View Full Version : Dounreay sphere to be demolished
coppertop 1958
16-Sep-10, 10:58
The landmark sphere at the Dounreay nuclear plant will be demolished, the site's operator has said.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-11317499
This is a bad decision, really hope there is some sort of campaign to try and reverse it.
Time for revolution people, we need to protest this decision!
Lets not wait on others to decide when to protest lets take action now.
Everyone should be pleased at this news.....at least it is being replaced by 100's of lovely (not) wind turbines.
Take the dome down by all means, it has no further use up here but pleeeeeeeeeeze take all the wind turbines with it and stick them up in Hyde Park or somewhere.
C3.....:eek::roll::(
I still vote revolution but maybe we will have to save that for another day.
Dounreay isn't exactly a beautiful site. Replacing it with windmills at least mean that some power will come of Dounreays remains.
Do you all get decommissioning? The idea is when it is finished it will be like Dounreay never existed.
Do you all get decommissioning? The idea is when it is finished it will be like Dounreay never existed.
..........do you get history?
Do you all get decommissioning? The idea is when it is finished it will be like Dounreay never existed.
You is all fools, you needz to go and literate all your peoples!
This is fantastic news. The sphere is an eyesore and an expensive health hazard dripping with rust stains.
changilass
16-Sep-10, 13:14
You may think its an eye sore, but many of us have grown up with it as part of the landscape.
Why are DSRL announcing this anyway, they just opperate it on behalf of the NDA who own it, so surely it should be them making any announcements.
DSRL are just after the bonusses they get for having their name in the papers.
Big N Rich
16-Sep-10, 13:41
300 years until you can gain access to the site again. Well there goes my plan as a location for a low budget disaster movie
Not that I am planning some crazy attack with the radiation I will absorb but will it still be necessary to guard the site for 300 years or will it just be fenced off?
This is fantastic news. The sphere is an eyesore and an expensive health hazard dripping with rust stains.
Eyesore......subjective opinion.
Health Hazard..........disagree, perhaps you could explain why the sphere is a health hazard.
Eyesore......subjective opinion.
Health Hazard..........disagree, perhaps you could explain why the sphere is a health hazard.
It is rusting. When iron rusts it becomes flaky. When it become flaky then it spreads via air touch etc. It becomes a health hazard radiologically by having it enter bodies by more than one route and in safety terms as the roof caves in as with any structure that rusts. It would be best to bury.
Then you have the expense of maintaining it if you do not decommission it. Who will pay for that? The Government under all these cuts? Donations? It isn't as if it could pay for itself by being open to the public, is it?
It is rusting. When iron rusts it becomes flaky. When it become flaky then it spreads via air touch etc. It becomes a health hazard radiologically by having it enter bodies by more than one route and in safety terms as the roof caves in as with any structure that rusts. It would be best to bury.
Then you have the expense of maintaining it if you do not decommission it. Who will pay for that? The Government under all these cuts? Donations? It isn't as if it could pay for itself by being open to the public, is it?
Dont disagree that it will require to be maintained.....care to qualify how it is a "radiological" hazard, and then quantify that in terms of risk?
.care to qualify how it is a "radiological" hazard, and then quantify that in terms of risk?
Are you under the impression that it isn't a radiological risk? :)
Are you under the impression that it isn't a radiological risk? :)
So you won't/can't qualify or quantify that it poses a radiological risk?
So you won't/can't qualify or quantify that it poses a radiological risk?
That is the point, I don't think anyone can. :) But it is obvious that maintaining it increases the risk by having people working around it.
Oh I think I can.........but nice to see that you made an unsubstantiated comment;)
Oh I think I can.........but nice to see that you made an unsubstantiated comment;)
Oh I don't know about that.
The 3 principles of better radiation safety are reducing time of exposure, increasing the distance of exposure to hazard and increase the shielding.
Maintaining the eyesore for years to come fulfills none of those principles and so will do nothing for radiation safety but will actually increase the risk to those tasked to maintain it. :)
Here is the link to today's announcement about the heritage of Dounreay:
Dounreay sets out what will be kept when site has gone
Dounreay’s clean-up and closure contractor today sets out how it will leave in place a cultural legacy of Britain’s 20th century experiment with fast breeder nuclear reactors when the site itself has been flattened.
(http://www.dounreay.com/news/2010-09-16/dounreay-sets-out-what-will-be-kept-when-site-has-gone)
The sphere will continue to have an important safety role for the foreseeable future as containment for the major radiological and chemical hazard still inside the reactor.
We're working very hard to reduce and destroy that hazard as quickly as available funding will allow.
It's ikely to take a couple of decades to get rid of the hazard completely, so the containment around it - the sphere - will be with us for some time to come.
Communications Department
Dounreay Site Restoration Ltd
I for one will be sad the day the sphere goes.
I first met my husband in the sphere...he was fixing a hand and foot monitor and I was checking people out of the sphere until the hand and foot monitor was fixed!
So the sphere will be remembered fondly by me...not so much the lift up to the sphere as I got stuck in that once and my hubby (bf at time) had to rescue me!
I did see the costings to maintain the dome somewhere, - it was a fortune, most monuments sit and stay without needing vast sums spent on them. It is iconic but it would be an expensive icon.
I know it is all in the eye of the beholder but I think the dome is an artistic marvel.
The site is wonderful - a 1950s sci-fi marvel.
The dome is not hurting anybody and thousands of caithnessians must enjoy it.
As for finding a use for it....how are the acoustics? Could it be a venue for concerts?
Or perhaps we could turn it into a huge aquarium?
Maybe it could be turned into condomnium apartments...
Mystical Potato Head
16-Sep-10, 18:43
I know it is all in the eye of the beholder but I think the dome is an artistic marvel.
The site is wonderful - a 1950s sci-fi marvel.
The dome is not hurting anybody and thousands of caithnessians must enjoy it.
As for finding a use for it....how are the acoustics? Could it be a venue for concerts?
Or perhaps we could turn it into a huge aquarium?
Maybe it could be turned into condomnium apartments...
Paint it orange and write jaffa on the side.
As well as being an artistic marvel,it was an engineering marvel as well.
Oh I don't know about that.
The 3 principles of better radiation safety are reducing time of exposure, increasing the distance of exposure to hazard and increase the shielding.
Maintaining the eyesore for years to come fulfills none of those principles and so will do nothing for radiation safety but will actually increase the risk to those tasked to maintain it. :)
surely maintaining it fulfills at least 2 of those principles? The radiation is inside the dome not the outside, therefore the longer it is contained inside the more half-lifes it will have gone through so dose will be lower, in basic terms? If you repair/modify the structure then there will be a chance for no exposure which must be better? Thats if radiological safety grounds are used but I'll hazard a guess this is purely for financial reasons;)
Disposing of the Dounreay sphere and old submarine compartments seems to be much the same technology. I see a plan in the making...:roll:
Paint it orange and write jaffa on the side.
As well as being an artistic marvel,it was an engineering marvel as well.
And you'd probanly get a grant for it and win a prize if you exhibited it,
achingale
17-Sep-10, 09:34
A campaign has been launched on Facebook but doubt it will get anywhere. I for one will miss the sphere when it goes.
What's it going to cost to take it down? What harm would it do to leave it where it is? Why waste the money? No wonder the country is in debt.
Where exactly are the remaining radioactive dangers? Of what do they consist? Could radioactive materials not simply be removed by people clad in protective clothing?
And if the stuff is so toxic where are they going to get rid of it?
Remember the green garbage bag fiasco where nuclear waste was dumped in a kind of watering hole and from time to time some guy would shoot a shotgun into the mess to keep it from becoming a blob hell bent on joining the rush hour to Thurso?
Remember too that the Dounreay area is at or about sea level; the predominant rocks there are shales - crumbly rubbish from a left over sea bed; it's not like the Rocky Mountains where you could dump stuff for a million years....
To Quote Pamela Anderson "Do you want to grow two heads and have your skin fall off in green scaly lumps?.........Or not" :eek:
Of course I mean't Pamela Stephenson
To Quote Pamela Anderson "Do you want to grow two heads and have your skin fall off in green scaly lumps?.........Or not" :eek:
It seems the deterministic effects of exposure to Pamela Anderson are significantly greater than radioactive contamination, read a quote from her and you appear to display the characteristics of one of her main attributes.
Oh I don't know about that.
The 3 principles of better radiation safety are reducing time of exposure, increasing the distance of exposure to hazard and increase the shielding.
Maintaining the eyesore for years to come fulfills none of those principles and so will do nothing for radiation safety but will actually increase the risk to those tasked to maintain it. :)
Correct you don't know about that.
The main principles of radiaiton protection are:
Justification
Optimisation
Limitation
You also fail to understand what the "hazard"is and have no idea what the associated risk is.
At least the sphere will still be around when my kids are old enough to know about where mum and dad met each other!
