skills and talents of women so long left dormant by all societies, will be able to flourish in the western culture and used to build a better world. XX is the pre-cursor to a new world order. XX will be the component that leads to a new synergy, one where peace will be the instrument of healing. I don't propose that this be in a vacuum apart from the components that have served the world well through the generations. XY is integral to a workable solution. But so is XX and that is the gift of the Western world to the new order of things.

[Gleber2]

In my reality,dreamer. Girls have been doing better than boys at school for years and they're the majority in further and higher education today. The future's bright, the future's xx

Not worth arguing about. The future will show the truth. As long as the lady seeks supremacy she will never be equal.

[darkie@dreamtilt.com.au]

In my reality,dreamer. Girls have been doing better than boys at school for years and they're the majority in further and higher education today. The future's bright, the future's xx http://forum.caithness.org/images/icons/icon6.gif I think the girls are smarter because the boys would rather eye the girl up than listen to some old guy talk or nowadays eye up the young teachers http://forum.caithness.org/images/icons/icon6.gif

[j4bberw0ck]

But so is XX and that is the gift of the Western world to the new order of things.

The future's bright, the future's xx
I suppose there is that possibility, but presumably only after some poor long-suffering XY's have done the dirty bits like dealing with the radical Islamists and others who actively prevent women playing a part in anything in their countries, and who happily execute and torture them for all sorts of reasons we'd consider trivial or massively unjust?

The population consists of male and female. Deal with it.


People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf

Well, no, George Orwell isn't actually posting here :lol: but it's a truth worth remembering; especially for a generation (or generations) so separated from the reality of war on their own doorstep that they presume to judge decisions taken more than 60 years ago, in a different world, with different ideals, different standards and the reality of millions of deaths at the forefront of the minds of the decision-takers.


No, your government does. The Government is not the country
That's quite true. There's a whole lot of garbage talked about the nature of democracy and what the chatterers usually miss is that the system of Government in this country is a delegative democracy. Once every five years you get your chance to cast a vote for the bunch of bandits and liars you believe can best run the country. If you choose not to vote, hard luck; morally, you forfeit your right to criticise.

The elected government is then handed the job of running the country as it sees fit for their term of office. They have no obligation to consult "democratically". At the end of their term you get another chance to decide based on performance and future promises.

[sjwahwah]

Once every five years you get your chance to cast a vote for the bunch of bandits and liars you believe can best run the country. If you choose not to vote, hard luck; morally, you forfeit your right to criticise.



Wrong. That means we can criticise those who DID vote. [lol]

[j4bberw0ck]

Perhaps that says more than you intended about your view of the world....... [lol]

[sjwahwah]

no actually I've seen George Carlin one too many times this week.. that's all![lol]

[j4bberw0ck]

Hmm........ I must be leading too sheltered a life. I had to Google "George Carlin"....... oh well. The world's full of comedians. Some of them in here http://www.teddies.be/Forum/images/smiles/oops.gif [lol]

[Gleber2]

. The world's full of comedians. Some of them in here

Welcome welcome.

[j4bberw0ck]

:lol: [lol] Why thank you, sir / ma'am / person (please select appropriate appellation). I feel quite "at home" already.

[sjwahwah]

Hmm........ I must be leading too sheltered a life. I had to Google "George Carlin"....... oh well. The world's full of comedians. Some of them in here http://www.teddies.be/Forum/images/smiles/oops.gif [lol]

you can try google's video site for some of his stuff.. btw

[Gleber2]

[quote=j4bberw0ck]:lol: [lol] Why thank you, sir / ma'am / person (please select appropriate appellation). quote]

What, are you one of these sexists.?

[j4bberw0ck]

Do you think I am? :D

Edit: Or should I say, do you, sir, think I am? :lol:

[canuck]

Gleber2 works very hard to keep the XX and XY categories organized.

[Gleber2]

Do you think I am? :D

Edit: Or should I say, do you, sir, think I am? :lol:

The fact that you have tried to ascertain my gender makes one think that it matters to you which would make you sexist, would it not.

[DrSzin]

Hmm, did we all miss yesterday's 61st anniversary of the bombing of Hiroshima without commemorating - or even mentioning it - on here?

I spent much of yesterday thinking the date rang a bell, but I have only just remembered why. :o

[Dreadnought]

If you choose not to vote, hard luck; morally, you forfeit your right to criticise.


Not necessarily true. If you go to the polling station, but write 'Deliberately spoiled due to lack of a suitable candidate' across your polling slip and then put it in the ballot box, than you have exercised your democratic right to withhold your vote from the candidates. Which means you still have the right to criticise.

[j4bberw0ck]

The fact that you have tried to ascertain my gender makes one think that it matters to you which would make you sexist, would it not. and
Gleber, I didn't try........ though try, if you will, to imagine how little I care. Actually, an Orger was kind enough to supply the information :lol: .

Perhaps you're wanting to hijack this thread into a "Who is Gleber, what is he / she / it" thread? Are you so uncertain? [lol]

[Dreadnought]

Gleber's avatar appears to be the Green Man...

[Gleber2]

and
Gleber, I didn't try........ though try, if you will, to imagine how little I care. Actually, an Orger was kind enough to supply the information :lol: .

Perhaps you're wanting to hijack this thread into a "Who is Gleber, what is he / she / it" thread? Are you so uncertain? [lol]

I imagine you care as little as I. Not at all uncertain and have no desire to further hijack this or any other thread. I would imagine, however, that there are not many people on this forum who haven't made up their minds as to what I am.

[canuck]

Hmm, did we all miss yesterday's 61st anniversary of the bombing of Hiroshima without commemorating - or even mentioning it - on here?

I spent much of yesterday thinking the date rang a bell, but I have only just remembered why. :o

Point taken, we are way off the topic here. In answer to your question, yes I was aware of the date yesterday and honoured it in a manner appropriate to my personal expression.

[golach]

[quote=j4bberw0ck] [lol] Why thank you, sir / ma'am / person (please select appropriate appellation). quote]

What, are you one of these sexists.?
I think, j4bberw0ck is a polite Orger, who did not wish to offend you Gleber, as if anyone could [disgust]

[Gleber2]

[quote=Gleber2]
I think, j4bberw0ck is a polite Orger[disgust]

Never suggested otherwise.

[golach]

[quote=golach]

Never suggested otherwise.
If you infered or asked if I was a sexist then I would consider that rude

[canuck]

Just standing here in my role as intermediary waiting for Gleber2's reply.

[Gleber2]

[quote=Gleber2]
If you infered or asked if I was a sexist then I would consider that rude

Some people have a sense of humour developed to a point where they can sense humour and don't take offence when none is intended but see the joke and laugh.

[canuck]

Ever notice how all three of us have gold in our avatars?

[crayola]

I disagree, at least with the source of the new order.Too right, and no-one else commented on my random list of countries with no connection other than the order they appeared in my brain. I was talking garbage just like everyone else who predicts the future


I think that the emerging world will come from within Western Society itself. It will happen because the skills and talents of women so long left dormant by all societies, will be able to flourish in the western culture and used to build a better world. XX is the pre-cursor to a new world order. XX will be the component that leads to a new synergy, one where peace will be the instrument of healing. I don't propose that this be in a vacuum apart from the components that have served the world well through the generations. XY is integral to a workable solution. But so is XX and that is the gift of the Western world to the new order of things.No argument there, but there's a world outside the western world and the liberation of the worldwide xx has to come from within. It can be seeded and encouraged by observation of what's occurring in the west but it can't be forced upon them, however benignly. Time is of the essence and patience is the essence of time. We in the west have to lead by example but we will have to wait until the seeds are sown and germination begins from within.

[crayola]

I suppose there is that possibility, but presumably only after some poor long-suffering XY's have done the dirty bits like dealing with the radical Islamists and others who actively prevent women playing a part in anything in their countries, and who happily execute and torture them for all sorts of reasons we'd consider trivial or massively unjust?

The population consists of male and female. Deal with it.Or "get over it". A common response of the male ego. The film crew on "glamour shoots" used those two expressions ad nauseum when they "abused their privileges" shall we say, and the connotations haunt me to this day.[disgust]

Have you considered the possibility that the dirty bits will no longer be necessary in a world ruled by the xx, the world that almost became a little more distant when I went through to Edinburgh for a meeting at lunchtime today? Yes, your local blue witch was close to gaining worldwide infamy by running down the man who cloned Dolly the Sheep. He walked out in front of me without looking. Like father like daughter. Baaaaaaaaa

[canuck]

Too right, and no-one else commented on my random list of countries with no connection other than the order they appeared in my brain. I was talking garbage just like everyone else who predicts the future

No argument there, but there's a world outside the western world and the liberation of the worldwide xx has to come from within. It can be seeded and encouraged by observation of what's occurring in the west but it can't be forced upon them, however benignly. Time is of the essence and patience is the essence of time. We in the west have to lead by example but we will have to wait until the seeds are sown and germination begins from within.


We cannot predict the future, but we do have a penchant to talk about it. Some people place a giant pall over the present with their attitudes of doom and gloom in their anticipation of what is to become. I prefer to find avenues of hope and thus create a more positive mood for the present.

