View Full Version : Isreali Blockade of Lebanon
what on earth is going on in the Lebanon? Israel have blockaded The whole country and bombed the airport? Is this really necessary to get back their soldier? Is this a completely uneccessary escalation and a hostile act of war by a country who appear to be intent on causing misery and war wherever they look? or is it a justifiable act? I am baffled to be honest
what on earth is going on in the Lebanon? Israel have blockaded The whole country and bombed the airport? Is this really necessary to get back their soldier? Is this a completely uneccessary escalation and a hostile act of war by a country who appear to be intent on causing misery and war wherever they look? or is it a justifiable act? I am baffled to be honest
I think Israel has gone a bit OTT, but think of it Squidge, Israel is surrounded by hostile arab countries who's one aim is the destruction of the state of Israel. They must retaliate as they did in the Yom Kypur(sp)* war when the might of Egypt attacked, and were trounced soundly, and if it had not been for the UN and others Israel would have gone all the way in to Cairo.
I am not promoting what Israel has done in any way, but when your backs against the wall, needs must. A blockade to me is a none violent way of getting your point across.Israel has adpoted an old Scots saying "Wha Dawr Meddle Wi Me".
how is bombing an airport non-violent?
Israel has adopted nothing from the Scots. They "adopt" $5-6 billion dollars a year from the US taxpayers to subsidise their army. They would not have the capabilities to blockade anything without Americas "grants" would they? So, one wonders how much say Israels grantors have in how and when they use their money & arms?
what on earth is going on in the Lebanon? Israel have blockaded The whole country and bombed the airport? Is this really necessary to get back their soldier? Is this a completely uneccessary escalation and a hostile act of war by a country who appear to be intent on causing misery and war wherever they look? or is it a justifiable act? I am baffled to be honest
Squidge, I was just getting around to reading today's news and read the report on the bombings. I totally agree with you. I know that we hear of these things almost daily, but this one has frightened me. I don't think that any of us even begin to understand the politcal, religious and cultural issues at work in the Middle East. Beyond that, I really don't know what to say. I am not a big fan of wishing for peace, then walking away from taking any responsibility to help make it happen. But in this case I don't know what any of us can do but hope.
j4bberw0ck
13-Jul-06, 18:19
how is bombing an airport non-violent?
On a point of information; they've bombed the runway, not the airport. If you're blockading a country, it stops flights in or out.
It's also true to say that Hezbollah, recognized universally as a terrorist organisation whose stated aim is to sweep Israel into the sea, and which is committed to suicide bombings involving (amongst others) the use of children, has never ceased hostility against Israel.
pultneytooner
13-Jul-06, 19:28
what on earth is going on in the Lebanon? Israel have blockaded The whole country and bombed the airport? Is this really necessary to get back their soldier? Is this a completely uneccessary escalation and a hostile act of war by a country who appear to be intent on causing misery and war wherever they look? or is it a justifiable act? I am baffled to be honest
Two soldiers were captured, eight killed and two injured.
what on earth is going on in the Lebanon? Israel have blockaded The whole country and bombed the airport? Is this really necessary to get back their soldier? Is this a completely uneccessary escalation and a hostile act of war by a country who appear to be intent on causing misery and war wherever they look? or is it a justifiable act? I am baffled to be honest
Israel captures some Lebonese Arabs and puts them in prison their freinds grab a couple of Israeli soldiers and say "give us our friends back and we'll give you your soldiers back".
Israel goes way over the top in the hope of drawing Iran and Syria into the conflict in which case America has the excuse they've been looking for.
pultneytooner
13-Jul-06, 19:36
Comeon fred, that is a bit contrived, israel draw syria and iran into a conflict to give america an opportunity to attack iran.
Guess you believe in all this zionist bull?
a demonstration of military might on a countries civilians is violent. using weapons of any means for any use is violence or threatens violence.
a demonstration of military might on a countries civilians is violent. using weapons of any means for any use is violence or threatens violence.
Excuse me, but what are the Hezbollah doing firing rockets in to civilian Kibutz. Is that not violence? I do not understand you and Fred, Israel is defending itself against most of the Arab world for many years now, and doing a not too bad job of it, yet you pair are the first in here to jump on your anti American soap boxes.Is it the devine right of the Arab nations to drive the state of Israel into the sea? I think not and if Israel occupies the Golan Heights and the Gazza strip again, then I for one will say good on you, your defending your State.
Edited because sjwahwah did not like my choice of words
excuse me... I only said that demonstrating a threatening stance over civilians and using weapons is violent..
So now we're anti-semitic? watch what you say.. and who you slander.
btw... I agree with you Fred... that's exactly what America is wanting... making sure they get their bang for their buck.
excuse me... I only said that demonstrating a threatening stance over civilians and using weapons is violent..
So now we're anti-semitic? watch what you say.. and who you slander.
btw... I agree with you Fred... that's exactly what America is wanting... making sure they get their bang for their buck.
As you did not like my choice of words I have edited it out of my previous posting. But I did not edit it for fear of your threats, so do not crow too much sjwahwah
GOLACH...aye.. you've edited out because in the heat of the moment without reading the posts properly you told me (& Fred for that matter) I was anti-semitic and when you've gone back to read what you wrote you maybe thought it isn't so nice to accuse people of being anti-semitic for no good reason?
i say watch what you say as I would've thought slingin' slander in front of the mods could land you in Caithnessamo Bay.
and quit sending me private messages to tell me what I can and cannot say please!
and hey! I'm not anti-American. I'm against the oppression of Americans by their government. There is a very large difference.
GOLACH
and quit sending me private messages to tell me what I can and cannot say please!
a small correction I sent ONE pm to you not plural
please see copy of it below
"Please do not threaten me to "watch it" again because I dissagree with your views
__________________
The original Grumpy Owld Man "
do you read the posts or do you just not bother?!? i say watch what you say as I would've thought slingin' slander in front of the mods could land you in Caithnessamo Bay.
you obviously know your bang out of order if you've edited it.. so, quit trying to dodge the issue of YOU calling ME a racist for no apparent reason whatsoever!
just go back to the beginning of the thread... read.. interpret language and tell me which part was anti-semitic?!? have your views... but, you don't know me and I've not even breathed a hint of anti-semitism and you accuse me of being racist, so, I'll pull you up for it any and everytime whether you like it or not!
Comeon fred, that is a bit contrived, israel draw syria and iran into a conflict to give america an opportunity to attack iran.
Guess you believe in all this zionist bull?
What Zionist bull would that be? I haven't said anything about the Zionist movement in this thread.
I use that title as there is a book by that name which expounds the fact that Israelites are the children of god and I think i am correct in quoting "The lord my god is a vengeful god." Is not also a law in both Islam and Hebrew, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth?"
If I am wrong no doubt some one will correct me but maybe this goes some way to explain some of the ideological differences between ourselves and those middle eastern nations.When to negotiate is seen as weakness and power becomes the criteria of governments and nations then these extreme actions on all sides are the result.
I find it some thing of an anathema as being brought up in a different culture where we are taught all men are equal this type of tit for tat vengeance is alien to me.
I try to understand , it must be hard to see the life blood being sucked from the land that is home to you and generations of your ancestors by a nation created artificially by a world shamed by events that took place during WW2.
Equally the determination of The Isrealites never to suffer the same horrors again might go some way to explaining the hard line that their government invariably takes.
It's only my personal view but I feel that the bullet and the bomb are never an answer and if we pride ourselves on our intelligence and humanity then surely we have the wisdom and the patience to step back from the threshold and look for alternative ways.
At the time of the Exodus from Egypt, the returning Hebrew soldiers wiped out everyone they found occupying the lands that they had fled to avoid famine. When Joshua broke down the walls of Jericho and slaughtered the inhabitants he killed his own people who had stayed on. DNA testing has proved that the slaughtered people were in fact jews also.
This over the top, we are the chosen people and we can do what we want attitude is still evident in the events of today. Palestininian people have had worse treatment at the hands of the Jewish race than all the suicide bombers in the world could create. It is not surprising that their response is getting desperate. Lebanon is now engaged in war and it will not stop there.
The racial arrogance of the Jewish race is liable to plunge the whole world into conflict and, if recent history is anything to go by, the USA will come in on the side of Israel and what will Tony do? Chriatian versus Muslim at the behest of the Jew!!!Truly, Armageddon cannot be to far in the future!!!
George Brims
13-Jul-06, 23:02
Oh goody, it's "blame the Jews" day! Just as a point of information Israel is a "secular" state, having (unlike oh, say, Scotland) no established church. It's not a Jewish country, it's a country that contains a lot of Jews, and Moslem Arabs, and Christians.
I see this latest mess as a temporary setback in the excruciatingly slow progress towards a peaceful Middle East. After all the Palestinians now have their own sort of "homeland". The next job is for Israel and that new country to learn how to be peaceful neighbours. Maybe in another 20 years they'll get there.
"An eye for an eye makes everybody blind" - Albert Einstein
excuse me... I only said that demonstrating a threatening stance over civilians and using weapons is violent..
So now we're anti-semitic? watch what you say.. and who you slander.
btw... I agree with you Fred... that's exactly what America is wanting... making sure they get their bang for their buck.
this is definately where you say it..
To observe the course of history and relate it to the events of today is not casting bame upon anyone. It is merely observing the course of history.
this is definately where you say it..
The american government need an excuse to go after both Syria and Iran and Israel is going to help them find one if this carries out for a few months. Cause when it gets really heated up it's gonna get alot of their neighbours upset.. and the american gov is gonna follow them right behind.. followed closely in third will probably be Britain!
observe the cashflow..
Does the USA need an excuse to do anything??
sure but, even lies will do the trick.:roll:
pultneytooner
14-Jul-06, 00:05
What Zionist bull would that be? I haven't said anything about the Zionist movement in this thread.
You don't need to mention zionists for me to know what you are implying.
pultneytooner
14-Jul-06, 00:07
The american government need an excuse to go after both Syria and Iran and Israel is going to help them find one if this carries out for a few months. Cause when it gets really heated up it's gonna get alot of their neighbours upset.. and the american gov is gonna follow them right behind.. followed closely in third will probably be Britain!
observe the cashflow..
More zionist bull, lies.
More zionist bull, lies.
everybody has their opinions. i don't "know" whats going to happen i'm only guessing in the current light of everything thats going down, same as yourself I presume?! so, I can't see how it's lies or zionist bull.
To observe the course of history and relate it to the events of today is not casting bame upon anyone. It is merely observing the course of history.
The Balfour Declaration was deliberately set up to eradicate Palestinians from their land! America is like a puppet on a string and is under the control of Israel! It is a fact that the people who call themselves Jews, but are really Zionists have immense control through the media, newspapers, banking systems etc. Very often things are not what they appear to be. :(
Good point gbrims...when will this world ever learn?
I have no strong feelings about the people of Israel because they are Jews and I am not at all antisemitic. I have a son called Isaac and an ancestor called Rosenbaum and I had a Jewish partner for a while. However, historically speaking, in the arena of world politics I dislike and distrust their methods, their racial arrogance and the implied supremacy that lies in almost all their political statements.
At the time of the Balfour declaration and the creation of the state of Israel in 1947 they were abandoned by everybody and their victory over the Arab forces was nothing short of miraculous, as was their victory in The Six Day War. Israel has had Atomic weapons for a long time and the implied threat of their use has kept the stopper on all out Jewish/Muslim war. I don't think that they need the help of any other nation to wage all out war and I believe that the stand taken against Hamas and Hezbollah is going to light the fuse that will make WW2 look like a picnic. I have no doubt that Bush will take advantage of the situation and will put in his dollars worth.
If the Jews are indeed the chosen people then let us hope that their God makes them see sense before it is too late.
Good point gleber2,,,,but do you not acknowledge that the bullet and the bomb are not an answer?
Surely as thinking people we are better than that, and if we ar e not then anarchy reigns.
Folks I am devasted by the various responses..surely war is the last resort. There is no JUST war there is only war..and we fail as citizens of this world if we condone that,
changilass
14-Jul-06, 01:40
Folks I am devasted by the various responses..surely war is the last resort. There is no JUST war there is only war..and we fail as citizens of this world if we condone that,
Have got to agree with you on this one pal:D
Oh goody, it's "blame the Jews" day! Just as a point of information Israel is a "secular" state, having (unlike oh, say, Scotland) no established church. It's not a Jewish country, it's a country that contains a lot of Jews, and Moslem Arabs, and Christians.
I don't blame the Jews for anything.......but the Zionists sure as hell have a lot to answer for, imo.
A secular state? But doesn't a secular state mean that all races with different religions have the same rights? In Scotland, I wasn't aware that non-Christians had a less well equipped, subsidised education system, for example.............or that a non-Christian, or non-Scot, is required to get a Supreme Court ruling in order to purchase the croft up the road because of discriminatory practises by the Israeli Government.
I see this latest mess as a temporary setback in the excruciatingly slow progress towards a peaceful Middle East. After all the Palestinians now have their own sort of "homeland". The next job is for Israel and that new country to learn how to be peaceful neighbours. Maybe in another 20 years they'll get there.
Maybe they will....once Israel has ameliorated their pronouncements of what areas of Palestinian land they would be prepared to give up and consider what is fair and equitable to the Palestinians.................and, in the meantime, hell will freeze over. :roll:
"An eye for an eye makes everybody blind" - Albert Einstein
True......but maybe when considering Israel's actions, it should be "two eyes, a nose and both ears for an eye makes a Middle East peace pretty well impossible." :confused
I have no sympathy for Israel the biggest mistake the West ever did was allow the creation of that state.
Iraq invades Kuwait, within days the whole world is against them.
Israel incade the Gaza Strip and West Bank whenever they feel like it and hardly an eyelid is batted.
And people wonder why the Muslim/Middle Eastern states and those who hold sympathies with them hate the west????????
Good point gleber2,,,,but do you not acknowledge that the bullet and the bomb are not an answer?
Surely as thinking people we are better than that, and if we ar e not then anarchy reigns.
The sword and the gun have never been the answer but their use has been condoned throughout history. Nothing changes. After all we all have God on our side.
Why are the thinking people always ignored?
... After all we all have God on our side....
God is on our side, on the side of humanity.
In one of the final scenes of "The Temptation of the Christ" a huge tear falls from heaven and splashes at the foot of the cross. God wept that day over creation. God weaps today over the inhumanity of people toward one another, injustices which get ignored and intolerances within religious factions which idolize vengence.
j4bberw0ck
14-Jul-06, 07:37
and hey! I'm not anti-American. I'm against the oppression of Americans by their government. There is a very large difference.
Can you explain to me how the US Government oppresses its citizens? I'd be interested toi learn....... how does their oppression differ, say, to the oppression of North Korean citizens by the corrupt regime there?
And while we're busy looking at oppression, can someone explain to me how it can be the case that 60 years after the creation (rightly or wrongly) of Israel, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians are still in what the BBC terms "refugee camps"? The Palestinian authorities and the Arab world have made ZERO effort to help or integrate these people because of the propaganda value of having "refugees" displaced by Israel. A reasonable comparison would be that after the bombing of London, or Coventry, or Liverpool, in WW2, those people were still in temporary accommodation as propaganda against the Germans.
It seems to me that the division between Israel and the countries around it is more about the attitude towards its citizens than anything else. The Arab countries view their citizens as cheap and expendable.
Lastly, can someone please explain to me (I'm slow today) why the US has any interest at all in "going after" Syria, Iran and others? "Follow the cash flow" is a phrase straight out of the media, and completely meaningless.
Winston Churchill once said (about trying to get the US to ally with us in WW2) "The Americans can be relied upon to do the right thing. Usually after exhausting all the other possibilities". The United States is not evil or aggressive. It certainly is assertive. It's not perfect. But if it wasn't for them and the way they are, we'd all be talking German or Russian by now.
Lastly, can someone please explain to me (I'm slow today) why the US has any interest at all in "going after" Syria, Iran and others? "Follow the cash flow" is a phrase straight out of the media, and completely meaningless.
No it isn't meaningless it is the crux of the matter.
America is a military-industrial complex, the big corporations including the arms industry, the military and the government are all controlled by the same people.
Who has benefitted from the war in Iraq? Before we invaded they were a socialist state, all the major industries were nationalised and their profits went to help the people. Iraq used to have the best health service in the Middle East, they had free higher education, most of the necessities they bought were subsidised and the government gave away free refrigerators and televisions to the people.
After the invasion Iraqs assets were split between American corporations, so far they have made over $50 billion out of it while Iraqi children die of dysentary and tuberculosis.
"Follow the money" is not straight out of the media, it originated in the Watergate scandal, it was the advice given by Deep Throat to Bob Woodward on how to find out who was behind the breakins and if you follow the money you will find out who was behind the invasion of Iraq.
Who has benefitted from the war in Iraq? Before we invaded they were a socialist state, all the major industries were nationalised and their profits went to help the people. Iraq used to have the best health service in the Middle East, they had free higher education, most of the necessities they bought were subsidised and the government gave away free refrigerators and televisions to the people.
Wow - a utopia then? Im surprised you never moved there Fred.
Wow - a utopia then? Im surprised you never moved there Fred.
Squidge it was only Utopia if you were related to Saddam or his cronies. Not if you were a Kurd or a Marsh Arab
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4695648
Squidge it was only Utopia if you were related to Saddam or his cronies. Not if you were a Kurd or a Marsh Arab
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4695648
I know Golach - my tongue was very firmly in my cheek;)
j4bberw0ck
14-Jul-06, 11:33
America is a military-industrial complex, the big corporations including the arms industry, the military and the government are all controlled by the same people.
What an extraordinary statement. Who are these "same people"? Or are we back to anti-Jewish rhetoric again? Can I refer you to the US Constitution and the fact that their President has considerably less personal power than say, Tony Blair as Prime Minister?
Who has benefitted from the war in Iraq? Before we invaded they were a socialist state, all the major industries were nationalised and their profits went to help the people. Iraq used to have the best health service in the Middle East, they had free higher education, most of the necessities they bought were subsidised and the government gave away free refrigerators and televisions to the people.
Look, I'm by no means sure that the invasion of Iraq was a great idea, but the supposed virtues of old Iraq that you list are not substantially different to the virtues of old Germany under Hitler in the 1930s, after, of course, the economy was restructured to takeout the inflation directly attributable to the punitive measures imposed by the Allies.
Are you saying that Germany was a nice cuddly country too? Saddam's regime subsidised, nationalised and supported as a means of staying in power. The same regime gassed approximately 10,000 Marsh Arabs because they dissented, and murdered half a million Kurds after the West encouraged them to rebel and then left them in the lurch. And that's ignoring the hundreds of thousands of Shi'ites (the largest group in Iraq) slaughtered and tortured by the regime for no reason other than that they weren't Sunni (Saddam's minority mob) and had the courage to dissent.
The Sunnis are rebelling now because they've lost their privileges and social superiority.
It's also the case that during sanctions against Iraq, Saddam built dozens of palaces for himself from the proceeds of oil allowed onto the world market to raise funds so that the children "dying of dysentery and tuberculosis" could have treatment. It's further a matter of fact that Saddam's family raided the national bank to the tune of one billion dollars as the regime collapsed.
As for socialism....... socialism is inherently corrupt, it seems to me. Every major socialist country has at one time or another turned on and slaughtered huge numbers of its own people. The USSR under Stalin. Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge. Hitler and the Jews. East Germany's Stasi and people disappearing in the night. Mao Tze-Tung and millions of Chinese peasants. Kim il-Sung building rubbish missiles and magnificent statues of himself while 2 million of his people starve. And please don't tell me Hitler's Germany wasn't socialist; his political affiliation was the National Socialist Party, hence "NAZI". They all play the same game.
After the invasion Iraqs assets were split between American corporations, so far they have made over $50 billion out of it while Iraqi children die of dysentary and tuberculosis.
That's as maybe, but if you "follow the money" you'll find that the US has spent a great deal more on invading Iraq than $50 billion. And much of that $50billion paid to UScorporations comes from the US Government anyway, under its obligation to rebuild after invasion. Of course US companies were preferred for rebuilding contracts; their own government is footing a large part of the bill.
j4bberw0ck
14-Jul-06, 11:40
Sorry, I seem to have compounded the off-topic drift on this thread! Apologies to the thread "owner", Squidge. :eek:
No need for apologies - i like my threads to go where they want to go - i am interested in what you have to say
As for socialism....... socialism is inherently corrupt, it seems to me. Every major socialist country has at one time or another turned on and slaughtered huge numbers of its own people....
That's as maybe, but if you "follow the money" you'll find that the US has spent a great deal more on invading Iraq than $50 billion. And much of that $50billion paid to UScorporations comes from the US Government anyway, under its obligation to rebuild after invasion. Of course US companies were preferred for rebuilding contracts; their own government is footing a large part of the bill.
It isn't necessarily the principles of the "system" that are corrupt, but rather the people who have power within the system. In time they can turn any system into a corrupt manifestation of what was initially a pretty benign way of having people work together.