Wish I could have a bit when it finally goes..just a paperweight sized piece of the steel ... maybe with a commemorated inscription on it with the date of building and date of dismantling?
It seems the deterministic effects of exposure to Pamela Anderson are significantly greater than radioactive contamination, read a quote from her and you appear to display the characteristics of one of her main attributes.
Her gargantuan intellect? :lol:
At least the sphere will still be around when my kids are old enough to know about where mum and dad met each other!
Wish I could have a bit when it finally goes..just a paperweight sized piece of the steel ... maybe with a commemorated inscription on it with the date of building and date of dismantling?
A paperweight that glows in the dark-handy :cool:
Correct you don't know about that.
The main principles of radiaiton protection are:
Justification
Optimisation
Limitation
You also fail to understand what the "hazard"is and have no idea what the associated risk is.
Oh if you say so, I can't be bothered with you, I must have missed that in 20 years of dealing with radiation protection and my radiation protection quallies.
Oh if you say so, I can't be bothered with you, I must have missed that in 20 years of dealing with radiation protection and my radiation protection quallies.
Yes you must......and Iwould question those qualifications..........and I am in a position to do so;)
Fact 1: There was a public consultation. Only 38 opinions were received. The campaign is too late, at least for this round.
Fact 2: The Sphere is not a health risk.
Fact 3: It could be painted with the latest paints that would last for decades.
Fact 4: It will still be there for decades.
Fact 5: The announcement was made by DSRL but the decision was taken by the NDA and Historic Scotland.
:lol:
Yes you must......and Iwould question those qualifications..........and I am in a position to do so;)
Then you will appreciate that exposing maintenance workers to a rusting radioactive monstrosity over long periods and in close proximity will mean that they will be increasing their dose to radiation. That isn't rocket science, even with your qualifications.[lol]
The sphere is coming down and DSRL has made the right decision.
John Little
18-Sep-10, 15:32
Cromford Mill, Derbyshire; the world's first factory. Preserved, Listed, world Heritage site.
Darby's blast furnace, Shropshire; first coke-fired blast furnace. Preserved, listed, World Heritage site.
Clifton Suspension Bridge...........
The Iron Bridge at Coalbrookdale........ etc etc etc.
.................................................. ........................
Dounreay's Dome. World's first fast breeder reactor. Pioneering Britain's way into the nuclear age.
Condemned, embarrassing, swept under the carpet and best forgotten in an act of cultural vandalism.
It will be Caithness's Euston Arch.
What would be good is a lifesize mock-up of the sphere to house all the artifacts from that era in Caithness history in Thurso for visitors to look around. Seeing the little that is on offer in Caithness Horizons lacks somewhat despite all the effort by the folkies in there.
Mystical Potato Head
18-Sep-10, 15:42
Correct you don't know about that.
The main principles of radiaiton protection are:
Justification
Optimisation
Limitation
You also fail to understand what the "hazard"is and have no idea what the associated risk is.
Me thinks Rheghead does know what the hazard(s) is/are and also what the associated risk(s) is/are,and what is wrong with his "time ,distance,shielding" explanation?
Its the one i've been given at the 3 nuclear establishments that i've worked at.
John Little
18-Sep-10, 15:48
And another thing.
It is not radioactive.
If it were then there would be an awful lot of people walking round Thurso who glow in the dark because they work inside the dome. Like my Dad used to, years ago when he was one of the men installing stuff inside it. (And no I do not mean he glowed in the dark)
I've been inside the dome and so have thousands and thousands of other people who have done the Dounreay tour.
It's a containment vessel, designed to stop a leak if it ever happened - only it never did because the graphite core reactor in there was so safe that it outclassed every other reactor existing at the time. Unfortunately it was also the most expensive which is why Thatcher put the lid on it and bought reactors from the US instead which were nowhere near as good as Dounreay, being adaptations of reactors used in US nuclear submarines.
There were leaks at Dounreay - but not in the Dome- or it would now be sealed for ever and anyone who went in there would die horribly.
What it could be is an exhibition centre on the nuclear industry which attracts tourists. It seems to have done that quite successfully for quite a number of years.
Then you will appreciate that exposing maintenance workers to a rusting radioactive monstrosity over long periods and in close proximity will mean that they will be increasing their dose to radiation. That isn't rocket science, even with your qualifications.[lol]
The sphere is coming down and DSRL has made the right decision.
You are the one who said you had radiation protection "quallies" - which is quite obviously not the case.
Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but please do not try and convince others that your opinion is based on a sound scientific understanding, as quite obviously it is not.
Me thinks Rheghead does know what the hazard(s) is/are and also what the associated risk(s) is/are,and what is wrong with his "time ,distance,shielding" explanation?
Its the one i've been given at the 3 nuclear establishments that i've worked at.
Time, Distance and shielding are three of the five methods of restricting EXTERNAL radiation exposure –they are not PRINCIPLES of radiation protection.
Seeing the little that is on offer in Caithness Horizons lacks somewhat despite all the effort by the folkies in there.
What else would you have included in Caithness horizens to give people a taste of the history and culture of caithness?
There was a lot of radioactive gas (short lived isotopes) in the Sphere during reactor operations. That's why it was sealed shut. The outside though is and always was clean. The inside is clean enough - could be cleaned further to allow public access. The thing people who work there may not appreciate is how excited and inspired people who do not work in industry can be by large industrial facilities. Take Tate Modern as an example. I've seen much more impressive turbine halls and reactor halls but not everyone is so priviledged.
There were leaks at Dounreay - but not in the Dome- or it would now be sealed for ever and anyone who went in there would die horribly.
Dismantle the Sphere, WHY ???
Cutting up the Sphere under contained conditions, sealing the contaminated sections in multi layers of polythene, building a storage area huge enough to take all these sections are just a few of the many problems that would be involved in dismantling the Sphere. Makes far more sense to leave it where it is, it's already a contained vessel in it's own right. Internal surface contamination can be removed or contained far more easily where it is than cutting up the Sphere would entail, it could also be used as a ready made storage area for other contaminated items removed from various parts of the site.
I can't see the point in removing radiologically contaminated items and materials from one site to another purpose built site where there is no previous history of contamination, still with all the associated radiological risks involved, putting it all in a huge storage facility, (still with risks) and storing it there.
There seems to be this fixation with a green field site, Doureay will never be a green field site, and even if it was eventually totally cleaned up, you would only be creating another site full of the radiologically contaminated materials removed from Dounreay and stored elsewhere, doesn't make sense.
nirofo.
John Little
18-Sep-10, 18:21
Yes - they told us when we went in that the pressure in there through the airlock was lower than outside for exactly that reason. However I went round after the reactor ceased operations so no probs - lots of people in there wearing the wee detector badges - but all in order. Very short lived isotopes indeed.
But there seem to be some folk here who think it's radioactive now - and it just ain't so.
I was under the impression that dome demolition was purely a financial issue.
It's a pity they've decided they can't afford to keep it up. I suggest a spectacular demolition with proceeds from the ticket sales going into new employment opportunities for the area.
I would still have preferred to turn it into a scared place for engineers and pagans alike, a sort of cathedral to match the dome of St Peter's in Rome.
Time, Distance and shielding are three of the five methods of restricting EXTERNAL radiation exposure –they are not PRINCIPLES of radiation protection.
Seems you are out voted, now you are playing on words to try to redeem yourself, sad...
There were leaks at Dounreay - but not in the Dome- or it would now be sealed for ever and anyone who went in there would die horribly.
Were?
The criminal negligence/recklessness still goes on, allegedly. They'll have their day in court.
http://news.stv.tv/scotland/highlands-islands/193807-dounreay-faces-court-action-after-radiation-scare/
Green_not_greed
18-Sep-10, 20:16
Well I'm glad its going to go.
A regular bit of fun in the 1980s (perhaps before) was to tell students that the north "leg" on the sphere was there to hold it in place, and if the fast reactor started to run out of control, there was a button to detonate a charge and blow the leg away, to allow the sphere to roll into the sea and cool down!
Now that would be a spectacular way for it to go...
John Little
18-Sep-10, 20:18
Were?
The criminal negligence/recklessness still goes on. They'll have their day in court.
http://news.stv.tv/scotland/highlands-islands/193807-dounreay-faces-court-action-after-radiation-scare/
It's my understanding that the Dome's reactor has been inactive for years.
I think your article is referring to the Dustbin.
Seems you are out voted, now you are playing on words to try to redeem yourself, sad...
Rheghead, admit it you no little if anything about radiation protection. You have no qualifications in radiation protection, and you are trying to bolster your profile by implying you are talking from a perspective of knowledge rather than uniformed opinion.
The fact that you have been found out is obviously grating.......which is why you have to keep coming back to try and redeem yourself.
I’ll give you another chance – tell me what the hazards associated with the sphere are, and how these manifest themselves in terms of risk.