I truly haven't the faintest idea how the liberation of the women of the world will happen. I can only suggest that it will begin in the west because we have the education, the leisure, the influence and the will to begin the movement. I know that it can not be imposed, even benignly. And like you say, time is of the essence. But I have very little patience mainly because I am not sure that the world in its present state has a lot of time to be waiting for the new order to emerge.

I think that we all, both XX and XY, need to be about the solution by preparing the seedbeds and protecting the germination in its early stages. And we need to be about it now.

[sjwahwah]

We cannot predict the future, but we do have a penchant to talk about it. Some people place a giant pall over the present with their attitudes of doom and gloom in their anticipation of what is to become. I prefer to find avenues of hope and thus create a more positive mood for the present.

I truly haven't the faintest idea how the liberation of the women of the world will happen. I can only suggest that it will begin in the west because we have the education, the leisure, the influence and the will to begin the movement. I know that it can not be imposed, even benignly. And like you say, time is of the essence. But I have very little patience mainly because I am not sure that the world in its present state has a lot of time to be waiting for the new order to emerge.

I think that we all, both XX and XY, need to be about the solution by preparing the seedbeds and protecting the germination in its early stages. And we need to be about it now.
sorry canuck.. but, what's with all the "new world order" stuff. you scared me yesturday saying it.. you're scaring me today with it and speaking of that....


We cannot predict the future, but we do have a penchant to talk about it. Some people place a giant pall over the present with their attitudes of doom and gloom in their anticipation of what is to become. I prefer to find avenues of hope and thus create a more positive mood for the present.
how will we laugh tomorrow if we cannot smile today???

[canuck]

I suppose there is that possibility, but presumably only after some poor long-suffering XY's have done the dirty bits like dealing with the radical Islamists and others who actively prevent women playing a part in anything in their countries, and who happily execute and torture them for all sorts of reasons we'd consider trivial or massively unjust?

The population consists of male and female. Deal with it.



A solution which involves first doing the "dirty bits" will only perpetuate the system. There will never emerge a healthy place from that approach. It has to be a change from within that just radically alters the way people of the world relate to one another.

I wish I could deal with the fact that the population consists of male and female. I wish I could get people to believe in the strengths they all have to contribute. But the old order won't let me. The old order ignores the potential of women. The old order is ordered to protect the order which it has ordained.

[canuck]

sorry canuck.. but, what's with all the "new world order" stuff. you scared me yesturday saying it.. you're scaring me today with it and speaking of that....


how will we laugh tomorrow if we cannot smile today???

Sorry, I never meant to scare anyone.

I was referring to crayola's post from 6 days ago, #102, where she talks about the natural revolution. The word revolution is not in my comfort zone. Emerging is more my style. Whichever pathway gets one there, the result is what I call the new order, a new approach to living life. I guess I am not one to totally abandon the truths, the stengths, the learning of the past, so I don't go with revolution.

Also, sorry if I have appeared not to be smiling. No one seems to take me seriously when I go with the lighter side of myself.

[JAWS]

We cannot predict the future, but we do have a penchant to talk about it. Some people place a giant pall over the present with their attitudes of doom and gloom in their anticipation of what is to become. I prefer to find avenues of hope and thus create a more positive mood for the present.

But I have very little patience mainly because I am not sure that the world in its present state has a lot of time to be waiting for the new order to emerge. canuck, to some people for every 'Silver Lining' there has to be a 'Big Black Cloud'. If people cannot be made to think of everything as a forthcoming disaster people become happy with their lot. Such people do not rise up and demand great change because they see no need for it. They have no fear of seeing things continue as they are with slight adjustments as the need for them arise.
This certainly is not the way some people wish things to proceed. They wish people to become dissatisfied with the way things are and suspicious of the reasons behind them. That way they think people will rise up and overturn the current system and replace it with something more to their liking.

If you want to know why the phrase "new world order" should cause some people to become disturbed, just try Googling the phrase and see what sort of sites you are presented with. The sites you find should explain all.

[gleeber]

I truly haven't the faintest idea how the liberation of the women of the world will happen.
I think that we all, both XX and XY, need to be about the solution by preparing the seedbeds and protecting the germination in its early stages. And we need to be about it now.

The thing is, who is holding women prisoner?
Was it Germaine Greer who said, liberation for women will begin with a realisation at the kitchen sink? If it was only that easy. That realisation led to radacilism and hatred of men.
Men were trapped too, and still are, just like women, by an internal authority. That's where negotiations for liberation will have to begin.

[j4bberw0ck]

Or "get over it". A common response of the male ego.
No, I said (and I meant) "deal with it". Childish and ultimately self-defeating sexism is all you offer.


The film crew on "glamour shoots" used those two expressions ad nauseum when they "abused their privileges" shall we say, and the connotations haunt me to this day.[disgust]
You should (if only out of courtesy) be a little careful about lumping all people - even if they're only males - together. I know nothing about your "glamour shoots" or the film crew. You were presumably doing some sort of job you were paid for and so had the same options as any other employee; act against the things which offended you, ignore it, or leave. And believe me, I know what I'm talking about in this regard.


Have you considered the possibility that the dirty bits will no longer be necessary in a world ruled by the xx
Yes. I think there are two points here. First, your use of the word "ruled" is interesting; at best, thoughtless, at worst, concerning. Second, my point was that before xx can achieve very much, certain things need to be done. It seems unlikely, on balance, that our local blue witch will single-handedly persuade the radical mullahs that they should allow women to express themselves as they wish. Enter the much-maligned XYs to prepare the ground. Witchery or no, several million years of evolution can't be turned on its head overnight.

[j4bberw0ck]

I wish I could deal with the fact that the population consists of male and female. I wish I could get people to believe in the strengths they all have to contribute. But the old order won't let me. The old order ignores the potential of women. The old order is ordered to protect the order which it has ordained.

Are you referring to the churches and female bishops, or is your point wider than that? Sorry, I'm a little slow today and very unclear as to what you mean by "the old order". :)

[sjwahwah]

We cannot predict the future, but we do have a penchant to talk about it. Some people place a giant pall over the present with their attitudes of doom and gloom in their anticipation of what is to become. I prefer to find avenues of hope and thus create a more positive mood for the present.


how will we laugh tomorrow when we cannot smile today???

Also, sorry if I have appeared not to be smiling. No one seems to take me seriously when I go with the lighter side of myself.
this is hardly what I meant by my post. I mean how do people around the world who are under much suffering and living in fear NOT anticipate gloom and doom and how do they just be happy and positive. it might be simply said in Canada, "ya ay"?.. you don't have all that much to worry about until the North American Union of course and then you'll get your new world order.

some weigh up what's happened though history AND what is going on presently and don't see too many avenues of hope for ourselves or our children here or elsewhere on this planet in future unless we do a little more than positive thinking today. I'm not saying myself nor anyone has "hope" of course we do... or we would not be motivated to do anything.... but, everybody has their choice... ignore what's going on or just think well it doesn't effect me directly so I'll just be happy and positive about everything and it will turn out all right for me. that's called denial and lack of empathy. but, I think a little more than that needs to be done and I don't think we can afford to wait around for our politicians to do it.

my point was if we can not raise awareness and fix what's right today... what will the future be like???

but, tying in with the thread is what is going on NOW... nuclear weapons being used in the middle east right now in Lebanon and Iraq.. on civilians, soldiers, women, children.. even babies!!! In Iraq the depleted uranium radiation equals that of 250,000 Nagasaki bombs! After the last Gulf war they report 67% of children that are born in the former battle regions are born with some type of birth defect from all the depleted uranium WE used over there and continue to do so now... what isn't gloomy about that and what will these childrens lives be like in future? btw... Canada is the LARGEST exporter of uranium.

[canuck]

Are you referring to the churches and female bishops, or is your point wider than that? Sorry, I'm a little slow today and very unclear as to what you mean by "the old order". :)

No, I was refering to the wider world. (I know the church system, I live in the church system.) I meant the way the world organizes itself for the good of all the world. That order worked once (I know that is debatable, but lets pretend that it functioned). Yet the structures and the forms once put in place for people and nations to relate to one another just don't work now. In our passion to protect that which once was, hoping if we do the old stuff better that we will be okay, we loose the good things emerging. All of our energies and resources go to supporting an old way that just doesn't work anymore.

I know that the word oil is seen as the reason for Bush's foreign policy. Rather, I think that the administration is trying desparately to protect the old order. Oil just makes a nice public face to work behind.

We really do get off topic don't we? I suppose that is the beauty of such a free flowing form of communication. The thread started with a discussion around Enola Gay. The world has changed in 61 years because of that project. And the world will continue to change until we can live in peace.

[canuck]

I mean how do people around the world who are under much suffering and living in fear NOT anticipate gloom and doom and how do they just be happy and positive.

btw... Canada is the LARGEST exporter of uranium.

It was the doom and gloomsters of the org that I was meaning back there.

Yes, I know that Canada is the largest exporter of uranium.

[Gleber2]

It was the doom and gloomsters of the org that I was meaning back there.