The discussion on this thread is suggesting a lot of corruption in capitalism as well. So I don't think the problem is so much with the system, but what people do within the system to achieve either the ends of justice and peace or selfishness and war.
j4bberw0ck
14-Jul-06, 17:23
It isn't necessarily the principles of the "system" that are corrupt, but rather the people who have power within the system. In time they can turn any system into a corrupt manifestation of what was initially a pretty benign way of having people work together.
That's true, but within any group of humans there'll always be one who regards themselves as being better qualified than others to run things. George Orwell had it nailed down tight..... "all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others".
Socialism is especially vulnerable to this because to buy in to socialism, you have to buy into the idea that all people are equal and beholding to the State, which leads and exists for the good of all. Then if you control the State, and happen to be psychopathic enough to believe the State is more significant than its citizens, the path is open to the sorts of atrocities various regimes have committed. It's strange - people seem to view Fascism as being a variant of the political right wing but in fact, Fascism and socialism are indistinguishable in operation. Doubters might refer to the OED for a definition of Fascism or could look here: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/fascism
[lol]
The discussion on this thread is suggesting a lot of corruption in capitalism as well
I don't disagree, but Fred appeared to be suggesting that socialism itself is a virtue, and that was the point I was addressing. Capitalist countries are also not noted for slaughtering their citizens, which was another specific point about the nature of socialism. But I agree that political / economic systems, organised religions, all human group activity are all the same, all vulnerable to corruption by sometimes well-meaning, sometimes just plain exploititive or evil, people.
sassylass
14-Jul-06, 17:45
Folks I am devasted by the various responses..surely war is the last resort. There is no JUST war there is only war..and we fail as citizens of this world if we condone that,
well said lizz
pultneytooner
14-Jul-06, 18:04
Good point gleber2,,,,but do you not acknowledge that the bullet and the bomb are not an answer?
Surely as thinking people we are better than that, and if we ar e not then anarchy reigns. Whether we, are thinking people or not will not make a blind bit of difference.
If a war is going to happen, neither you nor I will be able to stop it whether we condone it or not, our opinions don't matter.
pultneytooner
14-Jul-06, 18:08
The sword and the gun have never been the answer but their use has been condoned throughout history. Nothing changes. After all we all have God on our side.
Why are the thinking people always ignored?
Sometimes it's the only way.
And some-one in the recent past, on this board, suggested that we were higher than the animals.
You have to laugh as a means to stop the tears.
what on earth is going on in the Lebanon? Israel have blockaded The whole country and bombed the airport? Is this really necessary to get back their soldier? Is this a completely uneccessary escalation and a hostile act of war by a country who appear to be intent on causing misery and war wherever they look? or is it a justifiable act? I am baffled to be honest
Yet another thread where the original post has almost immediately hijacked and turned into an anti-American tirade involving Iraq And now Iran and Syria.
It doesn't take much to provide and excuse, does it?
I've not bothered reading the whole thing through because I have no doubt that it is just another reiteration of about 50 other hijacked threads.
I do hope nobody has mentioned oil or 9/11 yet but I‘m sure they will be dragged into it somewhere, the temptation will be too much.
Whatever happens, I hope nobody expects a well thought out discussion on the subject in question because there is almost no chance of that happening.
Twisted propaganda certainly but forget about reasoned discussion.
Mught I suggest that this be amalgamated with the Flight 93 Thread because 90% of what will be claimed will have already been covered there, again and again and again ad infinitum!
George Brims
14-Jul-06, 20:46
And some-one in the recent past, on this board, suggested that we were higher than the animals.
I can't remember which famous biologist said it, but it's been pointed out that we should not consider ourselves higher forms of life until we have mastered simple things like flight, and metamorphosis.
I can't remember which famous biologist said it, but it's been pointed out that we should not consider ourselves higher forms of life until we have mastered simple things like flight, and metamorphosis.
Here Here!!!!!
Yet another thread where the original post has almost immediately hijacked and turned into an anti-American tirade involving Iraq And now Iran and Syria.
It doesn't take much to provide and excuse, does it?
Twisted propaganda certainly but forget about reasoned discussion.
Mught I suggest that this be amalgamated with the Flight 93 Thread because 90% of what will be claimed will have already been covered there, again and again and again ad infinitum!
Jaws I regret to say that once again you are 100% correct this thread has been dare I say the word "Hijacked" by the propoganda machine of a few of the more so called radical Orgers that keep repeating themselves in here.
Methinks I will post a theory that President Bush and Prime Minister Blair are responsible for the Flat Earth theory, Or that there is an Area 51 somewhere in the Nevada desert and they both are responsible for that also and lets see
if they can make a link with Iraq and the persecuted minions of this world we live on. [lol]
pultneytooner
14-Jul-06, 21:42
.........................http://www.bowlandcentral.com/forum/images/smilies/hijacked.gif
.........................http://www.bowlandcentral.com/forum/images/smilies/hijacked.gif
More than once!!!
George Brims
14-Jul-06, 23:06
J
Methinks I will post a theory that President Bush and Prime Minister Blair are responsible for the Flat Earth theory, Or that there is an Area 51 somewhere in the Nevada desert and they both are responsible for that also and lets see
if they can make a link with Iraq and the persecuted minions of this world we live on. [lol]
Dunno about the flat earth thing (though given Bush's flavour of religion it wouldn't surprise me), but there is an establishment called Area 51. It's out in Nevada. It's a secure military test airfield. That's where things like the STealth Fighter, Stealth Bomber, and much earlier the SR-71 Blackbird were tested. Just because loopy people claim there are alien spacecraft there (well there must be because it was in "Independence Day"!), doesn't mean the mundane boring version of it is fiction.
What an extraordinary statement. Who are these "same people"? Or are we back to anti-Jewish rhetoric again? Can I refer you to the US Constitution and the fact that their President has considerably less personal power than say, Tony Blair as Prime Minister?
Anti Jewish retoric? I havent used any anti Jewish retoric.
Who are these same people? There are too many to name, there is hardly a senior member of the White House staff that doesn't switch backwards and forwards between politics and high paid corporate jobs. Cheney was CEO of Haliburton, Haliburton got lucrative contracts in Iraq. If you want to know more of the people involved take a looka at the Carlyle Group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlyle_Group).
The President used to have less power than the Prime Minister of England, things have changed under Bush. See this article on Presidential Signing Statements (http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=33805). Can Tony Blair do that to acts of Parliament?
It's also the case that during sanctions against Iraq, Saddam built dozens of palaces for himself from the proceeds of oil allowed onto the world market to raise funds so that the children "dying of dysentery and tuberculosis" could have treatment. It's further a matter of fact that Saddam's family raided the national bank to the tune of one billion dollars as the regime collapsed.
Diseases like dysentery are caused by things like dirty water and lack of sewerage and while Saddam was building those palaces the Iraqi government did manage to rebuild a lot of Iraqs infrastructure, then we bombed it again. You can point the finger at Saddam Hussein if it makes you feel better, you can say that man is responsible for it all and we are totally without blame but the fact remains that before 1991 Iraq had one of the lowest infant mortality rates in the world and diseases like dysentery, tuberculosis and cholera were none existant.
As for socialism....... socialism is inherently corrupt, it seems to me. Every major socialist country has at one time or another turned on and slaughtered huge numbers of its own people. The USSR under Stalin. Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge. Hitler and the Jews. East Germany's Stasi and people disappearing in the night. Mao Tze-Tung and millions of Chinese peasants. Kim il-Sung building rubbish missiles and magnificent statues of himself while 2 million of his people starve. And please don't tell me Hitler's Germany wasn't socialist; his political affiliation was the National Socialist Party, hence "NAZI". They all play the same game.
But Britain is a socialist country, not as much as it used to be when we had more nationalised industries and free higher education too. As for Hitler the party had the word "socialist" in it and he talked some socialist ideas like giving a free VW to everyone in Germany but no, he wasn't socialist, at the end of the war the bulk of German industries were still in private hands, Germany was a military-industrial complex much like America is.
That's as maybe, but if you "follow the money" you'll find that the US has spent a great deal more on invading Iraq than $50 billion. And much of that $50billion paid to UScorporations comes from the US Government anyway, under its obligation to rebuild after invasion. Of course US companies were preferred for rebuilding contracts; their own government is footing a large part of the bill.
The war has cost the American taxpayer a staggering amount of money, perhaps $300bn, most of that money has gone out of the pockets of the ordinary American and right into the pockets of the war profiteers. What's worse is that America is running a huge defecit so future American taxpayers will be paying interest on it when Bush has left the White House and taken rediculously high paid positions with the corporations who will be bleeding Iraq dry.
Yet another thread where the original post has almost immediately hijacked and turned into an anti-American tirade involving Iraq And now Iran and Syria.
It doesn't take much to provide and excuse, does it?
Have you seen todays papers yet?
UN Security Council Debates Lebanon Crisis; Us Blames Iran, Syria
BEIRUT, Jul 14
Lebanon has urged the UN Security Council to help end ongoing Israeli airstrikes on its territory, but received short shrift from the United States, which blamed the crisis on Iran and Syria, AFP reported. Eschewing any call for Israeli restraint, US Ambassador John Bolton said Friday the escalating violence in both Lebanon and the Gaza strip was a direct result of the killing and abduction of Israeli soldiers by the Hezbollah and Hamas militant groups.
"US blames Iran, Syria".
Just remember you heard it from me yesterday.
Have you seen todays papers yet?
"US blames Iran, Syria".
Just remember you heard it from me yesterday.
I'm so glad you predicted with such accuracy yesterday what has been screamed to the rest of the world by Syria and Iran for a long time.
Check the origins of the items most of which are from Arab or Muslim sources or quotes from speeches which can be checked.
Iran's President has quite recently, whilst in Africa, extended his rhetoric to extending his call for the extermination of all Jews Worldwide. (Now where have we heard that called for before?)
October 2005 Telegraph
Iran's new hard-line president called yesterday for Israel to be "wiped off the map" - the first time for many years that such a high-ranking Iranian official has called for the Jewish state's eradication.
President Ahmadinejad, elected in June, was addressing a conference in Teheran entitled "The World Without Zionism", attended by about 3,000 conservative students, who chanted: "Death to Israel!" and "Death to America!"
"The establishment of the Zionist regime was a move by the world oppressor against the Islamic world," he said. "As the Imam [the late Ayatollah Khomeini] said, 'Israel must be wiped off the map'… The Islamic world will not let its historic enemy live in its heartland."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/10/27/wiran27.xml
March 2006 Asharq Alawsat
"Lebanon...is confident that its current quest for consensus and unity will be embraced and supported by Arabs, starting by its neighbor Syria, the country that has always stood by (Lebanon's) its side," Lahoud said.
The final declaration of the Arab summit expressed support for Lebanon's resistance, or the Iranian and Syrian-backed Hezbollah.
http://www.aawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=1&id=4320
June 2006 Arab News
Lebanon has been deeply divided between pro- and anti-Syrian camps mainly since the February 2005 assassination of former Prime Minister Rafik Hariri which has been widely blamed on Syria although Damascus denies the accusation. Domestic and international protests following Hariri’s murder forced Syria to end its 29 years of military presence and political domination in Lebanon.
In Damascus, Syrian President Bashar Assad held talks yesterday with Lebanese Parliament Speaker Nabih Berri, a main pro-Syrian figure and the initiator of the Lebanese national dialogue. They discussed “the bilateral relations between the two brotherly countries ... as well as the latest developments in Lebanon and the situation in the Middle East,” said the Syrian state news agency SANA.
http://arabnews.com/?page=4§ion=0&article=84515&d=29&m=6&y=2006
July 2006 Asharq Alawsat
London, Asharq Al-Awsat- Eight fundamentalist Islamist organizations have received large sums of money in the last month from the Iranian intelligence services, as part of a project to strike U.S military and economic installations across the Middle East Asharq Al-Awsat has learned.
While denying that Hamas had joined the list of organizations ready to help Iran in its likely war with the U.S, the source indicated that the external success of the movement, which enjoys considerable Iranian support both financial and military, was strengthened following the latest visit by its leaders to Tehran. This was translated in the Palestinian masses’ support for Iran, against Israel and the United States.
February 2005 Scotsman
THE assassination of Lebanese opposition leader Rafik Hariri, which sent shock waves around the world last week, has had the unexpected result of shining the spotlight on the terrorist organisation Hezbollah.
The Syrian-backed group now finds itself the target of US-led condemnation after years of assiduously trying to cultivate a more respectable political image.
http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=193092005
July 2006 The Star (Malaysia that is, not our Daily Star)
DAMASCUS (Reuters) - Syria will support its allies Hizbollah and Lebanon against Israel's attacks on the country, the ruling Baath Party said on Friday.
"The Syrian people are ready to extend full support to the Lebanese people and their heroic resistance to remain steadfast and confront the barbaric Israeli aggression and its crimes," said a communique from the party's national command issued after a meeting.
The national command is the highest echelon of the Baath Party, which has ruled Syria since 1963.
http://thestaronline.com/news/story.asp?file=/2006/7/15/worldupdates/2006-07-15T052610Z_01_NOOTR_RTRJONC_0_-259632-1&sec=Worldupdates
Now why would anybody suspect there is any link between Hezbollah, Lebanon, Syria and Iran?
Both Syria and Iran have boasted about the link for over 20 years and of their interference in the Lebanon for longer than that.
You really should get out and about more fred. What's your next prediction, that Ian Paisley isn't going to have Sunday Lunch with Gerry Adams tomorrow?
Wow, and I thought they were best mates! [lol]
j4bberw0ck
15-Jul-06, 13:33
Read an article by Con Coughlin, who was Saddam's biographer and is a journalist (whoops, reptiles again) yesterday which asserted that Hezbollah is essentially an outpost of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard - it's funded and equipped by the IRG. Therefore, he argued, the sudden upsurge in the violence over the last few days (which started with Hezbollah, not Israel) is likely to be a smokescreen to divert attention away from Iran and its nuclear ambitions, after talks between Europe and Iran about its nuclear research programme broke down the other day.
It does seem an interesting coincidence of timing.
Any connection between Hezbollah, Iran and Syria is all a complete invention of the American controlled Western Media.
I really must start learning only to read the approved web sites which only contain the Authorised Versions of History.
The actual problems in Lebanon started as far back as the early 1970s after the PLO were expelled from Jordan, where they had been made welcome, after they made attempts to take control of the Country. From there they moved into the Lebanon, which also made them welcome. Within five years of their arrival there was a very violent civil war between the Muslims and the Falangist Christians who, until that time, had quite peacefully co-existed.
And the rest, as they say, is History. The rest of the sordid details of who was stirring the pot can be found below.
BBC News April 2002
The party was long supported by Iran, which provided it with arms and money.
In its early days, Hezbollah was close to a contingent of some 2000 Iranian Revolutionary guards, based in Lebanon's Bekaa Valley, which had been sent to Lebanon in 1982 to aid the resistance against Israel.
As Hezbollah escalated its guerrilla attacks on Israeli targets in southern Lebanon, its military aid from Iran increased.
The movement also adopted the tactic of taking Western hostages, through a number of freelance hostage taking cells: The Revolutionary Justice Organisation and the Organisation of the Oppressed Earth, which seized Terry Waite.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1908671.stm
Aljazeera January 2003
Hezbollah was formed from numerous other Lebanese Shia groups shortly after Israel's 1982 invasion, largely fought in mainly Shia southern Lebanon. The group was conceived by Iran, or at least was aided in its inception by the arrival in Lebanon of 1,500 Islamic revolutionary guards from Iran, three years after that country's own Islamic Revolution in 1979. Iran, as an Islamic republic remains a close ally, financial backer, arms supplier and model for Hezbollah. Syria backs Hezbollah morally and has also supplied it with money and arms, such as Katyusha rockets.
One of the main objective of Hezbollah at the time was to spread the Iranian Revolution.
In May 2000, Israel withdrew its army from south Lebanon. This was widely considered a victory for Hezbollah and boosted its popularity in Lebanon. The move did not end the conflict because Hezbollah is still contesting Israel's control of the Shebaa farms region. (My info. Less than 30 sq. Kilometres which Israel seized as part of the Golan Heights from Syria, not Lebanon, in 1967)
http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=10029
BBC News April 2005
Syria has announced that all of its military forces have left Lebanon in line with United Nations demands.
It informed the UN of the withdrawal after a parade of about 200 Syrian soldiers in the Bekaa Valley to mark the end of the 29-year deployment.
Soldiers received medals and shouted support for Syria's president before marching off to a Lebanese army band.
Pressure for Syria to leave grew after the assassination of former Lebanese PM Rafik Hariri in February.
Damascus has denied any role in the death of Hariri who was killed by a car bomb in Beirut but the event prompted giant protests calling for the Syrians to go.
BBC Beirut correspondent Kim Ghattas says the Syrians stayed on long after Lebanon's civil war ended and Damascus effectively became the political master of its tiny neighbour.
Syria's troops in Lebanon - which at one point numbered up to 40,000 - were scheduled to leave completely by 30 April.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4484325.stm
Below is a link let anyone who is interested reason for themselves!
http://us.geocities.com/wittcourt/george_w.htm :(
http://www.countercurrents.org/hassan290306.htm
I really don’t think we can lay the blame for this situation at the door of the USA or the West…..directly, anyway. Whatever the action/events which have led to the current situation, there is an exponential ramping up on both sides (Israel and Hezbollah), of course we can cover the same old ground regarding terrorist organizations, UN treaties that are paid lip service, the US backing of Israel, the appalling treatment of the Palestinian people but all that does it polarize the argument…..either way.
I am not sure how things are getting reported back in the UK (apart from Sky News, which I watch), but on the ground here in Saudi there is a general feeling that this situation is completely orchestrated by Iran. The reasoning is that they (Iran) want to have the UN thinking about something else, rather than sanctions against them for their nuclear ambitions in the near future. I have also had it said to me that if the Iranians get the bomb, the first place they hit will not be Israel but Saudi Arabia. The logic behind this is to replace the Sunni control with Shi’i.
These rockets that are being dispatched from Lebanon by Hezbollah originated in Iran, I just don’t see the logic in stating that the West have created this situation as an excuse to hit Syria/Iran – they would do it anyway if they wanted.
I saw an HSBC advertisement in National Geographic today, it said:
There’s no point pretending we all agree…….But at the heart of most arguments, we find an amazing amount of common ground.
Everyone who I have spoken to regarding this issue just wants it to stop.
I personally have a work colleague who has just been released from hospital in Beirut following a heart by-pass operation……..hopefully he will be getting air lifted out with his wife and kids, what will happen to his parents/brothers/sisters etc God only knows.
These rockets that are being dispatched from Lebanon by Hezbollah originated in Iran, I just don’t see the logic in stating that the West have created this situation as an excuse to hit Syria/Iran – they would do it anyway if they wanted.
You could try applying logic equally to both sides and looking at where the rockets being fired by Israel into Lebanon came from.
Last year the President of Iran sent a letter (http://medias.lemonde.fr/mmpub/edt/doc/20060509/769629_lettre.pdf) to the President of America. All I ask is that you read it carefully with an open mind and try to understand what he is saying. Iran has only had one war in the last 250 years, the war with Iraq which was started by Iraq with American support. They haven't attacked any of their neighbours or invaded any countries.
I know people in the Middle East must be very frightened at the moment just as people in America were very frightened after 9/11 and people around the world were very frightened of Saddams weapons of mass destruction but lets not lose our reason this time and let that fear be turned into a nightmare for the innocent women and children of yet another country.
Just because loopy people claim there are alien spacecraft there (well there must be because it was in "Independence Day"!), doesn't mean the mundane boring version of it is fiction.
George I agree the film "Independance Day" was very true, why else would they cast Will Smith in a fictional film [lol]
j4bberw0ck
16-Jul-06, 00:52
Last year the President of Iran sent a letter (http://medias.lemonde.fr/mmpub/edt/doc/20060509/769629_lettre.pdf) to the President of America
fred, you need to start to deal with the difference between politics and realpolitik, which is what the letter was about.
Please see Post 64 Re Hezbollah, Syria and Iran and their non-existent links. .
Dec 2003 Published by that well know lackey of Imperialist America, Yorkshire CND
Hezbollah, Lebanon’s premier terrorist organization, could soon substantially expand its missile capabilities, courtesy of Iran. According to the November 26th Jerusalem Post, the Islamic Republic plans to broaden the short- and medium-range missile capabilities of the radical Shi’ite militia, and new, extended range missiles currently under development by Tehran could soon end up in the hands of Hezbollah guerrillas. The effort follows substantial recent upgrades to Hezbollah’s short-range missile arsenal, carried out by Iran with Syria’s assistance, which have supplied the group with a large number of extended-range “Katyusha” rockets.
http://cndyorks.gn.apc.org/yspace/articles/bmd/mdbriefing128.htm
Fred, I tried reading the letter you pointed to and now know who your scriptwriter is.