Could we not paint it white and have a mini golf course INSIDE THE REACTOR??? INSIDE IT PEOPLE!
Rheghead, admit it you no little if anything about radiation protection. You have no qualifications in radiation protection, and you are trying to bolster your profile by implying you are talking from a perspective of knowledge rather than uniformed opinion.
The fact that you have been found out is obviously grating.......which is why you have to keep coming back to try and redeem yourself.
I’ll give you another chance – tell me what the hazards associated with the sphere are, and how these manifest themselves in terms of risk.
You must have stamped your foot there. You don't even know 'know', so why should I bother to feed your trolling?
I do, and I can answer - just admit you are a fraud and I'll tell you EXACTLY.
And another thing.
It is not radioactive.
This is a quote from the Dounreay website itself.
The future of the sphere itself, once the reactor inside has been stripped out, is currently the subject of debate. The sphere is recognised as a local landmark and a national symbol of atomic heritage but is contaminated with radioactivity.
http://www.dounreay.com/decommissioning/dounreay-fast-reactor
John Little
18-Sep-10, 20:55
Link please - now I am worried.
If it is contaminated then why did they let me and all those others inside it?
Contaminated with what? (sort of radioactivity?)
Why was I, along with all those others allowed to stand on top of the pile?
Can I sue?
Were?
The criminal negligence/recklessness still goes on, allegedly. They'll have their day in court.
http://news.stv.tv/scotland/highlands-islands/193807-dounreay-faces-court-action-after-radiation-scare/
Sorry, a bit confused. With regards to DFR Sphere. What exactly is the criminal negligence/recklessness that is ongoing? (allegedly)? The sphere is being decommissioned, (in accordance with statute law) so it follows that there will be interaction with classified workers to achieve that end. When decommissioning is complete, where is the residual hazard? And what then is the objection to leaving the shell as a memorial to the thousands of Caithnessians who worked there?
This is a quote from the Dounreay website itself.
.......and this is a man with 20 years radiation protection experience and qualifications to boot, who does not appear to understand the difference between radiation, contamination and radioactivity.
John Little
18-Sep-10, 21:08
Ah - right I have found what you refer to. My worries subside.
I would imagine that the contamination inside the dome has occurred since the removal of various things inside the dome. So the sphere is now performing its role of containment.
The steel itself is not radioactive- it's what has been allowed to escape inside.
As someone else said - that can be cleaned up.
The english is bad in that statement - The Dome itself is not contaminated, nor can it be. There is a level of contamination inside which may be removed.
Caithness did a remarkable thing and led the world. The dome is heritage.
Ah - right I have found what you refer to. My worries subside.
I would imagine that the contamination inside the dome has occurred since the removal of various things inside the dome. So the sphere is now performing its role of containment.
The steel itself is not radioactive- it's what has been allowed to escape inside.
As someone else said - that can be cleaned up.
The english is bad in that statement - The Dome itself is not contaminated, nor can it be. There is a level of contamination inside which may be removed.
Caithness did a remarkable thing and led the world. The dome is heritage.
Since corrosion is a real problem in the DFR dome, that contamination has gotten engrained into the rust. To remove that would take a lot of intensive surface removal back to bare metal. The dust would be a huge and expensive and hazardous problem.
What is on the Dounreay site is not a lie, it is fact, don't take my word for it just read it. It is contaminated with radioactivity, if it didn't pose a risk then why would they be bothered about it?
Seems one individual can't accept that! lol
John Little
18-Sep-10, 21:28
If what you say is true then they cannot demolish the dome until they have cleaned the corrosion anyway. To do so would release it into the atmosphere.
Ergo they have to clean it up.
This is what I read.
"The future of the sphere itself, once the reactor inside has been stripped out, is currently the subject of debate. The sphere is recognised as a local landmark and a national symbol of atomic heritage but is contaminated with radioactivity. A heritage strategy for the site is being prepared and this will identify a preferred option for its retention or removal"
Since retention is an option I conclude that it is at least a possibility.
You, apparently, differ.
http://www.dounreay.com/decommissioning/dounreay-fast-reactor
Where is the stuff on rust?
Since retention is an option I conclude that it is at least a possibility.
You, apparently, differ.
http://www.dounreay.com/decommissioning/dounreay-fast-reactor
I never said it wasn't a possibility anything is possible within reason, I just agree with DSRL that removal is the preferred option. I just acknowledge that health and safety would have been right at the heart of DSRL's decision as well as cost and heritage.
Where is the stuff on rust?
You just have to look at the dome to see the rust and I have heard some reports that DSRL were only playing the heritage card to appease the locals, the technical difficulties of retaining the dome were clearly cost-prohibitive due to corrosion and radioactive contamination.
John Little
18-Sep-10, 21:46
You have arrived at this conclusion by personal observation of the exterior of the dome.
Does the rust problem extend to the interior? Or is your statement empirical?
I should like to see some evidence of the extent of the interior problem; without it this is apocrypha.
I should like to see some evidence of the extent of the interior problem; without it this is apocrypha.
Some evidence of personal observation of the inside here.
http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?t=18733&highlight=dounreay
John Little
18-Sep-10, 22:06
LOL. You reference yourself?
That steel is thick and heavy. Exterior rust and stain is a matter of scouring and paint.
I repeat - if the corrosion is on the inside of the dome then they have to clean it completely before demolition. Cost is not an issue. It has to be completely decontaminated. They have to spend the money anyway.
I note your real reason though. You think the dome an eyesore.
Your objections to it are not founded on radiation or corrosion or cost but on aesthetics.
Which is a perfectly valid point of view. You do not need to egg it with anything else.
I just disagree with you. I find the dome aesthetically pleasing and a symbol of a time when Caithness was host to a great thing. A project at the cutting edge of the modern age. To destroy it would be an act of vandalism- especially as they have to clean it anyway.
Now I'm off to bed! Goodnight.
LOL. You reference yourself?
err no, you obviously didn't read it.
I made no claim to have seen the inside of the DFR but others have.
I note your real reason though. You think the dome an eyesore.
I find any rusting hulk an eyesore.
if the corrosion is on the inside of the dome then they have to clean it completely before demolition. Cost is not an issue. It has to be completely decontaminated. They have to spend the money anyway.
I can understand why DSRL would need to clean the sphere prior to dismantling by proper contractors who deal with decomissioning. That would be needed to cut down the risk of getting in contact with radioactive material during the demolition but cleaning and completely decontaminating are two completely different things and incurring two totally different budgets and risks.
Methinks people won't have to worry about it being removed in the 'near future'.
We just had a taste of what is to occur in the future over funding for many projects from out Financial Wizard..Come March 2011 we and many other Countries will see Major Cutbacks, that have never been seen before!
An economy and two Wars will see to it!
Beware the (Ides) Cutbacks) of March!
John Little
19-Sep-10, 08:04
"err no, you obviously didn't read it.
I made no claim to have seen the inside of the DFR but others have."
Yes - I did read. You were talking to someone about the dome. He gave you his own subjective opinion which you retail to me as 'evidence'
"I find any rusting hulk an eyesore."
It need not be rusting.
It could be put down to deliberate neglect in order to justify demolition.
"I can understand why DSRL would need to clean the sphere prior to dismantling by proper contractors who deal with decomissioning. That would be needed to cut down the risk of getting in contact with radioactive material during the demolition but cleaning and completely decontaminating are two completely different things and incurring two totally different budgets and risks."
Still has to be done though.
Doesn't it?
And once it's done, why not scrape and paint the outside too?
John Little
19-Sep-10, 09:45
I understand that the cost of upkeep to the Dome would be about £100,000 a year. That seems rather small potatoes if it were converted to be the heart of an exhibition and education centre on the nuclear industry and visitors were charged.
Or maybe Caithness does not need such unique attractions?
Further - there is, as previously mentioned, a very small group on Facebook called Save Dounreay's Dome.
I urge anyone here who wants to save a unique historic building to show your feelings by joining it. It should, imho, be a listed building and a world heritage site.
The decision to remove or retain the sphere at Dounreay was not made on radiological grounds. It was made on financial grounds. The sphere currently presents an insignificant radiological hazard, and this can obviously be reduced further by direct intervention or just by delay and decay. There is surface contamination on the interior of the sphere, and there is potentially contamination due to gaseous emissions from stack discharges and other fugitive emissions during the operation of the Dounreay site. The decontamination process is relatively basic abrasion of the surface and could easily be used to remove any residual contamination – this will have to be done anyway if the metal from the sphere is to be disposed of effectively, as why would they want to consign such a large amount of metal as low level waste? The main concern was thought to be that of tritium (H-3) diffusion into the metal of the sphere, a study carried out by UKAEA resulted in the following paper being written, Penetration of tritium (as tritiated water vapour) into low carbon steel and remediation using abrasive cleaning (Lewis, Warwick and Croudance) which was published in the Journal of Radiological Protection (J.Radiol.Prot 25 (2005) 161-168 it concluded that tritium was mainly held in the paint or outer 40micron layer of the metal. Radiologically Tritium is a weak beta emitter (so not an external hazard – so Time, distance and shielding are not required), with a radiological half-life of around 12 years (DFR stopped operation in 1977 and therefore around 3 half-lives have already significantly reduced the tritium source. Its biological half life is around 10 days which makes it a relatively benign internal hazard as the short biological half-life reduces the total effect of a single incident ingestion (assuming there was a significant source which there isn’t) and also prevents chronic exposure due to any environmental build up of tritium.
