Wave and Tidal power in Caithness

[GSP]

Hello Orgers

I am a student studying the effects that wave and tidal power will have on the economy of Caithness. I would be very grateful if you could answer a short survey with your views (5 mins only).
Thanks for your help.

please click on the link for the survey

[/URL][url]http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?hl=en_GB&cfg=true&formkey=dFJBZmFsVkN4VlJ3RVh3QllmZE96Tmc6MQ#gid=0 (http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?hl=en_GB&cfg=true)

[Alice in Blunderland]

Filled in. Good luck. :)

[summer]

Done. Good luck with your study.

[Tubthumper]

Done, hope it helps.

[Green_not_greed]

As a matter of interest, where are you based GSP, and to what use will this data be put? Thanks.

[Bill Fernie]

I have completed your survey. I would encourage as many people as possible to do so.

[seadog]

I have filled in your sheet. Hope you have a good response

[TudorRose]

I have just completed your survey. I hope you have a lot of replies, a worthwhile subject to study. :) Good luck with your Phd.

[Alice in Blunderland]

Any more takers for the survey. It just took a minute :D

[ywindythesecond]

Hello Orgers

I am a student studying the effects that wave and tidal power will have on the economy of Caithness. I would be very grateful if you could answer a short survey with your views (5 mins only).
Thanks for your help.

please click on the link for the survey

http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?hl=en_GB&cfg=true&formkey=dFJBZmFsVkN4VlJ3RVh3QllmZE96Tmc6MQ#gid=0

Best wishes GSP, I tried to complete your survey, but questions 2 and 3 are too imprecise and any result you get from answers to these will be able to be interpreted any way anyone wants.



I guess that so far you have a 100% positive response to Q2 but you did not tell your target audience that there are:

48 onshore wind industrial turbines already constructed in Caithness,
83 more already approved (counting Dunbeath which is as good as approved)
73 more awaiting decision in the planning process
another 66-76 in scoping
I suggest you re-word your survey to reflect the current situation, and perhaps those who have completed it so far might wish to reconsider their responses.
Here are my observations, comment in red, suggested questions in bold black italics:
Q2. Do you think that there is a need for more renewable energy?
More than what? Connected, consented, constructed, proposed? Caithness only? National? Worldwide?
This question presumes that the target respondees are aware of how much renewable energy already is available, how much is consented but not yet connected, and how it fits the generation mix.

· Yes
· No
· Don’t know
Please state your reasons for your answer.


Q 3. Should the following renewable energy sources be developed? (multiple choice)
Where? Caithness only Etc? Developed at all, in moderation, or en masse?
· Wind power (on-shore)
· Wind power (off-shore)
· Biomass power
· Tidal power
· Wave power
· Solar power
· Hydro power
· Geothermal power
· Don’t know
Please state your reasons for your answer.

[Rheghead]

I guess that so far you have a 100% positive response to Q2 but you did not tell your target audience that there are:
[LIST]
48 onshore wind industrial turbines already constructed in Caithness,
83 more already approved (counting Dunbeath which is as good as approved)
73 more awaiting decision in the planning process
another 66-76 in scoping

Perhaps the OP didn't mention it because wind farm proliferation seems to be entering its final endgame in Caithness and as such opposing them is losing its importance whereas tidal and wave are new ventures and the arguments for and against are new unlike with wind which is familiar to many and is often repeated. :confused

[GSP]

Hello all orgers
I logged on today and I have 69 replies already - I am absolutely chuffed. I think I will need around 500 for a representative sample but as I have never done this before, any advice, as always is appreciated.
In response to queries, I live and study in Caithness ( born Caithnessian...never been anywhere else!!!) and love it here.
The data will be used as part of my PhD study which is looking at the socioeconomic benefits that wave and tidal power can hopefully bring to Caithness. This part is looking at the public perceptions that people have at the moment to wave and tidal power in Caithness.
I realise that a lot of the work and opportunities may got to Orkney but I sincerely hope that Caithness its businesses and economy locally can also benefit.
I am hoping to look at public perceptions before (that is now), during installation and after the devices have been here a while to see if public perception changes throughout the process.
Again, I would just like to thank everyone who took the time out to answer the survey and lets all hope that this is something which can help Caithness prosper.

[crichton]

Hi,
will you be posting the results of the survey on the org?

Crichton

[GSP]

Hello

I would be delighted to post the results. This should be around the end of August. I was hoping to leave the survey open for a couple of weeks to try and get the required number of "hits"

Thanks again

[scoofer]

Isn't it about time that Caithness started being more proactive about marine renewable energy before Orkney gets everything?