As to the war Iran had with Iraq, I suggest you take your own advice and look at it with an open mind.
A simple check of the correct facts, as opposed to your constant and very one sided version that the Great Satan America is the source of all evil, you will find that you need to remove your blinkers.
In the war between Iraq and Iran you will find that, quite apart from America, Iraq was also supported not only by most Arab States but also by the USSR which also just happened to have a 15 year deal with Iraq after Saddam Nationalised the Oil Industry.
I’m surprised that a person with such an intimate and deep knowledge of the happenings in Iraq just happened to allow that small detail to slip your mind.
Russia had far closer ties with Iraq and Saddam over a much longer period than America ever did.
The reason was quite simple and perfectly obvious to anybody with even the slightest knowledge of the region.
After the overthrow of the Shah and the rise of Khomeini and his Islamic Revolution in Iran almost all the Arab States were horrified by the thought that the Revolution might well spread throughout the Arab world.
The USSR were also well aware that it could well destabilise the large and mainly Muslim southern areas of the Soviet Union and the last thing they wanted was to sit back and risk massive civil unrest.
Add to that the possibility of the serious likelihood of it spreading to confrontation between American backed Israel and the Soviet Client States of Syria, Libya and Egypt amongst others and there was a strong possibility of America and the Soviets being dragged into a direct face off which was the last thing to World needed.
In fact, the support given to Iraq by the Arab States was twice that given by America.
To pretend that the whole thing was manufactured solely by America over Oil is quite simply wishful political bias.
Had that been the case I cannot conceive why the Arab States and more especially the Soviet Union should rush to provide support for America to do it.
Of course, we could always fall back on the belief that everybody else in the world is completely stupid.
America, the Soviets, the Arab States and Iraq all Conspiring in a war against Iran just for the benefit of America?
Not even Hollywood could invent that one!
fred, you need to start to deal with the difference between politics and realpolitik, which is what the letter was about.
I asked that people read the letter with an open mind and what do I get?
American and British arms supplies to Israel, the country which was rated the eighth worst human rights abuser in the world, has made them the fourth largest military power in the world and everyone is pointing the finger and saying "those rockets being fired at Israel came from Iran, they are evil".
Iran has lived in peace with their neighbours for 250 years while America and Britain have invaded and occupied two countries in tha last five years and people are pointing the finger and calling Iran a rogue state.
Israel holds around 10,000 Palestinian men, women and children in their prisons yet all the world can see is two Israeli soldiers.
I have to assume that people are in denial, I can not see how anyone could be that hypocritical.
No point in throwing facts at your opponents Fred, they have already made up their minds. I rarely completely agree or disagree with your posts but in your last one you hit the nail on the head.
On this board everything is a matter of opinion, irrespective of the facts and denial and hypocrisy are rife.
The Holocaust is sixty years in the past and we no longer have to feel guilty for Hitler's insanity. The inhabitants of Israel are the most bitter, the most self centered and the most unforgiving race of people in the world, as far as I can see, and the present conflict illustrates this perfectly.
It certainly seems strange that a country as small and as new as Israel could come to a place of power on an international stage without the support of one or more of the Super powers, and although I long since gave up the search for conspiracy under every bed, it certainly seems that there is one going on here.
j4bberw0ck
16-Jul-06, 11:11
I asked that people read the letter with an open mind and what do I get?
fred, (and gleber2), the author of that letter has repeatedly called for the total annihilation of Israel by any means possible. Coincidence, then, that he has nuclear ambitions? Also, the real power in Iran isn't the President, it's the Ayatollah behind him - the Supreme Leader - who's elected for life and shares Ahmedinajan's views on the destruction of Israel. The Supreme Leader must approve all presidential nominations, so it's a bit of a closed shop.
American and British arms supplies to Israel, the country which was rated the eighth worst human rights abuser in the world, has made them the fourth largest military power in the world and everyone is pointing the finger and saying "those rockets being fired at Israel came from Iran, they are evil".
The question is more, who fired first? Answer, Hezbollah. Israel is a country surrounded by 200 million or so hostiles. I'd think they deserve a little help, wouldn't you?
Iran has lived in peace with their neighbours for 250 years while America and Britain have invaded and occupied two countries in tha last five years and people are pointing the finger and calling Iran a rogue state.
And remarkable that they have. All that time, it was of course a secular state headed by a monarch. Now it's hardline Islamist, committed to the destruction of Israel, committed to the domination of Islam, and working on a nuclear capability while it funds and succours terrorism. I'd say the 250 years clock stopped a while back......
Israel holds around 10,000 Palestinian men, women and children in their prisons yet all the world can see is two Israeli soldiers.
Iraq held hundreds of thousands of its own citizens in captivity. Iran effectively holds its entire population of women in captivity! And that's before you get to the jails.....<edit> it's also true that Israel isn't noted for murdering and mutilating captured military personnel, whereas Hezbollah is raising it to an art form</edit>
I have to assume that people are in denial, I can not see how anyone could be that hypocritical.
For my part I'm having trouble not with hypocrisy, but with what I see as the gullibility and prejudice of others.
I asked that people read the letter with an open mind and what do I get?
Iran has lived in peace with their neighbours for 250 years while America and Britain have invaded and occupied two countries in tha last five years and people are pointing the finger and calling Iran a rogue state.
Iran has lived in peace with their neighbours for 250 years???
I dont think so Fred have you forgotten so easily the Iraq / Iran war?
a wee reminder for you incase you have
http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/wars_iraniraq.html
Sorry Fred I have just noticed a few posts back that you did make a small reference to this war, but I will leave this post for others to see
j4bberw0ck
16-Jul-06, 11:42
No point in throwing facts at your opponents Fred
Sorry, facts? There are lots of "facts" - the real question is which are relevant, and how they're examined and used, and as I tried to say to fred yesterday, how future knowledge and hindsight affects the validity of the "facts". 500 years ago, it was a "fact" that the Earth is flat.
On this board everything is a matter of opinion, irrespective of the facts and denial and hypocrisy are rife.
Oooooooh, there's that word again - "facts"! Gleber, you seem to suggest there's something wrong with opinions. Can you enlarge on that interesting thought?
The Holocaust is sixty years in the past and we no longer have to feel guilty for Hitler's insanity. The inhabitants of Israel are the most bitter, the most self centered and the most unforgiving race of people in the world, as far as I can see, and the present conflict illustrates this perfectly.
Yoohoo, Gleber....... it's sod all to do with the Holocaust and a great deal to do with the rise of radical Islam, which I suppose may have been aided and abetted in some way by the creation of Israel after WW2 as an indirect result of the Holocaust.
It certainly seems strange that a country as small and as new as Israel could come to a place of power on an international stage without the support of one or more of the Super powers
Hmmm.... I didn't think any of us were in doubt about aid given to Israel by the US. Were you?
fred, (and gleber2), the author of that letter has repeatedly called for the total annihilation of Israel by any means possible.
.
I personally have not read the letter in question and cannot,therefore, comment upon its contents.
I am a pacifist who cannot condone violence and war under any circumstance and the threats uttered by Iran's President are completely unacceptable. I cannot condone the practising of the Muslim Extremist dogma which keeps so many of the population in a downtrodden state but I find it equally difficult to condone the Holier than Thou stance taken by the Jewish race.
The Arab/Jewish conflict has been going on for centuries even though, genetically speaking, they are of the same race. It is religion, rather than politics which feeds the fire of this conflict.
We are quick to jump in to protect the rights of the poor Iraqis or to free the Afghans from the Taleban but we are not so quick to jump in to save the poor Palestinians, Mugabe's victims, the people of Chechnya, the Sudanese and all the other downtrodden races of our unfortunate planet. We are quite happy that a paranoid race like the Jews have the Atom bomb or indeed South Africa, India, Pakistan, France, China and possibly Korea havig nuclear capability. Even a warlike nation like Japan can be armed to the hilt without Western complaint. Japan has threatened a pre-emptive strike against North Korea and this merited virtually no coverage by the newspapers.
Is it therefore surprising that some of us will not accept the pap fed us by our politicians and media moguls and feel that the reasons behind our warlike trumpetings are perhaps a bit more sinister than we are being told.
There is sufficient evidence to support the existance of international conspiracies and I am sure that the doubters can rake up enough evidence to deny this existance.
Whatever the real truth behind the Israel/Lebanese conflict, the situation only goes to illustrate that we, as a race, are certifiable.
Nothing wrong with opinions except when the defence of that opinion reduces the debate to the level of personal insult. I was not commenting particularly on the opinions stated in this thread, but in the threads in general,having been following the major debates on this board for seven months. It happens to be my "opinion" that Fred is perhaps closer to the truth than he is being given credit for. After all, an opinion is only based on personal education, knowledge and intelligence.
At the time of the foundation of the State of Israel there were no Radical Islamic States but the Jews were opposed by every Arab nation in the Middle East and were not supported by Britain or the USA. In fact, Britain did what they could to oppose the formation of the State of Israel because they did not wish to offend the Arabs who controlled the oil at the time. Volte face is a phrase which springs to mind.
The Western support came to the Jews only after thay had taken on and trounced their Arab enemies in 1947.
There has been much discussion about the way in which the USA has armed and supported Israel. I would have to be some kind of idiot not to have seen that.
For my part I'm having trouble not with hypocrisy, but with what I see as the gullibility and prejudice of others.
How about your gullibility and prejudice or does this only apply to those who disagree with you?
I personally have not read the letter in question and cannot,therefore, comment upon its contents.
Whatever the real truth behind the Israel/Lebanese conflict, the situation only goes to illustrtate that we, as a race, are certifiable.
Gleber2, to save you being bored to death reading the letter all I can say is that I tried and gave up after a couple of pages because I had fallen asleep three times.
Basically it is an eight page version of most of fred's anti-American views with many references to Jesus Christ (for the benefit of a believer in Christianity) and ending (I skipped to the last page) by announcing that repressive and cruel Governments are the “Will of God”.
The Liberal Western System has failed and people all over the World are flocking towards the main focal point, "The Almighty", and the “Will of God” will prevail. .
Substitute the various names for God and the Prophets and you will get the picture of one Leader with strong religious beliefs trying to convince another Leader with strong religious beliefs to leave the fate of humanity to the one thing they have in common. A belief in a Superior Entity who controls everything.
The description used at the end of the letter gives a good indication as to which Belief System he considers the people of the World are flocking, “President of the Islamic Republic of Iran”
“Believe in God, follow me, and all will be fine!”
Now how many times have we heard that cry before? Any body got thousands of white shields and load of red paint before we set off?
Gleber2, that last comment, well what can I say? Probably the most correct view of Humanity I’ve heard in a long time. You’ve got my whole hearted support on that.
I’ve generally found more intelligence in a flock of sheep than I have in a crown of people!
How about your gullibility and prejudice or does this only apply to those who disagree with you?
Hmmm Gleber2 owld mate, are you inferring you are gullible and prejudiced, because you always seem to disagree with my points of view
Hmmm Gleber2 owld mate, are you inferring you are gullible and prejudiced, because you always seem to disagree with my points of view
Sometimes, my ancient owld mate, your points of view are impossible to discern amongst the blustre. This latest is no exception!!!!!
From post "78".
How about your gullibility and prejudice or does this only apply to those who disagree with you?
The envelope is getting well pushed here. I don't see any gullibility or prejudice in what j4bberwolk has written.
From post "79".
The envelope is getting well pushed here. I don't see any gullibility or prejudice in what j4bberwolk has written.
Nor I> But I cannot see any gullibility or prejudice in the poster he was referring to either. His and Fred's are personal opinions in the same way. If Fred is gullible and prejudiced by stating his heart held fears and opinions, then so is everyone else on this Forum including j4bberwOlk.
Nor I> But I cannot see any gullibility or prejudice in the poster he was referring to either. His and Fred's are personal opinions in the same way. If Fred is gullible and prejudiced by stating his heart held fears and opinions, then so is everyone else on this Forum including j4bberwOlk.
I absolutely agree, we come at this with our own prejudices. Even when we apply objective logic we can still come up with different conclusions. So, do we engage in verbal confrontation when those conclusions clash? I hope that we can get past that.
Sometimes, my ancient owld mate, your points of view are impossible to discern amongst the blustre. This latest is no exception!!!!!
Let's take a breather and all hum a few bars of "Give peace a chance."
Oh, Gleber2, you and I are both going to be ancient owld mates ourselves someday. Let's be kind to golach and maybe the young ones will be kind to us when our turn comes.
pultneytooner
16-Jul-06, 18:22
Everybody has their opinions and are entitled to them the thing is to look at what someone has to say objectively and without predudice.
I have my own opinions but I will listen to fred, gleber2 or jaws and golach
et al and maybe take on board what they have to say about certain subjects, i'd have to be pretty idiotic to think that my opinion was the correct and only one that mattered.
Everybody has their opinions and are entitled to them the thing is to look at what someone has to say objectively and without predudice.
I have my own opinions but I will listen to fred, gleber2 or jaws and golach
et al and maybe take on board what they have to say about certain subjects, i'd have to be pretty idiotic to think that my opinion was the correct and only one that mattered.
Well said, good grief I even listen to Landmarker LOL.:Razz
Let's take a breather and all hum a few bars of "Give peace a chance."
Oh, Gleber2, you and I are both going to be ancient owld mates ourselves someday. Let's be kind to golach and maybe the young ones will be kind to us when our turn comes.
The original Grumpy Owld Man is only four years oder than I. He can look after himself against a poor old hippy like me. And I never liked John Lenon.
From post 76
...
Whatever the real truth behind the Israel/Lebanese conflict, the situation only goes to illustrate that we, as a race, are certifiable.
We have had this discussion before. I don't think that it is accurate to give sweeping judgements when not all participants fit the category. I agree that some leaders are certifiable, but not all. I don't think that my race is certifiable either. I think that we are in the throws of such global change that the upheaval looks like a situation of craziness, but there are signs of new order being brought to the chaos. I just hope that order will take hold before the whole earth gets blown up.
Under the old Westphalian model of states controlling all international relationships the instruments of war kept things under control. Now the western world doesn't totally work under that model. All kinds of global organizations have come into being and they are changing the way people and countries relate. Such relationship is a work in progress. We haven't made it to the end so we don't know what it will look like. (Okay, I am not a political scientist and I might never really "know" what it looks like from the technical side.) For us, who have moved along a different pathway (or maybe more quickly along the ultimate pathway) than the countries in the Middle East, are we not observing the conflicts there with a much more globally oriented set of eyes? Are the Middle Eastern countries not still in the throws of a Westphalian conflict, the state against the state? I agree that there is concern because the instuments of war have changed a lot since 1648. States going at one another as per the old model now have weapons that threaten the whole earth if used even within a limited area.
Squidge, we have gone quite a distance from your original concerns about a bombed out airport runway. Thank you for posting the topic in the first place. All the talk is probably indicative of how concerned many of us are over the escalating situation.
The original Grumpy Owld Man is only four years oder than I. He can look after himself against a poor old hippy like me. And I never liked John Lenon.
Okay then lets hum a few bars of "The Dark Lighthouse Rag". That should lighten things abit.
I think we should all have a sing along with "We'll meet again."
It brings back warm memories of the most enjoyable film I've ever seen and the only one with an ending I really looked forward to becoming reality!
The original Grumpy Owld Man is only four years oder than I. He can look after himself against a poor old hippy like me. And I never liked John Lenon.
[lol] at this gleber2 I have this picture o ye and George Harrison sitting cross legged in your dhotis comtemplating your navels, and listening intently to your guru in Goa or there about.:lol:
And yes dear Canuck I can take care of myself on the message boards, but thanks for showing concern, I assure you there is no need, I have been attacked verbally in here by worse men than the Owld Man o Dunnet
I think we should all have a sing along with "We'll meet again."
It brings back warm memories of the most enjoyable film I've ever seen and the only one with an ending I really looked forward to becoming reality!
Apart from Golach, there's probably not many on the board who remember that one. Such a different reality though.
I have been attacked verbally in here by worse men than the Owld Man o Dunnet
There are worse men than me?? I'll have to turn up the hate knob.[evil]
I think we should all have a sing along with "We'll meet again."
It brings back warm memories of the most enjoyable film I've ever seen and the only one with an ending I really looked forward to becoming reality!
A "sing along" on the org. Now there is an organizational challenge for someone!:)
fred, (and gleber2), the author of that letter has repeatedly called for the total annihilation of Israel by any means possible. Coincidence, then, that he has nuclear ambitions?
Rubbish.
I have read the entire speech (http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP101305) not just the headlines in the Daily Mail, he does no such thing, he calls for regime change and I agree with him. When Bush called for regime change in Iraq did the papers say he wanted to annihilate it?
There is no evidence that he has nuclear ambitions, he would be a fool if he didn't it's about the only reliable defence against the USA, they are reluctant to hit anyone with the capability to hit back but there is no evidence at all. Unlike Israel who have submarine based nuclear missiles off the coast of Iran at the moment and who haven't signed the Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty as Iran has.
Iran has by far the largest Jewish population of any Muslem country, between 25,000 and 35,000 Jews live there, Tehran has 11 synagogues and there is a Jewish representative in the Iranian parliament. Jews have more rights in Iran than Muslems do, they are exempt from some of the religious laws and are protected by a fatwa. Just like everyone in Iran they don't share the same freedoms and privileges we in the west have but here is what an Iranian Jew had to say on the subject:
Everywhere in the world there are people who don't like Jews. In England, they draw swastikas on Jewish graves. I don't think that Iran is more dangerous for Jews than other places.
So tell me, when Israel has one of the largest nuclear arsenals in the world, bigger than Britains even, why do you point the finger at Iran and accuse them of having "nuclear ambitions" like it makes them worse than Israel?
Is it denial or is it hypocrisy?
I wonder if Iran's ambitions have the same substance as Saddam's weapons of mass destruction which no-one has managed to find yet.
The Shah tried to catapult his people into the Twentieth century rather more quickly than they could handle and then, in some respects, they were catapulted back in time with the Ayatollah. However, their government is their affair. America, a country which has put a man into power as their President who has failed in every business his family could set him up in and didn't seem to win in a straight ballot, cannot really complain about any other country's choice of government. Iran is run by an Islamic nutcase and the USA by a Christian nutcase perhaps we should put them both in a ring and see which one emerges.With a Jewish ref perhaps.
This has gone way beyond a blockade now.
I have just read that 7 Canadians have been killed and 3 more wounded in the streets of Lebanon. Here is the link to a TV site:
http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/TopStories/ContentPosting.aspx?newsitemid=CTVNews%2f20060716% 2fmideast_canada_060716&feedname=CTV-TOPSTORIES_V2&showbyline=True
The arguments here have been interesting. I dont think there is any doubt that israel have the right to defend their borders but the way they go about it appalls me. Israel seem to base their defence policy on taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut. They send bombs and misslies indiscrimintely to settle an old score. No doubt hezbollah knew what they were starting when they crossed the border but Israel seem to take every opportunity to use force where maybe just maybe something else might have worked.
Lebanon has a fragile democracy, christians and muslims lived reasonably peacefully before this and the withdrawal of Syria might have given this emerging democratic middle eastern state a chance to flourish. I think that chance has been scuppered by Israel who seem oblivious to the fact that with every bomb or missile they create more potential Hezbollah sympathisers in Lebanon or more potential suicide bombers in Palestine. More problems for the world to sort out, more issues that the UN will completely fail to do anything about. And the UN are the organisation that SHOULD be addressing this, not individual countries like the US. Indeed in my opinion Israel has long since ceased to be a puppet of the US, the influence the US has now is far far less than it was twenty or ten years ago.
The issue of Iran's involvement in hezbollah is interesting but i need to read further the issues around that before i comment
And the UN are the organisation that SHOULD be addressing this, not individual countries like the US. Indeed in my opinion Israel has long since ceased to be a puppet of the US, the influence the US has now is far far less than it was twenty or ten years ago.
A UN Security Council statement calling for an immediate ceasefire was blocked by America and Britain yesterday.
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/6C062C97-F8D0-42B9-89A1-1C4D6963D512.htm
While the rest of the world has been calling for a ceasfire yesterday Condoleezza Rice said:
"We support, at this point, an effort to make certain that when there is a cease-fire that it is one that is sustainable."
http://www.abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/Mideast/story?id=2198066&page=1
Wake up and smell the coffee.
Fred,
this is the man who is the main cause of Israel attacking Lebanon, you denied earlier that his ambition is to sweep Israel into the sea. Well here are a few links I have found, giving me an idea who this madman is.
I support Israel in their defence of Israel, maybe not with the extent of the attacks, they have their back against the wall, what else can they do against the might of the Islamic nations
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4510922.stm
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-1930053,00.html
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/15E6BF77-6F91-46EE-A4B5-A3CE0E9957EA.htm
Wake up and smell the coffee.