John Little
19-Sep-10, 10:02
Thankyou for that Scotsboy.
So basically it boils down to bean counting. The accountants have decided the Dome should go.
Seems to me that cleaning it, which has to be done anyway, fencing it off from the rest of the site and setting up a Scottish Nuclear museum would be a far better option.
Seems to me that this should not be financial decision but a political one.
Vox Populi.
But do the populi have a vox?
C60
Cs 137
beta emitters at DFR
And yes there are alpha emitters at DFR ...
Chemical hazards include NaK (and its disposal)
Physical hazards include asbestos
Not all the hazards are radiological.
And its freezing in there in winter!
C60
Cs 137
beta emitters at DFR
And yes there are alpha emitters at DFR ...
Chemical hazards include NaK (and its disposal)
Physical hazards include asbestos
Not all the hazards are radiological.
Nobody is disputing that Dadie, what is being discussed is the SPHERE and not its contents.
All those hazards would have to be dealt with before a shell could be left or dismantled.
It will take a long time....the people who made the choice to scrap the sphere will be gone by that time, and maybe others will decide it will be kept.
Depending on the economical climate and historical importance.
achingale
19-Sep-10, 11:30
A world heritage site due to its importance in UK history sounds like a good idea to me.
The decision to remove or retain the sphere at Dounreay was not made on radiological grounds. It was made on financial grounds. The sphere currently presents an insignificant radiological hazard, and this can obviously be reduced further by direct intervention or just by delay and decay. There is surface contamination on the interior of the sphere, and there is potentially contamination due to gaseous emissions from stack discharges and other fugitive emissions during the operation of the Dounreay site. The decontamination process is relatively basic abrasion of the surface and could easily be used to remove any residual contamination – this will have to be done anyway if the metal from the sphere is to be disposed of effectively, as why would they want to consign such a large amount of metal as low level waste? The main concern was thought to be that of tritium (H-3) diffusion into the metal of the sphere, a study carried out by UKAEA resulted in the following paper being written, Penetration of tritium (as tritiated water vapour) into low carbon steel and remediation using abrasive cleaning (Lewis, Warwick and Croudance) which was published in the Journal of Radiological Protection (J.Radiol.Prot 25 (2005) 161-168 it concluded that tritium was mainly held in the paint or outer 40micron layer of the metal. Radiologically Tritium is a weak beta emitter (so not an external hazard – so Time, distance and shielding are not required), with a radiological half-life of around 12 years (DFR stopped operation in 1977 and therefore around 3 half-lives have already significantly reduced the tritium source. Its biological half life is around 10 days which makes it a relatively benign internal hazard as the short biological half-life reduces the total effect of a single incident ingestion (assuming there was a significant source which there isn’t) and also prevents chronic exposure due to any environmental build up of tritium.
I'm glad you have changed your tune somewhat into a proper debate, you are right that tritium decays but what are the specific risks?
Rust is a complex substance of the iron substrate, oxygen and water.
What is the threshold beta energy needed to ionise DNA and other human tissue which may lead to cancer?
What is the energy value of the beta decay of tritium?
What percentage of the original tritium is likely to be still there due to beta decay since 1977? It is still a significant amount.
I know the answers, I'm seeing if you know the answers seeing as you trivialised the ionising properties of tritium.
You said the main concern was thought to be tritium, that implies there is other concerns present that are more deadly.
changilass
19-Sep-10, 14:01
Can you two stop playing tit for tat and just tell the rest of us what you know please.
If not can you take it to pm cos its getting boring now, fed up of checking out the thread to find out info only, to see a couple of bairns giving it 'I know more than you nah nah nah'.
John Little
19-Sep-10, 14:19
"The dome is a landmark that is recognised worldwide. There is an undertaking with Historic Scotland that the sphere will become a Listed Building once the reactor has been removed. So, when every other building here has gone, the dome will remain as a monument to the pioneers who established this site in the 1950s and led the world in fast reactor technology."
http://www.caithness.org/fpb/dounreay/historical/dfr.htm
So what happened?
I'm glad you have changed your tune somewhat into a proper debate, you are right that tritium decays but what are the specific risks?
Rust is a complex substance of the iron substrate, oxygen and water.
What is the threshold beta energy needed to ionise DNA and other human tissue which may lead to cancer?
What is the energy value of the beta decay of tritium?
What percentage of the original tritium is likely to be still there due to beta decay since 1977? It is still a significant amount.
I know the answers, I'm seeing if you know the answers seeing as you trivialised the ionising properties of tritium.
You said the main concern was thought to be tritium, that implies there is other concerns present that are more deadly.
There is insignificant radiological hazard associated with the sphere, the questions you pose can be found on wikipedia. The fact is that a SIGNIFICANTLY greater radiological hazards will be left at the Dounreay site.
Can you two stop playing tit for tat and just tell the rest of us what you know please.
If not can you take it to pm cos its getting boring now, fed up of checking out the thread to find out info only, to see a couple of bairns giving it 'I know more than you nah nah nah'.
I'll answer you (in my own childish way). Rheghed knows little if anything about radiation protection.........I know a wee bit more.
The situation regarding the sphere is that the NDA or whoever provides funding dont want to spend money on it. It does not present a significant radiological hazard.
I dont know much about radioactivity, though I do believe there's still quite a heady brew inside the pipework inside the sphere.
I read somewhere that the public wont be allowed anywhere near the site for 300 years because of pollution in the ground.
So what's the point trying to keep a giant ball? Who's going to pay for it? Unless it's a tombstone.
A radioactive no-man's land aint exactly up there with Edinburgh Castle or Nessie when it comes to tourist hotspots of Scotland.
There is insignificant radiological hazard associated with the sphere, the questions you pose can be found on wikipedia. The fact is that a SIGNIFICANTLY greater radiological hazards will be left at the Dounreay site.
you confirmed what I thought.:roll:
As I thought, you can't answer it.:roll:
What gives you the impression I can't answer the questions (totally not associated with this thread)? Someone who claims to have worked for over 20 years in radiation protection yet has little or no understanding of basic concepts?
The simple fact is that tritium is a low LET beta emitter, its beta is non-penetrating with a maximum energy of 18.6 keV and an average of 5.7 keV......yadayadayada.......if you think I don’t know about radiation protection I don’t really care. But I know that your understanding is poor, and operationally close to zilch.
The decision to demolish the sphere is one I disagree with; I would like to see it left as a dedication to the pioneering and excellent work carried out by workers who actually led the World in Fast Breeder Reactor Research, supported by a willing community who are now being abandoned by the UK government.
The decision to demolish the sphere is one I disagree with; I would like to see it left as a dedication to the pioneering and excellent work carried out by workers who actually led the World in Fast Breeder Reactor Research, supported by a willing community who are now being abandoned by the UK government.
A willing community who were told the Atomic station was being built for our commercial future when, in fact, it was built at Dounreay because no-one knew if it was safe or not and we locals were expendable.
Thurso was a lovely little town pre-atomic.
A willing community who were told the Atomic station was being built for our commercial future when, in fact, it was built at Dounreay because no-one knew if it was safe or not and we locals were expendable.
Thurso was a lovely little town pre-atomic.
I don’t think anyone would disagree that was what happened Gleber2, and I don't think there was any lies being told about it being built for a commercial future - it was obviously put there to be out of the way............I'm not sure even you are old enough to recall pre-atomic days;)
John Little
19-Sep-10, 16:05
Thurso was a lovely little town pre-atomic.
Still is ain't it?
Still is ain't it?
Its post-atomic now;)
I don’t think anyone would disagree that was what happened Gleber2, and I don't think there was any lies being told about it being built for a commercial future - it was obviously put there to be out of the way............I'm not sure even you are old enough to recall pre-atomic days;)
I was in primary six when we got our first Atomic classmates and, as my father worked at Dounreay from 1949 onwards, I can remember the first mention of "atomic". If you got my CD Blues D'Écosse, listen to 'Small Town Blues'. My true feelings on the subject are in that song. I was ten when it started.
Still is ain't it?
It is a question of perspective.
John Little
19-Sep-10, 16:31
Ah - well my perspective of Thurso is that it is a lovely little town.