Yes I freely admit to being a gloom and doomster. The past and present does not create much hope for anyone's future and instead of getting better with increased awareness it seems to be getting worse. I am a realist who, although he retains a degree of hope, does not give our children much of a chance on a planet that has gone past the point of no return. Look after your own backyard, keep your own kharma clean and maybe you'll have a chance at the next stage.

[Cedric Farthsbottom III]

Yes I freely admit to being a gloom and doomster. The past and present does not create much hope for anyone's future and instead of getting better with increased awareness it seems to be getting worse. I am a realist who, although he retains a degree of hope, does not give our children much of a chance on a planet that has gone past the point of no return. Look after your own backyard, keep your own kharma clean and maybe you'll have a chance at the next stage.

Agree wi' ye Gleber 2.Bring yir kids up in the best way ye can and the future looks bright.There is a lot of good things left in this world and the kids will bring it through that we all have.

Its very deep this thread has turned from its original from pultneytooner,but it has still opened my eyes from diffirent peoples perspectives.

[pultneytooner]

Agree wi' ye Gleber 2.Bring yir kids up in the best way ye can and the future looks bright.There is a lot of good things left in this world and the kids will bring it through that we all have.

Its very deep this thread has turned from its original from pultneytooner,but it has still opened my eyes from diffirent peoples perspectives. The thread has changed and evolved.
It's just like a normal conversation, thread drift is cool by me.:)

[Cedric Farthsbottom III]

The thread has changed and evolved.
It's just like a normal conversation, thread drift is cool by me.:)

Pultneytooner,yer true in what ye say.The best thing of this forum of ours is at the start ye might be talkin aboot one thing but the end aboot another.

I feel sometimes that folk get banned for nothing and others get away wi' onythin':lol:

[crayola]

No, I said (and I meant) "deal with it". Childish and ultimately self-defeating sexism is all you offer.Have you ever been on a course on managing your emotions? They're really good. They cover the psychology of distress, and they help you to understand when and why you use expressions like "deal with it", and what's going on inside your brain when you classify others as childish. They teach you what to eat to stay healthy and be calm and cool all the time. I can thoroughly recommend one in Glasgow if you're interested.


You should (if only out of courtesy) be a little careful about lumping all people - even if they're only males - together. I know nothing about your "glamour shoots" or the film crew. You were presumably doing some sort of job you were paid for and so had the same options as any other employee; act against the things which offended you, ignore it, or leave. And believe me, I know what I'm talking about in this regard.You've gotten me confused. Are you claiming to know about employment law or the glamour industry?


Yes. I think there are two points here. First, your use of the word "ruled" is interesting; at best, thoughtless, at worst, concerning. Second, my point was that before xx can achieve very much, certain things need to be done. It seems unlikely, on balance, that our local blue witch will single-handedly persuade the radical mullahs that they should allow women to express themselves as they wish. Enter the much-maligned XYs to prepare the ground. Witchery or no, several million years of evolution can't be turned on its head overnight.I think you might be misunderstanding what I'm saying. Preparation of ground by XY's isn't what's needed here. The pressure from change needs to come from the XX's inside the oppressed communities.

I think this thread has evolved too far now. We went from bombs to psychology via sexism and other bad stuff.

[canuck]

Agree wi' ye Gleber 2.Bring yir kids up in the best way ye can and the future looks bright.There is a lot of good things left in this world and the kids will bring it through that we all have.

Its very deep this thread has turned from its original from pultneytooner,but it has still opened my eyes from diffirent peoples perspectives.

Cedric, are we reading the same words from Gleber2? I don't understand him as you do at all. Maybe his plea "to not be misunderstood" got through to you, but it sure didn't get through to me. An XY thing I guess.

Gleber2 I don't agree with you as I read you. Nothing new in that statement. Should I ever change my mind, I'll make sure that you are the first to know. But don't keep the light on waiting for that day.

[Cedric Farthsbottom III]

Cedric, are we reading the same words from Gleber2? I don't understand him as you do at all. Maybe his plea "to not be misunderstood" got through to you, but it sure didn't get through to me. An XY thing I guess.

Gleber2 I don't agree with you as I read you. Nothing new in that statement. Should I ever change my mind, I'll make sure that you are the first to know. But don't keep the light on waiting for that day.

Canuck,I'm not an XY.I m a guy in Caithness trying to bring up my kids,with Obiron,to make them appreciate the best things in life.To appreciate the best in all life and to see the good in their days.Their too young now to see if it matters but a few years down the line I know I'm gonnae be proud of them!!!:D

[canuck]

If you want to know why the phrase "new world order" should cause some people to become disturbed, just try Googling the phrase and see what sort of sites you are presented with. The sites you find should explain all.

You are correct JAWS, thank you. I did the googling and indeed New World Order does convey something very different from what I was getting at.



The thing is, who is holding women prisoner?
Was it Germaine Greer who said, liberation for women will begin with a realisation at the kitchen sink? If it was only that easy. That realisation led to radacilism and hatred of men.
Men were trapped too, and still are, just like women, by an internal authority. That's where negotiations for liberation will have to begin.

Yes, I agree. But what you suggest is so foreign to the way the world works now that much work will be necessary to achieve an inner liberation that is effective for the whole of society.

[canuck]

Canuck,I'm not an XY.I m a guy in Caithness trying to bring up my kids,with Obiron,to make them appreciate the best things in life.To appreciate the best in all life and to see the good in their days.Their too young now to see if it matters but a few years down the line I know I'm gonnae be proud of them!!!:D

And I totally agree with you. I just don't see how what you have written is the same thing that Gleber2 is saying.

[crayola]

but, tying in with the thread is what is going on NOW... nuclear weapons being used in the middle east right now in Lebanon and Iraq.. on civilians, soldiers, women, children.. even babies!!! In Iraq the depleted uranium radiation equals that of 250,000 Nagasaki bombs! Crikey sjwahwah, I know that massaging of data is an important part of an activist's armoury, but do you really not understand the difference between a conventional explosive in a depleted-uranium tin can with a pointy nose and a nuclear explosion? Get a lesson quick girl or you'll be ripped to shrapnel by anyone with an ounce of understanding of the subject.

Where's szin when he's needed?

[Cedric Farthsbottom III]

And I totally agree with you. I just don't see how what you have written is the same thing that Gleber2 is saying.

I quoted one of Gleber2 posts,not what he had said before.Sometimes I agree and sometimes not.If an orger says something I relate to then I will reply.:D

[sjwahwah]

Crikey sjwahwah, I know that massaging of data is an important part of an activist's armoury, but do you really not understand the difference between a conventional explosive in a depleted-uranium tin can with a pointy nose and a nuclear explosion? Get a lesson quick girl or you'll be ripped to shrapnel by anyone with an ounce of understanding of the subject.

Where's szin when he's needed?

the radiation crayola.. the amount of radiation?!?

and besides we've had this conversation with ex-Army already... see depleted uranium munitions thread. Ex-Army had nae clue as to even what was in the munitions he was using as far as I could make out and and what he says he does know he ain't tellin... that answers my questions. look up Dr. Doug Rokke.

[BLACK DOG]

:eek: Radiation - Nuclear -Atomic - Grrrrrrrrrr8 STUFF!

Lets face it where would we be without it !
Thurso and indeed Caithness wouldn't be what it is today.
Orgers would be talking about sheep , tatties 'n' turnips !

[j4bberw0ck]

Have you ever been on a course on managing your emotions? They're really good. They cover the psychology of distress, and they help you to understand when and why you use expressions like "deal with it", and what's going on inside your brain when you classify others as childish. They teach you what to eat to stay healthy and be calm and cool all the time. I can thoroughly recommend one in Glasgow if you're interested.
Thank you for your concern. What a lovely start to the morning! Someone who cares! http://www.teddies.be/Forum/images/smiles/taetschel.gif



You've gotten me confused. Are you claiming to know about employment law or the glamour industry?
Sorry. Actually I was referring to the experience of finding oneself in a job, and marginalised in some way - and of dealing with it. Oh rats, there's that expression again. Terribly sorry. Deep breathing, all together now, one................ two.................. http://www.teddies.be/Forum/images/smiles/undwech.gif

[gleeber]

Yes, I agree. But what you suggest is so foreign to the way the world works now that much work will be necessary to achieve an inner liberation that is effective for the whole of society.

Glebers last post takes us to the heart (and soul) of the problem that concerns all of us when atomic warfare is mentioned.
Ever since archeologists unearthed the first burial chamber, it has become apparent that human beings belief in Gods and afterlife has been around for a long time.
Not only does Gleber use his vision to see the future but he also uses it to suggest there are other levels of existance where his actions in this life will be taken into account in the next. Does that notion ring any bells?
The doom scenario, "the end of the world is nigh" is recorded in every holy book since the beginning of time. Its a human trait which has become more probable, ever since the blast that obliterated Hiroshima occured 60 years ago.
There's a certain inevitability in Glebers post, and although I see a similar inevitability Canucks posts, although she's more hopeful, I suspect both scenarios are powered by the personal religious beliefs they both hold.
That doesnt mean it's going to happen though.
My own faith lies in the goodness of the human animal to overcome the challenges before us.
Freud opened a door over 100 years ago and that door wont shut even though some of you think he was a fraud or barking up the wrong tree. He was warped and egotistical in his contact with people but his idea that the individual is a series of unconscious, as well as conscious drives and instincts is beyond dispute.
Its easier to replace those deep and dark motives hiding in the corners of our personalities with some religion or God rather than delve and become aware of the things that make us how we are.
Einstien explained the outside world and we all see the power that is released when his ideas are taken seriously.
Freud believed his new science would equip the individual to tackle the world in a different way. I think he may have been right.
PS. Freud had an "end of the world is nigh" thing too. He called it the death instinct.;)

[j4bberw0ck]

My own faith lies in the goodness of the human animal to overcome the challenges before us.