Dont patronise me Fred
I said that Israel was not a puppet of the US not that the US didnt support Israel or that they werent buddies. I also cannot find any further reports of the UK blocking calls for a ceasefire other than the Al jazeera one you note. In fact the BBC website and many others indicate Tony Blair supporting Kofi Annan in his suggestions for a way to stop the conflict. Other news sites say that the G8 leaders had in fact called for a ceasefire and The EU has urged Israel to stop its "disproportionate" action.
Nothing in what i have read suggests that Israel is acting on the orders of washington or that washington is pulling hte strings. There are reports that President Bush is concerned for the democracy in Lebanon as well he might be. I thinks its appalling that they havent called for a ceasefire yet and i would urge them to do so soon if i was in the position of having any influence at all!
Golach is right in part too - Iran and syria have an agenda which is about the destruction of Israel but Israel HAVE to find alternative solutions than simply bombing the crap out of everyone because in the long run they create hate and resentment and make a worse problem than they have to start with.
I wonder, if The USA is not controlling Israel, if the converse is true. Who is pulling whose strings?
Pultenytooner, why are you deleting your posts??
pultneytooner
17-Jul-06, 13:06
I wonder, if The USA is not controlling Israel, if the converse is true. Who is pulling whose strings?
Pultenytooner, why are you deleting your posts??
I deleted 2 as I didn't think they contributed much to an otherwise intelligent discussion.:)
I wonder, if The USA is not controlling Israel, if the converse is true. Who is pulling whose strings?
Ooooooooooooooooh Gleber2 - there is a whole new tangent to go off on
I am not going to be able to log out of here this afternoon;)
Jewish population in Iran
BBC News April 2000
Since the Islamic Revolution, it has dwindled from an estimated 80,000 souls, to perhaps only around 30,000.
The bath attendant says that there used to be about 7,000-8,000 Jews living in the area.
"We did a survey recently and there are only 70 left now, including adults and children," says the bath attendant.
Farangis Hassidim is director of the only Jewish hospital in Iran.
It is Jewish-run, financed by the Jewish community, but nowadays only a handful of the actual patients are Jewish.
Not so long ago, it was one of the focal points of a vibrant local Jewish community in south Tehran.
"Maybe 90% of the people living round here, even 30 years ago, they were mostly Jewish," says Farangis Hassidim.
The depletion of the community is sadly evident at the nearby Jewish public baths.
The bath attendant says that there used to be about 7,000-8,000 Jews living in the area.
"We did a survey recently and there are only 70 left now, including adults and children," says the bath attendant.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/711917.stm
Times on Line February 2006
Iran’s biggest-selling newspaper has waded into the Muhammad controversy by launching a competition to find the 12 "best" cartoons about the Holocaust.
President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad courted international denunciation recently when he argued for Israel to be "wiped off the map".
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-2027749,00.html
Scotland on Sunday May 2006
The first major movement came in 1948 when the state of Israel was established and the number of Jews in Iran stood at about 150,000.
Since Mahmoud Ahmadinejad came to power last June, life for Iran's 25,000 Jews has become even more precarious as the president defiantly pursues a nuclear policy while declaring Israel should be "wiped off the world map".
http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=684952006
Once again fred is providing a biased view of a situation. Above are some figures of the decline of the Jewish population in Iran, a population who have lived there for 2,700 years since the Persians conquered Babylon and freed the Jews who were being held there in slavery.
Ahmadinejad is simply using different words to make the same threat I first heard in the 1960s by the then President of Egypt, Gamal Abdul Nasser, backed by the Soviet Union, that he was going to, “Drive the Israelis into the sea” and called on his Arab Brethren to assist.
These threats became more and more strident and more realistic over a period of time with other Arab Nations starting to mutter the same in the background.
As Egypt made more threatening preparations, the Israelis decided to act by making a pre-emptive strike to eliminate the Egyptian Air Force which they did.
Egypt moved massive numbers of troops into the Sinai Dessert hoping to overwhelm Israel without success.
Syria, also backed and armed by the Soviet Union, then decided to take advantage by invading Northern Israel hoping for easy pickings but discovered it was not as easy as they had hoped.
Both then put massive moral pressure on Jordan also to join their Muslim Brothers them against their Zionist Enemies.
Within six days it was all over and they failed in their tasks.
Israel then made small extensions to it‘s borders to make them more defensible.
This was right in the middle of the Cold War and, because Israel had American support the Soviet Union automatically supported Israel’s enemies.
Within months of the conflict ending both Egypt and Syria had been fully re-armed.
Not long after that, Jordan, who had welcomed Palestinian Refugees, had to expel them after they made moves to take the Country over. The Palestinians, including the PLO, moved into Southern Lebanon.
Shortly after their arrival a sudden very violent and bloody Civil War broke out in Lebanon between the Lebanese Muslims and Christians who had always previously lived together with no strife whatsoever.
Syria then moved massive numbers of troops into Lebanon in effect making it a Client State and enabling the Palestinians to make rocket attacks on towns in Israel from within Lebanon’s borders hoping that the presence of the Syrians would prevent any retaliation.
Until that time there had been no dispute whatsoever between Lebanon and Israel.
Lebanon was, in effect, being “used” so other cowardly Countries could create tension in the area without risking any retaliation against themselves whilst watching the Lebanese suffer on their behalf.
Once again they are playing the same game to the detriment of the Lebanese in order to make mischief in the region for their own benefit.
Cowards always prefer to get others to do their fighting for them whilst making the right noises from a safe distance!
A quick check on the general background history of the area will give you an idea of what has been going on, provided you don’t use the blinkered method of picking out the bits that suit the propaganda you wish convey to anybody who will believe you..
Knowing who backed who during the Cold War will also give an insight into the motives of certain posters.
And I include myself in that comment!
Squidge, the system won't let me send you a reputation note and your PM box is full. So, this is my only alternative. "Hang in there!" Keep up the great posts.
I know quite a few Lebanese people out here, mostly Sunni but also a fair number of Christians. Those I have spoken to are absolutely boiling with rage, not only at Israel, but at Hezbollah. From what I can gather they are showing a bit of a united front at the moment as the country is under attack – but IF Israel stop their attacks it seems likely that Hezbollah will be exposed to the full wrath of the Lebanese population.
frank ward
17-Jul-06, 17:18
Israel is a racist state built on stolen land, maintained by 'aid' from the USA. Non-jews are steadily being forced from the land, and the Palestinian people have for decades been reduced to poverty and squalor by the military and settler activity.
Historically, Palestinians and much of the Arab world have rejected Islam as a political force and instead have supported secular movements and arab left-nationalism.
The failure of secular Arab organisations to protect their people from rampant Israeli murder and domestic dictators has led to the rise of Hamas and other nutters, but the very existence of Israel is the chief cause of most of the anguish in the middle east.
Now we have the obscene sight of Blair and Bush blaming Syria and Iran while Israeli jets blow Lebanon back into civil war. Not a word against Saudi Arabia who are big financiers of religious groups throughout the region.
Israel is not interested in the loss of its three soldiers. More and more this looks like a stage-managed prelude to further wars in the region, ideally against Syria and especially oil-rich Iran.
The simple fact is that nearly all other Arab states think Hezbollah are to blame for this Frank. Israel have gone completely over the top and been drawn into this, to divert attention away from Iran’s nuclear ambitions.
Whatever you think of the state of Israel, this started because of Hezbollah.
Jewish population in Iran
BBC News April 2000
Since the Islamic Revolution, it has dwindled from an estimated 80,000 souls, to perhaps only around 30,000.
After the Islamic Revolution the Iranian government confiscated all personal wealth. A lot of people, not just Jews, left Iran and took their wealth with them.
Is there some reason you didn't mention that? I mean you're quick enough to accuse me of being biassed and having ulterior motives for just stating the facts. Why didn't you say why the Jewish population in Iran dwindled?
Fred,
this is the man who is the main cause of Israel attacking Lebanon, you denied earlier that his ambition is to sweep Israel into the sea. Well here are a few links I have found, giving me an idea who this madman is.
I support Israel in their defence of Israel, maybe not with the extent of the attacks, they have their back against the wall, what else can they do against the might of the Islamic nations
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4510922.stm
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-1930053,00.html
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/15E6BF77-6F91-46EE-A4B5-A3CE0E9957EA.htm
None of those links say anything about sweeping Israel into the sea.
I have read a number of different translations of the Presidents speech and there are some differences between them, "wiped of the map", "removed from the stage of time", "removed from the pages of history" but in every translation I have read it is clear that he is refering to the Zionist regime being removed not a country.
Fred wrote:
Is there some reason you didn't mention that? I mean you're quick enough to accuse me of being biassed and having ulterior motives for just stating the facts. Why didn't you say why the Jewish population in Iran dwindled?
From my understanding of the Jewish population in Iran they were not wealthy, hope you are noy guilty of using a stereotype there Fred;)
After the Islamic Revolution the Iranian government confiscated all personal wealth. A lot of people, not just Jews, left Iran and took their wealth with them.
Is there some reason you didn't mention that? I mean you're quick enough to accuse me of being biassed and having ulterior motives for just stating the facts. Why didn't you say why the Jewish population in Iran dwindled?
If you read the rest of the items in that same post you will see that there are explanations given there. They have, of course, allowed a token representative in the Iranian Parliament. Just one, it’s about all they can stomach, seeing it is safe to ignore him nobody has bothered to make any changes.
Could the fact that Iran was changed from a tolerant Secular State into a Strict Islamic State under Sharia Law when the Ayatollah Khomeini took control have had anything to do with it?
Even Iranian Muslims could find themselves imprisoned and placed under a sentence of death for failing to hold the “correct” Political Beliefs.
I wonder why so many Jews left Germany in the 1930s? The rhetoric sounds very similar to me. But as everybody knew, Hitler didn’t really mean anything he said, so there was no need to worry, was there. He was really a nice man and people were just lying about what he was supposed to have said because he had never said anysuch things.
As with others who are very quick to accuse Israel of every offence they can think of all you have to do is read their attitudes on other posts with respect to which regimes they find faultless and which they believe are responsible got every evil in the World and you will soon realise why they are so vehemently opposed to everything Isreal either does or stands for.
Nobody has ever threatened to drive the Israelis into the Sea, nobody has ever threatened to wipe Israel off the maps of the World, and the Holocaust never happened, it was all an invention as an excuse to create Israel.
And anybody who thinks differently is suffering from mass delusions.
Anti-Semitism has always been rife amongst extremist Political Groups because they are such easy targets to arouse passions,
Look at Hitler, he found them a convenient scapegoat ripe for extermination.
Look at Stalin, he found accusing Jewish Doctors of secretly trying to poison the Russian Leaders and duly exterminated them.
Scotsman January 2003
In Russia, a recent opinion poll found more than half of those surveyed viewed Stalin with ambivalence or as a positive force. Communist politicians, the biggest group in the Russian Duma, openly praise the former leader, claiming the mass arrests and executions under his rule have been hugely exaggerated. Western historians estimate between ten and 20 million people died as a result of Stalin’s three decades of rule. Others suggest even higher figures.
"It’s all lies," says Mr Dzhugashvili, whose father, Yakov, was Stalin’s eldest son. "Until the late 1930s, my grandfather was surrounded by Trotskyist Jews who were manipulating his every move. It was them that sent people to the Gulag, and it only stopped when he had them killed."
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=55232003
Does the style of the rhetoric sound familiar to anybody? Invent a small group who are intent on controlling everything who can be blamed for all the Worlds Wrongs.
Now where have I heard that before?
Israel is a racist state built on stolen land, maintained by 'aid' from the USA. Non-jews are steadily being forced from the land, and the Palestinian people have for decades been reduced to poverty and squalor by the military and settler activity.
Historically, Palestinians and much of the Arab world have rejected Islam as a political force and instead have supported secular movements and arab left-nationalism.
The failure of secular Arab organisations to protect their people from rampant Israeli murder and domestic dictators has led to the rise of Hamas and other nutters, but the very existence of Israel is the chief cause of most of the anguish in the middle east.
Now we have the obscene sight of Blair and Bush blaming Syria and Iran while Israeli jets blow Lebanon back into civil war. Not a word against Saudi Arabia who are big financiers of religious groups throughout the region.
Israel is not interested in the loss of its three soldiers. More and more this looks like a stage-managed prelude to further wars in the region, ideally against Syria and especially oil-rich Iran.Oh dear.If in doubt scream "Racism" so as soon as anybody raises a differing point of view the can be labelled "Fascist". That's always a good start.
Praise the Arab world as being at the forefront of Secular Socialism.
Ignore the fact that Anwar Sadat was executed by Religious Fanatics in his own Army in full view of the whole World.
Don’t mention the Ayatollah Khomeini, that leftist Secular Leader.
Hezbollah was created with the assistance of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard with the intention of spreading the Islamic Revolution. Syria is home to the Head Man of Hezbollah by their own account and admits supporting them.
It is only in the last few years that the UN has finally embarrassed Syria into very reluctantly removing it’s remaining Armed Forces from Lebanon.
Lebanon has been used by the Palestinians ever since the days of the PLO to try to drag other Countries into it’s dispute with Israel. It has made every effort to marshal opinion against Israel by it’s actions in Gaza when it Kidnapped Israeli Soldiers.
When that failed in the desired effect of creating massive antagonism against Israel they then used the same method in an attempt to involve Lebanon into their private squabble in the hope of dragging others into the conflict.
There is nothing new in the methods they are using. But at least they have, for the time being, stopped hijacking aircraft from totally unconnected Countries and threatening to kill every body on board.
Remember Leila Khaled and a plane hijacked to London?
Remember Dawson’s Field and the threat to slaughter British Schoolchildren if she wasn’t released?
She is still a wanted Terrorist in this Country but is allowed to wander in and out at will to give Lectures at British Universities.
What a pretty picture you paint Frank, but I remember the pictures before the darker parts had been covered over and the murders on the streets of Britain.
I said that Israel was not a puppet of the US not that the US didnt support Israel or that they werent buddies.
You said:
And the UN are the organisation that SHOULD be addressing this, not individual countries like the US.
I pointed out that UN attempts to address it had been blocked and from what Condoleezza Rice says America is in no hurry to prevent any more innocent Lebanese and Israeli civilians being killed.
Nothing in what i have read suggests that Israel is acting on the orders of washington or that washington is pulling hte strings. There are reports that President Bush is concerned for the democracy in Lebanon as well he might be. I thinks its appalling that they havent called for a ceasefire yet and i would urge them to do so soon if i was in the position of having any influence at all!
President Bush wasn't too concerned about the democracy in Palestine. For weeks I've been reading about collective punishment against Palestinians because they voted for somebody Bush doesn't like.
Golach is right in part too - Iran and syria have an agenda which is about the destruction of Israel but Israel HAVE to find alternative solutions than simply bombing the crap out of everyone because in the long run they create hate and resentment and make a worse problem than they have to start with.
Hamas and Hezbollah take Israeli soldiers hostage to secure the release of Muslem prisoners in Israeli prison camps, it's happened loads of times before and it's always worked before all that's different this time is Israels response and I don't see how Syria and Iran could have predicted that.
I don't think Syria and Iran are as intent on the destruction of Israel as the end of Israeli oppression. Next time they have peace talks they could try inviting a few Arabs along to join in the discussion instead of letting Rice and Weissglas work out how much Israel can get away with before it starts hurting Bush at the ballot box, you never know it might work.
Cedric Farthsbottom III
17-Jul-06, 23:57
I have read many stories about Israel over the years.I am naive,I admit it.
Did the country of Israel only appear after the holocaust that occurred during the Second World War or should I go back to Secondary School and re-learn ma history.
Well well......the Org is quite a place to be when the world is in turmoil.
What a difference of opinions, experience and reasoning!! It certainly makes entertaining reading!
golach, gleber2, gleeber, canuck, fred, squidge, pulteneytooner, jaws, scotsboy, cedric etc. etc......the list goes on......it's like sitting listening to the family argue at dinnertime!
(thats a complement in case you didn't notice)
I have read many stories about Israel over the years.I am naive,I admit it.
Did the country of Israel only appear after the holocaust that occurred during the Second World War or should I go back to Secondary School and re-learn ma history.
You could go back to school but you would be none the wiser. Following the Jewish history after the Diaspora of the 1st century is quite difficult with so many conflicting stories. Orthodox jews were against the re-establishment of the State of Israel because it was not supposed to happen until the coming of the Messiah, the Jews not accepting that Christ was the Messiah.
Well well......the Org is quite a place to be when the world is in turmoil.
What a difference of opinions, experience and reasoning!! It certainly makes entertaining reading!
golach, gleber2, gleeber, canuck, fred, squidge, pulteneytooner, jaws, scotsboy, cedric etc. etc......the list goes on......it's like sitting listening to the family argue at dinnertime!
(thats a complement in case you didn't notice)
Saveman, great to see you. I truly appreciate your metaphor of likening the posts to [discussion] at dinnertime. Those are some of the most meaningful moments in the life of any family. I remember when my son was interviewed for university entrance and he was asked where he got his passion for life and concern for people. He said without pause, "sitting around my parent's dinner table."
Now if we could only get the people of the Middle East to sit around a few meal tables.
I have read many stories about Israel over the years.I am naive,I admit it.
Did the country of Israel only appear after the holocaust that occurred during the Second World War or should I go back to Secondary School and re-learn ma history.
No one has jumped in to take on this task (save Gleber2 reminding us how complicated it is), so I shall give it a bit of a go for you.
Israel as a strong independent political entity hasn't existed since 586BC. There have been some variously tolerated semi-autonomous governments since then. And for a hundred years or so the Macabees asserted Israel's independence, but that ended in 63BC. The Romans were in control for about 400 years, then the Greeks and finally a succession of Arab, Crusader, Mamluks and Ottoman Turks until 1917. Under the League of Nations, Britian was put in control of Palestine (land of Israel) in 1920. In 1948 the state of Israel was created by the United Nations.
It was the Hebrews/Israelites returning from Exile in Babylon and Egypt after 586BC who were first given the name "Jews." Before that time the term is not used. The "Jews" living in Iraq today likely trace their family origins to the time of that Exile.
Israel captures some Lebonese Arabs and puts them in prison their freinds grab a couple of Israeli soldiers and say "give us our friends back and we'll give you your soldiers back".
Israel goes way over the top in the hope of drawing Iran and Syria into the conflict in which case America has the excuse they've been looking for.
Good gosh I hope not. USA has more than it can handle with Afghanistan and Iraq for the present time.
No one has jumped in to take on this task (save Gleber2 reminding us how complicated it is), so I shall give it a bit of a go for you.
Israel as a strong independent political entity hasn't existed since 586BC. There have been some variously tolerated semi-autonomous governments since then. And for a hundred years or so the Macabees asserted Israel's independence, but that ended in 63BC. The Romans were in control for about 400 years, then the Greeks and finally a succession of Arab, Crusader, Mamluks and Ottoman Turks until 1917. Under the League of Nations, Britian was put in control of Palestine (land of Israel) in 1920. In 1948 the state of Israel was created by the United Nations.
It was the Hebrews/Israelites returning from Exile in Babylon and Egypt after 586BC who were first given the name "Jews." Before that time the term is not used. The "Jews" living in Iraq today likely trace their family origins to the time of that Exile.
Canuck has a strong grasp on history of Israel. From what I remember of what happened during 1948, Britain made it possible for the United Nations to create Israel at that time.
Well well......the Org is quite a place to be when the world is in turmoil.
What a difference of opinions, experience and reasoning!! It certainly makes entertaining reading!
golach, gleber2, gleeber, canuck, fred, squidge, pulteneytooner, jaws, scotsboy, cedric etc. etc......the list goes on......it's like sitting listening to the family argue at dinnertime!
(thats a complement in case you didn't notice)
Welcome till the family Saveman, ye can sit at my table anytime, but listen till and agree with your elders [lol]
Welcome till the family Saveman, ye can sit at my table anytime, but listen till and agree with your elders [lol]
Ayeee.....me mammy taught me that.... :lol:
I have read many stories about Israel over the years.I am naive,I admit it.
Did the country of Israel only appear after the holocaust that occurred during the Second World War or should I go back to Secondary School and re-learn ma history.
It won't do you any any good going to school the history books don't tell it how it happened.
Israel came into being because of British treachery in the first world war.
Now before I go on I should urge people to check what I say before writing it off as a "conspiracy theory" or something but what isn't commonly known is that the people behind the Russian Revolution were mostly Jewish, the Bolshevik party were mostly Jews, the leaders of the revolution were mostly Jews and after the revolution the leaders of Russia were mostly Jews, 16 out of the 22 commissars on the revolutionary council. Communism was founded by Karl Marx whos grandfather was a Rabbi, Trotsky's real name was Bronstein.
The Arab world at that time was part of the Ottoman Empire and ruled by Turkey, Turkey was Germanies main ally in the First World War. Britain promised the Arabs their indipendence after the war if they would help the British, the Arabs took Britain at their word and formed an army and went to war. After the Russian revolution Britain promissed that if Britain won the war they would give the Jews a homeland hoping it would keep Russia in the war, it didn't, the Russian leaders were Jewish but they wern't Zionist and Russia made peace with Germany.