I was in primary six when we got our first Atomic classmates and, as my father worked at Dounreay from 1949 onwards, I can remember the first mention of "atomic". If you got my CD Blues D'Écosse, listen to 'Small Town Blues'. My true feelings on the subject are in that song. I was ten when it started.
It is a question of perspective.
Got the CD and understand your feelings and perspective.........I don't have the benefit of seeing "both" sides in that debate, but consider that I have been lucky in so many ways die to the benefits that Dounreay brought to the County.
I was in primary six when we got our first Atomic classmates and, as my father worked at Dounreay from 1949 onwards, I can remember the first mention of "atomic". If you got my CD Blues D'Écosse, listen to 'Small Town Blues'. My true feelings on the subject are in that song. I was ten when it started.
It is a question of perspective.
Reminds me of the Waterboys song, Red Army Blues.............met my first American, well he looked a lot like me, he had the same kinda farmers faces, said he came from someplace called Hazard, Tennessee
Reminds me of the Waterboys song, Red Army Blues.............met my first American, well he looked a lot like me, he had the same kinda farmers faces, said he came from someplace called Hazard, Tennessee
The national pastime in the Glebe at that time was Atomic bashing. Did my bit before I started to pal aboot with them.
The national pastime in the Glebe at that time was Atomic bashing. Did my bit before I started to pal aboot with them.
I used to deliver papers in the Glebem and recall that being Jimag Budges grandson saved me on more than one occassion............and I was from Sprigpark:)
Ah - well my perspective of Thurso is that it is a lovely little town.
Three times as big as it was in 1953. You were, and I am sure you will be quick to correct me if I am wrong, round about 2 at the time and came to the West Public in 1956. I was in the West Public in Dallas's class at that time with very clear memories of the town. The whole town was my playground. How different it is now and I would not consider it an improvement.
I was an SA in DMTR dounreay until 1966 when I went completely against atomic energy and my gut feeling that it is not the way ahead is stronger than ever.
Whatever the type of system used, the high level waste pile will continue to grow which our descendants will have to cope with for 200,000 years.
We need more green energy not a proliferation of Atomic reactors to maintain our energy supply so that we can continue to need more and more power to supply our toys.
This Sphere is an eyesore and should be removed.
I used to deliver papers in the Glebem and recall that being Jimag Budges grandson saved me on more than one occassion............and I was from Sprigpark:)
Almost as bad as being Atomic or a Shorestreeter.:D
John Little
19-Sep-10, 17:46
Aye - the whole town was my playground too. Safe then.
Is it now?
Progress happens everywhere. The town is bigger. I imagine that a lot of people there now are children and grandchildren of atomics.
The Mudbloods and pure bloods thing still rumbling on?
As to the rest - a gander at Rheghead's thread on nuclear might be in order.
As to keeping the dome your objection is aesthetic.
I'm with Scotsboy entire on this matter. It's part of history and heritage.
But an eyesore?
I don't agree.
Aye - the whole town was my playground too. Safe then.
Is it now?
Progress happens everywhere. The town is bigger. I imagine that a lot of people there now are children and grandchildren of atomics.
The Mudbloods and pure bloods thing still rumbling on?
As to the rest - a gander at Rheghead's thread on nuclear might be in order.
As to keeping the dome your objection is aesthetic.
I'm with Scotsboy entire on this matter. It's part of history and heritage.
But an eyesore?
I don't agree.
It is relatively safe but not completely as it was then.
Yes, the town is bigger but it grew three times its size, in my book, too quickly.
There is no real divide between indigenous locals and Atomics any more as inter marriage started in the fifties and enough time has passed to remove any differences.
I have read a fair bit of Rhegheads posting and although I bow to his superior knowledge on the subject, I will stick to my own opinions.
My objection to the dome is more than aesthetic. An eyesore is in the eye of the beholder is it not. If it is left standing it will act as a lasting memorial to the failure of the concept of cheap energy from Fast reactor technology. I wonder how much electricity was fed to the grid from PFR.
It is relatively safe but not completely as it was then.
Yes, the town is bigger but it grew three times its size, in my book, too quickly.
There is no real divide between indigenous locals and Atomics any more as inter marriage started in the fifties and enough time has passed to remove any differences.
I have read a fair bit of Rhegheads posting and although I bow to his superior knowledge on the subject, I will stick to my own opinions.
My objection to the dome is more than aesthetic. An eyesore is in the eye of the beholder is it not. If it is left standing it will act as a lasting memorial to the failure of the concept of cheap energy from Fast reactor technology. I wonder how much electricity was fed to the grid from PFR.
That is a fair point but would suggest that is more to do with political inadequacy than the potential..........Japan have restarted their FBR and the Indians are forging ahead.
Whatever happens to it and us, one thing is sure we will all end as dust.
That is a fair point but would suggest that is more to do with political inadequacy than the potential..........Japan have restarted their FBR and the Indians are forging ahead.
Whatever happens to it and us, one thing is sure we will all end as dust.
At least the Japanese spent fuel rods won't be coming back to Dounreay for processing this time.
But will that dust be radioactive or not?:)
John Little
19-Sep-10, 18:34
Dust eh?
I mind the night of massive thunder crashes some time in the late 1950s when our neighbour came crying for my mother. She had been reading somewhere of a prophecy, maybe by the Brahan seer, that one day there shall be naught but black dust between Inverness and John o Groats.
She thought that Dounreay was going to explode, that her husband had gone and that Thurso was next. Very upset she was.
Well we ain't dust yet - black or otherwise.
Of course it will, natural radioactivity is all around us, and we all have radioactive K-40 in our bodies.
At least the Japanese spent fuel rods won't be coming back to Dounreay for processing this time.
But will that dust be radioactive or not?:)
No doubt Dounreay would be the preferred option by the residents of Tokai-mura!
The simple fact is that tritium is a low LET beta emitter, its beta is non-penetrating with a maximum energy of 18.6 keV and an average of 5.7 keV......yadayadayada........
Then you will confirm that it is non-penetrating only through the skin but it can enter through the lungs as airborne and that the beta energy decay of tritium is higher than the threshold ionization energy of human tissue?
It is ionizing radiation and can therefore cause ionization if it enters the body............please don't try and take this to a discussion on the cancer potential from ionization of a single cell..............ionization of human tissues creates free radicals...........but the body also has a built in repair mechanisms.
Low LET radiation has an incredibly low chance of causing double helix DNA breaks.
It is ionizing radiation and can therefore cause ionization if it enters the body............please don't try and take this to a discussion on the cancer potential from ionization of a single cell..............ionization of human tissues creates free radicals...........but the body also has a built in repair mechanisms.
Low LET radiation has an incredibly low chance of causing double helix DNA breaks.
And that is your selling point to convince the general public that the DFR sphere is not a radiological hazard when DSRL on their own website clearly state that
The sphere is recognised as a local landmark and a national symbol of atomic heritage but is contaminated with radioactivity.
I'm sure if it wasn't a radiological hazard or even a concern then DRSL would say so and wouldn't say it was radioactive in connection to making the sphere a symbol of atomic heritage. jeesh
Of course it will, natural radioactivity is all around us, and we all have radioactive K-40 in our bodies.
Indeed it is. I was well amused when I heard on the News that the pigeons around Sellafield were as active as the low level waste.
If it's going to be too expensive to maintain I suggest they put a giant genetically modified hamster in the dome and let it roll it out to the North Atlantic. If the sea water is as potent as some claim it will soon rust away and the radioactive rubbish will be spread out and be dispersed over the entire North Atlantic.
The only problem I foresee with this solution is the outcry from the Scottish Society for the Protection of Giant Genetically Modified Hamsters.
Alternatively we could put the dome on a giant axle and connect it to the grid with the hamster inside. If it works we can construct more domes and breed more giant hamsters and we have a sustainable energy source that doesn't rely on how windy it is. :cool:
That's two problems solved in one. :)
If it's going to be too expensive to maintain I suggest they put a giant genetically modified hamster in the dome and let it roll it out to the North Atlantic. If the sea water is as potent as some claim it will soon rust away and the radioactive rubbish will be spread out and be dispersed over the entire North Atlantic.
The only problem I forsee with this solution is the outcry from the Scottish Society for the Protection of Giant Genetically Modified Hamsters.
Alternatively we could put the dome on a giant axle and connect it to the grid with the hamster inside. If it works we can construct more domes and breed more giant hamsters and we have a sustainable energy source that doesn't rely on how windy it is. :cool:
That's two problems solved in one. :)
I like that idea a lot. The only issue I see; is sufficient supply of the giant genetically modified hamsters.;
We will need to initiate some kind of fast breeder programme. I think Rheggie has started a poll about it.:eek:
oldmarine
20-Sep-10, 19:50
This is a quote from the Dounreay website itself.
http://www.dounreay.com/decommissioning/dounreay-fast-reactor
Contaminated with radioactivity does not speak too well for this object.
