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landmarker
23-Jun-06, 21:33
In a week when a man, a descendant of Sir John Hawkins, close friend of Sir Francis Drake pathetically grovels in chains for forgiveness for the slave trade in West Africa. In a week when the only two black boys in a school in Bristol are cast as monkeys in the school play causing a parental row these two extreme examples of the madness which now permeates everyday life reveal just how hung up Britain, or more especially England is on the issue of race.

Almost every day it gets mentioned and debated in the press & on the radio and this is one of the reasons it is often at the forefront of my more serious thoughts.

It seemed a step too far to apologise once more, when the heck are they going to get over it. Many Africans used slaves themselves and hunted down their cousins for a century and more only to sell them on to white slavers. This was a dreadful chapter in human history but it is now long gone. Britain abolished the slave trade in all the countries it colonised. William Wilberforce -a Brit - was the prime mover in ending the trade altogether.

On what is , surely a lighter note, to cast the only two black boys as the only two monkeys in the school play does seem a little insensitive to say the very least. I'm not winding you up about this story. It was featured prominently on BBC 5 lunchtime news and in the 'Daily Mail in England today.

The last seven days have also seen Trevor Phillips, head of the CRE calling for positive discrimination in the recruitment of Police officers AND in the allotment of University places to ethnic minority students.

Where will it all end?

Rheghead
24-Jun-06, 01:17
For completeness in your rant, you should have included the case of the gay foster couple who were convicted of molesting boys in their care and showing them gay porn. Interestingly, a commentator was quoted as saying it has nothing to do with their sexuality!

Anyway, regarding the complaint regarding the two black boys forced to take monkey parts in a school production, they weren't the only kids playing monkeys, there were 3 others who were white. My take on this, is that the boy's parents have played into the hands of racists instead of rising above it. A man once said he had a dream when white kids and black kids could go to school as equals. And a child should be able to take the part in any play irrespective of his colour. There was no racist connotation on behalf of the school to the casting of these boys so the only people with the problem is with the boy's parents.

JAWS
24-Jun-06, 05:45
I am completely baffled by the sudden mania which seems to have developed for people to run around "apologising" to all and sundry for "wrongs", real or imagined, committed by past generations over which they have absolutely no control whatsoever.

If someone from Normandy came rushing to Lancashire to apologise for the atrocities committed by William, Duke of Normandy or a Norwegian came charging round Caithness apologising for the behaviour of the Vikings my first inclination would be to point them in the direction of a good psychiatrist.

People in by gone ages acted according to the standards and morals of the time they lived in. Yes, by our standards today they behaved abominably but in five hundred years time I have no doubt that people will look on some of the things we do with equal disgust.

Personally, I have no idea if my ancestors were the oppressors or the oppressed. One thing is certain though, I won't lose any sleep worrying about it and I certainly would neither give or expect any apologies for what they did or did not do.

Apologising for something over which you have absolutely no control especially when it is to people who are not directly affected is nothing more than hypocrisy carried out to play to the Gallery.

landmarker
24-Jun-06, 07:57
.

Apologising for something over which you have absolutely no control especially when it is to people who are not directly affected is nothing more than hypocrisy carried out to play to the Gallery.

I wish I had written that.

scotsboy
24-Jun-06, 08:58
I'm with Niall Ferguson on this one - complain, they should be thanking us, the British Empire made the modern World.........it is now being dismantled by lilly livered pinkos.

spurtle
24-Jun-06, 09:03
There was a lovely story a while ago when Robinsons jams had the golliwogs on top of the jars .You used to be able to collect tokens to get different badges of golliwogs doing all different things.It was then seen as offensive and the pictures and the badges were stopped.But in Nigeria there uproar as so many were still collecting their badges so they had to keep those ones with the golliwogs just for the market in Nigeria.