That is how it all started, Britain promised what is now Israel to two people in exchange for help in the war and gave it to the ones that didn't help us.
There was no Israel before 1948, it is an artificial country, that is what all the trouble is about yet whenever anyone suggests going back and rectifying the mistake be it me or the Iranian Prime Minister they get called every name under the sun. All it would take would be for the world to admit they made a big mistake, stop recognising Israel as a country then sitting down and negotiating a solution which would be acceptable to the Palestinians and the problem would be solved.
The Palestinians are realists, they know that the entire population of Israel can't vanish off the face of the earth, they know that the majority of Israelies were born there and none of this was their fault, there is a good chance an agreement could be reached if they are at least consulted and if the decissions arn't made by others and forced on them at the point of gun.
pultneytooner
18-Jul-06, 13:20
Has anybody else here watched the documentary by freelance journalist, james miller, who incidently was killed during the making of the documentary by israeli bedouin troops whilst waving the white flag?
What a fantastic insight into the lives of palestinian children.
Harrowing to watch as children throw rocks at tanks and bulldozers only to be fired upon, some killed by israeli soldiers.
These kids have an indoctrinated hatred of the jews from the cradle to the grave and are a sad indictment of humanity when a young kids main aim in life is death as a martyr to their cause.
Suffer the children, don't they always?
It's all the fault of the Jews/Zionists - they are surrounded by Arabs, hated by millions of gun toting Islamic hotheads, dispised as pariahs on society by many in the west, slaughtered in their millions across the centuries, hounded from pillar to post by anyone not liking their appearance or beliefs, persecuted by practically every nation they have ever chosen to live in, subjects of anti semitic claptrap on forums around the world and yet they are the only nation with the backbone to actually stand up against terrorists who bomb and kill their citizens....
Awful, nasty Jews/Zionists.....
It's all the fault of the Jews/Zionists - they are surrounded by Arabs, hated by millions of gun toting Islamic hotheads, dispised as pariahs on society by many in the west, slaughtered in their millions across the centuries, hounded from pillar to post by anyone not liking their appearance or beliefs, persecuted by practically every nation they have ever chosen to live in, subjects of anti semitic claptrap on forums around the world.....
I wonder if you have ever asked yourself why. I have, many times, with no real answers.
Marion, thanks for the vote of confidence, but I don't remember too much about Israel's history myself. What I did know was where to find the right books on my book shelf.
I wonder if you have ever asked yourself why. I have, many times, with no real answers.
Gleber2, I am assuming that you have made this an "open" question and that it is not just directed back to Madpict.
I have asked myself the "why" question. But it doesn't stop the violence.
Political, religious and cultural historians have asked the "why" question and it doesn't stop the violence.
There have been injustices identified on both sides, it doesn't stop the violence.
There have been aggressions acknowledged and retribution endured on both sides, it doesn't stop the violence.
We have to work beyond the "why", and find a way to bring the violence to an end. I realize just how simplistic such a statement is. The hatreds and the confrontational spirit are deeply entrenched. Reworking the "he said/ she said" scenario gets no closer to a solution.
Saveman, would you please pass the carrots? Thanks. Squidge can I serve you some while I have the bowl?
As to a solution, maybe, just maybe the kinds of discussions we are having will happen all over our world and slowly a new spirit will emerge, a spirit that looks beyond the faults and the blames. A spirit that says, hey, we have some interesting people here, I want to get to know them better, I want them as my friends. It worked for us. We have a pretty unique community. Let's hope that our model can take root and become a model for the world to use.
Okay, who wants pudding and a cup of tea?
Even more confusing is that anything that is anti-Jewish is labeled anti-Semitic, yet Semitic includes the Arabs as well………in fact most of the Zionist are not Semitic at all but Caucasian.
I have often wondered how such a persecuted people can inflict so much pain on others – surely you would think having gone through the experience of the holocaust they would be more understanding………I suppose it is like the old line trotted out at every sex abuse case, oh he/she was abused as a child, as if that is any form of explanation.
Marion, thanks for the vote of confidence, but I don't remember too much about Israel's history myself. What I did know was where to find the right books on my book shelf.
Gleber2, I am assuming that you have made this an "open" question and that it is not just directed back to Madpict.
I have asked myself the "why" question. But it doesn't stop the violence.
Political, religious and cultural historians have asked the "why" question and it doesn't stop the violence.
There have been injustices identified on both sides, it doesn't stop the violence.
There have been aggressions acknowledged and retribution endured on both sides, it doesn't stop the violence.
We have to work beyond the "why", and find a way to bring the violence to an end. I realize just how simplistic such a statement is. The hatreds and the confrontational spirit are deeply entrenched. Reworking the "he said/ she said" scenario gets no closer to a solution.
Saveman, would you please pass the carrots? Thanks. Squidge can I serve you some while I have the bowl?
As to a solution, maybe, just maybe the kinds of discussions we are having will happen all over our world and slowly a new spirit will emerge, a spirit that looks beyond the faults and the blames. A spirit that says, hey, we have some interesting people here, I want to get to know them better, I want them as my friends. It worked for us. We have a pretty unique community. Let's hope that our model can take root and become a model for the world to use.
Okay, who wants pudding and a cup of tea?
At Last!!!!!!! an Orger with a bit of common sense and decentcy, Thanks Canuck, you have identified most of the problems that are occuring in the Middle East.....but you are not putting the blame on any one side, there is always two sides to any disagreement, and the policy in here seems to be, "My stick is bigger than your stick so I am right", that does not get us any nearer to a solution if there is any to be had. A sad reflection on us, and the Orgers casting brickbats at each other
At Last!!!!!!! an Orger with a bit of common sense and decentcy, Thanks Canuck, you have identified most of the problems that are occuring in the Middle East.....but you are not putting the blame on any one side, there is always two sides to any disagreement, and the policy in here seems to be, "My stick is bigger than your stick so I am right", that does not get us any nearer to a solution if there is any to be had. A sad reflection on us, and the Orgers casting brickbats at each other
scotsboy's words are spot on and a great addition to what I wrote.
After the Islamic Revolution the Iranian government confiscated all personal wealth. A lot of people, not just Jews, left Iran and took their wealth with them.
Is there some reason you didn't mention that? I mean you're quick enough to accuse me of being biassed and having ulterior motives for just stating the facts. Why didn't you say why the Jewish population in Iran dwindled?
I am aware that shortly after the Islamic Revolution that the brother of one of my personal friends was under sentence of death in Iran. His hideous Criminal Offence? He simply held the wrong political views and nothing more.
Fortunately he was released prior to the sentence being carried out under one of the General Amnesties which are held from time to time but that was due to good luck in the timing.
Here are a few reasons why people might have fled Iran after the Revolution.
A Brief View of the Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Iran
Discrimination Against the Religious Minorities
In Iran the religions of Christianity, Judaism and Zoroastrism are recognised as accepted religious minorities with limited rights. Business premises belonging to these minorities must bear the sign of their religion, and they must pay a special tax, called Jazieh, for the pleasure of living in an Islamic country. The followers of any other religions, not mentioned above, are stripped of all their rights.
On February 25th 1995, the government executed Faizullah Makhubat, a 78 years old leading member of Iran’s Jewish community. After taking delivery of the body, Makhubat’s family members discovered that the eyes had been gouged out, the teeth broken and bruises covered the body.
Three Evangelical Christian ministers were murdered by unknown assailants. The Government had accused them of seeking converts among Muslims. The Rev. Mehdi Dibaj, a pastor of the Assemblies of God church, was arrested in 1993 and sentenced to death for apostasy. He was released from prison in January after his case received international publicity, but was abducted and murdered.
The Rev. Haik Hovsepian-Mehr, who served as Chairman of the Council of Protestants Ministers and Secretary General of the Assemblies of God church, was abducted in February and found dead a few days later. Prior to his murder, he reportedly refused to sign a declaration from the then Ministry of Islamic Guidance stating that Iranian Christians enjoyed full constitutional rights. His successor The Rev. Tateos Michaelian was abducted in June, his body was discovered in July, stuffed into a large freezer, with bullet wounds in the throat and the back of the neck.
Non believers such as those supporting communist ideologies have been executed purely for being non-believers. The charge against them has been made as ‘corrupters on earth’.
The Rights of Women in the velayat-e-faqih (Theocracy)
Women are the biggest victims of the Islamic Republic. They face continuos daily harassment and can be severely punished for not observing the Islamic codes of conduct. A pseudo army of female Islamic fanatics called ‘The Sisters of Zeinab’ patrol the streets and punish women who are not fully compliant with the Islamic code of dress. This can mean wearing make up or a few strands of hair being visible.
According to the constitution of the Islamic Republic the goal set for women, is to regain their critical role of motherhood and to bring up good committed Moslems which will promote their status in the society.
Let us expand on these so called ‘Islamic Values’, the ‘Law of Talion’ voted by the Iranian Parliament states the following :
Article 114 If a woman whose fornication has been proved by evidence and is condemned to stoning, runs away from the hole in which she is buried to the waist, she should be brought back for chastisement.
Article 116. For stoning, it is necessary that stones should not be too large so that the person does not die from the throwing of the first or second stone, and they must not be too small, the size of a pebble.
Raping of women political prisoners is widespread and official in the Islamic Republic. Virgin girls sentenced to execution are raped before the sentence is carried out so as to prevent them from reaching heaven after death. According to Islam virgins will go to heaven regardless of their sins.
Raping women political prisoners is also “justified” by the following interpretation of Islam :
‘Knowing that most of the women prisoners have been found guilty of waging a war against Allah, they will acquire the status of prisoners of war and can furthermore be considered as slaves of the warriors of Islam, i.e. the revolutionary guards. Each of the women can thus belong to a guardian. The guardian can lawfully consider his slave as his concubine and force on her sexual relations.’
The Islamic Republic of Iran has not even spared pregnant women from execution if they have been found guilty of opposing the regime.
Islamic Republic of Iran : Infanticide
Children as young as 13 have been executed if caught in acts of ‘Rebellion against the Islamic Republic’.
Lajevardi, the revolutionary prosecuting attorney of Tehran, declared on June 23, 1981 :
‘ The enemy sends little girls into the streets to demonstrate, but they should know that we shall show no pity for these girls of 13 to 14 and not even 9 years old who carry knives. The Koran allows the faithful to kill right there and then the opponents of Islam if they are injured in the demonstrations.’
Apart from official executions many have been assassinated in demonstrations. (The reader should read) the following excerpt regarding demonstrations from Ayatollah Moussavi-Ardebili the Minister of Justice (!) in 1981;
‘We will punish all opponents and demonstrators. We will kill them without pity’. (18/09/81)
and from Mohamad-Gilani, the then Islamic Prosecutor General;
‘All medical help given to the wounded demonstrators is forbidden. They ought to be executed on the spot.’
There were also thousands of little boys from nine to fourteen years old who died as a result of being used in the operations of mine clearance.
http://impact.users.netlink.co.uk/namir/intro2.doc
I find the implication that the only reasons for Jews to leave Iran was for no other reason than depicting them as "Miserly Jews" to be nothing more than a poor attempt at Racial Stereotyping. From the above I can think of many reasons I would avoid the place like the plague.
When God's chosen people, according to the bible, came to the Land of Milk and Honey, their first job was to get rid of those who were already enjoying the milk and honey. The same thing happened at the time of the Exodus only this time it was other Jews who were in the way. Got rid of in the same way. Not a way to make friends and influence people.
Racial kharma always catches up and I feel it has a way to go yet.The Jewish race thinks it has a direct mandate from heaven to do what they want to achieve their ends. This is not true and it is not surprising that this attitude has created so many enemies. Humility and understanding that others have the same right to existance as they have would go a long way to healing the many breaches. Continued hostility towards everyone who disagrees with them will achieve nothing but more violence. Nobody likes a bully,do they, whatever the cause?
In the light of Jewish history and the way they have been treated, you would think that they would have a little more compassion for the Palestinians whose only crime was to occupy, under Turkey, the country of Palestine in the absence of the Jews.
Golach, have you thrown away your store of brickbats?? I find it hard to believe!!!:confused
To save those who prefer not to wade through page after page of detail the items below show just how close the extremists on the Political Right and Left are in their anti-Jewish views. Do not fall for the pretence that there is a difference between anti-Jewish and anti-Zionist. It is exactly the same play on words used by the BNP pretending that non-British includes Europeans when everybody knows full well that it means nothing other than non-whites.
The first extracts are of speeches made by that nice man Adolf Hitler prior to WW" when everybody knew that what he said would never happen because he didn't really mean it. Not only that, but he was being misrepresented by unscrupulous people and a biased media.
The second extracts are concerning the Soviet Union and it's attitudes towards Jews and by the Stalinist Communist Party after it's break-up.
It's surprising just how close they are in their political beliefs and theories about the causes of all the problems of their Nations and also to some of the theories expressed here from time to time.
With respect to fred’s comments on the Jew Ridden Soviet Revolution here is a short extract from an item later in this post, again for the benefit of those who have no wish to check every ‘i’ for dots and ‘t’s for crosses.
Campaign for Solidarity With Workers in the Eastern Bloc, Stalinism and Anti-Semitism, London, 1990, A more complete version follows later.
This pamphlet aims to explain the current rise in anti-Semitism in the Soviet Union by showing that it is not a new phenomenon, but is deeply rooted in old Russian traditions, and has been continually manipulated by the bureaucracy in order to provide a scapegoat to divert popular discontent away from the authorities onto another target.
It argues that the official promotion of anti-Semitism started in the mid-1920s, when Stalin hinted at the Jewish backgrounds of Trotsky, Zinoviev and other oppositionists, and `as Stalin consolidated his grip on Soviet society, the level of repression of Jews and Jewish organisations and institutions rose in tandem'.
I think that explains were the "Jew Ridden Russian Revolution " story originated and why. Stalin was good at creative methods of finding reasons to dispose of anybody he thought might ba a challenge to him.
Personally I blame it all on the Romans without whom the whole sad sorry state of affairs would never have arisen, if only they had left the Jews where they were all would have been fine.
Here are the thoughts of some people you may have heard of.
For us, it is a problem of whether our nation can ever recover its health, whether the Jewish spirit can ever really be eradicated. Don't be misled into thinking you can fight a disease without killing the carrier, without destroying the bacillus. Don't think you can fight racial tuberculosis without taking care to rid the nation of the carrier of that racial tuberculosis. This Jewish contamination will not subside, this poisoning of the nation will not end, until the carrier himself, the Jew, has been banished from our midst.
Adolf Hitler August 1920
"If I am ever really in power, the destruction of the Jews will be my first and most important job. As soon as I have power, I shall have gallows after gallows erected, for example, in Munich on the Marienplatz-as many of them as traffic allows. Then the Jews will be hanged one after another, and they will stay hanging until they stink. They will stay hanging as long as hygienically possible. As soon as they are untied, then the next group will follow and that will continue until the last Jew in Munich is exterminated. Exactly the same procedure will be followed in other cities until Germany is cleansed of the last Jew!"
Adolf Hitler 1922
"Why does the world shed crocodile’s tears over the richly merited fate of a small Jewish minority?
Adolph Hitler 1933
"Europe cannot find peace until the Jewish question has been solved. …One thing I should like to say on this day [the sixth anniversary of his being appointed Chancellor of the Reich] which may be memorable for others as well as for us Germans. In the course of my life I have very often been a prophet and have usually been ridiculed for it. … Today I will once more be a prophet: if the international Jewish financiers in and outside Europe should succeed in plunging the nations once more into a world war, then the result will not be the Bolshivization of the earth, and thus the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe."
Adolf Hitler January 1939
"Only when this Jewish bacillus infecting the life of peoples has been removed can one hope to establish a co-operation amongst the nations which shall be built up on a lasting understanding."
Adolf Hitler April 1939
"From the rostrum of the Reichstag, I prophesied to Jewry that, in the event of war’s proving inevitable, the Jew would disappear from Europe. That race of criminals has on its conscience the two million dead of the First World War, and now already hundreds and thousands more. Let nobody tell me that all the same we can’t park them in the marshy parts of Russia! Who’s worrying about our troops? It’s not a bad idea, by the way, that public rumour attributes to us a plan to exterminate the Jews. Terror is a salutary thing."
Adolf Hitler October 1941
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/statements.htm
Action Report July 1999
A grandson of Stalin has found a familiar target for Russia's current woes -- the Jews. Yevgeny Dzhugashvili charged that "Zionists" are ravaging Russia and that there are "practically no [ethnic] Russians" in the current Russian Cabinet, the Interfax news agency reported.
The statement was similar to a series of anti-Semitic remarks made in recent months by prominent members of the Communist Party, who charged that there have been too many Jews in the government of Russian President Boris Yeltsin and that they are responsible for Russia's ongoing economic and social problems. Russia's 30-member government includes two officials with known Jewish roots.
Stalin was responsible for several cruel waves of persecution in the Soviet Union, including some that involved anti-Semitism. Dzhugashvili, a retired air force colonel, was speaking to a crowd of 100 supporters of several radical leftists groups that rallied near Moscow's Red Square to protest Russian President Boris Yeltsin's reported intention to bury Lenin's embalmed body.
Earlier this year, Dzhugashvili launched a new leftist electoral coalition called the Stalinist Bloc. The bloc, which supports the reconstitution of the Soviet Union, is composed of radical leftist and anti-Semitic elements. Dzhugashvili, who like other descendants of Stalin kept a low profile during the later years of the Soviet Union, lives in the former Soviet republic of Georgia, where he heads the 50,000-member Stalin Society.
Dzhugashvili has made several thinly veiled anti-Semitic remarks in the past. Earlier this year, he was quoted as saying at a public rally that "in contrast to the war against Nazi Germany, the enemy today is among us and hiding." Stalin unleashed a state-sponsored anti-Semitic campaign in the Soviet Union after World War II.
http://www.fpp.co.uk/BoD/origins/Stalinsson.html
Campaign for Solidarity With Workers in the Eastern Bloc, Stalinism and Anti-Semitism, London, 1990,
This pamphlet aims to explain the current rise in anti-Semitism in the Soviet Union by showing that it is not a new phenomenon, but is deeply rooted in old Russian traditions, and has been continually manipulated by the bureaucracy in order to provide a scapegoat to divert popular discontent away from the authorities onto another target.
It argues that the official promotion of anti-Semitism started in the mid-1920s, when Stalin hinted at the Jewish backgrounds of Trotsky, Zinoviev and other oppositionists, and `as Stalin consolidated his grip on Soviet society, the level of repression of Jews and Jewish organisations and institutions rose in tandem'. Stalin's measures against Soviet Jewry, the `anti-cosmopolitanism' campaign of 1948-49, the `Doctor's Plot' and his plans for their deportation to the east, are described, as are the anti-Semitic measures of the post-Stalin era, the `economic' trials, in which Jewish defendants were prominently featured, and the steady stream of anti-Semitic tracts masquerading as anti-Zionism.
The pamphlet does not explain precisely why the vicious campaign against `cosmopolitanism' blew up in 1948. It was an integral part of the atmosphere of the time, when Stalin fought the Cold War on the home front by sealing off the Soviet bloc from the rest of the world, and promoting virulent nationalist sentiments. Soviet Jews were an immediate target. That many of them had relations abroad, especially in the USA, and, after the terrible experiences they had suffered in wartime Europe, looked positively at the new state of Israel, was enough for Stalin to view them as potentially disloyal.
Whilst anti-Semitic organisations have no lack of support within the state machine, an official anti-Semitic campaign is unlikely in the short term. Gorbachev needs all the support he can get, and most Soviet Jews support his reform policies. As the majority of Soviet Jews work within the state sector, a purge of several million people would be highly disruptive (which is probably why Stalin's planned deportation of the Jews was abandoned after his death). Nevertheless, the open promotion of nationalism as the Soviet bureaucracy fragments along national lines, makes a resurgence of official anti-Semitism more likely.
http://www.revolutionary-history.co.uk/backiss/Vol3/No4/RevCamp.html
As to a solution, maybe, just maybe the kinds of discussions we are having will happen all over our world and slowly a new spirit will emerge, a spirit that looks beyond the faults and the blames. A spirit that says, hey, we have some interesting people here, I want to get to know them better, I want them as my friends. It worked for us. We have a pretty unique community. Let's hope that our model can take root and become a model for the world to use.
I hope you are right but don't see it happening any time soon. BBC reporters talking to people fleeing Lebanon were told how terrible it was about bombings in Lebanon but when challenged that rocket attacks on Israel were just as bad, the attitude was "No, that's not true, they deserve it"
People are taught to hate other people from the moment they are old enough to talk. It is ingrained in the psyche and, frankly, most people are not intelligent enough to think for themselves and see the insanity of their attitude. The world could be so much better but we are basically too thick, collectively to share the gifts that are there for us to enjoy in a world where there is no need for anyone to go hungry or be homeless.