I've been out of this long and winding thread but I just had an idea.
Rent the thing out.
Then it would be THE DOME OF THE PROFIT.
My wife just told me to stop laughing at my own jokes...
John Little
20-Sep-10, 20:18
Infidel- the imams are writing the fatwa against you right now.......
Cultural criteria for World Heritage Status
* (i) "represents a masterpiece of human creative genius"
* (ii) "exhibits an important interchange of human values, over a span of time, or within a cultural area of the world, on developments in architecture or technology, monumental arts, town-planning, or landscape design"
* (iii) "bears a unique or exceptional testimony to a cultural tradition or to a civilization which is living or which has disappeared"
* (iv) "is an outstanding example of a type of building, architectural, or technological ensemble or landscape which illustrates a significant stage in human history"
* (v) "is an outstanding example of a traditional human settlement, land-use, or sea-use which is representative of a culture, or human interaction with the environment especially when it has become vulnerable under the impact of irreversible change"
* (vi) "is directly or tangibly associated with events or living traditions, with ideas, or with beliefs, with artistic and literary works of outstanding universal significance"
Is the Dounreay dome at odds with some of the criteria but satisfies others?
John Little
21-Sep-10, 07:58
I hardly dare reply in case you think I am attacking you, but it now appears to me that your post plays Devil's advocate.
Looking at that list it seems to me that a case could be made for the Dome on every single criterion.
John Little
21-Sep-10, 08:53
Actually Rheghead- I have decided to impose a silence on myself on this matter pro tem.
You implied that people did not seem too interested - and I'm getting the sneaking feeling that you are right. The Facebook group is also struggling to get members.
I'm beginning to get the impression that most people up there don't feel strongly enough to pursue this.
Without community support, saving the Dome goes nowhere.
And without community support it becomes clear that I am poking my nose into a local issue. Whatever I may feel, living in Kent and 40 years from Caithness, is of little importance and it ain't my place to do the ranting.
I have written to the British department of World Heritage at UNESCO, drawing their attention to this matter. I also intend to write to Historic Scotland expressing concern and regret.
But unless it becomes clear that the dome is wanted in Caithness, I've said my piece, and saying more at this time is of no value.
I dont "do" facebook!
Or twitter....
So where do I show support other than here?
where do I show my support please?
Pull it down and put up yet another wind farm !!....
C3...:eek:
John Little
21-Sep-10, 10:26
I dont "do" facebook!
Or twitter....
So where do I show support other than here?
where do I show my support please?
Well it seems to me that if any local person wanted to start a thread with a title such as 'Stop the Dounreay dome being demolished' then it might attract a fair deal of attention and the community might be minded to discuss it. That way it might be possible to guage how feelings run.
As I am not a local I will not do it.
Valerie Campbell
21-Sep-10, 12:47
You can do it on here! By taking part in this thread you're voicing your thoughts anyway. Dounreay are interest in local people's thoughts on the subject and will take on board any suggestions you make. Seems that the community is pretty split though. I'm a historian and would like to preserve as much as I can the fine work done by pioneers, and Dounreay is part of that. But if local feelings are that it should be lost, then so be it. I think it would be such a shame to lose such an iconic monument, and I'm well aware of costs, dangers etc and the Acts which may be compromised. But let's face it, once it's gone, it'll be gone, and forgotten, forever. The campaign to Save Dounreay's Dome may get nowhere but at least we've tried.
It seems to me that a facebook campaign to save the dome is like shutting the barn door after the horse was bolted, there was a consultation process that took years to get to Dounreay's decision. We all know the Dounreay dome could, would and should be saved if enough money was found to throw at it and comparison to other monuments was equally comparable without the practical problems.
The dome will be still around for another 2 decades being used by DSRL but it sounds as if restoration needs to start now rather than in 20 years time. Access would be impossible for that purpose. I doubt if the dome will last by then.
I think one of those ePetitions would be a better idea for a campaign then everyone can sign it.
John Little
25-Sep-10, 15:28
For the record. Copy of email sent to UNESCO (World Heritage) and to Historic Scotland.
Dear Sir/Madam
I would be most grateful if you could pass this on to whoever seems most appropriate to respond, but I wish to register a concern.
In the late 1950s the world's first fast breeder reactor was built at Dounreay in Caithness and a steel containment vessel, the dome, was built round it. The site is being decommissioned and currently the inside of the dome has a certain level of radioactive contamination which will have to be removed; this cost is inevitable.
On the Dounreay website there is a statement to the effect that the Dome was to be preserved by the site restorees and Historic Scotland- and so it should be.
The dome is an icon of Northern Scotland, and of immense historic significance to the nuclear industry and to the advancement of science. As a symbol of progress in the Second industrial revolution, it could hardly be matched.
Yet it seems that once decontaminated the Dome is ultimately to be torn down. The reason, as far as I can see, is cost - one source says it would cost £100,000 a year to run.
Yet Dounreay operated a very successful visitor centre for years, and, as the heart of a nuclear museum could probably still do so.
To me this seems akin to demolishing Darby's blast furnace or Cromford Mill.
I just wanted to bring this to your attention and hope that someone may take the time to examine this demolition proposal and the alternatives if any.
yours sincerely
etc
Well done John Little for remembering your heritage. Your as much a part of the cultural heritage of caithness as me or Gleber2 and your opinion is just as valid as Rhegheads or ours. There are thousands of people all over the world grateful for the work done at Dounreay and I use the word work in it's loosest terms, :lol:
It may take time for any opposition against the dome being demolished to kick in but I firmly believe the people of caithness would back a campaign to save the dome.
Rhegheads opposition was brilliantly countered by scotsboy and Glebers opposition has to be considered in the light of his doom and gloom scenario for the human race.
I'm for keeping the dome because its a symbol of something very special in human history, and it happened in Caithness.
Sorry, Corrie
Too many buildings and trees around Hyde Park = too much rotor (wind turbulence). You see... the old Dounrey site is flat and open to the powerful constant blasts off the sea - ideal for wind turbines.
Everyone should be pleased at this news.....at least it is being replaced by 100's of lovely (not) wind turbines.
Take the dome down by all means, it has no further use up here but pleeeeeeeeeeze take all the wind turbines with it and stick them up in Hyde Park or somewhere.
C3.....:eek::roll::(
Rhegheads opposition was brilliantly countered by scotsboy
Sorry I didn't see that one, he wrote a lot but never actually said much to counter DRSL's position.
Sorry I didn't see that one,
Well you wouldn't, would you? :lol:
Well you wouldn't, would you? :lol:
Well I am only the messenger, you can read it for yourself on the DSRL's website. SB didn't present a convincing case on the radiological grounds which was stated on the DSRL's website unless he is a bigger expert on radiation than what they have to offer.
All joking aside, but he probably is.
John Little
02-Oct-10, 10:10
Membership of the Facebook group has more than doubled in the last week; small in numbers but mathematically significant.
The Dounreay Ball may yet roll.......
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=141657212543519&ref=ts
This is the kind of thread than needs to simmer because eventually it's going to come to the boil.
Most people have other things to worry about than the fate of the dome but the domes such an integral part of Caithness modern history that I believe most of them would want to keep it there as a historical monument to the pioneers of the atomic age and the cultural effects it had on a Scottish county and a tourist trap to boot.
Keep picking away at it and dont let the glebers get you down.
Mon the atomicers show your support.
It will take a lot more effort to save the dome than just setting up a page on Facebook. Getting ones bottom off ones seat and forming an action committee and campaign fund to lobby the public, local institutions and national governmental bodies would be a start.
Actions speak louder than words.
John Little
02-Oct-10, 17:06
In far Caithness’s pleasant land
There came to work, a nuclear band
The sod they cut on bleak Dounreay
To make e power – e nuclear way
The winter there was cold and raw
They lived in huts, lips chapped and sore
The snow piled high on th’old airfield
But they didna give way- or yield
They built and made upon this station,
That which made Scotland a nuclear nation
The first fast breeder in the world
Progress showed her banners unfurled
On her shores and cold damp clay,
Caithness showed how – and led the way
‘Ere long the great Dome was Scotland’s pride
Great work and talents in’t did abide.
Caithness prospered- and her folk did too.
The work brought benefits – not a few
Children were raised, and houses bought
And peoples’ aspirations were sought.
On Caithness coast was something unique
In all the world you’d search and seek
But where’er your feet found their home
You’d see nothing like th’iconic Dome.
Heroes they were- who builded then
Pioneers among the race of men
They made a great mark in Alba’s History
And harnessed for good, the atom’s mystery.
But oh time’s chariot moved to pass-
A new age came – and then alas
The children of the folk of old
Cared nothing for the past so bold.