Rheghead
24-Jun-06, 10:04
There was a lovely story a while ago when Robinsons jams had the golliwogs on top of the jars .You used to be able to collect tokens to get different badges of golliwogs doing all different things.It was then seen as offensive and the pictures and the badges were stopped.But in Nigeria there uproar as so many were still collecting their badges so they had to keep those ones with the golliwogs just for the market in Nigeria.

There was uproar here but it didn't make any difference. Thanks for that, I didn't know that bit of historical snippetry.

katarina
24-Jun-06, 10:24
I'm half irish - half scottish. Any english out there who want to appologise to me for (a) the oppression in Ireland, (b) their part in the scottish clearances (I know it was mostly wealthy Scots themselves before you go on at me) And (c) what they did to William Wallace?
Oh, and while I'm at it, Any Campbells want to appologise to the MacDonalds for what they did in Glencoe?

Get over it!!!!!!!

fred
24-Jun-06, 19:31
There was a lovely story a while ago when Robinsons jams had the golliwogs on top of the jars .You used to be able to collect tokens to get different badges of golliwogs doing all different things.It was then seen as offensive and the pictures and the badges were stopped.But in Nigeria there uproar as so many were still collecting their badges so they had to keep those ones with the golliwogs just for the market in Nigeria.

I thought taking the golliwog off jam jars was an act of retaliation when Idi Amin stopped putting a picture of the queen on Ugandas postage stamps.

gleeber
24-Jun-06, 21:44
Here we go again. The white brigade just don't get it. If black people are insulted by their children being portrayed as monkeys, what gives Joe white the authority or experience to condemn them for something he has only experienced on the back of cereal packets?
Should the veterans who were imprisoned by the Japenese "get over it". What about the jews? I could go on but what would Joe White say the sell by date should be?
Healing doesnt end with the generation who suffered the injustice. Wounds heal, but scars remain. Pyhysical pain disappears but who decides when psychological pain should no longer be considered?
Joe White stands on a platform where his is the norm. Anything different is judged from that privelaged position.
I see that discriminatory blindness as a major difficulty in the healing process that modern societies are trying to instigate.
PS. Please forgive me for my rant.:D

unicorn
24-Jun-06, 22:16
Excellent rant gleeber :) maybe it's time some sections of society took their blinkers off and saw that we are all the same regardless of race, religion or creed. Most of these people that they consider beneath them probably contribute a lot more to society and mankind as they have open minds and think without prejudice.

Sandra
25-Jun-06, 00:59
Excellent rant gleeber :) maybe it's time some sections of society took their blinkers off and saw that we are all the same regardless of race, religion or creed. Most of these people that they consider beneath them probably contribute a lot more to society and mankind as they have open minds and think without prejudice.
Here here! or should that be Hear hear!

JAWS
25-Jun-06, 02:21
I wish to offer my sincere and humble apologies for my antient ancestors’ behaviour whilst being involved in the extinction of the Neanderthal Race.

Could anybody with knowledge of the whereabouts of any surviving Neanderthals please inform me so that I can go and prostrate myself before them to expunge the shame cast upon me by my ancestors!

The site below gives details of the demise of the Robertson's Golly.
http://www.gollycorner.co.uk/gollybye.htm
Of the millions of jars they sell they received only around 10 complaints each year.

The campaign to remove the Golly in the 1960s and 1970s on grounds of it being Racist stemmed not from Black Africa but from certain groups supporting the Black Civil Rights Movements in the USA and Britain.

There are several short pieces of information on the history of Gollies on the Victoria and Albert Museums site about the Museum of Childhood.
http://www.vam.ac.uk/moc/collections/teddies/gollies/robertson/index.html

The side panel on the page gives access to other pages about the various images which Gollies portray. Over the last century and a half. At the beginning of the last Century the image varied from Racial Stereotypes from Slavery to successful books depicting the Gollies as the heroes of the stories.

The impression got, which is one I always suspected, is that the image of the Golliwog is purely in the eye of the beholder, be it as a monstrous racial stereotype or as something loving, cuddly and protective.