[Green_not_greed]

Isn't it about time that Caithness started being more proactive about marine renewable energy before Orkney gets everything?

I totally agree. Its a disgrace that Caithness is being left well outside the main discussions on tidal power. Orkney always have been better organised to take advantage of this type of situation.

You'd think that with our rather expensive Caithness Chamber of Commerce that they would be all over it - sadly these amateurs are not. I believe are a complete waste of space only concerned in keeping their own jobs.

They have done nothing for Caithness in the past 2 years. In that time they have had their inflated salaries paid for through Government (NDA, HIE and DSRL) and also require all members to pay a fee, depending on the number of employees they have. At the rate we're going there will be far less contribution from the latter. They do nothing for Caithness.

[Rheghead]

I think the message has got through that Caithness is pretty hostile to renewable energy schemes and that is why we are seeing the luke warm progress on marine technology.

Variability of renewables has been promoted by our local anti wind pressure groups as the main reason for objecting to wind farms. You have mostly seen the evidence for that on here or you can google Caithness and bmreports and just look at national news paper websites for yourselves for the evidence. It doesn't take an Einstein to realise that developers of any renewable energy scheme will be aware that they will face huge local opposition on those grounds. It is obvious that variability equally applies to tidal schemes and as such marine developers are going in preference to other areas.

[Green_not_greed]

I think the message has got through that Caithness is pretty hostile to renewable energy schemes and that is why we are seeing the luke warm progress on marine technology.

Variability of renewables has been promoted by our local anti wind pressure groups as the main reason for objecting to wind farms. You have mostly seen the evidence for that on here or you can google Caithness and bmreports and just look at national news paper websites for yourselves for the evidence. It doesn't take an Einstein to realise that developers of any renewable energy scheme will be aware that they will face huge local opposition on those grounds. It is obvious that variability equally applies to tidal schemes and as such marine developers are going in preference to other areas.

Rheghead

You are wrong. There is a big difference in onshore wind and anything offshore, and tidal is far more predictable than wind. For the record I am 100% behind tidal power in the Firth and also the Beatrice development. They are suitable technologies in the right place, not a political scam which completely ignores the rights and views of the local community who will have to live near on-shore wind.

The main difference between off-shore and on-shore wind is in the number of real business opportunities and jobs which will be created.

The best opportunities for Caithness will be in launching, recovering, maintaining and refitting offshore tidal devices. We simply don't have the facilities to do large scale turbine manufacture, but we can do maintenance and also survey work. There are HUGE opportunities for engineering companies in Caithess and those like Subsea7, JGC and NES are already trying to get things moving. Unfortunately there is absolutely no co-ordination of the project by people who know what they are doing. The whole thing is being run by QUANGOs and civil servants, not professionals who know how to manage large infrastructure projects. Not just that, Orkney's development agency and business development people are light-years ahead of Caithness and have the right ears at Hollyrood. So unless there is a step change Caithness will lose out.

Its nothing to do with public opinion, its all to do with promoting what Caithness engineering businesses can offer to Hollyrood. And how that is being done.

[ducati]

I think the message has got through that Caithness is pretty hostile to renewable energy schemes and that is why we are seeing the luke warm progress on marine technology.

Variability of renewables has been promoted by our local anti wind pressure groups as the main reason for objecting to wind farms. You have mostly seen the evidence for that on here or you can google Caithness and bmreports and just look at national news paper websites for yourselves for the evidence. It doesn't take an Einstein to realise that developers of any renewable energy scheme will be aware that they will face huge local opposition on those grounds. It is obvious that variability equally applies to tidal schemes and as such marine developers are going in preference to other areas.

It doesn't seem to deter the Windfarm developers :confused

[Rheghead]

Rheghead

You are wrong. There is a big difference in onshore wind and anything offshore, and tidal is far more predictable than wind.

Yes that is the popular myth. We know when the tides are years in advance but we don't know how strong they'll be and so I'm afraid to say that there is nothing valuable to the National Grid with tidal that is over and above that of wind with respect to predictability. So objecting to wind on account of predictability will just serve to tar tidal with the same brush in the minds of the general public or those instrumental in opposing to wind farms.

NGT just needs 12 hours to notify back up generation to go from cold standby to 'up and generating' and present wind prediction is sufficient and getting better all the time with more wind proliferation.

Tides are predictable years ahead but it is of no use to NGT. [lol]

[orkneycadian]

There is a big difference in onshore wind and anything offshore, and tidal is far more predictable than wind. For the record I am 100% behind tidal power in the Firth and also the Beatrice development.