I feel we will probably still be laying into each other with the branches of the last tree standing on the planet unless we can get a grip on ourselves and stop living the shallow consumer existence.
People are taught to hate other people from the moment they are old enough to talk. It is ingrained in the psyche and, frankly, most people are not intelligent enough to think for themselves and see the insanity of their attitude. The world could be so much better but we are basically too thick, collectively to share the gifts that are there for us to enjoy in a world where there is no need for anyone to go hungry or be homeless.
I feel we will probably still be laying into each other with the branches of the last tree standing on the planet unless we can get a grip on ourselves and stop living the shallow consumer existence.
How horribly true and, in my opinion the clearest post in this thread so far. You say that we are collectively too thick but I have maintained for a long time that we are collectively insane. With no divine intervention expected and no saviour to be found on the planet, our salvation and future lies in the hands of we individuals who are continuing to live the shallow consumer existence while we blame the leaders elected by us for all our troubles.
Even here, we cannot state a contrary thought without getting shot down in personal flames for daring to be different.
Personally, I see no salvation or change in our future and when the bombs are falling everywhere, perhaps the rose tinted spectacles will be removed and we humans will see the result of our collective blindness to what is glaringly obvious. We are destroying Mother Earth in that blindness.
How horribly true and, in my opinion the clearest post in this thread so far. You say that we are collectively too thick but I have maintained for a long time that we are collectively insane. With no divine intervention expected and no saviour to be found on the planet, our salvation and future lies in the hands of we individuals who are continuing to live the shallow consumer existence while we blame the leaders elected by us for all our troubles.
Even here, we cannot state a contrary thought without getting shot down in personal flames for daring to be different.
Personally, I see no salvation or change in our future and when the bombs are falling everywhere, perhaps the rose tinted spectacles will be removed and we humans will see the result of our collective blindness to what is glaringly obvious. We are destroying Mother Earth in that blindness.
I'm not here to throw flames. If anything I am more likely to go down with you if you think that flames are being thrown. However, I can be brave, because I've never noticed a whole lot of evidence to support your claim that you have been shot down. I agree with most of what you say and what Scorrie has written before you. I have written earlier that I do not think that the whole of society is insane.
My concern it that people do look for divine intervention and a saviour as a way to avoid taking responsibilty and addressing the situation. I think that it is a cop out. We have the skills, the tools and the resouces to bring this to a positive resolution if we would only use them.
Time for the after dinner mints.
That's a nice dessert or should that be Desert.
Good gosh I hope not. USA has more than it can handle with Afghanistan and Iraq for the present time.
Did you see Fox News (http://www.videos.informationclearinghouse.info/Gibson-Woolsey.wmv)?
People are taught to hate other people from the moment they are old enough to talk. It is ingrained in the psyche and, frankly, most people are not intelligent enough to think for themselves and see the insanity of their attitude. I feel we will probably still be laying into each other with the branches of the last tree standing on the planet unless we can get a grip on ourselves and stop living the shallow consumer existence.
If it is true that we are tought to hate from the moment we are old enough to talk then maybe we can influence the world in our own small way. By looking at ourselves and our own thoughts and actions and attitudes to one another in a small scale we can perhaps start to slow the tide of hate. Whether it be black,white, arab, jew, tinks or football teams maybe we could all try a little harder to take the "hate" out of our lives. The next time we think about making a disparaging remark about the "tinks" that live down the road or the Immigrants that are taking all our jobs we should think about the way our children and others receive that. If we can stop ourselves from demonstrating our prejudice and hatred then our children are less likely to perpetuate that.
God is not someone i am very close to I am afraid, religion fills me with an uncertainty that i dont know what i am talking about but it seems to me that for me to live a "broadly christian" life, forgiving and loving my "neighbour" isnt a bad life to aspire too. To try hard to foster a sense of tolerance and understanding for others in my children, to avoid labelling people and striving to drive out the prejudice and hatred that they could easily pick up from others in our community is the way i have tried to do this. I probably havent got it right but in my small way i hope i have made a difference somewhere and "walked the talk" as best i can.
That's a nice dessert or should that be Desert.
I'm not deserting anyone, especially not the human race.
By the way, as I type Gleber2 stands at 994 posts and fred at 993. It there a race going on for the first to 1K orger status?
[quote=squidge]If it is true that we are tought to hate from the moment we are old enough to talk then maybe we can influence the world in our own small way. ...etc
Squidge
I wish I had the eloquence to have come up with this myself.I whole-heartedly agree with the sentiment that if we can change our own impressions of people around us then perhaps we can start to influence others to hate less and tolerate more.
I have no religious tendancies what so ever and sometimes think this world would be a better place without the need to believe in deities in any shape or form
I'm not deserting anyone, especially not the human race.
By the way, as I type Gleber2 stands at 994 posts and fred at 993. It there a race going on for the first to 1K orger status?
I hadn't even noticed till you mentioned it.
I hadn't even noticed till you mentioned it.
Nor I. Trust her set set us against each other.
That's a nice dessert or should that be Desert.
I prefer a nice cheese board
I prefer a nice cheese board
Trust ye ya trosk.
What I have enjoyed most about this thread is that people who are usually so eager to express their abhorrence at the slightest hint of racial prejudice in others and scream loudest that such attitudes are the beliefs of the vilest most ignorant people on earth are themselves prone to display exactly the same attitudes when the right buttons are pressed.
To hurl abuse at one race is classed as Racism whilst to hurl abuse at a different race is perfectly acceptable as fair comment.
“All races are equal, but some are less equal than others!”
I must bear that in mind when accusations of racial bias are thrown around at any future time.
How long before somebody has the guts to put their feelings into words, the sentiments are hinted at in the background in the mildest possible way.
When will somebody have the guts to say what they really mean, "Juden Raus!"
You're right, Jaws, but sometimes the truth reads very like racism.
Nor I. Trust her set set us against each other.
I'm not playing, doesn't bother me at all who gets there first.
After you.
I'm not playing, doesn't bother me at all who gets there first.
After you.
Gosh Fred, you're so perfect!!!! LOL
I'm not playing, doesn't bother me at all who gets there first.
After you.
No I wasn't setting anyone up against anyone else. I just happened to observe that you were both getting very close to 1000 and then that you both had the same number.
Gosh Fred, you're so perfect!!!! LOL
Watch it Gleber2 Fred will take his ball back ....and then what will you have to play with......sheeezzz what a bunch o bairns :eek:
Watch it Gleber2 Fred will take his ball back ....and then what will you have to play with......sheeezzz what a bunch o bairns :eek:
Watch where you throw your brickbats.
You're right, Jaws, but sometimes the truth reads very like racism.If it reads very like racism then it invariably is classed as Racism.
Others in the past have the term used against them in order to intimate to people that they are expounding views with the intent of inciting Racial Hatred.
At such times the facts were immediately cast aside as irrelevant on the grounds that it was the underlying intent which was of greater importance.
I would suggest that the underlying intent of some of the posts could well lead to some people arriving at the conclusion that sweeping generalisations about certain ethnic groups were in fact correct and would apply to all that ethnic group.
That is something which I personally would consider to be comments of a Racist Nature.
Were the same accusations and innuendoes to have been made against other ethnic groups there would have been immediate accusations of Racial Stereotyping.
I am willing to accept that such a view is only my personal opinion, it is up to others to decide if they view such stereotyping in the same way.
If it reads very like racism then it invariably is classed as Racism.
Others in the past have the term used against them in order to intimate to people that they are expounding views with the intent of inciting Racial Hatred.
At such times the facts were immediately cast aside as irrelevant on the grounds that it was the underlying intent which was of greater importance.
I would suggest that the underlying intent of some of the posts could well lead to some people arriving at the conclusion that sweeping generalisations about certain ethnic groups were in fact correct and would apply to all that ethnic group.
That is something which I personally would consider to be comments of a Racist Nature.
Were the same accusations and innuendoes to have been made against other ethnic groups there would have been immediate accusations of Racial Stereotyping.
I am willing to accept that such a view is only my personal opinion, it is up to others to decide if they view such stereotyping in the same way.
If positive things are written (said) about an ethnic group is it considered Racist?
Also, if the whole of humanity is commented on in a negative way, it that racist?
If positive things are written (said) about an ethnic group is it considered Racist?
Also, if the whole of humanity is commented on in a negative way, it that racist?I once got accused of making a Racist Comment for saying the Chinese were, in general, quite law-abiding.
Genuine Racism I have very little patience with on the other hand I also find I have no tolerence when the accusation is used to abuse somebody, especially when it is done in order to stiffle legitimate debate.
I once got accused of making a Racist Comment for saying the Chinese were, in general, quite law-abiding.
Genuine Racism I have very little patience with on the other hand I also find I have no tolerence when the accusation is used to abuse somebody, especially when it is done in order to stiffle legitimate debate.
So there are occasions when calling someone a racist could be a positive thing?
There are certain genetic factors which define race. We don't normally refer to medical observations as racist. There must be a way to be honest, genuine and truthful without the negative connotation that the word "racist" carries with it.
Okay, squidge, I have wandered very far from the blockade issue which started this thread.
pultneytooner
19-Jul-06, 07:33
I once got accused of making a Racist Comment for saying the Chinese were, in general, quite law-abiding.
Genuine Racism I have very little patience with on the other hand I also find I have no tolerence when the accusation is used to abuse somebody, especially when it is done in order to stiffle legitimate debate. Exactly, there are some things that are very hard to talk about for fear of being branded a racist, anti - semitic, whatever, which as you say is just another tactic to stifle debate.
pultneytooner
19-Jul-06, 07:46
Did you see Fox News (http://www.videos.informationclearinghouse.info/Gibson-Woolsey.wmv)?
What a nutcase, hope this isn't going to be the united stated next move but probably will be.
I think its important to ensure that we are clear what we are talking about, I deplore the actions of Hezbollah but i dont beleive all arabs are "gun toting terrorists". I think the israeli government and their disproportionate action is completely out of order but i dont beleive the israeli people should be denied a place to live or driven into the sea. There may very well be - as Fred pointed out - a large number of jews responsible for the russian revolution but that doesnt mean the jews are behind every conspiracy going. Its the same thing whatever way you look at it - i have an irish friend who is not the brightest lad, kind and funny but he would be the first to say he isnt the smartest cookie - i dont think all irish people are thick. There are people claiming benefits who dont want to work but that doesnt mean that everyone on the dole is a scrounger. Black white male female jewish muslim christian arab people are individuals - there are good, bad, smart, not so smart, beautiful and plain in every race and thats worth remembering.
If it reads very like racism then it invariably is classed as Racism.
Racism is the extreme bias being shown against the Arab peoples by the worlds press.
Memories only go back as far as the 25th of June when the Palestinians took an Israeli soldier hostage. If you look beyond the 25th of June and look very closely at the papers you will find hidden away inside somewhere this story:
Israel arrest two in Gaza raid. (http://www.newsone.ca/piercelandherald/stories/news-00197735.html)
On the 24th of June, just as Hamas were about to agree to a seperate Palestinian state, Israeli commandos crossed into Palestine and grabbed two sons of a prominant local Hamas leader.
Why didn't it make the headlines? What is the difference between Hamas crossing the border and grabbing an Israeli soldier and Israel crossing the border and grabbing a Hamas leaders sons? Why is the worlds press looking back at the 25th of June and saying that's when the trouble started and totally ignoring what happened on the 24th of June?
That is blatant racism on the part of the worlds madia right infront of our eyes every day, every day they are blaming the victims. For decades the Palestinians have been persecuted, driven from their homes, arrested and imprissoned without trial and made second class citizens in their own land. If you want to see racism look no further than the Israeli Jews only roads, look at the Palestinians who have to have a different coloured numberplate on their cars, look at the West Bank Barrier, look at the host of Israeli laws which discriminate against Moslems like the Nationality and Entry law.
But you don't want to see that racism do you.
Blazing Sporrans
19-Jul-06, 10:49
racism
n 1: the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races 2: discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race
The ICERD (International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination) defines racism as follows;
“Any distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment, or exercise, on equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural, or any other field of public life.”
ACPOS published its Race Diversity Strategy on 14 March 2000, and followed it with a detailed Guidance Manual on 1 August 2000. The Guidance Manual provides detailed advice on the recommendations of the Lawrence Inquiry for Scottish Police Forces. The Manual was produced in consultation with the Scottish Executive Stephen Lawrence Inquiry Steering Group.
On 1 November 1999 ACPOS accepted and adopted the definition of a racist incident as given by Sir William Macpherson in his inquiry into the death of Stephen Lawrence. In the section on reporting racist incidents, the Guidance Manual makes clear that the definition removes any element of discretionary de-classification by the police at the reporting and recording stage.
"A racist incident is any incident which is perceived to be racist by the victim or any other person".
Apologies for straying from the thread here, however given the context of certain comments made in this thread, I thought it might be relevant to see how 'racism' is defined within apsects of everyday life. Apologies for references to ACPOS (Association of Chief Police Officers (Scotland), as opposed to ACPO, which covers England and Wales (it's not designed to be deliberately non-inclusionist to any non-Scottish readers :Razz ). ACPOS was only referred to as the site is based here in Scotland. It can also be implied that if ACPOS uses the definition of a racist incident from the Macpherson Report, then ACPO will do the same.
racism
n 1: the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races 2: discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race
The ICERD (International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination) defines racism as follows;
“Any distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment, or exercise, on equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural, or any other field of public life.”
Thank you. (If any of those smilie faces represent hugs then please imagine one of them here.)
If we work with those definitions in mind we should be able to remove some of the barbs in our discussion.
If it is true that we are tought to hate from the moment we are old enough to talk then maybe we can influence the world in our own small way. By looking at ourselves and our own thoughts and actions and attitudes to one another in a small scale we can perhaps start to slow the tide of hate. Whether it be black,white, arab, jew, tinks or football teams maybe we could all try a little harder to take the "hate" out of our lives. The next time we think about making a disparaging remark about the "tinks" that live down the road or the Immigrants that are taking all our jobs we should think about the way our children and others receive that. If we can stop ourselves from demonstrating our prejudice and hatred then our children are less likely to perpetuate that.
This is true but it requires people to stop, think and analyse themselves and their conduct. How many people will actually do that? How many will be more likely to be tuning into Big Brother instead?
It is just too much like hard work to learn a little about other races and religions to perhaps understand and tolerate them better. Far easier to bang a label on them and file them all under "Johnny Foreigner"
Perhaps our media could do a better job of representing the important events in the world. Yesterday's Daily Mail for example, front page, not a mention about Lebanon/Israel, instead a warning about not rubbing in sun cream and the photo of a bairn with a melting ice cream cone!! That's a supposed quality tabloid too. Phew, what a scorcher!!
Perhaps our media could do a better job of representing the important events in the world. Yesterday's Daily Mail for example, front page, not a mention about Lebanon/Israel, instead a warning about not rubbing in sun cream and the photo of a bairn with a melting ice cream cone!! That's a supposed quality tabloid too. Phew, what a scorcher!!
The mail a "quality tabloid"??? ;) I think not lol. Quality toilet paper maybe. You are right about the press though - they could do a better job.
The mail a "quality tabloid"??? ;) I think not lol. Quality toilet paper maybe. You are right about the press though - they could do a better job.
It's not all that good as toilet paper either, except you can usually find a good picture of Tony Blair in there somewhere. That gets cut out and takes pride of place on the string on my toilet door, I use it to bring a smile to my face when I'm feeling low.
Cedric Farthsbottom III
19-Jul-06, 21:13
Thanks to everyone for the jist on Israel's history.Saved me a bit o' reading,but i will find oot more.
I know this has nothing to do wi' the thread but squidge wi' the daily mail reminded me o' an article I read in it last week.This paper ripped apart the Italian media for the Princess Diana's photo's that were published.So,why did they print the front page of the magazine with the actual photo on it,next to their article.
I think I'll stick to the Groat.
I am sure if we caithnessians are nice to these pitiful people who go about killing in the name of allah then they will return the compliment....
[QUOTE=fred] If you want to see racism look no further than the Israeli Jews QUOTE]
That comment in itself is nothing more and nothing less than a blatantly Racixt Statement.
That comment in itself is nothing more and nothing less than a blatantly Racixt Statement.
It isn't going to work this time. For years Israel has committed abuse after abuse and anyone who spoke out against them got labled "anti-semitc" so a world filled with guilt over the holocaust would turn against them.
The west has nothing to be guilty about over the death of millions of Jews, Hitler killed those Jews not the people of the west, what the west has to be guilty about is looking the other way and pretending it wasn't happening, what the west has to be guilty about is doing nothing to stop it happening, making excuses, demonising those who did speak out.
What the west has to be guilty about is what you are doing now.
pultneytooner
20-Jul-06, 13:33
It isn't going to work this time. For years Israel has committed abuse after abuse and anyone who spoke out against them got labled "anti-semitc" so a world filled with guilt over the holocaust would turn against them.
The west has nothing to be guilty about over the death of millions of Jews, Hitler killed those Jews not the people of the west, what the west has to be guilty about is looking the other way and pretending it wasn't happening, what the west has to be guilty about is doing nothing to stop it happening, making excuses, demonising those who did speak out.
What the west has to be guilty about is what you are doing now.
Well said fred, too often people conveniently forget how the israelis are guilty of evil crimes the same as the palestinians except you can decry the arab fighting a foreign oppressor but don't dare say anything about the jews of israel, not that I personaly have anything against them, people should try to understand both sides.;)
It's very easy for you sitting in your nice safe house, wherever it may be, to decry the Israelis for their actions but they have been subjected to years of terrorist suicide bombings and attacks from across their borders.
I think that the people behind Hezbollah should be the ones you are pointing the finger at over this latest crisis - sure the Israelis may be seen to be acting in a heavy handed manner but should they just turn the other cheek and allow even more of their citizens to be killed or maimed by the proxy forces of another state?
It is obvious from his posts that "fred" is anti-Israeli.........
It's very easy for you sitting in your nice safe house, wherever it may be, to decry the Israelis for their actions but they have been subjected to years of terrorist suicide bombings and attacks from across their borders.
I think that the people behind Hezbollah should be the ones you are pointing the finger at over this latest crisis - sure the Israelis may be seen to be acting in a heavy handed manner but should they just turn the other cheek and allow even more of their citizens to be killed or maimed by the proxy forces of another state?
It is obvious from his posts that "fred" is anti-Israeli.........
I am wi ye MadPict
Well said fred, too often people conveniently forget how the israelis are guilty of evil crimes the same as the palestinians except you can decry the arab fighting a foreign oppressor but don't dare say anything about the jews of israel, not that I personaly have anything against them, people should try to understand both sides.;)
Pulneytooner and Fred sadly I have to agree Israel has passed some kind of law that prohibits anyone questioning the numbers that died in the holocaust no other country has set in place such a restriction! I don't believe the propaganda about suicide bombers either. It has been reported that Israeli soldiers have captured young Arab boys and strapped bombs to their bodies and released the photographs all over the world. The Arab boys reported that if they did not comply then they would be killed!!!! It is only correct for the victims to speak out against such blatant WICKED LIES. Unfortunately it is becoming more and more difficult to discern the truth in a sea of lies. :(
When God made the Hebrews his special pets he Promised them a land of milk and honey. Unfortunately the Amalekites and the Canaanites and others were already there. Put to the sword.
They all moved to Egypt and, upon their return they put to the sword their own people who had not fled to Egypt.
Dispersed in the First century they eventually returned to the promised land in the twentieth century and destroyed the people who had been there for centuries.
All this with Jehovah's approval. I am nor surprised that Palestine has been a little put out by the Jewish behaviour and has attacked them at every opportunity as we would do if the Vikings came back and claimed Caithness as their own and put us all in camps or to the sword.
I am not anti Jew and I am not racist but I can observe the course of history and come to my own conclusions regarding the methods they use to achieve their ends.
Like petulant children they seem to overreact and use the biggest stick possible to achieve their retribution for sins commited against them. The threat of atomic warfare is with us all the time now and the clock is ticking.
and here I thought I already was in a camp.:roll:
and here I thought I already was in a camp.:roll:
You haven't moved to Wick and started to drink in the Camps have you??
pultneytooner
20-Jul-06, 17:39
It's very easy for you sitting in your nice safe house, wherever it may be, to decry the Israelis for their actions but they have been subjected to years of terrorist suicide bombings and attacks from across their borders.
I think that the people behind Hezbollah should be the ones you are pointing the finger at over this latest crisis - sure the Israelis may be seen to be acting in a heavy handed manner but should they just turn the other cheek and allow even more of their citizens to be killed or maimed by the proxy forces of another state?
It is obvious from his posts that "fred" is anti-Israeli......... I don't see fred as being obviously anti israel, unless he comes out and says so himself, maybe he's just trying to make you see that there are two sides to this conflict and the propaganda machine constantly blames everything on the arab nations, someone has to tell it from through the eyes of the palestinians.
As I have said, if possible, get a hold of the documentary by james miller (Death In Gaza), then you can see things from a palestinian point of view and see that everything is not as cut and dried as the popular press makes out.