I certainly know which my Golly was to me when I was small and afraid of the dark, he was, however, backed up by a large rather ferocious toy lion. :eek:

Nello
25-Jun-06, 03:54
And what about the Milky Bar Kid .. a hero who made the world a better place by giving away small choccy bars .. shot down in his prime by Political Correctness .. :lol: ;)

Rheghead
25-Jun-06, 10:37
I wish to offer my sincere and humble apologies for my antient ancestors’ behaviour whilst being involved in the extinction of the Neanderthal Race.

There is no need to apologise. They interbred with modern humans 30,000 years ago so they went extinct the nice way.


And what about the Milky Bar Kid .. a hero who made the world a better place by giving away small choccy bars .. shot down in his prime by Political Correctness .. :lol: ;)

What is politically incorrect about the milky bar kid?

Ann
25-Jun-06, 10:58
"The impression got, which is one I always suspected, is that the image of the Golliwog is purely in the eye of the beholder, be it as a monstrous racial stereotype or as something loving, cuddly and protective."

To me a golly was a golly; just a cuddly golly. Just as teddybears are just teddybears; another cuddly toy.

JAWS
25-Jun-06, 20:57
There is no need to apologise. They interbred with modern humans 30,000 years ago so they went extinct the nice way.Ah, now I know which side of the Family Tree I descended from!
Never mind, one day I will find a way to join the latest fad for grovelling to somebody about some wrong, real or invented, so I will be able to parade myself to the World as a Born Again Trendy Civilised Human Being, no matter how hypocritical the whole idea may be may be.

Nello
25-Jun-06, 21:55
What is politically incorrect about the milky bar kid?[/quote]

I never said The Milky Bar Kid was Politically Incorrect .. I said he was .. "shot down in his prime by Political Correctness"

There was a story years ago about a child who was not allowed to audition to be the New Milky Bar Kid .. The mother claimed it was discrimination even though Nestle said it was important that the Milky Bar Kid was white .. by now you will probably have guessed that the child in question was Black. The Milky Bar Adverts disappeared shortly after that.

Posted to show the lunacy that some people will go to .. :lol: :cool:

pultneytooner
25-Jun-06, 22:45
Here we go again. The white brigade just don't get it. If black people are insulted by their children being portrayed as monkeys, what gives Joe white the authority or experience to condemn them for something he has only experienced on the back of cereal packets?
Should the veterans who were imprisoned by the Japenese "get over it". What about the jews? I could go on but what would Joe White say the sell by date should be?
Healing doesnt end with the generation who suffered the injustice. Wounds heal, but scars remain. Pyhysical pain disappears but who decides when psychological pain should no longer be considered?
Joe White stands on a platform where his is the norm. Anything different is judged from that privelaged position.
I see that discriminatory blindness as a major difficulty in the healing process that modern societies are trying to instigate.
PS. Please forgive me for my rant.:D Well, this all depoends on whether the teachers cast these kids as monkeys just to take the mickey out off them, I doubt that very much!
The problem lies with the offended, they are the ones that cause the most problems!!!

golach
25-Jun-06, 23:16
The problem lies with the offended, they are the ones that cause the most problems!!!
I could not agree with you more, who are these so called offended???

JAWS
26-Jun-06, 16:49
Should the veterans who were imprisoned by the Japenese "get over it". Healing doesnt end with the generation who suffered the injustice. Wounds heal, but scars remain. Pyhysical pain disappears but who decides when psychological pain should no longer be considered?
Joe White stands on a platform where his is the norm. Anything different is judged from that privelaged position.
I see that discriminatory blindness as a major difficulty in the healing process that modern societies are trying to instigate.
PS. Please forgive me for my rant.:DMost of the parents of the children I grew up with had spent many years in Japanese Prisoner of War Camps, they were the lucky ones who survived. Yes they had a particular dislike, (to put it mildly) of the Japanese because of what had happened to them and their friends.