I'd add to that only the word "ingenuity". Well said, gleeber.

[pultneytooner]

:eek: Radiation - Nuclear -Atomic - Grrrrrrrrrr8 STUFF!

Lets face it where would we be without it !
Thurso and indeed Caithness wouldn't be what it is today.
Orgers would be talking about sheep , tatties 'n' turnips !
And that would be sooooo baaahhhhd would it?
If it wasn't for dounreay we'd all be a bunch of bucktoothed inbreds making moonshine in them thar hills.
All hail dounreay for we all took a leap in intelligence when you arived.

[Gleber2]

Weel Gleeber, are we reaching a point of agreement after fifty years? We might not be eye to eye but getting there.:D

[DrSzin]

nuclear weapons being used in the middle east right now in Lebanon and Iraq.. on civilians, soldiers, women, children.. even babies!!!Should I respond to this somewhat inflammatory post? I think I should just to clear the air a little.

Most people would not describe DU weapons as nuclear weapons. They contain uranium - just like the bomb that was dropped on Hiroshima on August 6, 1945 - but there are huge differences. Here are a few of them, elaborated in a very simple-minded fashion:
The destructive power of the Hiroshima bomb came from the splitting of the uranium nucleus into two lighter nuclei, plus neutrons and other radiation - aka nuclear fission. An enormous amount of energy is released in the fission process because the resulting light nuclei have higher binding energies than the parent uranium nucleus. This energy was stored in the uranium nucleus which is held together by the strong nuclear force. Hence the name nuclear weapon. The explosive release of nuclear energy creates an enormous firebomb which gives the weapon its godawful destructive power. It also leaves behind long-lived radioactive byproducts and gives off huge amounts of "radiation" of various sorts. It's all very nasty...
The idea behind weapons containing depleted uranium (DU) is very different. DU is very heavy and very hard, so it does more damage in the simple way that heavy and hard things always do. They are hard to stop, and they pierce armour. DU is used to make bullets and shells. In this case the DU is the core of the shell; in simple terms it is the shell - it's not just the pointy tip. DU is also pyrophoric, it burns easily at room temperature, and it burns and explodes once inside its target. This leaves behind the infamous radioactive DU dust that is of great concern. DU is also (alledgedly?) used in the casing for smart bombs, cruise missiles, and perhaps other weapons. Note that DU weapons do not release energy from the nucleus. Their extraordinary effectiveness comes from their kinetic energy (via their heaviness and high speed), and from chemical energy released in self-burning or by conventional chemical explosives. So DU weapons are clearly not nuclear weapons in the usual sense.Is it therefore incorrect to say that DU weapons are nuclear weapons? I would "yes, it is incorrect" simply because DU weapons release essentially no nuclear energy when used, and no nuclear processes take place during that time. It's perhaps possible to make the opposite case because DU weapons leave behind lots of uranium (obviously!), and this is radioactive. But I think that's pushing semantics to the limit.

DU is also chemically toxic, and I must admit that I don't know whether the toxicity or radioactive danger is worse. I would guess there are experts reading this who are cringing at my naive attempts to explain all this. :o


In Iraq the depleted uranium radiation equals that of 250,000 Nagasaki bombs! After the last Gulf war they report 67% of children that are born in the former battle regions are born with some type of birth defect from all the depleted uranium WE used over there and continue to do so now... what isn't gloomy about that and what will these childrens lives be like in future? btw... Canada is the LARGEST exporter of uranium.Where did you get the birth-defect figure of 67%? I Googled for a while but the highest figure I found was 3%. Perhaps I was looking in the wrong place.

Also, what is the justification for your claim that "in Iraq the depleted uranium radiation equals that of 250,000 Nagasaki bombs"? I'm sure that that the explosive power was nowhere near that level, and you are clearly not claiming that anyway. It's also clear that the amount of DU used in Iraq is far higher than the 64kg of enriched uranium used in the Hiroshima bomb. Perhaps you are claiming that about 15,000 tonnes of DU were used in weapons in Iraq - that's roughly 250,000 times as much uranium as in the Hiroshima bomb. (The Nagasaki bomb was plutonium-based.) But that's not the same thing. Uranium 238 has a half-life of nearly 5 billion years so it'll be a long time before most of it emits anything! Yes, I know, that's not the point. The point is that there are pooloads of the stuff in Iraq (and elsewhere), it's a radioactive alpha-emitter and therefore very dangerous if ingested, it's chemically toxic, and it's gonna take forever to clean up the mess. In the meantime people will suffer, and some will suffer dreadfully.

DU weapons are nasty - make no mistake about it - but they ain't nuclear explosives. Have they been classified and banned as WMDs? "Yes", say many. "No", say the US military. Sigh...

Should they be banned? I like to think the world might see a way to ban them, but I can't see it happening soon. Please, please, please can we have a sensible Democrat in the White House next time?

Finally, the above is essentially a brain-dump and may contain a few errors. Feel free to point them out. I've also been lazy about quoting references. Yell if you need some.

[canuck]

Glebers last post takes us to the heart (and soul) of the problem that concerns all of us when atomic warfare is mentioned.
Ever since archeologists unearthed the first burial chamber, it has become apparent that human beings belief in Gods and afterlife has been around for a long time.
Not only does Gleber use his vision to see the future but he also uses it to suggest there are other levels of existance where his actions in this life will be taken into account in the next. Does that notion ring any bells?
The doom scenario, "the end of the world is nigh" is recorded in every holy book since the beginning of time. Its a human trait which has become more probable, ever since the blast that obliterated Hiroshima occured 60 years ago.
There's a certain inevitability in Glebers post, and although I see a similar inevitability Canucks posts, although she's more hopeful, I suspect both scenarios are powered by the personal religious beliefs they both hold.
That doesnt mean it's going to happen though.
My own faith lies in the goodness of the human animal to overcome the challenges before us.
Freud opened a door over 100 years ago and that door wont shut even though some of you think he was a fraud or barking up the wrong tree. He was warped and egotistical in his contact with people but his idea that the individual is a series of unconscious, as well as conscious drives and instincts is beyond dispute.
Its easier to replace those deep and dark motives hiding in the corners of our personalities with some religion or God rather than delve and become aware of the things that make us how we are.
Einstien explained the outside world and we all see the power that is released when his ideas are taken seriously.
Freud believed his new science would equip the individual to tackle the world in a different way. I think he may have been right.
PS. Freud had an "end of the world is nigh" thing too. He called it the death instinct.;)

gleeber, I agree with you, and Gleber2 writes that he agrees with you, but still there is a huge disconnect between G2 and myself. Maybe it is not so much that I disagree with G2, but rather I just don’t understand.

You are absolutely correct when you suggest that what I say is powered by my personal religious beliefs. And what I say is going to be coloured big time by the fact that I do not have a great deal of knowledge about the subjects of nuclear warfare and international politics. (On that front, I cannot thank the orgers enough for the all the learning I have enjoyed over the past 2 years. I agree with Cedric, "who needs a newspaper anymore, not even the National Inquirer.")

In regards to the idea of a divine reward or punishment based on the nature of one’s life on earth, that is not what I read out of the interpretation of the Biblical text. (But I know that it is a common belief. It is just not mine.) The beauty of this earthly life should of itself be motivation enough to strive for peace, justice and mercy. And so I can affirm gleeber’s interpretation of the divine as the will power (ingenuity) of humanity to get it right. I just happen to believe that there is a component of life that is beyond the chemistry that makes up the physical body, the chemistry that is also the emotions, the instincts, the drives to live in harmony. I call it spiritual. Although I have perhaps not experienced it in quite the profound way some orgers have, I still believe in it. That belief lets me at least listen to what Gleber2 has to say. I just don’t agree with his reward and punishment theory. I don’t deny the authenticity of his experience, just the interpretation of it.

I have no problem with psychology being of great importance in unlocking some of the keys to finding a peaceable future for humanity. I happen to be a Jungian, which basically means that added to the unconscious drivers of our own experience are the drivers we also unconsciously inherit from the past. I just happen to believe that in addition to all the chemically formulated memories of the body that there is a spiritual, an outside the body, component to life as well.

But back to psychology, one of my favorite helps for people looking to find compatible ways to relate to one another is the MyersBriggs personality profile. It is based on Jung’s work. Google it or go to http://www.myersbriggs.org/my_mbti_personality_type/mbti_basics/. Yes, I am an ESTJ, who would have guessed. And this has to do with nuclear warfare how? Well, I think that in our discussion we have now started exploring pathways for the people of the world to keep from destroying themselves. And who knows, maybe we can even find a place where we can all enjoy ourselves. Do I think that we can do it? Yes. Maybe I am more trusting than gleeber first gave me credit?