There came a breed of accountancy men
Who looked at the Dome, counted cash, and then
Looked at th’heroic work with a frown
And decided to wreck it and tear it down.
Of this race’s aspirations it symbols the best
Yet there comes there now nary a protest
Care ye not what your fathers wrought?
Then anything’s for nothing and all’s for naught.
To preserve this thing – t’would cost a pittance
To see achievement’s proud continuance
What giants made at fair Dounreay
Blithely stand? And see swept away?
Rise up and speak – you people of Thurso
Tell them your thoughts and even more so-
Stand by the Dome and show your power
Your history calls you – and now’s the hour!
Membership of the Facebook group has more than doubled in the last week; small in numbers but mathematically significant.
The Dounreay Ball may yet roll.......
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=141657212543519&ref=ts
I think the Dome will need more than a Facebook page with 25 members. Sadly. :(
John Little
02-Oct-10, 18:08
But at least you looked. Where Crayola leads others may follow. ;)
John Little
02-Oct-10, 18:55
And of course - you could join..............
Niall Fernie
02-Oct-10, 23:19
... and you could invite your friends to join. I did and the membership doubled.
Stick to your day job John, your not as good a poet as our resident poet Tubthumper [lol]
John Little
03-Oct-10, 08:33
Stick to your day job John, your not as good a poet as our resident poet Tubthumper [lol]
LOL! I know - I would never make such a claim.
But I seem to find- in the northern clime
That folk oft take notice- of a doggerel rhyme.......
John Little
03-Oct-10, 10:25
... and you could invite your friends to join. I did and the membership doubled.
There seems to be no mechanism for inviting all your friends - and I have loads - though few from Caithness. I have stuck Save the Dome on my Facebook status. So if loads of Sassenachs start to join you'll know why. :)
John Little
03-Oct-10, 10:30
I think the Dome will need more than a Facebook page with 25 members. Sadly. :(
It's 28 now......
John Little
03-Oct-10, 11:22
29............................ going up
29............................ going up
I shall join this noble cause to make it 30!
Save the domes!
John Little
03-Oct-10, 13:40
Well done Logical -lucky number 30. Now the ball will really start to roll. ;)
I dont want the sphere
Anywhere around here
Pull it down
To the ground
Let it be gone
Forever!!!
C3...:roll:;)
oldmarine
03-Oct-10, 14:27
in far caithness’s pleasant land
there came to work, a nuclear band
the sod they cut on bleak dounreay
to make e power – e nuclear way
the winter there was cold and raw
they lived in huts, lips chapped and sore
the snow piled high on th’old airfield
but they didna give way- or yield
they built and made upon this station,
that which made scotland a nuclear nation
the first fast breeder in the world
progress showed her banners unfurled
on her shores and cold damp clay,
caithness showed how – and led the way
‘ere long the great dome was scotland’s pride
great work and talents in’t did abide.
Caithness prospered- and her folk did too.
The work brought benefits – not a few
children were raised, and houses bought
and peoples’ aspirations were sought.
On caithness coast was something unique
in all the world you’d search and seek
but where’er your feet found their home
you’d see nothing like th’iconic dome.
Heroes they were- who builded then
pioneers among the race of men
they made a great mark in alba’s history
and harnessed for good, the atom’s mystery.
But oh time’s chariot moved to pass-
a new age came – and then alas
the children of the folk of old
cared nothing for the past so bold.
There came a breed of accountancy men
who looked at the dome, counted cash, and then
looked at th’heroic work with a frown
and decided to wreck it and tear it down.
Of this race’s aspirations it symbols the best
yet there comes there now nary a protest
care ye not what your fathers wrought?
Then anything’s for nothing and all’s for naught.
To preserve this thing – t’would cost a pittance
to see achievement’s proud continuance
what giants made at fair dounreay
blithely stand? And see swept away?
Rise up and speak – you people of thurso
tell them your thoughts and even more so-
stand by the dome and show your power
your history calls you – and now’s the hour!
lovely poem....
John Little
03-Oct-10, 14:53
Well thankyou - someone appreciates my art......;)....
Come on now folks - don't be like Corrie,
Show a sign and make him sorry
Clans of Gunn, Sinclair and Betty Boop-
Show some willing and join our group;
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=141657212543519
John Little
03-Oct-10, 15:17
Now we are 31................
John Little
03-Oct-10, 16:18
The web is a wonderful thing. I just invited 537 people to join the Dounreay group because it's our nation's heritage.
I wonder how many will.
John Little
03-Oct-10, 17:28
Anyone want to be number 40?
lucky number 30
Really:cool:? Or did you make that up?
The web is a wonderful thing. I just invited 537 people to join the Dounreay group because it's our nation's heritage.
I wonder how many will.
Nice one, if we had numbers like that then we have a good chance of getting our point across. Strength in numbers people!
I am sure that some enterprising architect could turn it into a unique hotel and conference centre.... any takers?
I know!! Since Tesco converted the old Hoover building in London into a supermarket - here is the ideal site! Maintain a heritage building; have a unique take on the multi-level shopping mall, ready-made car park. What about it Tesco? Game for a challenge?
John Little
03-Oct-10, 17:53
Really:cool:? Or did you make that up?
Nice one, if we had numbers like that then we have a good chance of getting our point across. Strength in numbers people!
You must be the judge.....
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest_01/droke022801.html
Now we are 40.
You must be the judge.....
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest_01/droke022801.html
Now we are 40.
Interesting and weird in one. I claim the number 30 in that case.
Make that 42!
John Little
03-Oct-10, 18:27
Yes 42 - my step-grandaughter evidently has a sense of history too.
She came to my father's funeral three years ago.
He was one of the men who installed the instrumentation in the Dome; he was there on the night it reached criticality.
History.
We stand on the shoulders of giants.
And together we continue to grow to 46.
The rate of member growth has now gone up dramatically!
Kudos to you John Little!
John Little
03-Oct-10, 19:15
Anyone want to be number 50?
John Little
03-Oct-10, 19:21
Now we are 50.
Might be worth saying the link to join the group is: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=141657212543519
Just in case anyone was wondering what all the commotion was about.
Now we are 50.
Make that 58.....
John Little
03-Oct-10, 21:16
61 now. Come on folks - join the group.....
61 now. Come on folks - join the group.....
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzz.....wake me up when it gets to 10000 John!!!
C3....;):lol::lol:
John Little
03-Oct-10, 21:32
Of course I will.....:cool:
67! This growth is somewhat exponential.
John Little
03-Oct-10, 22:56
I'm going to bed now but I want to leave this thought to any people out there who might have power over this decision.
It's my understanding that when the dome is decontaminated it would cost £100,000 a year to maintain.
Of course the costs of that might be defrayed by opening part of the site as a museum. It does not take many visitors to raise £100,000...in a year.
But my thought to DSRL is a simple one if cost is an issue. If there were an official DSRL or Historic Scotland linked Friends of the Dome group raising money for its upkeep then I would line up to join the subscribers....and I do not think I would be alone.
It's my understanding that when the dome is decontaminated it would cost £100,000 a year to maintain.
Of course the costs of that might be defrayed by opening part of the site as a museum. It does not take many visitors to raise £100,000...in a year.
The existing site is in Caithness Horizons and it had 40,000 'visitors' in its first showcase year.
40,000 was not real visitor but blips on a counter on the front door which included staff access statistics, people going to meetings, cafe visitors, virtually anyone. Probably genuinely interested persons in fast breeder stuff was less than 10% about 4000. Out of that you got to cover the costs of the visitor centre and you have got nothing to paint the dome. Pessimistic I know but that is what you are up against.
How about dismantling it and relocating the dome near Thurso ? It would make a great auditorium for local concerts.
John Little
04-Oct-10, 06:56
I assume that DSRL and Historic Scotland knew that before they undertook to preserve it. Seems to me that the change of mind is for financial reasons.
Investment and advertisement- and some imagination outside ledgers?
We are 73 this morning. From 26 yesterday morning.
Make that 74!
John Little
04-Oct-10, 12:43
Number 80 - please come in - the Facebook group needs you.....
John Little
04-Oct-10, 12:46
WoW - deeply impressed with the speed!! Thankyou - now we are 80.
John Little
04-Oct-10, 18:35
85!
We could be 100 by bedtime......
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=141657212543519
Now it's 86.....
What is all this 'we are one extra member' business before you have finished your post?
John Little
04-Oct-10, 19:29
Twice now it's happened! Now be careful - remember the Red Comyn when he dooted!
(88 now)
What is all this 'we are one extra member' business before you have finished your post?
Another exercise in getting his post ratings on the Org up I think.....sad :~(
John Little
04-Oct-10, 19:37
LOL! I don't even know what they are.
But it's 90 now. keep coming folks.....
Another exercise in getting his post ratings on the Org up I think.....sad :~(
I could do with the post number actually - all part of my quest to be a 1K orger you see.