At no stage did any of them try to instil in me a dislike of the Japanese and, to my knowledge at least, did they do so with their own children either. I certainly don't have any recall of anything "anti-Japanese" being noticeable amongst my childhood friends and I certainly didn't develop any such feelings.
Had they wanted to them I'm sure they could have warped our young minds into feeling a hatred of "their oppressors" but they obviously realised that it would serve no useful purpose to indoctrinate the next generation in that way. Yes, some of them spoke about it to us but only as entertaining little anecdotes. From their stories you would have thought they had been at a Holiday Camp. It was only when I had grown up that I learned the background and that some of what appeared at the time to have been to amuse themselves was actually a matter of life and death, but they didn’t teach us that.

Yes, hatred can be passed down the generations but only if previous generations have insisted on keeping it alive. If one generation refuses to pass the hatred on then it soon dies, if not then it persists for ever until a time comes when a generation arises that says, “Yes, it’s important to remember as part of our history but it has no effect on what we are now.”

Saying that I judge things in a certain way simply because I am White is also a form of stereotyping on racial grounds and as far as I am concerned is no different than making the same racist generalisation about any other race. It makes the assumption that, because I am white, I will react, think and behave in a certain way.

Racism takes many forms and it is so easy to inadvertently make Racist comments without realising how unintentionally offensive they can be.

squidge
26-Jun-06, 17:27
The impression got, which is one I always suspected, is that the image of the Golliwog is purely in the eye of the beholder, be it as a monstrous racial stereotype or as something loving, cuddly and protective.

I certainly know which my Golly was to me when I was small and afraid of the dark, he was, however, backed up by a large rather ferocious toy lion. :eek:

But isnt that cos you were looking at the Golliwog from a white british viewpoint not a black american living under segregation?

The idea that a teacher would not recognise the issues around two black children playing monkeys in a school play as sensitive to say the least amazes me. Whether its right or worng it has the power to offend people and he/she should at the very least have considered it and been prepared to justify and explain why the children were chosen for that role - did she decide? did she ask the children? did she put names in a hat? did she even think about the fact that it might be offensive to the parent s or other black people? if not why not?

WE cant decide whether a person is right to be offended unless we can walk a mile in their shoes. When you or me have been subjected to name calling and had monkey written in big letters on a sheet of paper and pinned on our backs at school as happened to a mixed race boy i knew; when we have had "paki go home" daubed across our door and our windows put through then we can perhaps say that people are being stupid to be offended - until then we should try to imagine what that would be like and it might make us a little bit more understanding

JAWS
26-Jun-06, 17:29
I could not agree with you more, who are these so called offended???
The type of person who, according to a radio discussion, was insisting that “Ship Shape and Bristol Fashion” and “Getting Down to the Nitty Gritty” were racist comments and as such should be banned.
“Ship Shape and Bristol Fashion”, he had insisted was a reference to ships from Bristol being involved in the Slave Trade.
“Getting Down to the Nitty Gritty” was a reference to the Slaves transported in the bilges of the sailing ships which were the filthiest place on the ship. The Slaves kept there, because of the filthy, louse ridden state were referred to in that manner by the people unloading the ship. .

An eminent Professor with knowledge of the origins of language, (I can’t remember the correct word for such expertise) was asked about this. He state that he had never coma across any other explanation for the reference to Bristol Fashion other than it’s usage as a compliment about the quality of the way ships from Bristol were maintained and run and had never come across it being used in reference to the Slave Trade.
The earliest reference he could find about the term Nitty Gritty having been used was in the 1950s.

I have been, and I’m sure somebody will correct me if I am in error, unable to find and mention of a square-rigger sailing from Britain to Africa to transport Slaves across the Atlantic at any time during the 1950s or indeed any subsequent date.

It is people who are willing to find offence by twisting things to such an extent who are “The Offended”. Such people are so intent of “discovering” racist comments that they will “create” them simply for the sake of complaining about them.

Racism is wrong and should not be tolerated but people who resort to inventing it where none exists do nothing to prevent it and in many ways can make genuine complaints where racism does genuinely exist appear to be as simply silly and trivial as the nonsense they have invented.