Finally, a note about my use of "a new world order." I knew that it wasn’t an expression I would likely have come up with on my own. Not my style. Then I remembered the book which rich had given me to read at our June Toronto org chapter meeting. "Saturday" by Ian McEwan is full of the expression "a new order." He (McEwan, not rich) writes about the post 9/11 world.



Okay, I have said my bit, now back to the physics lesson. Hey, DrSzin it is fascinating.

[sjwahwah]

Should I respond to this somewhat inflammatory post? I think I should just to clear the air a little.

Most people would not describe DU weapons as nuclear weapons. They contain uranium - just like the bomb that was dropped on Hiroshima on August 6, 1945 - but there are huge differences. Here are a few of them, elaborated in a very simple-minded fashion:
The destructive power of the Hiroshima bomb came from the splitting of the uranium nucleus into two lighter nuclei, plus neutrons and other radiation - aka nuclear fission. An enormous amount of energy is released in the fission process because the resulting light nuclei have higher binding energies than the parent uranium nucleus. This energy was stored in the uranium nucleus which is held together by the strong nuclear force. Hence the name nuclear weapon. The explosive release of nuclear energy creates an enormous firebomb which gives the weapon its godawful destructive power. It also leaves behind long-lived radioactive byproducts and gives off huge amounts of "radiation" of various sorts. It's all very nasty...
The idea behind weapons containing depleted uranium (DU) is very different. DU is very heavy and very hard, so it does more damage in the simple way that heavy and hard things always do. They are hard to stop, and they pierce armour. DU is used to make bullets and shells. In this case the DU is the core of the shell; in simple terms it is the shell - it's not just the pointy tip. DU is also pyrophoric, it burns easily at room temperature, and it burns and explodes once inside its target. This leaves behind the infamous radioactive DU dust that is of great concern. DU is also (alledgedly?) used in the casing for smart bombs, cruise missiles, and perhaps other weapons. Note that DU weapons do not release energy from the nucleus. Their extraordinary effectiveness comes from their kinetic energy (via their heaviness and high speed), and from chemical energy released in self-burning or by conventional chemical explosives. So DU weapons are clearly not nuclear weapons in the usual sense.Is it therefore incorrect to say that DU weapons are nuclear weapons? I would "yes, it is incorrect" simply because DU weapons release essentially no nuclear energy when used, and no nuclear processes take place during that time. It's perhaps possible to make the opposite case because DU weapons leave behind lots of uranium (obviously!), and this is radioactive. But I think that's pushing semantics to the limit.

DU is also chemically toxic, and I must admit that I don't know whether the toxicity or radioactive danger is worse. I would guess there are experts reading this who are cringing at my naive attempts to explain all this. :o

Where did you get the birth-defect figure of 67%? I Googled for a while but the highest figure I found was 3%. Perhaps I was looking in the wrong place.

Also, what is the justification for your claim that "in Iraq the depleted uranium radiation equals that of 250,000 Nagasaki bombs"? I'm sure that that the explosive power was nowhere near that level, and you are clearly not claiming that anyway. It's also clear that the amount of DU used in Iraq is far higher than the 64kg of enriched uranium used in the Hiroshima bomb. Perhaps you are claiming that about 15,000 tonnes of DU were used in weapons in Iraq - that's roughly 250,000 times as much uranium as in the Hiroshima bomb. (The Nagasaki bomb was plutonium-based.) But that's not the same thing. Uranium 238 has a half-life of nearly 5 billion years so it'll be a long time before most of it emits anything! Yes, I know, that's not the point. The point is that there are pooloads of the stuff in Iraq (and elsewhere), it's a radioactive alpha-emitter and therefore very dangerous if ingested, it's chemically toxic, and it's gonna take forever to clean up the mess. In the meantime people will suffer, and some will suffer dreadfully.

DU weapons are nasty - make no mistake about it - but they ain't nuclear explosives. Have they been classified and banned as WMDs? "Yes", say many. "No", say the US military. Sigh...

Should they be banned? I like to think the world might see a way to ban them, but I can't see it happening soon. Please, please, please can we have a sensible Democrat in the White House next time?

Finally, the above is essentially a brain-dump and may contain a few errors. Feel free to point them out. I've also been lazy about quoting references. Yell if you need some.
I think a very good description, Dr. Szin. But, yes I say nuclear weapons... they are a product of the nuclear weapon and energy industry.. the waste in fact... so even worse if you ask me. Dumping our toxic waste in someone elses back garden... nasty indeed. As my description for a WMD is merely one weapon that can kill more than one person at one time...anything less is called a gun... and even those can hit more than one at one time.

We must also remember that alot of the depleted uranium has been found to be contaminated with plutonium and neptunium on a few occasions.. is it an accident or on purpose? That shouldn't matter, they shouldn't be dumping our toxic rubbish in other countries anyways.

Birth defects.. where did I get this info... books... medical journals.. web... and from people. the percentage sticks in my head from a journal which I have since dug up today since reading your post... and I was wrong for which I apologise! It was statistics from a veterans community in Mississipi... 67% of the Gulf War 1 vets newborns were born with malformations. And cases of leukemia and cancer are up 66% in Southern Iraq since the 1st Gulf War. I barely heard of the stuff till late 2000 whilst living in Slovenija, my ex boyfriend, a Yugoslav was informed by his father of the horrors unfolding at his GP practice in Sarajevo (and continue to) with the staggering prevalance of deformities, birth defects, cancer cases in relation to patients urine samples (proofs in the pudding as it were) since the blanket bombings in 1995.... and so it goes. The defects range from trisomy 31, missing limbs, missing eyes, missing heads, larger than normal heads and deformities of every sort and some pretty vile neurological damage.

Something like 200,000 (just under one third of all the veterans) GW1 veterans disabled... they weren't shot these guys or injured... what happened to them then?

As far as being classed as a WMD... refer to first paragraph. But, anyways.. when the IAEA went to Iraq in 1999/2000.. they wrote them up for their depleted uranium weapons that were in their arsenal.. but, we are fine to have it ourselves???

And.... test it in this country? Solway Firth... Cape Wrath.. between that and Gruinard Island I wonder how much we will put up with.. and don't forget the countless other weapons probably being tested by the MOD right now.... right here in Scotland.

and if anyone wants to split hairs over if it matters if people are affected by radiation or chemicals from DU munitions or nuclear explosions... split away.. no pun intended!:D
If you go by statistics from Nagasaki of deaths and injuries by the time THIS war and is over we'll be counting the same including long term casualties especially when our US/UK military keeps insisting it's GOOD for them and for us.

Hats off to Jim Sheridan for standing down today!

[j4bberw0ck]

by the time THIS war and is over we'll be counting the same including long term casualties especially when our US/UK military keeps insisting it's GOOD for them and for us.

The military say nothing, or very little. The politicians, on the other hand...... the military are simply doing the job they were told to do. A small point, but the devil's in the detail.......

[mareng]

On the 6th of august 1945, a boeing b29 superfortress took off from the tinian island in the pacific carrying an awesome new weapon weighing almost 10,000lbs and containing 140lbs of deadly uranium 235.
The bomb was code-named little boy, the target for the mission, hiroshima.
The bomb load was released over it's target at 0915 hrs at an altitude of 31,000 feet.
Little boy exploded 800 feet above the target with the equivalent force of 20,000 tons of t.n.t.
Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds......

Always puts a shiver down my spine listening to that.


What started out as a post from Pultneytooner, highlighting the aniversary of the Hiroshima attack and the feeling that the quote from Oppenheimer creates in people .................. developed into a "Top Trumps" of war crimes (perceived or otherwise).

He highlights one, and is immediately pounced on for not mentioning every other one - Brilliant! (for "brilliant", read - "pathetic")

I have a feeling that had the bombs not been used to end the war in the far east, then one or more would have been used subsequently as part of an escallating dispute, and that it was only the true horrors being known - that has prevented this.

Have a nice day now.

[Gleber2]

gleeber, I agree with you, and Gleber2 writes that he agrees with you, but still there is a huge disconnect between G2 and myself. Maybe it is not so much that I disagree with G2, but rather I just don’t understand.
That belief lets me at least listen to what Gleber2 has to say. I just don’t agree with his reward and punishment theory. I don’t deny the authenticity of his experience, just the interpretation of it.

A nice post Canuck, but I feel I should answer it and Gleeber's previous one.