So, to keep you updated, we are now at a very impressive 126 members.
John has done a lot for this so you should all lay off a little maybe, hes just a man doing his best for a cause that he believes in. He doesnt gain anything from it.
I think it's important that the Dounreay Dome is saved, and preserved as a museum and monument to British scientific vision and genius. To demolish it would be a crime, and disrespectful to the pioneering efforts of the scientists and engineers who created it, and to the dedication of those employed there over the years.
My father worked at DFR, right from the very early days, and was there when it reached criticality in 1959. I grew up with Dounreay, and eventually worked there myself (in the office building right next to the DFR Dome, at one point!). My husband and I have also taken the tour inside the iconic sphere.
I would hate to see the Dome meet its doom! It should be retained as a proud reminder of Caithness's role in the development of nuclear energy!
TudorRose
16-Nov-10, 10:05
I think it's important that the Dounreay Dome is saved, and preserved as a museum and monument to British scientific vision and genius. To demolish it would be a crime, and disrespectful to the pioneering efforts of the scientists and engineers who created it, and to the dedication of those employed there over the years.
Well said Sporran. My sentiments exactly. :)
rob murray
18-Nov-10, 16:14
Not to many posts on this one…here’s my thoughts…I was in Belfast four years ago and undertook a city tour ( bus trip ) a significant part of the tour was centered around the troubles ( ironic eh…yesterdays battlefields are today’s tourist attractions ) and the old ( derelict ) ship yards where the Titanic was built. The tour guide actually pointed out lumps of rusted metal in the distance (that’s all there was to see really) which, according to her, were the remains of cranes used in the Titanic build. Point is, that there is a significant demand for this type of tourism experience. Ie The remnants of past glories…ex ship yards, closed down mines, long gone mills…..and a de commissioned nuclear reactor !!! As has been posted, the tourism centre, as is, at UKAEA, is a big attraction and will almost certainly continue to be so…the Dome plays centre part in this tourism experience…it wouldn’t be the same if a tour guide points to a hole in the landscape and says “that’s where the Dome was” !!!
Secondly, and personally, I see the Dome as a celebration of the many thousands of locals who worked there, people who were not remotely connected with “pushing back the frontiers of science”…. nor really understood the science or what was going on. The process workers, progress chasers, storemen, checkpoint attendants, painters, joiners, scaffolders, riggers etc who saw Dounreay as a means to the job security needed to live and bring up families. Without dispute, Caithness pre 1953ish was a back water, with little job prospects, a declining population, poor economic growth prospects, marked by a fishing industry at least 50 years past its hey day, a declining agric sector and a long gone major employer ( slate quarrying ) Dounreay gave new jobs / jobs not heard of in Caithness ( process worker ? progress chaser ? ) job security and, relative to life outside “the gate”, great working conditions…hell they gave you boots, overalls, a canteen, inside toilets, wash rooms, pensions, shift work ( if applicable ) over time and prospects. (most of the jobs on offer were monotonously boring….but that’s another point !! )
Thousands worked there over the years, some short term ( a stop gap job and out before life’s responsibilities sucked you in for life ) others, really for a working life. Dounreay to me and many Caithnessians, is not about pushing back frontiers, but knowing where to get a drink on site on a Sunday morning, where to get into a card school, putting one over the “management”, how to avoid work by setting your tools on the ground and then ing off for a fly kip,all the great characters and their exploits, long week ends spent in the Viewfirth / Dounreay club….real stories about real people, that will never be told, because the history of the working class is never listened to..
The Dome...is a celebration of life!
Ps I have climbed to the top of the Dome and PFR..great crack !!
achingale
18-Nov-10, 19:20
Not to many posts on this one…here’s my thoughts…I was in Belfast four years ago and undertook a city tour ( bus trip ) a significant part of the tour was centered around the troubles ( ironic eh…yesterdays battlefields are today’s tourist attractions ) and the old ( derelict ) ship yards where the Titanic was built. The tour guide actually pointed out lumps of rusted metal in the distance (that’s all there was to see really) which, according to her, were the remains of cranes used in the Titanic build. Point is, that there is a significant demand for this type of tourism experience. Ie The remnants of past glories…ex ship yards, closed down mines, long gone mills…..and a de commissioned nuclear reactor !!! As has been posted, the tourism centre, as is, at UKAEA, is a big attraction and will almost certainly continue to be so…the Dome plays centre part in this tourism experience…it wouldn’t be the same if a tour guide points to a hole in the landscape and says “that’s where the Dome was” !!!
Secondly, and personally, I see the Dome as a celebration of the many thousands of locals who worked there, people who were not remotely connected with “pushing back the frontiers of science”…. nor really understood the science or what was going on. The process workers, progress chasers, storemen, checkpoint attendants, painters, joiners, scaffolders, riggers etc who saw Dounreay as a means to the job security needed to live and bring up families. Without dispute, Caithness pre 1953ish was a back water, with little job prospects, a declining population, poor economic growth prospects, marked by a fishing industry at least 50 years past its hey day, a declining agric sector and a long gone major employer ( slate quarrying ) Dounreay gave new jobs / jobs not heard of in Caithness ( process worker ? progress chaser ? ) job security and, relative to life outside “the gate”, great working conditions…hell they gave you boots, overalls, a canteen, inside toilets, wash rooms, pensions, shift work ( if applicable ) over time and prospects. (most of the jobs on offer were monotonously boring….but that’s another point !! )
Thousands worked there over the years, some short term ( a stop gap job and out before life’s responsibilities sucked you in for life ) others, really for a working life. Dounreay to me and many Caithnessians, is not about pushing back frontiers, but knowing where to get a drink on site on a Sunday morning, where to get into a card school, putting one over the “management”, how to avoid work by setting your tools on the ground and then ing off for a fly kip,all the great characters and their exploits, long week ends spent in the Viewfirth / Dounreay club….real stories about real people, that will never be told, because the history of the working class is never listened to..
The Dome...is a celebration of life!
Ps I have climbed to the top of the Dome and PFR..great crack !!
Well said Rob! That is a most heartfelt plea to save the dome and perhaps it is time for the working men's stories to be told. On here would be good but then again I am just nosy ;)
rob murray
19-Nov-10, 18:55
Glasgow is proud of being associated with large scale ship building ... ie Clyde built...even when compared to the pre war hey day, when today there is now very little ship building on the Clyde, they still hold dear to the statement as it defines them like no other can !...In the statement Clyde built, they celebrate the role of the ordinary people who built the ships.
Who built the dome ? / who contributed in the process... ordinary working people..so the Dome should stay as a permanent memorial to their industry and efforts. They built it, not the desk bound ( however much they pushed back the frontiers of engineering science ) guys, the ordinary jocks working in all weathers and in all hours actually built it !!!
As Merl Haggard put it ............"This one's for the working man"
rob murray
22-Nov-10, 10:18
I know that various site ativities have been spun off into self standing businesses...ISaT with CSC, UKAEA pensions, and Naver Training to name but three. Is there not a case to spin the existing tourism centre off as a business..as supported by DSLR agreeing to pay a % of the maintance costs, this could involve the Dome as well. Tourism is big business. My own personal view is that it will take years to re build a diversified economy to mitigate the dounreay jobs loss and every job created is a positive step ( even tourist related ! )
achingale
27-Nov-10, 19:42
I saw the announcement that Sir Tam Dalyell, former Labour MP, is supporting the group on Facebook so it looks like it could be gathering momentum.
Yup, Sir Tam Dalyell is quoted as saying: "the decision to demolish is wrong".
Very strong support from Sir Tam, also over 300 members on Facebook now.
The website has been updated too: www.dounreaydome.org.uk (http://www.dounreaydome.org.uk)
A new page added to share your thoughts or comments (http://www.dounreaydome.org.uk/thoughts.htm), if you have anything you wish to share please get in touch.
oldmarine
28-Nov-10, 15:20
I saw the announcement that Sir Tam Dalyell, former Labour MP, is supporting the group on Facebook so it looks like it could be gathering momentum.
I don't care much for Facebook and try to stay away from it. I guess I'm too old for this stuff.
Well done my man. Facebook is just a Fad that will eventually disappear. Too much personal info on it and the Theft thereon. Not to mention the weirdos trolling for young 'Things'.
Contamination/ there appears to be some arguments over that. I see JL mentions....When the dome is 'Decontaminated', it will cost 100k to maintain...if it can ever be DE!
Steel rusts and looks unsightly/ perhaps it can be maintained for a number of years, but one day it must meet it's demise.
I am not a naysayer.....just being realistic.....am sure there are lots who disagree.
You may find that as in many other Countries, decontamination is just too expensive...some Countries sink their subs at the deepest part of the Ocean. On Sites.....They put up barbed/ razor wire and post 2/4 Security Guards on it....likely for 10 thousand + years!
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