I would suggest that the phrase, “Crying Wolf” would apply to those who stoop to such silly inventions when it comes to “Offensive Racist Comments”.
They are so determined to “be offended” that they will invent ways of being so and simply detract from the seriousness of genuine complaints.

changilass
26-Jun-06, 17:40
But isnt that cos you were looking at the Golliwog from a white british viewpoint not a black american living under segregation?

The idea that a teacher would not recognise the issues around two black children playing monkeys in a school play as sensitive to say the least amazes me. Whether its right or worng it has the power to offend people and he/she should at the very least have considered it and been prepared to justify and explain why the children were chosen for that role - did she decide? did she ask the children? did she put names in a hat? did she even think about the fact that it might be offensive to the parent s or other black people? if not why not?

WE cant decide whether a person is right to be offended unless we can walk a mile in their shoes. When you or me have been subjected to name calling and had monkey written in big letters on a sheet of paper and pinned on our backs at school as happened to a mixed race boy i knew; when we have had "paki go home" daubed across our door and our windows put through then we can perhaps say that people are being stupid to be offended - until then we should try to imagine what that would be like and it might make us a little bit more understanding


As Rheghead has already stated, it wasn't just 2 kids who were monkeys it was 5 in total. Do the 'white' kids have to play all the monkeys just to stop people shouting 'raicist'. Would it not be raicist if all the monkeys were 'white'. What causes problems is making people stand out as different. I think the teacher was right on this occasion, to NOT exclude the 'black' kids.

scotsboy
26-Jun-06, 18:40
Squidge wrote:


But isnt that cos you were looking at the Golliwog from a white british viewpoint not a black american living under segregation?

I'm pretty sure the black americans ate peanut butter and their jelly wasn't made by Robinsons.
On the subject of Golliwogs, I bought one last December from a wee shop on Loch Lomand.....just because I could, and it might offend someone:)

connieb19
26-Jun-06, 18:45
Squidge wrote:


I'm pretty sure the black americans ate peanut butter and their jelly wasn't made by Robinsons.
On the subject of Golliwogs, I bought one last December from a wee shop on Loch Lomand.....just because I could, and it might offend someone:)They sell Golliwogs at the filling station at the Skiach, I bought one short ago just because I havn't seen them in years..:)

landmarker
26-Jun-06, 18:46
I'd have volunteered to be a monkey anyway when I was a kid. Just to be different. I also looked vaguely like a chimpanzee when I was eight.

scotsboy
26-Jun-06, 19:10
Did you know the "Little Black Sambo" books were written by the daughter of a Scottish Minister. The whole picaniny caricature thing looks crass, but then aren't cartoons/caricatures meant to exaggerate and emphaisise?

golach
26-Jun-06, 19:21
“Ship Shape and Bristol Fashion”
Sorry to be pedantic, but I have just refered to my copy of "Sailors Word Book, a dictionary of Nautical Terms", written by Admiral W H Smythe first published in 1867 Quote " Bristol fashion and ship shape" is said about Bristol when it was in its palmy commercial days, unannoyed by Liverpool, and its shipping was all in proper and good order Unquote. No reference to the Slave trade

obiron
26-Jun-06, 19:26
They sell Golliwogs at the filling station at the Skiach, I bought one short ago just because I havn't seen them in years..:)

my oldest got one years ago in a sale of work in the assembly rooms. he loved it and so did the youngest. he went everywhere with it. still in the house somewhere dont think they will part wi it..

JAWS
26-Jun-06, 20:13
Sorry to be pedantic, but I have just refered to my copy of "Sailors Word Book, a dictionary of Nautical Terms", written by Admiral W H Smythe first published in 1867 Quote " Bristol fashion and ship shape" is said about Bristol when it was in its palmy commercial days, unannoyed by Liverpool, and its shipping was all in proper and good order Unquote. No reference to the Slave tradeI am aware of the correct interpretation of the phrase but it would appear that a book had been published at some stage within the last twelve months or so in which the author had made the claim that it was a reference to Bristol and it's involvement in the Slave Trade.