I believe in the Law of Kharma. In this life and whatever is to come, we get what we deserve. Not what we think we deserve but what we have rightfully earned, be it good or bad. In the Christian religion, it is believed that there is a Heaven and a Hell(and a pugatory if you are the other sort of Christian) and where we end up depends how good we are in this life and whether or not we believe in Christ( The only way unto the Father is through me, even though you are black evil you can repent on Sunday and be forgiven if you believe in me). The Muslims are told they will go to Paradise if they obey the Mullahs and keep Allah's laws as laid down by Mohammed. I could go on but I think that I have said enough to indicate that every religion, belief or faith dangles their own carrot and makes their own promises about the rewards of being faithful.. I do not believe in the Christian mythos or any other religious dogma purveyed by books, prophets and preachers.
My own belief in the Law of Kharma calls for me to actually live the laws of Christ without believing the religious aspect. So many Christians are ever so holy but are not practising the teachings of Jesus. He who has raised his intellectual understanding to the point where he goes beyond the Bible and takes the commandaments a little bit more seriously realises that Thou Shalt Not Kill covers all living creatures not just fellow man. He has a cleaner kharma than he who kills anything he pleases except humans. 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you' is common sense. How many religious people actually practise this in day to day life? The hypocrisy of religion, in my book, can never provide a gateway to paradise even if that paradise exists. My own beliefs have changed with the years and the experiences of what could be termed a strange lifetime and I have changed with these changes. To me it does not matter what happens after death but I will hedge my bets by deliberately keeping my kharmic debt to a minimum just in case.
I don't need a religion or faith to do this. I cannot admit, even at my lowest moments, that there is no point to life on Earth and I have come to believe that this life is one of many on a path to enlightenment and it is what we achieve in our search for higher meaning which is the point of life. We all start with the same bag of tools and the same book of rules. It is what we do with them that decides where we go when we croak. Back on the Wheel to try again or on to the next stage.

As far as the gloom and doom aspects of this thread are concerned. We are in the midst of unprecedented climate change brought on by our rampant consumerism. We cannot repair this. We have created holes in the ozone layer. We cannot repair this. Our atmosphere is getting more polluted by the minute. We cannot repair this. More and more volcanoes are showing signs of erruption. We cannot control this. The sea is a chemical soup. We cannot stop it. We are in danger of nuclear war. We could stop it but some nations are too crazy to even try to stop it. We have more starving, lost people than at any time in our history. Who has really tried to stop it? We have Aids and other diseases almost endemic. We seem incapable of stopping it. We have destroyed the land by over fertilising it in the name of greed, not nescessity and we are destroying the rain forests which are our air purifiers..
I am sure that if I wanted to, I could extend this list for a long time. My point is that the ecosystem that sustains life on Earth appears to be self healing but we have, in my opinion, pushed the limits of that process and we now expect miracles to ensure our future. We are pollutung and raping the planet at an unprecedented rate and there is a limit to the bashing that any system can take before it collapses. It will not need an atomic holocaust to destroy life on Earth. The inate goodness of humanity maybe a factor in your thinking, Canuck, but I am afraid I lost faith in the human race a long time ago.
I believe that it is too late for we humans to do anything to avert the impending disaster and all I can do is to make sure that my Kharmic debt is low enough to ensure my personal survival into the next stage of existance. If all my beliefs are bunkum then when I die I will be dead and won't care if I am right or wrong. If I am right?????

[Blazing Sporrans]

Gleber, while I don't always agree with everything you post (such is the way of life), I have to say that your last entry was as heartfelt and honest a posting as I've ever seen on here and would be a fitting epitaph for anyone with a caring bone in their body. You are due much respect for that.

[Gleber2]

Gleber, while I don't always agree with everything you post (such is the way of life), I have to say that your last entry was as heartfelt and honest a posting as I've ever seen on here and would be a fitting epitaph for anyone with a caring bone in their body. You are due much respect for that.
Thanks. .......

[canuck]

Gleber2, I too thank you for what you have written. You know that I do not agree with it all, but I respect the concerns you have raised and pretty much agree with you on them.

[pultneytooner]

What started out as a post from Pultneytooner, highlighting the aniversary of the Hiroshima attack and the feeling that the quote from Oppenheimer creates in people .................. developed into a "Top Trumps" of war crimes (perceived or otherwise).

He highlights one, and is immediately pounced on for not mentioning every other one - Brilliant! (for "brilliant", read - "pathetic")

I have a feeling that had the bombs not been used to end the war in the far east, then one or more would have been used subsequently as part of an escallating dispute, and that it was only the true horrors being known - that has prevented this.

Have a nice day now. That's exactly the way I felt at the start of this thread,made feel guilty for not mentioning every other atrocity commited by mankind.
Regarding the quote from openhiemer, you are exactly right, I was trying to convey my feelingsof dread when I realise the truth of his quote, hiroshima or not.

[sjwahwah]

That's exactly the way I felt at the start of this thread,made feel guilty for not mentioning every other atrocity commitedby mankind.

Well... i thought it was a good thread & and a well thought out post... afterall it wasn't a thread called "Every atrocity commited by mankind."

[pultneytooner]

Well... i thought it was a good thread & and a well thought out post... afterall it wasn't a thread called "Every atrocity commited by mankind." Precisely sjwahwah, but as you can see from the first few posts, i was indeed pounced upon as being seemingly unpatriotic so for not mentioning japanese atrocities.
Which seemed to me as for the sins of their armies they deserved everything they got.

[crayola]

Thank you for your concern. What a lovely start to the morning! Someone who cares! http://www.teddies.be/Forum/images/smiles/taetschel.gif You are very welcome. I specialise in helping those most in need.


Sorry. Actually I was referring to the experience of finding oneself in a job, and marginalised in some way - and of dealing with it. Oh rats, there's that expression again. Terribly sorry. Deep breathing, all together now, one................ two.................. http://www.teddies.be/Forum/images/smiles/undwech.gifI can recomend some herbal homopathic remedies which will help with your breathing exercises.

The same for you gleber2. You know your kharma thing doesn't hold any candles to me but there are homopathic remedies to help you cope with fear of the future and to put your thoughts back in positive balance. You need to let good thoughts wash out those negatives ones and put your kharma back on track.

what's happened to sjwahwah? What did she do to be put in the Orger jail? Hold on in there hon, there's life after it.

[j4bberw0ck]

You are very welcome. I specialise in helping those most in need.

Excellent, crayola! Nicely done. Physician, heal thyself...........


I can recomend some herbal homopathic remedies which will help with your breathing exercises.

You must excuse me here but do you mean homopathic (a word which the dictionary unaccountably fails to include but presumably has to do with killing people), or homeopathic (where the increasing dilution of a substance increases its efficacy, to the point presumably where none of it at all is infinitely efficacious?)

:lol::lol:

[MadPict]

You must excuse me here but do you mean homopathic (a word which the dictionary unaccountably fails to include but presumably has to do with killing people)...

[lol][lol]

[crayola]

Excellent, crayola! Nicely done. Physician, heal thyself...........Thank you. I do consider myself to be a bit of a physician and I start the second year of my course next week.



You must excuse me here but do you mean homopathic (a word which the dictionary unaccountably fails to include but presumably has to do with killing people), or homeopathic (where the increasing dilution of a substance increases its efficacy, to the point presumably where none of it at all is infinitely efficacious?)

:lol::lol:That's right, homeopathic. Once the substance is sufficiently pure its healing powers are supposed to be unlimited. They claim removal of all physical traces allows to connect to the cosmic consciousness and tap into its infinite healing powers. I'm not sure I believe that, especially the astral plane explanation, but my teacher is an MD from Baltimore and she thinks that's how it works. I think more research is needed here.

[MadPict]

I'm not sure I believe that, especially the astral plane explanation...

Let's hope they don't have baggage restrictions on those flights.....

[Chobbersjnr]

The same for you gleber2. You know your kharma thing doesn't hold any candles to me but there are homopathic remedies to help you cope with fear of the future and to put your thoughts back in positive balance. You need to let good thoughts wash out those negatives ones and put your kharma back on track.
it.
I must point out here and now that I posted this when Chobbersjnr was loggedin but I am not he, I am Gleber2.
There's a word for your babble lassie, but if I use it I will get banned. You have the temerity to preach at people after a mere course in the subject of healing and your words are empty vessels which carry no weight. Another five to ten years under a real master and you might learn enough humility to realise that you know nothing. Then you might begin to learn.:Razz

[Chobbersjnr]

Gleber2.............

I'll be picking a bone wi you[lol] [lol]

[Saveman]

This is certainly an interesting thread and we've seen some of the more amiable orgers play their hands, DrSzin getting down and dirty with the fission.......Canuck revealing all about her varied faiths and almost disagreeing with someone ;) and Gleber2 coming as close to the finest literature prose as this forum has ever seen....wow!
I'm impressed. However.......you can't all be right.

I agree with Gleber2's belief that the end is coming.....so we haven't long to wait to find out eh?

[pultneytooner]

A nice post Canuck, but I feel I should answer it and Gleeber's previous one.