Can't we ever have a civillised discussion without someone being called racist, anti semitic, whatever, for having a different view from another.
You don't? Well I do - but then maybe I am misreading his posts....
I know only too well that there are two sides to every story (at the moment the BBC is being very pro Lebanon in their reports - where are the shots of dead and wounded Israeli civilians?) and I am well aware of the hardship endured by the Lebanese over the years. Just as I am aware of the hardship caused to the Israelis.
But I don't post claptrap about conspiracy theories about the Jews being behind the Russian Revolution. What good does posting this do today? What point does posting such material serve but to whip up even more anti Israeli feeling.
There are innocent Israelis being bombed by Hezbollah, a cowardly terrorist group who hide amongst the suburbs of Beirut and launch their missiles at Israel from those same suburbs. If they came out into the open and fought like the 'army' they purport to be they would be wiped out in a matter of minutes. But no, they like many other terrorist organistations prefer to wage their 'war' from amongst innocent civilians, knowing only too well that when those innocent civilians are killed or maimed and their properties destroyed in retailation, their cause will be supported by those very same victims.
And I am only too aware of the history of Israel and how the 'terrorist' Israelis bombed the King David Hotel in 1946, killing many British, Arab and Jewish people - possibly seen as the very first act of modern day terrorism....
Just as I am aware of the misery being inflicted on the people of Beirut by the military actions of Israel - action which did not start until Hezbollah started their attacks. So, Hezbollah are the instigators of this awful scenario now unfolding. Israel may well bow to pressure from the UN to cease fire, but what about Hezbollah?
It's very easy for you sitting in your nice safe house, wherever it may be, to decry the Israelis for their actions but they have been subjected to years of terrorist suicide bombings and attacks from across their borders.
They knew what the neighbours were like when they moved in.
But I don't post claptrap about conspiracy theories about the Jews being behind the Russian Revolution. What good does posting this do today? What point does posting such material serve but to whip up even more anti Israeli feeling.
Someone asked how the trouble in Palestine started and I told them.
Now if you had checked on the facts first as I said at the start of my post then this is what you would have found.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration_of_1917
See, the Bolshevik party were mostly Jewish as I said and that is why Britain promissed the Jews a homeland in Palestine.
Oh and of course you believe everything you read on the internet......
BAHHH.......
pultneytooner
20-Jul-06, 20:34
Oh and of course you believe everything you read on the internet......
BAHHH.......
Winston Churchill believed this to be a fact, no internet in his day.
Fred wrote:
They knew what the neighbours were like when they moved in.
Are you saying that Jews have only recently moved to the area? Come on Fred.
Lolabelle
20-Jul-06, 21:10
I will firstly say that I have not read all 10 pages of this thread, so I am not sure if this has been mentioned before. But in my scanning of bits, I hadn't seen it mentioned. In advance, please forgive me if I am repeating someone elses point. This all started nearly 6 thousand years ago.
In Genesis 25:23 "Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be seperated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger." This is talking about the birth of Jacob and Esau. The Isrealites descended for Jacob and the Arab nations from Esau. All to do with this blessing; Gen 27:40 "By your sword shall you live, and you shall serve your brother; and it shall come to pass, when you become restless, That you shall break his yoke from your neck." Jacob stole Esau's birthright and so the Arabs and the Isreali's and there for the west are going to be at it forever. The Arabs think that we have what should be theirs.
I am not preaching, this is in the Koran and the Bible, just that the Koran doesn't have any bits in it about the promises of God to the Children of Israel (formerly known as Jacob)
There you go, the beginning of the thing.
Lola.
Oh and of course you believe everything you read on the internet......
BAHHH.......
Some things I find very hard to believe, like the extent of human stupidity, however sometimes the evidence is just so overwhelming you can't deny it.
...and the world would be a far better place without the belief in a God or his messenger....
...or the blind obedience to what is written in a book...
pultneytooner
20-Jul-06, 21:52
The way things are portrayed in the media is very telling, isn't it?
You'll get articles very critical of arabs but trouble is when someone comes out and says bombing the hell out of palestinian / lebanese civilians, and the shooting of kids AGAIN and using F-16 airstrikes to take out lone gunmen is overkill bordering on the insane, there's the inevitable accusations of anti-semitism, like if you're at all critical of the state of israel and it's armed forces you must be a jew-hating pro-terrorist neo-nazi! like it's the fact they are jews that makes us critical of their actions!:roll:
Absolute rubbish, and an easy cop out that i find personally offensive.
Cedric Farthsbottom III
20-Jul-06, 22:01
The written word is a very powerful thing.From generation to generation it is spread through the ages.I have read the New Testament,not the Old as Genesis to me is a band who were never the same when Peter Gabriel left.
The Bible,etc to some,is a way of life.
For me,its live yir life to the best o' yir abilities and if ye live it good,then you shall always have friends. :D
pultneytooner
20-Jul-06, 23:03
Pulneytooner and Fred sadly I have to agree Israel has passed some kind of law that prohibits anyone questioning the numbers that died in the holocaust no other country has set in place such a restriction! I don't believe the propaganda about suicide bombers either. It has been reported that Israeli soldiers have captured young Arab boys and strapped bombs to their bodies and released the photographs all over the world. The Arab boys reported that if they did not comply then they would be killed!!!! It is only correct for the victims to speak out against such blatant WICKED LIES. Unfortunately it is becoming more and more difficult to discern the truth in a sea of lies. :(
You would have to discern the truth in a multitude of lies on all sides, an impossible task which those in control of the media take full advantage of.
...and the world would be a far better place without the belief in a God or his messenger....
I totally disagree with you. I guess we can leave it at that.
pultneytooner
20-Jul-06, 23:14
You don't? Well I do - but then maybe I am misreading his posts....
I know only too well that there are two sides to every story (at the moment the BBC is being very pro Lebanon in their reports - where are the shots of dead and wounded Israeli civilians?) and I am well aware of the hardship endured by the Lebanese over the years. Just as I am aware of the hardship caused to the Israelis.
But I don't post claptrap about conspiracy theories about the Jews being behind the Russian Revolution. What good does posting this do today? What point does posting such material serve but to whip up even more anti Israeli feeling.
There are innocent Israelis being bombed by Hezbollah, a cowardly terrorist group who hide amongst the suburbs of Beirut and launch their missiles at Israel from those same suburbs. If they came out into the open and fought like the 'army' they purport to be they would be wiped out in a matter of minutes. But no, they like many other terrorist organistations prefer to wage their 'war' from amongst innocent civilians, knowing only too well that when those innocent civilians are killed or maimed and their properties destroyed in retailation, their cause will be supported by those very same victims.
And I am only too aware of the history of Israel and how the 'terrorist' Israelis bombed the King David Hotel in 1946, killing many British, Arab and Jewish people - possibly seen as the very first act of modern day terrorism....
Just as I am aware of the misery being inflicted on the people of Beirut by the military actions of Israel - action which did not start until Hezbollah started their attacks. So, Hezbollah are the instigators of this awful scenario now unfolding. Israel may well bow to pressure from the UN to cease fire, but what about Hezbollah?
If you think for one minute that the actions of israel, and the US government that turns a blind eye are doing anything to stop terrorism you are sadly mistaken.
The next generation of hezbolla / hamas fighters are being radicalised as we speak, under a hail of israeli bombs!
Israel have lost about 30 people, half of them civilians, half of them soldiers, the lebanon has lost 3-400 people, the vast majority civilian, who's the terrorist, who's targetting the innocent?
There will be no peace until israel is forced to adhere to the rule of law and until then, it's a bit rich to demand everyone else does the same, under threat of F16s.
The israel apologists who demand that israel has the right to exist, and to defend itself, sure of course they do but so does everyone else.
Stop occupying their land illegally, stop bombing syrian / gazan / lebanese villages full of innocents in retribution every time you get a suicide bomber, and stop shooting their children, and bulldozing their houses, then see what happens, you might just get left in peace?
I totally disagree with you. I guess we can leave it at that.
And I respect your right to disagree with me - just as I hope you respect my right to be able to state that :)
And I respect your right to disagree with me - just as I hope you respect my right to be able to state that :)
Absolutely!
The next generation of hezbolla / hamas fighters are being radicalised as we speak, under a hail of israeli bombs!
They certainly are being radicalised and most of it has nothing to do with Israeli bombs!
At least they've stopped Hi-jacking planes and threatening to blow up British school-kids to force the release of one of their terrorists.
Dawson’s Field, I remember it well. And the Terrorist who our spineless Government released, even though she still has her sentence to serve, wanders in and out of Britain to give lectures on her poisonous ideas.
Anybody remember the Munich Olympics?
Terrorism is nothing new on the streets of Britain and I'm not talking about the Tube Bombings or the IRA for that matter.
The Lebanese gave Hezbollah the opportunity to give op their weapons and to officially become part of the Lebanese Armed Forces.
They declined the offer because they wished to retain their control of Southern Lebanon for themselves to use as a safe base from which to attack Northern Israel. .
Lebanon has always, since the Palestinians moved there, tried to make them welcome and part of their society. The Palestinians have repaid them, first by instigating a Civil War which, to all intents and purposes destroyed much of the Country and Beirut almost completely.
There are reasons why Hezbollah have suddenly decided to attack Northern Israel from Lebanon after a long period of quiet.
The UN, not many months ago, managed to press a Country which at one time had 40,000 troops in Lebanon, to remove the last few which remained after a period of twenty-five years. .
I will forecast that, given the opportunity, that same Country will start moving the same troops back into Lebanon using the excuse that it is only doing so for the protection of Lebanon and that once there will be just as difficult to be persuaded to leave.
Basically, they have engineered a situation which gives them a perfect excuse to regain their original control of Lebanon for their own advantage.
There are reasons why Hezbollah have suddenly decided to attack Northern Israel from Lebanon after a long period of quiet.
That's like saying there were reasons why Lizzie Bordens parents suddenly decided to headbut the axe.
You have completely lost touch with reality.
Countryman
21-Jul-06, 10:36
It is interesting reading all the posting, but where are the power players trying to stop the murder - they are doing nothing - UN states that it opposes excesive force - G W Bush fully supports Isreali attacks as does his friend Tony.
Come on this is a civilized world ????? stop the murder and start talking.
pultneytooner
21-Jul-06, 13:14
It is interesting reading all the posting, but where are the power players trying to stop the murder - they are doing nothing - UN states that it opposes excesive force - G W Bush fully supports Isreali attacks as does his friend Tony.
Come on this is a civilized world ????? stop the murder and start talking.
Well said countryman, it's murder on both sides israeli or arab and the sooner it's brought to a peaceful solution the better and the power lies withing the united states, britain and all other major countries to do something about it.
Murder is murder is murder![mad]
If people on a forum like this can't live in peace with other peoples opinions and beliefs then how can we possibly expect talking to cure the problems in the Middle East?
Difference is that here the most that will get lobbed is the odd barbed comment and not a volley of Katyusha rockets and if it gets out of hand the Org version of the UN trundles in and locks up the guilty parties.
Watching Sky this lunchtime it is interesting to hear that many Arab countries have come out and publicly condemned the Hezbollah actions and are noticeable in their slowness to actually call for Israel to stop the military action.
As the reporter stated (amongst his long running 'gag' about Condoleeza Rice packing and repacking her bags) many of the Arab countries in the region are Sunni, while Hezbollah are Shia, so they are more than happy for Israel to rid the region of their long standing religious 'enemy'.
The statement by the Lebanese Defence Minister that the Lebanese Army will oppose any invasion is odd - for six years they have allowed a proxy 'army' of Iran and Syria to operate with impunity in the south of the country, probably rebuilding itself for this very operation, and they have done nothing about it.
Whatever comes of the next few days, more innocents will die and be injured on both sides, and a country that was once called "Switzerland of the Middle East" could well be thrown into another bloody conflict thanks to Hezbollah.....
Canada has 50,000 people with Canadian passports either vacationing or living in Lebanon. This is the largest foreign population in the country. Our government continues to scramble to evacuate those who wish to leave. Seven have already been killed. There have been ceasefires to aid in the removal of foreigners, but we seem to have missed those windows of opportunity so they leave when they can under a barrage of rockets. The prime minister had his plane diverted on his way home from the G8 in Russia to pick up a group who had been taken to Cyprus. Many are now being taken by ship to Turkey.
Israel have carte blanche to bomb and kill for now. The big powers are a bit like the referee in a boxing match at the moment, having to let one fighter take enough punishment to satisfy the blood-lust of the baying crowd, before stepping in to stop the fight on the grounds that he has "taken enough punishment"
I remember an episode of the original Star Trek series, where warring planets did away with bombings on the grounds that it was expensive to reconstruct the buildings and the real objective was to kill members of the opposing planet. Instead they simulated the battles and then agreed on how many of the losing side's population would be killed. Watching current events makes me wonder how far from that Science "Fiction" we really are?
Canada has 50,000 people with Canadian passports either vacationing or living in Lebanon. This is the largest foreign population in the country.
Wrong - largest numbers of foreign nationals in Lebanon are the Sri Lankans -
Sri Lanka says evacuating its 80,000 nationals in Lebanon is a "logistical nightmare". The chairman of Sri Lanka's Foreign Employment Bureau vowed to get them all out if necessary but that even contacting them was very difficult.
No Navy to come and bail them out....
Then there are the 34,000 Filipinos and there is a Brazilian community - about 70,000 strong.....
Israel have carte blanche to bomb and kill for now. The big powers are a bit like the referee in a boxing match at the moment....
If that is the case then the 'referee' hasn't even got to the venue - latest news is that Blair is travelling to Washington to discuss the Middle East crisis.....
....NEXT Friday.......[lol]
YOU CAN ADD YOUR NAME TO THE PETITION, IF YOU CHOOSE TO.
Please go to http://julywar.epetition.net (http://julywar.epetition.net/) and sign the Save the Lebanese Civilians Petition and forward this invitation to your friends.
Lebanese civilians have been under the constant attack of the state of Israel for several days. The State of Israel, in disregard to international law and the Geneva Convention, is launching a maritime and air siege targeting the entire population of the country. Innocent civilians are being collectively punished in Lebanon by the state of Israel in deliberate acts of terrorism as described in Article 33 of the Geneva Convention.
http://julywar.epetition.net (http://julywar.epetition.net/)
Viewed it yesterday but seems not to working now, sorry
Wrong - largest numbers of foreign nationals in Lebanon are the Sri Lankans -
Does this mean I should be questing my trust in Canadian journalists? All of them or just the politcal reporters?
No idea about your press - but statements such as "This is the largest foreign population in the country" if incorrect should be corrected.....
There are huge numbers of Asians living in the Lebanon (as in many Arab countries) working as domestic servants.
And as with many of the UK citizens now leaving/left I would imagine that many Canadian 'citizens' are actually Lebanese born and bred who got their Canadian passports during the exodus as a result of the previous troubles there....
Most of those holding Canadian pasports are Lebanese and Palestinian.
Spittal Hill Eagle
22-Jul-06, 11:50
I don't really understand why the contributors to this message board can go from the best chipper in the north, games with films and depressed dogs to issues relating to probale Middle East and global warfare. Israel has every right to defend it's borders against opressive neighbours, as does Lebanon from attack- let's see what hapens after an almost inevitable and offensive aginst Lebanon and Syria from Israeltakes place. People worry about North Korea as a flashpoint, and rightly so, however it always has and always will be the Middle East that ignites world tension. Oil rules for now, but consider what happens when it's all done. Won't be us, but our kids and theirs. Rather them than me....
Kaishowing
22-Jul-06, 12:38
The whole damn thing has been slowly boiling away since the last election in Israel, and also the election in Lebanon. As soon as two hard-line parties took control in their respective countries, you knew it was just a matter of time. In this particular case it's both regimes being unable to take a step back after miscaulculations from both sides. Brinksmanship gone haywire.
As long as Israel feels it has the unspoken backing of the US it'll feel free to act like this, and as long as the Lebanese regime feels isolated like it is, it'll cling to whomever is friendly to them, unfortunately that would be those who are far from friendly to The West.
Thanks to the lack of spine shown by the UN in the last few years over other global troubles, any call for truce or ceasefire will be ignored, so poor old Coffy Annan was just wasting his breath.
With all the history of the peoples involved and of the region in general, there'll probably never be peace there, and at best will only have a wary truce.
pultneytooner
22-Jul-06, 13:52
I don't really understand why the contributors to this message board can go from the best chipper in the north, games with films and depressed dogs to issues relating to probale Middle East and global warfare.
It's called diversity, what forums are all about.:)
It's called diversity, what forums are all about.:)
From Golach to Crystal we represent a ridiculous cross section of Joe Public, what's so strange about the diversity of topics. I don't post about 80% of what is talked about but I am recognised as being an Elephant loving weirdo who wants drugs to be legalised and am not expected to be enthralled by "Love on the Org" and threads like it. Others thrive on the diversity. Hope you have a good time here.
I bet ye never venturew into a chipper either, Gleeber2 ;)
I don't really understand why the contributors to this message board can go from the best chipper in the north, games with films and depressed dogs to issues relating to probale Middle East and global warfare.
Why? Because Niall lets us! And because we are orgers which gives us the superpowers of being able to leap wide oceans, spew words with eloquence, challenge one another in a spirit of friendship, demonstrate our care for the world and on a really good day enjoy the best fish and chips anywhere.
I bet ye never venturew into a chipper either, Gleeber2 ;)
I was a travelling musician for many years and I've been in more chip shops than Ye've hed hot deeners check. I wouldn't voluntarilly eat from any chip shop in this area. I lived in Lancashire for a while and they really respect the chip shop cuisine. Nothing in the world better than a skate supper in Aberdeen. Sometimes I wish I wasn't a vegetarian.
Why? Because Niall lets us! And because we are orgers which gives us the superpowers of being able to leap wide oceans, spew with eloquence, challenge one another in a spirit of friendship, demonstrate our care for the world and on a really good day enjoy the best fish and chips anywhere.
Are we on the same messageboard? Maybe it's open to individual interpretation.
I was a travelling musician for many years and I've been in more chip shops than Ye've hed hot deeners check. I wouldn't voluntarilly eat from any chip shop in this area. I lived in Lancashire for a while and they really respect the chip shop cuisine. Nothing in the world better than a skate supper in Aberdeen. Sometimes I wish I wasn't a vegetarian.
As a Lancashire lass i heartily agree with you Gleber2 - chips fish and mushy peas, or hollands meat pies and steak and kidney puddings
Ahhhhhh Im homesick now
Gleber 2 wrote:
I was a travelling musician for many years and I've been in more chip shops than Ye've hed hot deeners check. I wouldn't voluntarilly eat from any chip shop in this area. I lived in Lancashire for a while and they really respect the chip shop cuisine. Nothing in the world better than a skate supper in Aberdeen. Sometimes I wish I wasn't a vegetarian.
Aye, I was referring to now though. Never had a Skate supper, sounds good - had a smoked haddy supper in Shetland.
Are there any chippers that make allowances for veggies?
Gleber 2 wrote:
Aye, I was referring to now though. Never had a Skate supper, sounds good - had a smoked haddy supper in Shetland.
Are there any chippers that make allowances for veggies?
Veggie burgers is about the best you'll get and most of them contain egg albumen.
As a Lancashire lass i heartily agree with you Gleber2 - chips fish and mushy peas, or hollands meat pies and steak and kidney puddings
Ahhhhhh Im homesick now
Stop it squidge, you've got my taste buds going. If I could do anything I wanted, a proper Lancashire Chippy is the only English thing I would insist on imposing on Caithness.
I wouldn't want to change the Caithness Chippys, I'd just add one proper Lancashire Chippy to them, including the Hollands Steak & Kidney Puds and mushy peas. I really do miss them.
Stop it squidge, you've got my taste buds going. If I could do anything I wanted, a proper Lancashire Chippy is the only English thing I would insist on imposing on Caithness.
I wouldn't want to change the Caithness Chippys, I'd just add one proper Lancashire Chippy to them, including the Hollands Steak & Kidney Puds and mushy peas. I really do miss them.
It sounds a whole lot more appealing than veggie burgers.
Kaishowing
23-Jul-06, 10:58
Murder is murder is murder![mad]
Not that I disagree, but when does it become a justifiable act?
Stopping cold a suicide bomber?....Or stopping the escape of an unarmed known terrorist to prevent any further attacks?....or maybe a Hitler figure?
When does it stop being murder and becomes Defence Of The Realm?? Is the only difference political backing?
I know that it's an old argument, but it's still interesting to see what people say!:)
And as for the original thread, I was reading this: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-2281903,00.html
and found the similarity in tactics and military situation with the Vietnam war striking. Seems the Israelies didn't read their history books!
The 20 years that Israel spent in Lebanon have been described by the Israelis as "their Vietnam" and I don't think they wish to repeat that mistake....
Kaishowing
23-Jul-06, 14:13
...perhaps that what 'they say'..........but the current situation proves them if not liars, then none too bright!