That was the point I was making. A part of the language which has been in use for Centuries with no connection to the Slave Trade whatsoever was being re-invented, by a great leap of imagination, as being Racist in it's meaning.

It is that sort of inventive interpretation and crass stupidity which tends to make a laughing-stock of something which, when the complaint is genuine, is a very serious matter.

I would think that everybody can think of occasions where such silly behaviour had created a great deal of totally unnecessary irritation.

It does nothing whatsoever to help solve the problem of Racism and simply feeds the beliefs of those who are inclined towards it. They are simply pouring petrol on the fire which they are so insistent they are intent on extinguishing.

I often wonder if their intention is to perpetuate the problem in order that they can keep themselves in the position of being so visually against it in order to feed their own egos.

brokencross
26-Jun-06, 21:05
Our modern day banks "made" a lot money from their links to the slave trade, Barings, Barclays, Bank of England.

Here are a couple of selected quotes from a BBC web item of 30 March 2004

"Descendants of black American slaves are suing London's oldest insurance firm, Lloyd's of London, for compensation for allegedly underwriting the ships used in the slave trade. The case will throw a strange light on one of the atrocities of modern times."
"Reparations?
One American insurance company, Aetna, has apologised for its involvement in slavery.
But the apology hasn't led to reparations. The American courts have taken the view that past servitude doesn't mean a present hurt for the descendants.
In the case of Lloyd's of London, the plaintiffs say they have proof through DNA that they are related to particular slaves who were insured there. And they add the crucial - but contended - point that they continue to suffer."

"Ed Fagan acted for descendants of the victims of the Nazi death camps and secured $1.25 billion in reparation from Swiss banks that received some of the confiscated property.

"Lloyd's knew that what they were doing led to the destruction of the indigenous population," Mr Fagan said. "Why is it too far fetched to say that blacks should be entitled to compensation for damages and genocide committed against them, when every other people in the world... that has been victimised in this way has been entitled to compensation?"

It will be a good court argument. But a judge will need convincing that the pains of the slaves of two centuries ago are still being felt so much by their descendants that they merit many millions of dollars in reparations.

Just how far can you go back in time, especially with financial reparation?

this is worth a read:
http://www.antislavery.org/breakingthesilence/slave_routes/slave_routes_unitedkingdom.shtml

pultneytooner
26-Jun-06, 22:10
Scientific theory postulates that Africa is the cradle of civilization, and we all share a common DNA ancestry. We are cross fertile so we are all the same species. Migration and natural selection altered our physical appearance, and tribal or cultural or religious differences caused a history of violence that persists today. (e.g. Rwanda, Baltics, North and South Vietnam, Korea, Muslims vs. Christians and even the U.S. civil war). Racism is slowly being legislated out of existence, or at least the violent expressions of it, but only in lawful societies. I guess this is progress.

JAWS
26-Jun-06, 23:45
Fine, brokencross, we will see what the final results are. If they are successful will I then be able to sue the Citizens of Rome who still enjoy the benefits of enslaving my people 2000 years ago? Perhaps I can then go on and sue the Scandinavians for the benefits they gained from the Viking Raids and the people of Normandy for the atrocities committed in the North of England when the only description which fitted was that it was "laid waste" to such an extent that most of it is unaccounted for in Domesday Book because there was nothing left for Duke William's Tax Gatherers to Tax?

To bring things to more recent happenings will I be able to sue the Highlanders because in 1842 the 72nd Highlanders. (The Duke of Albany's Own Highlanders - nicknamed 'The Wild Macraes' because of their uncertain temperament - And later to become The Seaforth Highlanders and is now The Highlanders.) opened fire on an unarmed crowd in Lune Street Preston killing four people and wounding others. Not to mention Robert de Brus burning the town down in 1322/3.
Where do I go to find somebody to offer a grovelling apology for those wrongs, anybody want to volunteer?