I believe in the Law of Kharma. In this life and whatever is to come, we get what we deserve. Not what we think we deserve but what we have rightfully earned, be it good or bad. In the Christian religion, it is believed that there is a Heaven and a Hell(and a pugatory if you are the other sort of Christian) and where we end up depends how good we are in this life and whether or not we believe in Christ( The only way unto the Father is through me, even though you are black evil you can repent on Sunday and be forgiven if you believe in me). The Muslims are told they will go to Paradise if they obey the Mullahs and keep Allah's laws as laid down by Mohammed. I could go on but I think that I have said enough to indicate that every religion, belief or faith dangles their own carrot and makes their own promises about the rewards of being faithful.. I do not believe in the Christian mythos or any other religious dogma purveyed by books, prophets and preachers.
My own belief in the Law of Kharma calls for me to actually live the laws of Christ without believing the religious aspect. So many Christians are ever so holy but are not practising the teachings of Jesus. He who has raised his intellectual understanding to the point where he goes beyond the Bible and takes the commandaments a little bit more seriously realises that Thou Shalt Not Kill covers all living creatures not just fellow man. He has a cleaner kharma than he who kills anything he pleases except humans. 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you' is common sense. How many religious people actually practise this in day to day life? The hypocrisy of religion, in my book, can never provide a gateway to paradise even if that paradise exists. My own beliefs have changed with the years and the experiences of what could be termed a strange lifetime and I have changed with these changes. To me it does not matter what happens after death but I will hedge my bets by deliberately keeping my kharmic debt to a minimum just in case.
I don't need a religion or faith to do this. I cannot admit, even at my lowest moments, that there is no point to life on Earth and I have come to believe that this life is one of many on a path to enlightenment and it is what we achieve in our search for higher meaning which is the point of life. We all start with the same bag of tools and the same book of rules. It is what we do with them that decides where we go when we croak. Back on the Wheel to try again or on to the next stage.

As far as the gloom and doom aspects of this thread are concerned. We are in the midst of unprecedented climate change brought on by our rampant consumerism. We cannot repair this. We have created holes in the ozone layer. We cannot repair this. Our atmosphere is getting more polluted by the minute. We cannot repair this. More and more volcanoes are showing signs of erruption. We cannot control this. The sea is a chemical soup. We cannot stop it. We are in danger of nuclear war. We could stop it but some nations are too crazy to even try to stop it. We have more starving, lost people than at any time in our history. Who has really tried to stop it? We have Aids and other diseases almost endemic. We seem incapable of stopping it. We have destroyed the land by over fertilising it in the name of greed, not nescessity and we are destroying the rain forests which are our air purifiers..
I am sure that if I wanted to, I could extend this list for a long time. My point is that the ecosystem that sustains life on Earth appears to be self healing but we have, in my opinion, pushed the limits of that process and we now expect miracles to ensure our future. We are pollutung and raping the planet at an unprecedented rate and there is a limit to the bashing that any system can take before it collapses. It will not need an atomic holocaust to destroy life on Earth. The inate goodness of humanity maybe a factor in your thinking, Canuck, but I am afraid I lost faith in the human race a long time ago.
I believe that it is too late for we humans to do anything to avert the impending disaster and all I can do is to make sure that my Kharmic debt is low enough to ensure my personal survival into the next stage of existance. If all my beliefs are bunkum then when I die I will be dead and won't care if I am right or wrong. If I am right?????

Maybe this (http://www.gaianet.fsbusiness.co.uk/gaiatheory.html) will interest you.

[Gleber2]

Maybe this (http://www.gaianet.fsbusiness.co.uk/gaiatheory.html) will interest you.

Thanks Pt. I have been a firm believer in something akin to the Gaia theory for a long time. A perfect system with humankind the only flaw.

[crayola]

I must point out here and now that I posted this when Chobbersjnr was loggedin but I am not he, I am Gleber2.
There's a word for your babble lassie, but if I use it I will get banned. You have the temerity to preach at people after a mere course in the subject of healing and your words are empty vessels which carry no weight. Another five to ten years under a real master and you might learn enough humility to realise that you know nothing. Then you might begin to learn.:RazzI'm sorry you feel that way but if you ever want to come and seek help the ofer is still open. I don't judge people by their negative posts, even those who have problems with ego and humility. I worry about the insularity of some of our fellow Cathnessians. Go out and sample a bit of life outside of it and come back and tell me I'm wrong. Travel afar. Have you ever travelled to Koenigsburg or Rostock? They are mind expanding.

Sometimes I have the feeling that people don't take me seriously, especially when I introduce esotoric concepts like global consciousness into the equation. It isn't all pot noodle nonsense you know. It's the subject of serious research by scholars from Princeton. Got to this si (http://noosphere.princeton.edu/)te for the gory details. It's been proved here (http://noosphere.princeton.edu/story.html).

[crayola]

Thanks Pt. I have been a firm believer in something akin to the Gaia theory for a long time. A perfect system with humankind the only flaw.There you go again. Putting your kind down without good reason. If you truly understood Gaia you would know you couldn't possibly say humankind is a flaw. The whole idea behind Gaia is that living systems balance themselves despite imbalances caused by man or any external influence or effluents.

[Dreadnought]

There you go again. Putting your kind down without good reason. If you truly understood Gaia you would know you couldn't possibly say humankind is a flaw. The whole idea behind Gaia is that living systems balance themselves despite imbalances caused by man or any external influence or effluents.

How well does an immune system balance itself against, say, ebola virus? It doesn't, it dies. We are Earth's ebola virus.

[j4bberw0ck]

How well does an immune system balance itself against, say, ebola virus? It doesn't, it dies. We are Earth's ebola virus.
It's something of a mystery to me how people conclude that humans are always the villains of the piece. Maybe it's low self-esteem :lol:

OK, we're not a particularly prepossessing lot for a good deal of the time. We are, though, the product of evolution.

Try this:

In evolution, genetic change has produced a series of creatures which ended up as top predator. It used to be dinosaurs when size and bulk was important, now it's us because brains are important.

The purpose of evolution is the refinement of the DNA genetic message.

The purpose of DNA is to reproduce itself

The purpose of Gaia is the provision of an environment (a nursery if you will) for the DNA genetic message to be safe

Humans represent the highest expression so far of DNA and are the first DNA creation with brains and skills enough to have a chance to get off the planet

Ultimately, when the science and engineering is mastered, humans - the DNA "fruiting body" - will leave the earth and spread through the solar system and then wider, increasing the chance of DNA survival.



Perhaps in doing so it'll become necessary for DNA to fight for its own survival against some form of life based on a different "DNA" (different "DNA" but with the same built-in imperatives of survival / reproduction etc) and so evolution carries on. Perhaps that's why aggression and violence seem to be so much a part of animals, especially us. It's a valuable genetic trait in the survival stakes. Not survival of the human - of the DNA.

If you believe the Gaia philosophy, why not look at it positively, and view the wonders humans have achieved and are yet to achieve as part of the grand design? We have no information one way or the other so there's no point making yourself miserable, unless of course you enjoy being miserable......

The mushroom analogy above works rather well. All the action in fungus is in its mycelia; they grow and whiffle away happily under the ground where it's safe and they're invisible. Then it needs to reproduce and up pops a mushroom to dump a load of spores. Humans are the mushroom, created only to be able to spread their DNA, to ensure its survival. Perhaps there's some Galactic Antonio Carlucci waiting to pick us and fry us up with garlic...... :lol:

Do I believe all this? No. But then I don't believe in Gaia as an organism either. Although there are things which continue to make me think and wonder about how well my hard science upbringing explains some of what goes on - or seems to go on - in the world. There.......I've said it! Arrgghh.......

[golach]

I'm sorry you feel that way but if you ever want to come and seek help the ofer is still open. I don't judge people by their negative posts, even those who have problems with ego and humility. I worry about the insularity of some of our fellow Cathnessians. Go out and sample a bit of life outside of it and come back and tell me I'm wrong. Travel afar. Have you ever travelled to Koenigsburg or Rostock? They are mind expanding.

Sometimes I have the feeling that people don't take me seriously, especially when I introduce esotoric concepts like global consciousness into the equation. It isn't all pot noodle nonsense you know. It's the subject of serious research by scholars from Princeton. Got to this si (http://noosphere.princeton.edu/)te for the gory details. It's been proved here (http://noosphere.princeton.edu/story.html).
Glad to see you back from your travels Crayola, did you clock up many airmiles on your broomstick?:lol:
No seriously, glad to see you back, need some other views in here these days, although I am not a believer, what a change from the usual conspiracy threads. I am learning new words like "esotoric". As for travel expanding the mind, every been to Goose bay, Rimouski, Sept Illes or Isle aux Morts, now they ARE mind expanding

[MadPict]

Glastonbury used to be pretty mind expanding.....

Wish folk wuld at leest get the spelin korrekt wen thay yous mistereus wurds.......

[Gleber2]

I'm sorry you feel that way but if you ever want to come and seek help the ofer is still open. I don't judge people by their negative posts, even those who have problems with ego and humility. I worry about the insularity of some of our fellow Cathnessians. Go out and sample a bit of life outside of it and come back and tell me I'm wrong. Travel afar. Have you ever travelled to Koenigsburg or Rostock? They are mind expanding.

Sometimes I have the feeling that people don't take me seriously, especially when I introduce esotoric concepts like global consciousness into the equation. It isn't all pot noodle nonsense you know. It's the subject of serious research by scholars from Princeton. Got to this si (http://noosphere.princeton.edu/)te for the gory details. It's been proved here (http://noosphere.princeton.edu/story.html).