Whays your meters saying about onshore wind output vs tidal output from Orkney these days ywindy?

[ywindythesecond]

Whays your meters saying about onshore wind output vs tidal output from Orkney these days ywindy?
I try never to make the same mistake twice Okn. Tell me please, how much tidal output is there in Orkney these days?

[thebigman]

Yes that is the popular myth. We know when the tides are years in advance but we don't know how strong they'll be and so I'm afraid to say that there is nothing valuable to the National Grid with tidal that is over and above that of wind with respect to predictability.

I have tide tables with predict tidal ranges up to the year 2026 so that's not bad for predictability.

[Rheghead]

I have tide tables with predict tidal ranges up to the year 2026 so that's not bad for predictability.

I'm glad you agree about predictibility of tidal. What this means for the National Grid in terms of operations for backing up the tide is that because the tide ebbs and flows almost 4 times per day they must keep the back-up on hot standby in readiness the whole time. The NGY can't retire any fossil fuel generation and capacity credit will be just as low as for wind.

[Kenn]

Am I being denser than usual here as I thought it was possible to generate both on the ebb and the flow of a tide so that would mean set times when generation comes on line.
Another point, what is the tidal time difference between the north and south of these islands? If the time differs by a sufficient amount then surely a system that encompasses the whole coast would enable almost continuous generation.
Another point that makes me ponder is why can't the power be used for local consumption instead of feeding it into a national grid that suffers substanstial wastage?
I would also ask why are there no small turbines proposed on shore as there are a number of rivers and mill races within the county which again could generate sufficient power to serve small rural communties?

[Rheghead]

Am I being denser than usual here as I thought it was possible to generate both on the ebb and the flow of a tide so that would mean set times when generation comes on line.Another point, what is the tidal time difference between the north and south of these islands? If the time differs by a sufficient amount then surely a system that encompasses the whole coast would enable almost continuous generation

You are correct on your point on ebb and flow but only for certain types of tidal generation.

In a theoretical world where we could design our coastline with an evenly distribution of generation sites of all types then yes it could be envisioned that uniform power could be generated. Our coast isn't like that though. Like with wind, wide distribution is good, trouble is, the most feasible areas for development are situated in a few sites, one is up here, the Severn and Morecambe bay and a few minor sites. That will cause an uneven power curve.
.

Another point that makes me ponder is why can't the power be used for local consumption instead of feeding it into a national grid that suffers substanstial wastage?

Preventing waste of energy is always a good thing ,however, as I understand it, modern HVDC powerlines lose about 2% of the energy on a 900km line if that puts things into perspective. So developing an industrial landscape may be good for jobs, it would only serve to create an eyesore for tourists for minimal savings on energy and at 900km Pentland tidal energy is well within distance to Scotland's central belt and north of England where we are accustomed to having heavy industry. However some extra energy is lost through transforming voltages to consumers which happens to all generation even if close by.



I would also ask why are there no small turbines proposed on shore as there are a number of rivers and mill races within the county which again could generate sufficient power to serve small rural communties?

This would seem feasible at a first glance. However, Caithness is largely a lowland area and small hydro requires a large head of water in a small stretch which I think would be very limiting.

[ywindythesecond]

You are correct on your point on ebb and flow but only for certain types of tidal generation.

In a theoretical world where we could design our coastline with an evenly distribution of generation sites of all types then yes it could be envisioned that uniform power could be generated. Our coast isn't like that though. Like with wind, wide distribution is good, trouble is, the most feasible areas for development are situated in a few sites, one is up here, the Severn and Morecambe bay and a few minor sites. That will cause an uneven power curve.
.


Preventing waste of energy is always a good thing ,however, as I understand it, modern HVDC powerlines lose about 2% of the energy on a 900km line if that puts things into perspective. So developing an industrial landscape may be good for jobs, it would only serve to create an eyesore for tourists for minimal savings on energy and at 900km Pentland tidal energy is well within distance to Scotland's central belt and north of England where we are accustomed to having heavy industry. However some extra energy is lost through transforming voltages to consumers which happens to all generation even if close by.




This would seem feasible at a first glance. However, Caithness is largely a lowland area and small hydro requires a large head of water in a small stretch which I think would be very limiting.

I agree with Reggy.

[Kenn]

Thanks for the information.
With regard to onshore small turbines,I was n't thinking of dam type installations, more the turbine screw (think that 's the name,) that has been very successfully employed in old mill races in some parts of the country .

http://www.reuk.co.uk/Electricity-from-Waterwheels.htm