More to the point, does anybody know of anywhere, with the possible exception of Antarctica, which has never suffered any oppression or has some reason to have a grievance should they be so inclined?

Pultneytooner, unfortunately Racism is not being legislated out of existence all that has happened is that it has been legislated out of sight. You cannot legislate any belief out of existence. All you have to do to see that to be true is to look at how many times in the past there have been attempts to legislate different Religions out of existence. The only time that has been even close to success has been by the use of wholesale slaughter as carried out in South America and even then it did not succeed because there are still some of the indigenous population who either continue with the old ways or have incorporated them into a different belief system.

The only way of stopping any belief is to convince people that there is a better way of doing things and by convincing them that their way solves nothing.
You cannot force people to stop believing something, you can only persuade them to change their beliefs.
Trying to force people to alter their beliefs by legislation may appear to work but all it actually does is hide the problem until such time as circumstances allow it to give full vent to it’s pent up fury. It is just like hammering the safety valve down on a boiler, it works for a certain length of time but not forever.

I hope the day does come when such ideas are cast into the Dustbin of History but I fear, unfortunately, that we are a long way from that coming to pass.

(I know, I know. We did our fair share of putting the boot in as well. My lot were at Flodden under Lord Stanley so I suppose it would be only fair to say you were only getting your own back.) :)

Rheghead
27-Jun-06, 01:40
WE cant decide whether a person is right to be offended unless we can walk a mile in their shoes. When you or me have been subjected to name calling and had monkey written in big letters on a sheet of paper and pinned on our backs at school as happened to a mixed race boy i knew; when we have had "paki go home" daubed across our door and our windows put through then we can perhaps say that people are being stupid to be offended - until then we should try to imagine what that would be like and it might make us a little bit more understanding

I understand your viewpoint and I realise that there is some merit in what you are trying to say. But my viewpoint is more fundamental to the problem. First of all, I listened to one of the boy's mothers on Radio 5 and she was more bothered about the connotations because of racist taunts and monkey noises that are/were made at football matches. On a fundamental level, I take this view, are we as a civilised society going to let thugs and racists dictate the innocent goings on in our schools? To cowtow to these idiots would be a serious misjudgement and we would be allowing a unsavorable minority direct the lives of our youngsters. Racists are nothing in my eyes and the only way to deal with them is to tackle them head on, not this way surely? If I was watching the play, I would just see a group of kids having fun like any normal person. If there was any racists in the audience then they are going to see racist connotations whatever we do. It is not the job of parents to be the thought police of a minority, it is the job of the police to deal with open displays of racist behavior though.[disgust]

squidge
27-Jun-06, 12:02
If I was watching the play, I would just see a group of kids having fun like any normal person. If there was any racists in the audience then they are going to see racist connotations whatever we do. It is not the job of parents to be the thought police of a minority, it is the job of the police to deal with open displays of racist behavior though.[disgust]

BUt you are watching it from your background not from the background of having been teased and taunted as a black kid in a school when you were a child.

The fact that the parents were offended is not for you to say they are wrong because you dont share or understand their experiences.

JAWS
27-Jun-06, 12:16
BUt you are watching it from your background not from the background of having been teased and taunted as a black kid in a school when you were a child.

The fact that the parents were offended is not for you to say they are wrong because you dont share or understand their experiences.
Kids teasing and taunting one another at school has always gone on. Specky-four eyes, ginger-nut, shorty, lofty, in fact any difference they can find. None of those kids can change their appearance either.
I'm not saying racial taunting is right but to say that people don't understand because they are white is not necessarily true.

Rheghead
27-Jun-06, 12:22
BUt you are watching it from your background not from the background of having been teased and taunted as a black kid in a school when you were a child.

The fact that the parents were offended is not for you to say they are wrong because you dont share or understand their experiences.