You make too many assumptions when you talk to me, my dear aspiring witch. Do not assume that I have not travelled. I have, extensively. How can I ask help from some-one who admits to taking weekend courses in Wicca. It's not that I don't take the subject matter of your posts seriously, it's you in your org persona that I find amusing. You are not alone in your use of esoteric terminology but you show an intellectual pride in your carefully bought knowledge which I find amusing although you patronising attitude is a wee bit annoying. Having you reply to me in your usual condescending fashion is like a first year pupil trying to impress a senior with what he has learned.
Observing the sorry state of poor old Gaia and the insanity of the human race
how can I not put down my own kind. The system is so out of balance that no immune system can put it right. My attitude is not at all negative, it is completely realistic and is based on a continuing observation of the game and our ecosystem for over thirty years using what was learned in the previous thirty. Dreadnought has the right of it but I consider the human race to be a cancer, not a virus

[Gleber2]

Glastonbury used to be pretty mind expanding.....

Wish folk wuld at leest get the spelin korrekt wen thay yous mistereus wurds.......

Your posts are beginning to read like a petulant complaining little boy venting his spleen. Lighten up Pict:lol:

Glastonbury in the seventies taught me a lot about the subjects under discussion and was quite mind expanding.

[canuck]

It's something of a mystery to me how people conclude that humans are always the villains of the piece. Maybe it's low self-esteem :lol:

The purpose of evolution is the refinement of the DNA genetic message.

The purpose of DNA is to reproduce itself

The purpose of Gaia is the provision of an environment (a nursery if you will) for the DNA genetic message to be safe

Humans represent the highest expression so far of DNA and are the first DNA creation with brains and skills enough to have a chance to get off the planet

Ultimately, when the science and engineering is mastered, humans - the DNA "fruiting body" - will leave the earth and spread through the solar system and then wider, increasing the chance of DNA survival.




Where this all falls off the rails for me is somewhere in the murkiness between the altruistic Gaia concept of genetic survival and the worldly reality of vengeance as a way of life.

[j4bberw0ck]

Where this all falls off the rails for me is somewhere in the murkiness between the altruistic Gaia concept of genetic survival and the worldly reality of vengeance as a way of life.

It was written very much tongue-in-cheek; I just wanted to show that another (and more positive) view is possible from the same background concept. Albeit a more positive view which relegates humanity to being the vehicle by which DNA spreads beyond this small planet.

[DrSzin]

It was written very much tongue-in-cheek; I just wanted to show that another (and more positive) view is possible from the same background concept. Albeit a more positive view which relegates humanity to being the vehicle by which DNA spreads beyond this small planet.Your post may have been tongue-in-cheek but I think there are too many people in this world who take Dawkins-style "selfish gene" ideas much too literally. IMHO Dawkins suffers from being far too reductionist in almost everything he pontificates on. I'm no great fan of Phil Anderson's opinions but I think he's spot on when he makes a big fuss about his claim that More is Different (http://www.pupress.princeton.edu/titles/7103.html). Blaming the human race's actions on genes alone is like saying that all of Chemistry is electromagnetism, and all of Biology is explained by Chemistry, therefore the actions of human beings are explained by electromagnetism. In a naive sense it's true, but it's utterly useless in practice, and you can't use it to predict or explain the actions of man or any other complex living creature.

[j4bberw0ck]

Your post may have been tongue-in-cheek
I quite enjoyed the thought of humanity as a mushroom. :lol: Deep in the malodorous stuff, here today, gone tomorrow and eminently edible between times. Well, some, anyway. Fundamentalist mushrooms of any persuasion might stick in the throat; a few might explode spontaneously. Witchy "magic" mushrooms could drive you insane as they alter perceptions of reality (this is intended to be light-hearted and not to cause offence!). Politicians might be puffballs - because what they say is a load of both, as they try to make themselves larger than life. <sticks head above battlements> I wonder what sort of mushrooms would bulletin board contributors be? [lol]

[Gleber2]

> I wonder what sort of mushrooms would bulletin board contributors be? [lol]

One of the varieties of Amanitas, most of which are poisonous.[evil]

I'm glad your Gaia post was tongue in cheek as I was on the verge of risking falling out with you again.

[Gleber2]

There you go again. Putting your kind down without good reason. If you truly understood Gaia you would know you couldn't possibly say humankind is a flaw. The whole idea behind Gaia is that living systems balance themselves despite imbalances caused by man or any external influence or effluents.

Every system is stable until the balance is pushed beyond saving and, like a row of dominoes, it only takes one push to bring it all down. No amount of philosophic optimism will save our bacon when the time comes. As in the case of many old people, the auto-immune system will go crazy in Old Mother Earth and the whole ecosystem will collapse.

[pultneytooner]

Every system is stable until the balance is pushed beyond saving and, like a row of dominoes, it only takes one push to bring it all down. No amount of philosophic optimism will save our bacon when the time comes. As in the case of many old people, the auto-immune system will go crazy in Old Mother Earth and the whole ecosystem will collapse. The earth will adapt and survive, even if it means extiguishing humankind.;)

[Gleber2]

The earth will adapt and survive, even if it means extiguishing humankind.;)

That is the optimist's cop-out.:Razz

[pultneytooner]

That is the optimist's cop-out.:Razz
What can I say, I'm the eternal one.:D

[oldmarine]

The bomb dropped on an uninhabited island near Japan would have ended the war I believe. There was no need for the USA to drop this bomb on Hiroshima or even less Nagasaki except to show that they could. Must be considered one of the biggest War Crimes ever.

Those of us who were waiting to make the landing om the main Japanese islands certainly would not agree with you. I fought through the Pacific theater island-by-island to over come the enemy who bombed Pearl Harbor for a period of 36 months. The closer we got to the Japanese mainland, the harder the enemy fought. By the time we got to Iwo Jima and to Okinawa, the Japanese were fighting fiercely. Those who visited Japan after they surrended found their defences were ready to take millions of lives on both sides. Those of us who were there believed the dropping of the two A-bombs ultimately saved many lives inspite of what those who came along a couple of generations later try to portray. I am thankful my country had the intestinal fortitude to end the war right then and there in the manner which they did. Most of those who were with me agree to that statement. The emperor of Japan made the correct decision to end that war the way it ended.

[Gleber2]

Those of us who were waiting to make the landing om the main Japanese islands certainly would not agree with you. I fought through the Pacific theater island-by-island to over come the enemy who bombed Pearl Harbor for a period of 36 months. The closer we got to the Japanese mainland, the harder the enemy fought. By the time we got to Iwo Jima and to Okinawa, the Japanese were fighting fiercely. Those who visited Japan after they surrended found their defences were ready to take millions of lives on both sides. Those of us who were there believed the dropping of the two A-bombs ultimately saved many lives inspite of what those who came along a couple of generations later try to portray. I am thankful my country had the intestinal fortitude to end the war right then and there in the manner which they did. Most of those who were with me agree to that statement. The emperor of Japan made the correct decision to end that war the way it ended.
I can only say that your opinion, based on your actual experience of the events, is probably right. I cannot argue. I was born in 1944 and grew up close to the event and I still believe that a real demonstation of the power of the bomb and the ease with which it could be utilised would have been enough to bring a surrender from any sane country but perhaps you are right in the case of Japan to whom surrender was worse than death.

[Rheghead]

Those of us who were waiting to make the landing om the main Japanese islands certainly would not agree with you. I fought through the Pacific theater island-by-island to over come the enemy who bombed Pearl Harbor for a period of 36 months. The closer we got to the Japanese mainland, the harder the enemy fought. By the time we got to Iwo Jima and to Okinawa, the Japanese were fighting fiercely. Those who visited Japan after they surrended found their defences were ready to take millions of lives on both sides. Those of us who were there believed the dropping of the two A-bombs ultimately saved many lives inspite of what those who came along a couple of generations later try to portray. I am thankful my country had the intestinal fortitude to end the war right then and there in the manner which they did. Most of those who were with me agree to that statement. The emperor of Japan made the correct decision to end that war the way it ended.

Well thank you for contributing! It is great when someone with real experience can come on here and discredit the notion that the bomb wasn't needed and Japan was on the verge of capitulation anyway.

Respect to you Sir!

[crayola]

You make too many assumptions when you talk to me, my dear aspiring witch. Do not assume that I have not travelled. I have, extensively. How can I ask help from some-one who admits to taking weekend courses in Wicca. It's not that I don't take the subject matter of your posts seriously, it's you in your org persona that I find amusing. You are not alone in your use of esoteric terminology but you show an intellectual pride in your carefully bought knowledge which I find amusing although you patronising attitude is a wee bit annoying. Having you reply to me in your usual condescending fashion is like a first year pupil trying to impress a senior with what he has learned.
Observing the sorry state of poor old Gaia and the insanity of the human race
how can I not put down my own kind. The system is so out of balance that no immune system can put it right. My attitude is not at all negative, it is completely realistic and is based on a continuing observation of the game and our ecosystem for over thirty years using what was learned in the previous thirty. Dreadnought has the right of it but I consider the human race to be a cancer, not a virusI make no assumptions about you at all my dear Gleber2. I am neither condescending nor patronising, I am trying to help you escape from the philosophical straitjacket you have chosen to wear. I speak not of the esotoric but of the practical. Please come and join me and my friends.