So who'll be the major force in the Middle East after this??? The USA or Iran? After all, thats what it all boils down to!
...perhaps that what 'they say'..........but the current situation proves them if not liars, then none too bright!
So they ignore the Katyusha rockets, the destruction of their infrastructure, the killing and maiming of their citizens? Unlike the UK government who rolled over and gave in to the IRA and let murders walk free from prison at least the Israelis have the guts to stand up for themselves, unpleasant as the results may be. After the Six Day War when they well and truly kicked the Arabs they were 'left alone' for many years.
You might consider them "none too bright" but many countries have learnt a lot from the tactics developed by Israel over the years.
Lessons from a fool?
I think not......
Kaishowing
23-Jul-06, 21:31
And so in response to the 'killing and maiming of their citizens', they release their military in it's entire US's catspaw splendour, and do the same in return?
What Israel have been doing is nothing different than what the English did to the Scottish during the time of Longshanks or during the clearances....Do you defend that too??
The countries that have learned most from the Israeli tactics are their own neighbours...and now turnabout is fair play!! Those same tactics are employed against them, and they don't like it!
Israel itself was created through torrorism, but when it's used to create another state or country thats a step too far!!
Don't get me wrong, I do not defend terrorism in any shape or form, but for someone to claim that the current situation in the middle-east is a measured and reasonable response astounds me.
If you think Israel is free of sin, then why not google the QIBYA MASSACRE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qibya_Massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qibya_Massacre)) ....or investigate Ariel Sharon's personal history as a terrorist.
I have friends living in both areas, just ordinary people who couldn't care less about anything other than living in peace.
So, defend away...but open your eyes to what you're defending.
And I am only too aware of the history of Israel and how the 'terrorist' Israelis bombed the King David Hotel in 1946, killing many British, Arab and Jewish people - possibly seen as the very first act of modern day terrorism....
Just as I am aware of the misery being inflicted on the people of Beirut by the military actions of Israel - action which did not start until Hezbollah started their attacks. So, Hezbollah are the instigators of this awful scenario now unfolding. Israel may well bow to pressure from the UN to cease fire, but what about Hezbollah?
Perhaps if you read back a couple of pages you would realise I am only too aware of the history of Israel....
I also am aware that Israel's hands are certainly not free from blood or blame in the past. But when terrorists acting on the behest of another nation/s creates yet more bloodshed on both sides of the border the country being attacked has the right to defend itself.
And what happened between England and Scotland in the distant past (including the betrayal of Scots by other Scots) is certainly nothing to be proud of but is far removed from the current situation in the Middle East - at least in those days it was bloody hand to hand combat and not indiscriminate bombing from miles away.
And no I do not defend the acts of greedy land owners to replace their tenants with sheep.......
So they ignore the Katyusha rockets, the destruction of their infrastructure, the killing and maiming of their citizens?
What destruction of their infrastructure? Israels infrastructure hasn't been damaged, it's Lebanons infrastructure that has been totally destroyed. Hezbollah doesn't have American laser and satelite guided bombs they only have Katyusha rockets.
Last figures I saw was 37 Israelis killed 17 of them civillian and 370 Lebonese, most of them civillian.
Hezbollah doesn't have American laser and satelite guided bombs they only have Katyusha rockets.
...they only have Katyusha rockets.
Since the fighting began Hezbollah has deployed a range of extremely sophisticated weapons against Israel. The most notable has been the Iranian C-802 Noor (Tondar) variant of the Chinese Silkworm missile that was used against an Israeli gunship off the Lebanese coast. Four Israeli sailors were killed, and the gunship was put out of commission.
The Associated Press reports that "Iran is believed to have supplied Hezbollah with up to 120 Fajr-3 and Fajr-5 rockets, with ranges of 22 miles and 45 miles respectively," noting that it was a Fajr-3 that is thought to have been responsible for an attack on Haifa that killed 8 civilians. More recently, Israeli military officials have sought to destroy sites in Lebanon believed to house long-range Zelzal missiles of Iranian manufacture that they suspect are capable of hitting Tel Aviv.
Then of course there are the 12-15,000 Katyusha rockets they have stockpiled....
Last figures I saw was 37 Israelis killed 17 of them civillian and 370 Lebonese, most of them civillian.
407 too many......
But Hezbollah threw the first 'punch'.....
pultneytooner
23-Jul-06, 23:05
So they ignore the Katyusha rockets, the destruction of their infrastructure, the killing and maiming of their citizens? Unlike the UK government who rolled over and gave in to the IRA and let murders walk free from prison at least the Israelis have the guts to stand up for themselves, unpleasant as the results may be. After the Six Day War when they well and truly kicked the Arabs they were 'left alone' for many years.
You might consider them "none too bright" but many countries have learnt a lot from the tactics developed by Israel over the years.
Lessons from a fool?
I think not......
The only ones to have won a war against an indiginous force have been the british army.
They well and truly kicked the arabs, well there is a sweeping statement if ever I heard one.
Listen mate, israel, yes, a great warrior nation but so what, they still murder innocent children and are nothing to be proud of.
Israel took on Egypt, Syria and Jordan and after six days Israeli troops were less than 100 km from Cairo and less than 50 km from Damascus and Amman.
Bearing in mind that the Arab countries also had the support of the likes of Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Algeria, Sudan and Kuwait I think they left the Arab world with a bad taste in their collective mouths for many, many years.
Sweeping statement? Maybe. But true......
And I am going to say this for the last time - INNOCENT MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN ARE DYING ON BOTH SIDES OF THE BORDER.
But many people in this forum seem to think that anything the Israelis get they deserve.
Guess you should ask an Israeli how they feel....
pultneytooner
23-Jul-06, 23:31
Guess you should ask an Israeli how they feel....
Fair comment if you also see how it is on the other side.
But Hezbollah threw the first 'punch'.....
Did they?
What do you call the first punch?
pultneytooner
23-Jul-06, 23:38
Israel took on Egypt, Syria and Jordan and after six days Israeli troops were less than 100 km from Cairo and less than 50 km from Damascus and Amman.
Bearing in mind that the Arab countries also had the support of the likes of Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Algeria, Sudan and Kuwait I think they left the Arab world with a bad taste in their collective mouths for many, many years.
Sweeping statement? Maybe. But true......
And I am going to say this for the last time - INNOCENT MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN ARE DYING ON BOTH SIDES OF THE BORDER.
But many people in this forum seem to think that anything the Israelis get they deserve.
Guess you should ask an Israeli how they feel.... You stated before that if hezbollah or hamas came out in the open then israel would wipe them out, I ask you then why would they, israel is by far and above a more powerful nation than most arab countries so maybe the only option is to fight the way they have been fighting.
Had enough of this thread - bye......
For background information of the causes of the problems in Lebanon the following site gives fairly brief but factual information about Lebanon.
The people of Lebanon, a mixture of 30% Christians, mainly Arab Maronites, and 70% Muslim, mainly Sunni and Shia, who have managed to co-exist in almost total peace for countless centuries and even managed to avoid getting entangled in the various Arab/Israeli conflicts.
All that changed in 1970 after the Palestinians, having created a State within a State in Jordan made a violent attempt to overthrow the Jordanian Government in an attempt to take control of the Country and, having failed, were forcibly evicted from Jordan..
They then moved mainly into Southern Lebanon near the border with Israel.
The aftermath of the Palestinians moving into Lebanon is explained in the site below in the Sections after the Heading, “ Lebanon, Israel, and the Palestinians” which gives a very good account of the facts with no attempts to place blame.
It’s fairly brief and only takes a few moments to read.
I should help give those who are unaware of the background to the current happenings some insight as to it’s causes.
Please give the site at least a glance and after that what conclusions, if any, you come to I will leave to yourselves.
For that reason I have made no comment on what information is contained there.
http://columbia.thefreedictionary.com/Lebanon
Just fot your info, I found the site by Googling "Lebanon Maronite". It's only one version so feel free to check further should anybody wish.
INNOCENT MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN ARE DYING ON BOTH SIDES OF THE BORDER.
Madpict, I understand why you feel you must leave. But your words need to be repeated and repeated and I shall do that here.
Innocent men, women and children are dying on both sides of the borders.
(Red was chosen not for emphasis, but rather to make the point that the blood that is spilled runs with the same colour no matter who sheds it.)
Kaishowing
24-Jul-06, 01:19
....many people in this forum seem to think that anything the Israelis get they deserve.
I don't think any country or it's citizens deserve to be bombed, by plane or semtex webbing...but when a nation the size and technical superiority of Israel engage in a conflict like this, it's very hard not to see them as the aggressor, even when suicide bombers wreak their havoc.
Maybe Hezbollah did escalate the current situation (actually there's no 'maybe' about it), but I don't think many would call the mobalization of such a huge percentage of the Israeli army a 'measured response'.
For generations they've enjoyed the backing of a super-power, and feel themselves to be morally right about their attitude in the region, and as they've always has the USA standing behind them flexing their muscles, nobody else has really said anything giving them unspoken carte-blanché when defending themselves.
Trouble is that up on the moral high-ground (where the Israeli government planted themselves decades ago), you have to be seen globally to be whiter than white (and unfortunately Israel is far from that), and so massing a huge armed force to destroy the relatively tiny Hezbollah armed wing looks bloodthirsty and punative.
I hope that the current situation just fizzles-out into nothing, but with missiles being lobbed indisciminately back and forth into civilian areas there's no chance of either backing down.
I just hope our friends are okay. We've lost touch with the one in Lebanon, but with the situation as it si there, we don't expect to hear word one way or the other until all this is over.
All that changed in 1970 after the Palestinians, having created a State within a State in Jordan made a violent attempt to overthrow the Jordanian Government in an attempt to take control of the Country and, having failed, were forcibly evicted from Jordan..
But what were a load of Palestinians doing in Jordan in the first place?
Around 700,000 were there because they were evicted from their homes and country to make way for the state of Israel in 1948 and another 300,000 were evicted from their home and country when Israel occupied the West Bank in 67.
Under international law a refugee has the right to return to his homeland when the fighting is over, a right which has been denied by the Israeli government.
This is what the fighting is all about, there are now around 4 million people living in the most squalid conditions denied all rights, denied the right to work, denied the right to own property, denied the right of free movement, denied the right of citizenship.
These people are there because they or their ancestors were moved out to make way for Israel, a country whos population enjoy a large per-capita income, larger than Italy or Spain, larger than some American states. They also enjoy the largest share of American foreign aid of any country in the world as a reward for 60 years of ignoring international laws.
But what were a load of Palestinians doing in Jordan in the first place?
Around 700,000 were there because they were evicted from their homes and country to make way for the state of Israel in 1948 and another 300,000 were evicted from their home and country when Israel occupied the West Bank in 67.
Under international law a refugee has the right to return to his homeland when the fighting is over, a right which has been denied by the Israeli government.
This is what the fighting is all about, there are now around 4 million people living in the most squalid conditions denied all rights, denied the right to work, denied the right to own property, denied the right of free movement, denied the right of citizenship.
These people are there because they or their ancestors were moved out to make way for Israel, a country whos population enjoy a large per-capita income, larger than Italy or Spain, larger than some American states. They also enjoy the largest share of American foreign aid of any country in the world as a reward for 60 years of ignoring international laws.Does any of that explain why they decided to try to overthrow the Jordanian Government by an armed uprising? And why did Israel take control of the West Bank in 1967? There must be a reason why they suddenly did that after 20 years, Who was in control of the West Bank proir to 1967?
Does any of that explain why they decided to try to overthrow the Jordanian Government by an armed uprising? And why did Israel take control of the West Bank in 1967? There must be a reason why they suddenly did that after 20 years, Who was in control of the West Bank proir to 1967?
Well once upon a time there was no Hamas, no Hezbollah, no PLO and Arabs and Jews lived side by side peacefully in Palestine.
Then came the Zionists with their terrorist organisations like the Stern Gang and it all followed on from there.
I totaly agree Fred, Zionism is the problem.
Well once upon a time there was no Hamas, no Hezbollah, no PLO and Arabs and Jews lived side by side peacefully in Palestine.
Then came the Zionists with their terrorist organisations like the Stern Gang and it all followed on from there.The Stern Gang, they were Freedom Fighters trying to expel the Imperialist British from the area. Wasn't that why they blew up the King David Hotel?
I would have thought you would have been proud of such Anti-Imperialist heroes.
The following is from the History Learning site.
In May 1948, Israel became an independent state after Israel was recognised by the United Nations as a country in its own right within the Middle East. If relations in pre-war Palestine had been fraught with difficulties, these difficulties paled into insignificance after Israel became a state in its own right. Immediately on being granted its independence, Israel was attacked by a number of Arab nations. If Israel had faltered at this first hurdle, she would have ceased to exist as a state regardless of what the United Nations had decreed.
Israel was attacked on the same day it gained its independence – May 14th. The armies of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Iraq attacked Israel. With such a combined force attacking Israel, few would have given the new country any chance of survival.
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/israel_and_the_1948_war.htm
Check the site. The Israelis were no angels but to try to re-write History to invent the myth that they are to blame for everything just does not bear scrutiny
And we are now aiding and abetting Israel in their slaughter of Lebanese civilians???? It seems Tony Blairco has no qualms over letting America fly in their shipment of 2 cargo planes filled with GBU 28 laser-guided bombs into Prestwick Airport over this past weekend. I am absolutely appalled but, not surprised. I suppose if we do nothing.. we support it.:(
photos from Lebanon...
http://stopdestroyinglebanon.com/WarOnLebanon/nfblog/?page_id=3
Israel was attacked on the same day it gained its independence – May 14th. The armies of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Iraq attacked Israel. With such a combined force attacking Israel, few would have given the new country any chance of survival.
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/israel_and_the_1948_war.htm
Check the site. The Israelis were no angels but to try to re-write History to invent the myth that they are to blame for everything just does not bear scrutiny
The site is a load of rubbish just like the history books that say Hezbollah attacked Israel this time will be a load of rubbish.
"Before the end of the mandate and, therefore before any possible
intervention by Arab states, the Jews, taking advantage of their
superior military preparation and organization, had occupied...most of
the Arab cities in Palestine before May 15, 1948. Tiberias was occupied
on April 19, 1948, Haifa on April 22, Jaffa on April 28, the Arab
quarters in the New City of Jerusalem on April 30, Beisan on May 8,
Safad on May 10 and Acre on May 14, 1948...In contrast, the Palestine
Arabs did not seize any of the territories reserved for the Jewish state
under the partition resolution."
Henry Cattan, "Palestine, The Arabs and Israel."
"Menahem Begin, the Leader of the Irgun, tells how 'in Jerusalem, as
elsewhere, we were the first to pass from the defensive to the
offensive...Arabs began to flee in terror...Hagana was carrying out
successful attacks on other fronts, while all the Jewish forces
proceeded to advance through Haifa like a knife through butter'...The
Israelis now allege that the Palestine war began with the entry of the
Arab armies into Palestine after 15 May 1948. But that was the second
phase of the war; they overlook the massacres, expulsions and
dispossessions which took place prior to that date and which
necessitated Arab states' intervention."
Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest."
"For the entire day of April 9, 1948, Irgun and LEHI soldiers carried
out the slaughter in a cold and premeditated fashion...The attackers
'lined men, women and children up against the walls and shot
them,'...The ruthlessness of the attack on Deir Yassin shocked Jewish
and world opinion alike, drove fear and panic into the Arab population,
and led to the flight of unarmed civilians from their homes all over the
country."
Simha Flapan, "The Birth of Israel."
BTW I just did a search for "USS Liberty" on your History Learning Site and it come up "No pages found".
It is not entirely improbable that the wicked Zionists were behind the World Wars.There is a DVD available in America about the control the Zionists had over Hitler. I now refer to Israel by its proper name: PALESTINE. Israel is an illegal state!
Dreadnought
26-Jul-06, 19:47
The site is a load of rubbish just like the history books that say Hezbollah attacked Israel this time will be a load of rubbish.
BTW I just did a search for "USS Liberty" on your History Learning Site and it come up "No pages found".
http://www.ussliberty.org/
What I find incredible is one of the main reasons used as an excuse for the invasion of Iraq (Operation Iraqi Liberation) was Iraq's repeated dismissal of UN Resolutions. Here is a list of UN Resolutions ignored by Israel:
Resolution 106: "... 'condemns' Israel for Gaza raid"
Resolution 111: "...'condemns' Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people"
Resolution 127: "...'recommends' Israel suspend its 'no-man's zone' in Jerusalem"
Resolution 162: "...'urges' Israel to comply with UN decisions"
Resolution 171: "...determines flagrant violations' by Israel in its attack on Syria"
Resolution 228: "...'censures' Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control"
Resolution 237: "...'urges' Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees"
Resolution 242: "..."affirms" need for Israel to withdraw from illegally occupied territory
Resolution 248: "... 'condemns' Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan"
Resolution 250: "... 'calls' on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem"
Resolution 251: "... 'deeply deplores' Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250"
Resolution 252: "...'declares invalid' Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital"
Resolution 256: "... 'condemns' Israeli raids on Jordan as 'flagrant violation""
Resolution 259: "...'deplores' Israel's refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation"
Resolution 262: "...'condemns' Israel for attack on Beirut airport"
Resolution 265: "... 'condemns' Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan"
Resolution 267: "...'censures' Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem"
Resolution 270: "...'condemns' Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon"
Resolution 271: "...'condemns' Israel's failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem"
Resolution 279: "...'demands' withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon"
Resolution 280: "....'condemns' Israeli's attacks against Lebanon"
Resolution 285: "...'demands' immediate Israeli withdrawal form Lebanon"
Resolution 298: "...'deplores' Israel's changing of the status of Jerusalem"
Resolution 313: "...'demands' that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon"
Resolution 316: "...'condemns' Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon"
Resolution 317: "...'deplores' Israel's refusal to release Arabs abducted in Lebanon"
Resolution 332: "...'condemns' Israel's repeated attacks against Lebanon"
Resolution 337: "...'condemns' Israel for violating Lebanon's sovereignty"
Resolution 347: "...'condemns' Israeli attacks on Lebanon"
Resolution 425: "...'calls' on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon"
Resolution 427: "...'calls' on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon'
Resolution 444: "...'deplores' Israel's lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces"
Resolution 446: "...'determines' that Israeli settlements are a 'serious obstruction' to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention"
Resolution 450: "...'calls' on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon"
Resolution 452: "...'calls' on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories"
Resolution 465: "...'deplores' Israel's settlements and asks all member states not to assist Israel's settlements program"
Resolution 467: "...'strongly deplores' Israel's military intervention in Lebanon"
Resolution 468: "...'calls' on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return"
Resolution 469: "...'strongly deplores' Israel's failure to observe the council's order not to deport Palestinians"
Resolution 471: "... 'expresses deep concern' at Israel's failure to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention"
Resolution 476: "... 'reiterates' that Israel's claims to Jerusalem are 'null and void'"
Resolution 478: "...'censures (Israel) in the strongest terms' for its claim to Jerusalem in its 'Basic Law'"
Resolution 484: "...'declares it imperative' that Israel re-admit two deported Palestinian mayors"
Resolution 487: "...'strongly condemns' Israel for its attack on Iraq's nuclear facility"
Resolution 497: "...'decides' that Israel's annexation of Syria's Golan Heights is 'null and void' and demands that Israel rescind its decision forthwith"
Resolution 498: "...'calls' on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon"
Resolution 501: "...'calls' on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops"
Resolution 509: "...'demands' that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon"
Resolution 515: "...'demands' that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and allow food supplies to be brought in"
Resolution 517: "...'censures' Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon"
Resolution 518: "...'demands' that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon"
Resolution 520: "...'condemns' Israel's attack into West Beirut"
Resolution 573: "...'condemns' Israel 'vigorously' for bombing Tunisia in attack on PLO headquarters
Resolution 587: "...'takes note' of previous calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw"
Resolution 592: "...'strongly deplores' the killing of Palestinian students at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops"
Resolution 605: "...'strongly deplores' Israel's policies and practices denying the human rights of Palestinians
Resolution 607: "...'calls' on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention
Resolution 608: "...'deeply regrets' that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians"
Resolution 636: "...'deeply regrets' Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians
Resolution 641: "...'deplores' Israel's continuing deportation of Palestinians
Resolution 672: "...'condemns' Israel for violence against Palestinians at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount
Resolution 673: "...'deplores' Israel's refusal to cooperate with the United Nations
Resolution 681: "...'deplores' Israel's resumption of the deportation of Palestinians
Resolution 694: "...'deplores' Israel's deportation of Palestinians and calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return
Resolution 726: "...'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of Palestinians
Resolution 799: "...'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of 413 Palestinians and calls for their immediate return.
Whether right or wrong is imaterial. It is the gross hypocrisy of the US and British governments which stinks, more accurately it is the gross hypocrisy of G W Bush and Tony Lewinsky, sorry I mean Monica Blair...
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