Wrong. There were many mixed race and black callers on the programme who agreed that the parents had gone too far.

squidge
27-Jun-06, 13:53
Wrong. There were many mixed race and black callers on the programme who agreed that the parents had gone too far.

Im not wrong. I was talking about you and to be honest about me and the white teacher. I wouldnt dream of telling a Black person that they were being ridiculous to be sensitive about golliwogs or the portrayal of a monkey by a black child, in the same way i would not suggest a german person is ridiculous to be sensitive about them being portrayed as nazis. I dont know how they feel about it and therefore i wouldnt make an assumption that they are ok about it.

If in doubt ask. the teacher should have had enough nouse about her - especially in a school with a significant proportion of children from ethnic monorities - to know that it is potentially an issue. If the children chose the role themselves then a letter home telling every parent what their child had chosen to be and asking if they are able to provide costumes or had any problems with this might have been maybe a sensible thing to do. If the children were allocated a role - and we have all seen these things work the best roles get a glut of volunteers and the little roles are dished out - then what was she thinking about.

I am not suggesting the teacher was a racist - i AM however suggesting she was a naive and didnt think about the potential offense and that was silly.

katarina
27-Jun-06, 14:09
What is politically incorrect about the milky bar kid?

I never said The Milky Bar Kid was Politically Incorrect .. I said he was .. "shot down in his prime by Political Correctness"

There was a story years ago about a child who was not allowed to audition to be the New Milky Bar Kid .. The mother claimed it was discrimination even though Nestle said it was important that the Milky Bar Kid was white .. by now you will probably have guessed that the child in question was Black. The Milky Bar Adverts disappeared shortly after that.

Posted to show the lunacy that some people will go to .. :lol: :cool:[/QUOTE]

I remember that! Nestle claimed, not only had the child to be white, it had to be a blond haired boy - thus discriminating against not just blacks, but girls and boys with different hair colours. The mother created quite a stink. Absolutely ridiculous!
If five kids played the part of monkeys, and two of them were black - maybe the kids really wanted to be in the play and no other roll could be found for them. If they did not get a part at all, would the mothers have a different complaint? Could be they were chosen on ability - nothing else. And as a child I never even associated gollies with black people - to me they were just a cuddly toy.

katarina
27-Jun-06, 14:20
As Rheghead has already stated, it wasn't just 2 kids who were monkeys it was 5 in total. Do the 'white' kids have to play all the monkeys just to stop people shouting 'raicist'. Would it not be raicist if all the monkeys were 'white'. What causes problems is making people stand out as different. I think the teacher was right on this occasion, to NOT exclude the 'black' kids.

I agree. the fact that the teacher did not stop to think about the consequences just shows how un-racist she was. Obviously she saw no connection between monkeys and the kids.
I would say it is far more racist to make the black kids stand out by only allowing them to act in specified roles.
Undoubtedly the other kids thought nothing about it either, until the parents stepped in - but now - these poor kids will be forever 'different'

JAWS
28-Jun-06, 00:17
I agree. the fact that the teacher did not stop to think about the consequences just shows how un-racist she was. Obviously she saw no connection between monkeys and the kids.
I would say it is far more racist to make the black kids stand out by only allowing them to act in specified roles.
Undoubtedly the other kids thought nothing about it either, until the parents stepped in - but now - these poor kids will be forever 'different'
It is also quite possible that the other kids in the class and possibly the school have had a racial connection thrust upon them which they may never otherwise have made.

pultneytooner
28-Jun-06, 17:59
Seemingly there are approximately six basic emotions that we express through our face: happiness, sadness, anger, disgust, surprise and fear.
No matter what culture you are from, whether New Guinea, China, Africa, or France, these facial expressions are universal.
Even though cultural differences still exist, the fact that we all express emotion similarly is one more reason to celebrate the similarities and not the differences between people.

Rheghead
28-Jun-06, 18:11
It is also quite possible that the other kids in the class and possibly the school have had a racial connection thrust upon them which they may never otherwise have made.

or wanted...